Wookieepedia:Requests for removal of adminship/Sikon IRC

What follows is a log of my IRC conversation with Sikon during the Nebulax affair. It's long, so relevant statements have been bolded. -- Havac

[2007-06-19 21:36:49]  Hey, Sikon. [2007-06-19 21:38:15]  Do you want to dialogue now? Otherwise I'm going to bed. [2007-06-19 21:39:01] * LucidFox sips tea calmly [2007-06-19 21:39:20]  Is that some kind of Russian code answer? [2007-06-19 21:39:39]  no, it's another one of my obscure references [2007-06-19 21:40:14] |<-- Muppets101 has left freenode ("Bye all") [2007-06-19 21:40:26]  Ah. General code. [2007-06-19 21:40:47]  So, what do you think? [2007-06-19 21:41:18]  I think established contributors shouldn't be permablocked. That's it. [2007-06-19 21:41:36]  What makes them so special? [2007-06-19 21:42:03]  If I replace every page with hardcore porn, I can't be blocked? [2007-06-19 21:42:25]  Manage to stick around a year and I'm all clear? [2007-06-19 21:42:48]  Flawed logic, Lucid. [2007-06-19 21:42:54]  Really. Flawd. [2007-06-19 21:43:22]  If you, Havac, start replacing every page with hardcore porn, I will block you temporarily. [2007-06-19 21:43:38]  And if I tell you I've changed, come back, wait a week and do it again? [2007-06-19 21:43:43]  Eight times? [2007-06-19 21:43:55]  Six of those in six months? [2007-06-19 21:44:02] <LucidFox> So what? [2007-06-19 21:44:07] <LucidFox> Blocks are cheap. [2007-06-19 21:44:16] <Culator|Hereish> At some point it has to end. [2007-06-19 21:44:17] <Redemption> They work.... [2007-06-19 21:44:31] <Havac> What's your justification? [2007-06-19 21:44:46] <Havac> That may be your personal feelings, but it's in conflict with our actual blocking policy. [2007-06-19 21:44:47] <Culator|Hereish> It's insane to let the same person keep disrupting the community at regular intervals. [2007-06-19 21:44:54] <Culator|Hereish> That's why there's a permanent solution. [2007-06-19 21:44:56] <LucidFox> Screw policy. [2007-06-19 21:45:08] <Redemption> Yes, Ataru.... [2007-06-19 21:45:11] <Havac> I don't think you can build a case on "screw policy". [2007-06-19 21:45:19] <LucidFox> Maybe. [2007-06-19 21:45:36] <Havac> You're under no obligation to ban Nebulax permanently yourself. [2007-06-19 21:45:37] <LucidFox> Neither can you build a case on "well, it's policy". [2007-06-19 21:45:52] <Havac> But when I do it, I don't expect you to go against policy to undo my action. [2007-06-19 21:46:02] <Redemption> Sure he can. It's written down. Whatst the point of having policy if you aren't going to follow it? [2007-06-19 21:46:14] <Havac> I have far more than policy. [2007-06-19 21:46:25] <Havac> Countless times, he's promised to change. [2007-06-19 21:46:28] <Redemption> Don't hesitate to use it. =P [2007-06-19 21:46:29] <Havac> He hasn't changed. [2007-06-19 21:46:56] <Havac> There is no point to a temporary ban when he has proven he'll abuse it. [2007-06-19 21:47:03] <Havac> Immediately upon his return. [2007-06-19 21:47:07] <Havac> He doesn't learn. '''[2007-06-19 21:47:43] <Havac> If you're going to use your bureacratship to unilaterally impose your personal belief system against policy, I think there's something wrong there. [2007-06-19 21:48:17] <LucidFox> Yes, that's exactly what I'm doing. [2007-06-19 21:48:41] <LucidFox> Now you have a reason to put me on RFDA. [2007-06-19 21:48:45] <Havac> Well, explain to me your factual justification if that's not what you're doing. [2007-06-19 21:48:56] <LucidFox> That IS what I am doing. [2007-06-19 21:49:13] <Havac> OK, so you want to be deadminned? [2007-06-19 21:49:26] <Havac> Or you just don't care? [2007-06-19 21:49:40] <Havac> Or you're trying to push me into a showdown? [2007-06-19 21:49:55] <LucidFox> No, I don't. [2007-06-19 21:49:59] <LucidFox> I hate showdowns. [2007-06-19 21:50:03] <LucidFox> But. [2007-06-19 21:50:19] <Havac> But. . . [2007-06-19 21:51:11] <LucidFox> This