Talk:Vergere

Credits

 * 04:09, 24 Apr 2005 128.205.163.96
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 * 15:06, 24 Mar 2005 Aidje m (spelling)
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 * 03:54, 23 Jan 2004 63.191.224.12 (Corrections)
 * 03:52, 23 Jan 2004 63.191.224.12 (The beginning of it all)

Captions?
why aren't their captions on any pictures? Danny Havelick 22:53, 12 October 2006 (UTC)]]

Master?
Should we count Vergere as a Master? -- SFH 17:09, 29 Oct 2005 (UTC)

No, because she was only a newly appointed Jedi Knight when she left for her mission, and should well have been corrupted before the events of the NJO where she corrupts Jacen, which makes her a fallen Jedi and more precisely, a dark Jedi. While there are new hints that she is a failed Sith apprentice, that would still make her a dark Jedi, and not any Sith rank, unless she and Lumiya are working together to bring a new Sith order. Additionally, Jedi Masters of Vergere's time frame (Rise of the Empire Era: 32-19 years BBY) could achieve the status of Jedi Master ONLY if the Jedi High Council approved it, which they did not. Either way, her status as a Jedi itself is gone, let alone the potential of her being a master.


 * You forget that when she died, she not only became one with the force, but she also returned as a force ghost, something that Redemption states only a master can do.  Interestingly, only jedi have been known to do this... 72.179.152.13 04:43, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Creator?
I'd like to know who created Vergere 'cause i'm doin' a list of who created who? so I really like to know (and I think it's either Greg Bear or James Luceno.) And I'm sota confused partly because of the Quinlan Vos thing (in which even thou that he was written for the then upcoming Twlight story arc i think his first offical appearence was issue 5 of the Emissaries of Malastare which came before Twlight itself. And I was thinkin' Was this like this with Vergere?Thanks.
 * Creator of Vergere was Jim Luceno. She was created for the NJO series, and inserted in Rogue Planet and Cloak of Deception to give her a background. QuentinGeorge 23:30, 12 Nov 2005 (UTC)

Cleanup?
Some of this article is confusing. I don't really know her story, so I think this should be dealt with by someone with a little more knowlege of the subject. I think the 5th and 6th paragraphs in her biography are what I'm getting hung up on the most. The 5th paragraph has a run on sentence that is missing enough words for the meaning to be lost. Another confusing point would be the death of Tsavong Lah: I noticed an inconsistency between his own biography and what this page says; again, I don't know the story, so I'm not sure which one is correct.

Also, I'm new to this editing process, so if I should(and could) have recommended this for clean up, I apologise for not doing so. If anyone can tell me how I might do that, or direct me to a source that would, please do. Thank you.


 * Tagged for cleanup. - QuentinGeorge 09:47, 29 Nov 2005 (UTC)

clean up
Cleaned up some grammar and stuff. My first attempt at editing, so I hope I haven't trodden on anyone's toes.

