Talk:Mace Windu/Legends

Jedi Guardian?

 * The so-called Guardian-Consular dichotomy is based on RPG material by Wizards of the Coast, which were the basis for the computer games series Knights of the Old Republic. Though I don't automatically disregard Rpg-material when it comes to judging canonicity, one has to understand that the Dungeons&Dragons-inspired approach (character classes) does not translate well into the Star Wars universe. I find no film reference on it whatsoever and no evidence that the so-called guardians are better fighters and worse diplomats. Therefore I edited the passage that basically implied the following: As a Guardian, Windu should not be as good a diplomat as he is. --Gen.d 18:28, 20 May 2005 (UTC)
 * I agree. The Guardian/Consular separation was only a game convention (and the writers of the RPG confirmed this) and was not supposed to be an in-universe separation, until the writes of KOTOR made it that, and came up with the ridiculous lightsaber color scheme to go along with it. Mention it, but also make not of his skills as a diplomat. I suppose we can fudge it and Yoda's fighting skill because they are ultra-high-level. :) QuentinGeorge 22:25, 20 May 2005 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't even mention that they dubbed him a Guardian. He is a Councillor, a spokesperson, a chair or whatever. All Jedi are "guardians of peace and justice", some (including Mace Windu) counseled the upper echelons of galactic politics. Once we include a title such as Guardian in the encyclopedia, we essentially agree with this unprecedented dichotomy. For my part, I don't. --Gen.d 12:54, 21 May 2005 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't put any faith into the classes etc. IU wise, it's possible that the practice of classing and saber colours died out before the Yavin era (possibly during the near extinction of the order in Kotor II?). Either way, evidence from the movie seems to show excellent Force ability and excellent saber skill to go hand in hand, rather than the opposite shown in games, etc. I think it all needs to be discounted as game mechanic, just as we wouldn't say, for example, that Malak had 167 hit points at the time of his death. --Fade 22:04, 21 May 2005 (UTC)

Biography

 * Can it be that he became a Jedi Master and joined the Council at age 13? I think Episode III contradicts this statement - Obi-Wan says that Anakin was the youngest Jedi ever to join the Council. (Ki-Adi-Mundi not being a Master in Ep.I is contradicted as well...)--Gen.d 15:24, 21 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Mace joined the Council at the age of 28, when Obi-Wan was 13. Anakin was 23 when he joined the council. Note, the text says "before his thirteeth" ie, 30th. QuentinGeorge 21:55, 21 May 2005 (UTC)
 * I stand corrected. So Anakin beats Mace Windu by a couple of years. Ki-Adi Mundi is still an issue, though. --Gen.d 22:35, 22 May 2005 (UTC)
 * For those who care, here's Tasty Taste's timeline for Mace's life, from this thread:
 * -72 birth "year"
 * -58 builds lightsaber
 * -50 fights Gorm the Dissolver
 * <-44 joins the Jedi Council (he's on the Council in the Jedi Apprentice series)
 * -32 Mission to Malastare (Emissaries to Malastare)
 * -22 Battle of Geonosis (Attack of the Clones)
 * -21 Mission to Dantooine
 * -21 Mission to Haruun Kal (Shatterpoint)
 * -19 (Episode III)


 * Ki-Adi was in the process of becoming a Master during TPM, according to Tasty's Blog - Kwenn

Portrayal

 * Is fan speculation about his lightsaber's blade colour encyclopedia-worthy? Especially since he proved not to be a traitor, but a hero? --Gen.d 13:10, 21 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Removed the following passage: This caused much speculation among the fans, some of whom believed his purple blade signified a forthcoming plot twist that would reveal Windu as a Jedi traitor (basing such speculation on the fact that blue and red (light and dark in terms of lightsaber colour) make purple when mixed, suggesting that Mace was both light and dark.)

That is so idiotic, who would be dumb enough to think that? It reminds me of when I met someone online several years back who thought Sidious and Palpatine where two different people. Not only that but they where trying to reason with someone who thought Darth Maul might come back. Their reasoning went something like this: "Darth Maul can't come back, otherwise how can Palpatine be trained?" It amazes me how dense some people are. It was obvious to me that Palpatine was Darth Sidious the fist time I saw Sidious. I would also like to point out that I don't care if you believe me.