is exactly my modus operandi as I see it - doing what nobody else would do if I believe it's right, always risking everything I've earned.''' [2007-06-19 21:51:33] <Havac> Well, I'd ask that you don't do it by undercutting me. [2007-06-19 21:52:05] <LucidFox> Undercutting you? [2007-06-19 21:52:13] <Redemption> Going over his head. [2007-06-19 21:52:19] <Havac> I saw a problem and declared a penalty. [2007-06-19 21:52:37] <Havac> You went over my head and behind my back to reverse it. [2007-06-19 21:52:56] <Havac> That completely undercuts my authority and credibility the next time I ban or threaten a ban. [2007-06-19 21:53:18] <LucidFox> Bah! [2007-06-19 21:53:29] <Culator|Hereish> It's a valid point. [2007-06-19 21:53:29] <Havac> It says, "If you don't like mean nasy Havac's ban, just run to Sikon or WhiteBoy or any other admin who disagrees and he'll undo it for you." [2007-06-19 21:53:38] <Havac> *nasty [2007-06-19 21:53:47] <Redemption> Isn't that what Nebs does anyway? [2007-06-19 21:53:53] <Culator|Hereish> Every time. [2007-06-19 21:53:58] <LucidFox> I would unban him regardless. [2007-06-19 21:54:02] <Culator|Hereish> It's the only reason he ever comes on IRC. [2007-06-19 21:54:22] =-= Ozzel|Away is now known as Ozzel [2007-06-19 21:54:26] <Havac> Wouldn't it at least be appropriate to consult with me first? [2007-06-19 21:55:00] <Havac> Instead, I come out with an extremely absolute statement, and one IRC visit and it's gone. [2007-06-19 21:55:06] <LucidFox> No, because you would insist. '''[2007-06-19 21:56:25] <LucidFox> As I said, I don't insist that my actions are justified. [2007-06-19 21:56:25] <Havac> But it's your obligation as a bureacrat to enforce the rules. [2007-06-19 21:56:31] <Culator|Hereish> The compromise that I presented to Nebulax was agreed upon by WhiteBoy. [2007-06-19 21:56:34] <Culator|Hereish> [15:08] WhiteBoy: very good Culator /cheers [2007-06-19 21:56:38] <Havac> If you don't like the rules, you go to have them changed. [2007-06-19 21:56:56] <Havac> But you can't say you'll ignore them whenever you please. [2007-06-19 21:57:03] <LucidFox> Well, if _that_ is my obligation, I will immediately resign. [2007-06-19 21:57:09] <Culator|Hereish> Meaning the site's founder, the bureaucrat of bureaucrats, has no problem with permanently blocking him when he inevitably reverts. [2007-06-19 21:57:29] <Havac> What're you saying, there? [2007-06-19 21:57:33] <LucidFox> All right, now we're having a dispute on who is more equal than others. [2007-06-19 21:57:51] <Culator|Hereish> He has a week to reflect on his position, and next time Nebulax does anything blockable, he's gone. [2007-06-19 21:57:52] <Havac> LucidFox: it *is* your obligation. [2007-06-19 21:57:58] <Culator|Hereish> Period. [2007-06-19 21:58:01] <LucidFox> All right, then. [2007-06-19 21:58:02] <LucidFox> Bye. [2007-06-19 21:58:58] <LucidFox> However, next time you need help with something, don't call me, I won't have the technical ability to do so. Au revoir. [2007-06-19 21:59:05] <Havac> The last thing I want is to force you out. I like you. But if you're not willing to do the job as it's laid out to do. . . I don't think that's what adminship should be. [2007-06-19 21:59:37] <Havac> If you're uninterested in anything but technical powers, stay and keep the technical powers. [2007-06-19 21:59:39] <LucidFox> I don't wait to blindly enforce rules without at least considering if they're justified in a certain case. [2007-06-19 21:59:39] <Redemption> Don't take things so personally [2007-06-19 21:59:41] <Havac> But don't abuse the authority. [2007-06-19 21:59:46] <Culator|Hereish> So basically you want to hold the site hostage. [2007-06-19 22:00:07] <Culator|Hereish> "Let me do whatever I feel like doing, or I'll cease maintaining the systems I created." [2007-06-19 22:00:28] <LucidFox> No, I'll just cease maintaining them whenever the heck I decide to.''' [2007-06-19 