Talk:Commander/Legends

This article could be rewritten to cover the rank and title of Commander in various militaries. --Imp 18:32, 15 Jul 2005 (UTC)
 * Yes, thats what it should be about. -- Riffsyphon1024 18:41, 15 Jul 2005 (UTC)
 * Where does commander officially fall between in Starfighter corps? --User:SFH
 * Just to be confusing, it has several distinct meanings: as a substitute for Brigadier/Commodore in some arms of the military; as an alternative for Lt.-Colonel and/or Major; as a generic title for an officer in command of something. It's probably the messiest term in SW, but you can draw parallels to a variety of different real-world military ranks using 'Commander', etc., and also to French ranks in chef de. McEwok 03:09, 11 Aug 2005 (UTC)

Replaced by Major/Lt. Colonel

 * Where does it indicate that Commander was replaced by Major and Lt. Colonel? -- SFH 05:00, 15 Jan 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, Lt. Col. appears in the later NJO, and the "Commander" ranks have disappeared - changed it to make it a bit clearer... --McEwok 04:29, 11 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Are you talking about Jaina's promotion from Major to Lt. Colonel after the Battle of Ebaq 9? Good God, she had just killed Tsavong Lah, the Warmaster of the Yuuzhan Vong. How do we know she wasn't bumped up a couple of ranks as away of saying "thank you for killing the butcher of Ithor, Duro and Coruscant"? -- SFH 04:33, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm not making myself clear, am I? My point is that I've found no earlier references to any Lieutenant Colonels in Starfighter Command, Rebel, NR or Imperial; Major to Lt. Col. is a perfectly standard promotion, up one rank - what's new is that there's a Lt. Col. rank of any sort, and there are now no reference any more to any "Commander" rank. The ranks have been brought into line with USAF practice, when before they seemed to be something a little different... --McEwok


 * Check out XWA, then. --GrandAdmiralJello 05:50, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Good point. Brain fart on my part. Do you have a full list? IIRC, they're rather odd, the XWA ranks... and they definately don't bind perfectly with the ranks used in the novels. --McEwok 12:01, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Equivalence w/ Commodore

 * The Imperial Navy rank of Commander is unambiguously treated as equivalent to a Commodore on more than one occasion.

Would it be possible to provide examples of these occasions? Stating that evidence exists is not the same as offering evidence.
 * There is a throwaway line in The Bacta War which refers to a Commander being higher than a Captain by virtue of his rank badges. However, other sources debunk this idea. We know there is a distinct rank of Commodore in the Empire from the mention of a Commodor Bevven who commander the Imperial Navy forces at the Battle of Picutorion in The Imperial Sourcebook.
 * Further, we have the distinction of two Commanders being subordinate to Captain Piett (who is Captain by rank not courtesy). Commander Gherant, who was in charge of security aboard the Executor, and Commander Brandei who was in charge of overseeing the Executor's TIE sqadrons and making sure they were battle ready, ref. Decipher. Why would two "Commodores" is that is indeed what Commanders are be placed in a position subordinate to a Captain? Further more Commander Brandei was transferred to the ISD Judicator and was later promoted to Captain (rank not courtesy title) of that ship. How can a Commodore be promoted to Captain? No. Commanders are not the equivilant of COmmodore, they have their own distinct rank, Commander is the same in the Imperial Navy as it is in the USN. Above lieutenant Commander and below Captain. --Jerry 17:24, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Okay.
 * 1.) It's not a "throwaway line"; it's an explicit, canonical statement. Convarion is identified by his insignia as "a Commander, not a mere Captain". There is no source that "debunks" this, no other explicit statement to compare with it.
 * 2.) Other examples of Commanders outranking Captains include Commander Pter Thanas, senior Navy officer at Bakura, who outranks Captain Jamer of the Dominant, and Commander Demming of the Reprisal, who outranks Captain Sankaran in Empire #35. Commander Kratas of the Gorgon is at least implicitly senior to the Captains of the other Star Destroyers at the Maw.
 * 3.) The Imperial Sourcebook gives "Commodore" as a synonym for Systems Admiral, a grade of command between Admiral and Fleet Admiral within a Sector Group: I think this has to be read as a title rather than a permanent rank, and it certainly isn't immediately "above" Captain. A New Republic title of Commodore, distinct from the definate NR rank of commodore, is also known - for instance, General Han Solo is known as "(the) Commodore" when he takes command of the Fifth Fleet in Shield of Lies.
 * 4.) There is no explicit evidence whatsoever to say that the Imperial Navy follows the real-life USN/RN system; nor is there any automatic reason to assume that they should.
 * 5.) There are various ways to explain Gherant and Brandei. For one thing, Gherant is only seen in RotJ, and the image used for Brandei is an officer aboard the Avenger, not the Executor. We can explain them being called "Commander" in at least two ways: there is evidence for officers ranging in rank from Lieutenant to General being addressed vaguely as "Commander", or you could make a case that the cards use an "alternative translation" from Basic that conforms to our USN/RN ranks: there's also a Lieutenant Commander Ardan in CCG, who is actually seen aboard Executor in ESB. Gherant has a Captain's badge (like Ardan in ESB, and like Piett and the officer the card game calls Admiral Chiraneau in RotJ); but Brandei, as a fighter ops officer, could use Army-style ranks... where Commander seems to rank between Captain and Major.

