Talk:Sphyrna-class corvette

Removing link
The link to Hammerhead starship should be removed so the canon page can settle here. Nivlacanator (talk) 03:25, January 19, 2016 (UTC)


 * What about the link to the Thranta-class corvette? It is the same size (smaller variant of Hammerhead cruiser) and is also a corvette. It is just a suggestion. The design of the hammerhead corvette is very close to the Thranta. Darth Ravigious (talk) 04:00, January 19, 2016 (UTC)

Thranta Class Corvette
The cruisers look almost exactly like the Thranta-class corvettes. It's just a thought, but it might make for an appropriate redirect. Name aside (the Thranta part, that is), it looks almost exactly the same and roughly the same size, and they are both corvettes. Darth Ravigious (talk) 12:37, January 21, 2016 (UTC)

I'm generally not opposed to adding fun BTS info, but there are a number of 3D models in the Clone Wars and Rebels that are reused or based on The Old Republic or Star Wars Galaxies 3d models (the flamethrowers the clones used in the early seasons of clone wars comes to mind) and we don't have BTS info for them. Is is appropriate to list it here but not on those other pages? Vaclon (talk) http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/BT_X-42_flamethrower


 * What does this have to do with my initial question? (which is, may I add, now irrelevant as the issue has been settled as of today) Darth Ravigious (talk) 20:41, October 18, 2016 (UTC)

Legends
The Hammerhead corvette is based on the Hammerhead-class cruiser. There's even a citation in the article. Even if the appearances are slightly different, it is the canon equivalent of said Legends ship. DarkKnight2149 00:20, October 17, 2016 (UTC)
 * Yes, it's based on it, but not an equivalent of it. For example, Kylo Ren is not the canon equivalent of Darth Caedus, although they're similar and the former may be based on latter. 01miki10 Open comlink 13:16, October 17, 2016 (UTC)
 * Except Kylo Ren is not an adaptation of Jacen Solo. The two are entirely separate and distinct characters, the only real similarity being that they are a Solo child that fell to the dark side. This situation is more in line with Korriban and Moraband. The databank even references the Old Republic history of the ship, calling it "a time-honored design that stretches back centuries". DarkKnight2149 16:14, October 17, 2016 (UTC)
 * This is very different from a few similarities between characters. Kylo Ren is not an intentional canonical depiction of Darth Caedus. The Hammerhead corvette, on the other hand, is an intentional use of a Legends subject. The tabs at the top are for readers to navigate, so we should of course include the tabs on this page. - Brandon Rhea (talk) 16:15, October 17, 2016 (UTC)
 * Hypothetically, if we were to use a canon/legends tab for this article, I think it'd be more appropriate to link this article to the Thranta-class corvette, as they are far more similar in design, being smaller. The Hammerhead Cruiser from legends is a capital ship. Hammerhead Corvettes are frigates. If not, I say no tabs at all. I say this because they would not have used these specific models during the canon Old Republic Era. They were simply based on an old design. They are completely different vessels. For instance, aircraft carriers during the Second World War may look the same in design to modern ones, but they are by no means the same class of ship. One is an updated model with far more advanced technology. For instance, that is why there are no tabs between Pellaeon-class Star Destroyers and the canon Imperial-class Star Destroyer. They look almost exactly the same, but one is an updated model based upon the star destroyers of old.Darth Ravigious (talk) 16:46, October 17, 2016 (UTC)
 * Now that you mention it, the source clearly states that it's based on a Knights of the Old Republic ship without clarifying which one. As far as I'm aware, there are three variations of the design (Thranta-class corvette, Hammerhead-class cruiser, and Hammerhead starship). DarkKnight2149 17:33, October 17, 2016 (UTC)
 * I guess I'll go ahead and link Thranta-class corvette to this article as well, for the reasons mentioned above (unless there are objections). Hammerhead starship is different enough that it can be ignored, in my opinion.DarkKnight2149 18:44, October 17, 2016 (UTC)
 * Actually, Thranta-class corvette appeared in The Old Republic and not Knights of the Old Republic. Therefore the citation must have been referring to Hammerhead-class cruiser. DarkKnight2149 18:48, October 17, 2016 (UTC)
 * But just because it is based on it, that does not mean it is the canon equivalent. The Rebels clearly weren't flying 3,000 year old ships, but rather vessels that utilized the same model. Darth Ravigious (talk) 20:19, October 17, 2016 (UTC)
 * I don't think tabs need to be that literal. They're a device for readers to navigate. This is clearly a canon version of the Legends ship, even if the circumstances around it are different, so giving readers the ability to navigate between the two is a helpful UX. - Brandon Rhea (talk) 20:29, October 17, 2016 (UTC)
 * I agree with Brandon Rhea. That's also one of the reasons why Moraband and Korriban are linked with tabs, despite not being exactly the same. As mentioned earlier, Kylo Ren and Jacen Solo aren't linked because Ren isn't meant to be a deliberate adaptation of Solo. But addressing Darth Ravigious' point, the Star Wars databank does state that the Hammerhead design dates back centuries. Also, in canon, the Old Republic era remains largely unexplored (so an earlier version of the ship may very well have existed in that period). DarkKnight2149 20:56, October 17, 2016 (UTC)
 * I'm afraid I have to disagree. The Hammerhead corvette is not a canon version of the Hammerhead-class cruiser&mdash;it is merely based on the cruiser's design. The corvette's Databank entries states that they receive their name from a centuries-old design, which implies that they're not the original Hammerhead ship. I think we should have a template at the top of both this page and the Hammerhead-class cruiser page so readers can easily navigate between the two, but I don't think we should have canon and Legends tabs linking the two pages together since they are not the same ship.  Cevan  IMPpress.svg  (talk)  20:56, October 17, 2016 (UTC)
 * But DarkKnight, Korriban and Moraband ARE EXACTLY the same planet. I've yet to see a single difference between them whatsoever. The ships are not, so, in all due respect, I do not think that it is a valid comparison. Darth Ravigious (talk) 22:13, October 17, 2016 (UTC)