22:00:42] <Havac> And we can't stop you. [2007-06-19 22:00:49] <LucidFox> Yes. [2007-06-19 22:00:50] <Havac> But that's not something anyone wants to see. [2007-06-19 22:01:26] <Havac> And LucidFox: rules are always up for discussion. [2007-06-19 22:01:46] <Havac> But as they stand they have to be enforced, or there's no point to having them. [2007-06-19 22:01:52] -->| Broox (n=Broox@c-75-75-116-98.hsd1.va.comcast.net) has joined #wookieepedia '''[2007-06-19 22:02:44] <LucidFox> That they're up for discussion is not the point. [2007-06-19 22:02:54] <Havac> What's the point? [2007-06-19 22:03:08] <Havac> That anyone should be able to blow off the rules any time they want to? [2007-06-19 22:03:18] <Havac> Why do we ban vandals, then? [2007-06-19 22:03:24] <LucidFox> Jack notwithstanding, I don't want to have a situation where I'm _obliged_ to enforce something by the book, even though common sense clearly says that it's not the best decision. [2007-06-19 22:03:25] <Redemption> He's saying he doesn't believe he should enforce rules he doesn't believe in. [2007-06-19 22:03:29] <Havac> They're simply deciding the rules are unjustified. [2007-06-19 22:03:47] <Havac> Common sense says no such thing. [2007-06-19 22:03:58] <LucidFox> As I said, Jack notwithstanding. [2007-06-19 22:03:59] <Havac> And you don't have to enforce them. [2007-06-19 22:04:09] <LucidFox> Yes, but someone else will. [2007-06-19 22:04:10] <Havac> You just shouldn't keep everyone else from enforcing them. [2007-06-19 22:04:45] <Havac> Then you're holding the rules and everyone else hostage to your conscience. [2007-06-19 22:04:52] <LucidFox> Is that what admins have evolved into? Mindless rubber stamps that go "policy violation, check"? [2007-06-19 22:04:55] <Havac> your personal decisions. [2007-06-19 22:05:05] <Havac> It becomes a dictatorship. [2007-06-19 22:05:29] <Havac> No, that's not their only role. [2007-06-19 22:05:34] <Havac> But they can't flaunt the rules.''' [2007-06-19 22:05:43] <Redemption> An admin needs to be neutral. Cold and lifeless. Not taking into account personal feelings. Just doing the job. [2007-06-19 22:05:55] <LucidFox> I disagree. [2007-06-19 22:06:05] <LucidFox> Admins are, first and foremost, humans. [2007-06-19 22:06:22] <Redemption> Well, there's nothing we can do about THAT> [2007-06-19 22:06:28] <Culator|Hereish> The simple fact is that we've been holding back on Jack until now. And for some reason you want to continue suspending the rules just for him. If we wanted to rubber stamp the forms, he'd have been banned months ago. [2007-06-19 22:06:30] <Broox> we can sure try [2007-06-19 22:06:38] <LucidFox> We're trying to build a community, not rule a country - so our primary responsibility is maintaining good relationships. [2007-06-19 22:06:50] <Culator|Hereish> And Nebulax chases people away. [2007-06-19 22:06:53] <Redemption> Broox, you get the sledge hammer. I'll get the axe. [2007-06-19 22:06:57] <Culator|Hereish> Not a point in his favor, there. [2007-06-19 22:06:59] <Broox> 10-4 [2007-06-19 22:07:11] <LucidFox> Okay. [2007-06-19 22:07:22] <LucidFox> I propose that we subject Nebulax to public arbitration. [2007-06-19 22:07:26] <Havac> nebulax undermines the community by bullying others. [2007-06-19 22:07:38] <Havac> Why? [2007-06-19 22:07:39] <Redemption> I wouldn't say bullying others... [2007-06-19 22:07:51] <LucidFox> Organize a special page for him, pile up the evidence, and then collectively decide his fate. [2007-06-19 22:07:55] <Culator|Hereish> Here's one of my favorites: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Talk:Reconnaissance_Troop_Transporter [2007-06-19 22:08:01] <Broox> I know I come from a diffrent school of thought but I feel admins should attempt to cut themselves off from the community as much as possible while still doing their job, that way they they are as nuteral as possible [2007-06-19 22:08:11] <Havac> Why does he deserve that? [2007-06-19 22:08:17] <Enochf> <Culator|Hereish> And Nebulax chases people away. <---agreement on that point [2007-06-19 22:08:23] <LucidFox> Because he's a long-term contributor. [2007-06-19 22:08:34] <LucidFox> Broox> No. Admins are still part of the community. They're contributors, just with extra buttons. [2007-06-19 22:08:35] <Havac> *So?