Talk:Meetra Surik

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Note
The lengthy discussions previously here have been put in the third archive. If you want to start a discussion, you may want to check one of the previous archives to see if your points have been raised already. If you want to start up a discussion complaining about the Exile being female: please do so on another site, unless you can find a genuinely new point and can do so without insulting other editors or the Lucasfilm people responsible for setting the female lightside Exile as canon. Thanks. &mdash;Silly Dan (talk) 15:25, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

They should stop giving the main character a canonical gender
Seriously, they need to stop doing that. Let the character be either male or femal, don't give them an official gender. First, there won't be any problems, since just about everyone is a sexist. Second, it makes it sound like the character isn't your own creation like it really is. Next time BioWare should avoid making the character a huge part of the Star Wars history, then they can avoid that canonical gender crap.
 * Though I agree with your opinion, it's not our choice to say what is canon and what is not, and since the existance of those unique characters (Revan and the Jedi Exile) is their intellectual property, you must accept that they get to decide who and what they were. Besides, it's not like their decision lessens those games in any way. Master Kavar 06:45, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I swear, the next topic related to gender here will be deleted, and its poster banned. QuentinGeorge 06:49, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
 * You may be surprised, but the character is actually not your creation. Exile was created by Obsidian and is "owned" by Lucasfilm, and they are the ones who decide what to do with their universe. - Sikon 14:50, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Canon and Life
Its a cruel world where this is such a bickering issue. But if we must make the arguement for why the Jedi Exile is female, let us make something very clear. According to the current Star Wars canon, the Jedi Exile is female. However, the key word here for anyone who dislikes the idea is 'current'. There can be made a dozen arguements that the The New Essential Guide to Droids is not strictly word for word correct. There have been other errors in specific factors, and one could interpret the information as being 'fluff' instead of fact. HOWEVER, regarding this issue of the gender of the Jedi Exile, this is the first official source that states that the Jedi Exile is female. This creates canon, which will remain as such till another official source states otherwise. That is not to say that, in the future, the gender will not be changed. George Lucas himself may even eventually state that the Jedi Exile is male, and then that becomes canonical and replace the canon created by he New Essential Guide to Droids. But, in the current canon, the Jedi Exile is female, if simply due to the fact that no other work has touched on the issue. Thusly, the arguement about the gender of the Jedi Exile is irrelevent, as the issue currently has factual grounding to support the arguement for a Female Exile. If at any point in the future new official information comes out, this can create a new arguement. But at this point in time, canon has stated the Jedi Exile is female. Jackaron 20:30, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Firstly, please put new topics at the bottom of the talk page. Secondly, no offence and thatnks for your explanation, but this has been said many-a-time, but the battle lines are drawn, and i doubt any one person explaining it will convince the "pro-males" to give up. Darth Abeonis Sith Council (Sith campaign) 18:09, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Gender bias?
While it is now clear that the Exile is canonically female, I wonder why there is no specific reference to the alternate male version of the game. Notably Brianna is missing as a possible romance option. But for Revan, Carth still appears as a romance option, even though Revan is canonically male. The missing option of Brianna as a romantic option in TSL may therefore be interpreted as gender bias in favor of a female Exile while there is no such bias for Revan. That is a problem for Wookieepedia. Indeed, someone seems to have gone to work on the male incarnation of the Exile in order to remove him from history altogether, while Revan's page shows no such determination. That the page is then also locked from editing does not imply something positive.. :( Jediphile 19:32, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Uh...or maybe someone just hasn't written it yet. In case you didn't notice, the Visas romance IS there as well as Atris. -- Redemption Talk [[Image:Oldrepublic.jpg|15px]] 19:37, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, but both Visas and Atris are significant characters for both the female and male Exile. Brianna, however, is a significant character only for the male Exile, so her removal seems to imply a deliberate choice, when Mical is still noted for the female (and canonical) Exile Jediphile 19:43, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
 * No, she is a BIG part. Remember that she was the one who brought Kreia to Atris since she was pissed that she killed the Exile and then the Exile goes to rescue her (terrific scene BTW). Whoever wrote those two just hasn't gotten around to writing up Brianna. I can tell you that the same thing happened when I wrote the Atton section. I wrote Atton and left Mical and Sion out until later (mainly due to laziness and the fact that I was rushing). -- Redemption Talk [[Image:Oldrepublic.jpg|15px]] 19:46, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Brianna only ever appears during the Exile's first visit to Atris' academy for the female Exile (she is completely absent from that point on), so the scene you describe is unique to the male Exile alone (and yes, I agree it was terrific). Yet this does not appear appear on the page, since the male Exile seems to be banned now, and Brianna along with it. And needless to say, her option as a romantic option for the male Exile cannot be added now, since the page is locked. That's a problem because it implies something. Jediphile 19:55, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
 * The only thing it implies is that the admins lost their patience with the vandals and nobody had a chance to write it before it was locked. If you want to write it and submit it to an admin to enter, go right ahead. -- Redemption Talk [[Image:Oldrepublic.jpg|15px]] 20:18, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Actually, from what I understand there was a staggering amount of alterations to the Exiles page, and when the admins locked it they probably deleted information about Brianna, to discourage those who couldn't accept that the Exile was female.
 * The alterations to the article are because the vandals keep using older versions of the article where the gender and quotes have been changed. You can check through the history to see if anything's been removed. --  I need a name  ( Complain here ) 16:34, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
 * No, trust me, this wasn't about bias. I was the one who wrote the Visas romance section, and completly rehauled Brianna's own page awhile ago to mention the male Exile in detail. I was getting around to adding Brianna to the Exile's page, but then it got locked and I haven't got around to writing it up so I could ask for the shield to be removed. But you're not the first person to mention this, seems like I better hurry up. :P Master Kavar 21:04, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Create a Seperate Male Page
wouldnt this solve alot of problems? if we had a female and a male (non-cannon page)? just like how we use to have a lengthier page on brianna, and now shes just a sub-character.

i would also like to point out the essentai sw books are not always accurate, infact there are numerous spelling and grammer errors, as well as saying the TIE defender has no sheilding. if we go by this book, i think we should also include the TIE defender has no sheilds, despite what the novels say--Hc8719 15:04, 12 September 2006 (UTC) yes i agree with the above statement, just because there are three sentences in a single book about droids is not enough to solidify canon in this respect, these books are regularly filled with inconsistencies. There are too many differences and intertwined background points for all the other character in KOTOR-2 to simply brush off half of the story and background. Beyond this, I would argue that there is more character, story, and history development when the game is played thru as a male as opposed to a female. Simply put, I believe that leaving the exile's sex ambiguous is the best choice, it allows for the most information to be included about all of the other characters, and it helps prevent characters like visas, brianna, and atris from becoming less notable, due to some percieved belief that their in-game actions did not happen.
 * We do not determine canon. LucasFilm licensing does that and they have decided to make the Exile female. The entry in the NEGD is not the only evidence. Leland Chee has confirmed the decision multiple times. I too preferred a male exile, but that simply does not matter. A decision was made and we have to live with it.– 20:12, 1 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Against. While we do have pages on non-canon characters, even as ridiculous as Henry Jones, we don't have an articles on different non-canon versions of the same characters. Otherwise, we would have to deal with, say, Jaden Korr (Male Human), Jaden Korr (Female Twi'lek), Jaden Korr (Female Zabrak) etc. - Sikon 05:52, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Absolutely not No point, in my mind. If there are some fans who can't handle that the gender of the Exile is canonically decided, then tough QuentinGeorge 06:22, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Its not exactely hard to get your head around is it? She's female, period. Jasca Ducato 08:49, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
 * then please remove that TIE defenders had any sheilds, because acording to the essentials book, they had no sheilds.--Hc8719 23:38, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Why does it even matter? -- I need a name 23:41, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
 * The fact of the matter is this: As of now, the only canonical source for the Exile's gender says that the Exile is female.  That's it.  That's the way it is.  In the future, she may be retconned to male, who knows.  But as of now she is a she and that is the way it is. - Angel Blue 451 00:09, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

and thats fine, but how does that relate to the TIE defender topic?--72.240.65.5 01:55, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm for creating a seperate page for the male Exile. Not because I have a problem with the Jedi Exile being officially female, nor because I'm not convinced, but just because the two characters had some key differences in their character. Besides, Wookieepedia has lots of pages on things and characters who aren't considered canon (such as the Devaronian Jedi who was cut from TSL) So what's the harm in making a seperate entry with a clear disclaimer that the male Jedi Exile is non-canon? Master Kavar 06:13, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
 * The Exile is female, and while yes, there are pages for noncanonical characters, those characters are technically possible if canonized, meaning they don't contradict others. There is only one exile, and it's female. To make a page would be to settle to the demands of many who can't take the fact that the exile is female. It would create confusion and probably not make good light for the wookie. I'm against it because of this. --Sauron18 06:35, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I still have to disagree, even if I'm alone on this one. I still think it's a good idea because having a oage only for the canon Jedi Exile effectively cuts out 3/4 of the rest of the TSL game. The canon Jedi Exile is the only "real" one, and she exists well outside her own little video game continuim and in the larger world of the Extended Universe. But I can't help but feel it's a complete waste to act like the other alternate Exile's have no place on wookieepedia. I'm not going to make an issue of it or anything, but how can wookipeedia be complete if it doesn't cover EVERYTHING in the Star Wars universe, canonized or not? Master Kavar 04:41, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
 * It might be a good idea move the male Exile related info into its own article tagged as noncanon. It would be kind of ironic, seeing the quote on the noncanon template is referring to the Exile. I do see Sikon's point as well, though.--Darth OblivionComlink[[Image:Oldsith.png|20px]] 04:51, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Maybe we should vote on this? - Sikon 05:39, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Can't we just expand the gender part of the behind the scenes section to cover it? Green tentacle 08:31, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Guys, I really don't see the issue here. If you're worried that so much information is lost, place it in the "Behind the Scenes" section like we do with all the articles that have alternative realities. Look at the Revan article, toward the bottom. Dark side ending? Romance with Carth? Romance with Juhani? None of this is considered canon, but it still has a place in the fringes of the article; we can do the same here without resorting to a "fake" page. -BaronGrackle 15:56, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
 * The issue is that alot of people still can't accept the female exile, is sad really. Expansion o the gender section will cover anything, as well as a expanded BTS possibly. No sperate article Jedi Dude 16:01, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
 * That's probably best. It is sad that some can't accept the female Exile. It never bothered me at all. And FYI, Hc8719, the Essential Guides do state the TIE Defenders had shields.--Darth OblivionComlink[[Image:Oldsith.png|20px]] 16:59, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Agreed. The behind the scenes sections should be expanded, but no male Exile article made.  There is, after all, a fanon wiki for that purpose. - Angel Blue 451 17:05, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
 * The non-canon Exile's story is not "fanon", it is part of the TSL video game story, which is an officially liscensed and published peice of EU. A male Exile is much more real than someone creating their own Star Wars character. I guess it would be okay to add the alternate story bits to the existing Jedi Exile page, but I'm worried about bogging down this canonized character with too much alternate tid-bits. It has nothing to do with not being able to accept her gender, but preserving information about the original game.Master Kavar 05:06, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Don't worry; as Green tentacle said originally, it can be fit into this article. If Kyle Katarn's article isn't bogged down with references to a new Emperor of the galaxy, or if Revan's article isn't bogged down with a female Darth Revan killing Carth onboard the Star Forge, then we can fit the major male details here. -BaronGrackle 13:37, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

