Talk:MC80 Liberty type Star Cruiser

You people are kidding me. The pic up there is the best that can be found for the MC80? Definitely better ones out there. Let's try for a screenshot.--Erl 23:46, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
 * That's not a bad picture. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 23:48, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
 * No, it's an accurate representation, but I think the page would be more interesting with a full color, 3-D image at an oblique angle.-- The Erl of the  talk  What I do 16:13, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
 * If an image is accurate, that's all we need. Color and 3-D doesn't matter that much. Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 17:26, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Don't we? Shouldn't an image grab the attention and interest the mind?-- The Erl of the  talk  What I do 00:17, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
 * If it's fan-made, no. Accuracy is far more important. Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 00:50, 3 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree We should change it :User:Gavin Galicnar
 * If a good canonical image presents itself, maybe. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 21:29, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Yep, change it - mayby for shot from Episode VI ? Or Empire at War screenshot would look nice too. And that scan should be moved down as image from other source. SkywalkerPL 12:35, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, we should still keep this current one in the article. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 13:29, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

60 MGLT?!
I cannot believe the MC80 has an acceleration of 60 MGLT while the Rebel Blockade runner is listed as 22 and the X-Wing at 80.

It cannot be that this thing can accelerate almost as fast as a Y-Wing, how about 6 MGLT?
 * If a canon source says it's 60 MGLT, it's 60 MGLT. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 21:03, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Canon sources also state that the Rebel Blockade runner is one of the fastest ships, and common sense would say a cruiser is never as fast as a fighter, as also seen in the battle of Endor.
 * The Battle of Endor doesn't show the CR90s trying to go at their fastest speed. If canon says the blockade runner is as fast as a fighter, then it is. Plus, as a blockade runner, it would be fast. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 19:06, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

"Downscaled"?
--McEwok 02:22, 10 January 2007 (UTC) "Darth Vader adds to the blunder by being so fixed on capturing Luke Skywalker alive that he orders his flotilla of Star Destroyers to pursue the Falcon rather than hunt down the escaped Rebel transports."
 * An explanation of why I believe VT-16's reverts to describe the MC80 as a "downscaled" crusier are inaccurate.
 * VT-16's argument is based on a reference to MC80s in "Rebel flotillas" on page 170 of Star Wars: Complete Locations, although he does not provide the actual quote. He claims that "Flotillas do not incorporate cruisers".
 * However, it appears that real-life groups of ships designated as flotillas can include cruisers. A quick web search finds me the following:
 * 1) The light cruisers HMS Champion, HMS Fearless and HMS Castor as the leaders of destroyer flotillas in the British Grand Fleet during World War I.
 * 2) The Royal Navy's "5th Light Cruiser Flotilla", based at Harwich, also during World War I, including the light cruisers HMS Centaur and HMS Concord.
 * 3) The Austro Hungarian k.u.k.Kreuzerflottille, again in World War I, consisting of the light cruisers SMS Helgoland, SMS Novara and SMS Saida.
 * 4) A US Navy squadron designated Cruiser Flotilla 4, around 1950..
 * Moreover, a single reference to "Rebel flotillas" including MC80s cannot be regarded as technically precise. I doubt that VT-16 would regard the reference to Iron Fist as a destroyer in The Courtship of Princess Leia as indicating her technical designation. I understand that VT-16 isn't a first-language English speaker, so perhaps things are different in his native language, though.
 * If any doubt remains, the "standard Imperial classifications" as established in Star Wars canon define the cruiser designation as including all proper gun-armed warships above ~400m. While some other classification systems may exist in which MC80s are not large enough to count as cruisers, these must be upscaled compared with the standard.
 * I've reverted your edit for the time being, McEwok. Let's wait to see what VT has to say before changing it. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 12:26, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
 * You are using singular uses such as the A-H navy during WWI ("rapid cruisers" which were lightly armored scout cruisers), and destroyer leaders when the issue isn't about them, but about the flotilla itself. The Executor leads a flotilla at Hoth, the Home One leads a Rebel flotilla at Endor.

- p.142

"At Endor, pounded mercilessly by the capital ships of the Rebel Alliance flotilla, the ship's shields fail."

