Wookieepedia:Good article nominations/General Grievous's Theme

General Grievous' Theme

 * Nominated by: MasterFred Commerce Guild.svg(Whatever) 17:12, November 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Nomination comments: A first for WP:RWM

Support

 * 1) Hooray! Menkooroo 04:16, November 17, 2010 (UTC)
 * 2) Looks pretty good to me. Not quite as in-depth as the Arena Theme, but still good.  Trak Nar  Ramble on 05:22, December 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * 3) Dun-dun-DUN! ~ SavageBob 16:25, January 17, 2011 (UTC)

Object

 * I feel like more detail is needed --- for any article on a piece of music, particularly in the "summary" section. You mention that the French horns play the main melody, but can you describe what that melody is? The London Voices come in next --- what do they do? What do you mean by "purist form"?
 * Good? MasterFred Commerce Guild.svg(Whatever) 16:26, November 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah! I think some wikipedia linking might be handy there, though, for things like trumpet, french horn, string part, and maybe a few more things. Whaddya think? Menkooroo 00:31, November 8, 2010 (UTC)
 * Links added. MasterFred Commerce Guild.svg(Whatever) 02:09, November 8, 2010 (UTC)
 * Check out the first sentence of summary --- doesn't seem to make sense.
 * Fixed. I must've read over it. MasterFred Commerce Guild.svg(Whatever) 16:26, November 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * The link for the leading quote just leads to a page with a bunch of photos.
 * I added that quote to the Wook a long, long time ago. I must've been noobish. :P MasterFred Commerce Guild.svg(Whatever) 16:26, November 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Is there anything on the ROTS DVD about the making of the music? Is there anything else at all that could go in the conception and development section?
 * Nothing that pertains directly to the theme. Just stuff about the music in general, which would fit better on the soundtrack article IMO. MasterFred Commerce Guild.svg(Whatever) 16:26, November 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Is the opening of the article an intro? If so, everything from it needs to be reintroduced later in the article. Conception and development shouldn't just mention "the theme" --- it needs to introduce what that theme is (remember that the intro is entirely separate from the rest of the article).
 * Oops, I'll get used to that. Eventually. MasterFred Commerce Guild.svg(Whatever) 16:26, November 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * This is a really good start, but I feel like the article needs more info. It could easily be padded up to Good article length. Menkooroo 15:42, November 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks. c):D MasterFred Commerce Guild.svg(Whatever) 16:26, November 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * The word count is 259. So, do I just move this all to the GA page? MasterFred Commerce Guild.svg(Whatever) 16:40, November 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Heya! Remember that things only need to be linked to once (namely, Grievous). Also, look out for redirects --- General Grievous and Neimoidian shuttle are two examples. Menkooroo 00:31, November 8, 2010 (UTC)
 * Oh, I didn't know that was frowned upon. Oh well, links fixed. MasterFred Commerce Guild.svg(Whatever) 02:09, November 8, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah, redirects are a no-no. Give the article another lookover; there are some more redirects to be blasted.
 * I think that's all of them. MasterFred Commerce Guild.svg(Whatever) 13:53, November 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * I fixed the last one. 1358  (Talk) 18:42, November 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * I must be blind! c):D MasterFred Commerce Guild.svg(Whatever) 19:15, November 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * Can you find a better main image for the article? Something like in The Imperial March?
 * Looked to no avail. Do you think I could just figure the notes out by ear and enter them in my music program? Or would that be OR? MasterFred Commerce Guild.svg(Whatever) 13:53, November 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * Hm... honestly, I have no idea. I think the current image would probably be OK if you put a caption below it, similar to this one.
 * Caption added. MasterFred Commerce Guild.svg(Whatever) 04:47, November 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * Oh, I see what you mean. :P Thanks. MasterFred Commerce Guild.svg(Whatever) 04:18, November 17, 2010 (UTC)
 * Hmmm... I don't know if the "In the soundtracks" section is needed, as it's just a rehash of info already in "Summary". It might be better to just state the info once.
 * Oops, forgot to address this one. Well, section merged. MasterFred Commerce Guild.svg(Whatever) 18:34, November 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * Remember to link to things the first time they're mentioned (ROTS soundtrack).
 * Oops. MasterFred Commerce Guild.svg<sup style="color:green">(Whatever) 13:53, November 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * Are the lyrics to this piece anywhere online? Are they Latin? Do you know the translation? That might be some noteworthy info there. Menkooroo 12:21, November 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * I've looked to no avail. MasterFred Commerce Guild.svg<sup style="color:green">(Whatever) 13:53, November 10, 2010 (UTC)

Prepare to be savaged...