your not alone master kavar, i created this topic for the purpose to create a seperate male exile page, anyone who doesnt agree to this, is technically as ignorant as male exile fanatics (which may or may not include myself)--Hc8719 03:52, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Just because someone doesn't agree doesn't make them ignorant HC! Its just that there is no place for a non-canon Exile article here on Wookieepedia, and never will be. So i say no. Jasca Ducato 08:06, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I am against this notion of a separate male page. I agree that the male story it is not technically "fanon," but all that needs to be said is already in the current Exile page: Just a brief paragraph explaining the differences between gender selection behind the scenes. Brianna's part in the male Exile story is also covered in her article, below her story. I think the original poster of this idea is just another person disgruntled over the canonity of the female Exile, whether he says he is or not. Making another article entirely is useless, and will not "solve problems." The people in the nerdrages over the female Exile just need to GET OVER IT, like the top of this talk page says. Making more and more discussion over this just leads to more of those problems, and I really think the admins/mods should step in again. --Scy Storm 08:38, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

i really think some of you hardcore by the book, are ignorant in the fact that: 1. lucas arts advertised as a male exile 2. the trailer portrays as a male exile 3. the tsl page on lucas arts still portrays a male exile 4. i trust a website owned by lucas arts, more than a book by an author, and only published by lucas arts 5. most everyone believed the jedi exile to most likely be a male, until about 2 years after the games release?

6.would it really be the end of the world if we made a seperate male page, and this debate could be over just like that?--Hc8719 23:45, 28 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I understand your points, but the reality of the matter (I use the term knowing I speak of a fictional universe) is that the Exile is, canonically, female. A separate male page would blur the line.  There is nothing that we couldn't include on the canonical Exile's page.  There would be no point. -  Angel Blue 451 (Holonet)[[Image:Jedi_Order.jpg|20px]] 23:50, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
 * You trust LucasArts over... LucasArts? That makes sense how? A lot of people think that Revan was the mullet guy. Should we make an article called Revan (Mullet Guy) too? And the adverts and website for TSL show the Exile as both light sided and dark sided. Should we make a Jedi Exile (dangerous split personality) article for that? -- I need a name 12:22, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
 * FYI the most popular face for male Revan was the one with the scar under the eye (Source: LucasArts), its the one i choose :-). But i agree with "name", one canon character, one article. Jasca Ducato Sith Council (Sith campaign) 19:07, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

no i need a name, i dont think we should have a mullet revan page, because it is the same story, the male and female story in tsl differ to some degree. besides the fact that we dont have an official revan pic, your point is not nessesary. in fact it was a terrible example, it would be like making a page for "Luke" and then a page for "Luke after mark Hamill got in a car accident between IV and V. can we at least expand on the male jedi exile on this page, like we did for female revan?--Hc8719 00:02, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
 * If you feel it can be expanded, then go ahead and expand something, but don't get too crazy with it, because a whole new article on a male Exile is not needed. The article in its current form is fine as far as the Exile being male goes. The Exile is officially female and light side, so anything else that be done differently is for the alternate sections below her official CANON storyline. --Scy Storm 08:57, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Is there an official decision on the Exile's gender yet? I know it is considered cannon female but isn't there suppose to be an announcement from whoever decides this stuff confirming it? So thats a no, there hasn't been anyone with authority confirming it.
 * The information in the Essential Guide to Droids is enough, the Exile is female, and people just need to live with it. It's really really really really really not that big of a deal AT ALL. --Scy Storm 08:57, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Erm no, thats a yes! The New Essential Guide to Droid's is written by someone with authority, because it has to go through LucasFilm or whatever company it goes through, which is controlled by GL. Jasca Ducato Sith Council (Sith campaign) 17:55, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Really? I was reading the Darth Nihilus page here on wookieepedia and on it, and acording to Star Wars:The Ultimate Visual Guide, Sion was Nihilus apprentice which is wrong. Or am I to accept this as undisputed fact?
 * Star Wars: The Ultimate Visual Guide is a completely different book to The New Essential Guide to Droids. --  I need a name  ( Complain here ) 19:37, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes, the book about droids obviously has much more authority on people than the visual guide.
 * They're on the same level of authority, actually. --  I need a name  ( Complain here ) 19:41, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

In that case, Sion was Nihilus's apprentice, and this is a fact. I suggest the immediate renovation of Sion's page so people know he was Nihilus's apprentice.
 * That's more than likely a mistake in the book. And before you suggest it, that doesn't mean the Exile being female is a mistake too. --  I need a name  ( Complain here ) 19:48, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

No, it doesn't. But until there is an official announcement on the Exiles gender, I don't think anyone can say the Exile is a female with 100% fact backing them up.
 * Against. Look, guys, just live with it. Revan is male, Exile is female. It makes sense, and gives equal opportunity to both genders. I'm pretty sure we don't have a Revan (female) page, so why make one for the exile?  Commander Darc  (GAR) [[Image:Galactic_Republic.JPG|20px]] 20:11, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

I do not think anyone can say that the Exile is one gender or another. There is only one source stating the Exile is female, and there is a possibility of error. Until it is confirmed by LucasFilms or whoever no one can say the Exile is male or female. And by the way, what kind of arguement is "It makes sense"? It makes sense whether the Exile is light or dark or male or female.

Yes! I win Mwahahahahaha!
 * No, you don't win. The NEGD mentions it three times, so it's unlikely to be a mistake. Plus, Leland Chee has talked about wanting to make the Exile a woman. So drop the sexist attitude and accept it. Green Tentacle (Talk) 21:37, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
 * *sigh* Just lock this talk page so we can have some serious discussion on the Exile and not this eliptical jabber which bears no significance. -- Redemption Talk [[Image:Oldrepublic.jpg|15px]] 21:54, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Leland Chee is one person, while LucasFilms or whoever decides this stuff is a company. There are probably many different opionons in that company so Leland Chee does not have final say. Also, it is possible that there was a mistake. There have been mistakes made before and just because the writer believes some thing does not make it true. Lastly, what sexist attitude? I have never said that the Exile cannot be female, I just stated that I think no one can say that the Exile is one gender or another. Just because I do not agree that the Exiles gender has been chosen already does not give you the right to call me sexist.
 * Then you should also know that Leeland Chee was the guy who decided Revan was male. Well, guess that's out the window! -- Redemption Talk [[Image:Oldrepublic.jpg|15px]] 22:02, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Leland Chee has the unenviable job of trying to make sure everything fits continuity-wise. He is the second highest authority of Star Wars canon, the highest being George Lucas himself. --  I need a name  ( Complain here ) 22:05, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Revan being a male was accepted by LucasFilms or whoever and so is perfectly acceptable. But as far as I can tell, though he is tring to make the Exile female it is still up in the air. If he does make the Exile female then I will accept it, but as long as a decision has not yet been made his opinion can not be accepted as fact. As I stated before, mistakes are made. If you can say that the Exile being female is 100% true, then it is also true that Sion was Nihilus' apprentice. And, honestly, do think they would choose to announce the Exiles gender in a reference in a book about droids.
 * All LucasBooks material MUST go through LucasFilms for approval before it can be published. Therefore, Exile as a female is accepted by Lucasfilms as CANON. My God...-- Redemption Talk [[Image:Oldrepublic.jpg|15px]] 22:15, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Things like that slip by. Do you honestly think something as controversal as "heroine" for Exile would just get by (numerous times mind you)? Don't think so. -- Redemption Talk [[Image:Oldrepublic.jpg|15px]] 22:22, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Right, the Sion / Nihilus thing is a mistake because it contradicts the game where they are equals. The Exile's gender does not contradict anything and is canon. And the reason it was confirmed in NEGD is presumably because it was the first book to come out after they made the decision. So please drop the subject. Green Tentacle (Talk) 22:25, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
 * It seems that once the decision was made, it was the next book in the pipeline which had a reason to mention the KOTOR II storyline, that's all. Had the publishing schedule been different, it could have been first mentioned in a WOTC RPG web article, The New Essential Guide to Alien Species, a Star Wars Insider article, etc., etc. &mdash;Silly Dan (talk) 22:26, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Why not? If some one who didn't know the Exile gender wasn't decided, thought that the gender was suppose to be female or wanted it to be female was the one checking the book, it would have slipped by. If Leland Chee was in charge of making sure the book was correct cannon wise ( and it sounds like thats his job), he might have let it go because he wants the Exile to be female.
 * Exactly. And if someone thought Jadens gender was decided when NEC came out and that slipped by then I guess that page has to be changed too. Just admit it. You can't handle Exile being a female. And if you can't handle it then stop visiting Wookieepedia. -- Redemption Talk [[Image:Oldrepublic.jpg|15px]] 22:35, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Because simply, facts are fact, and really if it bothers you so much then just don't read this page. Jedi Dude 22:51, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

I resent the fact that you are giving me motives I don't have. I have not said the Exile can't be female and you have no right to say I should not visit this site. I suggested that the Exiles gender not be decided until there is more information and have given my reasons why.If you dont like it then say so or counter my arguements with your own evidence but dont insult me.
 * And so, I quote myself: *sigh* Someone forgot to lock the page...anyway. ONE source is all that is needed to delclare something canon. As long as nothing contradicts it, it's canon. If you don't like it, leave please. -- Redemption Talk [[Image:Oldrepublic.jpg|15px]] 23:14, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Then we have to change Sion's page to reflect that he was Nihilus' apprentice. It is stated in Star Wars: The Ultimate Visual Guide, a book approved by LucasArts and as far as I know there is nothing that contradicts this. Therefore it is cannon.