Of course, if you have any further thoughts, feel free to add them here! --McEwok 15:24, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
 * On Kratas, I would like to point out that Gorgon was Admiral Daala's flagship, and as Daala was the senior officer, it would seem that Kratas' functions could have been more like that of an Executive officer, charged with the minute to minute affairs, while senior power would be held with Daala. However, I could be totally wrong about this. -- SFH 20:15, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Things That Make Me Wonder
The universe is a magical place, full of wondrous things. I'd like to take this opportunity to list some of those things.

Things that make me wonder:

I wonder why it is that the brief remark that Cdr. Ait Convarion is "a Commander, not a mere Captain" in The Bacta War is "an explicit, canonical statement," but the fact that Cdr. Gherant was called a "deck officer" who was "hand-picked by Captain Piett" isn't.

I wonder why it is that Pter Thanas is being treated as a case of a commander-qua-commodore, when he was demoted to "commander" by a colonel (who is inferior in rank to a commodore). I wonder why it is that McEwok is comfortable with the ridiculous assumption that a gunner aboard a Star Destroyer in "Model Officer" would be a post captain, and not a gun captain. I wonder why it is that he's also comfortable with assuming that a commander aboard a flagship must be senior to post captains because he happens to be the flag captain.

I wonder why McEwok is so quick to point out that commodore can be both a rank and a title (which is authentic naval practice), but that he doesn't point out at the same time that commander is also both a rank and a title, and that Imperial officers who are not commanders-by-rank (like, oh, say General Tagge or Moff Jerjerrod) have been verbally addressed and referred to as "Commander." I wonder why he doesn't acknowledge the fact that there is no evidence that Com. Bevven (Imperial Sourcebook 2nd Ed.), Com. Zuggs (Rebellion, Lost City of the Jedi), Com. Soleric (Pirates & Privateers), or Com. Dane Tizzin (Stock Ships) are courtesy commodores.

I wonder why we shouldn't assume that the Imperial Navy follows the Anglo-American rank scheme when we've seen Imperial officers with the ranks of ensign, lieutenant, lieutenant commander, commander, captain, commodore, rear admiral, vice admiral, admiral, and fleet admiral. I suppose this is because this system is so radically different from the Anglo-American rank scheme, which uses the completely different ranks of ensign, lieutenant, lieutenant commander, commander, captain, commodore, rear admiral, vice admiral, admiral, and admiral of the fleet/fleet admiral.

I wonder why it is that McEwok thinks that hand-waving and vague complaints of visual inconsistency is evidence that Cdr. Gherant and Cdr. Brandei aren't inferior in rank to post captains. I wonder furthermore why he's comfortable with assuming inconsistent 'translation' that would render the rank as an Anglo-American commander-by-rank, but still insists that the rank does not occur as the rank immediately inferior to post captain. . . which is precisely what it is if it's an "alternative translation from Basic that conforms to our USN/RN ranks." This does not, of course, contradict his claim that "there is no explicit evidence whatsoever to say that the Imperial Navy follows the real-life USN/RN system; nor is there any automatic reason to assume that they should."

