Talk:Revan/Legends

Revan's canon face
Right the action figure has been realesed and the hood is removable, and shows revan to be bald and white, so does this establish a canon face I wonder well here are two images to look at.--\\Captain KAJ// 10:04, 16 September 2007 (UTC)


 * That doesn't mean anything, though. &mdash;Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Imperial Emblem.png|20px]] 14:07, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Are we sure? I am not completely sure about the canon status of the action figures. I remember Finis Valorum's figure holding a scepter with the Supreme Chancellor emblem. The scepter had not been seen in the movie, but the seal was. Curtis Saxton mentioned it in his Tech Comments, so I guess he considers the scepter to be canon. Hmmm... --Skippy Farlstendoiro 14:18, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Regardless, as of now, Revan has no canonical face. &mdash;Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Imperial Emblem.png|20px]] 14:20, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Being that this is Sith Lord Revan, all it establishes is that Revan had light skin being that there is a year difference and for all we know his hair could have grown back. -- Redemption [[Image:Redemptionusersymbol.png|20px]] Talk 14:48, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I seem to recall an off comment made in the Kotor Comics about like "unless we start shaving our heads and talking about the darkside" or something to that effect may be in fact the canon representation of Sith Revan. Note that all the other male Sith Lords of this era were also bald: Malak, Bandon, Nihilus (maybe), and Sion. We can be sure to some degree that Revan, as a Sith Lord, was bald, but the face, we just dont know. Darth Byss 17:36, 16 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Where did the second image come from? It wasnt in the game was it? 67.72.98.118 20:38, 16 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Its from the dark side ending of the game, also how long was there between his capture by the council and serving on the endarspire, because I dont think its long enough for a full head of hair to regrow, at the very least it establishes him to be canocialy white and canocialy bald during his time as sith lord, seeing as there is only one white bald face in the game it fairly certain to be canon.--\\Captain KAJ// 20:50, 16 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Just wanted to apologize - I edited the page to "Unknown" before I had the time to check that it wasn't simple fanon. I've altered it back now.--\\Jerroc Sinn// 17:46, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
 * No, that face is not "fairly certain to be canon". As of now, he had no canon face. In addition, we cannot say his hair color was "Bald", as everyone has hair at one point in their life. The only thing regarding Revan that was made known by the figure is that he was white. For all we know, Hasbro didn't put hair on the figure because he has yet to receive a canon face. &mdash;Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Imperial Emblem.png|20px]] 21:45, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Then why does Malak and Bandon have their hair color as bald, Hasbro intention's are unknown but the action figure is official and establishes an aspect of revans character that was previously unknown.--\\Captain KAJ// 22:01, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
 * The only thing it establishes is that at some point in Revan's time as a Dark Lord, he was bald. &mdash;Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Imperial Emblem.png|20px]] 23:56, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

I would like to say that since it's a model, they likly just didn't detail any of his flesh in order to spend less time making it. Destroyer Droid 20:05, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Maybe, but if that were true they wouldnt have made the hood removable at all. The facts are that the action figure establishes Revan to be canonical white and canonical bald, there was not enough time between his capture by the council and him serving aboard the endar spire for a full head of hair to regrow (Vader's didnt regrow at all remember).--\\Captain KAJ// 08:26, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
 * My humble opinion about this: The figure will establish the canon face for Revan, when the figure is released (Prototypes are not canon, same way as Ramón Bach's drafts for Tomcat are not canon but the final release in the published comic is). Currently we know that Revan canonically had no hair at some point when he was a Dark Lord. This does not mean that jedi Revan had no hair. Conjecture: Revan was not bald, but he simply shaved his head periodically; once he awoke as a jedi, his hair had began to grow again. Thus, we still don't know that. By the way, Hasbro's 1999 Nute Gunray figure suggested that his hairpiece covered the top of his head, while the movie shows that it does not - Thus, the canonicity of that figure is contradicted by a higher-level source. Let's be careful with this subject.--Skippy Farlstendoiro 09:30, 18 September 2007 (UTC)


 * untill a canon source comes out and says that a certain face is canon then he won't have a canon face so just deal with it and move on. there are more important things than what he looks like under his mask -- Dark Lord Xander  ( Embrace The Dark Side! )[[Image:MandalorianSymbol.jpg|20px]] 09:39, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
 * KAJ: Revan has no established canon face yet. In fact, since that figure is apparently a prototype, we can't even say that Revan was bald (or, to be more precise, had a shaved head). And FYI, Vader's hair didn't grow back because his entire body was mutilated, which would have prevented any hair from growing back. Skippy: Is the mask going to be removable? I don't remember hearing about that. &mdash;Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Imperial Emblem.png|20px]] 11:04, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Sorry I didnt know it was a prototype, I thought it was the finished product, secondly Skippy if the figure does have a certain face it wont recieve any contradiction from the game becasuse revans face is selected by the player, thirdly Xander fans have been debating on revans true apprerence for nearly four years I think that establashing a canon face is fairly important.--\\Captain KAJ// 16:22, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Considering that the image is coming from a fan site and from their "personal" galleries, this is without a doubt, the finished product. The item was just released this month I believe so... -- Redemption [[Image:Redemptionusersymbol.png|20px]] Talk 16:33, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I thought the "removable mask" was a confirmed feature of the action figure, but I cannot find any absolute reference to it. Maybe I simply got confused and mistook that feature with the (confirmed) "removable hood". We can simply wait to see the final product and confirm if it is. --Skippy Farlstendoiro 15:33, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Hmm, I've often thought Darth Manchu looked the most "I used to be a head of state and top military leader"ish. Giving Revan a removable hood was a horrid idea, but it beckons back to this NPC model image of the NPC Revan's hood removed showing a weird, bald head, regardless of the face picked. However, during the Revelation in-game sequence, the nonbald Revans show hair. So if this is just a prototype and they change the hood to nonremovable, we can call it off. If it's the final product, then we should probably cautiously proceed and maybe contact Leeland Chee for info on Revan's possible canon face/colour/hair or lack of. Lord Patrick 03:19, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
 * What the fuck are you talking about, there is no character called Darth Manchu.--\\Captain KAJ// 12:31, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Try and keep it civil, KAJ. --  AdmirableAckbar  [Talk] 12:35, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:1996finnishvidrelease.jpg
 * Well, I'd be satisfied if Malak was estabilished to be bald, 'cause I played him as the bald Asian guy with the goatee. He looked badass when he took the mask off. --Master Starkeiller 16:52, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I think you mean Revan. Malak is canonically bald (although, due to the fact he is almost certainly Alek due to his clothes, appearance, talk of painting and shaving his head and babbling about the dark side, apprentice to a hooded, unseen leader of a Jedi Revanchism and military commander, he wasn't always bald). And KAJ, the reason I called that particular Revan head Darth Manchu is because of the uncanny resemblance between that Revan and the literary villain Fu Manchu;