It is contradicted by the game (KOTOR II) itself. In the game, they are equals. Master 76 Holodisk Mind TrickJedi Library 03:35, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

They are equals in the game but it is possible that at one time before the game it was different. In fact, that is what the book states. At one point in time Sion was Nihilus' apprentice.
 * Everything in the game suggests that Sion is acting on his own accord since they exiled Kreia. Wouldn't make much sense if Sion and Nihilus exiled Kreia and then Sion just goes ahead and becomes Nihilus' apprentice. Not only that but it's pretty clear in Sith tradition that Sion would have challenged Nihilus. If he'd lose, then he'd still be his apprentice. If he had won, then there wouldn't be any Nihilus now would there? -- Redemption Talk [[Image:Oldrepublic.jpg|15px]] 05:07, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

It is possible that Sion was Nihilus' apprentice while Nihilus was Kreia's, much as the Lost Jedi were apprenticed under the Exile while the Exile was apprenticed under Kreia. And Sion never seemed to have much regard for Sith tradition anyway. He cared nothing about ruling the galaxy, and "loved" the Exile, two very un-Sith like traits.
 * Nope. There is no way in hell that Sion was Nihilus apprentice while he was still under the apprenticeship of Traya (since Sion was also under her and probably valued more then Nihilus since he "wore her teachings so well"). Remember that Sion couldn't help but love the Exile ("one cannot resist the feelings of the heart") and that he HATED her for it. Also, the Sith don't always want to rule the galaxy. Traya never expressed any desire to rule over a vast empire. Sion valued strength, so there would be no doubt that he'd attempt to challenge Nihilus if he were his master. And the one time he did challenge Nihilus (though it was cut) he specifically calls their relationship an "alliance", not a Master/Apprentice one. -- Redemption Talk [[Image:Oldrepublic.jpg|15px]] 19:27, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree with the above post. But as for creating a separate male page, I vote no. Master 76 Holodisk Mind TrickJedi Library 01:16, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

In that case, can we at least have a little more detail on the male exile in the Gender section of the page? I'd do it myself but the page is locked and don't know how to submit information. (My skill in Computer Use: 0)


 * It makes sense, because if you have the conversation with Kreia at the end, she tells the Exile that she will join Revan in defending the galaxy from a "great evil". There's probably going to be some romance between the two, since Revan cannot return to Bastila from his fulltime "job". (btw, to the Admins, if this dude acts up again, he should be exiled.  Commander Darc  (GAR) [[Image:Galactic_Republic.JPG|20px]] 21:22, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Thats a bold statement. Revan is suppose to be lightside, remember. Cheating on Bastila isn't something he would do. Wouldn't be very hero like.

can we at least edit this page, to reflect at the bottom, the male version (even though its not cannical). if you disagree, then we should probably remove the dark side alternative endings as well) just the same, someone contact and admin, and ask for temporary sheild deactivation, so we can expand on the "non-cannonical" male story--Hc8719 00:04, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Exile is male i can prove it
The exile is male because it in a certin cut that is the one from dantioonie with the droid and fixing it, it even when a female charachter says "The exile cant be controlled, He was argueing with my padawan the other day"said vrook - Jaceb Scorn 18:51, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Any ways it doesnt matter that the exile is female but i piture him male
 * The Exile is female. Stop trying to prove otherwise. Give up before you start!Jasca Ducato Sith Council (Sith campaign)[[Image:SOFD.PNG|20px]] 19:29, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Ok but prove that hes female and ill give up, but dont take it from a guy who has problably never even played the game have a vote for male or female Exile Also the exile could have been unisex for all we know - Jaceb Scorn 12:46, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
 * If you'll check the article's "Behind the scenes" section, you'll note that the Exile has been set to female in The New Essential Guide to Droids. The end. &mdash;Silly Dan (talk) 12:52, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Not the end that not proof that some guy thinks he's the authority and says the exile is female thats not proof any ways maybe the exile was a unisex meaning he was both _ Jaceb Scorn 12:59, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
 * As far as Lucasfilm is concerned, the persons responsible for making the Exile female (Daniel Wallace, Leland Chee, etc.,) are the authorities. This does not mean heavily armed-Lucasfilm goons will seize your copy of KOTOR II for playing a male PC: it only means that all references to the character in the future will refer to her as a woman. Please check the previous archived talk pages for the various arguments which have already been made. &mdash;Silly Dan (talk) 13:05, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I summit but ill be back after i contact the Obsidian developers _ Jaceb Scorn 13:10, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Obsidian developers have no part in this. Because that's just what they are. Developers. They don't make the decisions. They made the Exile up to the choice of the player. Just as Bioware did for Revan. Funny how nobody raises any fuse about that. -- Redemption Talk [[Image:Oldrepublic.jpg|15px]] 13:15, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
 * that is kinda funny - Jaceb Scorn 13:23, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Jaceb, stop being petty and realise thet you are wrong. The Exile is female (as much as i hate it) and you can't change it. Jasca Ducato Sith Council (Sith campaign)[[Image:SOFD.PNG|20px]] 19:36, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I alreadly gave up what do you think "i summit" means - Jaceb Scorn 12:57, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
 * According to dictionary.com and Wiktionary, using "summit" as a verb means that you reached the top of a mountain. -- Darth Culator  (Talk) 14:04, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I have a question. I have heard a lot about the Exiles gender. Some say its female, some say its male or undecided, and I am at a loss because I dont know what is true. This site says the Exile is cannon female. So I ask. Is this site connected to LucasArts or films or whatever, or is this just another persons opinion? Please let me know.
 * The site is unofficial, but we strive to remove any fan speculation (fanon) and only leave what's said in canonical sources. This article, for instance, says where that information is taken from. The New Essential Guide to Droids says Exile is female. - Sikon 05:50, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Thank you, whoever it is that was born smart, the jedi excile is truthfull and obviously male, no little girl could do such things as in this game, thank you who you are for you are correct.
 * THE EXILE IS MALE!
 * THE EXILE IS FEMALE! There, I said it in bigger, bolder, redder letters, hence I win. --  I need a name  ( Complain here ) [[Image:Sithempire2.jpg|20px]] 12:51, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
 * The Excile is Male, yes now I win, Isaid it last, HA HA, you lose.
 * I'm saying the Exile is female, I said it last, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, let's cut this crap before the talk page is full of "The Exile is MALE!" "The Exile is FEMALE!" nonsense. --  I need a name  ( Complain here ) [[Image:Sithempire2.png|20px]] 00:00, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I dont understand, why cant the exile just be female? if you look at the picture on the page it definately looks like a female.  Ugluk: Destroyer of Redlinks Whine Here 00:05, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
 * This discussion should have ended a long time ago. -  Angel Blue [[Image:Jedi_Order.jpg|20px]](Holonet) 00:12, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I though it had ended long ago. People keep starting the same argument over and over again. Oh, and THE EXILE IS FEMALE!  -- Lord Oblivion Comlink[[Image:Oldsith.png|30px]] 02:05, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Guys, just lock the Exile page once and for all, else you'll never see the end of it. If anybody has an interesting thing to add, he just request here that it's added. It's definetelly better than having to revert neverending vandalism. But that was just my opinion. Oh and while we're at it : LIKE IT OR NOT THE EXILE IS FEMALE YOU BUNCH OF MALE CHAUVINISTS MORONS !!!! (I know it's against the rules but like 3PO said it's "soooooooo good!") --Petiflo 11:25, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm tempted to lock this talk page so that only registered users can use it. I have nothing against anons, but there are WAAAYY too many that have popped on this page and have done nothing but complain about the Exile being female.  StarNeptune Talk to me! 11:34, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
 * That would be a good start... I guess. --Petiflo 12:21, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Although they will probably just register. Personally, I would like to modify the template at the top of the page to say "The Exile is female. Get over it or get off this site." Vitriolic, I know, but this is starting to get out of hand. -- SFH 14:10, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Makes me miss that old template, with Atton saying his line. "Maybe I just wish ((he)) was a woman." That was a great template. -BaronGrackle 21:56, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Padawan vs. Knight
''See also: archive discussion

I admit it can be rather ambiguous what the Exile's exact status was prior to the Mandalorian Wars, but the Disciple's background confession speaks quite a bit. Key bits boldened. Bear with it, if you would:

"If you are not chosen by a master when you have come of age, however... then the path of the Jedi is denied you. I met you on Dantooine, long ago, briefly. You taught us the ways of the Force, how to hear it sing within others, within the life around Dantooine. It is difficult to explain the difference between you and Master Vrook, but I think it is because he was knowledgeable, but not a leader, not a mentor. You were different &mdash; we could all feel it. And I knew that if I were to have a Master, I would want it to be you. And then you went to war. Many Jedi went to war, and the Jedi Masters proclaimed that you were Jedi no longer. Atris, the mistress of the archives, was first among them. I knew at that moment, that if you would no longer be a Jedi, then you must be correct. I realized I did not want to be a Jedi &mdash; instead, I wished to follow your path. And in any event, there was no one to train me, even if I wished it. They all went to war, as I grew past the age of acceptance."

- Mical

Disciple never mentions that Exile couldn't be his master because the Exile was still a Padawan; he says it was because the Exile and (according to him) anyone who could have been his master left to fight. He claims that the Exile was among those who taught prospective Jedi the ways of the Force, and he even compares the Exile to Master Vrook, as one comparing potential mentors. Also remember that taking a Padawan is not a prerequisite for being a Jedi Knight; it is a prerequisite for being a Jedi Master (I think). In any event, search the game. There is no mention of the Exile still being a Padawan when leaving for the wars, there is no mention of her master or master's reaction to her leaving, none of her not completing the trials, or anything of the sort. There is her affinity to forming Force Bonds with masters, but this only proves that she had already had several teachers before leaving, similar to the way Revan learned from many. For now, I'll put the old edits back up. -BaronGrackle 22:35, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

I was also under the assumption that the Exile never acsended to the rank of Jedi Knight. For one reason, because the Exile is never reguarded or acknowledged as Jedi Knight; either in any of her personal coversations, or any third party talks about her. And this discussion that takes place between a male-Exile and Brianna also seems interesting to contemplate:
 * Agreed; if the Exile had actually been just a Padawan, they would've made a mention to it somewhere in the game. If the Exile had been a Padawan she also would've been wearing Padawan robes at her trial, not full Jedi robes. Then there's that snarky comment the Exile makes to Kreia on Peragus about not treating like a Padawan. So people need to stop messing with the article; she's a Jedi Knight until someone can get an official source that says otherwise, period. Master Kavar 23:15, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Then there's that snarky comment the Exile makes to Kreia on Peragus about not treating like a Padawan. What/ Where?! When?!! - Sikon (Vacation) 05:12, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
 * It does mention in-game that the Exile wa a Padawan. Kreia mentions it at some point. As for the Snarky comment, it could well be that the Exile knows she is above the normal level of a Jedi Padawan and dispises being referred to as one. Who said that a padawan couldn't teach younglings (Which is what Mical most likely was) about the Force. It isn't an impossibility for a Padawan to be able to teach about the Force. Jasca Ducato Sith Council (Sith campaign)[[Image:SOFD.PNG|20px]] 10:27, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm fairly sure the game never calls the Exile a Padawan, and quite a few times they call her a Jedi Knight. If your certain about your claim, find and present an exact quote of them calling her such, anything else is just supposition. Master Kavar 19:54, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Who said that a padawan couldn't teach younglings (Which is what Mical most likely was) about the Force. Understand that I mean no sarcasm when I ask: really? Has this ever happened, where a Padawan would give younglings their first introduction to the Force instead of a Knight or a Master? Besides that, if you can remember the generic point when Kreia calls the Exile a Padawan, maybe the rest of us can help find it. Kreia does ramble on throughout the entire game, so it's easy to miss something. That being said... it could be that she just made a remark about when the Exile had been a Padawan, prior to the wars. No way to tell until we find it; it just seems that everything else in the storyline suggests she was already knighted. -BaronGrackle 14:22, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Brianna: "I have thought about what you have said, of my mother, of my bloodline. There is something I would ask of you."
 * Kreia: And so it ends.
 * Brianna: "I want you to teach me the ways of the Force. To become a Jedi Knight like my mother."
 * a PC choice is: "I... am not a Jedi Knight. Ask it of Atris."
 * to which Brianna then replies: "There is no one else I would want to train me. I have seen you in battle, I have seen your heart, and you are what I want to be. It is like a hollow place inside me, but when I am with you, the echo dies."