 * Should that be "the purist form" or the "the purest form"? ~ SavageBob 16:15, November 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * You're right. Thanks. MasterFred Commerce Guild.svg<sup style="color:green">(Whatever) 23:31, November 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * There seems to be a bit of OR in the article. For instance, we need a source citation for the "Symbolism" section to know what source calls the theme "majestic." Also, I'm a bit uncomfortable with calling one version of the theme "the purest, most direct, and complex form" without a source citation, but I grant that this may just have to do with my lack of musical knowledge. At the very least, the "Symbolism" section needs a source. ~ SavageBob 16:39, January 4, 2011 (UTC)
 * I've addressed the symbolism below in Xd's objections. He said I needed more context on Grievous, and since the symbolism section is already part of my makeshift LG for music, I added it. However, I really don't know how to source it. As for the other instance, "purest" and "direct" may be OR, but "most complex" isn't. The difference in complexity is obvious. I'll remove the other two adjectives. MasterFred Commerce Guild.svg<sup style="color:green">(Whatever) 22:13, January 4, 2011 (UTC)
 * Better. I still don't think it's fair to assume something is a symbol of something else without a source to back it up. I'd say the same thing if someone were to write an article on A New Hope and say that the Empire is a symbol of fascism. It might be, but we've got to be very careful about such statements unless we can attribute them somewhere. To clarify, though, the first sentence of "Symbolism" seems OK; it's pretty obvious that "General Grievous' Theme" represents General Grievous. The next sentence is not OR (since it's obvious that Grievous is tall from the movie), but the third sentence is OR without a source. (And without the third sentence, the second sentence is unneeded). ~ SavageBob 16:38, January 5, 2011 (UTC)
 * I've changed it to a "Background on Grievous" section as I could not think of how to properly source the symbolism without any sheet music. MasterFred Commerce Guild.svg<sup style="color:green">(Whatever) 18:34, January 6, 2011 (UTC)

Trayus

 * Isn't the theme also heard during the duel in the hangar between Obi and Grievous? When they first engage one another? Darth Trayus ( Trayus Academy ) 05:10, November 17, 2010 (UTC)
 * I didn't hear it when I went through the movie, but I occassionally got caught up in the action and forgot to listen. :P I'll check again when I get home from school. MasterFred Commerce Guild.svg<sup style="color:green">(Whatever) 13:46, November 17, 2010 (UTC)
 * You're right. Good ear!! MasterFred Commerce Guild.svg<sup style="color:green">(Whatever) 22:52, November 17, 2010 (UTC)

Xd's theme

 * Can something, like a Wikipedia article, be linked in the second item of "Released". I'm referring to the mp3 thing.
 * Linked. MasterFred Commerce Guild.svg<sup style="color:green">(Whatever) 17:57, December 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't usually object to something small like this, but there's an obvious thing linked twice in the intro. Please make sure you check for overlinking in the future.
 * Will do. Link abolished. MasterFred Commerce Guild.svg<sup style="color:green">(Whatever) 17:57, December 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * Can you combine the second and the third sentences of the intro? They are rather choppy as is.
 * Better? MasterFred Commerce Guild.svg<sup style="color:green">(Whatever) 05:53, December 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * Can you say that the London Voices is a choir? The LSO is pretty self-contextualizing, but not the choir.
 * Better? MasterFred Commerce Guild.svg<sup style="color:green">(Whatever) 05:53, December 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * In the body, can you mention that Williams had written SW music before ROTS's soundtrack, too?
 * Better? MasterFred Commerce Guild.svg<sup style="color:green">(Whatever) 05:53, December 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * That needs a source, I guess. 1358  <sup style="color:#336600;">(Talk)  18:44, December 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * Ah yes, of course. I reffed all five films. Is that a little excessive? MasterFred Commerce Guild.svg<sup style="color:green">(Whatever) 17:57, December 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * Okay, two things here. First, "John Williams was contracted to write the score for Star Wars Episode III: Revenge of the Sith" can't be sourced to the films. Second, I suggest you find one reliable source instead of using the movies. 1358  <sup style="color:#336600;">(Talk)  19:57, December 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * Please fix this asap; this is getting rather old. 1358  <sup style="color:#336600;">(Talk)  16:26, January 5, 2011 (UTC)
 * Sorry, Xd. I've just been busy the past two weeks and never got around to this one. Should be fixed now. Thanks for being patient. :) MasterFred Commerce Guild.svg<sup style="color:green">(Whatever) 13:52, January 6, 2011 (UTC)
 * Nowhere on that page can I find that information. I just see a bunch of links to other StarWars.com pages. In addition, you can probably use the SW template for starwars.com references. 1358  <sup style="color:#336600;">(Talk)  14:41, January 6, 2011 (UTC)
 * You have to go to each movie's page which is linked to on that page. They contain the cast and crew lists for each film. MasterFred Commerce Guild.svg<sup style="color:green">(Whatever) 17:56, January 6, 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm a little hesitant about this, but I'll let it go for now. 1358  <sup style="color:#336600;">(Talk)  13:43, January 17, 2011 (UTC)
 * I'll ask around on IRC tonight and see what others say. MasterFred Commerce Guild.svg<sup style="color:green">(Whatever) 18:23, January 18, 2011 (UTC)
 * Quotation marks go after periods and commas.
 * Oops, silly me. Better? MasterFred Commerce Guild.svg<sup style="color:green">(Whatever) 05:53, December 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * Some more context on Grievous, perhaps?
 * I added a "Symbolism" section, but I don't really know how to source it. MasterFred Commerce Guild.svg<sup style="color:green">(Whatever) 13:45, January 4, 2011 (UTC)
 * I was referring to something small, like his affiliation with the CIS, but if you can properly source the symbolism, I'm fine with it. 1358  <sup style="color:#336600;">(Talk)  16:26, January 5, 2011 (UTC)
 * Intro says "The theme appears&hellip;once in its soundtrack." while body says it appeared twice. Please fix.
 * Oh yeah. I forgot to change both of them after I noticed it appeared twice. MasterFred Commerce Guild.svg<sup style="color:green">(Whatever) 19:42, December 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * The parenthesis must go away. They break the flow.
 * Removed. MasterFred Commerce Guild.svg<sup style="color:green">(Whatever) 19:47, December 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * As much as I like the current image of Grievous, I feel you should replace it with an image from the film.
 * Replaced. MasterFred Commerce Guild.svg<sup style="color:green">(Whatever) 17:11, December 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * Please go through the "In the movies" section and give context for the things mentioned there.
 * What exactly do you mean? MasterFred Commerce Guild.svg<sup style="color:green">(Whatever) 19:47, December 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * Context on Invisible Hand (flagship, anyone?) What is Utapau? Who is Kenobi? Context, man, you need context. :P 1358  <sup style="color:#336600;">(Talk)  19:57, December 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * Better? MasterFred Commerce Guild.svg<sup style="color:green">(Whatever) 05:25, December 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * Also, in that section, you mention "film". Shouldn't that be changed to movie, like the section header?
 * I figured they were interchangable. Changed anyway. MasterFred Commerce Guild.svg<sup style="color:green">(Whatever) 19:42, December 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * They are, but our articles should be consistent. Besides, we prefer American spelling, and movie is more American than film. 1358  <sup style="color:#336600;">(Talk)  19:57, December 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * Can you mention what tracks it is featured on? The first? The fifteenth?
 * Fixed. MasterFred Commerce Guild.svg<sup style="color:green">(Whatever) 19:42, December 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * Remember what I said about the quotation marks&hellip; 1358  <sup style="color:#336600;">(Talk)  19:57, December 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * Gosh, I just got stuck in that bad habit and I don't know why. I guess I'll have to watch for that more carefully in the future. MasterFred Commerce Guild.svg<sup style="color:green">(Whatever) 05:25, December 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * Please give a more descriptive name to the second external link? Isn't the complete title of the site, "The Official Star Wars music site" better?
 * Yes it is. Changed. MasterFred Commerce Guild.svg<sup style="color:green">(Whatever) 19:47, December 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * 1358 <sup style="color:#336600;">(Talk)  20:30, December 19, 2010 (UTC)