However, there is a more likely inspiration. George Lucas based Star Wars heavily upon the beloved Flash Gordon serials of his childhood, and the villain Ming the Merciless, who himself was probably based on Fu Manchu, looked like this; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Ming.gif

On a final, more modern note, if this Revan is confirmed as canonical, he will also resemble Sao Feng; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Sao_Feng_Pirate_China.jpg, Church of Satan founder Anton LaVey and Kane from Command and Conquer (who founded a religious cult and believed himself the saviour of humanity). So, there are a variety of possible inspirations. I just picked the most obvious and the oldest. Lord Patrick 03:19, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Funnily enough, the figure directly contradicts information from the game. Revan's mask was part of a *helmet*.
 * "Revan was known for wearing full helmet and cape", so sayeth Yuthura.


 * Basically, Hasbro didn't do their research when it came to sculpting the figure, which isn't exactly surprising. Really though, I don't think we're meant to read anything into the canonicity of "white and bald" just because his action figure is that way. I mean, his mask isn't even right if we go by the game, are we to assume that that's what it "really" looked like? Still, the Ming the Merciless head was one of my favourites... just not for light side games ;) (Ulicus 16:00, 2 October 2007 (UTC))
 * Seeing as both the suit, and the mask are wrong; we can't put much faith in Hasbro following canon. So, until another source says so, Revan was not bald at any point in his life.  Jasca Ducato Sith Council 18:11, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Oh yeah, Lord Patrick, I did mean Revan. All the baldness confused me... Well, I for one, am a big supporter of Darth Manchu, seeing how I'm emotionally connected to him. That bald guy with the goatee and epicanthal fold will always be Revan to me. I just need to remember what I had called him. I remember having named the Jedi Exile Domus Esterhazy, but Revan...?
 * And, concerning the discussion, seeing as how he's bald, if the figure has a removable mask, I see Darth Manchu becoming canonical... Toys are canonical when they show us something we haven't seen (like the back of an alien's head, a character's underwear, what some Jedi's boot looks like from behind etc), and if it shows Darth Manchu, mesa bein' mooie-mooie happy. Tis be bombad! --Master Starkeiller 22:15, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Well, actually we can only say that "Revan may or may not have been bald at any point of his life", due to the possibility of bald Revan being canon from the selectable heads. And it is strange. Revan, Malak, Bandon. If they were all bald, are we looking at some kind of freaky, heights out of order Mini-Me thing? Adding Nihilus and Sion to the mix just makes things even worse. Lord Patrick 05:59, 4 October 2007 (UTC) Lord Patrick 10:58, 4 October 2007 (UTC) "Also just to poin out firstly that the action figure is not inacurate as there are two versions of the suit, also the mask was not part of a helmet as seen if you do play as the bald asian guy, when he takes it off you can see the brow of his skull, and there is no other attachment there."
 * Well, clearly, having gone bald at an early age, Revan forced everyone who joined the Sith to shave off their hair out of vanity. (Ulicus 10:02, 4 October 2007 (UTC))
 * Or.. Revan decided to do "Heil Myself" and started a proto-Nazi cult billions of years before humans came to Earth. Anyhoo, can anyone who actually has the action figure confirm the authenticity (or lack of) of these images?
 * Well as Jack Nebulax has said above every human is born with hair, Revan had hair at some point in his life, however the action figure establishes that he was bald during his tenure as sith lord (which means we can add it to the infobox, as is the case with Malak). Also just to poin out firstly that the action figure is not inacurate as there are two versions of the suit, also the mask was not part of a helmet as seen if you do play as the bald asian guy, when he takes it off you can see the brow of his skull, and there is no other attachment there.--\\Captain KAJ// 09:45, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
 * All we know is that Revan is male. Until LucasArts decide to discuss the hair color, then we should label this action figure as a "Possible Revan appearence. Darthan the destroyer 20:34, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Dude, it's called "limited graphics". No Jedi in KotOR wore lightsabers on their belts - is this because they didn't wear them on their belts canonically, or because the graphics engine was limited? Dozens of people througout the galaxy looked *absolutely identical*. Is this becuase they actually looked identical, or because the graphics were limited? Nearly every human in the game was the same height. Is this because everyone actually WAS the same height, or because the graphics were limited? Text > Graphics. Revan wore a helmet and the mask was but the front portion of this. I have absolutely NO problem with the Revan action figure being listed as "Hasbro's interpretation of Revan", but to say that it is flat out 100% canon seems a bit silly when it's contradicting information directly from the game.(Ulicus 00:15, 6 October 2007 (UTC))
 * Any of the facial models from the character generation screen in the first game are possibly Revan, toys don't mean ANYTHING, because unlike the actual Revan, Revan's figure does not have a design on the figure's cape and unlike the actual Malak, Malak's figure has a full cape, the actual Malak has a full one. It's just a figure, and should not be taken as canon, otherwise, we should also say that Darth Vader has a pink lightsaber.--Jedi Kasra 22:07, 16 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I might disagree with Kasra. As far as I understand the canon in figures, the differences between the figures and other sources are canon. My understanding (remember, IMHO): Darth Vader might have two lightsabers (notice that he lost his hand a few times) or perhaps he could change the color of its blade from red to pink. Nute Gunray had two similar headpieces: one of them covered the top of his head (TPM figure) and the other one did not (as in the movie). Finis Valorum had a scepter with the Chancellor symbol, he simply did not use it in TPM. About Revan, he might have two different capes. Nevertheless, apparently the figure does not show Revan's face (only his bald/shaven head top). This debate has turned to something of a certain importance if defining the politics of Wookieepedia: What's the canon value of the action figures?
 * "every piece of published Star Wars fiction is a window into the 'real' Star Wars universe. Some windows are a bit foggier than others."' (Steve Sansweet & Chris Cerasi, Ask the Jedi Council'').
 * --Skippy Farlstendoiro 07:32, 17 October 2007 (UTC)


