Talk:Lightsaber combat/Legends

Material from Lightsaber

 * I took this from lightsaber. --GenkiNeko 11:01, 14 May 2005 (UTC)
 * So you're saying that you would like the explanations in the article to include any additionaly information given here? &mdash;qrc 18:47, 15 May 2005 (UTC)
 * I think he meant to state that he deleted the following lengthy paragraphs from the lightsaber article, but preserved them here. Sadly, the sources are missing - that would clear up many questions of this article. Much of the following appears to be original research, though. &mdash;Gen.d 10:59, 22 May 2005 (UTC)

Form I
(Kit Fisto, Evan Piell) When lightsabers first replaced the older, traditional swords of metal the first Form was created. Known as Shii-Cho, it is based on ancient sword-fighting traditions and the basic principles of blade combat remain much the same. The basics of attack, parry, body target zones, and the practice drills called velocities are all here. Sometimes called the ideal form, Form I used horizontal side-swipes and parries made with the blade of the lightsaber held upright to push the point of an enemy's blade away during a side-to-side attack. If the attack is a downward slash aimed at the head, Form I simply reversed the motion, with a horizontally-held lightsaber being moved up and down to deflect a blow. Younglings, the Jedi initiate rank, first learn Form I before they begin a Padawan apprenticeship with a master. Quite basic, but deceptively simple--a true master would be able to overcome an opponent who looks down on the style with relative ease, since mastery of beginners' techniques often proves to be more complex, subtle, and useful than more flashier styles. Form I is known for its mindset, where its user releases oneself into the force to become faster, wilder, more agressive, and more random. This agressive style is dangerous to the spirit in ways only Form VII can match. Shii-Cho is also known for the agility and improvisation its masters show. There is also a focus on disarming an opponent. Since Form II was created to answer the weaknesses of Form I, Form II users are more likely to defeat Form I. Forms IV and VII are two other styles Shii-Cho is ill-equiped to defeat, with their unconventional tactics.

Form II
(Dooku, Tholme) The ultimate refinement of lightsaber-to-lightsaber combat became Form II, advancing the precision of blade manipulation to its finest possible degree and producing the greatest dueling masters the galaxy has ever seen. Known as Makashi, this ancient Jedi Knight lightsaber combat technique was developed when pikes and staves were more common in the galaxy. Essentially, lightsaber fencing--thrust, parry, riposte, backward and forward footwork--whereas all the others are some type of swordsmanship, utilizing slashing and cutting. Form II emphasized fluid motion and anticipation of a weapon being swung at its target, allowing the Jedi to attack and defend with minimal effort. In the time near the Clone Wars, the Jedi Order seldom practices this technique. There is, if at all, so little lightsaber-to-lightsaber combat involved in a Jedi's life that Jedi have found it not practical. Even with the resurgence of the Sith, confrontation of an enemy with a lightsaber is an exceedingly rare prospect for a Jedi, so they continue to focus on more practical Forms. Sith expecting to battle lightsaber-wielding Jedi, however, find Form II a powerful technique. It's not as good against ranged weaponry, though a modern master of it can be at least as good against ranged weapons as most other Jedi, but nearly unbeatable against another lightsaber. This form is so precise and swift that a master can easily avoid being disarmed, and disarm an opponent without damaging an opponent's weapon if he/she so chooses. The mindset here is calm and under control, allowing for better technique and strategy. Makashi masters are generally at ease even in life threatening situations, but this results in a lack of adrenaline seen in the other forms. Force users(especially Darksiders) who practice this form unkowningly weaken themselves if they give into Form II's mindset, since they can co longer give the force complete control(or for Darksiders, their empowering anger). Form II's greatest weakness is its lack of power, a master of Form V is a serious threat. However, all other forms(besides Form IV) are at a disadvantage to Form II in lightsaber combat.

Form III
(Obi-Wan:+2 years after Ep.I and on, Plo Koon) Known as Soresu, Form III was developed by the Jedi Knights, after blaster weapons became the normal weapon of choice among criminals and underworld beings. Form III thus arose from "laserblast" deflection training. Over the centuries it has transcended this origin to become a highly refined expression of non-aggressive Jedi philosophy. Form III uses tight, efficient moves, leaving no target areas exposed compared to the relatively open style of some of the other Forms. Unlike Form II combat, which was developed to work against another lightsaber, Form III is most effective in anticipating and deflecting blaster fire. It stresses quick reflexes and fast positional transition, in order to overcome the rapidity with which a blaster can be fired. As the supreme defensive style, true Form III masters are believed almost invincible. But as a side effect, this Form isn't useful in attack, making the precise and aggressive, but restained Form II a problem for Form III, as well as the unpredictably lethal Forms I and VII. This simple form is known for its blinding defensive velocities, and has a unique mindset in which the user abandons their own identity,and becomes one in spirit with the Force. This state allows for incredible reflexes, and an unerring ability to percieve the present situation and take the best course of acton.