Jujiggum

 * You currently have intro-only information. Make sure that everything in the intro included somewhere in the main body.
 * What info? I'm not seeing it. MasterFred Commerce Guild.svg<sup style="color:green">(Whatever) 13:48, January 24, 2011 (UTC)
 * The "Background on General Grievous" section just doesn't really sit right with me. The first sentence is fine, but the second is filled with POV stuff that you can't attribute to the movie. Please clean this up.
 * What do you mean by "purest?" Do you mean it has the clearest form of the theme (ie the easiest to make out?)
 * Yeah, that's what I meant. Changed to your wording. Better? MasterFred Commerce Guild.svg<sup style="color:green">(Whatever) 13:51, January 24, 2011 (UTC)
 * "The theme also appears in the track "Star Wars and The Revenge of the Sith."" On my copy of the soundtrack, the listing on it names the first track: "Star Wars/The Revenge of the Sith."
 * /'s are often replaced with "and," but I went ahead and changed it for consistency's sake. MasterFred Commerce Guild.svg<sup style="color:green">(Whatever) 13:48, January 24, 2011 (UTC)
 * Intriguing subject. I'll give the article one more look-over once these are addressed. Jonjedigrandmaster  ( Talk ) 19:19, January 22, 2011 (UTC)

Comments

 * Just letting you know that I jettisoned reference #3. I think that ref #1 was sufficient for that final sentence, and it's probably not a good idea to claim that the article might not be complete. Technically, every out-of-universe article might not be complete, but we write them by doing exhaustive research and presenting all the information we can find. Menkooroo 01:39, November 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * That's fine. I went ahead and removed the ref in Arena Theme too, as it's up for GAN. Thanks. MasterFred Commerce Guild.svg<sup style="color:green">(Whatever) 13:37, November 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * The head quote does not specifically relate to the subject of the article. Lucas is commenting on Williams' score as a whole, not just Grievous' theme.  JangFett  (Talk) 05:02, December 16, 2010 (UTC)


 * I replaced it with a JWFan quote directly related to the theme. MasterFred Commerce Guild.svg<sup style="color:green">(Whatever) 13:41, December 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry, but quotes from fan-related websites are unsuitable for an article. You may, however, find a quote from an official review website, or anything similiar.  JangFett  (Talk) 18:51, December 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * I replaced it with a non-fan-related review. Is that better? MasterFred Commerce Guild.svg<sup style="color:green">(Whatever) 19:29, January 6, 2011 (UTC)