The databank entry doesn't state that it's a separate ship. The original Hammerhead could very well be an earlier version of the same ship. Regardless, this is still a canonisation of the Hammerhead cruiser (at least to a degree) and having been based on the Legends ship, I think the tabs are warranted. We also don't know if we'll ever see the original Hammerhead ship in canon. However, Darth Ravigious does raise a point that the canon ship technically has more in common with the Thranta-class corvette. Like the canon Hammerhead, Thranta is a corvette that bases its design on the earlier Hammerhead-cruiser model. Although I think we should leave the tabs the way they currently are, I have taken everyone's arguments into consideration and come up with three different propositions:

1 - We temporarily keep the tab for Hammerhead-class cruiser, but also add a tab at Thranta-class corvette for Hammerhead corvette. If the earliest version of the Hammerhead ship makes an appearance in canon, we remove the tab for the Hammerhead cruiser on Hammerhead corvette and put it on the article for the original Hammerhead canon ship. That way, Hammerhead corvette and Thranta-class corvette will be connected, while Hammerhead-class cruiser/canon and Hammerhead-class cruiser will be connected as soon as it makes a canon appearance.

2 - We remove the tab for Hammerhead-class cruiser entirely and replace it with Thranta-class corvette.

3 - We keep the tabs the way they are.