 * But we can't say, "Oh, Revan is either the bald Asian guy or the bald Black guy", just because some figure has him bald. Like I said before, any of the faces from the Character Generation screen are potentially Revan. However it is worth noting that, excluding the blond white guy, all of the white facial models appear in the game. The white guy with the red goatee appears on Tatooine in the bar with Helena Shan, if you play Mullet white guy, Jedi with the 5th white guy's face appeare, if you play as the 5th white guy, vice versa. And lastly the 2nd weird looking white guy appears as a member of the Jedi Council when Vandar re-establishes your character's rank of Jedi Knight. Just something to think about.--Jedi Kasra 19:09, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Not to mention some of Revan's faces are on the Peragus miners floating in the kolto tank. DAWUSS 03:02, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Star Wars: Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy. Jaden Korr's existence is canon; Korr's sex and species are unknown. Potentially, Korr can choose either the light or dark side ending of the game (and he could even not end the game). A further source, in this case The Dark Forces Saga, provides further information about some of the details: Sex and species still unknown, but the light side ending is now canon - The dark side ending never happened. To me, this is similar: A further source, in this case an action figure, might provide further information about Vader's lightsaber properties, or about which of the potentially valid options in a game really happened (Kyle Katarn chosing the light in JK:DF2; Korr chosing the light in JK:JA). I never said that Revan was the bald Asian guy or anything; I care little about Revan's true face. I simply think that any new information provided by an action figure is as valid as Pablo Hidalgo's published articles: IMHO, action figures are canon, specially if they provide new information.
 * I personally don't the action figure provides any information about a different character such as the guy with Helena Shan. This character will have his own canon face when a new source solves his discrepancy. Although the programming of the game is obviously related to the discrepancy, the continuity isn't.
 * Nevertheless, Kasra, I am probably not convincing enough to make you change your mind. I am personally convinced myself, and I will keep an eye on this talk page in the future. Always a pleasure,--Skippy Farlstendoiro 08:22, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

http://kotormods.t-k.ru/image/darth_revan_big.jpg No canon intended, just lazy research.--Sith Alchemy 101 10:46, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Or the top and back of the could helmet happen to be European Skin Tone. Haha. Darth Zaktius 01:40, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I would like to point out that the Bald Black Male face also had a white skin tone when on the Dark Side, so it could be him too. And, I don't believe we should be taking this action figure too seriously...I mean, they didn't even get the mask to look right and he has no markings on his cape...I don't believe that this really canonizes anything... Revan211 03:23, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I present to you Exhibit A-a reskinned Sith mask.
 * One could also use the action figure picture to make yet another argument for Revan being a Jar'Kai user, as there are 2 sabers in his hand, one lit one not. JediGeneral


 * Earlier in this discussion, it was mentioned that the action figures are not always directly canonical in appearance, which seems the render the entire subject a moot point, but, for the sake of argument, I shall register my opinions and hypotheses. Although the "shaved head" is a possiblity, any face could be the one, as the dark side indeed corrupts one's appearance, making one paler than in life, as seen with Darth Sidious, Darth Vader (after his mask has been removed, though his paleness is typically attributed to lack of exposure to light of any kind), Darth Sion (who is technically dead, and therefore bears the proper skin tone of a dead white male), and Darth Malak, to name a few.  Any of the faces could well be that of Darth Revan, and it is doubtful that a canon face will EVER be established.  The fact that the blond white male face does not appear on any NPC, however, could be of note.  It is quite possible that the designers chose to use every face on other characters except the one they may have later been planning to declare canon.  I merely wished to register my thoughts, and I probably stated the obvious far more than necessary, and if so, I deeply apologize.  And please forgive my lengthy posts, it simply the manner of writing to which I am accustomed.  Kriim Ianga 00:51, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Revan nearly died when Malak betrayed him. Even with Jedi healing, he'd take some time to recover from that kind of injury, not to mention his mind was severely damaged. He had the time to grow whatever color of hair the gamer decides. 70.59.196.213 09:22, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Non-Canon Stuff
I think that we should remove the non-canon stuff from the article, I mean, if it's non-canon, I don't know why we keep it here. Even if it's a possibility in the game, we should just keep what is canon. For example, does Carth really felt in love with Revan? No, he doesn't. But in the game it's an alternate possibility!! ---> Yes it is, but it's not canon, so it does not have any value. I think that it remove credibility to the article, and it should be remove. Even if it's an alternate possibility. 70.81.224.148 20:51, 23 September 2007 (UTC)A-D.

It is supposed to be there. Aybfreak 22:03, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
 * It's Behind the Scenes. If it's a possibility in the game, then that's where it goes. As long as it stays out of the main article body, then it's fine. -- Redemption [[Image:Redemptionusersymbol.png|20px]] Talk 22:50, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
 * It's actually completely out of universe because it purposely goes against the continuum that it's in and is meant to be set in a separate universe.--User:Wiilover Nintendo Wii 23:30, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Length of time as Dark Lord
The reference to Revan being Dark Lord for "two years" should be changed to "at least two years" or removed completely. We do not know when he laid claim to the title. For example, if it was when he discovered Malachor, then he was the Dark Lord in secret for at least a portion of the Mandalorian Wars. (Ulicus 15:12, 2 October 2007 (UTC))

I've never heard that he was a dark lord in secret. Please, do tell where you heard that fascinating statement. Darthan the destroyer 20:36, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Fair enough.


