Forum:CT Archive/Jack Nebulax

This thread is intended to work sort of like Wikipedia's requests for arbitration page. Except we don't have a designated arbitration committee and probably won't. Instead, all Wookieepedians are welcome to state their opinions. The final decision will be discussed by the admins collectively.

We're going through this because I think that we should not unilaterally permablock long-term contributors without prior discussion.

What is needed:
 * 1) Objective evidence of his disruptive behavior.
 * 2) Objective evidence that all other means of dispute resolution have been tried and failed.
 * 3) Public comments from Jack himself, directed at no specific users but at the Wookieepedia community in general.

Whatever the final community decision is, I will respect it, and I urge other administrators to respect it as well.

I ask other admins for cooperation rather than unilateral action, regardless of their views on the matter. We're talking about a long-term contributor here, and permablock is, effectively, "capital punishment" that, I feel, should not be applied to long-term contributors. If you believe that I'm abusing my power by starting this public process... go ahead, delete this thread and put me on RFRA. I won't object. It will only mean that a compromise of any sort has completely and utterly failed.

- Sikon 04:14, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Jack Nebulax has been blocked many times
Most of these are for the violation of the 3RR. Please add any others that I may have missed.


 * 13:37, 19 June 2007 Darth Culator (Talk | contribs | block) blocked "Jack Nebulax (contribs)" with an expiry time of 1 week (anonymous users only, account creation disabled) (Shortened from permanent to 1 week. Delaying the inevitable.)
 * 19:50, 18 June 2007 Darth Culator (Talk | contribs | block) blocked "Jack Nebulax (contribs)" with an expiry time of infinite (anonymous users only, account creation disabled) ("Persistent habitual unreconstructible edit warring." Per Havac's very well-stated message on your talk page.)
 * 1) *Cleared: 09:48, 19 June 2007 Sikon (Talk | contribs | block) unblocked Jack Nebulax (contribs) (Me! Me first!)
 * 10:24, 18 June 2007 Darth Culator (Talk | contribs | block) blocked "Jack Nebulax (contribs)" with an expiry time of 1 day (anonymous users only, account creation disabled) (Continuing edit war after admin warning)
 * 1) *Cleared: 10:45, 18 June 2007 Darth Culator (Talk | contribs | block) unblocked Jack Nebulax (contribs) (Per IRC agreement)
 * 08:46, 18 March 2007 Imperialles (Talk | contribs | block) blocked "Jack Nebulax (contribs)" with an expiry time of 1 day (Continuing the flamewar after repeated warnings.)
 * 16:33, 28 February 2007 Jaymach (Talk | contribs | block) blocked "Jack Nebulax (contribs)" with an expiry time of 1 day (Three revert rule)
 * 19:55, 19 February 2007 Silly Dan (Talk | contribs | block) blocked "Jack Nebulax (contribs)" with an expiry time of 1 day (three-revert rule)
 * 1) *Cleared: 20:11, 19 February 2007 Silly Dan (Talk | contribs | block) unblocked Jack Nebulax (contribs)
 * 18:52, 2 February 2007 Atarumaster88 (Talk | contribs | block) blocked "Jack Nebulax (contribs)" with an expiry time of 2 hours (Personal attacks; cooldown)
 * 21:47, 1 January 2007 Darth Culator (Talk | contribs | block) blocked "Jack Nebulax (contribs)" with an expiry time of 1 day (3RR violation.)
 * 1) *Cleared: 10:27, 2 January 2007 Sikon (Talk | contribs | block) unblocked Jack Nebulax (contribs) (visited IRC, promised not to complain about the ban)
 * 19:26, 28 September 2006 Jaymach (Talk | contribs | block) blocked "Jack Nebulax (contribs)" with an expiry time of 1 day (24 hour cooloff ban, as I said would happen, due to breaking the 3 Revert Rule on the Mustafar page.)
 * 1) *Cleared: 19:38, 28 September 2006 SFH (Talk | contribs | block) unblocked Jack Nebulax (contribs) (Edit deemed justified.)

