Wookieepedia:Featured article nominations/Form VII: Juyo / Vaapad


 * ''The following discussion is preserved as an archive of a featured article nomination that was successful. Please do not modify it.

Form VII: Juyo / Vaapad

 * Nominated by: Atarumaster88  [[Image:Jedi_Order.svg|20px]] ( Talk page ) 01:54, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Nomination comments: Form VII, the Way of the BAMF, was more than a fighting style for BAMFs like Samuel L. Jackson; it was a state of mind&hellip;(read the article to see the rest.)

(6 Inqs/2 Users/8 Total)
Support
 * 1) Great work, guys.--Jedi Kasra (talk) 15:58, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
 * 2) Well written, approved after source run-through. DC 21:59, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
 * 3)  Chack Jadson  (Talk)  12:45, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
 * 4) Green Tentacle (Talk) 00:15, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
 * 5) --Eyrezer 03:30, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
 * 6)  —Xwing328 (Talk) 03:21, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
 * 7) Thefourdotelipsis 05:37, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
 * 8) Good show. —Tommy [[Image:Dark side Master SWGTCG.jpg|17px]] ( Nine two eight one ) 05:47, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Oppose
 * 1) From a non-BAMF
 * 2) * You should explain Form VII's retcon in TPM and AOTC in the BtS.
 * 3) **Done. Atarumaster88  [[Image:Jedi_Order.svg|20px]] ( Talk page )
 * 4) * Isn't there a non canon template for a non-canon story in the appearances section?
 * 5) **So there is. Fixed. Atarumaster88  [[Image:Jedi_Order.svg|20px]] ( Talk page ) 20:52, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
 * 6) * Did Darth Maul use Juyo in any of his other appearances in Canon?
 * 7) **Fightsaber is thus far the only source to mention Juyo directly with regards to Maul. Shadow Hunter gives him a lot of Teras Kasi moves, but no Juyo mentions. Most mentions of forms are either in RPG sources or via dialogue/narration. Maul's POV, except for Shadow Hunter, is rarely shown, and he's not exactly the conversationalist of the century. Atarumaster88  [[Image:Jedi_Order.svg|20px]] ( Talk page ) 20:52, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
 * 8) * In Description, you should use info from the ROTS novel, which gives a pretty extensive explanation on how Vaapad works. That is, if that info from the novel isn't restated in the sources you give in that section.
 * 9) **Considering that Stover also wrote Shatterpoint, he uses a lot of the terminology as he does in the ROTS novel. Also, the Fact File and EGTTF used almost verbatim some of his wording. I've given it a small buff. Atarumaster88  [[Image:Jedi_Order.svg|20px]] ( Talk page ) 20:52, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
 * 10) * Are you sure you can't expand the Description of Juyo? It seems short.
 * 11) **Small detail buff given from EGTTF and Fightsaber. I'm really squeezing here, though. A lot of times, Form VII is referred to generically, so a lot of the material in the general section applies to that as well. I'd be waxing redundant if I were to repeat much of the same information. Atarumaster88  [[Image:Jedi_Order.svg|20px]] ( Talk page ) 20:52, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
 * 12) * "Form VII had fewer practitioners than other styles, due to its difficulty, complexity, and demands.[2]" Expand upon this, or merge it into a section, a single sentence section just doesn't work.
 * 13) **Popped it into the Juyo section. Atarumaster88  [[Image:Jedi_Order.svg|20px]] ( Talk page ) 20:52, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
 * 14) * Was Juyo/Vaapad used in the NJO after the Galactic Civil War? If not, mention that nobody used the form anymore or what it evolved into.
 * 15) **Completely unknown. Tionne had records of the form, due to EGTTF, but unlike Ataru, which we know had at least one practitioner in the Legacy era, nobody is explicitly stated to use Form VII. The latest confirmed IU practitioner would be Vader, I suppose. Atarumaster88  [[Image:Jedi_Order.svg|20px]] ( Talk page ) 20:52, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
 * 16) * Go through Windu's sources and see in which ones he dueled in, so you can expand the Appearances section, which I feel is missing stuff.
