Talk:Mandalore the Ultimate/Archive1

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Discrepancy
Umm... how could he have succeeded a man that lived 1000 years after him? --Imperialles 21:02, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Oh crap. Just realized, sorry. --Imperialles 21:04, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Species
Was Ultimate's species really Mandalorian? For some reason I presumed he was a human. - Sikon [ Talk ] 14:47, 9 Oct 2005 (UTC)
 * You can see him unmasked on the Mandalorian (species) page. QuentinGeorge 20:28, 19 Oct 2005 (UTC)

KotOR II?
Was he the Mandalore from the 2nd KotOR game? ----Inmobilus 16:32, 19 Oct 2005 (UTC)
 * No, that's Canderous Ordo. QuentinGeorge 20:28, 19 Oct 2005 (UTC)

Retconned Helmet
Am I right in thinking that the silver helmet Canderous wore is supposed to be the new retconned version the very same helmet that we see MtU putting on this picture? I keep saying it is, but some people agree with me. Canderous *does* say that it is the helmet that was worn by Mandalore and the "Mandalore who served Exar Kun". Thoughts?
 * There's no need for it to be retconned. It's either likely that a) Mandalore the Ultimate wore more than one helmet or b) Canderous has repainted and rebuilt it after Revan killed Mandalore. QuentinGeorge 21:07, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
 * By the way, nothing of the visual aspects of Tales of the Jedi has been retconned, despite what the developers of the games may have intended. Both the History of the Mandalorians and the New Essential Chronology still have the same visual depictions of the events. As you can see below:
 * 300px
 * 300px
 * QuentinGeorge 21:23, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Yeah I've seen those pictures before. Pretty ridiculous trying to marry TotJ aesthetics up with KotOR if you ask me, since the technology looks millennia apart and the Mandalorians call their stuff "state of the art" in TotJ: The Sith War, but whatever. I will continue to take solace in this quote:

"So if you want to argue LucasArts aesthetics vs. the old LucasArts aesthetics, go ahead. Call them about K1. Call them about K2. Do not hesitate. Tell them of the horrible, bloody crimes being committed in their backyard, which they have seen, yet somehow must be mistaken in their decisions. Tell them what fools they are for making that decision and how Star Wars historical accuracy has been ruined for you, sullied, dragged through the dirt. Tell them how it has crippled their reputation in your eyes for centuries, and how it has left a wound in the Force - a wound that echoes still. I think that only then will they see that what they have done is wrong... and that the balance in the Force must be rectified."

- Chris Avellone

Hehe.