I wonder why it is that Cdr. Nemet was identified in the Dagobah Expansion Set as the logistics officer of the Avenger, which would of course make him subordinate to Capt. Lorth Needa, who was a 'mere' post captain. I wonder why Cdr. Desanne was relegated to being a boat officer for dignitaries and high-ranking leaders in the Cloud City Expansion Set, if he's actually a broad-pennant. I wonder why Cdr. Brandei was promoted to captain after the Battle of Endor (according to the Dark Force Rising Sourcebook) if he already outranked mere post captains. I wonder why Cdr. Rosk was navigator and Cdr. Toniv was executive officer of a ship commanded by Capt. Soontir Fel in The Hutt Gambit if they were both broad-pennants superior in rank to their own commanding officer. I wonder why Capt. Redlo Dovlis's XO is also a commander in the same book. I wonder why Maarek Stele was promoted to commander before he was promoted to colonel in The Stele Chronicles, when colonel is equal in rank to a post captain, and therefore inferior in rank to a broad-pennant.

Really, I wonder why there are so many commanders in positions that are clearly and unambiguously inferior to captains, when the rank of commander is, after all, clearly equal to that of commodore.

In fact, since commander is equal to commodore, I wonder why it is that LCdr. Ardan was command duty officer of the Executor in the Dagobah Expansion Set, when he should obviously be some sort of 'vice commodore,' since there's no such rank as that silly, unprecedented Anglo-American rank of commander just below the rank of post captain.

So you're the guy who does Domus Publica? Well, I've always respected and enjoyed your work, and you raiase some good points in there... so here's my response:


 * I wonder why it is that the brief remark that Cdr. Ait Convarion is "a Commander, not a mere Captain" in The Bacta War is "an explicit, canonical statement," but the fact that Cdr. Gherant was called a "deck officer" who was "hand-picked by Captain Piett" isn't.
 * It's quite simple. I think we both agree that Captain and Commander can be generic titles as well as specific positions in the chain of command, yes? Now the Convarion statement concerns the relative positions of "Captain" and "Commander" as indicated by rank badges, and shows that Commander is higher, although officers holding the rank-badge position of Commander can still be addressed as Captain if they're capital-ship commanding officers. The Gherant statement, on the other hand, shows that an officer styled "Commander" (whatever that means in this context) can operate beneath the "Captain" of a Super Star Destroyer; but we know that Gherant wears "Captain" insignia....


 * OOU, the CCG people probably were thinking in terms of Anglo-American ranks, but as we have them two statements aren't directly contradictory. The Bacta War shows that a Commander is above a Captain, as indicated by a different insignia, but CCG shows that lower-ranking officers, at least some of whom bear the same insignia as Captains, can also be addressed as "Commander" in some circumstances. These statements can be reconciled one of three ways: 1.) the rank system changed at some point; 2.) different "translations" are being used; 3.) the lower-ranking "commander" conforms to the well-attested pattern of addressng/styling officers as "Commander" while holding ranks (and wearing appropriate insignia) ranging from Lieutenant to General.


 * I wonder why it is that Pter Thanas is being treated as a case of a commander-qua-commodore, when he was demoted to "commander" by a colonel (who is inferior in rank to a commodore).
 * Good question. I've not yet got round to rereading TTaB (any chance of a page/chapter ref.?), but off the cuff, one possible answer is that a title of "Colonel" (more specifically, High Colonel) may perhaps be borne by officers of higher substantive rank. Another possible solution is that Tyers was treating the entire Imperial Sourcebook rank hierarchy as a single scheme. A third option is that "Captain" and "Commander" indicate positional postings rather than actual substantive ranks. Regardless, Commander Thanas outranks the Captain of the Dominant - does the book they say anything about their rank badges?


 * I wonder why it is that McEwok is comfortable with the ridiculous assumption that a gunner aboard a Star Destroyer in "Model Officer" would be a post captain, and not a gun captain.
 * I don't see this as entirely ridiculous, given that the first officer of Majestic in the BFC holds the rank of Captain. The most significant thing here is that Demmings, with the insignia and title of Commander, is clearly commanding the Reprisal, is also addressed as "Captain", and outranks Captain Sankaran, who carries the classic "captain" insignia, and is the next-most-senior officer seen. Commander Demmings is a senior officer, in other words - but while we're on the terminology, what's your reason for phrasing the discussion in terms of "post captain" and "gun captain"...?


