Talk:Battle of Endor/Archive1

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There is a good amount of information on the Imperial ships and officers present at Endor. ==Fleets== could be filled out with that. I'm sure some one on a forum has compiled it. --SparqMan 02:18, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * The Fleets section seems redundant in my eyes. We've already got all that information in the box. Unless someone objects, I'm removing it. Narvi 11:35, 11 Oct 2005 (UTC)

number of ships
How come there are an enormous amount of cruisers on the rebel side?

3+ Home One-type Star Cruisers 22+ Mon Calamari Star Cruisers (various classes)

wtf? -- Falmarin 23:38, 4 Jul 2005 (UTC)
 * Because the Rebels assembled a big amount of their combined fleet-strenght for this battle. The Empire brought along 30+ warships, though, most of them bigger than anything the Rebels had to offer. VT-16 09:07, 24 Jul 2005 (UTC)


 * In addition to the numbers for the cruisers, the rebel fleet strength also lists 10+ Nebulon-B frigates, 100+ corellian corvettes, 100+ transports, and 800+ assorted fighters. These numbers are roughly 10 times what was shown in ROTJ.  Also, there are six Nebulon-B frigates listed, three are redlinks, and Antares 6 is not listed as being in service until 10ABY Scuff 18:29, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
 * People keep editting that out. The Rebel Fleet was massive, it had to be fore this attack
 * People are editing it out because there is no source to back up those numbers, and they directly conflict with the movie and other representations of the battle. Scuff 21:41, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
 * There are at least 9 Nebulon-Bs visible here. Given that only a small part of the fleet is visible, there could be a lot more. -Vermilion 01:34, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
 * There are more visible there than I would expect to see, this is true (though I only see 7) but my point is why should we make up numbers.  If the strengths are unknown, isn't it enough to just say Nebulon-b frigates and list the names of ones that are confirmed?  Scuff 13:34, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Also keep in mind that Nebulon-Bs were used by the rebels AND the imperials. There is no easy way to tell on which side they are on that photo.
 * I believe the novel had a confirmation on the numbers of ships. And Scuff, think about it, the Rebel Fleet was amassed from all around the galaxy. There were literally hundreds of capital ships. If there weren't, then the Rebel Fleet would have not been a match for the Imperial Navy.-Rob.

"ople are editing it out because there is no source to back up those numbers, and they directly conflict with the movie and other representations of the battle. Scuff 21:41, 6 July 2006 (UTC)"

-SWF
 * Um, the novel for ROTJ says the entire Rebel Allience Fleet is at Endor, so basically every Rebel (and allied ships, like the Airam, etc) Ship shown in the novels, comics, and games, etc not destroyed up to Endor is at Endor. A Nebulon-B Frigate called "Antares" is shown in Star Wars: Rebellion.

You are all forgetting, the MOVIE takes primacy over all comics, and other canon!

In the movie, they had a maximum of 5 calamari cruisers and perhaps 10 blockade runners, and 2 or 3 nebulon frigates.

Assuming that the fleet was 10 times larger than it was shown in the movie is ridiculous, and should be removed.
 * I'm not sure if this is yet resolved, but again, what is the specific source of these numbers, like 500 starfighters? And suggesting we can come up with an accurate, official account by "identifying" blurry starship shapes on screen is a little silly. I guess this is just more of the endless "speculation versus proof" argument that's all over the 'pedia. But proof should really be established, and not "I think the novel said something about it" sort of explanations. If the person who put the info on the page can't come up with a specific explanation, it sounds speculative to me. --JMM 15:00, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
 * The Rebel Alliance fleet does seem to be ridiculously small when we see it make the jump to hyperspace. Perhaps this was only a small portion of it?  I just can not believe that any fleet that small should not be pulverized by so many Star Destroyers.Smokey 21:17, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Point of Canon: The retreat scene at the end of the Battle of Endor (G-Canon) shows a number of vessels generally shaped like Mon Calamari Star Cruisers, with numeorus Ion Engines, that are consistent with the known Mc80 subclasses deployed by the Rebellion. There are dozens of these larger vessels identifiable, if you take the time to actually look and count them out. Admiral Ackbar and Lando's detachment is not the entire Rebel force at Endor. -- IceHawk-181

Still, that doesn't explain the 500 fighters number, when were only 5 or 6 squadrons. User:1705jallen
 * The size of a squadron is variable. Not all the squadrons had the same number of fighter each. In fact, it is recorded in canon that Red Squadron was an amalgamation of Rogue, Red, and other squadrons. The same could have been done to reorganize the other squadrons, as well. And if each squadron contained about 100 fighters each, then there you have it. Gethralkin 17:27, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

New Republic
"However, it was an extremely weak government and its rule was quite ineffective." - isn't that sentence POV? Aside from the fact it shouldn't even be in the Battle of Endor article, it should be probably replaced with examples of the government's inefficiency. - Sikon 01:33, 16 Aug 2005 (UTC)

Question?
Why is Vader not listed as a Commander for the Empire in the battle? he was in charge of the Fleet was he not?
 * While Vader was an extremely high ranking official in the Empire and a well recognized personal agent of the Emperor, he did not actively command any military units at Endor. --SparqMan 23:38, 5 Oct 2005 (UTC)
 * Additonally, even though Vader was there, the Emperor was the one actually ultimately calling the shots. Admiral Piett was given orders directly from the Emperor himself. Gethralkin 17:31, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Teshik?
Should be a casualty for the battle? He wasn't killed in it, just captured and then executed later. Thanos6 04:22, 22 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * Then he survived the battle, and was not a casualty of it, even though he died later as a result of the events caused by the battle. Gethralkin 17:33, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Naboo Starfighters
What sources say that N-1 fighters were used by the Alliance?? Bly1993 14:43, 2 Jan 2006 (UTC)
 * You can use a Naboo fighter in the Rogue Leader game.--Commander Mike 20:39, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Objection!No Proof!etc.
 * The Naboo starfighter is only there as an easter egg, so that doesn't count. Rogue Leader lets you fly all sorts of things like Slave I, and Vader's TIE, and none of those are really taking continuity seriously. - lalala_la
 * But in Starwars.com, it says that Naboo Starfighter were present in the Battle of Endor. Olsonman 1:00, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
 * No it doesn't. The only thing the SW.com Databank says is that they're in RoTJ, probably during the scene with the Naboo celebrations. --  I need a name  ( Complain here ) 15:44, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

