Talk:Anakin Skywalker/Legends

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Feature article?
i have no idea how to do it properly by i recommend this article for feature article status. this is the best written article in the whole of wookieepedia particularly the section on how why anakin help save luke. jackchen123

Hello there, You might be looking for Featured_article, Please read the instructions on how to nominate, you can also sign your name by placing four tildes. May The Force Be With You! Fatguy2006 01:42, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
 * You could also put the nominated tag on the top of the article. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 03:38, 9 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I second the nomination for Anakin to be nominated for featured article status. I think at long last after all the hard work everyone has put into it, Anakin is finally ready. Anyone else agree/disagree? Impassioned Jedi 21:38, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
 * This isn't the place for it. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 22:18, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Some-sort-of-jedi Anakin Thomas 07:19, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
 * N it ain't Mr. Jedi!!
 * That was kind of pointless... Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 13:35, 31 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Its been over a month since this was nominated, and little progress has been made in support of Anakin being a Featured Article. Since I nominated him this time, I would like to withdraw his nomination. (Plus there are as much objections as people support it, ouch!) - Impassioned Jedi 19:55, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Still, it was nominated, so you really can't remove the tag. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) (Data file) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 20:54, 17 August 2006 (UTC)


 * You have a good point, that was a little bit of defeatism kicking in. I nominated it, so I should stay the course and contribute any way I can to improve the Anakin article. Thanks for giving me that needed kick in the rear end. lol Impassioned Jedi 22:30, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
 * No problem. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) (Data file) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 23:02, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Talents?
it needs a talents section, agreed? Jedi Dude 21:19, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Considering most other articles do, I suppose so. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 23:56, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Talent section? No problem, I'll see what I can do. Impassioned Jedi 08:10 ,13 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Looks good. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 12:00, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

i also put powers and potential section with quotes from novels... Jibers
 * Please remember to use the quote template next time, though. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 19:22, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Heyyy...someone removed my quotes from the section i created ,,,why...and what do u mean by quote template...how do i use it? i want the qoutes put up back there..... Jibers
 * If you look, they're still in the article. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 20:20, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

guys i thought he was form 5 all the time but the article said he used form 4, in every book and insider i've read it said anakin practiced form 5 in episode 2 and 3. could sombody please clarify this.

Technobabble1
 * I'm pretty sure it's in one of the Visual Dictionaries. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 23:37, 12 August 2006 (UTC)


 * i always thought the visual diccionary was mistaken pinning form 4 on anakin. that was the first source with the 7 forms i think and every source afterwards says anakin has been a form 5 practioner because of its power--Black Jack Scarron 00:06, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, a Jedi can practice more than one form. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 00:11, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Didn't it say somewhere he changed to form V after his loss to Dooku? .  .  .  .  00:16, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I think so, although I'm not sure where. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 00:17, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, I don't think there's anything that said that he didnt use IV during AOTC. .  .  .  .  00:24, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

A Spirit's Age
In ROTJ, when Anakin is a Spirit, is that the 22 yr old Anakin, or is that what Anakin would had looked like at the age of 45? Double D 13:57, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
 * It's the 22-year-old Anakin. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 16:23, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

It is, O.K., but he looks like he's a gerneration old when he's a spirit. Plus I thought in the old version, since he's 45, i figure that was the age of the new version. Double D 12:55, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
 * No, they just apparently wanted to show Anakin from RotS. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 13:32, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

OK, so does that mean he's 45 even those it's the 1 from ROTS, or is he still 22? It's just that Obi-Wan's spirit appears as 57 (or 61, on the fact that he's 4 yrs older than we he died), and Yoda appears 900. So how can Anakin be 22, when he's lived 23 yrs longer than that? Double D 01:08, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
 * While it's the 22-year-old Anakin being seen, the spirit is probably still 45 years old. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 01:12, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