Infobox
So what do we classify Vergere as now? Sith? Jedi? Dark Jedi? I'm losing track again. -- SFH 05:01, 20 May 2006 (UTC) What I think Vergere is, is what is called a true Linewalker Jedi. She is nether light nor dark she is a force user. Remeber the force does not choose sides. What makes someone dark or light, is if the user is dark or light. I guess what I am saying is that the Force is not dark or light, it is people. Yeah, we have to remember that the whole Vergere is a Sith thing is so popular because it is easier for people to think that Vergere had some hidden Sith agenda than acknowledge the complexities of her teaching.They prefer to see her lies as manipulation rather than revelation of truth.
 * It seems like she would be a Jedi and a Sith. Kuralyov 05:10, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
 * And another question: Would she have been Dark Lord of the Sith with Darth Sidious, or did their Master/Apprentice relationship ever get that far? -- SFH 20:32, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Seeing as this flies right in the face of the entire Rule of Two thing, I think it's best to assume not unless/until told otherwise. Kuralyov 20:42, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
 * First, who was the other Sith Lord? Does she come before or after Maul? Second, Palpatine holds no laws before his own amibition. He's broken the rule of two before, he might do it again. -- SFH 22:29, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
 * She was more likely a Dark Acolyte. Nothingmore. Like Joruus C'BaothDarthMalus 06:49, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Joruus was an insane clone. Vergere was initially accepted as a Sith Apprentice - there's a difference. QuentinGeorge 06:52, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I just also came to a scary conclusion: Is death by Palpatine so bad that she would spend five decades with the Yuuzhan Vong? I know Palpatine made murder a form of art, but before you answer, remember, these are the Yuuzhies we're talking about here. -- SFH 20:00, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
 * If she was an apprentice, she would have to be after Maul but before Dooku. Looks like Palpy had more than one Jedi on the line. Stinkywookie 15:14, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
 * would that really shock anyone, this is Palpatine hes a Sith Lord, betrayel is the way the sith work, Vergere was intially a sith apprentice she tried to kill him, she failed she ran. Yes she ran to the Vong who in her view was the noly way she could keep the true sith way alive, and eventually pass it on. Jedi Dude
 * Doesn't shock me. I don't see the Rule of Two as a solid rule but more of a natural balance that Bane tried to make the norm.  Basically, if there is more than one, they gang up on the other until the other is dead.  Then there are two again.  I just like how it is looking like Vegere maybe turning the Sith into more of a Dark Grey Jedi as oppossed to pure evil.  Stinkywookie 19:31, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
 * My two Cents: While Vergere may have apprenticed under Palpatine (MAY), you cannot discount her reaction, seemingly VERY genuine and heartfelt, to the 'news' that Anakin became Darth Vader. "Oh no, could it not have been otherwise? What a WASTE." She gets very still. Very quiet, and I feel her shock is genuine. It's the only real time we see her reacting emotionally. I think what she says when asked if she is a Jedi or a Sith is very true. She is Vergere. Her reactions cannot be interpreted through the lens of Sith or Jedi because she is neither (although paradoxically I also want to think of her as an essentially good being). I think Jacen's fall is very much based around his perversion of what Vergere taught him, rather than springing from them. One only has too look at Jacen's behavior in Chiss Imperium space in the Force Heretic series to see that, then, when he was most under the influence of Vergere's teachings, he was also a very moral person. This is why the change in the Dark Nest trilogy feels both pronounced and forced. In short: Jacen's fall must be based on his own weakness rather than on a failure of Vergere's teaching (which actually hurts more as I identify myself very strongly with Jacen). Then again, "is it what the teacher teaches or the student learns?". 74.132.136.109 22:47, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Something of note. If Vergere is such a Sith, then why did she tell Jacen and others that her loyalty was to the Galactic Republic, not this new "Alliance," etc.?  It would seem a Sith, for instance Count Dooku, would be especially against the Republic that it either saw as corrupt, if they were more "genuinely idealistic" Sith, or in the way of their quest for power and destruction of the Jedi, if they were more of the mold of Palpatine.  Vergere doesn't seem to BE Sith.  Perhaps she should be called the first Vong Knight.
 * Vergere is a sith, the whole point of her being sith is like Darth Vec is so that we understand now not all sith were greedy dibolocal evil people, this is Lumiyas point, this is what gets Jacen to be a sith. Sith are not all evil, thats the whole point of Lumiya and now Vergere. She says that Jacen could be the first sith to use his powers for good. Vong Knight? no way. shes a sith whether candidate for the mantle of the rule of two or a apprentice, it goes to how you look into it. but the fact remains shes established as a sith in Lecacy.. Jedi Dude 12:40, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Look at the way Lumiya and Vergere seduce Jacen. It is very similar to how Palpatine's seduction of Anakin. Fact is they both want Jacen as a Sith. All Sith start out with the intent of doing good, but they are corrupted. Vergere and Lumiya both are corrupted, and are mixing truth with lies. The true reason Darth Vectivus wasn't heard of was that he lived when the Sith were thought extinct. Vergere and Lumiya must have been working together.l The Potentium leads to the darkside. Vergere was a FAILED apprentice. She was more of a Sith Acolyte or Disciple as Dooku's apprenticeship was soon after Maul's death. She was not Darth anything as far as we know. DarthMalus 04:25, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Vergere wasn't exactly...corrupted, and she wasn't a failed apprentice, IIRC she left Sidious. Anyways, Lumiya's "seduction" of Jacen wasn't quite like Palpatines, it was more like Vergere's. Both are curious force users who aren't satisfied with the abilities of the Jedi and feel they aren't seeing everything. Anyways, this is off topic and not really pertinent to a talk page. --Sauron18 19:23, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
 * yer we need to get back ot the topic, what infobox are we going to use. i would go with sith. for reasons abov enad more. but like Sauron said this talk page isn't a discussion board. Jedi Dude 19:31, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Out of respect for me (who feels like continuing the argument) is there a really good place for this to continue? Kegren&#39;Te 02:33, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Uh. I've had a recent thought, IF Vergere is as Sith, I think it's possible she could be a kind of believer of Darth Traya, as Kreia said there will always be one. Now, stick with me, if she was a Sith, she Betrayed the Jedi and Jacen by not revealing it, and Jacen saving Jaina was a betrayal in itself, remember, Traya is the betrayer who will be betrayed in turn.  Merely a thought, think it over.75.22.150.255 07:38, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
 * PS, last edit was mine, sorry.RushinSundaws 07:39, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Eye Color
Correct me if I'm wrong, but in every canonical source, and especially in the novels, aren't here eyes black? As in fully black? Sort of like this ?--Sauron18 05:39, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