Quote
That is horrible, asking for permission to remove. --Imp 10:06, 30 Jul 2005 (UTC)
 * It's quite long. Do you have suggestion for a better one? – Aidje talk 02:18, 17 Oct 2005 (UTC) Add "your under arrest chancellor"
 * What are you taking about? I know its long, but it shows that Mace Windu is indeed a B.M.F. -- SFH 18:51, 23 Oct 2005 (UTC)
 * Er, that quote is part of the text of Windu's entry in the New Essential Guide to Characters. I don't remember it in Shatterpoint (though I can't be sure). Can anyone verify? - Kwenn 18:43, 3 Jan 2006 (UTC)
 * It isn't from Shatterpoint.--The Erl of Coruscant
 * If the NEC is the only source, it can't be classed as a quote since it's part of the text itself, and not 'spoken' by anyone - Kwenn 19:09, 6 Jan 2006 (UTC)

Can we add the "We don't have to win, we only have to fight" quote?--The Erl of Coruscant

Human/Near-Human
As far as I know, only the Wizards.com site makes the claim Windu is a near-human, rather than a baseline human. The OS databank, Wizards RPG rulebook, NEGTC all say "Human". I think it should be changed back to "Human" or "Korunnai Human". QuentinGeorge 06:14, 29 Aug 2005 (UTC)
 * Also, doesn't "human" have a different definition for RPGs? For example, in Dungeons and Dragons, elves aren't human. But humans and elves can produce fertile offspring. It's gameplay, not genetics, right?-LtNOWIS 06:58, 29 Aug 2005 (UTC)
 * Yeah, even the designers admitted the way they'd been using "Near-Human" in the RPG was different to the rest of the literature. QuentinGeorge 07:06, 29 Aug 2005 (UTC)
 * For one thing, Korun is singular, Korunnai plural. Also, the Korunnai differ from baseline humans in their abilitiy to resist poisonous gases longer, which is a genetically inherited trait, and they a,lso inherit Force-sensitivity, so they are definitely as near-human as Hapans and Kiffar.
 * For one thing, they're force-sensitive because they are descendants of Jedi Humans - that doesn't make them near-human, just humans descended from an exclusively force-sensitive line. 2) The resistance to poisonous gas seems to come entirely from the Wizards.com stats. Is it stated anywhere in Shatterpoint? QuentinGeorge 06:01, 30 Aug 2005 (UTC)

Outsparred by Dooku?
What's the source which confirms that Dooku would outspar Windu? I find it weird because we have seen him outspar Palpatine. Why would exactly Dooku defeat him? - TopAce, 7th September, 23:01 (GMT+1)

Ah, but we still don't know legitimately whether or not Palpatine threw the duel now do we? Judging from the extreme difference in speed from the Mace fight with the Yoda fight, I would say it would be quite reasonable to surmise that Palpatine was going easy on him.

Palpatine threw the fight. DarthMalus

Dooku outsparring Mace is from the official databank. And there's no evidence that Palpatine threw that fight. Not everyone brings their A game every day. I don't see why Mace couldn't have lost to Dooku, and then beaten the much more powerful Palpatine years later. JimRaynor55 03:40, 6 Dec 2005 (UTC)
 * I think it's pretty clear Palpy was just acting. But it can be argued... --Master Starkeiller 12:38, 6 Dec 2005 (UTC)
 * Yes, it can be argued. There was a poll on starwars.com, and about 57% visitors said they believed Windu really overpowered Palpatine. Sikon [ Talk ] 08:36, 19 Dec 2005 (UTC)

Even post-Geonosis, Dooku and two unarmed bodyguard-droids punk Mace fairly decisively (disarmed, over cliff) in the comic series Obsession. Yrfeloran, 3 Jan

Dooku never defeated him. Or did I miss something? I didn't found any line in comics or books stated Windu to be defeated by Dooku. What do you think?