OK, I thing a understand it now. That examples why even those he's in his 22 yrs old appearence, he seems to look as mature as a 45 yr old man. Double D 01:54, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm just guessing, though. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 13:35, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Power and Force potential image
I was wondering what picture would look good in the "Power and Force potential" section. There seems to be some minor disagreement. I think the current one is okay, but I don't like it. However, I want to avoid an editing war. I did find some images that I think would be suitable to nominate. Of course, we can always keep it as is. Impassioned Jedi 06:29, 30th July 2006 (UTC)


 * Keep it as is. These ones here aren't as good. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 14:36, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

change the picture...its rubbish...hey admiral...how do u like the power and force potential section i wrote up? do i get any awards for doing these things...i also did the chosen 1 article in the vader page and the lightsaber training write up...i will do another 1 in 2 days...by the way i dont know how 2 use the templates like u said...all ur names are in blue in these discussions ...how do i do that..my name does not appear on what i write and i have to put it up...help...(i have 2 do waht i just said now)...jibers
 * The picture is fine, and it's going to stay. And the section is fine now. No, you don't get any awards. And I really can't explain how to use those templates here. And if you want to sign your name, put ~ ~ ~ ~ at the end of your posts, without the spaces. And these talk pages are not the place to ask questions like those. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 12:30, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

what do u mean i cant ask quesions like that? Jibers 23:16, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
 * This type of talk page is not the place to ask those questions. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 14:30, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Anakin's Hand
Anakin appears, as said, in his pre-fall form on Endor as a force ghost. However, can it be seen in this shot if he's wearing his glove? This would signify how prostetics carry over when someone becomes one with the force.


 * If it is, it shouldn't, I don't think so anyway...Anakin..can we officially say that Anakin went over to the dark side when his mom died? He had both arms there, thats just what I think..Some-sort-of-jedi Anakin Thomas 07:22, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Anakin didn't fall to the dark side until 19 BBY. But I don't think his prostetics carried over. Plus, don't forget that his limbs also "died"&mdash;shouldn't they have Force ghosts that reconnect to Anakin's Force ghost? ;) Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 13:35, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't think we can see enough of his hands to determine. Another interesting question is whether his scar is visible.  I can't tell in the images here.  Powers 16:05, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
 * It probably isn't. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 19:10, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
 * GL has stated that the representation of Anakin at the end of ROTJ is how Anakin looked just before he fell to the darkside. And since he had lost his arm before then we would see him with a prosphetic arm in his Force Ghost apparition. Jasca Ducato 09:17, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
 * or just one arm...ghosts might not be able to show the cubernetic parts Jedi Dude 09:30, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Was a glove over Force ghost Anakin's right hand at the end of RotJ? Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 22:26, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I can't tell. The images we have here don't show his hand. Jasca Ducato 11:52, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Right Eye Scar?
I personally haven't been able to see it, but after Vader is unmasked, and we see Sebastian Shaw revealed, does he have the scar that was prominent in RotS?

They did a lot of editing to him for the DVD (erasing eyebrows and such) but could they have forgotten to ADD his scar, or is it just hidden by the shadows?

Or is there something I haven't read where he uses bacta on it (or something of similar affect)? Or does it imply that Asajj Ventress really didn't slash him as well as she thought? Void In Paradise 06:48, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
 * At the time the Episode VI DVD was made, I don't think anyone was aware of the scar on his eye (I believe the Force ghost doesn't have it either). Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 11:39, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Too many images?
Okay, I don't know about anyone else, but the article as of now has too many images. This is causing many images to appear almost side-by-side. Therefore, I'm suggesting that we come up with a list of pictures to be removed. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) 22:29, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
 * It has a lot of images, but I don't see anything that seems side by side. I do think we should set limits about any more being added, however. - Angel Blue 451 23:21, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
 * You probably have a different screen resolution than me. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 00:58, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
 * There are a lot of images yes, but I think they all chronically detail all the essential moments in Anakin's life. I personally don't think anymore images should be added though. It has just the right amount to appear in-depth, but not cluttered. Plus think about it, Anakin is Star Wars' central character. It just seems fitting his article would include the most in depth information, pictures, etc. about such a character. But I am just one man here, what say everyone else? Impassioned Jedi 01:19, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Too many images...definitely. I picked these out to be yanked. Though other images also need to be rearranged no matter what. -- Redemption Talk [[Image:Oldrepublic.jpg|15px]] 01:23, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

