Talk:Grand Army of the Republic/Legends

The Clone Trooper Legions and Battallions and the Specialized Clone Troopers were the predecessors of the Specialized Stormtroopers. -- Eddyward Telerionus 14:12, 10 Aug 2005 (UTC)
 * So...?? We all know that the clone troopers became the stormtroopers after the fall of the Republic. What was the point of that, Eddy? Cmdr. J. Nebulax 16:31, 10 Aug 2005 (UTC)

The Specialized Clone Troopers were assigned to special duties and each type of Specialized Clone trooper wore armor that distinguish one type of Specialized Clone Trooper from another, but ironically a Phase II Clone trooper armor's color markings indicates legion affiliation (whereas in the early Clone Wars, the Phase I armor's color markings indicates a rank). After the fall of the Republic, when the Clone troopers were transformed into the Stormtroopers, the Empire abandoned the use of armor with color markings that indicate rank or legion affiliation. -- Eddyward Telerionus 23:20, 10 Aug 2005 (UTC)
 * Again, I ask. So...??? I don't see the point of why you're posting this information WHICH WE ALREADY KNOW. So why bother posting this? I thought that the discussion pages were for discussing the article, not putting up information which we knew, even before you posted this. Cmdr. J. Nebulax 00:24, 11 Aug 2005 (UTC)

I'm posting this information because the Clone Troopers were divided into specialized units and color-marked legions. -- Eddyward Telerionus 22:08, 11 Aug 2005 (UTC)
 * Ok, what did I miss? -- Riffsyphon1024 22:20, 11 Aug 2005 (UTC)

Eddy, WE ALREADY KNEW THAT. We knew long before you posted that that the clone troopers were divided up like that. Cmdr. J. Nebulax 22:58, 11 Aug 2005 (UTC)

"Though the clone troopers fought for the Republic during the Clone Wars, the army was turned against the loyalists and the Jedi when the Galactic Empire was formed at the war's end." Turned against loyalists? I don't think so... Only against the Jedi.
 * Actually, that statement is true. At the beginning of the Jedi Purge, Palpatine began to compile a list of possible traitorious senators that thought the Galactic Republic should not have been changed into the Galactic Empire. That is stated in the Episode III Visual Dictionary. Cmdr. J. Nebulax 19:25, 31 Aug 2005 (UTC)

Just something to add: The numbers about the Order of Battle are wrong. If a Squad contains 9 Troopers and a Sergeant there are 10 Clones. 4*10 = 40 not 36(which would let the Troopers without a Sergeant). I think this makes all the numbers wrong. I will correct that, if I have enough time tomorrow --84.173.244.19 20:21, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, let's make sure we have the right numbers from the Insider 84 article before going and changing it. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 20:24, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Clone Marshal Commander
I hadn't heard this title before. What is its source? --SparqMan 00:01, 25 Sep 2005 (UTC)

Insider 84: Guide to GAR --24.247.124.158 00:20, 25 Sep 2005 (UTC)
 * Yes. It seems that someone will need to find some information on the Clone Marshal Commander and create a page for it. We know that this clone trooper is more important than the senior clone commander. Cmdr. J. Nebulax 01:27, 25 Sep 2005 (UTC)

Specializations Image
Why was it removed? it was perfect for that part... razzy1319
 * It was too big. Maybe if you could make it smaller, then you could put it up again. Cmdr. J. Nebulax 21:32, 1 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * if it was a big file size then I would agree but it fit perfectly between the division lines.
 * If you would have previewed it, you would have seen that it stretched out that section. Cmdr. J. Nebulax 21:58, 1 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * I did preview it. it fit perfectly. what's your screen resolution?
 * It doesn't matter. Its location in the article made a gap between two bullets. That's why I removed it. Cmdr. J. Nebulax 22:12, 1 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * Dont know what page your looking at but it looks perfect.
 * Now it looks much better. Cmdr. J. Nebulax 00:35, 2 Nov 2005 (UTC)

Specializations
It contains information the Clone trooper article doesnt... pls revert. --Razzy1319 05:15, 17 Jan 2006 (UTC)
 * Anything that wasn't in Clone trooper was moved over. --SparqMan 05:32, 17 Jan 2006 (UTC)
 * eh, dont see cuyvaldar, planetary militias, and etc in the clone trooper article ---Razzy1319 05:37, 17 Jan 2006 (UTC)

Republic Navy in GAR Article?
In case you don't know, the Grand Army and the Republic Navy are two seperate entities. This article should be about the Army, and the Republic Navy article should be about the Republic Navy. Bottom line: there's more about the Navy in this article than the Army. --AdmThrawn 21:16, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Agreed. I removed some unneeded stuff. Admiral J. Nebulax 22:41, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks. All that starfighter stuff belongs somewhere else. --AdmThrawn 22:46, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
 * I wasn't exactly sure to keep it in from the beginning, either. Admiral J. Nebulax 23:56, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Numbers
Quote:"The account of the Battle of Muunilinst in the New Essential Chronology says that the Republic landing involved "hundreds of assault ships, each one groaning from the weight of troopers and war machines"; the figure of 3.2 million is arrived at if this phrase is extrapolated to mean around two hundred Acclamator-class assault ships, each carrying its full capacity of 16,000 clones."
 * Couldn't some of the Acclamators have been Acclamator II-class assault ship, which presumably carry fewer troops? -LtNOWIS 02:09, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Acclamator IIs presumably wouldn't have been available then, since they were eventual modifications of Mk Is. Also no Clone Wars source has ever shown a Mk II, which after all are mentioned in only one EU source. Plus the quote implies that all ships were transports; why would a ship not designed to hold anything be included in a definition of a "groaning" carrier fleet? Kuralyov 03:11, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
 * That was me by the way. I thought I was logged in. We don't really how long after the Mk I they were introduced, or what version whether any given Acclamator-class in the EU is. When someone calls a ship an Acclamator, it could be either. Nor do we know how many troops the Mk II carried. But those are valid points. -LtNOWIS 05:19, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