Three things. One, what is Palpatine's motive for throwing the fight? In the end, he got considerably weaker because he lost. If he could have won, we wouldn't have wasted time lowering is energy. Two, Palpatine does fight just as fiercly with Windu as Yoda. It just Windu and him were in a small office, while him and Yoda used an entire Senate room, and barely even used lightsabers. Three, Dooku was an apprentice of Yoda. And Yoda defeated him. Palpatine defeated Yoda. Windu defeated Palpatined. All in all, Count Dooku would fall at the hands of Mace Windu. PuckUdroc, 4 March
 * No, no, no. Dooku wasn't defeated by Yoda, cause he had to bring the plans for the deathstar right away to Palpaine. And Palpatine lost the saber duel against Mace. But atm it's irrelevant. We're talking about Dooku and Windu. They're respecting each other. But there is no line in any book or comic stated him to be defeated by Dooku. And the Star Wars Database is totally bullshit (there are many mistakes); wikipedia is better. So, what now?
 * Feel free to contribute :I
 * Hey, guys, answer something, otherwise I have to change it alone.
 * The databank article linked above is not bull, it's an official source. Also, Power of the Jedi sourcebook, page 112. "In the history of the Jedi Order, only two opponents ever overcame him in battle. [Yoda and] The other was former Master Dooku, whose own fighting style was archaic, yet stunningly effective". And here, in Obsession. Yrfeloran 16:15, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Palpatine did not lose the fight to Mace - if you read the novel, listened to the audio commentary, or just had the brains to examine the scene in the movie more closely, you would realize that Palpatine was pretending in order to gain sympathy from Anakin - the sympathy needed to push him to the Dark Side. What better way to push him over the edge than have him attack Mace Windu? And as for Windu against Dooku, I have the Power of the Jedi D20 sourcebook, and it clearly states towards the end of his biography that the only two Jedi to overcome him in battle were Yoda and Count Dooku (which also lends credit to the Palpatine and Mace fight, as if you think Dooku can beat Palpatine, then you've lost all credibility). --Danik Kreldin 17:07, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
 * So it is clear that no Jedi was match for a Sith Lord. - TopAce 18:17, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Why is it so difficult to listen correctly to an audio commentary? Really ... this is disturbing. The Producer said Windu and Palpatine wanted to see who is stronger of them. Lucas said "the scene always started out with mace overpowering palpatine" ... and so on. There is none quote, none at all, stating Palpatine faked the duel.
 * Wow. Okay, holdon. Lucas: This sequence.. uh.. always started out with Mace overpowering Palpatine, and then Palpatine using his powers trying to destroy Mace, and Mace deflecting his rays with his lightsaber. And it was always was that Anakin cut the lightsaber out of his hand. But this part here where he pretends to lose his power and be weak was something that I added later.. Don't just pick and choose words. Palpatine pretended to be weak, to rile Anakin. --Danik Kreldin 20:51, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeah, Palpatine lost the lightsaber duel; but thats not the topic here. The topic here is Dooku against Windu. Well, anyone wanna contribute something?

Final Battle
Some of you may want to space me just for even thinking this out loud, but I've always said be proud of what you think, so here it goes. As I read the Episode III novelization, it appeared the Mace kept pushing himself to keep up with Palpatine, and that Vaapad was using your "darkness" with out letting it use you. And also, Mace's love for the Republic, and his reaction that the Jedi Order was under the control of the Sith also gave me some pause. Finally, the fact that Mace was going to kill Palpatine unarmed (but I admit, not defenseless), leads me to what may be a horrorfying thought?

In his last battle, could Mace Windu have been touching the dark side? -- SFH 00:28, 23 Sep 2005 (UTC)

No of course not! Its a good thought but as you said he was fighting for the Republic he loved! Also Palpatine had control over the Senate and the Courts, a trail would have been useless and in the end the jedi would have had to kill Palps

Image
Anyone shares my opinion that a duelling image would be better than the current one about the final battle? TopAce, 13:14 GMT +1, 1 Oct 2005

Vaapad
That's right. Depa Billaba and Sora Bulq were masters of Vaapad and both turned to the dark side.

Dead, Yes, Dead

 * Windu is dead. Just like Plo Koon is dead, just like Aayla Secura is dead. Don't believe me? Read the databank.