As for "more than one helmet"... uh... doesn't that kind of throw the entire "the person who finds the helmet" tradition out of wack? Since there'd be a lot of helmets to find. It would be pretty funny though. (Ulicus 15:33, 27 May 2006 (UTC))
 * Just a side note: "By the way, nothing of the visual aspects of Tales of the Jedi has been retconned", if that's true, why does the most recent image of Exar Kun feature a very modern looking lightsaber? (217.135.139.111 01:23, 6 June 2006 (UTC))
 * No idea about lightsabers, but since KOTOR #8 features Mandalore wearing the very same helmet he wore in TOTJ, as well as some older-looking Mandalorian technology, it's pretty clear that the old look wasn't retconned. - Sikon (Vacation) 16:36, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Canderous = Filthy Liar
As can be seen, Ultimate is clearly wearing the same helmet he and Indomitable wore in the Tales of the Jedi comics, not the one Canderous is wearing decades later. Hence, as suspected, Canderous is fibbing about "recovering the helmet of Mandalore the Ultimate". Case closed. QuentinGeorge 21:01, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
 * One can presume that KOTOR comics will touch upon this as the writers stated in the past of the Neo-Crusaders. And this goes without saying, but I see you have yourself a copy of the unreleased comic. You holding out on us? ;) -- Redemption Talk [[Image:Oldrepublic.jpg|15px]] 22:22, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
 * It could be the same helmet. It is possible that Canderous modified the helmet or we can just mark it down as an error caused by game mechanics.– 22:43, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
 * "I see you have yourself a copy of the unreleased comic. You holding out on us?" No he isn't, the preview is up :)--Sauron18 22:45, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
 * This is why DarkHorse should put the preview button on the actual comic page. Not the front. Anyway, still. Who says that Mandalore the Ultimates helmet wasn't destroyed and then he replaced it with something more sturdy? We haven't actually seen Revan kill Mandalore. -- Redemption Talk [[Image:Oldrepublic.jpg|15px]] 23:08, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Oh, it's certainly possible, but, as you say, we haven't seen it yet. What we DO know is that Canderous doesn't have the helmet Ultimate got from Indomitable. QuentinGeorge 07:35, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Basically. Though if what I suggested comes out to be what happens then Canderous woulnd't be a filthy liar now would he? -- Redemption Talk [[Image:Oldrepublic.jpg|15px]] 15:43, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, Canderous' helmet had the same tubes coming out fro,m the bottom. It just doesn't have the spider-web design on it. That could have easily been chisiled off or something. Don't ask me why though. Jasca Ducato Sith Council (Sith campaign) 08:37, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Didn't Darth Revan take the helmet after killing Mandalore, and wore it himself, until he gave it to Canderous Ordo, before leaving? That's the gist I got from the game and other KOTOR sources, anyways.  Sadriel Fett (Mando'a) 01:09, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
 * No, it would have been interesting, but the helmets are not the same. Revan's helmet looks nothing like the one worn by Canderous nor the one worn by Mandalore the Ultimate/Mandalore the Indomitable.– 01:19, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Maybe Canderous has the helmet, but just does not wear it because it is weak and falling apart? I mean, it was rumored to have been worn by Mandalore the First, thus meaning it could be a few thousands of years old.

Main image dispute
There is a disagreement over which image to user as the main image. The images in question are:

Originally, I put image B as the main image because a( it is a full body shot, b( it is from his most recent and notable (in my opinion) appearance, and c( I feel it better represents the character. For these reasons, I feel that it corresponds more closely to Wookieepedia convention and is an overall better picture.  A while later, I found that it had been changed to image A.  While I appreciate the importance of having an image of Mandalore unmasked, and feel that it should definitely be in the article, I do not feel that it is as suitable a main image as image B.  I changed it yet again, putting B as the main image while still keeping A in the article, but I notice now that it was reverted.  Therefore, I would like to have a discussion on the issue. -  Angel Blue  (Holonet) 13:44, 17 October 2006 (PDT) I'd prefer this as the main image: Image:Mandalore the Ultimate with flames.JPG (Ulicus 19:16, 13 December 2006 (UTC))
 * I thought head shots were preferred to full body shots, though I have seen several major articles with full body shots for their main images.-- Lord Oblivion Sith holocron[[Image:Oldsith.png|30px]] 16:09, 17 October 2006 (PDT)
 * The reason I put the unmasked picture in is because I believe it is better to show the actual face of the person than a mask. For example, we show A'Sharad Hett unmasked, not wearing his Ghorfa suit. Also, picture B contains a number of disturbing speech bubbles. --Imp 16:19, 17 October 2006 (PDT)
 * It's a freakin' sweet picture, but we should probably use the new version of the art piece. Now, if only I could get my hands on a high-res scan of the golden helmet version&hellip; --Imp 20:09, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Oh, scary. I like it. -- SFH 21:43, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Oh, yeah Imp, for sure - I didn't realise the new version was around :D (Ulicus 02:53, 14 December 2006 (UTC))
 * I know it's not high-res, but I've stuck it in for now. (Ulicus 03:00, 14 December 2006 (UTC))
 * Thanks Redemption! :D (Ulicus 03:21, 14 December 2006 (UTC))

Expansion
Could you provide sources for those quotes, Ulicus? Other than that, very nice work. =) --Imp 06:13, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
 * A lot of it is stuff from the Mandalorian Wars section with a bit of tweaking to be more MtUcentric, so I can't really take that much credit. Anyway, I've sourced the quotes in the article. Another couple of quotes that I used for information were:

"I was one of the best youth warriors in clan Ordo in my time. No one before me had mastered the power of our Basilisk war droids as quickly as I had. Except Mandalore himself of course."