The Pellaeon section
That seems very NPOV; there are huge debates about Pellaeon's actions over at TFN, by no means is it as simple as this makes it out to be. Thanos6 08:18, 9 February 2006 (UTC) -SWF
 * But note at TFN, all the discussions about Pellaeon's actions are caused by just one person who hates the character of Pellaeon and has a hard time accepting viewpoints other than his own. Kuralyov 18:47, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
 * That's what I mean; the whole Pellaeon part in this section is Gilad-bashing, that's why I slapped the NPOV on there. Thanos6 19:11, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
 * If you are referring to my additions, I simply elaborated upon (and IMHO softened)what was already there. However you are correct on a point, and to say "wrongfully ordered an illegal retreat" is indeed biased. "Wrongfully" is out. However, the rest of it is all "true," not merely opinion. Just because the sources make Pallaeon look bad, doesn't mean that they aren't valid, and I resent the suggestion that the entire section is "Pellaeon bashing." --jerry 02:53, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Given that I have deleted the opinionated word may I remove the NPOV tag?--jerry 15:56, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
 * It's not wrong because, according to several sources including the most recent NEC, Pellaeon was the highest ranking officer left in the general command structure (with Harrsk being in another unit). As much as your profile indicates you don't like established canon, it's there. Kuralyov 21:51, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Would it be alright if I requested a quote? IIRC they were all flying under Fleet Admiral Piett's flag.
 * Pellaeon ordered a retreat AFTER Teshik's ship was disabled 4 hours after the DS II destruction. Harrsh didn't like being ordered around by Pellaeon and broke off. Prittick then took command of the Fleet, told the Empire formally of the defeat and gave command back to Pellaeon

Would have won
The Empire would have won and crushed the rebels had the Emperor let the Imperial fleet attack.

- (critic) No they would not. The Rebels had shown on repeated occasions their resourcefulness. If the Imperial fleet attacked, it would have been worse for the Death Star gunners because the Rebels would split up their fleet and simply move out of the way of the Death Star's superlaser, and cause the Imperial fleet to break formation, allowing Rebel ships to make a run out of the battle through the hyperspace vector. Palpatine used the Imperial fleet as a wall to keep the Rebels from moving out the sight of the superlaser and destroy them at the same time. The error in their thinking was the near suicidal plan by Calrissian to engage the Imperial fleet, and thus resulting in a similar situation you have mentioned. The Rebel fleet would be crippled, but not all destroyed and go back into hiding.

P.S. The Empire would have won, if they sent a large force of Interdictor cruisers and had more experienced TIE pilots


 * Yeah it was a now or never moment. Palpatine said that he let the coordinates of everything be released so he could draw in the rebels and destroy them once and for all. Plus, Palpatine had to turn Luke to the dark side and the longer the battle went on Luke became more angry and desperate. --Dumac 03:13, 5 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Or kept a few more Lancers and/or Tartans. C'mon, was the DSII really needed? They had a SSD and fifty ISDs. The only real threat was from fighters, which Lancers are adept at handling from range. The heavy capships could've engaged the Mon Cals, the light ships could've taken out the fighters (which were the only real threat to the DS), and the inclusion of more grav well generators to prevent escapes. In fact, the dependance on the superlaser probably sealed their fate, though IG-88 probably would've vaporized the fleet afterward. (Unsigned comment by 82 Airborne)

Name
I would vote for moving this back to simply Battle of Endor. The Second Battle of Endor page points out that it's battle was part of the Nagai/Tof invasion, while this battle is part of the Galactic Civil War. -- SFH 22:30, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Agreed. -LtNOWIS 20:42, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
 * If the two are of separate wars/engagements, they don't need sequential numbering. Rename the second battle "Battle of Endor (Nagai/Tof War)" or something like that. -- Riffsyphon1024 20:52, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
 * For the record, I believe that one of the Marvel issues after #100 actually mentions "the second battle of Endor" in dialogue. --JMM 15:02, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Alliance Dreadnaught
This image shows what I believe to be a Dreadnaught in the background as the Millennium Falcon swoops towards camera to fly by Home One in space over Sullust. I may be mistaken, but if it is a Dreadnaught, I suppose that makes the ship a Movie ship, but just "characterised" by the EU... I don't know if it participated in the battle at all, but it does look an awful lot like a Dreadnaught... can anyone clarify this? --Skarloey 18:44, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, that's a Rendili Dreadnaught. I also saw Bulk Cruisers made by Rendili. Also, they mention the Rendili Dreadnaught is Episod eIII, so it could be canon -SWF
 * Did they mention it actually in ROTS, or just in the ROTS novelization (which is the only reference I know of)? And I always though that ship had a big command-pod sticking out above it, but that might have been just a small ship. Is it said anywhere that the Dreadnaught-class design was based on this vessel? VT-16 15:54, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Is that image that Skarloey put on from Return of the Jedi, the special edition?

I think that is a Bulk cruiser not a Dreadnaught. Just look at the pictures of the two ships. It's definately a Bulk Cruiser. It's too thin and curved to be a Rendili Dreadnaught.