I can't help but notice a number of references to points raissed in my essay here. Cool - Daniel-K
 * Where did you get that information about the figures from the movies? Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 19:07, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Debate

 * Unlike the fleet-related debates for the OT and later eras, I don't particularly care about this Grand Army "problem." And now I know how the uninvolved parties must feel about the debates I follow/participate in. It's kriffing hilarious to watch. http://media.ign.com/boardfaces/18.gif -- Darth Culator 12:57, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
 * And you know what else would be funny? If some of you guys went and edited Grand Army of the Republic on Uncyclopedia. -- Darth Culator 13:15, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
 * If you liked it so far, you're gonna love this:

Traviss:

"It's not a daft figure, though: everyone assumes that the war was fought on every planet all the time for three years solid.

''It wasn't. It was small scale, very mobile, spread out and bushfire as much as anything - to keep the Jedi busy and scattered. Palps wasn't stupid.''

'Folks think WWI or WWII. Wrong style of war for this.'"

And someone's comment:

"Did I miss something? "Small scale"? Doesn't she realize that George Lucas is one of those "folks"? Traviss has made it clear that she won't discuss this further, so I guess there's no idea pushing it further."

Gold. Comedy gold. 8D VT-16 18:37, 11 April 2006 (UTC) Making this more objective would be excellent. You get the feeling only one viewpoint(maximalist) is presented here.(FoM, the "Fandalorian"...sure...)``
 * We need to make the numbers section more NPOV and encyclopedic. It should be like the Creationism articles on Wikipedia, where both sides of the issue are evenly presented. I mean, this article really shouldn't have an exclamation point...-LtNOWIS 19:06, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 19:29, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree it should be more objective, but don't delete entire parts of text that don't support your view. The NEGC and Lord of War references keep on disappearing during these edits, and they're a key part to the debate. Jast17

Wont happen again. Though, since whatever edits I make will invariably disappear before long, I do ask someone to possibly create a section for the lower numbers (3 million cloens and the like) and a section for higher numbers (3 million clone divios and what not) and present the arguemnts for both sides in a fair manner in these sections. -FoM
 * I see some "interesting" edits have been removed once again, before I had time to complain to the admins. Wasn't that fortunate? I also see some people have an issue with the Clone Wars being a galactic-scale conflict, which is a shame, as this recent "re-imagining" of events as a series of small spec ops with little consequence for the galaxy as a whole, is an unfortunate development, with little regard for the previous four years of CW literature. Low troop-numbers or not, I've never seen any previous author obsess this much with low-scale CW events, as if they constituted the CW as a whole.


 * As for "different" troop-numbers, I refer once again to the previous four years of literature (as well as, god forbid we forget, the actual movies). Many battles are shown with large-scale confrontations, that easily eclipse "a few thousand troops". And the fact remains that clones were set to operate everything in the military, from tanks to fighters to capital ships (and, no, you can not fight a ground battle and a space battle with the same clone doing different tasks at the same time, i.e pilot a fighter, man ship-guns and pound the ground). This has all been stated time and time again, and the sheer number of ships are too many to account for only three million clones. In the battle of Coruscant alone, there are thousands of ships (as stated by the ILM animators), with primarily all-clone crews, and with plenty of clones already fighting on the surface, it easily eclipses 3 million. Plus, the Outer Rim Sieges are on-going at the same time!


 * There's a time when people need to know where to jump off. The author in dispute has gone way past that line by now, and I'd appreciate it if people would now settle down or distance themselves from her, until this thing cools off.
 * It's really pathetic, now. I'm not saying that to be snarky, and I don't find this debate particularly funny, either (in contrast to my previous remark above :P). Now it's just down-right sad.