EDIT: After tough deliberation, I decided to rip one more image from the article, it was the image of Vader marching on the Jedi Temple. How does the new image layout look? - Impassioned Jedi 05:00, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm fine with the removal of those two images. Also, my screen resolution is 1152 x 864. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 22:28, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
 * All right, I went ahead and ripped the two images, I think the article looks much more streamlined now. What say you?
 * Looks good. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) (Data file) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 14:10, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I was thinking, should we take out another image? Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 20:04, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Main image
Would this be a great Main Image? -- Jabbathehuttgartogg   00:45, 17 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Anakin's too far away in that one. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 00:48, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I prefer the current one. -- Ozzel 00:59, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
 * As do I, keep it as is. - Impassioned Jedi 05:52 17 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Current one. Jasca Ducato 11:22, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 16:06, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Sorry Jabba but I like the current one better.  Jaina Solo  Goddess Stuff [[Image:JainaPurple.jpg |30px]] 16:10, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
 * To quote Palpatine: "Then it is decided" (Imperial March starts playing in background). Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 16:16, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Anakin should have lost to the powers of Count Dooku
How could Anakin possibly beat Dooku, a man who does not spas out, cry, of piss himself like Anakin. Not to mention he has a higher command of the force and is one of the best people ever trained in both lightsaber skill and force mastery, according to Yoda (just so you know Im not basing this on opinion). But obviously also, if Dooku could easily overwhelm Obi-Wan, but not Anakin, than how come Obi-Wan deafeats Anakin when he was bested by Dooku and Anakin was not? error...I am Nebulax...cyborg...no opinions allowed, human...no...that does not compute...error..I have to pull this stick out my ass...over...GET A LIFE NEBULAX, DAMN
 * Because sometimes things just don't work out the way we expect them to. But, unfortunately, this is not the proper forum for these types of discussions. -  Angel Blue 451 (Holonet)[[Image:Jedi_Order.jpg|20px]] 00:07, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Is it ok to delete this? It's just a wasting space.--Darth OblivionComlink[[Image:Oldsith.png|30px]] 00:10, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
 * As much as it's wasting space, I'd say no. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 00:22, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
 * How is this wasting space? its a disussion? Its an interesting topic too unlike the rest of these discussions.
 * Anyway, despite how you guys wrongly view this discussion, Dooku would have owned Anakin if it were not for the terrible ideas in episode three made by george lucus, if it were real Anakin would have died easily.
 * Keep your opinions off of talk pages. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 00:44, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Its not an opinion, it is true and where can you talk on this site, what is the discussion page used for, Nebulax, are you even human, you block me from everything, you have no fun, why dont you talk instead of being a damn robot,
 * If you want to express your opinions, find a forum to bug. Wookieepedia is not a forum. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 11:13, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
 * HAHAHA, "Pull the stick out your ass" thats a great one, you should take his advice Nebulax, it would do you good.
 * Shut up, anon. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 19:13, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Is it me or do several of these anons sound like the the same guy?--Darth OblivionComlink[[Image:Oldsith.png|30px]] 19:26, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Most likely the same. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 19:29, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Just to end this the reason why Anakin won is because when Dooku harmed Obi Wan, he realesed his anger and became more powerful than Dooku. That's why he won. You should read the novel before asking stupid questions. Obi Wan only won because Anakin was flawed and not as wise, thus he jumped when Obi had the high ground.-Anakin Skywalker 1 13:36, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Slave to Gardulla
How much information is there on Anakin's life as Gardulla's slave. I can't find anything on it here at my desk. If there is anything on his Gardulla the Hutt slave life I'd like to know where. -- Jabbathehuttgartogg ( Rancor pit )  00:21, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure it's really covered anywhere, other than the brief mention in Phantom Menace. I could be wrong though. -  Angel Blue 451 [[Image:Jedi_Order.jpg|20px]](Holonet) 00:32, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Ok, so how is what I wrote a "waste of space" and this pointless crap not a waste of space? I mean come on, why do you care? really get a life dude.
 * This is far more important. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 00:44, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I mean, really, I lose sleep over this kind of stuff man, I really want to know about Gardulla and slave boy wooo ITS SOOOO INTERESTING! (SARCASM) This would only be interesting to homos with sticks up thier ass like Nebulax and idiotic Anakin fans!
 * Im sorry, its FLEET ASSHOLE J. NEBULAX
 * Anon, enough with name calling, it is uncalled-for. -  Angel Blue 451 [[Image:Jedi_Order.jpg|20px]](Holonet) 01:15, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Anon, you're the only one here without a life. Leave us alone. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 11:12, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Im sure if he was the one without a life, he would make a gay character up like Nebulax, man your all fags, Anon seems to be the best one here.
 * I'm sure if he didn't have a life he'd go on a Star Wars wiki and complain about how Anakin whined too much and should've been beaten by Dooku. Oh, wait... -- I need a name 18:15, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Can we get back on topic? Unless of curse if noone has any canon info. on Annie's Gardulla life. -- Jabbathehuttgartogg ( Rancor pit ) [[Image:Grappa's Tattoo.jpg|20px]] 18:45, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
 * First these anons need to either be banned or go get a life. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 19:13, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
 * There's some mention of Anakin's enslavement to Gardulla the Hutt in The New Essential Guide to Characters, which I believe is taken from the Episode I Adventures books.
 * Please don't post in the middle of a discussion. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 23:26, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Sorry, but I didn't want to get caught up in the argument. I'm just trying to help post some information.
 * Unfortunately, it's a lot harder to find a new post if it's in the middle of a discussion. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 14:48, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Too many quotes?

