Talk:Form II/Legends

I removed reference to Cin Drallig as a Form II master, as the only reference to Cin Drallig's styles I can find in the novelization and game of Episode III state only he was a fencing instructor. Fencing doesnt automaticly mean Makashi, and especially doesnt mean Makashi mastery. If someone can give me a source I will glady replace it. - Geekmasterflash

I put it in because I heard that he was a master of Makashi. I think I happen to have heard it here. Until there is no confirmation on this, I don't revert it.- TopAce 14:50, 30 Nov 2005 (UTC)

Shaak Ti?
The article says that Shaak Ti used Form II? Are there any sources that can confirm that? Sith Lord 18:14, 5 Dec 2005 (UTC)
 * The Shaak Ti page doesn't say anything about her using Form II, and I haven't heard of any sources that say she used that Form. Maybe someone else knows of a source that says she used Form II. If there isn't any proof, then someone should remove the speculation that she used Makashi. 151.203.150.67 19:35, 5 Dec 2005 (UTC)
 * I already said it somewhere (probably here) that I find it very strange that a Makashi user would survive the Geonosis Arena Battle. Sometimes I don't know what to believe about which Jedi uses which form. What is stated and what could be the reality are two different things. Putting Shaak Ti to be a Makashi master is a poor choice. Surviving attacks from constant waves of Battle Droids is not something a Makashi user could do. Unless she was also the master of another form (Form I or III), I hesitate to believe that Shaak Ti used Makashi. If she did, she had to heavily rely on other Jedi defending her, which is quite improbably considering the chaos that was within the arena. - TopAce 19:54, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Some Evidence in the Book

 * There are a few websites that do mention or speculate that Shaak Ti is a Makashi user, how they determined that I'm not sure. The really only evidence I can find is in the novelization of Star Wars Episode III when Obi-Wan's Soresu style is compared to the other Jedi's.  According to the book soresu lacked the boldness of Anakin's style, the ferociousness of Windu's or Depa Billaba's, nor does it have the stylish grace of a Shaak Ti or Dooku, or does it resemble the whirlwind of "destruction" of a Yoda, but it power lies in its simplicity.  Though it doesn't mention Shaak Ti particular style, she is grouped together with Dooku who is a known Makashi user.  The other forms mention are obviously Anakins Djem So, Windu's Vaapad, and Yoda's Ataru.
 * Then a mention has earned it place in the Behind the scenes section. --Master Starkeiller 20:14, 5 Dec 2005 (UTC)

"There is an understated elegance in Obi Wan Kenobi's lightsaber technique, one that is quite unlike the feel one might get from the other great swordsbeings of the Jedi Order. He lacks entirely the flash, the pure bold elan, of an Anakin Skywalker; there is nowhere in him the penumbral ferocity of a Mace Windu or a Depa Billaba nor the stylish grace of a Shaak Ti or a Dooku, and he is nothing resembling the whirlwind of destruction that Yoda can become." Stover, Matthew. Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith. New York: Del Rey Books, pg 317.

Deconstructing this passage, which is the only reference to Shaak Ti and her prefered lightsaber form, will determine exactly what Master Shaak Ti's Form was. The passage tells us that Obi Wan Kenobi is one of the greatest swordbeings in the Jedi Order and follows with a list of other great lightsaber users. Each is a Master of a particular style of combat. Obi Wan Kenobi uses a basic style that has none of the of the flourish of the others. Anakin Skywalker's form has flash and showmanship. Mace Windu and Depa Billaba are fierce and terrible opponents. Yoda is a force of nature completely unstoppable by anyone. The passage also mentions Shaak Ti and Count Dooku and describes their grace.

Mace Windu and Depa Billaba are grouped together because according to Stovers other novel Shatterpoint, they share the same style (Form VII). Because of that similiarity they are grouped together here with the descriptive phrase "penumbral ferocity." The other grouping of Jedi are Shaak Ti and Count Dooku. They share the phrase "stylish grace." The previous grouping of Windu and Billaba occured because they shared Form VII. The other jedi mentioned singularly are the Masters of their particular Form: Obi Wan Kenobi's Form III, Anakin Skywalker's Form V, and Yoda's Form IV. Therefore, the grouping of Shaak Ti and Dooku must have occured because they share the same form.

Dooku, from the novelization and technical information about the movies, is a Form II Master. This form is a rare talent in the Jedi Order during the time period of Episodes 1-3, and Dooku is one of the few who has mastered it. Because Shaak Ti is paired with Dooku, she too must be either a master of Form II or at least highly adept at that Form. Otherwise, the structure of the passage does not function. Instead the structure of the passage leads to one conclusion--Shaak Ti uses Form II.

If Shaak Ti is a master of Form II, which is centers on dueling with a lightsaber, how does she survive the Battle of Geonosis? Perhaps Form II Mastery has nothing to do with that situation. Instead, lets look at what all the other Jedi who survived the slaughter in the Geonosis Arena have in common. Kenobi, Windu, Skywalker, Kit Fisto, Ki Adi Mundi, Ploo Koon, Stass Allie, Luminara Unduali, Bariss Offree, Bultar Swan, and Aayla Secura are all exemplary Jedi. Windu, Stass Allie, Plo Koon and Ki Adi Mundi were both on the Jedi Council. Kenobi, Skywalker, and Kit Fisto were appointed to the Council. Butlar Swan, Aayla Secura, Bariss Ofree, and Luminari Unduali were exemplary Jedi. Each of these Jedi used a different Form. Their only commonality is that they were the great Jedi of this time period. Shaak Ti is amongst outstanding company, and Stover leads into his description of the Jedi with notion that these are the "great swordbeings" of the Jedi Order.