 * PS. (I didn't invent the word "fandalorian" but I have seen it be used by Ms. Traviss and fans of her work, so both sides have used it, IIRC). VT-16 21:34, 11 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Wow, it seems like a lot has occured since I last wrote something here... Anyway, from what VT-16 said: "if people would now settle down or distance themselves from her, until this thing cools off". Let's just do what VT-16 suggested here. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 22:04, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

But still, it is a debate, and what Karen says is canon, just as much as Lord of War and NGEC and ITW etc. are. I realise both sides have valid reasons and all the more reason to show them. And even though it conflicts with these earlier sources (and perhaps because it conflicts) we should at least try to show why people might support her instead of the others. Seeing as how there is no definitive answer (hence the term debate) until it is retconned to something everyone is happy with (somehow unlikely methinks...) we should represnt both viewpoints, not just one. -FoM
 * Yes, but in a way that doesn't say "This side is right, and this side is wrong". Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 23:13, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Well, thats the general idea behind NPOV...
 * That's a very strange definition of NPOV, since one side in this case is at the disadvantage of having to justify numbers that go with an ideology. Namely, that the Clone Wars were not, as shown in most previous sources, a big galaxy-wide series of battles, but were in fact a series of special operations performed by a tiny group of "elite troops". (Even though they already have three distinct groups of spec ops soldiers to do that: Clone Commandos, ARC troopers, Null ARC troopers)
 * Even authors using the 1.2 million clones in all, didn't treat the conflict like that, so this is a very recent invention by seemingly one specific author.
 * And there's the statement from Ryan Kaufman (co-author of the Insider 84 article that began this recent mess) where he says, quite clearly, that LFL did not want any total number for the Clone Army at all, and none would be affixed to cover the entire army.
 * This is quite understandable, as they are thinking of story potential and a modicum of continuity (i.e, if a big army gets sent to a specific planet in a new story, yet this would be supercede the "3 million clones" number due to other big battles being waged in other stories taking place at the same time, then this would limit the number of stories that could be told in the same time-frame. And I can't see why LFL would want that, so this policy makes business-sense.)
 * Even the biggest numbers given in canonical sources so far is "a million divisions at the start of the war, with milions more undergoing final evaluations". That fits in more with the "fantasy" or "myth-like" part of SW, as it doesn't give any final numbers to the Clone Army, only a rough estimate at the beginning of the war, with potential for great expansion as the conflict intensifies. It appeals both to "techies" like me, as well as to people who usually go "it's just fiction!" in these debates. A nice, big fantasy-number for a fantasy-story. "3 million clones", a fraction of WWII's Wehrmacht forces, who, as we all know, didn't even conquer or hold one continent, doesn't make any sort of sense, unless each trooper was magical. ;) VT-16 10:02, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Rewritten the discussion, aiming for NPOV. Perhaps we should go through it here in the discussion page, and fix on structure and phrasing that everyone finds acceptable, rather than editing over and again? --McEwok 16:00, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Now that's a good idea. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 19:19, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Should it worry you that you agree with me, Nebulax?

Well... VT-16 has reverted my rewrite, and made some further tweaks of his own: so... starting with his current version, here's the major points I think could be problematic. Once we've fixed on what the article should include, we can discuss the structure and phrasing.


 * Additionally, most stories made since AOTC have shown hundreds of battles, many of which with massive losses for the clones, thereby negating any argument that they represented a "small, elite, special operations force" compared with regular battle droids.

Since the GAR fights in some open battles, the phrase "small, elite, special operations force" isn't perhaps the best to use to describe them? Fair enough - I agree! I assume the phrase is from Karen Traviss, and I'd be interested to know the exact context of the line...

... but I'm not quite sure what this particular point has to do with the question of the size of the GAR.

Speaking for myself I certainly don't doubt that there were major battles throughout the Clone Wars with hundreds of thousands of clones deployed together in planetary assaults and sieges. I'm pretty sure that a number of battles of this sort are part of canon. But - and here's the fundamental point - it's entirely possible for a GAR of three million to fight in "hundreds of battles" and suffer "massive losses".

How big is a "big" battle? What proof is there that more than a few thousand clones fought at most "major battles" in the Clone Wars? Has anyone taken a detailed look at the battle-by-battle evidence yet? In discusisons I've seen, opponents of "three million" figure tend to cite just two pieces of evidence for large formations... so we'll come onto those next...
 * The largest figure given for the Grand Army so far, was a million clone divisions, which were being prepared at the start of the war, and with additional millions more undergoing evaluation.

I'm not aware of a direct reference to a million divisions at the start of the war - just to "clone divisions" plus "millions more"; and shouldn't the text acknowledge the fact that some fans think the "millions more" means millions of clones, with nothing more than a little sloppy grammar?
 * the account of the Battle of Muunilinst in the New Essential Chronology...

Well... all VT's numbers here are extrapolated from a single reference to "hundreds of assault ships"; the interpretation he presents as fact is contentious extrapolation, and while that interpretation itself should certainly be mentioned, so should the opposing view: the current text is a partisan argument representing one side of the debate. Why must "assault ships" must mean specifically Acclamator-class? And why must all the Acclamators (even if they exist) be fully loaded with 16,000 clones each? More seriously, can we really be sure that 3.2 million clones fought at Muunilinst, when multiple sources (the NEC itself among them) say that only 1.2 million were available for front-line operations in the first months of the war?
 * These 3 million troops would also be divided among ship-operators and ground troops, like the battle droids, as they were stated as being used to fill all kinds of different roles in both the army and the navy.

I'm curious as to where this comes from. The figure of three million clones corresponds to the nominal strength of the GAR according to its order-of-battle, something I pointed out in the version of the article that VT reverted; this also has the effect of rendering the question of "massive losses for the clones" irrelevant for the three million figure: it is the muster strength of the GAR, not the total number of clones!