Over-zealotry
Well don't forget his major stint with (Perplexed-4E-Turnitee) over some additions into the Grand Army of the Republic article. For more see Forum:SH Archive/Complaints on an overzealous Wookiepeedian, User talk:Kuralyov/Archive3 and User talk:Jack Nebulax/Archive 12. Though that guy was probably on the wrong side as well, Nebulax was overreacting and kind of harsh towards him. Zainal 09:54, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Adminship
Jack Nebulax also made four attempts to attain the position of administrator but was defeated by the vast majority of Wookieepedians. For more, see User:Jack Nebulax/Requests for adminship which I found at his own user page. Mynz 10:12, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
 * This is irrelevant to the case. - Sikon 13:23, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Maybe, but it does provide some (not a lot) background on his past behavior to those who are unaware.  StarNeptune Talk to me! 15:43, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I have to agree with Sikon there. I'm sure that if I were to apply for adminship, it wouldn't go through either. If I had repeated rejections, would that be enough to permaban me? I hope not. Jack's rejected requests do not tell us anything about him as such, but only that other Wookieepedians don't like him. I don't think this is suitable as evidence, at least not good evidence. To get an insight into his behavior, people should track his edits and have a look at them first hand. Note that I'm not defending him, it's just that a permaban is a serious thing, so I'm just pointing out that the evidence should be more substantial than what has been presented so far. KEJ 17:04, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I think it can be used as evidence as that others don't think he is suited for adminship. Too impatience, controlling, defiant. It also shows that he really hasn't learned to take a long break and simply concentrate on behaving, then run. Chack Jadson 17:11, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
 * All it shows, imo, is what other people think about him. That's not objective evidence. KEJ 17:18, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
 * True. Chack Jadson 17:21, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
 * It should be noted then that whenever the popular opinion turned against him, he basically sulked and played a pity card. -- Redemption [[Image:Redemptionusersymbol.png|20px]] Talk 17:56, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
 * The adminship votes failing, I agree, are probably irrelevant. What I am reminded of with those, is how he has promised to change and do better, but in the long term did not.  And I do believe that is relevant. WhiteBoy 23:48, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
 * That's the trend that I saw while reading through it. Greyman ( Paratus ) 23:49, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Talk-page craziness
Talk:Mohrgan is perhaps the classic example. I almost want to believe that Jack's a comedian of sublime genius. --McEwok 01:52, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Relevant policies

 * Blocking policy
 * Three-revert rule

Statement by Jack Nebulax

 * Exactly how is Jack supposed to make any statements in his defense when he's blocked right now? - JMAS 23:33, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Honestly, what would he say that he hasn't already said? Promise to change his ways AGAIN? Whine about how everyone is against him AGAIN? Kuralyov 01:10, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
 * He can come to IRC and ask to be temporarily unbanned to make a statement here. - Sikon 03:02, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Statement by Havac
OK, I just want to get everything out into the open here. I'm having login troubles, so I can come in here, check my watchlist, and after that one action I'm pretty much logged out. So I checked my watchlist, found that an edit had been made to Parck, and checked it out. Jack had made some changes, the most important of them to me being the removal of several images which were not of Parck, but illustrated points being made in the article (there are only, I think, two actual pictures of Parck in canon). I looked at his edits, changed some, like the images, and kept most of it, except the galaxy/Galaxy capitalization, which was simply too tedious for me to edit back in (it was easier for me to work off the earlier version). That edit was as an anon. Jack performed a blanket reversion. It was clearly impossible, given the time involved, for him to actually have read all my changes. I set it back to my compromise version. I then posted on his talk page, telling him that his blanket reversions of any changes to his edits were unacceptable edit-warring behavior. I was a little steamed at this point to have my edits not even considered, but I intended to make the point that I would not tolerate an edit war. This edit was as an anon, but I appended my name to the message, and my userpage very prominently states my situation.

Instead of responding constructively and trying to hammer out a compromise, Jack reverted it back to the "pure Jack" version with an edit summary which attempted to boss me around. "Reverted, again. Do not change it again," were his words. He then posted a very rude reply on his talk page basically saying my version was utter crap, his was infinitely better, and I had better not edit again (or what?). In his words, "Your version is horible. I'm cleaning it up for this wiki. Do not revert it again. The only thing I considered when looking at your version was how to improve it."

I had told him not to edit war, and he continued to do it in the most aggressive way possible. I looked at his block history and found that he had been blocked eight times already, seven for edit warring. This was his eight edit warring offense. In my opinion, the fact that he was able to cry until he got a compromise on some of those cases was not relevant to the fact that he had offended and been banned. This was his eight offense. I checked WP:BLOCK, and it proscribed an infinite ban after the fourth offense. Again, I did not consider it my fault that prior admins had taken lenient positions on his first eight bans. That was their right. However, that does not obligate me, IMHO, to act as if this had been his second or third offense. It wasn't. I wasn't responsible for other admins' behavior, but I was for mine, and I would enforce policy without giving Jack special dispensation. I said in my adminship questions that I would strive to treat established and unestablished users equally, and I believe that that is what should be done. The fact that the community is acclimated to Jack's presence does not erase or ameliorate his offenses, and I don't feel that he deserves special treatment for having been around two years fixing commas, or that anyone else would if they offended.