 * Hi! I'm Shannon and I'm new. I do a lot of stuff on Endor and I reckon that this ship is the Battle Horn-class Bulk Cruiser Urjani.--Shannon.JediKnight October 2006


 * I must agree that that ship is, most probably a bulk cruiser. Dreadnaughts have thicker 'necks', if I am not mistakenSmokey 21:17, 5 October 2006 (UTC) 20:22, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Looks more like a grey smear to me. Someone probably sneezed on the camera.--The All-knowing Sith&#39;ari 16:54, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Time
How long did the battle actually last? QX100 01:38, 8 April 2006 (UTC)


 * It must have lasted for a number of hours because the shadowing of the Death Star does not change much and the ground battle on Endor is in afternoon daylight. The battle between Luke, Vader, and the death of the Emperor must be considered, which probably occured over a matter of 3 hours. By the time the Death Star is destroyed and Han is bandaging Leia, the light appears to be late afternoon. By the time they celebrate, it is evening. Of course any speculation of time is relative to how long it takes Endor to orbit, but supposing it is similar to Earth, it probably lasted about 4 or 5 hours, that is including the fight with the Imperial fleet after the Death Star's explosion.


 * I agree that the shadowing on the Death Star is a good indicator to go by, but I personally take into consideration the number of ships destroyed by the Death Star/the number of times the Death Star was fired. Granted, the Death Star did not actually come into play until a considerable time into the onset of the battle, and we cannot say for certain how many times the Death Star was fired nor how many ships it destroyed. Still, and some may argue with this, I think a reasonable assumption is to assume that it destroyed no more than 10-15 ships. That number may even be a bit high. If the Death Star was able to recharge its superlaser and fire again in a matter of minutes, then how long could the battle really have taken? I would estimate the time from the Rebel Fleet hypering into the Endor system to the destruction of the Death Star itself was no more than 1-2 hours. I would say closer to one hour. I make this assumption based on a) the fact that the Emperor would not have waited that long before bringing the Death Star into the mix; and b) the Emperor's power of persuasion over Luke. How long could the Emperor and Luke have "talked" before Luke and Vader finally clashed? 20 min? 30? As far as further skirmishes between the two fleets after the Death Star was destroyed from the time the Imperial fleet finally retreated, I cannot say because I have no knowledge of any EU sources regarding this other than the little I've read here on Wookieepedia. But how long could that have lasted? As far as I'm concerned, the Imperial fleet was already in panic mode by the time the Executor was destroyed and must have retreated soon after the Death Star was destroyed. Post-destruction fighting couldn't have lasted more than, again, 1-2 hours. I would put a final, conservative guess at battle duration being about 1.5 hours, with no more than a 3 hour maximum time frame. Toprawa and Ralltiir 20:55, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Sad Ewok death
Has the Ewok who dies tragically (and is poked by his friend) been identified? --SparqMan 05:16, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes.He was an extra from The Muppets.Why?Does he need to have a name?


 * The horror. The horror.CaptJim 20:47, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
 * He survived really. It's the only way my young mind could deal with such a traumatic event.(Ulicus 23:46, 14 June 2006 (UTC))
 * I have to say that is the saddest death in star wars just because he was an ewok. Curse the imperial scum --Dumac 03:07, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Oh, my favourite ROTJ moment. .  .  .  .  02:32, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

lol play hunt on battlefront 2 on endor lol. ewoks die funny deaths!
 * Please discuss only article-related things here. Chack Jadson 20:25, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Everyone aboard the Death Star?
What's the source for every single Imperial on the Death Star dying? They make a point of showing people running to and fro as alarms blare during the scene where Luke is leading Vader to the shuttle. It seems reasonable to assume that these guys are in the process of evacuating, especially since the fate of the original battle station would be weighing heavily on their minds as the tide of battle turned in favor of the Rebels. - Kooshmeister

I agree i wouldn't say everyone died but i'm sure that a few imperials didn't make it. Luke barely made it out in time so anyone who was behind him got toasted. --Dumac 03:16, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Blue 5
The article says it was Ten Nunb who flew as Blue 5, but it was really Ten Numb who was Blue 5. Somebody want to fix that? Because it sends to the wrong page when you click on it.


 * Hi I'm new. I think I'll try for you. By the way, can someone identify Blue Leader?--Shannon.JediKnight October 2006

Palpatine's Deaths
What the heck does it mean when it says, "Emperor Palpatine is killed (for the first time) by Darth Vader." Yeah, I know Emperor Palpatine had some clones but that sounds absolutely rediculous. When I saw this I was dying laughing. Can I PLEASE edit this???

I totally agree, the whole comic book thing is incredibly stupid. Whether you have clones or not, you only die once.

Or like the James Bond movie heh, you only live twice....
 * Actually, George Lucas said that the comic that was from was his favorite of all the Star Wars comics. -LtNOWIS 23:17, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

IG-88
The whole ridiculous IG-88 thing should be deleted. Even George Lucas after making Jar Jar sized blunders would laugh at this comic book BS. If these incredibly stupid plots continue to be in important articles such as this one and the Darth Vader article, then Wookieepedia will have no credibility.

It seems the people who run this site just want to spam as many useless comic articles as possible, just to outnumber other wannabe star trek wikis out there. Pretty pathetic.
 * Well, we can't pick and choose canon: or rather, we can when forming our own personal opinions on which Star Wars material to view, purchase, enjoy and set in our own hearts as the real Star Wars, but we can't when writing articles for this site. This has been an all-inclusive film and Expanded Universe encyclopedia from the start, following the canon and continuity policies of Lucasfilm. &mdash;Silly Dan (talk) 23:16, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Also, these were from Tales of the Bounty Hunters. Learn your sources before you denounce them. -- SFH 19:44, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Also, you already have 17,000 more articles here than we do at Memory Alpha, which I am pretty sure is the largest of the Star Trek wikis. --OuroborosCobra 17:27, 6 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I am compelled to agree that this 'IG-88' klap-trap does seem a bit ridiculous. How a droid should be able to perform all of the functions of such a massive machine as the Death Star II is 'Quite beyond my capacitySmokey 21:17, 5 October 2006 (UTC)