 * First, the point is that we cannot rule out his perhaps having been the Dark Lord in secret. We DO NOT KNOW when he assumed the mantle, therefore we cannot state with canonical certainty that he held the post for "2 years" (and it was 2 1/2 years anyway if we're talking about the time from the start of the JCW and Revan's capture).


 * Secondly, the games themselves infer that Revan was a Sith Lord for at least the latter stages of the Mandalorian Wars... and the KotOR Chronicles (which, to be fair, are riddled with errors) flat out tell us that he was a Sith Lord for the majority of them.


 * Evidence #1: Immediately after Malachor, the Sith teachings spread through the ranks of Revan's fleet. We're told this by Atton. Would this be possible if Revan only became the Dark Lord after the war? No. It would only be possible if it was something planned for a fair bit of time.


 * Evidence #2: Kreia tells us that the Mandalorian Wars were, in truth, a war of "conversion", acting as the foundation for Revan's army. Revan's SITH army. This wouldn't be true if Revan was not a Sith Lord for at least a fair portion of the war.


 * Evidence #3: We're told that Revan learned the location of Korriban from Malachor. We're also told that Revan embraced the Sith cause on Malachor. Since the Star Map on Dantooine had Korriban's location in it, this means Revan MUST have been to Malachor before he searched for the Star Maps. Since Dantooine was the *first* star map he found, Kashyyyk's map must have been found afterwards. KotOR 1 tells us that Revan last accessed Kashyyyk's Star Map "no less than five standard years" before 3956 BBY - that would be in 3961 BBY, a whole YEAR before the end of the Mandalorian Wars. The smart money is on the post-Malachor Revan being a Sith at this point. (Ulicus 00:30, 6 October 2007 (UTC))

Good call. I agree with you, now that you have a significant amount of proof. Darthan the destroyer 01:07, 8 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, Revan could have just been a Dark Jedi when he found the Star Maps the first time.--Jedi Kasra 13:26, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
 * So he went to Malachor, a bastion of Sith teachings, turned to the dark side and... didn't become a Sith? I can't rule it out I suppose, but it's rather unlikely don't you think? (Ulicus 20:19, 30 October 2007 (UTC))

Revan as an Author
I think we should add the fact that Revan was an author to his "Abilities" section. In Darth Bane: Path of Destruction, it says that Revan wrote a book called The Rakata and the Unknown World, and I think it also mentions that Revan wrote other books. Anyone else agree?--Jedi Kasra 06:39, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

TFU Miniature
Should we mention somewhere that he will have his own miniature in the "Force Unleashed" miniature set coming in November? --Sith Alchemy 101 15:15, 26 October 2007 (UTC) http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=starwars/article/FUpreview3 --Sith Alchemy 101 10:27, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Do you have a source for this information? Because I find it hard to believe that Revan would have a minature in a TFU set, especially considering he lived 4,000 years beforehand.  Jasca Ducato Sith Council 22:16, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
 * He's being made for the Sith faction.

Possible appearances?
I see that there is a list of 'possible' appearances among the appearances. I think it deserves some mentioning in the 'Behind the scenes' section that there are several occasions in the KOTOR comics which are suspected appearances of him. (Not to mention including those certain pictures with the 'suspicious' figures). As far as I remember there was a section for this purpose in this article or in one of the KOTOR comics' articles, but they all disappeared. Domlith 16:38, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Wookieepedia articles are not for fan speculation. --Imperialles 17:01, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
 * That is ok, I just tried to call attention to this dubious list (I know that this is no place of speculations, nevertheless, I am curious of the suspected scenes). Domlith 14:09, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
 * If this isn't for fan speculation, why is the 'possibility' of the source for his name still up? It can just as likely be suggested that it's 'possible' for it to come from the implied 'fact' that he (re)started a Revalution withen the Jedi order.  Just take out the 'lutio' and you've got his name.  (source: the new Kngts of The Old Republic comic line. "Mysterious cloaked figure is the leader of the Revanshist (revalutionist) Movement, whose self named apprentice is a red armoured Jedi Knight named (M)Alek)

There really could be room for speculation, so long as it's properly tagged. That way people will know what's what, until things are proven, then they can be edited out/into the main canon. --Draconic_Vamp 22:47, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Fact check
I think that we need to do a lot of fact checking on this article (again). Lets start with this chunk of text: Though the exact details of what transpired in that ancient Sith bastion would remain unknown, the most commonly accepted theory was that Revan discovered the continued existence of the "True Sith", long thought vanished, and the threat that they still presented to the galaxy. Coming to the conclusion that the Republic, as it stood, was ill-equipped to defend the galaxy from such a potent enemy, he decided that a new government would need to rise in its place; an empire founded upon the Sith teachings. He would attempt to save the galaxy through conquest. In that moment, Revan fully abandoned the teachings of the Jedi, taking the title of Dark Lord of the Sith and adding Darth to his name.

It may have been during his studies on Malachor V that Revan uncovered historical traces of the Star Forge. A relic of the Infinite Empire of the Rakata, it was an instrument of the dark side capable of producing vast fleets by harnessing the power of the stars. Though it had the dangerous potential to consume those who drew upon it too heavily, Revan soon concluded that he had discovered the means by which he would rapidly conquer the Republic and prepare it for the coming attack of the ancient Sith. I don't think that we should be stating much of this information as fact. I would like to see much of it either verified or removed. I have been working on phasing this sort of speculative fluff out of the other KotOR articles and I think it needs to be removed here also. Let's try to migrate this sort of thing towards the 'Behind the scenes' section and reserve the main article for concrete facts. A lot of this is merely Kreia's opinion about Revan's actions, and according to her own dialogue, she was not always in a position to know what Revan was thinking.