I looked at his past history of behavior. He had been warned time and time again about the unacceptablity of his juvenile edit warring. He had promised to change every time. Every time he got banned, he played the pity card, he played the contributor card, he played the repentance card. Not a single time did he change his behavior pattern one iota. He's had eight chances, not even taking warnings into account, and he has blown each and every one. In fact, his rate of banning (and presumably of offending) has picked up with time. I had no reason whatsoever to think that any ban of any duration would cause him to change his ways. Instead, it enabled him and allowed him to continue the drama show that feeds his massive ego (really, is there any other reason to have a "de facto admin" sign on your userpage?). It was apparent that the only solution was a permanent ban, because nothing whatsoever could get through to him. I've no doubt whatsoever that when he gets back, he will mope and claim he's learned his lesson and poor pitiful picked-on him will be a model user. And for a week it'll hold. Then he'll forget about it, get into an edit war, and get permabanned. It's his behavior pattern.

So I prepared the statement permabanning him. I logged on to IRC and posted the statement for review, to see if anyone thought I was out of line. Universal response was that it was a hard line to take, but my reasoning was completely sound and my action was justified. The only other admins present, Darth Culator and LordHydronium, supported my action. Having consulted with all the community I could get on short notice, I posted the statement. As I was logged out and could not log in, I had to ask Culator to perform the actual ban.

It was late and I had to go to bed. I logged on the next day to find that Jack had gone crying to IRC, where the issue was taken over my head and behind my back to give Jack his five hundredth chance to blow. Frankly, I felt rather disrespected that I had not been consulted before action was taken to reverse my penalty, which I felt was justified and in line with policy. I contacted the parties that I had been led to believe were involved in the compromise (being Sikon, WhiteBoy, and Culator) and expressed as much and questioned just why Nebulax deserved special treatment. WhiteBoy suggested that it wasn't proper to permaban without an explicit warning saying permabanning was next. I personally feel that a quick look at WP:BLOCK should be all the warning Jack needs, but I totally understand that position and an therefore willing to work within the compromise.

Sikon, however, expressed a belief that established users should not be permabanned under any conditions (he was actually the first that I spoke with). I pointed out that this was not in line with policy, and he responded that he didn't agree with policy and would not allow it to be enforced. Not just that he wouldn't go out of his own way to enforce it, which is understandable, but that he would not allow anyone else to enforce it themselves. I responded that administrators have an obligation to play by the rules, and that if he will block the enforcement of any rules he does not personally care for, he is effectively setting himself up as dictator. Sikon felt that anything less would compromise his personal style and moral sense. He said that the only possible way he would compromise would be to set up an arbitration committee. When I pressed him on the issue of enforcing the rules, he abruptly left. I now find that he has set up this thread, without any IRC consensus (that is where the discussion took place) to do so.

Frankly, I don't recognize the validity of an arbitrarily and unilaterally set-up process with no precedent in policy and see no reason why the entire community is needed to ban a user, no matter how high an editcount he might have. Rules are rules, and Jack broke them time and time again. This entire thread is a form of preferential treatment I do not feel he or anyone else deserves, and I don't see how it's the community's job to do the administrators' jobs for them. Frankly, I'd like the compromise to stand, and this illegitimate tribunal to be shut down. A vote can be taken at any point to set up an arbitration committee. But until that step is taken, Sikon does not have the authority in and of himself to dictate policy and structure of this wiki. Havac 01:11, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment: I agree with basically everything Havac has said, except that I don't think this is an illegitimate tribunal. If Sikon had been wheel-warring, and overriding the desires of the rest of the admins to keep Jack blocked, that would have been bad.  But this thread basically moves this question to a "committee of the whole" for comment, which is probably the best thing to do at this point. &mdash;Silly Dan (talk) 01:41, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
 * My main problem is that Sikon, with no consultation or justification, has set up a system with the power to ban or unban users. Next time there's any controversy -- even if it's a new user who gets banned -- they're going to demand a community vote. It's preferential treatment for Jack. If any user with his behavior pattern, other than he himself, were involved, there would be no question at all. But he moves a lot of commas, so admins are stripped of their power to ban him and a new system for bannings and precedent for such a thing to happen again is set up with no consultation by an administrator who has effectively declared himself above the rules. There's no community consensus established for it before it was created and given these extraordinary powers, so I don't see what legitimate justification this thread/system has for its power. Or what if, next time Redemption offends someone, that user sets up a CT called "Redemption: In or out?" calling for the community to vote on banning him? I think we need to establish firmly that, no matter who you are, you can't just invent a new process and give it incredible powers on your own personal authority. Havac 02:02, 21 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I suppose what would aid in that, Havac, is the establishment of a new, realistic but absolutely ironclad system that is applicable to everybody. As DarthMRN below has pointed out, a LOT of valuable people would be perma-banned now by the old rules. This wouldn't be the first time in history that a problem has given rise to revised and improved policy that supersedes the old one. Happens all the time: slavery, conduct in wartime, and right now immigration is under discussion. We're not at all on THAT level, but there IS precedent. As to the inevitable follow-up question of: what happens then the next time someone subverts or overrules that policy, I don't have an answer. I'm sorry. But one day we may very well have to do this again. If history teaches us anything, it's that there is no final solution in matters involving human interactions. Erik Pflueger [[Image:Galactic_Republic.JPG|20px]] 02:21, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Comments