What I think Vergere is, is what is called a true Linewalker Jedi. She is nether light nor dark she is a force user. Remeber the force does not choose sides. What makes someone dark or light, is if the user is dark or light. I guess what I am saying is that the Force is not dark or light, it is people.


 * How exactly does this relate to her eye color? :P Seriousley though, weren't her eyes described as completely black in the novels? --Sauron18 18:40, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Sorry about that last post I am new to this stuff. Oh and yes in the novels they say her eyes are all black.

Backwards knees?
When Vergere was introduced in the NJO series, she was referred to as having backwards knees. However, our birds (along with modern cats and most two-legged dinosaurs) have what appears to be a backwards knee but is really the ankle. Modern birds walk on their toes. This is also true of cats and two-legged dinosaurs.

Could the authors have been mixed up?Will 07:07, 18 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I think they have. --Tinwe 11:11, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I always pictured her legs like a Geonosians, or like the Faun in the movie "Pan's Labyrinth." Not so much as reverse-jointed, but as having a third leg segment.  Femur, then Fibula-Tibia, then a large pre-tarsus.  The joint between the middle and lower segment would be reversed relative to a normal knee joint.  But that's just a thought.  --Darth Ammanius 00:09, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree with the two-legged dinosaur theory. I have always seen Vergere as being somewhat like a small dinosaur, and her 'backwards knees' are probably her ankles.SithGirl132 18:10, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Makes sense, seeing as birds are the descendants of dinosaurs81.86.76.6 21:45, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Vergere most likely has one set of joints in her legs that articulate as a human's might, because in Traitor she is described as sitting on a ledge and kicking her legs out before her like a little girl. Either Matthew Stover made an error, or Vergere sports the ability to bend her legs in two directions. DarthTofu 14:14, 17 June 2007(UTC)

If the authors stated is as backwards knees, wouldn't that make it canon? Micah Giett 00:29, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

NPOV
I feel some of the info in the BTS is a bit biased. Not too badly, but nonetheless. If someone could subdue it a little, it would be great. (If I went to edit it myself the result might be just as biased, just the other way round, because I actually like Vergere. ;) --Tinwe 11:11, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Actually it is only stating the facts. If you are bias is only facts, then is it really bias? Vergere was not a true Sith but she was following the dark path. That is what is said in the article. Itis simply the truth.