I just thought this was an interesting conversation to put forth. I know perfectly well that is not considered canon (with a male Exile), but Brianna's views of the Exile - even though he makes the comment that he is no Jedi Knight (either referring to never officially attaining the rank, or perhaps his exile from the Jedi Order) - seem to reflect perfectly those held by Mical.

Just wanted to point that out. However, if the canon Exile turns out to be a Jedi Knight, that's fine with me. It would explain her teaching at the Enclave a little better. Though, I must admit, I always assumed Mical was speaking about sparrs and ragtag instructions and not actuall classes taught by a Knight or Master. --Master Dakari 00:52, 28 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I'd like to point out that the Exile was a General during the Mandalorian Wars. That seems to be a pretty lofty rank for a padawan, don't you think? I believe that most evidence points to the exile being a full Knight, including the robes she wears when approaching the council in the cutscene and the fact that she posessed the high rank of General. The responsibilities placed on her shoulders during the time of the Mandalorian Wars would not be placed on a padawan. In response to the Exile's conversation with Handmaiden, it seems fair that he means that he is not part of the Order, simply because I doubt someone exiled from the Jedi would care much if he/she has a high enough rank in the Order to train someone. ---Ambrose- 14:33, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
 * The Exile was a General, yes. But unlike the Clone Wars where almost every single Jedi fought on the Republic's side; in the Mandalorian Wars only a handfull of Jedi entered. So positions would have been tight. Jasca Ducato Sith Council (Sith campaign)[[Image:SOFD.PNG|20px]] 13:55, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

About your comments, Ambrose, would you consider "Commander" quite a lofty position for a Padawan? If so, then you should know that by one of Palpatine's executive orders, that declared every Jedi Master a "High General", every Jedi Knight a "General", and every Jedi Padawan a "Commander". These titles were legally distributed to every member of the Jedi Order whether they accepted and used them or not. However, like Jasca Ducato said, during the Clone Wars, almost every Jedi was a participant. During the Mandalorian Wars, however, only a few of the Order defied the Council and climbed on board. Revan, who was only a Jedi Knight, was soon given supreme command over the Ruepublic's forces; which authority, according to your mode of thinking, should have gone to some Jedi Master who participated. Master Kae, maybe?

My point being: Revan recognized the skills and abilities of the Exile. Everyone did, even Vrook (who was jealous of the Exile, I dare say). Even HK-47 makes comments on how Revan saw the connections the Exile made with others, be they Force-sensitive or not, and also her strong affinity and attunement with the Force. Whether the Exile was a Padawan or Knight, Revan took advantage of her skills and made her a General.

Come to think of it, an advanced Padawan would - in some way - have a slight advantage over a well-trained soldier because of better discipline and the use of the Force. Look back at some of the back-handed remarks Kreia makes to the Mandalorians for proof of this.--Master Dakari 16:50, 28 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Point taken on both counts. However, on a note slightly more oriented toward the intentions of the developers, you'd think that if they intended to have made the Exile a Padawan they may have vested more time in the story discussing who the Exile's master was. As it stands, I don't think there's proof one way or the other as to the Exile's rank within the Order, though my impression is that she was a Knight. But again, there's no hard proof that I've seen indicating one way or the other. Nor do I think it's of much concern- the Exile's time in the Order before the Mandalorian wars is inconsequential, I think. It's her actions that took place during and after the wars which defined her, as well as her decision to fight in them in the first place. And once she defied the council and took on a sort of "Gray Jedi" status along with the rest of the Jedi who fought in the wars, her rank wouldn't make much of a difference would it? Just some things to think on. ---Ambrose- 18:11, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
 * This is in response to the Handmaiden dialogue above, where one choice is: "I... am not a Jedi Knight. Ask it of Atris." Throughout the game there are constant, numerous times when the Exile can respond with something along the lines of "I am not a Jedi" or "do not call me a Jedi anymore". The reason this specific choice says "Ask it of Atris" in the very next sentence is because of the whole subplot of Atris being the last Jedi versus the Exile being the last Jedi. -BaronGrackle 19:42, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
 * We're not discussing who is the last of the Jedi. We're discussing the Exile's rank when she was fighting in the Mandalorain Wars. Jasca Ducato Sith Council (Sith campaign)[[Image:SOFD.PNG|20px]] 09:38, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, exactly. WE'RE not discussing the last of the Jedi, but the Exile is discussing it when he has the chance to say "I... am not a Jedi Knight. Ask it of Atris." There's usually an option in the Exile's dialogue to make her (or him, in this case) accept her status as no longer being a Jedi, in many different conversations. You know... if it's really this big of an issue, we can just change the introductory sentence to refer to the Exile as a "Jedi"... without the preface Padawan, Knight, Master, or anything. Since she is never called any of these three, it could possibly be one of those things left open-ended... I and a few others have presumed that Knight is the default since no rank is mentioned, but perhaps that's just as presumptuous as presuming her to be Padawan. -BaronGrackle 21:38, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

BaronGrackle, I concurr with your suggestion. During the game, the Exile is never mentioned as being either of the three ranks. People keep alluding to the robes worn during the Exile's trial before the Council, declaring that she wore Jedi Knight robes. I stand to correct that they were Jedi Robes. Not padawan, knight, or master robes - just Jedi robes.

Also, let's keep in mind that the types of robes worn, by any one person, does not establish what rank that Jedi holds within the Order. Brianna wore her mother's robes. Her mother - Arren Kae - happened to be a Jedi Master, so her robes could possibly be considered Jedi Master robes. Simply because Brianna was wearing them, does this make her a Jedi Master? I hope none of you would say, "Yes".

Again, I second the idea to change the opening phrase to say, simply, "Jedi" with the ranking of such left out. Since it is never specifically mentioned in-game what position the Exile held within the Order before being exiled, it is not our place, as a source of grounded information, to assume one way or the other.--Master Dakari 01:36, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I concur with leaving the rank out of the article. It shall be done. Jasca Ducato Sith Council (Sith campaign)[[Image:SOFD.PNG|20px]] 08:01, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Agreed here. ---Ambrose- 12:24, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
 * When asking Kreia about the Mandalorians wars "But only some Jedi Knights answered the call...like I did." Coridan 21:38, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

When Kreia offers the Exile the three Jedi Master/Sith Lord classes, usually only a Knight would've been offered those choices. If the Exile was a Padawan, Keria would've had to train her to a Knight before she could even get to such a high staus, official or not. Jedi Striker 17:20, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Even if that was the case Strkier, it doesn't matter. Canon has not told us what rank the Exile was and so it shall be left out of the article. Jasca Ducato Sith Council (Sith campaign)[[Image:SOFD.PNG|20px]] 09:23, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I almost hate to post this, but it seems relevant:

Unfortunately, this excerpt does not help much as the Jedi Exile probably earned the rank of Jedi Knight during the war.– 09:40, 1 September 2006 (UTC) ''Apathy is death. Apathy is death. Bee bee beep tweet tweet! Apathy is death. Apathy is death.'' -BaronGrackle 13:36, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
 * It confirms the only known rank for the Exile was Padawan. And i dubt she was promoted during the war because she went against the wishes of the Council. They wouldn't reward someone for disobeying them would they (well, not these ones at least). Jasca Ducato Sith Council (Sith campaign)[[Image:SOFD.PNG|20px]] 10:16, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Overseen by Baas? Wasn't he, like, killed by Exar Kun? - Sikon (Vacation) 11:15, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Probs a type. It was overseen by Baas, before he was killed. Jasca Ducato Sith Council (Sith campaign)[[Image:SOFD.PNG|20px]] 11:46, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, bah. Padawan it is, then, I suppose, wrung from a website strung with typos. Even with the fact that Vodo-Siosk Baas was killed by Exar Kun, and the Exile was hardly the "single student" who joined Revan alone (as we see both in the Korriban vision and countless times in dialogue) the word is still as unmistakable as "heroine". Much thanks, Sentry; no need for another Exile controversy I suppose. :-) -BaronGrackle 14:04, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Well hang on a second, there's conflicting evidence here. Didn't anyone else read what Coridan wrote? "When asking Kreia about the Mandalorians wars "But only some Jedi Knights answered the call...like I did." Coridan 21:38, 30 August 2006 (UTC)". Again, I think it should be left out. I don't think there was considerable thought put into the Exile's rank when the game was being developed, since we can clearly see how it could be either one, and perhaps that indicates that it should be left out altogether. --Ambrose 16:23 1 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't mind either way. But Leland Chee has said that the Chronicles are canon, despite the number of mistakes they have. Any information in them that is contradicoty is automatically de-canonised, but the rest is Canon. The Exile is a padawna. Jasca Ducato Sith Council (Sith campaign)[[Image:SOFD.PNG|20px]] 16:41, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree that the Exile's rank should be left out. If you remember, the 'Chronicles' also state that Revan was a 'Jedi Master', which was plainly not true. I wouldn't trust the accuracy of the excerpt above as the Chronicles are full of minor inaccuracies and inconsistencies with the established continuity of the games. KOTOR II heavily implies that the Exile was a Jedi Knight during the war, but, as I said above, we simply cannot confirm if or when she reached that rank.– 21:00, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
 * The situation is different from Revan, since the only canonical source to definitely mention Exile's rank says "Padawan". On the other hand, Revan is quite often explicitly mentioned in both games to be a Knight. - Sikon (Vacation) 02:55, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
 * And, since i have previously pointed out. The Chronicles are canon in those respects where they do not contradict something already laid out (i.e. Revan being a master), but no other source says the Exile was a Knight or anything like that; thus she's a padawan. Jasca Ducato Sith Council (Sith campaign)[[Image:SOFD.PNG|20px]] 08:04, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't know. So if the Chronicles are only canon if they don't contradict a higher level, then they are, more or less, S-canon? It's hard to tell if there's a contradiction with the (C-canon) game. The line "only some Jedi Knights answered the call... like I did" could be telling, but it does not necessarily mean what it seems. Bao-Dur could very well say: "Only some Jedi Knights fought in the Mandalorian War... like I did", since the "like" describes the fighting. I just don't know.