 * But that is not for us to decide. Even if it doesn't make sense it is not for us to choose what is or isn't canon. Red Head Rider 20:58, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Second Lambda-shuttle
I just noticed that there are two lambda-shuttles in the Rebel Fleet's list of ships. One of them is the Tydirium, but where does the other one come from? I always thought the rebels only managed to get one of those. Or is the second one supposed to be the shuttle taken by Luke to escape the Death Star? Borsk Fey&#39;lya 16:49, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Fleets & Participants
Does it make sense to list specific pilots under the Fleets section, and then list them in the Participants section? For example, we have Wedge Antilles and Tycho Celchu listed along with their callsigns in one section, and then their names again in another. Any thoughts? --JMM 13:33, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Does anyone have anything on the Star Destroyer Visage?--Shannon.JediKnight Ocotber 2006

Revert needed!
Someone's made the Imps victorious and lost a lot of the content. I'm not sure how reverts are supposed to take place, but it's needed. --216.20.70.81 14:59, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Second Battle of Endor?
Wouldn't this technically be the second battle of Endor during the Galactic Civil War? Wouldn't the battle in Ewoks: The Battle for Endor be considered the first one? Adamwankenobi 15:40, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
 * But that wasn't a conflict between the Empire and a rebel movement. VT-16 13:04, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
 * But shouldn't we have a page on it since it was a battle. Adamwankenobi 13:11, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Of course. But I know nothing about it, so it'll have to be someone else. VT-16 14:46, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
 * This battle is officially and constantly called "the Battle of Endor". Keep in mind that many of these "Battle of" articles on the 'pedia are fan created nicknames. But Battle of Endor is official. And I may have mentioned this before, but one of the Marvel Comics issues after the Nagai battle over Endor refers to that Nagai battle as "the second Battle of Endor" in dialogue. Though that name comes from a Nagai character. --JMM 15:29, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
 * So what do we call the battle in Ewoks: The Battle for Endor since the film takes takes before this battle? Adamwankenobi 15:38, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I doubt there's any "rule" for creating battles other than the locations they take place in, so, fanon or not, if a battle takes place on a specific planet, it is indeed the "battle of [name of planet]" unless actually stated to be something else. If "Battle of Endor (insert conflict)" is too grandious, what is the name of the planetary location where the fighting takes place? VT-16 19:04, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, it sort of starts at Terak's castle and ends near Bright Tree Village. I don't know exactly what you'd call it. It's basically a battle between the Ewoks and the Sanyassans. Adamwankenobi 19:21, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Is it part of a larger conflict between the two groups or could we just call the whole thing the "Ewok/Sanyassan War"? VT-16 21:32, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
 * It's pretty much a contained event, so no, it can't be called a war. Adamwankenobi 21:37, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
 * "Ewok/Sanyassan Conflict" then? Failing that, how about "Battle for Endor"? Like the movie's title? VT-16 23:09, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Interdictors
The list of ships for the Imperial side mentions Immobilizer 418 cruisers. It certainly makes sense that there would be Interdictors present; setting a trap without them makes little sense. But if there Interdictors in the Imperial fleet...how was Ackbar planning to retreat before Lando convinced him to press on the attack? Retreat isn't really an option when you can't jump to hyperspace, after all. 71.203.209.0 22:25, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Attack the Immobilizers head on, I suppose. They were support ships after all, would probably buckle under the weight of a fleet of bigger warships. VT-16 16:13, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Bowman Gavin
It says somewhere in Tyrant's Test that Bowman flew a B-wing Wedgeroks! 15:54, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Pyrrhic victory?
As I have read the list of Rebel Alliance casualties, it seems that the Alliance victory is a pyrrhic victory. For one instance, the infobox says that 75% of the surviving Rebel fleet was severely damaged by the defeated Imperial fleet, and that many Rebel capital ships were destroyed. For those who do not know, a pyrhhic victory is a victory that comes at a devastating cost to the victor. Tedius Zanarukando 21:20, 19 November 2006 (UTC)