 * 17) **I respectfully disagree. If the source doesn't say Vaapad, Juyo, seventh form, or form seven, I'm not adding it. I had to purge the list of a bunch of "Well, Mace uses his saber in it, so it must be Vaapad"-style appearances, and I'm not about to re-add them, especially after all that checking. No source has ever stated if Mace exclusively used Vaapad&mdash;in fact, Drallig says in EGTTF that Form VII users have to master all the other forms. Moreover, no source says when he picked up Juyo/developed Vaapad. It'd be original research to add anything else in&mdash;I checked a bunch of the Republic comics and some other sources previously, but if you don't have anything specific in mind, I just don't think there's anything else, given all the work Grunny and myself did. It's not in any of the other Republic comics, it's not in Emissaries to Malastare, and it's impossible for it to be in Stark Hyperspace War or the Yinchorri Uprising&mdash;the forms weren't invented then OOU. I even checked a couple of Mace's Tales comics&mdash;nothing. Atarumaster88  [[Image:Jedi_Order.svg|20px]] ( Talk page ) 20:52, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
 * 18) ***I completely understand Ataru, objection struck.
 * 19) *It's really well-written, I'm just concerned about missing sources, and I just want to make sure you use all info, and not miss anything. DC 19:41, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
 * 20) **I appreciate the compliment. However, I'd like to draw a distinction between all info, and all unique info. A lot of the sources are very repetitive *cough EGTTF cough*, and so while the source list is huge, most of them are fairly minor or repetitive in terms of actual content. Atarumaster88  [[Image:Jedi_Order.svg|20px]] ( Talk page ) 20:52, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
 * 21) ***Okay, that makes more sense then. DC 21:59, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
 * 22) Can you apply Template:Blog to reference 26, and Template:Cite web to refs 28 and 29? 29 should probably separated into a different reference for each site. -LtNOWIS 20:23, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
 * 23) *Applied templates and separated references.  Grunny  ( Talk ) 01:51, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
 * 24) **Looks good. -LtNOWIS 08:47, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
 * 25) From the Chron-O-John of Green Tentacle:
 * 26) * First paragraph of description could do with a brief introduction to the fact that there's two variations before you get into describing them.
 * 27) * "The form's appeared to be unconnected, its motions seemingly unpolished to an untrained observer." Form's what? Missing word? Green Tentacle (Talk) 22:07, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
 * 28) **Both fixed. Atarumaster88  [[Image:Jedi_Order.svg|20px]] ( Talk page ) 23:52, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
 * 29) Eyrezer:
 * 30) * Could you add a line or so as to who Roan Lands was?
 * 31) **Added.  Grunny  ( Talk ) 07:12, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
 * 32) * Throughout the article, I think it would benefit from some dates. It frequently shifts from old Old Republic to the final years of the Old Republic, and if you didn't already know who the people were it would be difficult to track. One example would be to provide a date for the NSW.
 * 33) **Buffed, I think. Let me know if you want some more. Atarumaster88  [[Image:Jedi_Order.svg|20px]] ( Talk page ) 00:45, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
 * 34) * Also, there are three images of Windu using the form; are there any of Billaba?
 * 35) **Added one.  Grunny  ( Talk ) 07:12, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
 * 36) * You should mention in the main body that juyo was another name for vaapad as discussed in the Bts comment on Insider 92.
 * 37) **Mentioned.  Grunny  ( Talk ) 07:12, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
 * 38) * Why the doubt about Juyo/Vaapad in Galaxies? Seems canonical to me.
 * 39) **Well, my assertion is that based on all I've seen, the forms are open to player-built Jedi characters in the game, but I'm unsure as to whether they also apply to NPCs, which would make them definitively canon. Having not played Galaxies, I'm relying on secondary sources here, but I'll ask around. Atarumaster88  [[Image:Jedi_Order.svg|20px]] ( Talk page ) 00:45, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
 * 40) ***I'm not too sure about this one, but Galaxies is Galaxies :p --Eyrezer 03:30, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
 * 41) *As an aside... you should probably add the infobox to your two other lightsaber form FAs. --Eyrezer 07:23, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
 * 42) The last sentence of the intro needs work. It's reads like two completely unrelated sentences that have been combined pointlessly. Overall, the article feels very repetitive, but that's not an objection per se.  —Xwing328 (Talk) 04:12, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