For the record, here is a partial list of things we don't know about Revan. We don't know for certain: Since we don't know any of this stuff, we should be more careful about what we write about such subjects.– 01:04, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
 * 1) exactly when he fell to the dark side
 * 2) when he embraced Sith teachings
 * 3) when he became the Dark Lord of the Sith
 * 4) when he first heard of the Star Forge
 * 5) when Revan and Malak found the first Star Map on Dantooine
 * 6) exactly why Revan fell to the dark side
 * 7) whether "Revan" is even the character's name or merely an alias


 * Absolutely. Unfortunately, I don't have boatloads of free time, so i might not be able to help much beyond small edits. Admiral Carth Onasi 15:34, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree that BtS is a better place for the stuff you've highlighted - though neither paragraph really states anything as fact. The first one outright admits that the exact details are unknown and that what follows is merely "the most commonly accepted theory", whilst the other uses the weasel-like: "It may have been".


 * As for your list:


 * exactly when he fell to the dark side


 * Hmmmm. The Chronicles state (or at least heavily, heavily imply) that Revan embraced/turned to the dark side on his first visit to Malachor. So whether this is true or not depends on whether we can count the Chronicles as proper canon sources or not.


 * when he embraced Sith teachings


 * See the above


 * when he became the Dark Lord of the Sith


 * See above the above


 * when he first heard of the Star Forge


 * True


 * when Revan and Malak found the first Star Map on Dantooine


 * True, but we can say that it must have been after Revan's discovery of Korriban's location on Malachor V and before the activation of the Kashyyyk starmap in 3961 BBY. So some time between 3963 and 3961. So actually (and annoyingly, in terms of splitting the article into sections) the "Search for the Star Forge" stuff begins during the Mandalorian Wars.


 * exactly why Revan fell to the dark side


 * True.


 * whether "Revan" is even the character's name or merely an alias


 * True




 * Anyway, unless you're already on it, I'll have a look at how best to prune/remove the non-confirmed stuff from the posted text sometime tommorrow. Would simply stating the extent of Kreia's involvement be enough for the first? Something along the lines of: "Though the truth of what transpired in that ancient Sith bastion remains unknown, Kreia would later suggest..."


 * Flat out removing it seems to hurt the article's flow, though that might just be me.


 * (Ulicus 23:40, 2 November 2007 (UTC))

As far as my point about not knowing exactly when Revan fell to the dark side, I agree that we can pretty much definitively state that Revan fell to the dark side by the year 3,963 BBY when he visited Malachor; however, we do not know for sure if he had fallen before that point in time. Master Vrook seemed to be convinced that he was a dark sider before the war.
 * As always, you make good points, Ulicus. Adding the phrase "Kreia would later suggest" would be a good starting point. Some of this has to be said, I just think that we need to be more careful about how it is written.

Anyway, her are the specific sections that I think need some tender loving care:

"the most commonly accepted theory was that Revan discovered the continued existence of the 'True Sith', long thought vanished, and the threat that they still presented to the galaxy. Coming to the conclusion that the Republic, as it stood, was ill-equipped to defend the galaxy from such a potent enemy, he decided that a new government would need to rise in its place; an empire founded upon the Sith teachings. He would attempt to save the galaxy through conquest. In that moment, Revan fully abandoned the teachings of the Jedi, taking the title of Dark Lord of the Sith and adding Darth to his name."

The most commonly accepted theory
 * What does that mean? POV much?

'''Revan discovered the continued existence of the "True Sith", long thought vanished, and the threat that they still presented to the galaxy. Coming to the conclusion that the Republic, as it stood, was ill-equipped to defend the galaxy from such a potent enemy, he decided that a new government would need to rise in its place...''' At one point, Kreia states: "perhaps Revan never fell. The difference between a fall and a sacrifice is sometimes difficult, but I feel that Revan understood that difference, more than anyone knew. The galaxy would have fallen if Revan had not gone to war. Perhaps he became the dark lord out of necessity, to prevent a greater evil." The problem is that we don't know what she meant by the words "the galaxy would have fallen". Is she talking about the Mandalorians? The Sith? The Sith through the Mandalorians? It would be great if we could find some quotes to back this up&hellip;
 * I haven't played KotOR:TSL for a while. I know that some of this info comes from Kreia's dialogue, but I am not sure how clear she was about it all. Worse, I am not at all certain that she was in a position to know any of this.

In that moment, Revan fully abandoned the teachings of the Jedi, taking the title of Dark Lord of the Sith and adding Darth to his name.
 * K, we get into a lot of trouble here. "In that moment, Revan fully abandoned the teachings of the Jedi", is a dubious passage. I don't think that is something we can prove.
 * We don't know when Revan first became Dark Lord of the Sith.
 * Since we don't know that "Revan" is Revan's name, we should avoid saying that he added "Darth to his name"

"It may have been during his studies on Malachor V that Revan uncovered historical traces of the Star Forge. A relic of the Infinite Empire of the Rakata, it was an instrument of the dark side capable of producing vast fleets by harnessing the power of the stars. Though it had the dangerous potential to consume those who drew upon it too heavily, Revan soon concluded that he had discovered the means by which he would rapidly conquer the Republic and prepare it for the coming attack of the ancient Sith."

It may have been during his studies on Malachor V that Revan uncovered historical traces of the Star Forge.
 * K, this one is at least partially my fault. I made the error of adding something similar to the old version of the Jedi Civil War article. Unfortunately, it is pure speculation at this point.