 * As per the improvement drive nomination, some people have been talking that the Anakin Skywalker article has way too many quotes and needs to be cleaned up. I would have to agree with this statement. - Impassioned Jedi 22:31 10 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, I don't. There should be a vote. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 00:10, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I see there's been some re-organizing. I like the new layout of quotes actually. -Impassioned Jedi 00:48, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
 * There should still be a vote to determine if the article should include all those quotes that were removed. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 19:09, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I have to agree with Jack here. I don't see anything wrong with the quotes we had.  There should be a vote.  We can't just change something like that without a consensus. -  Angel Blue  (Holonet) 19:15, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Exactly. A vote is needed to decide this. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 22:01, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Chosen one
So is he the chosen one? At first I didnt doubt it but now that Jacen is a sith... well with Anakin being dead how can he destroy the sith? Just asking.-Anakin Skywalker 1 01:00, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
 * It was confirmed by Lucas that Anakin was the Chosen One. Jaina Solo ( Goddess Stuff ) [[Image:Jaina_sig.jpg |25px]] 01:15, 13 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I thought so. Thanks Solo.-Anakin Skywalker 1 01:46, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
 * It's in the article, though. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 11:26, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
 * You're welcome. - Jaina Solo ( Goddess Stuff ) [[Image:Jaina_sig.jpg |25px]] 11:46, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
 * You had me confused there for a second, Jaina... I was thinking, why did she say that to me? But I get it now. ;) Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 21:05, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Being dead never stopped anyone in Star Wars, did it? But I see your point, the re-emergence of the Sith detracts from the films. But Palpatine came back ages ago, so I suppose it was already done. But it doesn't really bother me, because the Sith never got close to destroying the Jedi after Anakin destroyed Palpatine. Except for this moronic Legacy series... .  .  .  .  02:53, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeah.I havent read to many so now I know for sure that Plpatine came back. Guess I gotta read more.-Anakin Skywalker 1 13:29, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
 * If you want to read about how Palpatine beat death, read Dark Empire, Dark Empire II, and Empire's End. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 13:38, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Im go to the bookstore in a week.-Anakin Skywalker 1 13:43, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
 * You're welcome. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 13:48, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