Of course, this leaves the issues of droid numbers and relative scale compared to real-world combat: I agree that these should be mentioned - in fact, I'd insist on it! - but I also think that to present these as categorical reasons for discounting a GAR of three million is to misrepresent both the canon evidence and the range of fan POVs: in other words, there are (possible!) explanations for these issues, and the article as it currently stands is far from NPOV.

So to break that down: there are specific numbers for the GAR in the first year of the war, rising to a figure of three million, which corresponds to the full muster on the order of battle. There are debated interpretations of two specific phrases (ITW's "millions more" and "hundreds of assault ships" in the NEC), plus questions of scale and battledroid numbers, on which both sides of the debate have POVs that they find acceptable...

... and this is what I was trying to get across in the version VT reverted. Where did I go wrong?

Come on, everyone: let's get this article fixed and beautiful! --McEwok 19:43, 12 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Ironically, the 3 million number is conflicted by Traviss' own novel hard contact which repeatedly describes millions of clones being deployed on hundreds of worlds. - Lowkey


 * "Should it worry you that you agree with me, Nebulax?". It's easier to write something than say it. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 19:45, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Uh, let's not have questions in it, if possible. It looks unencyclopedic, in my opinion, if there are questions. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 19:54, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm not aware of a direct reference to a million divisions at the start of the war - just to "clone divisions" plus "millions more"; and shouldn't the text acknowledge the fact that some fans think the "millions more" means millions of clones, with nothing more than a little sloppy grammar?
 * The quote from ITWoAOTC is this:
 * "The first batch of clone divisions are ready for deployment; millions more are undergoing intensive performance evaluations."
 * The subject of this sentence is clone divisions, NOT individual clones. You CAN'T dismiss a perfectly fine sentence as a possible "grammatical error" without proof. That quote is from a Saxton book, you know damn well what he intended.


 * Why must "assault ships" must mean specifically Acclamator-class?
 * It's quite obvious given that Acclamators are colloquially known as "Republic assault ships". Furthermore, if this assault ships are really just small dropships or even LAATs as you minimalists want to believe, how the hell can such an attack rely on "sheer numbers" as the quote in the NEGC said it did?


 * And why must all the Acclamators (even if they exist) be fully loaded with 16,000 clones each?
 * The quote said that the ships were "groaning" from all the troops and war machines they were carrying. That's not the way you would describe a ship that's not even carrying the STANDARD complement that it was designed to carry.


 * 1) More seriously, can we really be sure that 3.2 million clones fought at Muunilinst, when multiple sources (the NEC itself among them) say that only 1.2 million were available for front-line operations in the first months of the war?
 * Muunilinst was NOT in the first month of the war, and there are sources that refute such stupidly small numbers. JimRaynor55 20:14, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Surlethe (Big Badass Starship) 22:38, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
 * My 2 cents: a "Grand" Army of the Republic of only 3 million men seems so incredibly small as to be insignificant in a war which (according to RotS) had multiple "sieges" in the Outer Rim. This is clearly a conflict which literally spans multiple entire worlds; and given both that, again in RotS, the clones do not possess a good kill ratio at all against droids, as well as the fact that, terrestrially, some modern militaries have had more than three million men, and none have ever come close to being able to single-handedly fight in a world-spanning conflict, it's quite clear that the 3e6 clone number is ridiculous.
 * Excellent points, JimRaynor. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 23:31, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

It should be noted that the stated size in Revenge of the Sith Incredible Cross Sections and General Grievous: Lord of War that the size of the droid army is in the quintillions. Yet in the CIS Shadowfeed dated in universe 14:2:14, article "Dooku Addresses 'Spurious' Republic Reports" (SW Insider 65, page 75) Count Dooku states "the forces on our borders and outlying colonial assets are admittedly facing greater numbers...". In other words, the GAR outnumbered the Confederate Army initially! - Lowkey
 * I don't need to repeat the forum debates here. Possibly, we could boil down each point and counterpoint that people make in this article, in some sort of bullet system. -LtNOWIS 00:22, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Lowkey, Dooku most likely wanted it to seem like they were outnumbered so their victory would appear as a great accomplishment (after all, Dooku was promised by Palpatine that they would win...). Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 00:50, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
 * From this address, Dooku seems to be admitting that the reports are true and they are facing greater numbers, but that victory will still be at hand. If he said anything else, wouldn't reports from the frontlines conflict with his words and make him look stupid? Better to admit the problems but keep optimistic about it. He's got charisma and charm, you'd think him being truthful about something like this would only make him look better in the Separatists' eyes. Their "great leader" standing firm in the face of danger. Adding to this, is that at the time right before the Second Battle of Coruscant, the Republic had driven the Confederacy back towards the Outer Rim again. How anything on a galactic scale can be "driven back" by 3 million troops, is unknown to me. As for the CW as a whole, there's Lucas' prologue from Shatterpoint, but I'm not sure people are interested in the view of the guy who made the films. ;) VT-16 10:44, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Quote: "...the entire need for the clone army rose from the fact that the Republic had too few conventional soldiers to fight the Separatists." What's the source for this? I thought they needed the clones because you can't raise a conventional army in secret, and because the clones could be counted on for Order 66. -LtNOWIS 05:52, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
 * According to Labyrinth of Evil which detailed Sifo-Dyas' backstory, he did order the clone army because he worried the Republic was facing dark times (i.e wouldn't be prepared with conventional forces) VT-16 10:34, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

George Lucas' quote
I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt and posting the words of the man himself (from the opening of Shatterpoint), hoping they will be useful:

Prologue

The Clone Wars by George Lucas

''For a thousand years, the Old Republic prospered and grew under the wise rule of the Senate and the protection of the venerable Jedi Knights. But as often happens when wealth and power grow beyond all reasonable proportion, an evil fueled by greed arose. The massive organs of commerce mushroomed in power, the Senate became corrupt, and an ambitious senator named Palpatine was voted Supreme Chancellor. Most disturbingly, the Dark Lords of the Sith reappeared, after a thousand years of seeming absence.''