Revan soon concluded that he had discovered the means by which he would rapidly conquer the Republic and prepare it for the coming attack of the ancient Sith. – 05:00, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't think we can for sure that there is a "coming attack of the ancient Sith"


 * Alright, I re-read this quote here:

"After Malachor, after the Mandalorian Wars, that's when the Sith teachings started spreading throught the ranks. We knew where our loyalties lay - to the Jedi who came to help us, no the ones who sat back on Dantooine and Coruscant, watching us die." -Atton Rand

So I came to the conclusion that we should re-write the part in Revan's article that says that the Sith teachings were being spread during the Mandalorian Wars. and why I think he was not Sith, at least until after he first found the Star Forge, remember; in the first game, even if your character turns to the Dark Side and you side the Sith during most of your adventure, you are not truly Sith until you defeat Malak.--Zhran 19:43, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Looks like I'm not going to get round to doing anything here soon. Uni calls again. Sorry Sentry. Of course, I've just come straight to the discussion page, so maybe the stuff has already been pruned....


 * And, Zhran, in regards to Revan being a Sith only after he finds the Star Forge I'm afraid that you're almost certainly wrong. I've responded to similar stuff many times before. Revan uncovered Sith teachings at least two years-or-so before he discovered the exact location of the Star Forge, and every indication from every source is that he embraced those teachings.


 * I don't see how "dark side game Revan" has any bearing on the discussion, really. He'd have no right to call himself a Sith until after the Korriban Academy anyway. *Shrug*(Ulicus 18:41, 9 November 2007 (UTC))


 * But, we don't know for sure if Revan immediately accepted those teachings, even you, Ulicus, are not sure on whether we can count on the Chronicles as a reliable source or not. I really don't.--Jedi Kasra 20:08, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Unless contradicted in game, we pretty much have to accept the Chronicles. Chee has said that they're a legitimate source. Well, actually, someone told me that Leland said they were a legimate source and I took them at their word. They might have provided a link too, but I have no recollection of which page that was on.


 * I feel I need to make something clear here, however, since I didn't before. I don't disagree with what Zhran says about the Sith teachings being spread through the ranks during the Mandalorian Wars. As far as Atton knows, they were spread only after the Mandalorian Wars, so he's correct to raise the point. (My guess would be that he spread them to his closest followers prior to the end of the Mandalorian Wars, then spread them to everyone else following their conclusion)


 * All I'm saying is that, in regards to when Revan became a Sith, every single indication in the games is that he was a Sith Lord during the later stages of the Mandalorian Wars and that he was planning on spreading the Sith Teachings beyond himself and Malak as soon as he was able. One of the points of Malachor V was to drive a considerable number of Jedi to the dark side precisely so they would be susceptable to the Sith teachings.


 * Can we say for certain that he was the Dark Lord of the Sith in secret? I guess not, though where there's smoke, there is usually fire. The problems I had here were that there was a point where people were stating in the article - as fact - that Revan was a Dark Lord for only two years.  The evidence suggests not. (Ulicus 16:10, 11 November 2007 (UTC))
 * Uh, though having just read the relevant section... there ISN'T a part where it says the Sith teachings are spread during the Mandalorian Wars. So I'm not sure what Zhran was talking about.


 * "Such a total victory over their adversaries, despite the Republic casualties, saw Revan hailed as a savior. Yet unbeknownst to those praising him, the Sith teachings were already sweeping through the ranks of those who had followed him to war"


 * That's in keeping with what Atton says. He says "After the Mandalorian Wars", which could in fairness be ANY POINT after the Mandalorian Wars, but then clarifies further with "after Malachor".


 * If he meant "any time after Malachor", it would have been an unnecessary addition, since he had that covered with "After the Mandalorian Wars", so it must be taken as an addition that provides a greater chronological context. He didn't say, "After the Mandalorian wars, just after Revan led us to the Star Forge, that's when the Sith teachings began to spread..." (Ulicus 16:19, 11 November 2007 (UTC))

Ok, so I said I wasn't going to do it... but hey, it wasn't hard. Here's my suggested replacement for the section that Sentry highlighted:

(I've edited out "the so-called" bit from the version I posted on your talk page, Sentry. It seemed out of place)

That cool with everyone? It's short, sweet, sticks to the facts, identifies Kreia's theory as what it is and doesnt make any assumptions as to what the "greater evil" actually is. To cater to the crowd that refuse to believe a dark Jedi would embrace Sith teachings (:P) I've removed the bit that says Revan returns to the wars whilst "hiding his teachings", since - whilst incredibly likely - I suppose it isn't certain that he's a Sith at that point.(Ulicus 16:48, 11 November 2007 (UTC))
 * Yeah, that looks good to me :)– 05:09, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Cool. It's in. (Ulicus 15:31, 12 November 2007 (UTC))

Queedle instead of Hukta Jax
Since the light side version of the game is considered canonical, shouldn't we put Queedle as the Manaan sector champion that Revan beat instead of Hukta Jax?--Jedi Kasra 17:00, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
 * We shouldn't really have either imo. The light side ending is canonical. Aside from knowing that Revan redeemed Ajunta Pall (since it's referenced in TSL), nothing else about the light side game is neccessarily canonical. Though it's certainly likely to be.


 * It's not even confirmed that Juhani survives in the grove.(Ulicus 18:44, 9 November 2007 (UTC))

New Great Image
Did anyone else see the awesome image of Revan and Malak as dark lords on starwars.com? It is going to be included in the New Essential Guide to the Force and shows them as being on a mission of some sort. Perhaps looking for the Star Maps...could we put this in the article somewhere? Revan211 03:30, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Revan's name - possible origin
I hope the article is not locked for very long, as it currently is, because I wanted to add a possible inspiration for the name 'Revan'. When I first played KOTOR I thought it probably came from Revenant, which I understood to be someone/thing that came back from the dead. Two definitions given here are 'one that returns after a lengthy absence' or 'one who returns after death' http://www.answers.com/topic/revenant

Both of these would be apt for Revan, would they not? He is presumed dead but actually returns with a new personality. He also returns to the Jedi after a lengthy absence.
 * That was actually already in the article not too long ago - with the very same definitions you mentioned. I think they were removed following the confirmation that "Revanche" was the inspiration for Revan's name. The definitions for "revenant" certainly work, but Leland Chee has stated that Revan's name was derived from "revanche".  In universe it seems even more explicit, since there is a character in the KotOR comics - almost certainly Revan - who has been dubbed "The Revanchist" by the Republic media. [ Uli Talk 01:55, 22 November 2007 (UTC)]

New image
I wish to see if there is room to add a new image into the article, although there seems to be no room for it. It's from the upcoming Jedi vs. Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force from StarWars.com.  Victor  ( talk ) 00:54, 22 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree with Victor. We need to add this to the article.--Jedi Kasra 19:25, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Revan Drove the Sith from Korriban
In KotOR II, Kreia says:
 * "It was said that Revan intended to return to Korriban to subdue any potential Sith insurgents. But Revan disappeared."