 * Query: How the hell did I manage to become involved in this? As I recall, Havac proposed about why it should be a perma-ban and Culator is the one who carried it out. Where did I fit in into all of this? -- Redemption [[Image:Redemptionusersymbol.png|20px]] Talk 04:27, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
 * What exactly happened here? Kuralyov 04:41, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Let's see. Nine blockings five of which have been cleared or "canceled". That leaves us with four blockings. That's hardly enough to permaban a long term contributor who has made a great number of good contributions. Moreover, four of the blockings (three out of which ended up being "canceled") were performed by the same user, about whom at least one complaint has been made - admittedly, there's not much meat on that complaint, but still it's a complaint. Based on what we have now, I don't think we have much of a case against Jack Nebulax. (note: this user has no personal ties with Nebulax or the other user mentioned in this post; just stating the facts). KEJ 07:36, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I completely disagree. Jack's pattern of behaviour has concerned me for some time, as has his attitude. QuentinGeorge 07:44, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Fine, but more evidence is needed than a list of blocks half of which have been canceled. KEJ 07:52, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I actually just heard about this as well, and need a little bit more in depth explanation. Apparently Havac blocked Jack permanently for once again edit-warring on a topic (However, this time it was on one of his expanded articles (Voss Parck)). Havac's reasoning can be seen on Jack's talk page. Sikon and Culator apparently decided to overrule Havac's decision, as we have always been fairly lenient with Jack in the past. Havac objected, and now that brings us...here? Correct? Cull Tremayne 08:23, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
 * As I understand it Havac was editing while logged out (he's having some trouble logging in) and Jack got into an edit war with him. Culator blocked Jack for a day but removed the block as long as Jack agreed to stay away from Voss Parck. Jack made his own version of the article on a user subpage (and possibly did something else) which caused Havac to request that Culator give Jack a permanent ban, which he did. Jack came on IRC yesterday and asked that it be shortened to a day. I agreed that it was a little harsh as did WhiteBoy and Sikon, who removed it entirely. Culator later reinstated the ban but after much discussion on IRC agreed to reduce it to a week provided he can make the next one permanent should Jack get into another edit war. Green Tentacle (Talk) 09:12, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Nebulax's days of glory under the sun are long gone. Around early 2006, I though that he was a model Wookieepedian but that soon changed over the course of the year due to his attitude towards other users particularly "thinking that only his way is right". I lost much respect for Nebulax as a result and though we have given him many chances "to change to a new leaf", he has not changed on bit. Most of his edits are dedicated to patrolling the Recent Changes and that causes confrontation with other users. I am aware that Jack Nebulax was once voted Wookieepedian of the Month because of his amount of edits. But now his time is over. I know that this will sound cruel but Darth Culator should have been allowed to ban him infinitely because there's a very good chance he'll get into another edit war. So why not save him from any further trouble by preventing him from using Wookieepdia. I am not slandering him, I am stating the plain truth about him from my perspective. I have made mistakes here particularly at Forum:Sensitive issues on user pages but unlike him, I learn from them and never do it again. MyNz 10:05, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree with MyNz. At one point, after his third or fourth adminship, he started to behave, but has since reverted back to his old ways. He seems to consider himself above the rules, and like MyNz said, he constantly reverts things, often causing confrontation. Jack just thinks the rules do not apply to him. Having said that, I think a permanent block would be too harsh. I say, block him for about two weeks, but make this his last chance. If he messes up one more time, ban him for good. I'm very sorry to say that, but I feel it's what's best. Chack Jadson 13:21, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
 * How are Jack's contribs nowadays? I hardly see him around anymore. Maybe he left the site already. Anyway, if his track record is only half what it used to be, I can't say it would be cost-effective for Wookieepedia to permaban him over transgressions like those listed. He is being overprotective of pages, which can be said for many users here, even respected Admins. He is beeing somewhat rude, but Redemption knocks him right out in that department. Overall, getting into conflicts in cases where there is cause for reasonable doubt over what should be included in an article, and getting engaged in 3RR's, which requires two people after all, doesn't seem to me to be enough to make it cost-effective to permaban him. In my experience, the only harm he does is prevent edits where the sources are questionable or vague, which in light of the new sourcing policy is an asset to the site rather than a flaw. As for being disruptive, I think someone like him has earned the privilege of getting temp banned a few more times before the equation goes up enough for a permaban. DarthMRN 13:59, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Jack's been a long and loyal member of Wookieepedia, to be sure. However, most of his blocks have been for 3RRs, but some also for personal attacks. It seems to me that he becomes involved in edit wars and the like too much, but not enough IMHO to merit a permaban. I recommend a "scale of escalation" on restrictive measures. 1 day blocks usually get the point across, but repeat offenders should move up the scale- i.e. a week, a month, a year, infinitely, or however. This goes for anyone who has been blocked repeatedly- if you've had three one-day blocks for 3RR and you break it again, I will give you a three-day or week long block, fyi.