''In the midst of this turmoil, a separatist movement was formed under the leadership of the charismatic former Jedi, Count Dooku. By promising an alternative to the corruption and greed that was rotting the Republic from within, Dooku was able to persuade thousands of star systems to secede from the Republic. Unbeknownst to most of his followers, Dooku was himself a Dark Lord of the Sith, acting in collusion with his master, Darth Sidious, who, over the years, had struck an unholy alliance with the greater forces of commerce and their private droid armies.''

''The turning point came when Count Dooku lured the unsuspecting Jedi into a trap on the desolate planet of Geonosis. Having just discovered the existence of a clone army that had been secretly commissioned for the Republic ten years earlier, the Jedi were well prepared when they confronted the Separatists on Geonosis. But their victory in that heated battle was pyrric. It would prove to be merely the opening salvo in a war that would spread like fire across the galaxy and engulf thousands of star systems in the legendary Clone Wars.''

''Having already been granted emergency powers in the face of the growing threat, Chancellor Palpatine used his ironclad grip on the Senate to seize even greater authority, all in the name of security. To address the urgent military needs of the Republic, he enlisted the Jedi Knights as generals to command the Clone Army. The Jedi valiantly accepted their assignment, though never having served as military commanders, they were unaccustomed to the wages of war. Their ranks, once sufficient to serve as the guardians of peace and justice, were spread periously thin in the face of this unthinkable challenge. Their relationship with Palpatine grew strained. At the same time, they felt their own power waning even as their most promising new apprentice completed his training and stood poised to fulfill his destiny as the Chosen One who would bring balance to the Force.''

''The Clone Wars raged for three long years, tearing the Republic apart and spawning countless tales of heroism, bravery, treachery, and betrayal as both sides fought to defend their ideals. As dedicated as the Separatists were in their resolve to create a new order to replace the failing Republic, the Jedi were equally determined to preserve the Republic and defeat the Sith, who they understood all too well were the masterminds of the Separatist movement. They still believed in the Republic, still deemed it a Republic worth saving. Their faith, which gave them superhuman strength in the face of mind-boggling power of the enemy, had yet to be shaken.''

VT-16 10:55, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Thank you for providing us with this quote from GL. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 11:22, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Random linebreak for ease of editing
Lowkey: Ironically, the 3 million number is conflicted by Traviss' own novel hard contact which repeatedly describes millions of clones being deployed on hundreds of worlds.
 * Quotes would be useful, because as it stands, I don't see vague references to millions of clones and hundreds of worlds directly contradicting more specific references to a GAR with a standing strength of three million....

Nebulax: ''Uh, let's not have questions in it, if possible. It looks unencyclopedic, in my opinion, if there are questions.''
 * The disagreements are part of the reality of the topic. They should be explained. To do less is to be inaccurate, and misrepresent what's happening. However, I'd add that explicit canon figures for a GAR of three million are also canon, and the arguments raised against these are all based on inference. Some fans might not like this, but it's what we have to work with.

JimRaynor55: ''The subject of this sentence is clone divisions, NOT individual clones. You CAN'T dismiss a perfectly fine sentence as a possible "grammatical error" without proof. That quote is from a Saxton book, you know damn well what he intended''
 * No, I don't know what he intended. And if he did intend millions of clone divisions, I can't say that LFL did: that sentence may have been a compromise between Saxton's POV and LFL's requirements, or even an attempt to subvert canon. More to the point, that sentence must be taken alongside the repeated, explicit references to a GAR of three million men. It's entirely clear what that is meant to mean, and that affects how we must read the reference to "millions more" supplimenting the original "clone divisions".

JimRaynor55: ''It's quite obvious given that Acclamators are colloquially known as "Republic assault ships". Furthermore, if this assault ships are really just small dropships or even LAATs as you minimalists want to believe, how the hell can such an attack rely on "sheer numbers" as the quote in the NEGC said it did?''
 * Well, the NEC is supposedly a history written under the Galactic Alliance, and this particular passage is rather rhetorical, describing Muunilinst as "an impregnable castle keep". There is no evidence to treat this passage as more than a quickly-written impression of the battle of Muunilinst: "Republic assault ships" doesn't necessarily mean Acclamators, and "sheer numbers" doesn't necessarily mean more than a Sector Army or two. And when the passage here is set against the explicit evidence for a GAR of three million (or at this stage in the war, 1.2 million), then the ambiguity of meaning must come into play.