 * The final blast bodily lifted him into the air, sending his form hurling into the Coruscant skies, to crash lifelessly somewhere in the vast cityscape below.

See the word "lifelessly"? That means "dead". Deal with it. QuentinGeorge 09:56, 7 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * The problem is, his death wasn't actually seen. And, given the abilities he displayed in the Clone Wars animated series and even when he fell from a great height in AOTC. These points lead to his survival. We must look to the actual EU, not something that reports on it. Adamwankenobi 09:58, 7 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * No, that's not a problem at all. The databank is canon. More so, I might add, than the exaggerated antics in the cartoon. We're not going to go into this tedious debate again, otherwise anons will start vandalising the articles of the other Purge Jedi. QuentinGeorge 10:02, 7 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * I would agree with you on this, but, the thing is, his death can't be completely proven. Just like in real historical documents, you can't assume things without proof. In this case of course, EU works are the "documents" of proof. If there is an EU work (the OS isn't, it merely reports the EU) that specifically reports that he died, then I will accept it. But not until then. The articles must reflect actual canon, not the databank, whose job is to report the EU, not create it. And the databank can't be "more" caon than the CW animated series, suince they are both C-canon. The only way the databank could be is if it were directly written by Lucas, or directly based off of his thoughts. And it's not, it combines assumptions with EU, with film-related things, etc. Adamwankenobi 10:22, 7 Nov 2005 (UTC)


 * Pardon me for butting in. I too think that he's as dead as a slab of bantha meat on a frying pan, but it is a fact that among fans there are many who refuse to think of him as being dead (several fanfics describe ways in which he might have survived) - this is probably because he's so popular. The polls are not indicative of whether he's dead or not, but they are indicative of what the fans think, and it is my opinion that the polls should be included under the 'Behind the scenes' section. KEJ 10:44, 7 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * I dislike this. Fans have come up with crazy theories to negate nearly EVERY in-universe death, including Chewbacca, Anakin Solo, Darth Maul, Grievous, Aayla Secura, Plo Koon, Nom Anor and pretty much any popular character who has died. We shouldn't coddle there beliefs, we're only interested in recording what is canon and, whether you like it or not, Windu's death is. Period. QuentinGeorge 10:54, 7 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * Does George Lucas' commentary suffice for you? Or if you want an-universe source, how about the fact we seen Windu fall out of the window, and then Yoda clutches his chest, feeling the disturbance caused by his fellow Jedi's death? And on the databank, you are incorrect. It IS a valid source - as valid as any other C-level source. You can't just pick and choose. He is dead, period. What "fans" believe has nothing to do with it. Polls have been run on such questions as "Is Grievous a force user?" or "How long is the Executor?". QuentinGeorge 10:48, 7 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * The New Essential Chronology -


 * Palpatine then charred Mace Windu with Force lightning, sending Mace out the window to his death.
 * Is that enough? Short of having "HE'S DEAD." etched into the side of a mountain, I'm not sure what else you want. QuentinGeorge 11:00, 7 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * This thread has been locked. ;-) --Azizlight 11:09, 7 Nov 2005 (UTC)

I need an official printed source, who's job isn't to report the EU. Only then will I accept he's dead. See, for instance, Palpatine fell down into the reactor, ROTJ would make you think he was dead, but then he actually survives. As much as I hate that idea, I'll accept that, as it has been clearly documented in an actual EU text. Another example is Boba's death. ROTJ makes you assume he died, but an EU text says he lived. If you can give me one text clearly saying that he died, then l accept it. Adamwankenobi 11:29, 7 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * QuentinGeorge, dude, I told you I agree that Mace is dead and gone, and I don't think fanfic-stuff should be included in the in-universe sections. I just find it an interesting fact that Windu's so popular that even though he got fried by force lightning, had his arm amputated, and got thrown out the window and probably splattered all over some lower level street, fans still deny that he is dead. That's why I said the polls and reference to the fanfics should be included in 'Behind the scenes' and as far as I understand the 'Behind the scenes' section deals with all the out-of-universe stuff. You don't have to carve anything into any side of any mountain to convince me that Mace's dead, because I also think that he's dead as a very dead fish. I repeat, I too think that Mace Windu is dead and I have never said that he wasn't KEJ 11:36, 7 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * Oh, I wasn't arguing with you. Mainly with "Adamwankenobi" who, despite given FOUR (!) separate sources, refuses to accept it. I should note that its hardly a common belief - even in that self-selecting poll almost 70% agreed "Yes, of course." he was dead. And another 20% "weren't sure". That puts the "believers" in a statistically insignificant 10%. QuentinGeorge 11:39, 7 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * Common belief or not, that 10% DOES believe he would have survived. Adamwankenobi 17:33, 5 Dec 2005 (UTC)