AHHHHH! I wish some fo these writers would actually do research before publishing something and making then it be made canon... even with all of its discrepancies! This rant is about the Chronicles. While some parts help, others throw you for a loop, like what I am about to show you. Yes, the Chronicles-quote above is about the Jedi Exile and can be found under Part IX: Darth Revan Rising. But this one is from the Chronicles well, as can be found under Part X: Proving Grounds: The one from Part IX says that the Jedi Exile is a Padawan at Dantooine, but still disobeys Atris in order to go fight in the Mandalorian War. Part X later states that the Jedi Exile was a Knight when the Mandalorians were defeated, and when returning to face her judgement. My only conclusion is that it is implied, even while disobeying Atris, the Jedi Exile proved her worth as a Jedi and was elevated to the rank of Jedi Knight sometime during the Mandalorian War. The war did last about 4 years, and one bit of the Chronicles says that even the Jedi Council viewed Revan as a hero, thought unbeknownst to them he was delving deeper and deeper into the Sith teachings he found at Malachor V. Well, that's just my say on it.
 * "A lone Jedi Knight, who had journeyed earlier to fight alongside Revan, forsakes him after the surrender of the Mandalorians - and the apparent loss of the Knight's connection to the Force during the battle - and journeys back to the Old Republic, determined not to fight any longer. The Knight is exiled by the Jedi Order, and the Knight's lightsaber is removed.  Meanwhile, Darth Revan... "

I guess it is safe to assume, as it is implied in the Chronicles, that the Exile was Knighted sometime during the Mandalorian War. The Council would not have held an earned title from a Jedi simply for the fact that they followed Revan to battle the Mandalorians. There are Jedi who defy the Council's wishes all throughout the Galaxy's history, but they are still members (and sometimes highly respected ones) of the Order just as the next Jedi is. Anyone remember Dooku or Qui-Gon? Also keep in mind that the Jedi Order only hated Revan and all those who followed him after the incident at Malachor V. And their feelings were only reinforced when Revan returned as Dark Lord of the Sith, with many of the Jedi who served him as Sith themselves. But before this, they were not seen as castaways and cut-offs, just misguided.--Master Dakari 03:40, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
 * The problem with that is that almost every species in the galaxies generalise the Jedi as Jedi Knights, its just a general name. For example, when Malak was Revan's apprentice he was likely called a Sith Lord by the peoples of the Republic. At least with the title padawan it isnt generalised. Jasca Ducato Sith Council (Sith campaign)[[Image:SOFD.PNG|20px]] 14:18, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree that the galaxy-at-large uses the title "Jedi Knight" as a generalized term they apply to all in the order, but that just doesn't seem to be what is meant by the article. If it was written from the view-point of the galaxy, then it would not have differentiated from the different ranks as it has throughout all the articles. But as seen in the article on IX compared with one on X, it puts a specific emphasis on what rank that one Jedi held at the time these seperate events took place. It makes clear that the Exile was a Padawan when she disobeyed Atris and went to follow Revan, and that she was Knight when she returned after Malachor V, not willing to fight any longer, to face her trial.--Master Dakari 19:12, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Tell me, she went to war against the wishes of the Jedi Council, correct? SO why would they promote her to the rank of Knight, than exile her for that? It makes no sense. Jasca Ducato Sith Council (Sith campaign)[[Image:SOFD.PNG|20px]] 09:42, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
 * There have been Jedi who have promoted themselves remember, it was frowned apon but the exile was already being judged badly so...Jedi Dude 10:06, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Jasca Ducato, remember that the Jedi who followed Revan were a splinter group, a rebellious faction that included a number of Jedi Masters. It is entirely possible that they rapidly promoted talented padawans during the war with little ceremony and without the approval of the Jedi Council.– 21:37, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

First, whoever wrote my name wrong, thanks a lot! Just kidding, hahaha. Second, I have played the game numerous times and none of the characters mention at all that the Exile is a Padawan. Nor does it mention that she was a Padawan before, during, and after (KOTOR II) the Mandalorian Wars. Where does it mention in the game and what's the exact quote? Jedi Striker 11:51, 5 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Jedi Striker, go here: []. Read the second paragraph under Part IX: Darth Revan Rising and then the third paragraph under Part X: Proving Grounds. These two passages are canonical evidence that the Jedi Exile was a Padawan when joining Revan to fight the Mandalorians, and then a Knight when she finally returned after Malachor V, only to be exiled. As discussed above, the Chronicles (which are copied directly from LucasArt's KotOR II website) are considered canon; unless in the times that it contradicts other facts that have already been established in other arenas... such as Revan being a Jedi Master. In which cases, you either overlook them or correct them in your head and move along. :) --Master Dakari 02:30, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Well that does answer my question, I guess. But did Revan and Malak have the authority to make the Exile a Knight?  Did one of the Jedi Masters that followed Revan give her the rank?  Or did she assume the rank?  Thanks for that link, by the way!  --Jedi Striker 02:08, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
 * No one knows how the Exile reached the rank of Jedi Knight because no source explicitly states what happened.– 06:21, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Exactly. We only know that it happened sometime during the Mandalorian War. But when it comes to exactly when, how, or by whom, we are left in the dark. I would stress that it was a legitimate Knighting. The Jedi who followed Revan - even Revan and Malak themselves - were not viewed as outcasts... only headstrong and misguided. But they were still full-fledged members of the Jedi Order. The were only seen as seperate from the Order after Malachor V. Until Revan returned from the Outer Rim as Dark Lord of the Sith, he was held as a hero, even by the Jedi Council. So, I would say that the Exile had a legitimate Knighting; being that she was still a member of the Order until her exile from it. But without any sources telling us the circumstances of the situation, it is better left unassumed. It is safe to say she became a Jedi Knight during the Mandalorian Wars; but it is not safe to say exactly when, how, or by whom the rank was given.--Master Dakari 14:58, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Only the Jedi COuncil can knight a Padawan, if Revan or Malak did, it would have been rejected as a knight by the Council until they knighted her, so she is only a Padawan, though she clearly deserves the title of Jedi Knight if not Jedi Master, but she isn't. RushinSundaws 15:07, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
 * You are putting words into our mouths that simply aren't there. Read what is in bold in my last post. We are not saying that we know who Knighted the Exile. To do so would be assuming something that we just don't know. We know that she was Knighted sometime during the Mandalorian Wars, but that's all we know. It's not our place to establish or deny canon; but to enforce it on this site is.--Master Dakari 18:16, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Whoever wrote the new stuff about the Exile's rank in the beginning is now my hero, hahaha. --Jedi Striker 01:18, 8 September 2006 (UTC) "&hellip;the other padawans&hellip;"
 * Where did anyone find this It is safe to say she became a Jedi Knight during the Mandalorian Wars; but it is not safe to say exactly when, how, or by whom the rank was given. I've never seen this anywere, I'm gonna say its fanon.  And Atris did believe that those who left for the Mandalorian Wars were outcasts and had fallen to the Dark Side. Also during the Exiles trial, the Masters were clearly worried about Revan a year or so before he came back as the Dark Lord of the Sith, so they did not trust Revan; and more than likely considered him a fallen Jedi even before he proved he was. RushinSundaws 15:32, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Finally, someone has seen the light. The Exile would never have been promoted to the rank of Jedi Knight. It just wouldn't have happened! She disobeyed the Jedi Order so they're not going to reward her are they? Jasca Ducato Sith Council (Sith campaign)[[Image:SOFD.PNG|20px]] 18:21, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Why does everyone in this discussion only read what they write, Jasca as it has been said we never said the order rewarded here, there have been Jedi who have giving themself the rank of knight and master! The council may have not giving her the status of knight but she might of decided herself after all when know that you are a knight, a knight you are (somethin like that)Medstar Jedi Dude 18:25, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, I'm also of the opinion that the Council would never had made her a Knight after she left for the Mandalorian War. My theory is that these lousy Chronicles aren't paying much attention to other sources, and they're not even paying much attention to themselves. But, since they explicitly say that she was a Padawan before leaving, and they also explicitly say that she was a Knight upon returning and being exiled, there are no provable contradictions. This is what we currently have to work with. :-) -BaronGrackle 22:14, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Well that's just frickin' fantastic. Some poorly written article, riddled with inconsistencies, and absolute lack of respect for the original source material is now fully embraced as canon, and we're expected to just over look the glaring mistakes and accept the rest that sounds remotely plausible. I can't wait for another Chronicles to say that the Exile is actually two Jawas in a woman costume, and just finish destroying the storyline already. Really though, why cant we just balance these articles a little with common sense?Master Kavar 08:51, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Please, your not going to rant about gender, cos we've really had enough of that . Canon's canon. Game mechanics my friend, game mechanics. Jedi Dude 17:59, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I apologize for ranting, but I wasn't complaining about the Exile's canon gender, but the reasoning behind making her a Padawan instead of a Jedi Knight. The only article that reffers to her as such, has such an obvious and glaring contradiction (citing a Jedi on Dantooine who's been dead 40 years?!), and yet that one point is accepted as canon while the rest is ignored? That makes no sense.Master Kavar 19:26, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Relax, if you had read this entire section, you would know that the Chronicles also refer to the Exile as a Jedi Knight at a later point. As BaronGrackle stated above, that is what we have to work with. She was a padawan before the war and a Knight afterwards. The details are entirely unknown at this point.– 19:40, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
 * If the Exile is a knight, how come it got changed? Also, there is only one way to prove the Exile's rank before she was exiled.  If anyone can find a specific line in the game where it states she's a Padawan, then I think that will prove it all.--Jedi Striker 14:15, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

- Vrook Lamar in hologram

This is what Vrook Lamar says on the holotransmission if the Exile chooses to talk to the droid on Dantooine. There's your proof. Jasca Ducato 20:36, 13 September 2006 (UTC) I asked him if he will be calrifying it with Leland Chee, or if I should contact him to get it clarified. I'm waiting for a reply to that. But so far, it seems that the official stance might be that she was - in fact - Knighted sometime during her involvement in the Mandalorian War and before her exile from the Order. ...Also note that she, and almost all of the Jedi who were involved in the War were still full-fledged Jedi. The Exile's exile was just that, an abolishion of her ties to the Jedi Order; and because of that, the Council's actions then imply that - before her sentencing - they still considered the Jedi Exile a member of the Order. Remember, also, that Mical even went so far as to say that the Council couldn't have truly forced the Exile to accept their judgement; that the sentencing of exile is only as valid as the Jedi being punished is willing to accept it to be.--Master Dakari 02:42, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, in the chronicles it refers to her as a knight, so were still stuck Jedi Dude 20:54, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
 * In any case, we have no way of knowing when that recording was made. Every Jedi was once a padawan, so it doesn't prove anything one way or another.– 21:17, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Jasca Ducato, Vrook did say that in the game... I will not argue that. But, does that - in any way - displace what is found in the Chronicles? No. Why, you might ask? Well, because the Chronicles specifically say that she was a Padawan when she left Dantooin to fight in the war. To say that she became a Knight sometime during the war does not, in any way, contradict what Vrook says. How so? Because Vrook is saying this before she left Dantooine... possibly even years prior. Trust me, I used to be a promoter of the "Padawan Hypothesis". That was until I read the Chronicles. Since her rank at the time of the Mandalorian Wars, her exile, or even her adventures during the game are never plainly provided...then the Chronicles serve as our only source. That being said; it is not our place to argue that she wasn't a Knight simply because the specifics of her Knighting are not known. That is not very strong ground to stand on. Unless some concrete evidence is provided to the contrary, then she was, in fact, a Jedi Knight. Using the thought process as displayed by some, let me give this example: We don't know how, when, or by whom Arca Jeth was Knighted do we? And because we don't, are we going to argue that he was never truly a Jedi Knight? Sure, they SAY he was a Jedi Master, but how do you know for sure? They better let us know exactly what happened, step-by-step, or else it's not canon! Do we see the picture, people?--Master Dakari 00:46, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
 * What we need is someone to ask Leland Chee over on the forums, maybe that'll sort this out. Jasca Ducato 14:31, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I sent a PM to Dan Wallace yesterday and am waiting for a reply. So, maybe we'll know soon.--Master Dakari 16:31, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Dan Wallace replied to my question on the rank of the Jedi Exile before her exile from the Jedi Order. This a copy and paste of his PM to me: "Now, under "Part IX: Darth Revan Rising" the Chronicles say that the Exile was a Padawan when she left to fight in the Mandalorian Wars. Then, under "Part X: Proving Grounds" they say she is a Jedi Knight who lost her connection to the Force and is no longer willing to fight. If, as you say, Leland Chee has said that this text is canon only so much as it doesn't contradict existing material, then I'd have to agree with you that it implies the Exile achieved the rank of Knight. However, I think it'd still be worth clarifying with Leland! Dan"