And, in PoD, Bane reflects:
 * "Nearly three thousand years had passed between the time the Sith had been driven from Korriban by Revan, and the day Kaan's Brotherhood of Darkness officially reclaimed this world for the order."

Taken together, the quotes seem to confirm that immediately prior to his disappearance, Revan went to Korriban (which was presumably in the midst of the First Sith Civil War) - and routed the Sith that remained there. This should, I feel, be included in the article. ( Uli Talk 02:00, 22 November 2007 (UTC))
 * No. That confirms that Revan, by killing Uthar Wynn, started the First Sith Civil War which drove the Sith from Korriban. So you could say Revan drove the Sith from Korriban, though no one actually made sure they were completely gone until two years later, but Kreia plainly states that Revan disappeared before he could return to Korriban.--Jinger 23:19, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Revan the Revanchist.
So, according to Jedi vs. Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force, it is now clear that the Revanchist is, in fact, Revan. Shouldn't this article have the information from The Revanchist merged into it as is the case with Darth Malak's and Alek Squinquargesimus's.--Master Dakari 07:21, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
 * So, shouldn't they have merged the Revanchist's page with Revan? User: Atrulean Starkiller December 7 2007
 * Not until the spoiler period is over. jSarek 07:04, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Revan's mother
Couldn't we mention Revan's mother in this article? Revan said that his mother died a long time ago, but he didn't say anything about his dad. We have to mention something about his parents someday, don't we? - Will Karner, 10:11 A.M., 28 November 2007
 * Not really. Or, at least, not while we have absolutely no information about them. What was said in the game, if the player chose to say this, is something that is part of his programmed identity, give to him by the Enclave—or High—Council when they restored his wounded mind. I doubt this was a legitimate reference to Revan's actual mother.--Master Dakari 21:40, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

New main image
Who thinks we should change this to the main image. As we know now The Revanchist and Revan were the same man, which means this is the only decent canocial image of him we have. - Lord KAJ  – Company Office 10:23, 29 November 2007 (UTC) So was Revan a nickname taken from his media identity? I imagine people would grow tired of always referring to him as the Revanchist, so maybe they shortened it to Revan (or he did)?--Sith Alchemy 101 10:31, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm 50/50 on this one. This picture is the best one we have of him as a Jedi, but most people would recognise his Sith gear. In any case, I think I refer it over the one of him as a vision to the Exile on Korriban.


 * I have never liked the image we currently have, and as I have said many times it is not Revan its merely a hullucination created by the dark side energy of the tomb. As for the name its most likely he derived his title of Darth Revan from the nickname the media dubbed him. - Lord KAJ  – Company Office 10:37, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't think this image is at all better than the one we already have. If anything, it's infinitely worse. It shows no detail whatsoever, whereas the one we already have shows what he actually looked like during his time as a Sith Lord. The one we have up remains.  Jasca Ducato Sith Council 22:46, 29 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Well technically he spent the vast majority of his life as a Jedi, and was redeemed before he left for the unknown reigons. Therfore I think its more appropriate to depict him as a Jedi. - Lord KAJ  – Company Office 07:58, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Right. It would be like if we switched Anakin Skywalker's image to one of Hayden Christensen as soon as we got the first promotional images of him. The fact that he's more notable in and out of universe as Vader is not important. People too often forget the dialogue line "My name isn't Revan. It's [player name]." So, I agree with KAJ.-LtNOWIS 09:31, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
 * While I understand the points of KAJ, and I acknowledge them as technically correct...that's a set of robes. It doesn't tell us anything at all. Besides, it's possible that Revan donned the Sith robes in his time as a Jedi, as per Shadows and Light. I'd say keep a Revan as Sith Lord image. I'm not really a fan of the current one either. Thefourdotelipsis 09:44, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
 * While thats true I think the brown robe image adds to the mystery surrounding the charcter. Also im not sure about the canocial status of Shadows and Light, but I think that depiction of him in his sith robes was just a genrelization as we had no canocial dress sense for him other than that, until now. - Lord KAJ  – Company Office 12:19, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
 * It's a vision, but it's still a possibility. Infobox images aren't supposed to project mystery, they're supposed to illustrate the character's appearance. Thefourdotelipsis 03:09, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
 * This is a tad tangential, but I believe that, while the Sith Robes version of Revan should be preserved as the main image, perhaps the image of him wielding his lightsaber on his ship's bridge in preparation for his duel with Bastila Shan may be more evocative of his power and more suitable than the image of the vision that the Exile had in the tomb of Ludo Kressh. It is a vision, after all, not Revan himself, and, while it does offer one of the clearest looks at Revan, an image from his actual life might be better suited for a page about his life.  Another good choice may be the one of Revan on (is it Lehon or Korriban?  I can't quite tell.  Looks like Korriban's sky, but the architecture...), just before removing his mask in the memory montage.  Please, please don't kill/flame me for this suggestion. Kriim Ianga 01:03, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Maybe someone could mod their character in KOTOR to have Revan's model and take a picture of him on Lehon or somewhere? I dislike the current main image because, as others have said, it's just a vision, not Revan himself.Sith Alchemy 101 12:34, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Controversy On Revan that I think that can be fixed
[removed long boring letter]
 * May I ask why you have written this here? QuentinGeorge 07:49, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Because he's spamming it everywhere it isn't relevant, such as Wikipedia. The only place where it is relevant, the StarWars.com forums, redirects people here. --  I need a name  ( Complain here ) 11:41, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Nevermind, but thanks for deleting this. :) I regret posting this up in the first place. Anyways, thanks! :)

