Talk:Mandalorian Wars

Notable figures
Why are the Jedi Masters (Zhar Lestin, Vrook Lamar etc.) listed as "Notable figures"? They didn't participate in the Wars, moreover, they restrained other Jedi from doing so. - Sikon [ Talk ] 04:52, 31 Oct 2005 (UTC)

3965 BBY?
Is it? Master Dorak (in 3956 BBY) said that the Mandalorians invaded the Republic seven years previously. Or am I mistaken? (195.92.168.175 15:55, 27 January 2006 (UTC))
 * You're right. The Mandalorian Wars started in 3963 NOT 3965 BBY according to Dorak. This article and the timeline have to be corrected. In fact, the timeline is doubly wrong because Dorak said that the Mandalorians started invading worlds outside the Republic 20 years ago (ie. 20 years before 3956) which means the true date for that event would be 3976 NOT 3983 BBY.--Sentry 05:49, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Thought so. That said, in the Knights of the Old Republic comic series, beginning in 3964 BBY, the Mandalorian Wars are already underway. *Groan* (Ulicus 12:56, 6 March 2006 (UTC))
 * Really? Its actually mentioned that the war had started? Where did the author get his info? Even Chronicles of the Old Republic has the date set properly...--Sentry 05:48, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Opening stuff: The events of this story take place approximately 3,964 years before the Battle of Yavin and also "It is a time of upheaval for he galaxy.... the Mandalorian Wars have strained the OLD REPUBLIC's resources to the breaking point." Seems pretty stupid to me... I'm also getting a rather nasty feeling from interviews that the writer thinks that romantic relationships are A-Ok for Jedi in this era... when it's clear that it's after the Great Sith War that the "don't love" rule gets brought in. Gah!(Ulicus 21:37, 7 March 2006 (UTC))

References:

"I will begin 40 years ago with the war of Exar Kun."

- Dorak

"Twenty years ago the Mandalorians, aware the Republic was in a weakened state, began conquering small worlds on the Outer Rim. They were careful to choose only planets outside the Republic's jurisdiction."

- Dorak

"The Mandalorians stockpiled resources from their conquered worlds, preparing for a massive assault. Seven years ago they launched a simultaneous attack in three seperate sectors of Republic space"

- Dorak

--Sentry 05:48, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
 * KOTOR I's depictions of the Mandalorian Wars have already been trashed by KOTOR II, which completely changed the opening of the war. Instead of the war beginning with an invasion of three sectors of Republic space in the Outer Rim, it began with an attack on a single world in the Inner Rim. Kuralyov 03:23, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Do you have quotes for that? I know for a fact that Canderous repeats the same old invasion through three adjacent quadrants bit during converstions in the sequel... Unless you are speaking about Onderon, which I believe was the very first world attacked before the general invasion began...--Sentry 03:37, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
 * The 'different openings' are reconcilable, it just takes a bit of thought. I'll agree that the KotOR 2 staff did not *always* seem to do their homework in regard to the first game very well.


 * Then again, the KotOR 1 staff didn't pay attention to a lot of the EU (which I thought was one of the things that made KotOR 1 so good...), except for the occasional name drop, whereas KotOR 2 did. So I guess it balances out, though it's still pretty frustrating. (Ulicus 00:11, 20 May 2006 (UTC))


 * That made me sound like I didn't like the job Obsidian did on the game at all. Overall, I did, the stuff I touch on above doesn't really bother me that much. If only LucasArts hadn't rushed it out of the door!(195.92.168.168 01:31, 28 May 2006 (UTC))

Expansion and cleanup
I am planning to do some major work on this article (much like the major rewrite I did for the Jedi Civil War months ago) in the next few weeks, but I thought I should start a discussion about some of the many controversial issues involved before I begin.