Form IV
(Yoda, Qui-Gon) Form IV is the most acrobatic Form ever developed. Known as Ataru, this was one of the more recent lightsaber combat techniques, developed by the Jedi Knights during the last decades of the Old Republic. In this Form the Jedi uses all of the ways in which the Force helps them go beyond what is physically possible, heavily emphasizing Jedi abilities to run, jump, and spin in phenomenal ways by using the Force to outmaneuver and overwhelm an opponent from multiple angles. In order to achieve the acrobatic prowess, amazing reflexes and physical punch of this form, a Jedi focuses on the Force, letting it flow deeply throughout their entire physicality, even allowing them to overcome the limitations of old age. This form of lightsaber combat is astonishing to watch, filled with elaborate moves in the center of which a Jedi may be all but a blur. The Form has found a niche among the eager Padawan learners of the time, who believed that the Jedi needed to become more involved in rooting out crime and evil and eradicating it. Its defenses are rather weak, however, and Forms V and VII are well adapted to take advantage of that. Form II v.s. Form IV presents a paradox, Makashi fencing tactics aren't useful against an opponent who is everywhere, but Ataru acrobatics can't be easily used against an opponent who keeps you from staying in the same place long enough to launch a productive assault. This contest would be decided by mastery of one's own form, knowledge of the opponents, and any number of other factors.

Form V
(Anakin:+7 years after Ep.I and on, Saesee Tiin) Known as Djem So, Form V is known for its power. It was developed by Form III practitioners that preferred a more offensive angle and felt that while the defensive nature of Form III proved to be undefeatable it could not overcome the enemy and only dangerously prolonged combat. Form V focuses on strength and lightsaber counterattack moves. This Form maintains its existence through having sufficient defensive skills, as derived from Form III, but channeling defense into offense. It is commonly cited as an example that while Form III combatants effortlessly deflect blaster bolts, Form V practitioners excel at redirecting the bolt towards the opponent. This at the same time defends the user and efficiently injures the enemy. Practitioners skirt the Dark Side due to the aggressive basis of the style. To many Jedi Form V represents the philosophy of "peace through superior firepower", and might seem a worthy discipline, prepared for any threat. Others debated the philosophy of Form V, claiming that it directs inappropriate focus on hurting another being. The sheer physical power of this form makes it viciously overwhelming, but when it comes to lethal against lethal, Form V simply can't beat Form VII. Additionally, Form III's nigh invincible defenses totally negate Form V's advantage, while Form V gets sloppy when faced with an impenetrable form. The basics of Form I also present a challenge to Djem So practitioners.

Form VI
(Yarael Poof, Coleman Trebor) Known as Lus-Ma, this Form balances the emphases of other Forms with overall moderation, in keeping with the Jedi quest to achieve true harmony and justice without resorting to the rule of power. At the beginning of the Clone Wars, Form VI is the current standard for Jedi. It is considered the "diplomat's Form" because it is less intensive in its demands than the other disciplines, allowing Jedi to spend more time developing their knowledge of political strategy and negotiation - along with their own perceptions - to reach a peaceful decision with minimal bloodshed. Practitioners also learn to use body language and short, soothing words, phrases, and sounds to use in battle as an additional way of perhaps talking an opponent out of a fight after weapons have been drawn. In practice, Form VI is a combination of Forms I, III, IV, and V, emphasizing the use of those techniques in overall moderation. Young Jedi spend their first few years studying Form I and then a year or two with each additional Form before completing their training. By comparison, a Form VI master will spend at least ten years studying only that Form after completing the basic Form I training. Form VI well suits the modern Jedi's role in the galaxy, in which a Knight overly trained in martial combat might be at a loss to resolve a complex political conflict between star systems. However, full masters of other Forms sometimes consider Form VI to be too demanding of the Jedi's time in regards to its benefits on the battlefield. However, a scant few masters of this form wield so much skill in the style that almost no one can overcome them.