 * One thing I do concede is that Sankaran doesn't need to be a Navy officer: he could potentially be an "Army" captain, which means that we can't hold up as A Model Officer as a definite example of a Commander-above-Captain Navy hierarchy; however, such a hierarchy definately fits with the evience of this story, and it does not offer any reason to countermand the implications of the Convarion reference.


 * This leads onto a question: what sort of position is Sankaran in? He seems to be supervising the gunners, and is probably the ship's gunnery officer, but we don't see any absolutely clear-cut reference: Demmings says "I commend your gunnery crew, Captain Sankaran", which shows that Sankaran has authority over the gunnery crew, but leaves open the possibility that his position is not limited to gunnery; later, he says "I ordered precision fire, Gunners! What happened?" - and Sankaran answers the question, but he wasn't necessarily addressed in the preceding exclamation directed to the Gunners. Options for Sankaran are various: the actual Captain of the ship under Demmings, the XO with the rank of Captain; some lower-ranking grade of Navy captain than Line Captain; an "Army" captain.


 * As it stands, what we can take from A Model Officer is this: Commander Demmings, Captain of the Reprisal with the same insignia and titles as Commander Convarion, Captain of the Corruptor, is evidently a senior officer - he is the Captain of a Star Destroyer, and replaced a Moff on his assignment on Tiss'sharl; he is not likely to rank below Line Captain, and he outranks Captain Sankaran, who weaers the insignia of a Captain, and is the next-most-senior officer seen aboard his command, and who may well - but doesn't necessarily - hold some sort of Captain rank in the Navy.


 * I wonder why it is that he's also comfortable with assuming that a commander aboard a flagship must be senior to post captains because he happens to be the flag captain.
 * Well, for one thing, I'm not assuming a rank equivalent to "post captain", as the only canon terms I know are "Captain" and "Captain of the Line/Line Captain"; nevertheless, I concede that Kratas may be a relatively weak element in the argument... unless there's evidence to indicate his insignia, or evidence that he outranks the other Star Destroyer captains, that is? Is he ever called Daala's second-in-command or is there any description of his rank insignia?


 * I wonder why McEwok is so quick to point out that commodore can be both a rank and a title (which is authentic naval practice), but that he doesn't point out at the same time that commander is also both a rank and a title, and that Imperial officers who are not commanders-by-rank (like, oh, say General Tagge or Moff Jerjerrod) have been verbally addressed and referred to as "Commander."
 * I took it as read that there is a generic title of commander, actually; what there isn't direct evidence for is a specific rank of Commander below Captain, whereas there is direct evidence for a specific insignia and title of Commander ranking above Captain. We can actually account for all lower-ranking officers called "Commander" by use of the generic title, although I don't exclude possibilities like of a change in the rank system over time, or alternative translations of the same titles, or a difference between a positional Commander-Captain-Lieutenant hierarchy and the actual rank structure, or by the presence aboard Navy ships of flight officers and other personnel with Army-style ranks.


 * I wonder why he doesn't acknowledge the fact that there is no evidence that Com. Bevven (Imperial Sourcebook 2nd Ed.), Com. Zuggs (Rebellion, Lost City of the Jedi), Com. Soleric (Pirates & Privateers), or Com. Dane Tizzin (Stock Ships) are courtesy commodores.
 * The only Imperial position of Commodore that we know of is as an alternate title for Systems Admiral, and there's no evidence that these men aren't of this rank. There is also, dare I labour the point, explicit evidence that Commander is above Captain in the Navy....


 * I wonder why we shouldn't assume that the Imperial Navy follows the Anglo-American rank scheme when we've seen Imperial officers with the ranks of ensign, lieutenant, lieutenant commander, commander, captain, commodore, rear admiral, vice admiral, admiral, and fleet admiral. I suppose this is because this system is so radically different from the Anglo-American rank scheme, which uses the completely different ranks of ensign, lieutenant, lieutenant commander, commander, captain, commodore, rear admiral, vice admiral, admiral, and admiral of the fleet/fleet admiral.
 * The primary reason we shouldn't assume that the Imperial Navy follows the Anglo-American system is an explicit, canon reference to Commanders outranking Captains. We could also note explicit references to non-Anglo-American ranks of Captain of the Line and Grand Admiral. We could also note the fact that, far from sitting above Rear-Admiral, Vice-Admiral and Admiral, "Fleet Admiral" sits within a Sector Group hierarchy of Admiral, Systems Admiral/Commodore, Fleet Admiral, High Admiral. We could also note that while the Rear Admiral - Vice Admiral - Admiral hierarchy is almost universal in real-life naval services, the ranks of Lieutenant, Commander, Captain, and Commodore, while very widespread, are and have been used in very different ways in different navies.