A theory on Anakin's conception
I had a thought recently. I don't know if you remember this quote from Revenge of the Sith: "Darth Plagueis was a Dark Lord of the Sith so powerful and so wise that he could use the Force to influence the Midi-chlorians to create life."

- Supreme Chancellor Palpatine/Darth Sidious to Anakin Skywalker

It occurred to me that this could have been how Anakin was conceived. If this theory is correct, then Anakin's father was Darth Plagueis. --StarSword 9:33 24 Oct. 2006 Quick question. How is it possible for Palpatine to be one of the candidates for Anakin's 'father'? We know he's incapable of manipulating the midi-chlorians to create life from Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader. Sure, if Lucas comes out and says "Sidious was the one who made Anakin", fair enough, but he hasn't.(Ulicus 16:32, 6 November 2006 (UTC))
 * Already mentioned in the article, see the Anakin's possible father section. Green Tentacle (Talk) 13:46, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Plus, it's been discussed&mdash;and disputed&mdash;a lot of times already. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 20:42, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
 * My bad. StarSword
 * Check the second talk archive... I think that's where the discussions were held. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 20:09, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Wait, how is it stated in Dark Lord? Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 22:12, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Precisely as above. Sidious states outright he can't manipulate the midis to create life - \\Captain Kwenn// &mdash; Ahoy! 22:15, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Or he is just trying to deceive someone? Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 22:16, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
 * No, the chapter is presented from his POV, looking into his thoughts. He muses that, had Anakin died on Mustafar, he "would have had to discover a way to compel midi-chlorians to do his bidding, and bring into being one as powerful as Anakin" (p133 hardback). He hasn't previously discovered the secret - \\Captain Kwenn// &mdash; Ahoy! 22:22, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, let's not count Palpatine as down and out just yet. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 22:24, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Hero Cycle
Recently I added a piece in the 'Behind the Scenes' section regarding Anakin's matching of the 'standard hero,' something I found very interesting. I worked hard on this, but I cannot figure out a way to tidy up the list. Could someone help me please? Thank you very much. -67.34.186.30 02:36, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
 * UPDATE- I also recently added a similar Hero Cycle list on Luke Skywalker's page. -67.34.186.30 19:28, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Isn't the Hero's Journey the more well-known version of this? "The Call to Adventure" the Crossing of the Thresholds etc? - \\Captain Kwenn// &mdash; Ahoy! 19:43, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Really? I've never heard of that. If I would have I might have done that instead. -67.34.186.30 21:11, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Hero's Journey from Hero With a Thousand Faces. It's commonly held that this is the structure used by Lucas (and many others). That page even gives examples from Star Wars - \\Captain Kwenn// &mdash; Ahoy! 21:12, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Huh, I've never heard of that before. Do you suggest I convert both lists to the Hero's Journey? Also, I would like advice as to whether to do similar lists on other major hero's and heroine's pages (ex. Solo family). If so, I'd need help from someone who knows a lot about said characters, that way I wouldn't have to search through a biography for every step. -67.34.186.30 03:27, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
 * The Hero's Journey doesn't quite fit with Anakin's story due to his fall to the dark side, though the framework still loosely works. It's more appropriate for Luke, though - \\Captain Kwenn// &mdash; Ahoy! 22:39, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
 * True. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 22:40, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
 * (NOTE: I am 67.34.186.30, I registered) Whew, that's good, that saves me some work. So, a Hero's Journey for Luke? With a side order of fries? Or no? -Solus 19:01, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Just no mustard. ;) Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 21:02, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Okie-dokey. I'll get to work on it. And don't worry, I try to keep away from Darth Mustard as much as I can. -Solus 23:28, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
 * The Hero's Journey is up, I kept the Hero Cycle there as well and compared the two, since they are both interesting, as well as there is a matching Hero Cycle on Anakin's page and it might look awkward if Anakin had one and not Luke. The link is found here, you can scroll down to get to the Hero's Journey. Will this suffice? -Solus 00:33, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Looks okay to me. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 00:57, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Thank you. -Solus 01:54, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Spoiler warning