Windu is definately dead. He died knowing he was betrayed by the only one who could destroy the sith, and knowing Sidious true power, and comes to the realization that he was as good as dead when he challenged the Dark Lord of the Sith. As for the clone wars cartoon, I don't think that they were exaggerated, merely that Mace was fully immersed in the force, and his focus was on the matter at hand. DarthMalus

He did die. The databank said he did. Sure, previously, he has jumped great heigts with the force. But here, he was being shocked, surprised, knocked out, not jumped, and the distance from Palpatines Office to the ground of Coruscant is much greater than the jump from the V.I.P box to the ground in the Execution arena on Geonosis.

Let's Get this Straight

 * I need an official printed source, who's job isn't to report the EU. 
 * New Essential Chronology - Official printed source, and it doesn't just report the EU.

''Only then will I accept he's dead. See, for instance, Palpatine fell down into the reactor, ROTJ would make you think he was dead, but then he actually survives.''
 * He didn't survive. He came back to life in a clone body. Totally different situation.

 As much as I hate that idea, I'll accept that, as it has been clearly documented in an actual EU text.
 * New Essential Chronology.

''Another example is Boba's death. ROTJ makes you assume he died, but an EU text says he lived.''
 * Boba Fett was never stated as dead in the EU, unlike Windu.

''If you can give me one text clearly saying that he died, then l accept it.
 * NEW ESSENTIAL CHRONOLOGY

QuentinGeorge 11:44, 7 Nov 2005 (UTC)


 * The New Essential Chronology is a REFERENCE book. And a reference book does not simply come up with stuff on its own. There must be an EU source it reports on. The Boba and Palps examples I gave you were meant to be examples of a disputed death or survival, anf the EU actually proving one way or the other. If you can give an official text THAT IS NOT A REFERENCE BOOK, WHICH REPORTS, then I will accept it, as I said before. Adamwankenobi 12:08, 7 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * Actually, you are wrong there, Wankenobi, The New Essential Chronology is not just a reference book, and DOES "come up with stuff on its own". For example, New Essential Chronology tells us that Humans originated on Coruscant, and that is new information. There are many other new pieces of information too. MACE IS DEAD, GET OVER IT. There might be a slight chance that he will be revived in future EU, just like Boba or Palpy, but for now, he is officially as dead as the dead horse you are flogging to death. --Azizlight 13:22, 7 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * There is no emotion... - Sikon [ Talk ] 06:29, 8 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * emotion schmotion :-) --Azizlight 07:49, 8 Nov 2005 (UTC)


 * The ROTS novelization. It was based on the script by GL, and GL personally went over the novel line by line and approved it ...is that official enough for you? StarNeptune 13:30, 7 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * I've added a little note in the Behind the Scenes section, saying that a small number of fans are not convinced that Windu died. Hmm, reminds me of the people who insisted that Palpatine and Sidious were 2 different people. --Azizlight 13:38, 7 Nov 2005 (UTC)

B.M.F.
I don't see the point of censorin what 'B.M.F.' stands for.
 * And I'm curious as to where the info that his BMF request was turned down comes from. Thanos6 01:53, 8 Nov 2005 (UTC)

Can you provide a source for your "Jackson also requested that the acronym B.M.F. (for "Bad Motherfucker," a phrase made famous by him in some of his earlier films) should be written on the hilt of his saber, but this request was eventually refused." information? --SparqMan 01:08, 3 Dec 2005 (UTC)