Name and Face
-- Redemption Talk 16:59, 27 August 2006 (UTC) appearance that is canonical? DAWUSS 16:45, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Does anyone know if a name for her is being considerd, and why does her face have to be obscured? If we were to vote on a face. I think the blond with the Samantha Carter hairstyle looked sexy.
 * I agree with redemption the blond with the Samantha Carter hairstyle does look cool.I used that face for my exile, britney skywalker.(baccaradarkness) 13:54, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Because it wouldn't be considered canon. We don't decide what's canon. -- Redemption Talk [[Image:Oldrepublic.jpg|15px]] 18:23, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
 * We can't vote on her face, the public don't decide what names and apperances are giving, thats not canon at all Jedi Dude 18:27, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
 * We shouldn't have the picture then. It's saying that the Exile was fighting a floating lightsaber at that exact position facing that exact direction. MPK 00:30, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I was just saying. Does LFL have any intention on giving her a name and an
 * Probably not. Anyways, something like Image:Manyfacesofrevan.jpg would probably be good. -LtNOWIS 00:42, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I think we should put a vote for her face... Let's just say the appearance would be conjectural, and as long as we have a note of it somewhere, it should be OK. Heck we have conjectural titles all over the place! Plus, having the face obscured looks awkward IMO DAWUSS 00:44, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, I am against the vote on the face. Perhaps a consensus track so people can vote whether or not to have a face should precede any vote on the actual face. If we remove the image, we must also remove the image of Jaden Korr. I don't think that is the best way to go. Besides, we know from the trial footage of the Exile that at some point she did wear Jedi Knight robes and wielded a cyan lightsaber, so the image is somewhat accurate- although I see your point. Atarumaster88 14:56, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
 * The many faces thing would be could with a female template in the gender section, however there cannot be a vote for her apperance we do not decide what is canon, its not conjectural having a false picture, not at all. The image is the best we can do and theres already an extensive discussion about the image further up. Jedi Dude 15:08, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
 * What if we use the Exile in the space suit (at Peragus) as the image? Everything's covered up in that. Face too. DAWUSS 16:28, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Because "it'd look awkward" and silly. -- Redemption Talk [[Image:Oldrepublic.jpg|15px]] 16:43, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
 * No more awkward and silly than we already have.
 * Then there's no point in changing it. - Redemption Talk [[Image:Oldrepublic.jpg|15px]] 16:59, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
 * (Points to my post a few lines up)MPK 18:34, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Well if the main page says she is known only by her nickname, then just saying that suggests that at sometime were supposed to know her real name. Otherwise why call the "Jedi Exile" a nickname?
 * Because she is a RPG character whose name is decided by the player.– 20:19, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
 * If I'm not mistaken I think Leeland CHee said that a name was being condidered. He said this back when he mentiond that they were going to try to make the Exile female. I just can't find the link.
 * Quite the contrary I'm afraid: – 20:19, 23 August 2006 (UTC)


 * For those who cannot/do not read the note at the top, please reference the archive. The topic about the picture was covered in great detail.  Here we go again. 21:43, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
 * My belief is that LucasArts or StarWars.com or one of the sites for the KOTOR games, after the released canonical ending, should have allowed for us, the fans, to pick the Exile and Revan's appearance and in the case of the Exile, possibly get to select her lightsaber color.RushinSundaws 15:10, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Protection
Do we still need this article to be protected? DAWUSS 13:41, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Defintely yes. There are still users who will change it to male. NKSCF 02:23, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

It doesn't really matter. If someone vandalizes it then we just revert it. MPK 14:42, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

They're still at it? It's been over a month already, just ban their adresses. Xepeyon 19:02, 10 September 2006 (UTC)


 * They are blocked, they just keep returning with different names and IPs. -- I need a name 19:18, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

It's kinda sad that someone is trying to meddle with established SW canon.... Xenten 20:20, 12 September 2006

Isn't there someway to ban the page from new users or something? Xepeyon 17:28, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Light side minor details
Yes, I agree that she's a female who was a heroine that destroyed malachor, but does anyone have proof that every decision the "Exile" made was light? I mean, yes, big things like Mira joining the party are fine with me, but is there any proof that, for example, she put Samhan the Duro under arrest? It seems that every lightside decision is now accepted as canon, except as far as I can tell, a Gray Jedi exile can choose to destroy malachor, technically becoming a heroine also. I'm asking whether or not all the lightside decisions should be considered canon or remain ambiguous until the New Essential Guide to KOTOR, or whatever, comes out. So, tell me your opinions. Gotoisevil 19:44, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Damn straight, man. Furthermore, whats the business with all this machismo regarding the Exile being female? For God's sake, Star Wars needs more strong female characters; characters like Leia, Ventress and Aayla Secura. I was %100 devastated when, canonically, Revan was revealed to be a male. Oh, and the Exile didn't have to make every decision 'right'.

Cut off from the Force?
What does it mean when it said she cut herself off from the Force? Does it mean that she decided not to use it anymore, or did she do something so that she couldn't use it anymore? As of now, no one really knows if or when she was able to recover her powers.– 22:22, 24 September 2006 (UTC) Well, in the game she was able to use the force (or at least force powers) but all the Jedi Masters still thought she was unconnected to it.
 * She couldn't use it anymore.– 21:47, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, she cut her own connection off from the force to where she could not use it anymore. She did so because of the force echo of all the people who were killed in the final battle of the Mandalorian War at Malachor V.  This created a force wound in which if Malachor V wasn't destroyed, the echo could spread and kill all the Jedi and the force itself.  She cut her connection off in order to live.  It would have killed her had she not.  And she got reconnected to the force again after she met Kreia on the Peragus-II Mining Facility.  Kreia was able to establish a force link with her, giving her force abilities again, starting with Force Precognition.  But anyway, she literally CUT herself from the force for around 10 years (from the end of the Mandalorian War to the events of KotOR II).  By the end of the events of KotOR II when the Sith Triumverate (Darths Nihilus, Sion, and Traya) and Malachor V were destroyed, the exile had fully re-established her connection with the force (supposedly) and destroyed the force wound. --Peytonio 01:43, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
 * She cut herself off from the Force, but she did not necessarily intend to do so (which explains why the Exile remains confused as to how she lost her powers). As for getting reconnected to the Force, I am not sure that she has been reconnected. Some dialog seems to imply that she was simply leaching power from those around her throughout KotOR:TSL.– 02:31, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, I think the entire incident with Darth Nihilus is evidence that she was not just simply reconnected with the Force, that some sort of emptiness was still within her. But she could use the Force anyway. Like the best of both worlds, huh? -BaronGrackle 02:35, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Heh, thanks. So when that happens, it's not necessarily permanent?
 * The Exile was never actually cut off from the Force as Ulic Qel-Droma was. She was just deafened to it. As I wrote for the Mandalorian Wars article:

Female Exile truly canon?
I'm aware of what the New Essential Guide to Droids says. But it was written by the same person who in the New Essential Chronology referred to Kreia and Traya as seperate characters (calling Kreia 'Darth Kreia'). How much credibility could the book be given? And has anyone from Obsidian, Lucasfilm, or any other fully official and credible source officially stated that the Exile is a female?
 * Lucasfilm already stated they had decided it was female, but they were waiting to canonize it in the soonest published sourcebook. And so it was. Besides, Dan admitted he made a mistake with certain things in the NEC, the female's gender wasn't a mistake. --Sauron18 07:05, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
 * There are, by the way, no more "fully official" sources. Everything published with the Star Wars logo by any license holder and without an Infinites stamp is equally canon. Charlii 08:06, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Indeed.--Sauron18 08:23, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
 * In a way, Kreia and Traya are different people, at least in the way they display it. I know that Kreia adopted the name Darth Traya, Lady of Betrayal, when she discovered the Trayus academy, but Kreia and Traya can be viewed as being different.  Kreia was the Jedi Master who taugh many jedi, including Revan, and was exiled from the council because so many of her pupils had fallen to the dark side.  She became Darth Traya after she searched for what corrupted her students, which corrupter her as well (the Trayus Academy findings).  Then she was betrayed/exiled from the Sith Triumverate for a time.  Kreia acts more as a mentor who stresses the teaching of the Grey (Gray) Jedi.  She focuses on preventing one's fall to the dark side but not showing countless acts of mercy to others in order to make sure that they no become weak.  Her true side, Darth Traya, may be more of a Grey Jedi than a Sith Lady (female equivalent to Sith Lord) focuses solely on destroying the force, as she extremely hates it.  While Kreia is manipulative, Traya (which is Kreia....) is even more manipulative, since we see who she really is.  I can understand why she is referred to as 2 different people.  Both sides differ pretty adequately. --Peytonio 01:53, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Sounds a lot like Anakin and Vader. --Jedi Striker 12:01, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes shes a she..lol nuff said, and i agree with the Anakin vader thing except she was aware of her actions more, she was truely dedicated to her goal, Vader had the light within himself to turn back Jedi Dude 16:04, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Should we hold a vote whether Kreia and Traya's articles should be separated, like Anakin and Vader? - Sikon 18:14, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

uh what does this have to do with the exile? mabey the vote should go on kreia's page?72.230.40.84 18:39, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Us Wookieepedians reserve the right to digress horribly at times. --Imp 18:40, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
 * No were not spilting the articles and this discussion ends here...as this has nthing to do witht the exile. Jedi Dude 21:29, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
 * the exile is male damn it! YOU LOSE JEDI DUDE, YOUR A COMPLETE IDIOT!
 * It'd be so nice if people who can't accept canon, whether they like it or not, be wiped from the face of the Earth. -- Redemption Talk [[Image:Oldrepublic.jpg|15px]] 00:51, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Hmmm, female you mean? An idiot, im afraid not. And really If you really let something like this bother you so much your the one who loses. Jedi Dude 13:18, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I gave you a cooldown 24-hour ban for a personal attack. Next time, it will be stricter. - Sikon 15:43, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Can someone just send an e-mail to Leland Chee asking him to confirm what the book said? This would prevent anyone from saying the book is wrong or insulting those who stick by unpopular cannon.
 * Erm, no need. It doesn't matter if the canon is unpopular, it's canon. Jasca Ducato Sith Council (Sith campaign) 07:52, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

