Talk:Mitth'raw'nuruodo/Legends

Name
Now just how many people are actually going to search for him using his real name? The title is fine as it is. -- Riffsyphon1024 07:46, 5 May 2005 (UTC)
 * While most fans refer to this character as "Grand Admiral Thrawn", titling the article by his full name (or at least just Thrawn) and having "Grand Admiral Thrawn" redirect would seem more encyclopedic in nature. This is a larger issue overall, but this seems to be a popular article (and a popular character), so why not start here? --SparqMan 06:57, 5 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Move it to Mitth'raw'nurodo. We should name char articles by their name, not rank or title.--Eion 07:02, 5 May 2005 (UTC)
 * I definitely think articles should point to names, not rank and names. People change ranks all the time, including our mains (should we be searching for Captain Solo or General Solo?).  Thrawn's a touchier issue; I'd normally say go with full name, but Thrawn is FAR better known by his core name than his full name of Mitth'raw'nuruodo, and anyone who would know to type *that* into a search engine (and pull it off without misspelling it!) already probably knows as much about the character as the article. ;-) JSarek 07:03, 5 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Which is why we have Redirect pages. There is already one from Thrawn to Grand Admiral Thrawn. We shouldn't consider popularity in article names, only whether the name is correct.--Eion 07:05, 5 May 2005 (UTC)
 * The thing is, the name IS correct; it's a legitimate form of his name, and the name under which he served in the Imperial Navy, the time when the bulk of his known biographical data is from. JSarek 07:11, 5 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Yeah, plus the whole Chiss public/private name thing; I see where you're going. Agree. Thrawn is the correct choice.--Eion 07:29, 5 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Are two spoiler tags necessary in one article? --Fade 13:51, 5 May 2005 (UTC)
 * maybe not his full name, but why not remove his rank. We also knew him as a commander, and captain--Eion 14:03, 5 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Agreed. JSarek 18:52, 5 May 2005 (UTC)


 * How about keeping the article at his full name, and instead have plenty of redirects? That way, anyone searching for Thrawn gets redirected to his full name. --Imp 18:47, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * No opinions? --Imp 22:13, 27 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * It's hard to say. He took the name "Thrawn" and used it himself more commonly than his full Chiss name. By used I mean that he must have introduced himself as such to his subordinates, or they would not call him "Grand Admiral Thrawn". When characters choose to alter their name (like with Lumpwaroo or Lumiya), we have to decide which name to use. My mind isn't made up in this case and it may warrant community discussion before setting a precedent. --SparqMan 03:24, 28 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Focus
The current state of the article is a good example of shaky encyclopedic style. For example, instead of saying," About ten years later, Luke Skywalker and Mara Jade discovered that, hidden on the planet Nirauan in the Unknown Regions, Thrawn's most devoted followers held a fortress called the Hand of Thrawn" it might say "Thrawn used the Spaarti cloning technology that support his campaign against the New Republic to create a clone of himself. Although it was destroyed by Luke Skywalker and Mara Jade before enter animation..." etc. It can be difficult, but we must write the article about the topic, not merely its relation to major protagonists. --SparqMan 00:32, 18 May 2005 (UTC)

Chronological Order
Shouldn't the article be written in chronological order of Thrawn's career and life rather than in the order of his appearances in Lucas-owned media (i.e. Heir to the Empire information comes before TIE Fighter information, yet the events of the PC game took place before the novel)? I could rewrite it to be such, but I wanted to make certain there wasn't a reason the order in which the article is currently.--SOCL 13:55, 30 May 2005 (UTC)
 * The current order is probably a remnant of the older 'out of universe' perspectives. Either way, it should be in chronological order (as you would expect in a biography). Just make sure you proof-read if you do change it, as you seem to make lots of little mistakes here and there.--Fade 14:04, 30 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Speaking of chronological, as I touched on above, should it mention his establishment of the Hand of Thrawn before his campaign against the New Republic, rather than when we discovered it?--SparqMan 20:58, 30 May 2005 (UTC)
 * If I'm understanding right then yes, as I gather that you're referring to a plot device meaning that it was secret from everyone else until a certain point, which would have no bearing on the fact that it actually happened/was set up before it was discovered by protagonists. --Fade 15:23, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * I'd like some comments on the timeline here: http://starwars.wikicities.com/wiki/Thrawn/Temp - I think there are some pieces missing from SparqMan's review.Prime 02:35, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Your link was broken,, the correct link is http://starwars.wikicities.com/wiki/Thrawn/temp -- Riffsyphon1024 02:56, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Please add anything you find missing on the outline I made. I plan to rewrite the article to include a chronological flow (acknowledging the discrepencies on when he was promoted to Grand Admiral), and pull out a section on his strategy and personality. --SparqMan 15:45, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Redo
I put up the bare basics of a rewritten article. It is missing many smaller references, in part because I didn't have them on hand, and also due to the difficult chronology of Thrawn's story. If you feel comfortable, please add in details. --SparqMan 15:36, 24 Jul 2005 (UTC)