Form VII
(Juyo:Alta Ranga, Darth Maul; Vaapad: Mace Windu, Depa Billaba) Only high-level masters of multiple Forms can achieve and control the ultimate discipline known as Form VII. Still in development as of the time of the Clone Wars since so few Jedi can achieve the necessary mastery to advance the art. Known as Juyo, it is the most difficult and demanding of all forms, but leads to fantastic skill and power. This Form employs bold, direct movements, more open and kinetic than Form V but not so elaborate in appearance as Form IV. Form VII uses wide and open lightsaber moves, combined with Force-assisted jumps and movements. Form VII employed the use of overwhelming power directed through unconnected, staccato swings and movements sometimes seeming like basic, uneducated flailing, coming in no discernible pattern that keep an opponent continually off-guard. But this is also what makes it a lot more difficult to execute, than the linked move sequences of Form IV. This Form requires the intensity of Form V, but uses more energy since that focus is wielded more broadly because of the wider moves. The outward bearing of a Form VII practitioner is one of calm, but the inner pressure is extremely focused, drawing upon a deeper well of emotion than even Form V, yet masters it more fully. The style calls upon the Force to directly and instinctively direct strokes and parries, rather than a set of practiced offensive and defensive maneuvers allowing for more accuracy and explaining the seeming randomness. This form is rather dangerous, when used by untrained and unfocused minds. The deep well of emotions can lead to the release of anger. And trigger temptations towards the Dark Side. Mace Windu's master developed this form and taught it to him. Mace Windu later developed a style completing Juyo, known as Vaapad. This particular style emphasizes skirting the edge of the Dark Side even more than Juyo, and also makes use of an idea that allows a Jedi to redirect all of an opponent's strengths and weaknesses back at them. The calm efficiency of Form II and the Force-powered devastation of Form IV are Form VII's only weaknesses. Before Vaapad was created, Juyo was an incomplete form, not one of the basic forms. It shared this title with Sokan(Palpatine), Niman(the Dark Woman), Shien(Ki-Adi-Mundi), and the martial arts/lightsaber form Kai-Kan(which is also the name for martial arts/lightsaber duel reenactments)(Agen Kolar). Note: Niman is not the double lightsaber form, nor does Shien use the backwards grip. Also, Sokan teaches anything but to have a drawn out terrain based duel. There also variaton forms:Rolling Boulder(Vader), Slashing Dragon(Cin Drallig), Flaring Star(Eeth Koth), Spinning Shield(Ep.III/IV Obi-Wan), Spiraling Hammer(Ep.III Anakin), Weaving Serpent(Micah Giett), Lashing Lizard(Grievous' specialty, Fluttering Bird(Dooku), and Shadow Bat(Darth Bane).
 * Wait a minute, what's the deal with all the names in ""? Admiral J. Nebulax 20:39, 10 Dec 2005 (UTC)

Form Names

 * Why is there confusion to the names of the forms? I notice that before, Form V was "Shien / Djem So," but now just "Djem So," and Form VI was once "Niman" but is now&hellip; "Lus-Ma"?  As far as I can tell from the more reliable resources, the correct terms are Form V as having two variations, "Shien" used by Anakin (as read in ROTS novel) and "Djem So" used by Aayla Secura (as read in ROTS Visual Dictionary).  I'm not sure about Form VI, though. &mdash;qrc 15:18, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Ha! ROTS states that Anakin uses Djem So, but Dooku seems suprised despite the fact that Anakin uses the same form on Geonosis, hence the variaton forms.

Dual-blades?
Should there be a section-added for the dual-bladed form used by Exar Kun and Darth Maul? Thanos6 16:36, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I belive that there should be, but what is the name of there fighting form? --Dylankidwell 01:44, 24 Sep 2005 (UTC)


 * Damned if I know, just that there is one. Thanos6 12:38, 8 Nov 2005 (UTC)


 * I don't know if there's a name for it - and if there is, then I obviously don't know it. I think that either it should be included under 'The unorthodox' or there should be a separate article (like there are for the forms and other styles/methods of lightsaber combat) with a link to it in the 'Other forms of lightsaber combat' section KEJ 13:27, 8 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * The Form VII article says that Darth Maul used a variant of Juyo.


 * From my knowledge, I think that Double-bladed sabers should be just considered a new form. As to the name, hell if I know...
 * Well, you can have a dual-bladed lightsaber and still use one of the known forms. Therefore, it doesn't have to be its own form. Admiral J. Nebulax 22:15, 6 Dec 2005 (UTC)

Splitting and Out of Universe material
Which information is Out-of-Universe material? Which should be split? I think that only the forms VIII+ should be removed or placed elsewhere. &mdash;qrc 19:54, 6 Jul 2005 (UTC)
 * A simple solution would be to have this article focus on overall combat, mention the forms but include a "See full article..." link. --SparqMan 20:59, 6 Jul 2005 (UTC)

A lightsaber category
Shouldn't we have a lightsaber-related category, or is the Jedi-category enough?

Pictures
Could we get some pictures of the practitioners of the forms actually fighting? All the pictures in the forms are just poses. -- SFH 05:46, 8 Nov 2005 (UTC)

Marks of Contact
Choi Mai is considered honorable because cutting off an opponets hand doesn't permanetly damage the opponent? The opponent suffers an amputation! What Sith made up the rules here? -- SFH 21:03, 23 Dec 2005 (UTC)