 * Is not my info, was added on August 5 by User:TopAce. The solid source is not easy to remember, it posibly was the Samuel L. Jackon's documental from Biography Channel, the only thing I can provide right now are the following Google results:, --Thinortolan 02:09, 3 Dec 2005 (UTC)
 * (Above SparqMan question and my reply from my talk page) --Thinortolan 02:12, 3 Dec 2005 (UTC)
 * Here he mentioned it in an interview, and he says that it was on his lightsaber. Regardless, I'm not sure that this is noteworthy. Wookieepedia is not a trivia site. --SparqMan 02:15, 3 Dec 2005 (UTC)

The Purple Lightsaber
After reading this article, I felt that the reason why Windu had a Purple Lightsaber in the movies was because he wants to construct a rare lightsaber with a rare crystal that produced a purple-colored blade. I think Windu's intent of creating a lightsaber with rare materials was because of his love to wield an Electrum Lightsaber IMO. I don't think that Windu ever held a Blue Lightsaber--instead he owned only purple lightsabers, but I think he's best known for his creation of a rare electrum lightsaber. &mdash; 24.15.6.252 04:43, 5 Dec 2005 (UTC)
 * To quote Billy Madison: "...what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul." --SparqMan 05:47, 5 Dec 2005 (UTC)
 * Also, the pre-AOTC comics clearly show him with a blue lightsaber. --MarcK [talk] 05:50, 5 Dec 2005 (UTC)
 * Yes, and also, the reason of his lightsaber color is because Sameul L. Jackson requested it to be noticed more by fans, and canon was just created around it.
 * How come in the bio it says he gets his purple lightsaber at 14 but in the episode 1 and comics before ATOC he has blue? Leave me a message on this on my talk page. Mike Kazz Who cares about the date

Image Captions
I changed a couple image captions. They said "shortly before his death" and "dies at the hands of Palpatine". It was reverted by Starkeiller. Whether or not he REALLY DID die is not the question, but WAS IT SHOWN. It was not shown, so there is no reason to put that sort of info in there. We can't "assume" anything in any encyclopedia. I don't want to start an edit war, but the captions, as like the article, should be free from speculation. Tokakeke 19:10, 18 Dec 2005 (UTC) at the time of his/her death" because it was not explicitly shown. Let the reader draw his/her own conclusions. Tokakeke 00:14, 19 Dec 2005 (UTC)
 * No problem, I just thought that since he didn't succeed and captions of a character at the time of his/her death usually say "__________ at the time of his/her death"... The pic that shows him being fried needs to explain he died though. --Master Starkeiller 19:17, 18 Dec 2005 (UTC)
 * Not this again. Look, anything past "at the hands of Palpatine" is assumption. Even if you say there's a 99% chance of him dying, saying it is is assumption. The caption should not have "
 * Whatever... It's fine as it is now. --Master Starkeiller 13:04, 19 Dec 2005 (UTC)

Lightsaber
The Eeth Koth concordance of fealty makes it pretty clear that the aweful lightsaber Mace had in TPM wasn't his. Can that be changed?
 * One of those blue lightsabers was Koth's; the other was actually Mace's. He wore one in TPM and in promo images, though in one single image, he has a different weapon: this was ret-conned to be Koth's weapon. However, there are a number of sources that give Mace a blue blade, so it stays - Kwenn 19:05, 6 Jan 2006 (UTC)

What happened?

 * What happened to this entry? It seems someone "ruined" this page by adding a great amount of "+" and deleting usefull information. We must fix this problem--Jedi Master Daniele 12:08, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Fixed. StarNeptune 12:14, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Ok.. now the page is perfect.--Jedi Master Daniele 17:59, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Images
The page is cluttered with too many images. There is a link to an Image Gallery, so it would be alright to remove at least one of them. --24.253.120.206 06:04, 2 Feb 2006 (UTC)

32 BBY Lightsaber
That is not the same lightsaber he had in the Phantom Menace. At the Liberation of Naboo, you can see it! It is not that one! It looks very similar but is different! does anyone agree

Your right it is a different lightsaber then that one