Succession box
I have removed that "Emperor" succession box. At no point did Thrawn claim the title of, style himself as, aspire to be, nor receive proclamation as tthe Emperor. Let's keep that kind of fan expansionism out. --SparqMan 17:46, 2 Aug 2005 (UTC)
 * True; however, it could be argued that during what has been referred to as his "shogunate," he was Emperor de facto if not de jure.Thanos6 18:18, 2 Aug 2005 (UTC)
 * Yes, but would a shogun show up on a list of Emperors? jSarek 18:20, 2 Aug 2005 (UTC)
 * Arguably, if the Imperial throne was vacant (as it was), and the shogun was the highest-ranking ruler left (as, when Thrawn reappeared, all of Isard's support as Empress disappeared).Thanos6 18:24, 2 Aug 2005 (UTC)
 * Technically, the Imperial throne *wasn't* vacant, as Palpatine had been reborn on Byss by this stage. QuentinGeorge 21:27, 2 Aug 2005 (UTC)
 * But Palpatine wasn't RULING THE EMPIRE, nor did he until the events of DE.Thanos6 22:19, 2 Aug 2005 (UTC)
 * Warlord Zsinj possessed a sizeable fleet while no one sat on the throne, along with several other warlords, moffs, et al. The people that could you could argue for inclusion on that list beyond Palpatine (original and clone) would be Sate Pestage and perhaps Isard. --SparqMan 21:36, 2 Aug 2005 (UTC)
 * The warlords, though, did not have the support of the Inner Circle on Coruscant (as Pestage and Isard and, yes, Thrawn did). And the grand moffs, the other legitimate arm of the government, supported Trioculus and Kadann.  Anyway, I suggest a compromise: list Thrawn as "Emperor (de jure)".Thanos6 22:19, 2 Aug 2005 (UTC)
 * That is still incorrect. Thrawn had no role in the political workings of the Empire, nor any political or independent financial support. He was a Grand Admiral, and commanded the fleet remnants made available to him. Nothing more. --SparqMan 22:43, 2 Aug 2005 (UTC)

Yuuzhan Vong
Do we know for a fact that Thrawn encountered the Yuuzhan Vong, or is that a revisionist theory? -- SFH 16:20, 5 Sep 2005 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure if we've seen an IU confirmation of that, but Zahn has said it's what he meant, but couldn't reveal NJO information at the time. That too could be revisionist. --SparqMan 17:29, 5 Sep 2005 (UTC)

New Picture, Please?
Could we please for the sake of everything that is good and pure get a different picture for Thrawn, other than the one that looks like it might as well be some dip in a Halloween costume? I'm just begging on the grounds of decency...--Spanky The Dolphin 03:12, 30 Oct 2005 (UTC) in "Summary", check "I affirm that the copyright holder of this file agrees to license it under the terms of the Star Wars copyright", and upload it. --Master Starkeiller 18:06, 30 Oct 2005 (UTC)
 * I don't see what's wrong with it. It's the only photo we got of him, it's the same one the Databank uses, so we might as well keep it. --Master Starkeiller 07:26, 30 Oct 2005 (UTC)
 * I have a pair of pictures that look much better than the one we have in the article, including one that's format matches the same drawing style as the one used for the other grand admirals...I just don't know how to upload pictures...--SOCL 16:31, 30 Oct 2005 (UTC)
 * Go to the "upload file" option at the toolbox, or through "Special Pages". Then click "Browse" and browse for the pic or just write the filename, add a description and a or a  or a  or a