But confirming it with Leland Chee will prevent anyone from denying it, as they do now.
 * Theres no need to bother Chee with this, the exile is female and even if it does get confirmed people will complain, its what vandals do. Jedi Dude 18:40, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Why not bother Chee with this? Dealing with cannon is his job. And not all people who deny it are vandals, they just don't like it and so try to argue the book may be wrong. Confirmation from Chee will force them to accept that it was not a mistake.
 * In which they will argue that "Chee has no right to deem anything canon himself." Blah, blah, blah. People are just stubborn. You can bother him with it but it's not like he is going to say anything we don't know. -- Redemption Talk [[Image:Oldrepublic.jpg|15px]] 22:31, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
 * And no they won't be forced to accept anythin, their just slander him for saying she's a she, some people are never happy. Jedi Dude 22:38, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

We won't be asking Chee his opinion on the Exiles gender. We will be asking a Lucasfilm official to confirm cannon. Anyone who argues after that is a lost cause, but clearing up any doubts about the books information certainly can't hurt.
 * You keep responding, but I think the point is escaping you. For example, we could also bother George Lucas with things like, "Is it really canon that Anakin was born on Tatooine?" but there's no purpose to. The reason it's in the movies is BECAUSE it went through, or was even initiated, by Lucas himself. The Exile being female was one of Chee's mini-crusades, as we see in the Tastytaste quotes above, and he succeeded in putting it in published material. He would be the last person to deny the Exile's femininity. -BaronGrackle 22:50, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Why are you acting like this is a big deal? Sending an email isn't that hard. Unless you can find a reason not to I don't think you should complain about it.
 * Listen, there is a reason not to, we know its canon theres no need to bother anyone, if you want to email someone to confirm what we know do so don't ask of us to do it, we accept the exile's gender. Whatever happens people will never be happy, maybe becasue there sexist maybe not, this conversation is over unless theres something usefull you want to say. Jedi Dude 13:43, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

There are a lot of strange people at this site, and most of them keep telling me something along the lines of "shut up". I will email him if you want. Please give me Leland Chee's email, cause I can't find it. Why does the subject of the Exile's gender turn people nasty? P.S. You spelt "because" wrong


 * I can't give you his email address (I personally don't have it, and even if I did, I wouldn't because it could/would become a privacy issue if it was posted here). If you want to talk to Leland Chee, there is an official thread on the starwars.com forums where he answers questions of this nature. If you have a StarWars.com forum account, you can ask him about the Exile in this thread.  StarNeptune Talk to me! 07:24, 14 October 2006 (UTC)


 * "Why does the subject of the Exile's gender turn people nasty?" Generally because the subject of the Exile's gender turns people disbelieving, obstinate, confrontational, dismissive of official sources, and yes, nasty. Anonymous user, why don't you question Revan's canonical masculinity? Why do you not demand hard evidence from numerous sources that Jaden Korr is indeed male? With all the followers of Aayla Secura, Padmé Amidala, and Leia's golden bikini, you'd think male fanboys would be more receptive to a young heroine in the games. P.S. You spelt "because" wrong. And "e-mail" has a hyphen. It's kind of mean to correct tidbits of people's grammar and spelling in the midst of an argument. :-( -BaronGrackle 08:54, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
 * And you spelled "spelled" incorrectly according to US spelling. ;) - Sikon 10:04, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Hmmm its only a spelling and anyway i wouldn't mind my spelling being rubbish since my general point is stil clear and correct. Unlike yours, which for all your nagging hasn't come any further than saying you want to email Chee. If you want to do so but I don't see why your making such a big deal out of something if you accept her gender Jedi Dude 10:43, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, I'm Canadian and "spelt" is a word according to my dictionary. And email has been spelt like that on this page before, so why would I bother to add a hypen if no one else does? But besides that, I see nothing wrong with asking questions. The "accept it or die" attitude at this site was a little weird and many people were suspicious that I had some ulterior motive. I'll ask Chee. And now I'll go.

Visas romance
I think this should be moved to Visas' article (in the way the male Exile's romance with Brianna is), rather than have it be here, since it's an alternate storyline under a largely canonical heading. Eowynjedi 02:03, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

"We all have our heroes. And when we watch them fall, we die inside. He made a choice once&hellip; and I did not. The day we judged him, I stood in the chamber, and he was so right. He was so certain of it, [that] I doubted myself."
 * It's under the "Behind the Scenes" heading, which is non-necessarily-canonical. We have done the same thing with the Revan article. -BaronGrackle 02:23, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Oh, and also: all of the Romances are non-necessarily-canonical. After all, it is not possible for the Exile to have more influence with both Atton and Mical, and it is entirely possible that she had no romance with either. -BaronGrackle 02:26, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm the one who wrote the Visas section under romances; I somewhat agree with you Eowynjedi, about adding too much alternative non-canon stuff to the Exile's page. But since the idea of a supplemental non-canon Exile page wasn't well recieved, I added it last under the possible romances. I'll probably get around to adding Brianna and Atris as well when I get more time, since nobody has done so yet. Master Kavar 04:45, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Aye, the lack of Brianna was what I was curious about. I'll add Atris' section, since it's short and I don't have the time to write about Brianna, sadly. Eowynjedi 20:21, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeah, about the Atris romance... I'm not convinced. Unless I'm forgetting something, all we have is that Atris tortured the Handmaiden, and that may or may not have been out of jealousy. All the stuff about Atris caring for the Exile, about Atris seeing the Exile as a hero(oine), about her feelings for the Exile contributing to her own fall... that is ALL present when the Exile is female. Is there a key line or dialogue that I'm forgetting? -BaronGrackle 22:01, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
 * As always, he will do as he wills, and the galaxy…and the feelings of others…can burn for all he cares. ~Atris                                     She loved you, you know. She almost followed you into the Mandalorian Wars, though it would have betrayed everything she believed...How does it feel to inspire such love? A love that shatters the spirits of others across the surface of Malachor? ~ Darth Traya
 * Pretty strong endorsement if you ask me, especially since all of the male/female lines are different.
 * Indeed! When does Kreia say this? -BaronGrackle 17:06, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I remember that quote, but I can't recall when it pops up in the game. For the time being, this quote can be used to introduce her romance section:

- Atris – 23:46, 9 October 2006 (UTC) "I will do nothing – except tell you that I am sorry. I did not realize that the Mandalorian Wars would hurt others that had known me... and cared for me."
 * That very quote is actually what turns me away from the theory, as Atris also speaks it when the Exile is female (substituting the "he"s for "she"s, so it's not just lazy programming). And this other potential quote, after the Atris battle:

- The Exile

And this one, before the final battle: "She loved you, you know, as one loves a champion. You were all that she could not be [...] Yes... it is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built. More echoes, travelling through the Force."

- Darth Traya

...can also appear whether the Exile is male or female. This is the main reason why I ask where those above two quotes appear in the game; the statement that "all of the male/female lines are different" is a misconception, but it may be that some of the lines are different. If Kreia says her line during one of her many dialogue trees, then it'll be difficult to find&mdash;but I'm curious as to whether she also says it for a female Exile. As for the Atris quote, it sounds like something that might be said in a reaction cutscene, either when the Handmaiden flees or gets trained as a Jedi. If that's the case, then it would certainly only apply to a male Exile. -BaronGrackle 02:45, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Locked
I'm sorry, but I have locked the Exile's page. If one of the other admins wants to unlock it, go ahead. But I am sick of this! -- SFH 01:02, 7 October 2006 (UTC) SHUTUP it doesnt matter YOU GET TO CHOOSE the sex get over it i had him male you may have had the exile a woman its a GAME and besides...if KotOR 3 comes out you ill prob get to choose anyway just like REVAN in KotOR '' Bet you say the exact samething about Revan, right?-- Redemption Talk 01:55, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Err...might want to fix the template so it reflects the current status. -- Redemption Talk [[Image:Oldrepublic.jpg|15px]] 01:07, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Thank you. And I apologize for losing my temper. We just need to find someway to restrict this guy's ability to move around. -- SFH 01:09, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I have no qualms with locking the page. Those juvenile idiots just will not stop changing it. I say keep the page locked. Let only certain people change it if the need arises, because you know as soon as you unlock it, it will be vandalized immediately. :/ --Scy Storm 09:10, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
 * ''The New Essential Guide to Droids describes the Exile as a "heroine", making the female Exile canonical. Anyone that changes the gender of the Exile on the main article page WILL be banned for vandalism and trolling. Also, this page is not the place to whine or complain that the Exile should be male. If you want to discuss that, there are many online forums you can go to to vent your frustration. Failure to do so will result in a cooldown ban.
 * It's too bad, but I guess it had to be done. The vandalism was just really getting out of hand. So what do we do if we want to make further contributions to the article; post them here first and have someone with access make the change? Or can permission be handed out to trusted editors? Master Kavar 14:02, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Your have to apply for it be added I think, it really is starting to too much Jedi Dude 18:24, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
 * "Trusted editors"? Trusted by whom? How do you define trust? Any non-default restrictions must be temporary. We cannot permanently protect an article, that would be contrary to the very idea of a wiki. - Sikon 19:14, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Indeed it is, but vandalising an article and going against the rules is also against the idea of a wiki isn't it? --Petiflo 19:42, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
 * By "trusted editors" Sikon, I meant members of the community who aren't new, and aren't likely to vandalise the page because they actually care whether their account is banned or not. Take it easy, it was just a question. Master Kavar 20:16, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Jedi Exile's page
Wouldn't it be better to just change Exiles page to make gender unclear? If you just change all of the "she" and "her" to "the Exile", and included a note explaining the Exile is cannonly considered female, it would still work and keep a lot of people from whining.
 * No. Exile is female. No need to change anything just because some whiny fans are getting their pants in a bundle. If we'd do that to this, then Revan and Jaden get the same treatment. End of story. -- Redemption Talk [[Image:Oldrepublic.jpg|15px]] 21:52, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

As far as I can tell, those people who insist on calling the Exile female are not that different from those that insist on calling the Exile a guy. A compromise in this area wouldn't hurt the information on the page and would prevent people from spreading rumors about the reliability of wookieepedia's information.
 * ....okay...can someone please tell me what makes The New Essential Guide to Droids an unreliable source of canon? It is released by LucasBooks and by the same company that made the New Essential Chronology....which is what made Jaden a male and confirmed Revans masculinity. If NEGD is not canon, then neither is the Chronology. -- Redemption Talk [[Image:Oldrepublic.jpg|15px]] 22:11, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
 * No, these guys are just closet movie purists. They don't understand Star Wars canon, and they don't want to because it doesn't go with what they want. -- SFH 22:13, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

The New Essential Guide to Droids could be mistaken. It has happened before and will happen again. And besides who would announce the Exiles gender in a book about droids?
 * Does it matter if it's about droids? No. Give it up. -- Redemption Talk [[Image:Oldrepublic.jpg|15px]] 22:24, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Just ignore him. His contributions say that the only thing he's editted is this page. I'm seriously considering blocking him. -- SFH 22:27, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Wouldn't it just be easier to block all edits to this page except to registered users? -- Redemption Talk [[Image:Oldrepublic.jpg|15px]] 22:28, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Starneptune thought about it. You know what? If one of the other admins supports it, I'll do it. -- SFH 22:30, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

How is it fair to dismiss an idea just because you do not agree with it? I have not insulted anyone nor have I screamed that the Exile is male. I think this is a very rude way to treat someone who just wanted to present his idea online.
 * I think that it is time to stop feeding the troll. It is fairly obvious that 70.71.144.106 is not listening to our arguments and is creating nonsensical objections just to keep this mindless debate raging.– 22:36, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
 * You're refusing to accept our rules regarding canon. Why should we give you the same courtesy? You know what? I'm locking this page to anons. -- SFH
 * Are you sure that's a good idea? We'll probably end up with idiots with names like 'Darth Nihilus raped Visas Marr' spamming the page. --  I need a name  ( Complain here ) 22:41, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
 * If you have a better idea, I'm all ears. Believe me, I don't like being so draconain. But I'm losing my patience here. -- SFH 22:44, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
 * SFH, he hasn't done any trolling yet. Even if we've heard the argument before, we should still be civil.