 * A Pyrrhic Victory is normally applied to victories where the costs of attaining the victory are seen as not sufficient to match the actual benefits. The Battle of Endor is considered to be the major turning point in the Galactic Civil War, resulted in the destruction of the Death Star (which General Dodonna had considered, in the case of the first Death Star, to be worth the loss of the entire Rebellion), the death of the Emperor, Darth Vader and the Executor (the effective flagship of the Imperial Navy), at least one Grand Admiral.....the list goes on.  Also, the ships that were a total loss constituted only a fifth of the fleet according to this article.  In total, I'd say no. --forgottenlord 23:32, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Casualities: Darth Vader vs Anakin Skywalker
In the infobox, it is said that the Empire lost Darth Vader and that the Alliance lost Anakin Skywalker. Since they are the same person, it is contradictory. This person was killed during the Battle of Endor and that he had helped both the Empire and the Alliance. Then why do I disagree with the infobox? Because Darth Vader wasn't killed by the Rebels. The person responsible for his death was the Emperor, although Vader/Anakin did not survive this battle. In the last moments of his life, Anakin fought for his son, so he was on the side of the Alliance. Hadn't Anakin killed Sidious, his death would have been a good thing for the Empire. I would remove Darth Vader from the Empire casualities.
 * From a certain point of view you could say that the Empire "lost" Vader when he defected; or that Vader was killed by Anakin. Your version makes more sense to me, though. --Andrew Nagy 07:03, 27 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Outside of the Skywalker-Solo clan, I doubt anyone saw it that way in-Universe. --forgottenlord 23:34, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Losses of the Alliance Fleet- sources?
I don't challenge the source of the losses of Star Cruisers and Bulk Cruiser (movies, novelization, and XW: Alliance respectively). However, what is the source for the numbers of small ships claimed lost. 12 corvettes? 2 gunships? 3 frigates? 1 Kesselian bloackade runner? Seriously, I truely wish we had these types of numbers, but I am not aware of any source that lists the majority of the losses claimed. And I have alot of sources. If some sources are not provided I will remove the sections described above. AdmiralNick22 22:38, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Have you seen all the sources listed in the article?--Herbsewell 02:04, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, which is why I am curious where the info comes from. I am willing to wait and see if anyone can produce a source before I delete it. However, I remain very skeptical that such sources exist. AdmiralNick22 02:25, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Anyone have any sources to show yet? I also am now challenging the source saying that at least three Mon Cal cruisers were decimated by Star Destroyer guns. Having looked at novelization for ROTJ, I see the kamakaze attack, but no reference to three Rebel Star Cruisers being destroyed in this manner. No one is debating that the Rebellion lost many warships at Endor. However, we have no credible numbers so the fanon needs to be removed. I am still checking through my other sources, but nothing has come up. Which is not suprising to me. AdmiralNick22 15:38, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
 * You might want to go on the IRC.--Herbsewell 21:14, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Looks like a significant chunk of that was added by an IP who disappeared in September. I doubt you'll find anything to back it up. I went ahead and trimmed the Rebel losses to what I've seen in the Truce at Bakura Sourcebook and the games. -- Darth Culator  (Talk)(Kills) 18:28, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Another Vandalism. I apologize for calling you new, AdmiralNick2.  I had mistaken 2005 for 2006.  I thought instead of you contributing for a year, you had contributed for less than a day.--Herbsewell 18:40, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Darth Culator, thanks for the fix. I appreciate your apology Herbsewell. :-) It is important that as Wookieepedians we challenge sources we think to be in error. When they are found and corrected, it benefits all who participate here, as well as those who use this as a resource. AdmiralNick22 01:23, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
 * More junk added to the "losses" section, including very specific Alliance losses. I am editing it and removing it. AdmiralNick22 15:27, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I added the loss of the Redemption, according to the information presented in Therefore I Am: The Tale of IG-88: Kevin J. Anderson writes, "He (IG-88) enjoyed blowing up the Mon Calamari star cruisers, the hospital ship, the Rebel frigates..." Considering the prominence of the Redemption as THE "hospital ship" of the Rebel fleet - I take into account its appearance in ESB as the location where Luke Skywalker is refitted with his new hand, and the fact that Wedge says during the battle that "they're going for the medical frigate," with the next shot clearly showing a Nebulon-B Frigate, which must be the Redemption, and also which gives credence to the strategic importance of this ship - I am forced to assume that this "hospital ship" is indeed the Redemption.
 * Also, for the other "Rebel Frigates," I would assume that Anderson means these to be other Nebulon-B frigates considering the numbers of these ships present at the battle, but since there is really no verification of this, and that they could be Mon Cal frigates, I simply added "1+ other various Rebel FrigatesToprawa and Ralltiir 21:10, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Red 2?
Is there any way to verify that Red 2 is the Y-Wing Pilot that says "I'm on it Gold Leader," (about 1 hr 50 mins into ROTJ)? If so, is it worth adding an entry?

There's no sourse, but it's probably Wes Janson.Wedgeroks! 17:37, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Captured Scout trooper
There's something that I've been wondering for years, and I figure this would be a good place to ask. Immediately after Han and Leia are led out of the bunker, there is a wide shot outside of the assembled Imperial soldiers. On the bottom right of the screen, there is a group of captured Rebel commandos, and one of them is wearing Scout trooper armor. Anybody know his identity? -- SM-716 talk? 19:23, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Da, its Lieutenant Nik "Gramps" Sant. I know that. Shannon.JediKnight

It's not Gramps. Stormie has a blonde beard. Sant's is grey.Wedgeroks! 16:03, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Speeder bike chase...
Should a seperate article for the speeder bike chase be made? After all, it was significant in the fact that if the rebels had failed to catch the scouts, the entire operation would have been botched, and if Leia might have not got lost and found by Wicket, she might have almost been sacrified as well. Or should it count as part of the overall battle, and hence be put in the article? Unit 8311 19:59, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't think it's that important but it's defiantly not part of the battle.--Herbsewell 22:53, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I see. Anyone else have an opinion? Unit 8311 15:12, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Avenger destroyed
It says that the Avenger was destroyed in the battle, but Sedriss used it at the Second Battle of Balmorra. Which ones right?--The All-knowing Sith&#39;ari 19:47, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Names can be, and are, reused. They pretty well have to be when we've dealing with a fleet containing some 25,000 ISDs, and presumably at least hundreds of thousands of smaller capital ships. Red XIV 23:44, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Right, so this one's like an Avenger II?--The All-knowing Sith&#39;ari 12:42, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
 * What source says the Avenger was destroyed? --Danik Kreldin 03:24, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

LAAT gunships? Tanks?
What's the source for the Rebels using these things at Endor? Red XIV 00:00, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
 * The LAAT is available in the space battle in BF:II and the tanks are used on the story level that takes place in Force Commander, where the rest of the legion of troops Palpatine had stationed on the ground get taken out. VT-16 19:35, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
 * You can't play at Endor in BF2. Chack Jadson 20:41, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Pic
Anyone can got an image of the Falcon flying through the flames right before it bursts out of the Death Star? Chack Jadson 20:45, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Dating
Is there a West End Games dating for the Battle of Endor? It will be 39: something. --Eyrezer