 * 43) *I second the repetitive comment... --Eyrezer 04:55, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
 * 44) **Separated the sentence into two, tried to cut down on some of the repetitiveness. The issue is that there are two subtopics here, and so each has to be described&hellip;and the fact that authors tend to use the same phrases for either Juyo, Vaapad, and/or the form in general does not help. Let me know if there's more you'd like done in that regard. Atarumaster88  [[Image:Jedi_Order.svg|20px]] ( Talk page ) 17:39, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
 * 45) "While Bulq had previously practiced Vaapad with Windu, he was unable to defeat him in combat, though neither did Windu defeat Bulq." - This could be a little more economic, I think. "In his final duel against Darth Sidious in 19 BBY, Windu gave himself over completely to Vaapad after his three Jedi companions were quickly slain by the Sith Lord." - This would tend to suggest that there were other duels between Windu and Sidious. Thefourdotelipsis 02:59, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
 * 46) *Both sorted, I think. Atarumaster88  [[Image:Jedi_Order.svg|20px]] ( Talk page ) 05:34, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
 * 47) Nuevo dos ocho un:
 * 48) * "Form VII: Juyo / Vaapad, also known as The Way of the Vornskr, or The Ferocity Form, was the seventh of seven forms recognized as canon for lightsaber combat by the last Jedi Council." Last Jedi council ever?
 * 49) **Whoops. Old prose. Fixed. Atarumaster88  [[Image:Jedi_Order.svg|20px]] ( Talk page ) 05:34, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
 * 50) * who preserved knowledge of the form into the Sith-Imperial War."" Are there any specific accounts of this? I see none in the body.
 * 51) **As stated below, this information comes from the end of EGTTF. Atarumaster88  [[Image:Jedi_Order.svg|20px]] ( Talk page ) 05:34, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
 * 52) * " Vaapad required a constant and sizable stream of Force use from the user, with a barely contained explosion of Force power inherent within the user." Redundant phrasing, plus it doesn't seem like inherent is being used properly. I feel like you mean something else.
 * 53) **Modified. Atarumaster88  [[Image:Jedi_Order.svg|20px]] ( Talk page ) 05:34, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
 * 54) * "According to Jedi battlemaster Cin Drallig, whose tenure occurred during the final years of the Old Republic," It reads like his tenure was an event.
 * 55) **Varied up some. Atarumaster88  [[Image:Jedi_Order.svg|20px]] ( Talk page ) 05:34, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
 * 56) * Lots of redundant & reused words (also & employed, among others) and phrases throughout. See if you can switch it up a little.
 * 57) **Took a stab at it. Atarumaster88  [[Image:Jedi_Order.svg|20px]] ( Talk page ) 05:34, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
 * 58) * You state that knowledge of Vaapad survived into the Sith-Imperial War, yet no examples or mention is made of this past the intro. I also noticed that there are no Legacy era appearances. Anything?
 * 59) **Clarified, referenced. The knowledge is from the end of EGTTF. Atarumaster88  [[Image:Jedi_Order.svg|20px]] ( Talk page ) 05:34, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
 * 60) * I also saw no mention, minor or otherwise, of Raskta Lsu, who was a master of all lightsaber forms and taught them in the Jedi Temple. —Tommy [[Image:Dark side Master SWGTCG.jpg|17px]] ( Nine two eight one ) 11:26, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
 * 61) **All fixed. Atarumaster88  [[Image:Jedi_Order.svg|20px]] ( Talk page ) 05:34, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

Comments
 * A shout out to Grunny, who did a lot of the work in putting together this article and was incredibly diligent and helpful in this co-project. Atarumaster88  [[Image:Jedi_Order.svg|20px]] ( Talk page ) 04:33, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Any chance of creating and utilizing a lightsaber form template? Founder, date of founding, characteristics, notable users, that kind of thing, could go into it. It'd look much cleaner with a template. -- AdmirableAckbar (Talk) 20:28, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I've had a go at creating one here. What do you think? :-)  Grunny  ( Talk ) 00:57, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Okay, I've created the template and added it to the article, what do you think of it? :-)  Grunny  ( Talk ) 08:01, 17 March 2009 (UTC)