 * What you're doing is taking the stated Imperial ranks and lining them up alongside the Anglo-American system; certainly, you can show a number of parallels, but there are also serious exceptions: you can't dismiss these exceptions just because they don't fit. There is no reason to assume that the Empire uses the Anglo-American system, or even a simplistically modified variation thereoff...


 * I wonder why it is that McEwok thinks that hand-waving and vague complaints of visual inconsistency is evidence that Cdr. Gherant and Cdr. Brandei aren't inferior in rank to post captains.
 * There's no evidence that Gherant and Brandei are "Commanders" by rank rather than title; nor for that matter am I aware of evidence for an Imperal rank of "post captain". Against this, we can set the clear rank-badge hierarchy regarding Convarion.


 * I wonder furthermore why he's comfortable with assuming inconsistent 'translation' that would render the rank as an Anglo-American commander-by-rank, but still insists that the rank does not occur as the rank immediately inferior to post captain. . . which is precisely what it is if it's an "alternative translation from Basic that conforms to our USN/RN ranks." This does not, of course, contradict his claim that "there is no explicit evidence whatsoever to say that the Imperial Navy follows the real-life USN/RN system; nor is there any automatic reason to assume that they should."
 * There is no explicit evidence for the use of Anglo-American ranks by the Imperial Navy, and there are several canon examples that clearly cannot fit with the Anglo-American system; however, assuming the use of Anglo-American ranks as an "alternative translation" is one way to rationalise the discrepancies, largely rooted in the CCG - which I suspect used Anglo-American ranks in OOU terms. Another option is assuming a change over time in the Imperial rank system. However, these suggestions remain at present only fanboy inferences. What we can say for sure is that canonically, Ait Convarion is shown by his rank insignia to be "a Commander, not a mere Captain", and this explicit Commander-above-Captain statement is not explicitly countermanded when it comes to insignia or substantive ranks (as opposed to generic titles) by any canon source. Indeed, the bulk of the material supports it.


 * I wonder why it is that Cdr. Nemet was identified in the Dagobah Expansion Set as the logistics officer of the Avenger, which would of course make him subordinate to Capt. Lorth Needa, who was a 'mere' post captain. I wonder why Cdr. Desanne was relegated to being a boat officer for dignitaries and high-ranking leaders in the Cloud City Expansion Set, if he's actually a broad-pennant. I wonder why Cdr. Brandei was promoted to captain after the Battle of Endor (according to the Dark Force Rising Sourcebook) if he already outranked mere post captains. I wonder why Cdr. Rosk was navigator and Cdr. Toniv was executive officer of a ship commanded by Capt. Soontir Fel in The Hutt Gambit if they were both broad-pennants superior in rank to their own commanding officer. I wonder why Capt. Redlo Dovlis's XO is also a commander in the same book. I wonder why Maarek Stele was promoted to commander before he was promoted to colonel in The Stele Chronicles, when colonel is equal in rank to a post captain, and therefore inferior in rank to a broad-pennant.
 * "Commander" Nemet wears a Lieutenant's insignia. "Commander" Desanne wears a Captain's insignia. "Commander" Brandei wears no insignia that we see. "Captain" Soontir Fel was promoted to Major several years later. Maarek Stele flies TIEs, and "Commander" as a rank for flight officers is a different rank grade (though probably with the same insignia), sitting somewhere between Flight Captain and Colonel: I don't know of any evidence to countermand the Lieutenant - Captain - Commander - Major - Colonel hierarchy used by WEG and TIE Fighter, and by the Thyferrans in The Bacta War (where Commander Dlarit is outranked by a Major). And again, I know of no explicit references to a RN style "broad pennant" existing in Imperial terminology.


 * Really, I wonder why there are so many commanders in positions that are clearly and unambiguously inferior to captains, when the rank of commander is, after all, clearly equal to that of commodore.
 * As you said yourself, the answer is 'that commander is also both a rank and a title, and that Imperial officers who are not commanders-by-rank (like, oh, say General Tagge or Moff Jerjerrod) have been verbally addressed and referred to as "Commander.""