While I've worked well with Jack in the past, he has demonstrated a bit of paranoia, disrespect towards others, lack of good faith, and overprotectiveness of articles- both on the Wookiee and in e-mails-and he can't get a whole lot of special treatment just because of his insanely high edit count. That's not fair. That being said, Jack's been a helpful part of the community, a dedicated RC patroller, a staunch defender from vandalism and fanon. I've seen him help new members out when they're first starting, and he's quite knowledgeable about the Star Wars universe. I have no desire to see him go or be banned from the Wookiee at all, but rules have to be enforced. We're all equal here- from a well-respected user like Kuralyov who has been here for a long time and has thousands of contribs to new users who signed up this month, and no one is higher than the community and its policies. Atarumaster88  ( Talk page ) 14:14, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Two other things: Jack can't currently defend himself, due to a block. Also, I think this was a good idea, Sikon. Sometimes, this sort of action is needed, and I'd like to see us institute something like the arbitration committee to handle issues of this sort. Atarumaster88  [[Image:Jedi_Order.jpg|20px]] ( Talk page ) 14:16, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Arbitration is part of an admin's job description. Setting up a special committee for it, although sound as it may be, would only draw the same criticisms from the community the Inq did. Anyway, I can't really add anymore than what's already been said, but I echo the sentiment that we shouldn't give Jack special treatment because of his high edit count. People seem to place a lot of emphasis on edit counts around here, and they shouldn't. You have to admit, if he was lower on the edit count list, he would have permabanned a long time ago.  StarNeptune Talk to me! 14:59, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I also want to point out that a large number of his edits, at least recently, are extremely minor things, like adding in an extra space between categories and the Sources section, or putting in a link. And most of these are in articles that someone has just edited. A number of times, I have also seen him make an 'edit' that was just him saving the page as it already was. He has a tendency to always want to get the last word/edit in. I know this may sound hypocritical or catty coming from me, but the bottom line is that while he has a high edit count, a good number of those edits are really extremely minor and add nothing to the article. This may also sound hypocritical coming from me, but I definitely think that we should have acted on Jack a long time ago. Kuralyov 15:25, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I completely agree with Kuralyov and StarNeptune. Most of Jack's edits are very minor, such as capitalizing a letter in a template. And it does seem like he always wants to have the last word/latest edit. I think we should give him a two week block, then give him one more chance. If he seriously messes up once more, permablock him. Chack Jadson 16:31, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I think the whole point of this controversy was that we had already given him enough chances to change his tune. So far...no changes that I can see. Can't teach an old dog new tricks I guess. Or a stubborn one at that. -- Redemption [[Image:Redemptionusersymbol.png|20px]] Talk 16:34, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Something good is being brought up here: Should amount of contributions affect how much leeway you are given. I see some admins thinking otherwise, but personally I agree with that position. If we were a community first and a knowledge repository second, your level of contribution shouldn't give you extra points on the mistak-o-meter. But we aren't! We are an encyclopedia (or whatever) first, with the community coming second. Our primary interest is to compile as much as we can on SW. If we can do so with a happy comunity, that is great, but if one must be sacrificed over the other, is there a question of which would come out on top? Therefore I again bring up the point of cost-effectivness. Considering what we are, and what our purpose is, is it to our gain or to our loss to permaban someone like Jack? I'd say it is our loss. Considering how we are not a community first, I think it more than fair that number of good edits should affect how much leeway we are willing to give a disruptive, rules-violating user. It may cause some grief, and may not be morally desirable, but once the sabers are tucked in, and the dust has cleared, Wookieepedia will be stronger than it would