JimRaynor55: ''The quote said that the ships were "groaning" from all the troops and war machines they were carrying. That's not the way you would describe a ship that's not even carrying the STANDARD complement that it was designed to carry.''
 * They could easily be carrying large, specialist siege weaponry, rather than large numbers of infantry?

JimRaynor55: ''Muunilinst was NOT in the first month of the war, and there are sources that refute such stupidly small numbers. ''
 * I said "in the first months of the war?", not first month. Muunilinst is before Shatterpoint, when the GAR is still 1.2 million. And no, there are no sources that refute the canon numbers; there are interpretations that challenge such small numbers. I'm cool with that, though. Why do you have a problem with allowing your POV to take its rightful place in the wider context of evidence and fan opinion?

Surlethe: ''... it's quite clear that the 3e6 clone number is ridiculous.''
 * You're definately entitled to that opinion. However, it is just your opinion. You'll note that you have nothing specific, and the canon numbers do allow multiple major battles with hundreds of thousands of troops to be running concurrently with thousands of smaller operations... to say nothing of other Republic forces, and the Navy, with its impressive orbital-bombardment capabilities!

VT-16: I'm not sure how that intro from Lucas is relevant. It contains nothing specific to countermand a GAR of three million...

... and in the end, that's the point. Canon says 200k, then 1.2k, rising to three million. Canon says nothing that categorically countermands these numbers. Some fans dislike these numbers, and they could certainly be short of the total in one way or another (in fact, even if taken as hard and final, they're just the GAR order of battle, not counting casualties or the Navy)... but as it stands, these are the numbers that we have to work with at the minute. That may not be everyone's ideal situation, but it is the canon scenario. Where's the problem? --McEwok 12:14, 17 April 2006 (UTC) Besides, in the end, what is the Clone Wars but a setup for Palpatine to get into power?. Remember that he controled BOTH the Republic and the CIS. So there was not any war at all, simply Palps's plot to sluaghter the Jedi and to become Emperor of the GFFA.
 * Here we go with the quotes from other people... Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 12:20, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
 * As for what I said that you quoted, you can rephrase questions into statements that still gets a point across. Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 17:36, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Oh, I pretty much agree, if that's what you meant; there wasn't a single direct question or question-mark in my version,  so I presumed that by "questions", you meant the highlighting of uncertainties and ambiguities. No worries, sorry for the misunderstanding. --McEwok 16:36, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Oops, I thought there had been a queston mark in there... My bad. Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 16:43, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
 * No worries. Due to the lack of replies/discussion, I'm going to revise/revert the article later today, though.... --McEwok 09:53, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Be careful, then... Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 19:00, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm not interested in more fanon garbage taking center place. You already took out canonical information from this page once. I will report you to the administration if it happens again. VT-16 06:54, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
 * That's a pretty convicing arguement. Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 11:06, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
 * This page will soon get some more, there's people I know who are working on a big article and will possibly put it on a blog on the OS. Can't reprint it of course, but I will put up some bullet-points with stuff taken from the dozens of sources they've gone through. There's so many books and quotes mentioned, I think few people debating this have taken time to read them all. Adding it all up, there's little reason to keep thinking 3 million can explain all of it. (Though, I suspect some debaters long since realised this but keep going just to get people riled up. Logic and concern for continuity has little to do with it.) VT-16 14:20, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, if it's a lot of good stuff, we could always use it. Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 20:33, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
 * My only concern here is to do what I can to keep the material on Wookieepedia canon-compliant and NPOV. If it was up to me, I'd have made the GAR much bigger, but the explicit canon numbers are in the low millions, and as such, they constrain the continuity.
 * This is the way I look at it: the hard numbers define the possible interpretation of the other evidence, which is less clear-cut; evidence like the NEC's "hundreds of assault ships" and ITW's "millions more". Now, these lines could imply hundreds of fully-loaded Acclamators and millions of multi-regiment battlegroups, but they could also mean hundreds of small craft and mere millions of troopers; and since there are also sources stating a GAR of a few million troops, the latter interpretation is IMHO necessary to maintain overall continuity. It's true that we then have a massive disparity in numbers with both battledroids and real-world armies, but these comparisons aren't really like-for-like.
 * That said, though, I'll wait and see if any new evidence is produced by the new analysis. --McEwok 09:54, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
 * "My only concern here is to do what I can to keep the material on Wookieepedia canon-compliant and NPOV". Well, most people don't think you do a good job at it. Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 11:08, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I would like to add that the regular Clone Troopers averaged 200 droids a head. [Source: Guide to the GAR]