 * In fact, since commander is equal to commodore, I wonder why it is that LCdr. Ardan was command duty officer of the Executor in the Dagobah Expansion Set, when he should obviously be some sort of 'vice commodore,' since there's no such rank as that silly, unprecedented Anglo-American rank of commander just below the rank of post captain
 * Ardan wears a Captain's insignia (flipped on his CCG card for some reason, but not in the movie). His is the most problematic rank-title: all the low-ranking "Commanders" can be explained as generic titular commanders; but that said, he's one of only a very few "Lieutenant Commanders" in the Imperial forces: Cracken's Rebel Operatives lists Lieutenant Commander Nim of military intelligence, an alias of Alliance agent Pike Angeles, while Lieutenant Commander Janna Tammok is the head of security for the Imperial consul-general on Bothawui in the Shadows of the Empire Planets Guide. There are certainly ways to explain these ranks without countermanding the explicit canon statement that a Commander has three red tabs over three blue, two code-cylinders, and ranks above a "mere Captain" like Piett or Needa....


 * Ultimately, when it comes down to it, the situation is this. We have explicit evidence for positional Commanders above Captains, with an associated rank insignia; we don't have evidence that any of the Commanders below Captains are any more than generic "Commanders" by title, and/or flight officers or Army officers; nor do we have any specific rank-badge for them. There is a line in on the Commander page which currently reads: In the Imperial Navy, however, the title of Commander usually indicated officers ranking above a Captain but below Admirals, equivalent to a New Republic Commodore....

How can we make it better, and more accurate? --McEwok 17:16, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

You could quit lying. The Imperial Sourcebook lists the ranks above captain. Commander is not one of them. That is far more explicit then one throwaway line in a single source that contradicts dozens of others that has an alternative explanation that works. --User: Lowkey

Um... I'm not lying.

The ISB lists a hierarchy of command positions within a Sector Group - ship's Captain, Captain of the Line, Admiral, Systems Admiral/Commodore, Fleet Admiral and High Admiral. But there's nothing to say that these are all proper ranks, rather than titles denoting position.

In the text itself, Adjudant is mentioned as a positional title, borne by a Captain of the Line as second-in-command to an Admiral. There's also evidence in other canon sources that other ISB titles exist outside the formal rank hierarchy: Michael Unther was a Sector Group's commanding "Admiral" prior to his substantive promotion to Rear Admiral, while the title of "Commodore" is used by officers with squadron commands irrespective of rank, such as by General Han Solo and Major Sil Sorannan in the Black Fleet Crisis books

Moreover. the list omits some widely-used Imperial ranks, like Vice Admiral and, you've guessed it, Commander itself. The canon evidence on the Imperial usage of the title has to coexist with the ISB information, certainly; but the ISB doesn't countermand it. Reverting. --McEwok 14:21, 18 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Imperial Sourcebook, first edition, had a color rank insignia chart that described what all the various rank insignia meant. Sadly, my copy of said book is gone, and that entire set of color pages seems to be missing from the second edition book (at least they're missing from the scans I've found while looking for a replacement). I believe the page in question could shed at least some light on the situation...--Winchester 17:43, 20 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks for your thoughts! I think the page you're thinking of is the one that shows "temporary ranks after the Battle of Yavin" (or some such). It has Lieutenant and Captain with insignia as seen in the movies, then Commander with the insignia described for Ait Convarion in The Bacta War; however, it then shows the Army ranks of Major and Colonel, and General, followed by Admiral and Priority Sector High Commander (=Grand Moff). In origin, it's entirely possible that "Commander" may have been concieved of here as an Army rank, and it has certainly been used as such in other canon material (it looks like a translation of Napoleonic French commandant = Major, where major = a US/British Lieutenant Colonel).


 * However, the Lieutenant and Captain insignia shown here are those of Navy officers of those ranks, as seen in ESB, as is the Admiral insignia at the top. Sure, we don't know what the original intention was, but I'm not even sure that that matters: this implicit Navy hierarchy has been extrapolated out to include the rank insignia and relative authority of a navy officer called a "Commander", most clearly in The Bacta War... as I've already mentioned.