I Think a spoiler warning should be added as in this article it does say how jacen solo turns sith and that needs a spoiler warning but i dont no how to put one up 69.26.85.244 02:55, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Done. Glad you mentioned it; it is important, and I'm surprised that no one else noticed it. Good work. .  .  .  .  03:01, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Funny, I thought I remember seeing one there a while ago... Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 14:57, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Temp page for merge
Here it is! Anakin Skywalker/temp. Plot Summary's already merged, it's just the little tidbits at the end. . .  .  .  21:50, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
 * May I do some editing on it to try and better it? I know it's just a temp, but if it's going to be merged, I'd want a good representation of what it's going to look like. -Solus 23:32, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Go ahead! That's what it's there for :) .  .  .  .  23:39, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Thank you -Solus 23:42, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I think I'm done for now... I think I'm going to die... ;) -Solus 01:53, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Quickly, man, take a nap! .  .  .  .  01:55, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Well...there's the article. Do we go for it or not? .  .  .  .  01:56, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
 * There is one problem, however. In the 'Personality' section, there is no description of Anakin in it. I put a note there informing this. At the moment I am too brain-dead (i.e. lazy) to do anything about it right now... brrraaaaiiinnssss... -Solus 02:15, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Eh. Just put "looked like Hayden Christensen". .  .  .  .  02:38, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
 * ??? I don't think I made myself clear. In the navigation bar at the beginning of the article, there is a link near the bottom that says 'Personality.' If you click it and go to that section, it says that there needs to be a paragraph or two describing Anakin's personality. I'm sorry I confused you. -Solus 03:13, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Oh, right. I'm not too good at that - we need our resident Mr "Anakin Skywalker"...who is it? .  .  .  .  03:51, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Erm, you lot do know that no consensus was reached, and if you want to be technical, the againsts votes beat the ,erge votes. So no merge is to take place. Darth Abeonis Sith Council (Sith Campaign) 08:59, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Take a good hard look at the page, bud. Not only to the merges outweigh the againsts, but if no consensus is reached, revert to policy. Here's the link, just in case you can't find it. .  .  .  .  09:27, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
 * For merge: 22. Against merge: 23. Darth Abeonis Sith Council (Sith Campaign) 09:31, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Look closer before I have to make you look like a complete idiot. .  .  .  .  09:32, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
 * OK that's probably a bit rude, but I strongly advise that you look at that page a tad close before you continue. .  .  .  .  10:03, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
 * To put it more politely, if you look at the actual vote, rather than the numbers next to each line, you'll see that 3 votes were crossed out, meaning that the total for "keep separate" was only 20. Regardless, as stated by Sikon, consensus is not just a straight majority vote. We have our policy, let's follow it. QuentinGeorge 10:12, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
 * So, now that we've got a temp page set up, what next? .  .  .  .  10:14, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Ok, moving and merging is done. Now the page needs to be tidied up and made sure to be complete. QuentinGeorge 10:23, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
 * So do we just dump the temp page into the main article? .  .  .  .  10:25, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
 * No need. I moved your temp page here, so Anakin Skywalker now has the merged text you created. QuentinGeorge 10:28, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
 * And so it is. Commons sense prevails! .  .  .  .  10:30, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I knew this was going to happen some day... I just thought I wouldn't be around to see it actually happen. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 12:07, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I didn't know whether the page would be merged or not, but now that it is, I'm just glad I had a part in making it happen. It is a little messy, But it's probably going to be the next IDrive anyhoo. -Solus 14:31, 8 November 2006 (UTC)