Thoughts? DarkKnight2149 21:39, October 17, 2016 (UTC) That is getting of topic^, I believe adding the template to the top of the respective is the best thing to do in this situation for the reasons Cevan stated (so I won't repeat them), previously there was a  template on the Hammerhead class cruiser so it seems that the intention to have that template was already there --Lewisr (talk) 20:36, October 18, 2016 (UTC) The problem with simply have the "You may" template is that the "You may" template implies that the two aren't connected, but just so happen to have a similar name. However, I would be willing to agree to this if an article is created for the original Hammerhead ship, as Darth Ravigious suggested (albeit without references to the exact era, because we don't know if it's from the Old Republic era in canon). Does anyone object to me creating such an article? DarkKnight2149 20:52, October 18, 2016 (UTC)
 * You know that there is also a way to connect both the Thranta-class corvette and Hammerhead-class cruiser with Hammerhead corvette via tabs, although the Hammerhead Corvette will only be able to link with one of them. Similar to how the two canon articles Old Republic and Galactic Republic are linked to the single Galactic Republic/Legends article. Darth Ravigious (talk) 22:17, October 17, 2016 (UTC)
 * This page cannot be linked with the Thranta-class corvette because the trivia gallery states the Hammerhead corvette are inspired by designs in Knights of the Old Republic, meaning the Hammerhead-class cruisers. The Thranta-class corvettes are not from KoTOR. Again, the Hammerhead corvette and Hammerhead-class cruiser are two different ships. Both "A Princess in Lothal" and Hammerhead corvette's Databank entry flat out call it a transport, whereas the Hammerhead-class cruiser is a warship. There's also the fact that the Databank says the corvettes received their name due to a centuries-old design, which I stated before. A simple solution to this page linking issue is to just add a template at the top of both this page and the Hammerhead-class cruiser page. They're not the same ship, so they can't make use of the canon/Legends tab.  Cevan  IMPpress.svg  (talk)  22:32, October 17, 2016 (UTC)
 * @Darth Ravigious I know. That's what Proposition #1 was. Link both articles here, then once an article is created if the original Hammerhead is introduced in canon, remove the tab for Hammerhead-class cruiser. DarkKnight2149 22:36, October 17, 2016 (UTC)
 * @Cevan I've already explained my position on the Hammerhead cruiser. It doesn't have to be exactly like the Legends counterpart to be a canonisation. Just look at the canon Dengar compared to Legends Dengar. Aside from being Correllian bounty hunters, the two have almost nothing in common except physical appearance. The source says that it was inspired by the Legends ship, which is enough of a reason to include the tabs. As Brandon Rhea pointed out, it doesn't always have to be taken 100% literally. We don't even know if the original Hammerhead will ever even make a physical appearance and the Databank pretty much said that this is a modern version of that design. And if you want a ship that is identical to the Hammerhead corvette in almost every way, that's exactly what the Thranta-class corvette is. DarkKnight2149 22:48, October 17, 2016 (UTC)
 * You're right that something doesn't need to be 100% like its Legends counterpart to be a canonization, but the Hammerhead corvette and Hammerhead-class cruiser aren't even the same class of ship&mdash;one is a large warship designed for combat, the other is a smaller transport. And, as I've stated before, the corvette's Databank entry says the corvette received its name due to a centuries-old design, so we know right there that a minimum of one other, older Hammerhead ship exists. The corvettes are not ancient ships, merely ships based on an ancient ship design. Just because something is inspired by something else in Legends doesn't mean we should link the pages with the canon/Legends tab system, especially if they're not the same thing. I absolutely agree that there should be an easy way for readers to access the Hammerhead-class cruiser page from this one, and vice versa, and I have already offered the best solution to that problem: just add a template at the top of both this page and the Hammerhead-class cruiser page. The tab system is not to be used in a case like this where something in canon may have been inspired by something in Legends, but they are obviously not the same thing.  Cevan  IMPpress.svg  (talk)  18:52, October 18, 2016 (UTC)
 * I agree. I don't know if we could get away with it due to little info, but someone could make a short article called "Hammerhead ship (Old Republic)", being mentioned in the article of the hammerhead corvette. We could then link that one to the legends cruiser. I think we should also reference that Hammerhead ships were used in the Old Republic era in TOR's canon article. Darth Ravigious (talk) 19:03, October 18, 2016 (UTC)