otherwise have been. And since I see that as the foremost goal of this site and community, I feel good edits and WotM's should, not just in practice, but in theory as well, be grounds for leeway. It is not like Jack is a vandal or "wastes" Wookieepedia space. DarthMRN 16:44, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Though, if Kura is right, and Jack's days of contribution are over, we can still permaban him to prevent further disruption, and still enjoy the fruit of his past labours. But it is a gamble. Who knows if he won't someday return to his past glory, and we miss it because he has been blocked? Frankly, when viewed like that, banning him seems like a poor bet. DarthMRN 16:44, 20 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I think he should dealt with the same whether very active or not. It looks like he's been effectively blocked for a few days at the most so far.  I agree with the earlier comment about progressive blocks and don't shorten them.  Go to 2 weeks, 1 month, & 2 months before perma-blocking, imo. -Fnlayson 17:04, 20 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree with DarthMRN: While I'd be the first to want us to be a happy community, and have done what I can to make it so by reaching out to those who were formerly opponents - The4dotellipses is the most recent example, but Jack Nebulax was the very first example of it - I agree that our first priority is to assemble all information about Star Wars; all other considerations come a distant second. And in the rush to add info, who knows how many mistakes can be made, grammar, format, or other? Jack is the one we can count on to clean up after us, and his loss only makes our task harder, not easier. Some of you think Jack is just a bottom-feeder, but you know what? Bottom-feeders are a neccesary component of an ecosphere: they clean up what others leave behind. If that's what Jack does, so be it; it's a vital part of what we do and it's something he need never feel any shame for. And we'd suffer a great loss if we allowed our emotions to drive us to rash acts that, in the end, will only harm us.
 * And am I defending him just because he defended me and my Palpatine article? Yes, I'll be quite honest about how I stand by those who stand by me. But as I've written above, that's not the ONLY reason I'm here. There are practical considerations here, and Jack serves a practical use, one that I don't see anyone else clamoring to fill. Others will surely do clean-up, but who would do so with the determination and time investment that he does? Jack is a singular asset, and removing him permanently out of anger would only be cutting our nose to spite our face.
 * So that's my call on Jack. But there's an underlying issue here. If if I may make a suggestion: we're at this impasse because no policy was in place before the issue raised its head. There is simply no precedent for dealing with large-scale 3RR complaints. There was a lot of tolerance, then just hour-long or day-long bans, and after years of it, suddenly someone wants a perma-ban which is only shortened to a week-ban at literally the last minute. That's inconsistent, and those who dislike how Jack operates could claim that there is no incentive to change one's behavior in that lack of an organized method. What we're dealing with now is the consequences of not having a proper disciplinary system already in place.
 * So what do we do instead? I say call the week-band the extent of it, then clean Jack's slate. Then, we start over with a new and firm system. The first 3RR gets a VERY firm warning that includes a list of punishments for further violations as I am now outlining, the second an hour-ban, the third a day-ban, the fourth a week-ban, the fifth a month-ban, the sixth a year-ban or perma-ban as you choose. Maybe perma-ban can be for the seventh violation, I dont know. But the hoped-for result is that violators will realize that they have something to lose by not changing their behavior, and if they keep digging their heels in, it only gets worse. If violators have a problem with whatever underlying editing issue caused the 3RR violation, they should have a regulatory body they can appeal to, maybe the Inquisitors, maybe something else, like this board. After deliberations, the body would make a final and binding decision, and to violate after that decision is made could get a serious ban penalty. Newcomers who reverse something can be informed of the decision and informed it is binding.
 * Does any of this sound good? Please feel free to comment on it right here; I'd love to hear critiques or alternate ideas. Erik Pflueger [[Image:Galactic_Republic.JPG|20px]] 17:12, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