In conclusion, It does not matter how many CTs there were in the GAR, The clones are simpaly meant to create a war so Palpatine could get his excuse to transform the Republic into an Empire.
 * Wrong. Palpatine didn't control everything in the Clone Wars. It did matter how many clones and droids were in action. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 00:56, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Even with Palpatine starting and effectively ending the war, he still didn't have full control over it nor did he influence everything. The only times we see him interfere, is when he wants someone specifically taken out or he needs to cover his tracks/ensure his own survival (and doing so with simply feeding information to the Confederacy). The only extent of his "chess playing" is to begin and end the war when necessary, keep it going long enough, and keep himself out of trouble. VT-16 17:02, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
 * So don't say that it didn't matter how many clones there were. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 20:00, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree with VT-16. The "chess game" of the Clone Wars is more like Palpatine telling two people to play a game of chess, and then whispering good moves to each side to keep the game going. Finally, when he's done, he has the pawns kill one of the players. Jobiwan7 14:32, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Not really. In the "chess game" known as the Clone Wars, Palpatine took breaks from "giving advice" to each side every so often. He didn't tell each player what to do at every single move. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 19:58, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
 * To keep the chess analogy going, I didn't mean Palpatine came up with every move; he just had a "suggestion" now and then. Jobiwan7 20:16, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, he didn't suggest everything. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 20:17, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I know--I'm trying to agree with you! My point was that Palpatine doesn't control everything. Jobiwan7 21:12, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Okay, you were confusing me for a second... Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 23:03, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Anyhoo, on the chess metaphor, What the GAR is in this chess game is a second chess set crreated by Palps so there IS a chess match to be played.
 * I am quite pleased with the inteligent responses my statement is receiveing, this says alot about the wookiepedia community!

Seeing that Palps is the leader of both the CIS and the Republic. It is kinda like he is playing chess with himself [Palps] actually. Sure he lets suborbinates take care of the more insignificant details. The overal stratergy for either side is his to decide. So if the clones started losing, He can make the Republic do a few good moves, the CIS do a few bad moves. and everythings back into place.
 * No. He wasn't playing himself. He didn't control the entire war. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 02:18, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
 * The few chess-aspects that exist, are there for Palpatine to accomplish two important things (one of which keeps getting ignored by a certain group of people): 1) Devastate the galaxy so the broken worlds will call out for a "strong man" to take control and establish order. 2) Separate the Jedi Knights as much as possible so they will be helpless when order 66 is given.
 * Both of these goals are easier to accomplish with a galactic conflict than with "brush-fire wars". And both are of course noted by the man who created SW, George Lucas (in the intro to Shatterpoint and in ROTS). VT-16 10:23, 20 May 2006 (UTC)


 * True. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 12:00, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I believe another of Palpatine's goals was to weaken or eliminate some of the stronger alien speices; Neimodians etc. Thrawn3.14 14:43, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, he certainly made them enemies of the Republic. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 20:50, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Edit-skirmish :P
I see there's been a slight edit-skirmish going on lately. Now I'm not sure where the one person was getting his numbers from, so I can't comment on that before he does. (Was it from the parade at the end of AOTC? That would be a good candidate for seeing how the army was divided into units. At least at the start of the war). VT-16 15:32, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
 * But how could one tell the number of troops in squads, companies, and battalions? Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 17:15, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
 * That's what I'm trying to find out. I suspect it has something to do with the way the clones are divided into columns during the parades in AOTC, but I'll have to ask the person who put it in. VT-16 19:15, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't think that one could determine the numbers of troops in squads, companies, or battalions by watching the movie. And also, anothing thing: Battle droids aren't directly comparable to clones. There were a ton of differences. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 19:43, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Clone Base
Where was the Headquarters (Main Base, Central Command, whatever you want to call it) of the Grand Army of the Republic? I'm assuming it was either on Kamino, the clone homeworld, or Coruscant, the Republic capital...but which? Also, was their a single General of the Army... or simply was the Supreme Chancellor in charge...or else who? -- Wolfdog
 * First: Coruscant. Second: Supreme Chancellor Palpatine. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 01:09, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Oh thanks. But would you know where on Coruscant? There is no specific central command ever mentioned unless in EU. Is there a specific building or anything?
 * I believe there was a building, though I'm not entirely sure. Republic Commando: Triple Zero says something, I believe. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 12:14, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
 * There are a number of military structures like the one we see Yoda and Obi-Wan departing from in RotS all over Coruscant, established post-AotC. The Executive Building also apparently looks out over a parade ground - Kwenn 20:10, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
 * True. But what is the main command building? Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 20:11, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Numbers
Maybe the 200,000 units Lama Su mentioned were organized units instead of individual clones. This would account for the discrepency in the numbers. It would also allow the clones to fight on numerous worlds and suffer havey losses. Has anyone noticed that the clones, even though they are highly trained, are used for nothing but cannon fodder? Look at the Battle of Kashyyyk, they put like 50 snipers on a single tree branch.
 * "are used for nothing but cannon fodder". Not really. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 17:52, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, they are. There's nothing that separates ordinary troopers from ordinary battledroids. They're both complete cannon fodder. Special forces do not equal an entire army. The only difference is more creativity on the clones' part, but nothing more. VT-16 20:43, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
 * No. Clones are very different from droids. Clones can learn from their mistakes. Clones can develop personalities. What can droids do? They take orders from their commanders. That's about it. They do not care when many of their kind are destroyed. Take CT-914. He was upset when CT-915 was killed on Drongar. Clones cared. Droids didn't. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 21:47, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Droids as of AOTC are independent-minded and can learn: AOTC novel, ROTS VD. Kuralyov 05:32, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Battledroids do develop personalities, just watch the prequels, especially ROTS. The droid that gave Grievous the two lightsabres reacted to his rudeness, the pilot droids tried to flee when Obi-Wan and Anakin got free and Grievous had to tell them to stay at their posts despite being cut down. Then there's the two droids fleeing from the Acklay in AOTC. :P VT-16 12:59, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Point, but did droids care when another droid was destroyed? Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 13:28, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
 * No, they were brushed out of the way if they hindered operations. There was also a recycling system in place for collecting reusable parts for new droids. VT-16 14:25, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Exactly. Therefore, clone troopers =/= battle droids. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 15:36, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
 * You do realize those two points make battledroids superior as regular troopers, right? They're pros, not cons. VT-16 01:19, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
 * You yourself said that clone troopers are identical to battle droids. I've been making points to show that's incorrect. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 01:47, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
 * But it sounds like you treat droids << clones, which I pointed out isn't necessarily the case. Both groups have their pros and cons, but so far I've seen nothing to suggest an average clone can one-up an average droid. We've mostly just followed Jedi or spec force clones throughout many of the CW stories, and since they're main characters, they're even less likely to kick the bucket. VT-16 13:12, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm saying that clones are superior to droids in some ways. I'm not just talking about how their are in combat. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 13:17, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
 * But it is combat that ultimately matters the most to these two groups. Not their social life. VT-16 14:37, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I was only arguing this: "There's nothing that separates ordinary troopers from ordinary battledroids". Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 16:47, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Fine. Conceeded. VT-16 02:00, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
 * But you are correct that they are basically the same on the battlefield. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 20:28, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Reasons for blankings
''owever, the reliability and quality of mercenaries and bounty hunters would not be high, and having large-scale non-clone troops available from the outset of the war would eliminate the need for a clone army or a controversy over the Military Creation Act. It should also be stated that the sources that depict non-clone forces prior to Geonosis are all extremely small-scale conflicts and minor battles.''