Anon, I understand what you are trying to say. But the fact of the matter is that the only canon source which speaks to the Exile's gender give it as female. It can't be mistaken, because it's the first and only source to give such information, so there is nothing to contradict it. The Exile is canonically female, and unless we report it as such, we are not doing our duty as a reliable source of information. -  Angel Blue  (Holonet) 22:47, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
 * The only problem is people have and will sign up just to vandalise, anon you must see now that you won't get your way, we here deal with canon, the exile is female, and its about time everyone just gets over it, we accept you havn't been rude but enough is enough, facts are facts. Protect the page I say, otherwise this will never end Jedi Dude 22:49, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I've unlocked it. But this is seriously starting to get out of hand. And trust me, I'm aware that he hasn't done any trolling, or I would have blocked him already. -- SFH 22:51, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

This is a protest at the rude treatment I recieved at Wookieepedia. I have never insulted anyone on this site, I haven't even said the Exile could not be female. All I did was ask that the Exiles gender not be clearly defined as female until there is more information confirming this, so to stop people from screaming that it's one way or another. For this the talk page I was on was "protected" and I was insulted by those who hate any questions. I hope this is not a usual occurance on this site or I will not be coming back.( What's trolling?)
 * *sigh* Someone forgot to lock the page...anyway. ONE source is all that is needed to delclare something canon. As long as nothing contradicts it, it's canon. If you don't like it, leave please. -- Redemption Talk [[Image:Oldrepublic.jpg|15px]] 23:06, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Actually, it was locked, but then I unlocked it. It was reactionary to lock it on my part, and for that I apologize. -- SFH 23:09, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

The official kotor website still has a male representing the Exile. As this is after the book, isn't it cannon?( No one has told me what trolling is)
 * The book was released only a few months ago, long since the website was made. See Sentry's link for a definition of trolling. --  I need a name  ( Complain here ) 23:16, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Why did they decide to have the Exile as female but not change their site to reflect this?
 * Because Lucasarts has themselves moved away from KOTOR II. There isn't any need to do that. Official Gamesites like KOTOR aren't for canon and that jazz but just to display gameplay. -- Redemption Talk [[Image:Oldrepublic.jpg|15px]] 23:32, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Okay, but how is my idea in any way not cannon?
 * NED clearly calls the Exile female on three seperate pages. Thats how. -- Redemption Talk [[Image:Oldrepublic.jpg|15px]] 23:49, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
 * See, we can't just pick and choose canon. Believe me, I'm not happy with every single piece of canon there is (the Jedi sniper comes to mind).  I accept them, but that doesn't mean I'm neccessarily crazy about them.  The great thing is that, in your own personal interperetation, no one is forcing you to accept every single thing.  But for our purposes, if it's canon we have to record it faithfully. -  Angel Blue  (Holonet) 00:20, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
 * For whatever it is worth, I am sorry for insinuating that you were a troll. "Do not feed the trolls" is a phrase often used in discussion forums. It simply means that users should stop responding to another's users comments because such attention will only encourage that user. I wrote it for the simple reason that you have been bringing up the question of the Exile's gender, time and again, even though the subject has already been fully addressed on this talk page. After a while we are forced to consider that either you haven't fully read all of the comments on this page or that you are rejecting the fairly bulletproof evidence that has been provided to prove that the Exile is female, simply because you don't like where that evidence leads. Continuing to argue a point that has already been disproved is tantamount to hijacking the discussion on this talk page and that is borderline trollish behavior.– 01:13, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for your apology. You are correct in thinking that I have not read all of the comments on this page, but this is because as far as I can tell most of them disolve into 'shouting' matchs with people yelling out their opinion. If you could post the comments with the 'bulletproof evidence', or provide a link, I would be very grateful.


 * Look in the "Gender" section of the Exile's article, and see the quotes from The New Essential Guide to Droids. As you can see, the quotes are pretty clear as to the Exile's gender. -  Angel Blue  (Holonet) 22:02, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Also look at the following links ("Tasty taste" is the alias of Leland Chee):
 * http://forums.starwars.com/thread.jspa?threadID=222689&start=1530#14157612
 * http://forums.starwars.com/thread.jspa?threadID=222689&start=615#12367041
 * http://forums.starwars.com/thread.jspa?threadID=222689&start=01830#14548812 – 00:15, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the info. But, do you know of any more recent posts by Tasty taste? The ones I saw seemed to have come before the book.

Request for temporary shield deactivation
Sorry to interrupt all this fun, but I've corrected a few things on the article that I'd like to save, and I was wondering if it could be unlocked for just a minute. If not, that's understandable; I could just put it up on a temp page and then an admin could paste it in. -- Ozzel 22:54, 8 October 2006 (UTC) I too would like to request a temporary shield deactivation. By popular request I wrote up Brianna's possible romance to go along with the Visas section. Master Kavar 03:46, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
 * You have five minuest. Go. -- SFH 22:57, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Done! -- Ozzel 22:59, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Thank you. -- SFH 22:59, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Source?
I am in the middle of a major overhaul of this article (see User:Sentry/Jedi Exile) and I just came across something that I had never heard before:

Does anyone know what the source of this information is? According to the Chronicles, Atris leaked the details of the Jedi Conclave on Katarr, but I don't remember ever hearing about this second leak&hellip;– 08:58, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I remember this being from the game, when you talk to Atris after fighting her. - Sikon 09:07, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks Sikon, I'll check it out :-) – 22:12, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Yep, load up a saved game, fight Atris, and have a little chat. It's all there. :) --Scy Storm 07:27, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Brianna
Two questions: If the Exile is female, then what is the fate of Brianna? If she's one of the lost jedi, then did she die with the rest of her sisters at the Telos Academy, or did she slip away from or survive the Exile's slaughter? Jedi Wolf 3:46, 22 Octbober 2006 (UTC) That's true I suppose; I thought the murder was implied, but considering how much content is missing it's probably not a good idea to make any assumptions. For all we know Atris just wanted to tell them they had the rest of the day off. XD Master Kavar 02:18, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Unknown. Completely and utterly unknown as to what happens to the Handmaiden Sisters. -- Redemption Talk [[Image:Oldrepublic.jpg|15px]] 19:53, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I believe in the female Exile scenario that Atris murders the handmaidens herself, to prevent them from discovering her fall to the dark side. I can't say if this happens to Brianna is well, she's not shown at all. Master Kavar 00:14, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
 * The game makes no indication of this, does it? Kreia tells the handmaidens that Atris wishes to see them, and we never see the handmaidens again... however, in the male version, Kreia gives the same line and we DO see the handmaidens again. So I'd attribute it more to a lack of content, than to an implication that they were killed. -BaronGrackle 02:05, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Malachor
Can someone post a quote from an official source confirming that Malachor was destroyed, please.
 * What do you mean? The planet disintegrated in one of the final cinematic videos in KotOR:TSL.– 20:46, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

There is more than one ending. I'm trying to find out if its destruction was confirmed in an official source, for a theory I am developing.
 * In the canonical ending Malachor was destroyed. So yes, it was. Darth Abeonis Sith Council (Sith Campaign) 07:22, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
 * There's only two endings: Light or Dark. And since the Light Side ending is canonical, Malachor V was disintigrated as the Exile left it. It's gone. As for a quote, look here on the talk page, at the top. She is listed specifically in the New Essential as a "heroine." I don't much think "heroine" constitutes the Dark Side ending. --Scy Storm 07:30, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Irony
As stated by Kreia in KOTOR II, Revan and the Jedi Exile are ironically described being total opposites, namely; Revan being called "The Heart of the Force", while The Exile was called "The Death of the Force".

How is this ironic? Kreia doesn't "ironically" describe them as total opposites she flat out and plainly describes them as total opposites.(Ulicus 12:34, 25 October 2006 (UTC))
 * You're right, that bugs the hell out of me. I would change it myself if I could. Master Kavar 16:50, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
 * All an administrator has to do is take out the words "described being"..."being called"... and "was called", and then fill in the grammatical holes. -BaronGrackle 20:26, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Actually, I think they should just remove "ironically." I don't recall Kreia ever mentioning it as being ironic, though you can correct me if I'm wrong. It's plain to see that it is NOT ironic, so if Kreia DID say it was, then we'll go with your idea, Baron. --Scy Storm 07:33, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
 * No, I don't think she ever called it ironic, but "Heart of the Force" and "Death of the Force" are nearly direct opposites. As Revan and Exile were major controllers of Galactic events, one after the other, it could qualify as irony&mdash;it's just that Kreia's description was not ironic. Kreia was not being ironic; they were. Grammar structure. But removing the word "ironicallly" also fixes the sentence. -BaronGrackle 15:51, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Hi, um...I wrote that triva. I didn't know she purposely stated it as such, I thought it was coincidental. I didn't think it'd cause so much irritation, either. Sorry. --_-- Xepeyon 02:44, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Lightsaber of the Jedi Exile
Although the player has the choice on what type and color the lightsaber is that Atris takes out during their conversation at the Telos Academy, if the player declines to talk about the lightsaber after Peragus, the default lightsaber is a single-bladed cyan-colored lightsaber.

I would like to know where this piece of information came from, as well as any instances in the game it is verified. In my experience, if the lightsaber discussion with Atton is dismissed, the default lightsaber of the Exile is single-bladed, and the colour depends on her class (yellow for the Sentinal class, blue for Guardian and green for Consular). This is shown during the Trial of the Exile cinematic, where she proceeds to stab her ignited lightsaber into the center stone.

Where did the idea of a cyan lightsaber come from? --Chaota 20:59, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
 * That's bizzare Chaota; I've played that scene a dozen times myself, and if the question of the Exile's lightsaber was dismissed it is always set to single blade Cyan. And I've done that scene with all three starting classes. I'm not certain why it would be different for you. Master Kavar 21:48, 30 October 2006 (UTC)