The most difficult problem in this article is the dating. As I have established above, the correct date for the beginning of the Mandalorian Wars is 3,963 BBY according to both KOTOR and the Chronicles of the Old Republic. Of course, that date got blasted to hell by the new comic book series which takes place in 3964. Sooo, we have got to come to some sort of consensus about when the wars began. Contributors keep adding random dates such as 3,966 and 3,965, but they are obviously pure conjecture and, therefore, not terribly encyclopedic. At the moment, the article states that the Wars took place during the entire period from 3,976 to 3,960 BBY. I don't necessarily have a problem with that since it solves a lot of issues, but it isn't really supported by any evidence whatsoever... Thoughts?--Sentry 03:20, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
 * From what i have concluded. The Jedi got involved in 3,963 BBY thus my orignal arguments for that date. I then agreed that the Mandalorians may well have invaded in 3,966-3,965 BBY (who said they cant invade over the New Year period), it is entirely possible that the dating for 3,976 BBY could well have been when the Mandalorians started conquering the Outer rim worlds before the invaded the Republic. Jasca Ducato 08:12, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Errors in battle articles
I have done an aweful lot of research lately for this article and I have found some issues with the battle articles:


 * The problem with the Battle of Serreco is that its position in the timeline is incorrect. Atton Rand states that the Exile took part in that battle, so it must have occured after the Battle of Cathar.--Sentry 20:46, 19 May 2006 (UTC)


 * The problem with the Battle of Iridonia is that, to my knowledge, it never happened. According to Bao Dur, the mandalorians conquered Iridonian colonies on the outer rim. That is why he and other Zabraks joined the war... Unless this information is contradicted by the NEC (I only own the old version and I can't recall), the entire battle is fanon.--Sentry 20:46, 19 May 2006 (UTC)


 * The problem with the Second Battle of Althir is that its position in the timeline is incorrect. According to the NEC, the battle was one of the very last of the war and since it took place outside the Republic's borders, I would place it directly before the Battle of Malachor V.--Sentry 20:46, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Yet, strangely, their articles are dated quite confidently (probably an artifact of those darn succession boxes). Either those entirely conjectural dates should be removed or a fanon warning should be placed in their 'Behind the scenes' sections...--Sentry 20:46, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
 * And lastly, we have to figure out what to do with the dates for several of the battles. None of the battles listed below are explicitly dated in any source and most of them are not described well enough to implicitly date them:
 * Battle of Serroco
 * Battle of Cathar
 * First Battle of Taris
 * Battle of Dagary Minor
 * Battle of Eres III
 * Battle of Duro
 * You know, the problems with the starting dates for the war could be solved pretty easily if we just took Dorak to be rounding down/up/whatever to 40 when he said "40 years ago", as opposed to specifically meaning "forty years ago". I'd be quite happy saying, "Oh it happened a decade ago" to refer to things that actually happened nine, eleven or twelve years ago. It would also fix the errors with the KotOR comics being set during 3964, yet the Mandalorians having already invaded the Republic. What do people think? There aren't ever any references to the actual *years* in the game beyond "four thousand years before the Galactic Empire". (Ulicus 17:43, 22 May 2006 (UTC))
 * Yes, except that most everything is precisely dated in the Chronicles based on Dorak's words that I quoted above and, like it or not, the chronicles are an official source.--Sentry 20:08, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Oh, don't worry, I'm not seriously suggesting that we start changing the article and dates about yet, because "forty years ago" as Dorak said IS (so far) the canon, and so 3956 BBY IS the canon 'year' for KotoR. Considering the comics however - which are much more official than the crap in the Chronicles, which read like they were written by a monkey on crack who knew nothing about the Expanded Universe - I think we're soon going to find that Dorak's "forty years ago" was indeed rounded to the nearest ten or something. All in all I think this article is pretty good - especially to look at... I love the main picture(Ulicus 16:58, 23 May 2006 (UTC))
 * haha, ya, I really don't know what those LucasArts writers where smoking when they wrote the Chronicles, but its obvious that it didn't recieve enough editorial attention...--Sentry 21:47, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Aftermath Section
I was playing through KotOR II again when this cropped up:

Master Kavar: ''You have to understand that it was a time of great uncertainly. We just learned that Darth Revan was back with an armada.''

