Talk:Form IV/Legends

"Form IV: Ataru" seems redundant. Perhaps move this to "Ataru" and include that the two names are interchangeable in the lead. --SparqMan 03:32, 24 Jul 2005 (UTC)

Obi-Wan with Ataru vs. Anakin
I noticed that one of you - probably without any background knowledge - deleted the line which said Kenobi had switched back to Ataru in his final duel against Anakin. I doubt it, too, but I think that deleting without any evidence is unfair. We should have at least discussed it. Before you all pounce on me, let me tell you that it is not me who gave that line in and protest because MY line was deleted. You can make a search if you do not believe me, but you would only waste some hours whihc could be spent doing something more valuable from your life.

I have only seen Episode III once, but I remember that Obi-Wan used the Force in that duel much, compared to how much he uses the Force usually. But this does not mean he switched back to Ataru. It seemed to me he was on the defence until he found the higher ground. I read the novelization twice but do not remember if it is mentioned there that Ataru was used, but I did not find anything to prove it is not true (for example the novelization does not directly state that Obi-Wan used Soresu. This is my opinion on the matter. I do not revert edit, because TopAce, 15:31, 27 Oct 2005, (GMT +1)
 * a) I also disagree with it -> It is illogical that you face an opponent that is more powerful than you are (in theory) and you use a combat style you have not practiced for a decade.
 * b) I do not have any source which clearly states that Obi-Wan used Ataru
 * c) It is better to have an article which mentions nothing than one which mentions something unproven and thus disputable.

Obi Wan uses a variant of Ataru called Sokan in that duel.
 * TopAce, Obi-Wan still practiced Ataru! EP3 Visual Dictionary had said so, and EP3 Novel has Obi-Wan using Ataru to face Dooku! Plus Obi-Wan could possibly applied Sokan to cripple Vader in the last minute. And although Obi-Wan is The Master of Soresu, he could & should apply Ataru if the situation requires it - Vader's mastery of Djem So was the best, but he still applied Shien on Mustafar, which was confirmed by the novel. Darth Kevinmhk 16:31, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Please don't post in the middle of someone else's post. Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 19:01, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I dont think there is a source which exactly state that Obi-Wan applied Sokan on Mustafar. Darth Kevinmhk 02:04, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Perhaps the anon could provide us with one. Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 11:10, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Last paragraph
Count Dooku stated that he understood "every weakness of the Ataru form, with its ridiculous acrobatics". Dooku's Makashi would counter Ataru by launching a series of flashing thrusts toward the enemy's legs to draw the opponent into a flipping overhead leap, so that Dooku could burn through the enemy's spine from kidneys to shoulder blades with his Makashi attack. The Count applied this tactic against Obi-Wan Kenobi onboard Invisible Hand, who blocked Dooku's blows with Soresu.