Fact Clarification
Anyone got a source for this: "At some point Admiral Ackbar was apparently forced to transfer his flag from RAS Home One to RAS Independence, probably due to severe battle damage in combat with Executor." Thanks. Chack Jadson 14:44, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I think it's from somewhere in the databank...Unit 8311 17:04, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Mentioned only?
Should the Appearances include places where the battle was "mentioned only"? The battle is mentioned in many, many places in all media. It seems like that list could get much too long. If those mentions are to be included, then the list should be much longer. --JMM 18:32, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Pilots with no callsigns
It seems to me that many pilots we know of have not actually been placed in a squadron. Grizz Frix, for example, is an X-wing pilot, but that doesn't mean he's with Red Squadron. Red supposedly includes non-X-wings, and we know that Gold includes ships other than the Falcon, but just what type has not been specified. I suggest an "Other pilots (squadrons unknown):" section, like the Battle of Yavin page has. --JMM 12:44, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Mon Mothma present at battle?
The page lists Mon Mothma as one of many Rebels who participated in the battle. Clearly she debriefed the Alliance of the plan of attack, but does that qualify as her being present? For what could have very well been a suicidal action taken by the Rebellion, there's no way she would have been there. I believe this should be removed. Toprawa and Ralltiir 21:21, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm under the impression that the RoTJ novel states that the Rebel Alliance in its entirety was present at the battle. --  I need a name  ( Complain here ) 00:15, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
 * It does say that. I've just re-read the novel, coincidentally. It is obvious that this statement has been overridden through other canonical sources. Certainly not EVERY ship was present at the battle, I would have to say. And for what the book states, I would have to assume that that is in a purely military sense. As far as we know, Mon Mothma brings no martial value to the table and thus, it would be foolish to have its biggest political leader present. Toprawa and Ralltiir 00:34, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Largest battle of Galactic Civil War?

 * Something has always struck me the wrong way when I read "one of the largest and most important battles" in the intro section. Could there possibly have been a battle larger than this? Perhaps the liberation of Coruscant? Toprawa and Ralltiir 04:19, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Possibly Battle of the Rebel Fleet (.75 ABY), if we're talking about the Classic era. -LtNOWIS 17:00, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
 * This seems unlikely to me: a) if that page is anywhere near accurate, then the amount of ships in that battle doesn't even begin to compare to what was seen at Endor; and b), even if the entire Rebel fleet was present at that battle, the entire complement of ships that comprised the entire fleet in .75 ABY was also no where comparable to what they possessed in 4 ABY. Toprawa and Ralltiir 20:22, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Minor formating question
Just a minor template formating question. Why is it that the main image is set for 300px wide, yet it is displaying only 250px wide and not filling out the width of the battle infobox? - JMAS 15:54, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
 * The image is still 300px wide, it's because the infobox has somehow become 335px wide. --  I need a name  ( Complain here ) 16:29, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Ah, I see. OK, that is weird. - JMAS 03:32, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Do any of the Admins have the technical knowhow to figure out why this particular battle infobox is 335px wide instead of the normal 300px? - JMAS 03:22, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I thought it might some margin or padding around the image. That doesn't appear to be it.  Strangely, if I take the 300px size off the image and do a preview, the Infobox seems to expand to the full width of the image (537 px).  The infobox has coding for a 300 px width which should not allow that.  Maybe somebody else can help with this... -Fnlayson 20:57, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah, my first thought was someone had messed with the Battle template but it's protected, plus if that were the case, all other battles would have the same issue. Yet this is the only one to display this particular quirk. Strange indeed. - JMAS 18:42, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

5.2 Factual correction
I just watched said battle, and checked the novelization. A few points of information:

1) The talk of squadrons seems misplaced. According to the com chatter, Red GROUP, Gold GROUP and Green GROUP participate in the battle. The novelization adds Blue Group and Gray (sic) Group. And Lando asks all "Wings" to report in. So, 'Wings' or 'Groups' would be acceptable in canonical terms; 'squadrons' less so. The term squadron is used twice in the novel: once to refer to the impromptu squad (Wedge, Blue Leader and Green Wing) that Lando leads in an attack on the Empire's main communications ship. The second time Lando does use the line 'Blue Squad', so maybe i'm being a little harsh. But i still think the term 'Group' would be better than 'Squadron' - and it's G-canon.

2)As far as can be gathered (e.g by looking out the back of the cockpits when the group leaders call in), all of the Groups at Endor are composed of mixed starfighters, rather than ship-specific as suggested by the article.

3) If the Alliance had 500+ starfighters, why only 5 Groups ('Red 97, standing by!'...)? The novel talks of 'a score of rebel ships' entering the Death Star after Lando orders 'Red Group, Gold Group, all fighters follow me'. I realise this thread is argued above, but the question remains unresolved: why list such a speculative figure at all? The same could be said of the capital ship listings. And why no Assault Frigates listed, if it is supposed to be the entire Rebel Fleet?

4) Unless the Alliance has taken to shooting prisoners of war, i find it hard to believe that most of the bunker's command staff were killed, as stated in the sidebar.

5) p.142 of the RoTJ novel (Futura paperback ed.)tells us that Gray Leader's 'last transmission was interrupted by a burst of pyrotechnics that completely disintegrated Gray Wing.' Another name for the memorial (Grey Wing, and Gray Leader. In fact, since Gray Group aren't mentioned again, Gray Wing could here refer to the whole Group being disintegrated.)

6) The RoTJ novel has Green Group firing proton torpedoes at the Executor. Not all A-wings, then. I'll shut up now, since i'm just annoying myself. All i wanted to do was find out how many A-wings were supposedly at Endor...

Oh, and according to the Truce at Bakura Sourcebook, the CRV Old Republic was destroyed in the aftermath of the battle. Don't know if that should count as lost or not. And why no mention of the capture of the Accuser and the Adjudicator?

Finally, before ppl accuse me of being harsh, at least i'm not just rewriting somebody else's efforts here. Just raising some points i feel should be considered. Delta source 07:21, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Exploding Star Destroyer question
During the part of the battle in which Admiral Ackbar states that the Alliance forces needed to buy more time for those fighters in the Death Star superstructure and for all forces to concentrate on the Executor, outside there's an image of an Imperial Star Destroyer exploding in the background. Has that ship ever been identified by name? Servo 01:25, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I've always personally thought it to be the Denunciator (if I remember correctly). In the game Star Wars: X-wing Alliance, it is a requirement of the Battle of Endor level to destroy a Star Destroyer occupying a sector close to the Death Star, where the Rebel starfighters need to converge in order to make their run on the Death Star's reactor. Again, if I remember correctly, it was the Denunciator.Toprawa and Ralltiir 01:36, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Aftermath
Do we really need information going as far as 40 ABY? It would be like having information about the first gulf war in an article about WWII. That section belongs to a different article.