I disagree. Lumiya may have tried to convince Jacen of that, but that does not make it the truth. Will (talk -- contribs) 19:21, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

No these statements didnt come from Lumiya. These came from Vergere other objective sources and can be read in the NJO novels. She was a darksider.


 * Define "Vergere other objective sources". Also, you and the second poster did not sign. Will (talk -- contribs) 04:59, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree. Remove that and the NPOV warning.
 * I don't see how it's NPOV, since it's stating facts and it provides evidence for it. The only thing that I might see the need to remove is the last sentence of the second to last paragraph: "While the previous clues hinted the dark nature of Vergere, this particular clue could be seen as the most important piece." Kuralyov 05:30, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

I really dont think there is any proof of vergere being a sith it is true that she does some things that are dark to jacen but i beleive that is from her time with the yuuzan vong corrupted her. the only proof of her being sith is lumiya. Also she tells jacen and luke that she is not a sith or a jedi i dont think she would lie to jacen and not tell him the truth 69.26.85.244 03:05, 4 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Oh you dont. If she is a Sith, yes she would. Right now all EU and OOU material supports the theory of her being a darksider.

Should Lumiya really be believed when it comes to Vergere? I was one of those who liked Traitor and didn't believe Lumyia in Traitor. She doesn't really corrupt Jacen during the NJO as that only happens after in DN and LOTF novels.


 * Take note that what she teaches Jacen is strikingly similar to the Sith teachings.

I looked at Vergere in depth in this essay and it presents an alternate view of her as she changes and the perception of her changes as well.

[] --Katana Geldar 00:01, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
 * She is, in fact a darksider, no way to get around it.
 * HAHAHAHAHAHA...That was the worst defense for Vergere I have ever read! Vergere in Traitor seemed more like a Sith than a Jedi. She presents a philosophy that is very close to that of Palpatine. She is a darksider. Sorry to the people that want to advocate relativeism and subjectivism. Those two philosophies are plain and simple wishful thinking for ignorant, unintelligent minds. Absolutes exist. Right and Wrong exist. According to Lucas the force has a dark and lightside.


 * Only a Sith deals in absoulutes :P 65.0.105.215 04:43, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree. I also agree.If she is so evil,prove it.Prove that she did harm with something other than Lumiya(confirmed liar in Betrayal)'s statements and the beliefs of the Jedi who never liked Vergere to begin with and were all too easily convinced she had a sinister agenda.Through her teachings Jacen brought peace to a species without a word for it.Vergere destroyed Alpha Red.If she had been a big "ends ALWAYS justify the means" like Jacen has become,she wouldnt have done that.She even questioned Jacen on such a philosophy."Does intention always trump action?".


 * I suggest reading the thoughts of Matt Stover himself on some of this stuff. http://www.inblogs.net/mattstover Check out his January 4th and January 6th entries. He makes an interesting case on George's thoughts and classifications.


 * After reading that, I say that with all the arguements that have been stated, all the evidence each side used to back up there arguements, that Vergere is in fact a darksider. The Potentium is not the true nature of the Force. Darth Byss 02:48, 19 February 2007 (UTC)


 * "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view"TIE Defender 02:41, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Vergere's viewpoint switches from Sith-like to Jedi-like depending on who she's with. I tend to support the view of her as a darksider, as that is what canon tends to like as well. TIE Defender is right- some things are true only from a certain point of view.SithGirl132 18:13, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Kreia Reincarnation?