with its own commander stating that non-clones are far less than equals to battle droids

This was removed becuase it wasnt in contention. The quality and quantity of mercenaries, bounty hunters and soldiers isnt an issue to the numbers debate. Some are good, some are bad, given the population of a galaxy the number of possible recruited and conscripted is very very big. It doesnt matter that they were bad just that they were more numerous than the droids army.

Additionally, Traviss's own Triple Zero states that (at least up to that point of the war) all Acclamators are fully crewed by clones; combined with the twelve Acclamators present at Geonosis, that would mean that around 713,000 clones (or 23% the entire fighting force of the Republic) were tied up as largely noncombatant ship crews.

Cant find this quote, regarding "all acclamators" are crewed by clones. Additionally, some accs were crewed by non-clones accdng to Jedi Starfighter.

''ROTS:ICS also noted that because of millions of Separatist warships being locked up in battles with Republic fleets, only a few thousand frigates and destroyers could assault the galactic capital towards the end of the war, accompanying dozens of battleships. The Revenge of the Sith novel states (from the out-of-unvierse perspective of the narrator) that the CIS had pursued the war to that point through sheer force of numbers, with its droids outnumbering the clones.''

Not really important because everybody knows the droids does outnumber the clones.

although clones have been shown being gunned down with similar ease.

Another unimportant part... Clones can heal, droids get destroyed.

rom Star Wars Republic 50: The Battle of Kamino, a single droideka destroys an entire squad of ARC troopers and clone trainees.

Blatantly lie... the droideka kills one arc and none of the the trainees.
 * You know, you could have explained this in the first place and the page wouldn't have been locked... Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 14:36, 25 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Errr... followed the "Be bold" rule... --Razzy1319 20:31, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Yet a bold move like that needs some explanation for those who might dispute it. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 21:43, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I have always been someone who does stuff for a reason, I was more concerned by the fact that it was protected when I would have explained my actions when asked to do so, as if the mod assumed me to be a stupid and edit-mad user who would condone an edit war when all I was doing was removing unnecessary information. --Razzy1319 01:32, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
 * All of us (or at least most of us) do stuff for a reason here, Razz. I don't claim to have read the complete section here, so I won't speak to anything specific about it. But I do have a general rule I can recommend: don't wait till you're asked to explain stuff, especially if it's huge. When I add anything to a page, more often than not I put the source for my addition (down to the page number of what I sourced it from - usually a book - if available) in the Summary spot just below the edit box. That way if anybody cries foul, they can check that out and go "...Oh. Never mind..."

Our community here is kind of like the international scientific establishment. If one guy comes up with a theory that he thinks works, there are a hundred or even a thousand other guys happy to subject it to the most stringent analysis, break it apart if they can. And it's nothing personal; the objective is getting it right. And it works; it's the ultimate self-correcting system. It's not that different among professional historians, or even us amateurs here. If I add something that's just out there, the mob will fricasee me, unless they can see my backup right there and confirm that my data's good. So my advice is, "Be bold... but bring backup." Erik Pflueger 02:19, 26 June 2006 (UTC) Droids can be put back together again or recycled as we saw in TPM. When clones die, they stay dead. VT-16 20:47, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Razzy, think about it this way: You might know why you did it, but everyone else doesn't. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 13:33, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Clones can heal, droids get destroyed


 * So when is this page gonna be unlock so that I can remove the parts I have to remove? --Razzy1319 17:21, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
 * You can either a) ask an admin to unlock it and do the edit yourself or b) ask an admin to do the edit for you and then unlock it. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 18:48, 4 July 2006 (UTC)