Do you think it is necessary to note? I think it would be more appropriate in either the Makashi or the Soresu article. - TopAce 11:23, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree. Admiral J. Nebulax 21:27, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
 * My opinion is keeping the paragraph here. The paragraph focus on the so-called weakness of Ataru and how it can be countered. Soresu does not appear much in the paragraph, and the Makashi article is already focus on comparing Makashi and Djem So, so I suggest Makashi & Ataru comparison can be placed here. Darth Kevinmhk 04:00, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Behind the Scenes: Cin Drallig?
From the description of both Ataru and other forms, it doesn't seem to me that Cin Drallig (in the game, you can actually tell) uses Ataru. I'd think that Serra Keto does, because she's very acrobatic, but Cin Drallig doesn't really display an acrobatic techniques. It seems to me that he's using Juyo, because he's using staccato movements, but they're not dark like Vaapad. I think that the comment should be removed since it's speculation and seems unlikely. --Swali 23:04, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
 * While I agree it should be removed, it's a game. They probably really didn't give much thought to the forms of lightsaber combat. Admiral J. Nebulax 00:58, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I once read it - here - that Cin Drallig was a Makashi user. What has become of that line? He was known to be a good swordsman, one who taught a lot of Padawans how to wield a saber effectively. I don't think Ataru is an ideal choice for that. - TopAce 17:02, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Just remove it, then. Admiral J. Nebulax 20:19, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Palpatine using Ataru?
What's the source on Palpatine using Ataru? Furthermore, why--then--is there a conflict with the Djem So article that seems to say, for some reason, that Palpatine and Windu used Djem So in their duel? I'm more concerned about the sources--really--because I hope it's not visual intrepretation, which isn't valid for evidence. Even if it was, I would dispute that he uses Ataru anyway: his moves are far to abrupt and serpentine. --GrandAdmiralJello 20:48, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, Windu used Vaapad in the duel, not Djem So, so that's one wrong thing. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 21:48, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Hideously wrong, yes. So it really raises the question: are people simply guessing what forms are being used by visuals? Let's hope not. --GrandAdmiralJello 05:31, 13 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Palpatine used a mix of various forms... I remember reading it in the RotS novelization. I don't have it on me right now, though.. --Danik Kreldin 05:33, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I'll take you word for it. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 20:35, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
 * In the novelization, it describes Palpatine using Ataru - he's extremely agile, almost a blur, moving all around. Which is pretty much Ataru. Then I read somewhere he mixed some Juyo/Vaapad into it, though that may have just been on Wookieepedia. --Danik Kreldin 20:40, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Thank you for confirming the Ataru part. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 20:52, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Just wanna point out that no solid word was ever said about Sidious' actually style. Star Wars fans just observe and think it out - They observe Sidious' style in the Senate looks quite like Yoda, and the novel described Sidious moving like a blur. Fans thought Sidious used Form VII because he is Maul's master, and he applied some concept of Form VII during the lightning struggle with Mace. However, I wanna point out that Insider 62 said Form VII itself applied "very advanced Force-assisted jumps and movements", so it is possible that Sidious blur effect was from Form VII, not Form IV. Darth Kevinmhk 16:25, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, Danik Kreldin said that Palpatine used a mix of forms, anyway. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 20:01, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Nope, the novel didnt mention that, I'm sure. It looked like what Nick Gillard described in an interview... I will quote a source later to continue the discussion. Darth Kevinmhk 04:15, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Thank you. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 13:13, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Darth Kevinmhk 10:54, 27 March 2006 (UTC) Got it. From theforce.net -> EP3 -> Just the Facts -> Palpatine section. But I doubt he was actually refering to the seven forms, because the crew does not consider c-canon when designing stage fighting. Anyway, Nick Gillard said these:
 * Pertaining to whether Sidious is right-handed or left-handed with a lightsaber, he's ambidextrous. He's just that good.
 * Sidious' abilities are beyond anything we've experienced.
 * It took a really long time for Nick (Gillard) to work out Sidious' fighting style, and he has a style that's constantly changing. His style is one in which you'll never get the better of him. It is ambiguous --- he'll fight less than you and draw you in; you're a sucker if you think you're going to better him.
 * Sidious is a master of every weapon and every style.
 * Still, "every style" could still mean all of the seven forms. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 20:36, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
 * So we should put Palpatine's name in all 7 articles? Darth Kevinmhk 02:31, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
 * When being asked whether Mace used Vaapad in EP3, Rick said "No, he did what Nick taught him."; Nick's Level 1-10 system is completely different from the already existed seven forms.. so i consider the crew doesnt care the setting of 7forms. Darth Kevinmhk 14:30, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Responding to your question: It's worth a small mention, I suppose. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 21:20, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

I don't know for sure if the Lighsaber Guide of the Dark Jedi Brotherhood is a canonical source or not. In that the writer(s)' theory is that Palpatine's style could be the long-forgotten style known as Lus-ma. He does not state it firmly, it is written that they are 'searching for evidence and more details.' One thing is stated though: that Palpatine's style was extremely demanding. Even this particular article says that he combined stabs and thrust into his attacks, so it was not a 'clear' Ataru. Of course we don't even know for sure what the 'clear' Ataru was like, although the pdf document gives a detailed list of manouvres and movements for each style, and in Ataru's list there's clearly no stabbing. If the source is not canon, then cancel this last sentence (it's likely because the movements are definitely listed for the players of the role-playing community which has created the guide). Anyway, I like the idea of Palpatine using a style that was forgotten - or erased from lightsaber training - by the Jedi, because it would definitely give him advantage should he get into a situation where he has to defend himself with lightsaber. I rather disagree with Palpatine using Form VII, because in my opinion it was unlikely that he could devote himself to the intensive training required by this form, nor the mentioned state of mind (see article about Form VII), because he was known as a cool-headed and counting person, looking to exploit others' weaknesses, not giving himself entirely over to the heat of combat. A surprising and unusual style I think would better suit him. (This is only personal opinion).--81.182.182.148 22:18, 5 June 2006 (UTC)