 * Does anybody notice the paralells between Vergere and Kreia? Teachers, neutral powerful force users, Sith and Jedi, teaching their students unusual powers?  Could this be noted in BTS?  Wait a minute, its already there.  Could it be expanded upon, though?--Vladius Magnum
 * Can you name one single place in any film or EU source that mentions or even remotely indicates reincarnation of any character in the SW universe? No. - JMAS 18:40, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Before you snap at me again, note that I never said that she was a Kreia Reincarnation. That was just a simple summary in the heading on the general lines of what I was saying.  I just said that they were very similar, and that deserved more recognition.  Look before you leap.  I'm not stupid, and I wouldn't suggest that theory, but I do suggest that you read more.
 * Agreeing with Vlad, he doesn't suggest actual spiritual reincarnation, but more the reincarnation of ideas. Kreia herself said there must always be a Darth Traya.  Maybe this reflects a side line Sith tradition in a similar vien to the Jedi/Grey Jedi relationship? {{User: CunningSmile}
 * I agree with Vlad as well, but I don't know if it really belongs on the page, since it is, after all, pure conjecture on our parts.Paul the Reformed 01:58, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Kreia herself says at the end of KOTOR 2 that there must always be a Darth Traya - and Vergere seems to fit this role quite nicely in the NJO.ljofa

Correction on Potentium Heresy

 * In the book where Zonama Sekot is first introduced (I believe it's Rogue Planet, but am not 100% certain), the heresy of the Potentium is introduced by Obi-wan. One thing he notes is that although it was branded as heresy, none of its adherents fell to the Dark Side.  If someone else has seen this mentioned in that book, it should be updated in this page and the other Potentium-referencing pages (including the Force page and the Potentium page. --BozoCat (Haven't made an account yet, but may.)


 * While this may not belong in the article, I suggest reading the thoughts of Matt Stover himself on some of this stuff. http://www.inblogs.net/mattstover  Check out his January 4th and January 6th entries.  He brings up some very interesting points of view which kinda kick the whole "Jedi/Sith" thing in the teeth.  Not to mention some of that crap quoted by the "George Lucas is god" people.
 * That wasn't very deep or thought provoking. Old tired arguements. They still aren't that good, even the 400th time around. Darth Byss 02:52, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Parellels?
Does anyone else notice a parallel in Traitor between Vergere and Virgil, from Dante's Inferno? Throughout the novel there are subtle hints, such as Jacen referring to the Nine Correllian Hells (Nine levels of hell) and calling Vergere his guide through the lands of the dead, as Dante called Virgil his guide. Also, Traitor is divided into three parts with an introduction, similar to Dante's inferno, though the epilogue does, unfortunately remove the same style Dante's Inferno featured.

Genius Sir or Ma'am. Really well done. I never would have thought of that but a little analysis proves you right. --KnnOs 15:13, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Well I know that Vergere is... unusual but i doubt a Kreia reincarnation...

Maybe they have similar teaching... or she learned from that "revan went into the darkness to find the true sith" stuff...

Claims not to be dark
On page 75 of Destiny's Way she mentions how disturbed and angry she was when she realized the Vong were outside of the force. At the end of the last complete paragraph on that page she says: "Nevere had I been so close to surrendering to darkness." On the next page she continues her story and does not submit to her anger. Then if this was the time she was closest to darkness, but held back, she never went dark. Course, she may not see her Potentium views, or Sith views, or whatever, as dark. Micah Giett 18:23, 27 June 2007 (UTC) Because of course Vergere orchestrated wars and genocides.Oh wait, she didnt.In fact she was deeply opposed to genocide of the Yuuzhan Vong despite the fact it might work and she was all for bringing an end to the war. And remember in this passage Vergere is talking about emotional darkness. She could have still pursued being a Sith aprentice based on the merits of power, and other well meaning reasons without having lost any form of control. When Jacen Solo dabbled in, and eventually embraced the Sith way in Betrayal, he was far from surrendering to his emotions in anyway throughout. --DawnStrike 16:41, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
 * The way I look at it, is not everyone admits to themself that they are dark-aligned. I'm sure Hitler thought he was a great guy, but lets face it, if you gave him a lightsaber and Force abilities, dude would be a Sith.Paul the Reformed 02:02, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Main Image
I was wondering if there was a specific reason why the main image was changed from the full-body Vergere from the NEGTC to the portrait Vergere from NEC? Maybe it's me, but not only does the full-body image show more of her, it is also better drawn. The NEC portrait simply looks ugly (not the art, the actual being), and while Vergere is no concubine that doesn't mean she has to look ugly.