- p.170

And, yes, the "standard Imperial classifications" which are not specified and does not cover the use of frigates over 400 meters in length, nor the terming of Star Destroyers as battleships. I'm sorry, but that's not good enough, there are more classification systems involved, as explicitly said by the Dorling Kindersley series of fact books. (Which I need to add to a certain article in need of extensive rewriting.) Oh yeah, Jack, it appears that "the" is used in front of shipnames, I guess the use is arbitrary. VT-16 10:29, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Where does that thing on "the" being used in front of ship names come from, VT? Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 12:12, 11 January 2007 (UTC)


 * VT: You are using singular uses such as the A-H navy during WWI ("rapid cruisers" which were lightly armored scout cruisers), and destroyer leaders when the issue isn't about them, but about the flotilla itself.
 * Why is that relevant? The point is that even if SW:CL was using the term "flotilla" in a precise technical way (which I don't think you can prove), cruisers can operate as part of flotillas, and therefore there is no evidence to call an MC80 "downscaled".
 * The Executor leads a flotilla at Hoth, the Home One leads a Rebel flotilla at Endor.
 * So you're saying that the "star dreadnaught" Executor can be part of a "flotilla of Star Destroyers"? I think you just demolished your own argument.
 * And, yes, the "standard Imperial classifications" which are not specified and does not cover the use of frigates over 400 meters in length, nor the terming of Star Destroyers as battleships.
 * The standard classification of cruisers is discussed extensively in The Heir to the Empire Sourcebook, and we already knew from The Rebel Alliance Sourcebook that the category includes ships up to the size of "the Super-class Star Destroyer". There are certainly alternative systems in use, and imprecise or inaccurate terminology being used&mdash;for instance,references to Corellian Corvettes as "battleships" and comparably-sized Ugor ships as "dreadnaughts".
 * However, references to large "frigates" don't affect the fact that the MC80 is a cruiser according to the standard designations. On the use of this term, bear in mind that the 1950-1975 US Navy usage of "frigate" denoted modern cruiser-sized ships later recategorized as cruisers, and we also have references to MC80s as a "Headquarters Frigate" and a "winged Medical Frigate". Someone ought to add "frigate" to the roles cited on the page, actually.
 * I'm sorry, but that's not good enough, there are more classification systems involved, as explicitly said by the Dorling Kindersley series of fact books. (Which I need to add to a certain article in need of extensive rewriting.)
 * No, that's not good enough. The existence of alternative classification systems was established back in The Rebel Alliance Sourcebook, in the first description of the standard system; the point is that these other systems are not the Galactic standard system. If any of them exclude a 1200m ship from the "cruiser" category (something that there's no solid canon proof of), they are, therefore, "upscaled" from standard.
 * But to reiterate the main point: one non-technical reference to "Rebel flotillas" attacking the Executor does not make the MC80 a "downscaled" cruiser, especially when she fits into the "cruiser" category according to the canonically defined "standard" system. --McEwok 16:51, 11 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Here we go again... Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 22:15, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Okay, are there any *explicit* references to these ships as anything other than cruisers, or referring to them being upscaled or downscaled? If not, I don't see why there's even an argument.  Call 'em what existing canon calls 'em. jSarek 06:42, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, the Dorling Kindersley series of books are consistent in their description of two scales, one that encompasses both WEG's old system and adds "battleship" as an alternate designation for Star Destroyers, and another with Star frigates and Star Destroyers fulfilling the roles of frigates and destroyers, as well as dividing Super Star Destroyers into further types, consistent with naval use (ITW:OT, SW:CL). ROTS:ICS refers to cruisers like the Dreadnaught-class as "downscaled", which is logical, as they're comparable to most larger frigates in the SW universe. Further, the Rebel Fleet over Endor (which at the time had MC80 cruisers and battleships as their biggest vessels) is referred to as a flotilla. Likewise with the ISDs that accompany Executor over Hoth (ITW:OT, SW:CL). Flotillas consist of smaller warships, the largest being either frigates or destroyers. Of course, the Mon Calamari standards would vary from the galactic norm, so from their POV, their cruisers and battleships are just that. Like most things in SW, the warship category references in-universe rl names and words, and I find it strange that out of all areas of SW lore, this is the only one that gets scrutinized and debated to an incredible degrees. I'd like to see something like the "fashion" category go through this level of second-guessing. VT-16 15:55, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I think the MC80 was called a frigate once or twice in the RotJ novelization. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 12:26, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
 * The ship we now know as Home One (identified as an MC80 in The Rebel Alliance: Ships of the Fleet, but that's a whole other level of rewriting) is frequently called the Headquarters Frigate (or sometimes, especially in the earlier sources, "the Headquarters Frigate" as if it's a name; "Home One" or "Home-one" generally seems to be a callsign rather than a name in the early material). The Essential Guide to Vehicles and Vessels also refers to "the winged Medical Frigate". What frigate means in this context isn't exactly clear, but Star Cruiser remains the standard designation, and there are plenty of sources describing the Mon Cal ships as the main Rebel cruisers (often specifically in terms of the specific "standard" definition of cruisers as large capital ships). --McEwok 14:36, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I wasn't actually talking about Home One. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 20:44, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Nebulax: Home One is the only Mon Cal ship referred to as a "frigate" in the RotJ novellization (once as "the Headquarters Frigate", once as a "frigate"; "Star Cruiser" is used rather more often), unless you count the ambiguous reference to "the Medical Frigate", which is generally taken to be the Nebulon-B from ESB, though the EGtVV does show that there is a MC80 Medical Frigate, too.
 * VT-16: I don't think you've made your case here...
 * Even if your interpretation of the terminology used in ICS/ItW is correct (it seems to be your own non-canon analysis of the specific terms used&mdash;why do you identify "battleship" as "as an alternate designation for Star Destroyers", for instance, rather than a vague generic term?), then the use of another system doesn't affect the fact that the standard designation system still defines the "cruiser" category as containing all gun-armed warships above 400m.
 * Even if the passage in RotS:ICS means that the 600m Rendili design is a "downscaled" dreadnaught (which I'm not convinced of), this doesn't affect the standard cruiser designation. The Dreadnaught Cruiser is a heavy cruiser by the standard system, not a dreadnaught.
 * Even if the Mon Calamari standards vary from the Galactic norm (pure speculation), there's no evidence that the "Star Cruiser" designation for the MC80 is a distinctly Mon Calamari one.
 * Even the technical meaning of the term "flotilla" automatically defines a group of ships excluding cruisers (which it doesn't), the non-technical usage in ItW doesn't affect the technical definition of "cruiser" in Star Wars.
 * Your speculation and extrapolation can't override standard canon. MC80s fall into the "cruiser" category under the standard system; they're also called "Star Cruisers", which reinforces their "cruiser" deisgnation, and suggests that they'd be cruisers under the "Star" designations used in ICS too. The only non-crusier designations I know of are references to a Headquarters Frigate and Medical Frigate, but we can't assume that these imply an "upscaled" system where each designation applies to larger vessels: "frigate" has been used in very different ways in the real world, and "Medical Frigate" is used in canon for ships from 32m to more than 2km. --McEwok 20:36, 13 January 2007 (UTC)