Date of turning to the dark side
I'm a little bit confused here. When did Revan turn to the dark side? I know he and Alek started the dark path on Dantooine, but when did that happen? Was that when they've learned of the Star Forge or when they've started the Jedi Crusaders after so many defiances? - Will Karner 1:36 P.M., 2 December 2007 Hold on, I thought that Revan fell during the war not before it, further more, his article clearly states that Revan fell to the Dark Side when he discovered Malachor sometime around 3,961 BBY. We also know that Revan isn't his original name so what is? User: Atrulean Starkiller 2 December 2007 (UTC)
 * According to Master Dorak, Revan and Malak sought out the star maps after the Battle of Malachor V. After the end of the Mandalorian Wars, Revan and Malak were sighted on different worlds, but none of these reports were confirmed until months later, when they came back from the Outer Rim with their new star fleet. However, Revan is said to have fallen to the dark side on Malachor V&hellip; and he is also said to have used the Mandalorian Wars as a means of converting Jedi, so he must have got to Trayus Academy before the wars.--Jinger 22:08, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
 * That's what the Council claimed. Revan took up the mantle of Dark Lord of the Sith only some time later the end of the Mandalorian Wars. Unknown to the Council, however, all along he was trying to convert Jedi using the teachings of Trayus Academy, so he basked in the power of the dark side before he went to war, or at least before he led the Jedi into the conflict.--Jinger 06:41, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I still think that he fell during the war and no one has yet considered trying to find out if the guys that are making the series are going to reveal Revan's true name? User: Atrulean Starkiller December 7 2007
 * We don't know that Revan isn't his true name. He could have just named the movement after himself. Why should Zannah be the only Sith to use her original name?--Jedi Kasra 19:53, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I never said that Zannah was the only Sith to add to Darth to her name and I doubt she is but I just want to know whether Revan is his real name or not. User: Atrulean Starkiller December 9 2007 (UTC)

Redeemed or not Redeemed: For God's sake, Revan was redeemed!!!
Why is it that books like Jedi vs. Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force say stuff like it's unknown whether Revan was redeemed or not? It is considered canon that he was redeemed, so what the heck is the big issue? He turned back to the Light Side, redeemed Bastila, and killed Darth Malak. That obviously means HE WAS REDEEMED, people.--Jedi Kasra 19:53, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Ask the guy who made the DAMN book! User: Atrulean Starkiller December 7 2007
 * The book is written in-universe, at a point in time when information on early periods was scarce. And try not to shout. --  AdmirableAckbar  [Talk] 11:04, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I vaguely remember a part in KOTOR 2 where Kreia suggests that it wasn't Revan's choice to return to the light side. Whether Revan's decision to turn back to the light was based on the memories he regained with time, or because of his reprogramming isn't entirely clear. Sith Alchemy 101 00:29, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Height?
So far as I'm aware there's never been anything stating any physical characteristics of Revan, beyond his gender. What's the source for the height listed? Vryce 07:48, 10 December 2007 (UTC) Screenshot
 * I believe there is no source for the height, which is probably why it got reverted. --Jedimca0(Do or Do Not, There is No Try) 09:31, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
 * All right, so there's technically no "gospel" source, but it can be determined mathematically. The screenshot below shows the in-game models of Revan and Malak standing beside each other (granted it's obviously from a modded game to achieve the shot, but so is the article's main image of Revan holding one saber in Ludo Kresh's tomb). Since we know Malak is two meters tall, we can compare the number of pixels tall he is in the image to the number of pixels tall Revan is and thereby find Revan's height. If you find my method a bit too Saxtonesque or that Revan's model is the same height as every other character model in the game and wish to disregard this reasoning completely, that's fine by me. Shock Wave 23:12, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I should note that it's impossible, no matter what mathematical calculations you come up with, to determine a characters height in KOTOR, or 99% of games out there. All the models are exactly the same height....Malak and some others (like Wookiees) are just exceptions. -- Redemption [[Image:Redemptionusersymbol.png|25px]] (Talk) 02:44, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Big Edit
If anyone has any queries about sources or whatnot, ask away. :) ( Uli Talk 20:52, 10 December 2007 (UTC))
 * Yeah...whats the line that says Arren Kae was Revans first master? We know for certain that she taught him at some point but I don't quite recall it ever being said that she was the first. I believe this might just be fanwank to further the theory of Kreia and Kae being one in the same...-- Redemption [[Image:Redemptionusersymbol.png|25px]] (Talk) 02:42, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
 * It ain't. While Mical's references to Kae are arguably open to debate, Starwarsknights interviewed Avellone and asked about this. He wasn't allowed to provide an answer on the matter (possibly because of the incoming Dark Horse comic issues) but he didn't say "what are you talking about, it is never said that they're both Revan's first and last teacher".--Jinger 03:29, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Then take it out. This "ain't" a place for speculation. Keep that Kae was his master but the part about Kae possibly being his first must go. -- Redemption [[Image:Redemptionusersymbol.png|25px]] (Talk) 03:38, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
 * So Avellone is wrong, and Mical is ambiguous. A simple statement like "as a Padawan, Revan was trained by Master Kae [&hellip;] I do not recall who Revan's master was after that."--Jinger 04:46, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Actually, the line was "Revan had many Masters. Zhar, Dorak, Master Kae before Kae left for the Wars. Towards the end of his training, he sought out many to learn techniques. It is said that he returned to his first master at the end of his training, in order to learn how he might best leave the order. I do not recall who Revan's master was... strange." There isn't any ambiguous about that. Kae was simply a master before she left for the War. Simply put. And all Avellone said was that he couldn't comment on the Kae/Kreia speculation. Take it out. -- Redemption [[Image:Redemptionusersymbol.png|25px]] (Talk) 04:54, 11 December 2007 (UTC)