So, I'm going to change it to the full body, but if anyone has any problem with this or a reason for why it should not be so, please discuss it here. Thanks. --Sauron18 19:57, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Arguements

 * Do we really need those sections any longer? She has been confirmed to be Sith, so the section is really useless. Darth Byss 03:24, 30 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I think the issue is still up in the air for a lot of people. Vergere is one of the most truly un-categorizable characters in the Star Wars universe. (yes, I made that word up). Vergere is Vergere. To remove this section would be a disservice, particularly given that the sources claiming Vergere for a Sith are biased at best. (The New Sith, Lumiya etc.) I guess my point is that, like gun laws etc., reasonable people may disagree. For those reasons, the section should be left in. KnnOs 07:11, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Why do we assume the sources regarding her as Sith are biased, and what possible motive would the New Sith Order have on telling Alema that Vergere was Sith, if it were not a matter of fact. Her teachings, methods, and tactics are all too similar to Darth Sidious. Furthermore why not turn it around and say that all the accounts of her being a Jedi are biased as well? That it was Qui Gon's, Jorus's, Adi's, and every other Jedi who considered her or ackowledged, or even believed she was a Jedi can not be trusted. Do you see what we are doing here? We are basically saying that we can't know anything for certain, which is not true. Even Luke alluded to the fact that Vergere's teachings were too similar to what Darth Vader believed. We have had it but spelled out to us in multiple sources, characters, both Jedi and Sith, and even the author's have been slapping us across the face with the fact that Vergere was a Sith. The issue can be up in the air for the people who wanted moral relativism and an exuse to be cruel and be a Jedi, all it wants, but the fact is that it is merely a display of cognitive dissonance, a reaction that is understandable from those who believed her to be a Jedi.Darth Byss 22:54, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
 * "Sith? Jedi? Are these the only choices? Dark or light, good or evil? Is there no more to the Force than this? What is the screen on which light and dark cast their shapes and shadows? Where is the ground on which morals stand?"

- Vergere

Vergere can never be truly categorized as pure Sith or pure Jedi (unless she appears as a Blue Ghost and tells us so) Did she belong to the Jedi Order? Yes. History and countless sources tell us that much. Was she a Sith? It looks like it. Lumiya confirmed that she had Sith training from Palpatine (it was Lumiya who said that, right? Betrayal was a long time ago...) Also, White Eyes said that she conspired with Lumiya to revive the Sith Order. That doesn't make her a Sith. It makes her manipulative. Maybe Vergere wanted the Sith back for some other reason.

In all likelihood, Vergere a was cunning, Force-sensitive, and very manipulative little being, but in the end, she was Vergere. No more, no less.

Her moral ambiguity makes her one of, if not the, most interesting characters in Star Wars. Why take that out of the article? Slap her with a Sith tag, call her evil, save a little bandwidth? The very fact that we’re having this discussion justifies the section. Din&#39;s Fire 997 17:48, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

^^ I'd like to make a point on your comment "Was she a Sith? It looks like it." I think the correct way of acknowledging Lumiya's word would be that it "is possible." There is nothing *definite* about Vergere's supposed Sith connections.


 * It's worth noting the Vergere's final words before her death in Destiny's Way were to declare herself a Jedi... Or have you 'Vergere-is-evil' people conveniently forgotten that? 72.179.152.13 03:32, 25 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I suggest taking a look at Jolee Bindo, a "Grey Jedi" who followed Vergere's ideas from Traitor (or perhaps started them himself given that he's KotOR period) and remained much more light than dark throughout his life. It really changes one's perspectives on her teachings as being "Sith," and supports the (IMHO, infinitely more likely) possiblity that she wasn't Sith.  Nor Jedi, if you want to go that far.  Honestly, what Jolee says in KotOR is very similar to what Vergere said in Traitor, especially when you look at the differences from Sith mentalities.  In terms of argument, this would create a strong case for her not being Sith, regardless what (*cough*lies*cough*) DelRey publishes (*cough*through their insufferable retconn'ing*cough*).