Form II Mastery does not infer a diminished skill at defense against blaster fire. Dooku spent most of his life, except the time period he served as apprentice to Darth Sidious, as a Jedi Knight. He would have, like other Jedi, been sent on missions to ensure "peace and justice throughout the galaxy." He would have encountered situations where he would have fought against beings or droids who used blaster weaponry against him. He obviously survived those battles. Instead, Form II implies an increased skill in the area of dueling against an opponent with a Lightsaber. Because of this specialization in one area, the possibility exisits that some degradation occurs in defense against blaster fire. However, I don't think it's wise to infer that a slight diminishment in skill will become overwhelming. If such a weakness did occur would it have been possible for Count Dooku to survive his Jedi career?

Stover's novelization, which is considered a part of the Star Wars primary canon, gives the only reasonable description of Shaak Ti's style. Shaak Ti's skill with a lightsaber has a "stylish grace." The same "stylish grace" that Count Dooku has. We are left with overwhelming evidence that Shaak Ti uses the same style as Count Dooku. Therefore, Shaak Ti uses Form II.

Exar Kun?
I know that since the introduction of the lightsaber combat forms Exar Kun is often stated to have mastered the Makashi style, but from the comic books his fencing technique looks way more brutal and aggressive. Kun also seems to lack the self-control of a Dooku, for example. Does anyone know a particular source confirming Kun's Makashi mastery, or is that probably only some sort of fanon? In that case i would suggest to add a short note to the article. -- Edeas 14:07, 13 Jan 2006 (UTC) Some where here on wookiepedia it actually staes that Exar Kun is a Makashi practitioner.
 * Exar Kun's mastery of Makashi was mentioned in an issue of the Star Wars Insider. I think it was #62, but I can't be sure. Ace Venom 03:13, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Exar Kun is NOT a Makashi user, stated in my discussion below. Please kindly inform me which Wookiee entry indicate Exar is a Makashi user, so that I can remove it. Darth Kevinmhk 04:36, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Users
For being such a rare form, there seem to be a lot of people out there using Makashi. -- SFH 01:48, 15 February 2006 (UTC) Not among the Jedi. Considering the thousands of Jedi there are during the Clone Wars, only a small fraction use Makashi. - Alpha Fire 21:19, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Two cent man: Makashi seems a highly unusual choice for a Wookiee. Given the tremendous strength displayed by the species, Djem So is a far more natural choice. Just a thought on Master Tyvokka. Not that he COULDN'T, it just doesn't feel right. 74.132.136.109 07:47, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
 * just think though, a lot of people? theres around 10,000 jedi and we have seen what around 10 different cases? Jedi Dude 09:20, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Sev'rance Tann

 * Can someone give more source for Sev'rance Tann's mastery? Otherwise I vote that we put Sev'rance Tann into Behind the scenes. The main article should only record confirmed masters. Darth Kevinmhk 03:10, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
 * It should go in Bts, yes. Yrfeloran 03:24, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Done. Darth Kevinmhk 04:04, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

ALERT: No Exar Kun!

 * Alright, I wanna prove this for a long time: The so-called Exar Kun = Makashi Master originally appeared on this site: http://swg.stratics.com/content/gameplay/professions/jedi/lightsaber_combat.php which does not bear any real canonical value. Furthermore, a friend of mine sent me a scan of the original Insider #62 to prove that Exar was not mentioned in the Insider article (I can upload it if the discussion requires its presence). Therefore I vote for removing Exar from this article (and removing Makashi from Exar's article) unless another source can be found to counter my claim. Thanks for your kind attention. Darth Kevinmhk 12:56, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
 * If this is fanon, it's pretty widespread, but it's starting to smell like fanon to me too. Yrfeloran 02:07, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Because not all fans own Insider... so most of them thought the site above contain the truth and the whole truth of Insider #62, in fact the site above is missing many information, and now contain possibile fanon. Ya, this is so widespread that almost everyone, including seasoned fans on OS believed that Exar Kun is a Makashi master mentioned in #62. Darth Kevinmhk 02:12, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
 * This site actually uploaded the whole Fightsaber article! http://www.dmeb2.org/darthmaulsection/swinsider62.html Please check that Exar Kun was not mentioned, unless another source can be provided, please remove Exar's name from Makashi user. Darth Kevinmhk 03:38, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Nihilus

 * I did not play KOTOR2, can someone please verify whether Nihilus really used Makashi? Even Nihilus' article only said he used a style "similar" to Makashi. Thanks. Darth Kevinmhk 02:38, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I guess someone looked at the "Feedback" tab of KotORII and somehow concluded that Nihilus's style was Makashi. - TopAce 12:55, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Let's hope he/she is right. Darth Kevinmhk 13:05, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
 * It looks like fanon speculation really. Just because one wields a lightsaber with one hand doesn't make one a form 2 user.
 * No one say adding Nihilus into the article was based on he wielding 1 saber with 1 hand. Darth Kevinmhk 03:43, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
 * As I said, the one who added Nihilus probably took a look at the in-game statistics and concluded Nihilus using Makashi. - TopAce 19:22, 22 June 2006 (UTC)