- Canderous Ordo

I thought it would be nice to have at least a little bit of MtU's pre-Mandalore days and the above is pretty much the only thing I could find.

"After that last battle, those of us that survived were stripped of our weapons, our armor, and our Basilisks."

- Canderous

The reference for the bit towards the end about the mandalorians being stripped of stuff.

"When Revan executed Mandalore before our eyes, he cast Mandalore's helmet away, denied it to us."

- Canderous Ordo

Obsidian seem to think Revan executed Mandalore, Bioware seem to think he killed him in single combat. Annoying, but meh. It can be reconciled as "Revan owned Mandalore so badly that it was basically an execution". That or, "Revan pillaged him, kept him alive and then executed him in front of all his followers" - the latter actually makes more sense to me, especially in the context of the Mandalorian weapons and armour being stripped away as detailed in KotOR but it didn't jive as well with the Mandalorian Wars article here.

Ah well, it's not perfect but the guy's flaming mask image of doom inspired me so much that I felt he deserved more text the little amount he had. (Ulicus 06:41, 14 December 2006 (UTC))
 * Great work Ulicus! It looks like I am going to need to modify some parts of the Mandalorian Wars article. I could never seem to find a source that stated that Mandalore was executed before his followers&hellip;– 06:57, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
 * What's the source for Image:Darth Revan Cropped.JPG? --Imp 15:56, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
 * The "Ultimate successor" section should either be expanded to include the Unknown Mandalore, merged into the above section, or be removed entirely. --Imp 21:42, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Done. The reason I called the section "Ultimate successor" in the first place (apart from the play on words) was to cover the fact that Canderous wasn't the direct successor, though I realise that I probably should have made it more explicit. I've also included the fact that many mandalorians seem to have been unaware of his existance (since, you know, Obsidian slipped up in KotoR II)(Ulicus 18:23, 15 December 2006 (UTC))

POV Issues
I think there is a POV issue with the following paragraph:

Disappointingly, for Mandalore and his warriors, in the early days of war the Republic relied heavily upon "shameful" defensive tactics, believing that their adversaries would not use "appropriate force" against military bases within and adjacent to majory civilian population centers.

It really needs to be rephrased, as it currently seems to make judgement statements on the morality of the Republic's tactics. (Leaving aside the fact that there's perfectly logical reasons for military bases to be close to civilian centres). QuentinGeorge 09:13, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't think the paragraph is POV so much as it describes a POV. The moral judgements are made in quotation marks and it's made clear that it's describing what the Mandalorians thought. As for the civilian population centres, maybe it's not the best way of phrasing it, but it is made clear in game that the Republic made a point of using cities/civilian areas tactically when they perhaps shouldn't have done:-

"I don't particularly enjoy wiping out worlds for its own sake, but the cowardly tactics the Republic defenders used left us little choice. Hiding in the homes of civilians. Using families as shields. Thinking we would not use appropriate force on their bases inside major cities. They underestimated our resolve and what measures are acceptable in war. Those who cannot defend themselves should not be around those who can in battle. If annihilating a city is the kind of power it takes to overwhelm a Republic shield device, then that's what we did. Necessary force to destroy all opposition."

- Canderous

In Mandalorian eyes, it was stupid for the Republic to think stuff like; "Oh, lets place the generators for our military shields inside a civilian area that's nothing to do with the war, the Mandalorians won't be willing to kill innocent people." That's all it's trying to get across. Basically, what is being said is; if the Republic had just come out and fight head on from the start, the worlds that the mandalorians left destroyed in their wake probably wouldn't have been. (Ulicus 16:11, 14 December 2006 (UTC))

Death
It says Revan fought Mandalore in single combat. Was it in front of witnesses? And did Revan execute him, not kill him in the duel? Jedi Striker 30 Decemeber 2006 00:20 (UTC)
 * Yes, it was a duel in front of witnesses, some who would later describe it as an "execution." --Imp 11:09, 30 December 2006 (UTC)