Why I Ignore the Novelisation
I tend to ignore most of what's in the novelisation as it is just an early version of the movie itself. Kesselian Blockade Runner was mentioned in another media connected to the Battle of Endor but I ignore others. The Corellian Battleship could be translated as a Corellian Corvette, Sullustian Cargo Freighters, early versions of Gallofree Transports, Calamarian Tankers as Mon Cal Star Cruisers and Bombers as B-wings. I don't see anything that suggests that a Com Ship belonging to the Empire was destroyed and I discount Blue Leader, Blue Wing and Green Wing from anything.--Shannon.JediKnight 10.52 December 21 2007

Just a few things to clear up
Is there an actual source that says Green Group was made up of only A-wings. In the movie, at the start of the battle when Arvel Crynyd says, "Green Leader, standing by" you can clearly see that one of his two wingmen is flying an X-wing. Also he is being followed by an X-wing (which is destroyed) when he is shot down over the Executor. And is there then source that says Tycho and Jake Farrell were in Green Group. I ask this because Lando orders Red Group and Gold Group to follow him when the Death Star's sheilds go down, so it makes no sense that Tycho and Farrell would follow him if they were in Green Group. Lastly, why do numerous pages here on Wookieepedia refer to Gold, Green and Blue Groups as synonomous with Gold, Green and Blue Squadrons. Unless I'm mistaken the fighter groups at Endor were made up of multiple squadrons. If anyone can clear these things up for me I'd appreciate it. Tarvin Calaan 22:24, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Aftermath
Something should be mentioned about the Imperial fleet going to Kuat to defend the Eclipse. I'de do it myself, but I'm not sure where to put it. 86.136.1.93 15:21, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

How was this battle so Catastrophic?
How was this battle so catasrtrophic for the Empire? Did Emporer Palpatine use the Force to keep his entire Empire so focused that immediately after the battle the Empire collapsed within a few days? How is this completely that one battle destroyed a Galaxy Spanning Empire after the loss of only about ~0.02125% of their fleet and about ~0.05% of their Combat Troops. Is the Emporers Will really that strong?

It is speculated that papatine was able to use Battle Meditation to help his fleet during battle. So when palpatine was killed the Empire loss a hudge advantage again the rerbel, and if someone kill the persone who is in the head of the nation i dont think it would be able to work correctly without someone to rule it.Oméga 1036 16:44, 30 March 2008 (UTC)


 * It was more of a power vacuum. Conversations between Palleon and Thrawn in Heir to the Empire Seams to Indicate Various Grand Admirals and Admirals all tried to Claim leadership in the aftermath. The Empire just sort of fragmented. (Also see "warlord" Zinj in Solo Command and Courtship of Princess Lea)

71.17.94.75 05:45, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Imperial commanders
Shouldn't we add more imperial commanders? I mean, Admiral Harrsk, Captain Gilad Pellaeon and Grand Admiral Osvald Teshik commanded the fleet against the rebels after the destruction of the Executor (and Teshik's star destroyer would fight alone for hours), so they should be listed as commanders.

Well, since nobody has said anything, I suppose that I can add them.

Veers?
The article says that Veers was present at the battle. Was in a destroyer, leading the ground forces or...?

Why have you edited what I wrote?
I don't think that I did anything wrong, why have you deleted what I wrote? I wrote that Teshik and Pellaeon were imperial commanders (which is true because both of them commanded the fleet). However, IG-88 appears as an imperial commander, and he didn't command anything, nor he was imperial. I also wrote that the two Sith Lords that participated in the battle were Darth Vader and Darth Sidious, which is true, and, since the article says the Jedi Knights (And even future Jedi Knights) that participated, I don't know why I can't put who were the two Sith Lords. Also, I put that two Victory-II class frigates participated in the battle. We have them in the "casualities" section, but they're not in the "imperial forces" one, which is pretty stupid.

Why did you do this? I think that I didn't do anything wrong.

I did stuff
i took out the roan shryne related content if you read the entire Dark Lord: Rise of Darth Vader, you would know that Shryne's vision refers to Kashyyyk. kinda obvious. so the changes i made would be a good thing thanks Ct6623 00:49, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Except it isn't. --  I need a name  ( Complain here ) 12:57, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Clarification of Battle of Endor and Battle of Kashyyyk
There is reason for me to believe some inaccuracy about the Roan Shryne part of this article. The arguement can be convincing both ways. Here is a minor breakdown. The source is Star Wars: Dark Lord Rise of Darth Vader. Shryne's vision describes the details below:

"An explosion bright as a star," Shryne said. "A forest world, intrepid defenders, escaping ships, and... you, I think, somehow at the center of it all." - Roan Shryne, Star Wars: Dark Lord: Rise of Darth Vader, page 296

Somewhere in the book (still searching the page number and quote out) there is mention of lush forests in Shryne's vision. This will be added when it is found.

Battle: Kashyyk

 * Huge Explosion: Destroyed Interdictor Cruiser
 * Forest World: Kashyyyk
 * Escaping Ships: Merchant Ships Escaping Battle
 * Lush Forests: Yes

Battle: Endor

 * Huge Explosion: Death Star II
 * Forest World: Endor
 * Escaping Ships: No
 * Lush Forests: No

Winner: Kashyyyk
Huge Explosion: Endor Forest World: Kashyyyk Escaping Ships: Kashyyyk Lush Forests: Kashyyyk

So I plan to change the information regarding the Roan Shryne unless someone can provide an objection backed by solid evidence. Ct6623 22:35, 4 January 2009 (UTC)


 * But, "escaping ships" fled the Death Star at the last moment (the Falcon, fighters, Luke's shuttle) and Endor has lush forests. --JMM 03:46, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I'd have to go with Endor, and here's why: I think the quote your looking for mentioning the lush forests is on pages 5 and 6 of the paperback version. The quote of the actual vision itself is: "Murkhana's lathered clouds finally began to thin, until they merely veiled the planet's wrinkled landscape and frothing sea. A sudden burst of brilliant light drew Shryne's attention to the sky. What he took for an exploding gunship might have been a newborn star; and for a moment the world tipped out of balance, then righted itself just as abruptly. A circle of clarity opened in the clouds, a perforation in the veil, and Shryne gazed on verdant forest so profoundly green he could almost taste it. Valiant combatants scurried through the underbrush and sleek ships soared through the canopy. In the midst of it all a lone figure stretched out his hand, tearing aside a curtain black as night...
 * Shryne knew he had stepped out of time, into some truth beyond reckoning.
 * A vision of the end of the war, perhaps, or of time itself."