 * McEwok: I'm pretty sure there's something along the lines of "A Mon Calamari frigate moved in to engage a Star Destroyer..." Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 20:51, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
 * What difference does it make if I quote and reference the same books year after year, when I know full-well you will never bother to read them? Unless more people request information, I think I've justified the reasons enough. It's not my fault other people can't bother to search through the same sources themselves. I write from official sources on these articles just like all other articles that don't get constant second-guessing. VT-16 00:23, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Nebulax: being "pretty sure" isn't really enough, though; can you be more precise, or might you have misremembered?
 * VT: I think I've justified the reasons enough. Uhh... where, exactly? You've presented no evidence to explain why the 1200m MC80 should be a "downscaled" cruiser when she falls clearly into the 400m-8km cruiser category according to "standard" designations; no evidence to explain why she shouldn't still be a Star Cruiser under the non-standard system that calls a 825m ship a Star Frigate and 900m and 1137m ships Star Destroyers; and no evidence to show exactly what's meant by the handful of "frigate" references.
 * You support a fan-theory that ship classifications should be different from what canon gives us, which you back up with an interpretation of ICS/ItW evidence. But as I said in my last reply, even if every one of your basic arguments is right, and even if the SWTC system unambiguously exists as an alternative in canon (both of which are IMHO debatable at best), that still wouldn't change the fact that the MC80 is a cruiser according to the canonical "standard" designations. --McEwok 02:37, 14 January 2007 (UTC)


 * What, McEwok, can't I say "pretty sure" if I think I am? Haven't you been "pretty sure" about things as well, or is your memory so perfect that there is only a "yes" or "no" answer? Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 02:48, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
 * You support a fan-theory that ship classifications should be different from what canon gives us
 * You keep ignoring sources that do not support your fan opinion, this is a common technique for people who have no standing in a debate. I have time and time again posted sources and quotes for what I write in articles. Your continued ignoring of these have no consequence unless the articles are messed with, so I see no further need to argue. I can only once again point out that you are a liability to this site, which is meant to be an encyclopedia for canonical subjects in SW, not McEwok's opinions, which are apparently frozen in a 1989 perspective. VT-16 11:13, 14 January 2007 (UTC)