This was referring to the Exile's trial, and with Kavar trying to explain why the Council took the course that they did. Therefore, it would seem that the Exile presented himself to the council *after* Revan's return, not straight after Malachor V. As it stands, the article implies otherwise. Does anyone have any problems with changing this?

How about sticking a full stop (period) after "to reject the dark side." Then taking the rest of what followed and sticking it after "So began the Jedi Civil War..." so we have a new paragraph beginning with something along the lines of: "It was at this time that the Jedi general who had lost his connection to the Force chose to return to the Jedi Council on Coruscant. Upon arrival... (continue as before)"

Thoughts? (195.92.168.173 16:47, 28 May 2006 (UTC)) --- Yeah, there are plenty of holes in the plot when it comes to what the Exile remembers. For example, you can see the hologram of Bastila and be like "Uh, who was that?" yet in the Korriban vision, it's clear that you know who Bastila is. If the JCW is just beginning, it does make the stuff the Jedi Council say whilst in session make a bit more sense - since they talk of Revan as being on "a front".
 * Really? Other sources imply otherwise. If Kavar's statement was correct, how did the Exile not know anything about the Jedi Civil War? Oh well, I guess that I'll rewrite a little of that section to make it even more vague.--Sentry 21:44, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

It doesn't mesh particularly well with the Exile having to ask Atton/Kreia about the stuff that's going on - but the Exile *does* have rudimentary knowledge of the conflict if you so choose "I was under the impression that... blah blah", etc etc. I think it's fair to say that she/he knows that there is a war going on - but doesn't pay much attention to it. Or something.

Another example is when you talk to Handmaiden - one of the options is, "I was tempted to go to war against the Jedi, but I didn't", this again implies that the Exile had at least a basic understanding of what was going on.

Whatever, I don't know. Despite its flashes of excellence, KotOR 2's overall plot is a bit of a mess in the way it's put together. (195.92.168.173 00:08, 29 May 2006 (UTC)) Gah. My logging in has fallen by the wayside recently. (Ulicus 00:10, 29 May 2006 (UTC))
 * One last thing: as of my most recent playthrough (I've forgotten most others) Kavar's statement is the *only* one that specifies *exactly* when the Exile stands 'trial'. Everything else is always just "after the Mandalorian Wars" - which could, in theory, be any time between the MWs and K2 (though from the context, it's obviously not *too* long after). (Ulicus 00:25, 29 May 2006 (UTC))
 * My view of the timeline comes from the Exile's own dialog. On multiple occasions, he says that he had been gone "since the Mandalorian Wars". That implies that he was exiled very soon after the war. Furthermore, Kavar's statement above would imply that the Exile waited an entire year before returning to Coruscant (circa 3,959 BBY), yet within KOTOR2, Kreia is easily able to convince the Exile that he had lost his force awareness due to a punishment imposed by the Jedi Council - heck, the entire dark side path hinges on it. What did the Exile just not realize that he had lost his connection to the Force during that year following the battle of Malachor V? I think not. It just doesn't make sense...--Sentry 00:50, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

That's fair enough. Though the Exile is made pretty stupid by default (What? Kreia's a Sith Lord!? Who'd have thought?) ;). To be honest, I find the fact that "Kreia is easily able to convince the Exile that he had lost his force awareness due ot a punishment imposed by the Jedi Council" to be completely unrealistic even if he *did* go back to face the council straight after the wars. S/he would be aware that his connection had been cut off before he visited the council. Following that line of thought, it's not hard for me to think "well, if he can buy that, he can buy anything - even if he saw the council almost a full year later". Ah well, I'll probably just chalk it down as being another example of internal KotOR II inconsistancies, but that doesn't invalidate what Kavar says. You do get the option to say that you've been "gone since the mandalorian wars" quite often, that's true and is an argument that has merit - even though the Exile has the option to say other things that imply that he didn't get exiled straight after - but making the assumption that the Exile couldn't *possibly* believe Kreia's "The Council did it" line if he was exiled a year later, is speculation. Yeah, personally I'd agree with you and think he'd be silly to swallow it, but maybe he believes it because he *wants* to believe it. The Exile does seem to pick and choose what he remembers about the war and the years since, Bao-Dur for example.
 * Too true.--Sentry 04:25, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

I can quite easily reconcile the "gone since the mandalorian wars" stuff with the Exile being 'properly' exiled a year after - since I doubt he was doing much between Malachor V and his trial. For me, the Exile being exiled just as the Sith are revealing themselves makes more sense - especially in the light of options you have with Atris when you first meet her such as:

"You still think I'm a sith?" yada yada.