* [2007-06-19 22:08:36] <Culator|Hereish> He's a bot. A malfunctioning one at that. [2007-06-19 22:08:37] |<-- Atrox has left freenode (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) [2007-06-19 22:08:37] <Broox> rules are rules [2007-06-19 22:08:49] <Broox> and if the community is taking a beating say so long [2007-06-19 22:08:54] <Broox> better off without him [2007-06-19 22:08:58] <Havac> I don't care if he's a long-term contributor. [2007-06-19 22:08:59] <Culator|Hereish> Has Nebulax ever actually *written* anything? [2007-06-19 22:09:06] <Havac> He's a long-term violator, too. [2007-06-19 22:09:26] <Redemption> Contributor or not, he is on the same level as someone who just registered. [2007-06-19 22:09:26] <Havac> I said when I became an admin that I would try to treat everyone fairly. [2007-06-19 22:09:37] <Culator|Hereish> Has he ever done anything but adjust linebreaks and scare noobs? [2007-06-19 22:09:37] <LucidFox> Redemption> no, he's not. [2007-06-19 22:09:38] <Havac> Not give established users preferential treatment. [2007-06-19 22:09:41] <Havac> That's a good thing. [2007-06-19 22:09:47] <LucidFox> Contributors are judged by their contributions. [2007-06-19 22:09:57] <Havac> Why is Nebulax on a level over everyone else? [2007-06-19 22:10:12] <Havac> If they're judged by that, Sikon, he should have been out long ago. [2007-06-19 22:10:35] <Havac> The fact that you are acclimated to his jackassery does not stop it being jackassery. '''[2007-06-19 22:10:39] <LucidFox> As I said: let's do a public process. If the community decides that Nebulax should be gone, I will abide by that decision. [2007-06-19 22:11:01] <LucidFox> After all, this is what Wikipedia does. The Arbitration Committee and such. [2007-06-19 22:11:13] <Havac> WP:NOT#Wikipedia [2007-06-19 22:11:21] <Culator|Hereish> Fine. After his week is up. We came to a group decision to block for at least a week earlier today. [2007-06-19 22:11:27] <LucidFox> Stock excuse, and I'm not even considering that one. [2007-06-19 22:11:28] <Broox> No, admins have powers fro a reason [2007-06-19 22:11:29] <Ozzel> That would just feel like we're voting someone off the island. [2007-06-19 22:11:30] <Broox> use them [2007-06-19 22:11:38] <Broox> don't put the buirden on the community [2007-06-19 22:11:43] <Havac> Exactly. [2007-06-19 22:11:58] <LucidFox> Ozzel> It's still better than blocking him unilaterally after a private discussion on IRC. [2007-06-19 22:12:06] <Havac> No it isn't. [2007-06-19 22:12:07] <Broox> and having a open forum is asking for disaster [2007-06-19 22:12:15] <Havac> It's worse. [2007-06-19 22:12:20] -->| MaceWindu (i=ac918d1f@gateway/web/cgi-irc/irc.wikia.com/x-dfca355003898a8a) has joined #wookieepedia [2007-06-19 22:12:21] <Havac> He was blocked in accordance with policy. [2007-06-19 22:12:26] <LucidFox> Listen. [2007-06-19 22:12:31] <Broox> because as soon as we have one it will become the inquisition [2007-06-19 22:12:34] <Havac> Saying he's above policy is worse. [2007-06-19 22:12:35] <Redemption> And technically, if I'm here, then it's not private. [2007-06-19 22:12:43] <LucidFox> I'm offering a compromise, and you're not accepting even that. [2007-06-19 22:12:51] <Havac> Because it's not a compromise. [2007-06-19 22:12:52] <LucidFox> "You would make a good Dalek, Doctor." [2007-06-19 22:12:55] <Havac> It's Nebulax wins. [2007-06-19 22:12:59] <LucidFox> See you. [2007-06-19 22:13:02] <--| LucidFox has left #wookieepedia ("Konversation terminated!")''' [2007-06-19 22:13:05] <Havac> It's he gets a big egoistic fanfarre. [