 * Yes, I know it's confusing, but does it make sense? --McEwok 15:00, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Reverting
With apologies to 199.2.120.247 (unsigned edit by the legendary Publius), I'm reverting on his edit.
 * Still no clear evidence presented for Commanders below Captains in the Imperial Navy. As I already said, I'll give you that it was sucrely the CCG's OOU intention to imply Anglo-American ranks in styling Gherant as "Commander" as of Hoth, but K-Mac intended Coruscant to be mostly unspoilt wilderness, and the canon evidence of the CCG has to be handled rigorously, and also to contend with other evidence. Even if we assumed that "Commander" was Gherant's rank rather than a generic title (which we can't!), we don't even "know" canonically that he's a line officer in the navy. Yes, It's eminently possible that the Imperial navy had "real"-style ranks at some point, and the article acknowledges that that (as it should!); but there's no direct evidence to substantiate this, whereas there is evidence, positive and negative alike, for the converse: the description of Convarion as "ex-Imperial naval forces loyal to Thyferran Chief of State Ysanne Isard" is special pleading, and hardly substantiated by the text of The Bacta War, quite apart from the lack of evidence for any purely local revision of rank insignia.
 * Also rewritten Behind the scenes. I've tried to keep as much of Publius' text as possible; but "the English-language model" does not have "clear dominance in the fictional reality of Star Wars".

Sincerely. --McEwok 17:33, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

In the first place, you do not have any evidence that commander is a grade superior to captain in the Imperial Navy. You have the oft-cited instance of Cdr Ait Convarion being said to outrank "a mere Captain" in The Bacta War, but this depends on Fliry Vorru being familiar with naval uniforms and conventions – which is only begging the question, because Vorru has never been shown to be a navy or military man, and he has spent a considerable amount of time in prison. Imperial rank badges are known to have changed at least once during the time in which he was incarcerated on Kessel, and yet you assume that he is reading Convarion's badge correctly. How many civilians can correctly read military uniforms?

Furthermore, even if Vorru is reading Convarion's badge correctly, it is irrelevant. Ait Convarion is not an Imperial officer in The Bacta War, he is an officer in the Thyferran navy, loyal to a rogue warlord, and as such his rank, uniform, and position are completely irrelevant to a discussion of the Galactic Empire's navy. You dismiss this as special pleading, but do not have any sort of argument for supporting the idea that a traitor's uniform is a good guide to the Imperial Navy's usage. Shall we conclude that superior general and supreme warlord are also authentic? Shall we conclude that Apwar Trigit's uniform is authorized? You cannot use the example of a man who is not in the Imperial Navy as a guide to the Imperial Navy's usage. You cannot argue that Ait Convarion proves the Imperial Navy does anything, seeing that he isn't in it.

Secondly, you continually insist that there is no evidence of commanders being inferior in rank to captains in the Imperial Navy, despite the fact that several have been repeatedly cited (e.g., Capt. Redlo Dovlis's executive officer in The Hutt Gambit, and Cdr. Rosk and Cdr. Toniv on board Capt. Soontir Fel's Pride of the Senate in the same source; Cdr. Brandei being transferred to Judicator and promoted to captain in the Dark Force Rising Sourcebook; Cdr. Gherant being a deck officer hand-picked for duty on Executor by Capt. Firmus Piett).You have still not been able to explain the existence of lieutenant commanders like LCdr. Ardan and LCdr. Janna Tammok. You dismiss this evidence with claims that their uniforms are wrong or do not correspond to the Imperial Navy's usage, but at the same time you are unwilling to entertain the idea that Convarion's uniform is wrong or does not correspond to the Imperial Navy's usage.