Ne'ermind- it's not actually neccessary to see a major change in the aftermath section, just 'vague it up' a bit - as you suggested - since there *is* somewhat conflicting info in the game.

Actually, you could probably just stick an "eventually" in: "and return to Coruscant", so it now reads "and, eventually, return to Coruscant". That'll do, since it can be read in such a way that it covers both bases. At least, I think it can, but it's late and I'm probably not thinking at all.

At the end of the day, he was exiled after the Mandalorian Wars. It doesn't really matter if it was a day after or a year after. All I ask is that the latter not be *ruled out* in this article. It doesn't have to be explicitly stated, just not ruled out. Ok. Work tommorow. Time for sleep I think. (Ulicus 03:22, 29 May 2006 (UTC))
 * I actually already fixed it. I just changed "After the Battle, ..." to "After the war, ...". That should cover all possibilities without forcing us to make a judgement call...--Sentry 04:25, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Ah alright, I should have checked, sorry. Doesn't give quite as much leeway as 'eventually' (or maybe it does, my skills with english seem to be atrophying) but I'm ok with it. Thanks. (Ulicus 11:17, 29 May 2006 (UTC))

Extinction of the Mandalorian species
I just happened upon a very interesting statement made by HK-47 in KOTOR2: "Malachor V was an impressive act of destruction, but its impact on the lives of others in the galaxy was more extreme. I mean, master, you brought about the death of the Mandalorian race. I doubt they realize it yet, but you delt them a blow from which they will never recover."

- HK-47 (speaking to the Exile) This seams to imply that the entire Mandalorian species was wiped out in the war... then again HK might have just been using colorful language...--Sentry 06:14, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't think it's far fetched at all to suggest that the developers were using Hk-47 to say that the taung had been wiped out, though I'd be surprised if other EU sources picked up on it - we'll see. Maybe a little comment somewhere in the article, or on the taung page, along the lines of: "the assassin droid, Hk-47 was under the impression that the taung were completely wiped out during the Mandalorian Wars" It would explain why all the Mandalorians we see in K1 + 2 are human (beyond the obvious "devs couldnt be arsed to design them" reason)... I don't know. You usually make good decisions, if you think it's worth it, I'll not object.(Ulicus 11:25, 29 May 2006 (UTC))


 * Not really. As the quote you just provided says, he dealt them a blow they wouldn't recover from, which we know from the fact they became an "army for hire". It doesn't imply the enitre species died in the war, it implies his actions acted as a catalyst for their eventual downfull. Jasca Ducato 12:35, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I'd have probably noticed that had I taken the time to read the third sentence... *slaps forehead* (Ulicus 01:45, 30 May 2006 (UTC))
 * Ya, the quote is extremely vague. I'm not sure what he is implying exactly and I don't suggest we add anything to the article, but I think it is notable that HK uses the phrase "the Mandalorian race" here. The idea that the Exile could have exterminated the entire species at Malachor V seems more than a little unlikely...--Sentry 05:44, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Holes / wounds in the Force
Does anyone else think that an article about 'Wounds in the Force' would be useful? I know of several such locations: Malachor V, the Dark Side Cave on Dagobah, in orbit above Endor, and (possibly) at Alderaan. I'm just bringing it up here instead of Article requests because it is an obscure topic and I rather discuss it with those who know something about it. I think that such an article would be very useful for any discussion of the Exile and Malahcor V...--Sentry 07:54, 30 May 2006 (UTC)