 * While the image is a bit tacky, I think we should find a place for Image:Thrawn.jpg because it represents the only canon, non-illustration image of Thrawn. The ugly Mara Jade, Talon Karrde and Corran Horn "real person" images have made it up. I think this image should too. --SparqMan 02:19, 21 Nov 2005 (UTC)

Galaxies
Isn't he in one of the Galaxies expansion packs? Kuralyov 14:49, 31 Oct 2005 (UTC)
 * I've never played the games, but I remeber reading something about a Captain Thrawn somewhere. I'll get back to you on that. -- SFH 20:18, 2 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * My brother actually has a screenshot of Captain Thrawn back from when he used to play the game, so yeah, he's in it.--Spanky The Dolphin 23:59, 2 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * Could you post it here? Kuralyov 00:59, 3 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * IIRC, he hangs around the Emperor's Retreat on Naboo. QuentinGeorge 05:06, 3 Nov 2005 (UTC)

Lead in quote
This article needs a good lead in quote, but I can't think of one that is note worthy or descriptive enough. -- SFH 20:18, 2 Nov 2005 (UTC)

May I suggest "But....it was so artistically done" ? Gothymog 20:45, 2 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * Quotes have to be about the person. Cmdr. J. Nebulax 20:47, 2 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * I don't think it needs a lead in quotation. Most quotations I can find refering to Thrawn are rather disparaging. --SparqMan 00:10, 3 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * Well, we could always add in a quote from the New Republic or something&mdash;a quote to show how bad a threat Thrawn was or something like that. If such a quote exists. Cmdr. J. Nebulax 00:15, 3 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * The Final Prophecy has a brilliant line; someone wonders what Thrawn would have made of the YV. Wedge answers - "Ground Vong." Then takes a beat, and adds, "If he could have gotten hold of an example of their art, of course.... " --86.131.253.100 00:55, 3 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * How about the "just call me Thrawn" but from Mist Enconter? Of course I can't remember exactly what the Imperial said before that...That NJO quote sounds good, too. Kuralyov 01:00, 3 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * Does the quote need to be full of praise? He may have been worthy of admiration, but lets not forget that, in the end, Thrawn was a villian. But since I'm not able to think of a good quote myself, I'll take what I can get. -- SFH 01:12, 3 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * Thrawn's villiany is debateable. Certainly he was the antagonist of the Thrawn trilogy, but being an effective and loyal Imperial officer doesn't necessarily make him a villain.
 * Also keep in mind SW seems to be trending toward ambiguity lately. Consider Darth Revan- when you compare Thrawn and Revan the similarities are striking, especially when you consider the Chiss and Thrawn's mini-Empire he seems to have built up in preparation for the Vong; Revan does much the same thing vis-a-vis the Old Republic and the Old Sith Smpire. --Maru  (talk) Contribs 03:04, 9 Nov 2005 (UTC)

--Master Starkeiller 21:52, 9 Nov 2005 (UTC) "Grand Admiral Thrawn was undeniably one of the most capable, cunning soldiers the Emperor commanded. He was also one of the biggest enigmas in the Imperial military: a non-human given high rank in an intolerant, human dominated regime; a brilliant tactician who studied the customs and thought patterns of the peoples he conquered, yet whose own mind was unknown to those around him."
 * How's about, "When you understand a species' art, you understand that species." That at least sums up his strategic and tactical methods. --SparqMan 01:45, 3 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * That's fine with me. -- SFH 03:48, 3 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * I prefer the The Final Prophecy one. --Master Starkeiller 11:14, 6 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * What is that quote? Cmdr. J. Nebulax 21:22, 9 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * The Final Prophecy has a brilliant line; someone wonders what Thrawn would have made of the YV. Wedge answers - "Ground Vong." Then takes a beat, and adds, "If he could have gotten hold of an example of their art, of course.... " --86.131.253.100 00:55, 3 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * That's pretty good, but we'd need the full quote, of course. Cmdr. J. Nebulax 21:59, 9 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * Eh, it's a good line, but I don't think it works as a serious introductory quote about the character. Can anyone find the quote by Mara Jade from the original Thrawn Trilogy where she's explaining that the Grand Admirals were the best, and that Thrawn was the best of them?  jSarek 22:06, 9 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * I'll look for it. Cmdr. J. Nebulax 23:31, 9 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * How about this one, from The Thrawn Trilogy Sourcebook:

- Pollo Tipn, assistant to New Republic historian Voren Na'al

"This one is constantly thinking, analyzing, strategizing. He showed no fear, but was curious, studying me in turn."
 * That's perfect. I'll add it in. Cmdr. J. Nebulax 12:14, 23 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * It's far too long. It's also very boring and fails to sum up Thrawn in any poetic manner&mdash;it simply literally defines him. --SparqMan 15:36, 23 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * While I agree it is a little long, I must disagree with your next points. Quotes are supposed to describe the person, as this one does. Whether it is boring or not poetic doesn't matter. Cmdr. J. Nebulax 15:54, 23 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * All other quotes we have are either poetic or humorous. This is just a long dull paragraph. It sums Thrawn up perfectly, but still it's not right. --Master Starkeiller 19:25, 23 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * I still don't see why quotes have to be poetic or humorous. It talks about Thrawn. But, since others disagree, I'll remove it. Admiral J. Nebulax 22:10, 23 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * There's a whole log entry from Palpatine about Thrawn in The Essential Guide to Alien Species, from which there are several possible quotes that are shorter and/or more humorous than Pollo's quote:

- Emperor Palpatine

"I am intrigued, to say the least. And I could see that he was as intrigued with me. I could sense that he did recognize me as a threat, but wasn't fearful of harm.  He simply studied me as a potential opponent."

- Emperor Palpatine

"I am amused. I believe I will watch his new career with interest."

- Emperor Palpatine


 * We should add all three of those in, along with or instead of the current one. Admiral J. Nebulax 23:41, 23 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * I really like the last one.TIEPilot051999 23:49, 23 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * Well, if I had to choose, I'd say the first one, but I don't want to start a vote. Admiral J. Nebulax 23:50, 23 Nov 2005 (UTC)

Ysalamir
While renditions of Grand Admiral Thrawn holding a ysalamir may be trivial, I think it deserves mention in the Behind the Scenes section. Because it is quite abundant actually, even when Joruus C'baoth was nowhere to be seen. -- SFH 15:53, 28 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * I agree. I was actually going to add it back in after it was taken out, but I did not. Admiral J. Nebulax 15:56, 28 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * Are we going to add that Han Solo is usually shown wearing a white shirt, navy vest and navy pants? --SparqMan 17:46, 28 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * Since when have Ysalamiri been common fashion accessories? --Fade 18:04, 28 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * SparqMan: If he is always shown with ysalamiri, it should be metioned. And as for your remark involving Han Solo, that would be plain stupid. Plus, he doesn't even wear that all the time. Admiral J. Nebulax 19:54, 28 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * Yes, in the Thrawn Trilogy comic series he is often shown with one on his shoulder to protect himself from Luke Skywalker and Joruus C'baoth. I still fail to see why this deserves notation in "Behind the scenes". If you want to include an image with a ysalamir draped over his shoulders, it may be appropriate to note his common use of one during his final campaign in the caption. --SparqMan 20:59, 28 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * Then that should be done. Admiral J. Nebulax 22:41, 28 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * Like this one? And not just the Thrawn comics. He's also seen holding one in both of the Essential Chronologies, and the New Essential Guide to Characters. I also think his miniatures figure is holding one, but I don't play the RPGs so I'm not sure. And I didn't say he always wears one, I said that he is "often" shown with one. -- SFH 22:57, 28 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * That's a good picture. That should be added, along with a good caption. Admiral J. Nebulax 23:59, 28 Nov 2005 (UTC)