 * That would be nice, however we unfortunately do not yet know if the Hammerhead design dates back to the Old Republic period in canon. The OR was founded a thousand years before the main SW saga, while the Hammerhead corvette Databank entry only says the design "stretches back centuries," which would put it 200 years before the saga at the earliest, 800 years into the Galactic Republic's reign. It is possible that the design has existed in the OR period and they're just playing it safe for now by calling it a centuries-old design, however that's just speculation at this point so we can't make and article or add that into existing articles. Cevan  IMPpress.svg  (talk)  19:16, October 18, 2016 (UTC)
 * Wait, you mean Galactic Republic was founded a thousand years before the movies right? The Old Republic was reorganized into the Galactic Republic then. But still, 1000 years is still technically centuries. I agree with the whole playing it safe thing though. It seems that they want to avoid touching the Old Republic era, probably due to the MMO's popularity and not wanting to confuse people with ongoing contradictory continuity that may confuse the more casual fans. Darth Ravigious (talk) 19:22, October 18, 2016 (UTC)
 * Whoops, my bad. Yeah, meant to say the Galactic Republic. You're probably right about them not fleshing out the canon OR era yet due to SWTOR still running, and they probably want to flesh out the time period of the films in canon first before delving that far back. Cevan  IMPpress.svg  (talk)  19:38, October 18, 2016 (UTC)
 * Or a netflix series. Lately there's been a surprisingly succesful series of petitions specifically referring to the production of an Old Republic show for Netflix, and chances are that it would include many elements from the games if it were true. I could honestly see most Old Republic era material becoming canon again, save maybe for Malachor V, due to Rebels' unnecessary use of that particular planet. Darth Ravigious (talk) 20:11, October 18, 2016 (UTC)
 * Indeed. I'll go ahead and add the template on to this page, and re-add it to the Hammerhead-class cruiser page. Cevan  IMPpress.svg  (talk)  20:37, October 18, 2016 (UTC)
 * I think that that is the most appropriate solution. Darth Ravigious (talk) 20:42, October 18, 2016 (UTC)
 * What is this original hammerhead ship page that would be created? --Lewisr (talk) 20:59, October 18, 2016 (UTC)
 * As mentioned earlier in the discussion, the citations to the Star Wars site in the article state that Hammerhead corvette is based on a design that dates back centuries and that it was inspired by the Knights of the Old Republic ship. Creating an article on said design (or the original ship) should solve the canonisation argument. DarkKnight2149 21:05, October 18, 2016 (UTC)
 * Okay that makes sense, go ahead --Lewisr (talk) 21:11, October 18, 2016 (UTC)
 * The connection between the two ships is stated in the behind the scenes section of the page. As for "the original Hammerhead ship," I don't think there's enough set in stone about this thing to make an article about it. The Databank entry just says "design;" we don't know if this design is for a ship, or a repulsorcraft, or even an architectural design.  Cevan  IMPpress.svg  (talk)  21:17, October 18, 2016 (UTC)
 * I mean, I know we can't speculate, but it is pretty darn clear that they meant ship design. Blatantly, especially given the obvious nod to KOTOR. Darth Ravigious (talk) 21:20, October 18, 2016 (UTC)
 * @Cevan The full sentence says "Receiving its name thanks to a time-honored design that stretches back centuries, the Hammerhead Corvette is a powerful transport", which implies that the design was for a transport (at the very least), given the context within the sentence. DarkKnight2149 21:24, October 18, 2016 (UTC)
 * Not necessarily. It just says that the Hammerhead Corvette is a transport. For all we know the design could be based on a much larger ship used in the past.
 * Not exactly. All that says is the Hammerhead corvette is a transport&mdash;it doesn't imply that the other ship(s) is/are. I've gone ahead and edited the templates on both pages to better show the connection between the two ships to those who just begin viewing the pages.  Cevan  IMPpress.svg  (talk)  21:34, October 18, 2016 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I was probably being a bit too technical there. Still though, I don't think we know enough about this old thing (or things) to make a whole page for it/them. That info can be covered in a history section on this page. Cevan  IMPpress.svg  (talk)  21:34, October 18, 2016 (UTC)
 * I could just create a draft of the article in my user namespace (example: User:Darkknight2149/Hammerhead design). Then it can be turned into an article when we have more information and sources. DarkKnight2149 21:40, October 18, 2016 (UTC)
 * Sure thing! Sounds like a good idea. Cevan  IMPpress.svg  (talk)  21:41, October 18, 2016 (UTC)
 * It's created. It's in my namespace, but feel free to edit. DarkKnight2149 22:04, October 18, 2016 (UTC)
 * Here's an idea: We can link your article with Hammerhead starship, Hammerhead-class cruiser, and Thranta-class corvette, since they were the canonical Hammerheads.

I'd also think it is better to, instead of calling the article "Hammerhead (design)", just call it "Hammerhead". Darth Ravigious (talk) 22:12, October 18, 2016 (UTC)


 * Those are only canonical in Legends continuity, though I could create a "See also" section. Hammerhead exists as an article about Ithorian, but we can change it if there's a consensus. DarkKnight2149 22:19, October 18, 2016 (UTC)