The only edits I've seen him make are edits that a bot can do. Putting an extra space between lines. Adding a period. Etc, etc... '''Nebulax is fast. If there's vandalism going on at the same time he's on, he'll revert it in less than a minute.''' That's why we have admins. '''Nebulax is smart. Nebulax knows a lot about Star Wars, and always answers questions as soon as someone puts them on a talk page.''' Yet he lacks common sense. Without common sense, whats the point of being knowledgeable in a certain field if you can't properly interpret it and it's opposition like a mature adult? '''If you block him, I know I will leave Wookieepedia forever. I know you don't care about me leaving, but once you block Jack, you will see Wookieepedia slowly collapse.''' Don't let the door hit you on your way out. Nobody is irreplaceable. The guy "left" for a month and we were doing quite well without him. -- Redemption  Talk 00:03, 21 June 2007 (UTC) Red, you probabaly don't know this, or may not remember it if you do, but last month someone on the IRC laughed at the notion that you should be elected Wookieepedian of the Month considering personality problems other people had with you (I was not and am not now one of those people). I told him in all frankness that if personality were the sole arbiter, that's a pretty poor barometer for measuring someone's worth. What about what they do? And I argued to this man that you had done a great deal of hard work for the 'Pedia, and that's why you earned and deserved that nomination. I believed that then. I believe it now. And I apply it across the board, to Jack as well as yourself. One of your principal problems with him, if I'm reading you correctly (and in fairness to you, I may not be), is his behavior, his attitude. To you he's both a whiner and a jerk. Maybe so, maybe not, depending on the person he's interacting with at the time. I'll certainly accept that he's not treated you as you would wish, or else why would you take issue? But by saying "no one is replacable," you're assuming that someone else can be found to do everything he does that has a nicer disposition. And it's never wise to act in an irrevocable way on assumptions alone.
 * I am one who thinks a permaban in this instance is not warranted. He does spend most of his time nowadays over at the SW Fanon Wiki anyway. However, I think going from several 1 day blocks from 3RR violations to permaban is over the top. I agree with whoever it was (I think DarthMRN) who said there should be a scale. A select number of 1 days bans > 1 week > 2 weeks > 1 month > 6 months > 1 year > permaban. Is Jack rude? Oftentimes, yes. There are others who are as bad, if not worse. Is he stubborn to a fault? Yes. We all can be on some issues. Is he to the point of warranting a permaban? No. I'd say he's maybe at the 6 month level, no more. - JMAS 17:29, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I hope I am not the only one when I say that permanently banning Jack Nebulax will be a very bad decision. Yes, Nebulax has been blocked several times. And yes, he has made his share of mistakes. But from what I see here, you people only look at the negatives. I guess I'll be the first to start looking at the positives: Nebulax is a great writer. He has made a lot of contributions with content, and has started some articles as well. Nebulax is fast. If there's vandalism going on at the same time he's on, he'll revert it in less than a minute. Nebulax is smart. Nebulax knows a lot about Star Wars, and always answers questions as soon as someone puts them on a talk page. Yes, he has made his share of 3RRs and personal attacks, but compared to the number of personal attacks he has recieved, that's nothing. If you block him, I know I will leave Wookieepedia forever. I know you don't care about me leaving, but once you block Jack, you will see Wookieepedia slowly collapse.--'Darthtyler (talk) (HSM RKY) 23:56, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Nebulax is a great writer. He has made a lot of contributions with content, and has started some articles as well.
 * Why must everyone look at the negative side? No, he does not only do things that bots can do. I said hes created articles. Can I bot do that? And sometimes, admins are not on. He does have common sense. And nobody is replacable. We are all different in our own way.--'Darthtyler (talk) (HSM RKY) 00:12, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Very off subject, but, technically, bots can create articles, using editarticle.py  Pinky  Talk 00:14, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
 * So now you're against me Pinky? And yes, bots can create articles, but bots can't really put content, as bots don't have these things called brains.--'Darthtyler (talk) (HSM RKY) 00:15, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
 * What articles has he created? That weren't simply a sentence or two long with a stub tag attached to it? What articles has he brought to FA status? He has ZERO common sense. Remember that flounce he pulled awhile back? Someone with some common sense would know that kind of behavior is very inappropriate. And don't even think about throwing that garbage of "we are all unique." Bullshit. The only thing about Jack that is irreplaceable is his whiny, self-centered attitude...and even that can be argued. -- Redemption [[Image:Redemptionusersymbol.png|20px]] Talk 00:18, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Lots to reply to here. :)
 * I like this thread that you have started Sikon, and think it's a good way to resolve the issue. I do not think there needs to be another committee setup to handle this stuff, tho.  I think if it comes to that, then the admins would act as that committee.
 * I agree with the ones who have pointed out that there is a hole in our policies. Our policies are generally good and we have most of it there already.  As I've been thinking about it I was thinking something along the lines of the progressive idea that others have suggested, which would be very similar to what we already have in place with the blocking policy.  But that should be discussed in a separate CT, not here.
 * The number and quality of edits does not put someone above the policies that the community has established. By contributing to Wookieepedia, you inherently agree to abide by those policies, which are put in place to maintain organization and order on the site.
 * And I dunno about anyone else, but ultimatums strike a very sour chord with me. WhiteBoy 00:53, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Please do not construe this to mean I'm making light of your concerns, my friend; I'm really not. The very fact that you HAVE a problem means it matters to you and needs to be addressed seriously. Your problems matter as much as anyone's, and your concerns about Jack's weaknesses need to be considered as much as his strengths do. So do Havac's, Sikon's, Culator's et al. Your problems matter. I'm just not sure that a perma-ban is the way to solve them. That's all. Erik Pflueger  01:06, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I'd also like to add a general thought: if we suddenly design policy on the fly just to get rid of somebody we don't like, how is that just? Surely it must be better to firmly establish a policy, and THEN give said individual the chance to hang himself on it, knowing what he's in for. A major part of the problem of having no set policy and system of punishment in place is that people do 3RR violations not knowing what to expect in reprisal. What makes someone worth sentencing is having a policy of law and punishment in place, and the person violates the law anyway. That's what makes punishments moral and legal. Am I wrong there? Erik Pflueger [[Image:Galactic_Republic.JPG|20px]] 01:13, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I know what you are trying to say. That Jack and I are one in the same. That we have more similarities then differences. Blah, blah, blah. But there is one key difference that is why we are here for him and not I. I simply don't give a damn. Hell, I know that I don't deserve that WOTM position. And truth is, I don't want it. For me, it's just entertaining to see the people who haven't gotten to the age to brush words (words that are online and have no voice or real value to them) off them. I do what supposed to and that's it. I don't whine to administrators when another user and I have a disagreement (okay, usually I'm the one at fault but at least I can admit that). As for him being a whiner and a jerk...much more so whining. He fights then curls up in a corner and whines about it.