 * But she is Sith. She is cruel, manipulative, believed herself to be beyond light and dark, good and evil, Lumiya said she was and so did a Sith group who would have no motive to lie about Vergere's allegiance. Like it or not, it is a fact. She has been flat out stated to have been Sith. Seeing she was alot like Sidious in her methods and beliefs, I would think it wouldn't be to difficult to believe. Arguments have been made like: Lumiya lied to get Jacen to join her. That may, even if it is a poor arguement, could be made, but let us apply that same standard in another way. What if Vergere is Sith and simply told Jacen she was neither to disassociate herself and teachings from that image of the Sith Jacen already had, that image being Darth Vader and the Emperor. Jacen would be more open to her teachings if his guard were down. He does very un-Jedi like things even in the NJO and these things were encouraged by Vergere. She assured him, just like Sidious assured anakin that his feelings and actions were right and just, but nobody considered that possibility. There is an unspoken assumption behind the arguements. The evidence points to her Sith allegiance. She was once a Jedi, then she became Sith. Jacen believed Vergere was Sith, Lumiya said she was, and a group of Sith who wanted nothing to do with Lumiya or Darth Caedus said she was, and I would ask exactly what would they gain by perpetuating a lie like that? The fact that they said it casually implied that it was common knowledge amongst them. So again your arguement fails to address the issue. Vergere acted, behaved, and thought like a Sith, was identitified as being one of them by two seperate parties. He teachings were likened to Vader and Sidious's own beliefs by Luke. He was wary of her to begin with and had good reason. Again there are far stronger evidences to be found in multiple sources that would point to her Sith allegiance. DarthMalus 18:30, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Her teachings helped Jacen bring an end to the war with the Yuuzhan Vong and redeem them.She acted out against genocide even against "the enemy",which doesnt fit at all with what Jacen and Lumiya believe now.She seemed disgusted by the idea that the Jedi thought they could kill all they like if they were calm.She questioned Jacen's belief that intent always trumped action.She clearly thought good and evil existed,except not as big abstracts in the sky,but within all of us.Please stop acting as if the word of Luke is everything.It was Luke who corrupted the teachings of the Jedi for awhile to mean something they didn't before turning back. Jacen WANTED for her to be a Sith,since that would make him feel more justified.I have no doubt she trained to be a Sith and mingled with the Sith,but 50 years with the Vong taught her a few things far beyond Sith beliefs.


 * "Do we really need those sections any longer? She has been confirmed to be Sith, so the section is really useless."

I didn't take the time to transcribe those quotes because I thought they were "needed" to ascertain whether she was a Jedi or a Sith, Byss. I put them here because she makes what I feel are some good points, and I don't think her motives for saying some of these things matter.

She says that it is sick if a Jedi feels that he can kill and kill and kill and kill and that it is perfectly acceptable as long as the Jedi does not lose his temper.

She is right. That is sick.

So I'm putting the quotes back. She makes sense, and it's kind of a sore point with me that the one character who pointed out that the emperor (not Palpatine, the figurative emperor) had no clothes, that Jedi teachings were flawed in places, was subsequently painted as a liar and an evil Sith. The concept of their being no dark side was too radical for LFM to accept into canon, I guess. How closed-minded of them to say "Anybody who questions the wisdom of the Jedi teachings must be evil."--HanShotFirst 12:15, 19 November 2007 (UTC)