To me this means Endor, as "a lone figure tearing aside a curtain black as night" would be Darth Vader killing the Emperor and bringing the Force back to balance. Also there are combatants on the ground as there were at Endor and the vision itself only says "sleek ships soared through the canopy" which they did do at the Battle of Endor as seen in the movie. So I believe the vision is of Endor as the details in the vision itself suggest it :). I agree there are parts of the quote are ambiguous, but with the quote of the vision itself I think it is the Battle of Endor especially with the "tearing aside a curtain black as night" part. What do you think Ct6623? Hope this helps clarify it :-).  Grunny  (Talk) 07:48, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I hate to contradict myself, but I just came across your quote and I think you left out a part that is essential to your argument... After seeing the Interdictor be destroyed above Kashyyyk ''"Shryne's expression suddenly changed, from smug to almost rapturous.
 * "I've seen this," he uttered, mostly to himself. "I envisioned this . . ."
 * "An explosion bright as a star," Shryne said. "A forest world, intrepid defenders, escaping ships, and . . . you, I think, somehow at the center of it all."
 * So now I can say that I'm not as certain that it is Endor that the vision portends, as Shryne himself believes it to be referring to Kashyyyk. And I believe the vision is ambiguous enough to be potentially both. So now I feel I acted to hastily in my previous view, sorry :S. What does everyone else think on the matter given the two quotes?  Grunny  (Talk) 08:07, 9 January 2009 (UTC)


 * It just seems to me that it's more likely the author would refer the Battle of Endor, since it's such an important event in the Star Wars universe. The Battle of Kashyyyk is far less meaningful. --JMM 13:39, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree with that, however the events on Kashyyyk are more important in the book, as that is where the main character dies and he himself believes vision referred to that event. I think its ambiguous enough to potentially be either, however it would make sense that at the start of the book the main character foresaw an event at the end of the book which made him come to a realisation about the Force itself. I'm not saying its definitely Endor or definitely Kashyyyk just looking at it from all angles. The more I think about it, however, the more I am inclined towards Kashyyyk just because it has the most impact on the story in the book itself and Shryne believes it to be so. What do you think? :)  Grunny  (Talk) 14:03, 9 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I dont recall the sleek ships in the Endor part... But havent watched EP6 in a while either. I know that there are CR25s and LAAT/i's present at Kashyyyk but this is rather a mute point as you have corrected yourself.  As for forests, none can possibly be more lush than Kashyyyk's wroshyyr (SP?) trees.  The book talks about how the wookiees could live of the forest for as long as possible.  The escaping ships I am not sure about.  I see where you are coming from but, they aren't really escaping, merely fleeing the soon-to-be-destroyed death star.  Ct6623 15:59, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Mara Jade as a participant?
Mara Jade is listed as one of the participants of the battle, but wasn't she elsewhere at the time. She felt Palpatine's death while on a mission somewhere else, according to her comic mini-series, didn't she? --JMM 12:20, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Ewok Genocide
I believe something should be mentioned about the extinction of the Ewoks (or near-extinction) and the planetary catastrophe that the exploding Death Star would have caused. In reality, if something the size of the Death Star was destroyed in orbit, at the altitude seen in the film (probably between 500 and 800 km), the resulting devastation to the planet would be apocalyptic. The explosion would bathe every square meter of the surface within line-of-sight in lethal radiation, sterilizing the soil and killing all the Rebels and Ewoks who were seen partying at the end of the movie (they would die within hours from acute radiation sickness). Even assuming the explosion didn't emit massive quantities of lethal radiation (which seems unlikely), the debris would begin to rain down like a massive meteor storm, pummeling the planet with multiple extinction-level impact events (some pieces visible in the explosion must be on the order of dozens of kilometers across) and blasting billions of tons of vaporized ejecta into the atmosphere. Those fragments small enough to burn up in the atmosphere would only add to the massive quantity of atmospheric dust and toxins. The end result is utter global devastation that would have blotted out the sun and rendered the planet uninhabitable for a thousand years. Unless the Rebels evacuated some of the Ewok population, Ewoks would be extinct within a few months. --Terminator484 03:25, 2 July 2009 (UTC) > JangFett  Talk 03:37, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
 * See Endor Holocaust. Doctor Kermit ( The Doctor is in ) 03:29, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
 * The "Endor" your referring to is a moon, not planet :P See Endor (planet). <span style="font-variant: small-caps; font-family: Verdana; font-size: 12px"

501st fought in the Battle of Endor
Battlefront confirms that the 501st were the main fighting force at the Battle of Endor, so why doesn't the article say anything about that?
 * Where is this confirmed in Battlefront? --  I need a name  ( Complain here ) 20:02, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Rebel Strike
I'm sorry I can't, my copy of SW: RS III: Rebel Strike won't let me do the mission, but can someone identify the walker unit numbers that you encounter in the mission where you are identified as a 'Traitor' or enemy walker? I sort of remember one, Unit B03, but I'm not entirely sure that's it. I'm sorry to bug about something like this but I think it would benefit the Wiki and make this a better page.--Turbogruntman117 00:48, November 28, 2009 (UTC)