And I know we can find someone else can do what he does: a bot. -- Redemption  Talk 01:18, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Just because a registered user corrects punctuation and everything else a bot can do doesn't mean block them. You are going way to harsh on him. He is here to help. And he is not self-centered.--'Darthtyler (talk) (HSM RKY) 01:24, 21 June 2007 (UTC) So, yeah, there're my two cents. For what they're worth. --Trip 01:56, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
 * That's not the point. The point of blocking him is for edit-warring and constantly breaking the 3RR. The fact that all he does is correct punctuation is just a matter to end the rumor that he is a useful contributor. And you are absolutely right. He isn't here to be self-centered. Then...why is he so self-centered? This personalty quip is clearly causing a massive disturbance here...-- Redemption [[Image:Redemptionusersymbol.png|20px]] Talk 01:30, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
 * No, Red, I'm not trying to say you're one and the same. I'm just saying I apply the same principle to you both: ability and effort matters more than personality to me. And I'm sorry, man, but with all respect, if you didn't care would you be here arguing for his dismissal? Something about this must matter to you. And that's fine if it does. But to chuck him over it? In general, as far as words not having any value, I've always believed that words DO mean things, and I try to speak accordingly. And the fact that you're humble and self-effacing is commendable. It speaks well of your character. But you have character flaws too, and everyone does. My point is that your WORK is what matters here, not your character. It should be that way with everyone here. And I do believe he does important work, above and beyond mere bot-work. And if it were otherwise, so what? Someone needs to do that work, and as I said above, there's nothing in it that's beneath any other kind of work here. I won't exaggerate things beyond credibility by saying the 'Pedia can't do without him, but why should it have to do so? Just because of whiner-ness? Not enough to me. Erik Pflueger [[Image:Galactic_Republic.JPG|20px]] 01:33, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I have next to no edits and spend very little time here, but I figured I'd offer my opinion as a kinda-sorta outsider: Nebulax doesn't make contributing a very pleasant experience. Now, I've only run abreast of him once, when removing fanon speculation from the Imperial Sentinel article-- so, be warned, I'm not a terribly informed commenter. It was a cut-and-dried case: no sources whatsoever supporting the "two sentinels were Luke clones" theory that had been in there previously, and I had not only personally checked all the relevant sources but also opened a thread in [TFN's] Lit forum in order to be absolutely sure that I wasn't missing something. Nebulax reverted without any explanation with a warning of "Don't Remove It Again." I took it to the talk page, figured the issue was resolved, and came back almost six months later... to find that Nebulax had put back in the fanon speculation bit again. So, since the issue had previously been resolved-- there was no source at all-- I removed the speculation bit. Only to have Nebulax almost immediately revert. It finally went back to the talk page, where he insisted that we come up with a compromise. Which is silly, since the bit he wanted included was, y'know... complete speculation. Anyway, Culator resolved the matter by protecting the page, but the point of this long rambling (and mostly inane) story is: at least for this casual contributor, Nebulax's attitude doesn't really encourage taking the time to correct or change even minor, inane, and obviously incorrect things, since doing so could involve fighting a lengthy battle as well. And, apparently, rechecking the article repeatedly to ensure the fix wasn't snuck back out.
 * Whoa! We have a policy saying four bans and you are gone? I though it was a matter of admin desicion. I'm a sucker for policy, so in that case I change my vote to kick Nebulax with immediate effect and if his userpage is any indication, Redemption too! Policy is there to be followed, and both knew the consequences. However, I agree with Sikon, and would like to see a motion to make it next to impossible to permaban longtimers. But until that has become policy, both Nebulax, Redemption, and Yoda knows who else, are in violation and should be kicked with extreme prejudice. DarthMRN 02:07, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
 * In other words, you're making a decision not taking into account the situation, but instead blindly following a policy. - Sikon 02:57, 21 June 2007 (UTC)