 * It's back up now, and I tried to make it as NPOV as I could, i.e. a summary of what Vergere said without guesses as to her motives or the truth of any of her statements. That also meant taking out Luke's observation, although such an observation would certainly not be out of place in the entry on Luke, the entry on Jacen, or even in another section of the entry on Vergere. Perhaps somebody who has read more of the books than I have (I've only read up to the end of Exile) could create a section below it, containing all of Luke's counter-points or those of other people.--HanShotFirst 12:33, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Vergere's Force Ghost
There's been an item added after the argument that Vergere appeared as a force ghost to Jacen Solo, that position being that it could have been an illusion generated by Vergere. This is impossible, as by the time (and during the time) that the ghost was visible, air was already whistling out into space. Now, it's feasible, at an extreme unlikelyhood, that this was an illusion projected by Lumiya, light years away on that asteroid (as it seems now after Fury that the geographical location was important to manifest that power). Personally, I think it's a weak counter-argument and I'd like to see it removed, but I admit I have less than full objectivity. So I open it up to those of us who argue this topic endlessly (and we do!). Do we remove the counter-argument, remove the original argument AND the counter, Or amend the counter to suggest it an illusion of Lumiya's? Its current form is logically fallacious and must be removed.

--71.205.123.38 20:54, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Lumiya apparently could project illusions from great distances and you said nothing that makes the arguement impossible, nor illogical. You are letting your personal bias cloud your mind. You only expressed your oppinion on it but gave no supporting arguement for why it should be removed. Besides, it is a moot point as it has now been confirmed beyond a shadow of a doubt that Vergere was, in fact, a Sith. DarthMalus 01:30, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes and we are all the worse for it. But this is not a discussion board so I will keep my topics on hand. You may not have read all that I wrote, sir, and I do not deserve the vituperative tone you have taken. What I said was that is was both impossible and illogical for VERGERE to be projecting the illusion, and only unlikely that it was Lumiya doing so. At that point, Vergere would have to be dead, from a combination of the massive explosion set off with the detonation of her fighter, and the explosive loss of atmospheric compression. I would appreciate a little more civility and attention to the arguments I DO make, though I doubt you will see my comments here any further. This absurd insistence on moral dichotomy has at last pushed me away from Star Wars. You guys can have it. KnnOs 03:02, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Your hardly the only one who get sick of this absurd moral dichotomy.It seems like the suggestion that any moral grey areas exist or that complex moral situations exist seems put down to relativism by certain Star Wars fans who don't understand relativism or the distinctions between relativism and what Vergere teaches.Frankly the whole Lumiya using Force illusions to make a Vergere ghost is as forced as the Lord Nyax thing to prove Vergere is evil.Stop looking at everything in-universe.We know from the interview contained back in Inferno that no uber-plot between the Dark Nest and Legacy of the Force exists,much less between LotF and NJO.Matthew Stover did not mean Vergere to be Sith.In fact the idea that Lumiya would be in LotF at all was late in the planning for the books.At the time of Destiny's Way-Vergere was meant to be a Force ghost,disregarding that is biased.More biased than disregarding a not even in-universe confirmed fan idea.

It is my belief that the term "Sith" is thrown around much too loosely nowadays. People here like to say that there is bonehard proof that Vergere was Sith. I'd like to ask, where is this proof? The only way Vergere's "Sithhood" can be proven beyond any doubt is if we: a) witnessed a scene similar DArth Vader's knighting in ROTS, where Vergere would pledge herself to Palpatine's teachings, or b) if Palps himself would mention her as his apprentice. So far, all we have as "proof" is in-universe guesswork and vague assumptions. Furthermore, studying under the heel of a Sith Lord doesn't necessary mean you are a Sith, does it? Because if it did, we'd have to count Asajj Ventress, Komari Vosa, General Grievous, every single Emperor's Hand, and countless others as Sith, and we don't do that do we? So, my final point is that Vergere being Sith is still nothing but conjecture, and should be treated as such.FilippiliF 13:03, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Apprentices
Do we want to list Darth Krayt as an apprentice? I haven’t been reading the Claws of the Dragon arc in Star Wars: Legacy, but the Krayt entry seems to suggest that she converted him from “angry dark-sider” to “full-blown Sith,” which would qualify him at least dubiously. David139 22:39, 30 January 2008 (UTC)