 * Your arguments are interesting and intelligent, but ultimately, they're all conjecture&mdash;and I don't think it's unfair to say that you're arguing a point you believe in, rather analysing the evidence neutrally.
 * Present textual proof that Convarion is, or regards himself as, a Thyferran officer rather than an Imperial one, or that the forces at Thyferra use non-standard uniforms or ranks.
 * Present similar proof that ex-Moff Vorru has no experience as regards military matters and uniforms. Bear in mind especially the uniformed nature and rank hierarchies of paramilitary organizations such as Imperial Intelligence and the various arms of COMPNOR.
 * Present proof that any of the commanders you cite are commander by rank on the model you claim, rather than holding a generic positional title or the Army/Starfighter (and probably Gunnery/Specialist) rank of the same name. Note that "Captain" Fel is later promoted to Major and Colonel, and thus perhaps unlikely to be a captain by rank rather than courtesy title. Janna Tammok is a security officer commanding stormtroopers, and the comparable Rebel Alliance position of Lieutenant Commander is a mid-ranking Army and Starfighter grade, coming above Captain and below Commander.
 * In the final analysis, what we have is an explicit statement that commanders outrank captains and that this is shown by rank-badges (plus other circumstantial evidence in accord with this claim), and on the other hand, several instances that may indicate an alternate captain-above-commander hierarchy (and probably were intended to in OOU terms) but which can't be explicitly shown to be so, and which can be explained in other ways. Yes, you can raise questions about the accuracy of Vorru's POV, and yes, you can make an argument that other evidence indicates a "Anglo-American" usage; but ultimately, the evidence for commander-above-captain is more explicit, and that's the main issue.
 * Nevertheless... I can see that it could make sense to note the possibility of "Anglo-American" ranks first, so I've reordered my rv text. --McEwok 10:39, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

My dear sir, you cannot shift the burden of proof to me; it is yours, and I expect you to satisfy it. It is you who must prove that the rank of a man who is not in the Imperial Navy should be taken as an authoritative guide to the Imperial Navy's chain of command. The proof that Ait Convarion no longer considered himself an officer in the Imperial Navy is the fact that he was serving the Chief of State of Thyferra rather than his lawful superiors in the Imperial Navy. Given that fact, I reject your suggestion that he is a valid example of Imperial practice; he, like "Supreme Warlord" Harrsk and "Superior General" Delvardus, is a traitor, not a loyal officer.

Furthermore, your argument relies on Vorru's knowledge of Naval parlance and practice. It is therefore incumbent upon you to demonstrate that a man who has never demonstrated any particular familiarity with Naval practice should be taken as a reliable expert on Naval etiquette. The films themselves show that Imperial rank insignia changed at least once during the period of 35 to 39 ABY, and yet you expect a man imprisoned in a maximum security penitentiary for a decade or more to be an authoritative source? If you would rely on his expert witness testimony, then you must demonstrate his credentials. Why should his word be taken, especially when it contradicts other depictions of commanders as being subordinate to captains?

Do not insult my intelligence by pretending that vague intimations that these commanders "might not" be commanders is sufficient to support your argument. I expect you to demonstrate that they are consistent with the rank of commander that you propose, and to further demonstrate why it is appropriate for officers who do not command anything to be addressed as commander if they are not in fact commanders. Furthermore, if you intend to argue that they are not in fact commanders, then I expect you to explain what rank they actually hold. Since you have arrogated unto yourself the position of expert on naval affairs, I expect you to explain -- in a manner consistent with naval practice -- what rank and position these officers hold, if -- as you insist -- the plain evidence and authentic naval practice should not be accepted. I will further point out that the "promotion" of Captain Fel to major and then colonel depends on the infallibility of the notional scribe who wrote his biography in The New Essential Guide to Characters, something that I reject. That document is notionally a collection of biographies written by a character in-universe, subject to error even within the framework of canon.

I repeat that you have an explicit statement that a traitor in another navy outranks a captain, and I adamantly reject the idea that this is authoritative vis-à-vis the Imperial Navy. It is more explicit, but it is also irrelevant. I have reversed your edit, and will continue to reverse it until such time as you present a coherent argument that satisfies the evidence and authentic practice.


 * He's serving the Director of Intelligence, who is probably still exerting authority by virtue of her legitimate emergency powers. "Madam Director", as he and her other subordinates call her. She may be running the Thyferran régime, but can you show me that she's not doing so in addition to her existing duties?
 * Beyond that... you're handwaving. Offering a whole lot of maybe. Your argument rests upon assumptions every bit as much as mine... except that unlike me, you don't have a shred of specific evidence to back yourself up. And more to the point, you're traducing my aim here, which is simply to present a nuanced and neutral survey of the evidence. The various possibilities and indications offered by the evidence are noted, but indulging in extensive speculation in pursuit of the tenuous and unproveable theory that Convarion isn't in the Imperial Navy doesn't fit there. If you have any suggestions for a better wording to allude to the possibility that Convarion's insignia are non-standard, without prejudicing the evidence that they're not, or rendering the section over-complex... feel free to make the suggestion here in the Talk page. --McEwok 20:57, 24 August 2006 (UTC)