 * To clarify, both Anakin Skywalker/temp and Darth Vader/temp now contain the old content, as it was before the merge, complete with revision history. By the way, please don't start changing Darth Vader to Darth Vader . Don't worry about performance, redirects are cheap; it's a waste of time - and it will produce another one to change them back should the articles get separated again. - Sikon 14:56, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Personality pic
In the 'Personality' section, there is no pic. I've looked around and thus far found nothing that would fit. Does anyone know of a pic that would go well in this section? -Solus 20:27, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Maybe a creepy image of a green-eyed, hooded Vader from ROTS? - Sikon 20:29, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Do we even need any more pictures? Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 20:30, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Sikon: Maybe. Jack Nebulax: As for pics, I agree the whole article is extremely image-heavy, and in places we definitely need to trim down. But for continuity's sake, the Personality section looks odd without a pic, as every other section has a pic. -Solus 21:37, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, we should just move an image down or up into that section. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 23:20, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Never thought of that, but it works for me. I'll go image-hunting and see what I find -Solus 01:41, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
 * All right, I've gone through it and here are some images that might do. I don't want to snatch them out without forewarning or a choice between them, so here they are:

Whaddya think? As for my opinion, I like the first one, but which does everyone else think would fit? -Solus 01:49, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Eh...I don't really go for any of them. .  .  .  .  01:53, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I'd go for the first one, just to get it out of the Appearances section. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 12:03, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I know they aren't great, but I had to choose pics out of a densely populated part of the article. That narrowed it down a lot. If there are any pics anyone thinks will work (and if out of the article, then a image-heavy place) then feel free to add them. And if not, are there any objections to using the first image? -Solus 14:51, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Impassioned Jedi found a perfect pic to go in the Personality section, in my opinion, so I think this discussion's closed. -Solus 01:59, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

The Galactic Emperor thing (cont from Talk:Darth Vader)

 * Here's another piece of evidence from SOTE - when Palpatine left Coruscant to inspect the Death Star...or something (I can't remember), Vader became acting Emperor in his stead. Gotta count for something... . .  .  .  00:52, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
 * How is it worded? Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 00:53, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Oh, it's not worded - in the last...I don't know...five chapters of SOTE, Vader is actually in control of the whole Empire. He even kills Xizor against Palpatine's wishes, and without his consent. I think...in a holoconference between the two, Xizor points out that Palpatine didn't want him dead, and Vader states that Palpatine is not here, and that he is in charge of the Empire. Pretty damn significant. .  .  .  .  00:58, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Pestage was basically in charge of the Empire as well during that time. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 00:59, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
 * If so, Pestage would have been acting Head of State. But he wasn't. .  .  .  .  01:03, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
 * But Pestage took command of the Empire after Palpatine's death. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 12:02, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeah, but Vader was dead then too. .  .  .  .  22:28, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Jack? We're up here now because of a messy talk page merge. .  .  .  .  22:15, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
 * But here's the thing: Palpatine didn't have an heir. Sure, he was Palpatine's apprentice, but that didn't make him his automatic heir. Sith heir, yes, but not heir of the Empire. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 00:00, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I know, but Vader's position as acting head of state in SOTE is really saying something. .  .  .  .  00:04, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Timeline
How do we know Anakin went to Nelvaan before he went to Tythe?
 * Because the majority of sources say that he went directly from Tythe to Coruscant. For example, in Star Wars: Complete Locations, on the Second Battle of Coruscant page, it says "Recently returned from action on Tythe..." or something like that. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 20:35, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Thank you, but can you give me another one because recently is an opinion.--Herbsewell 21:14, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
 * The New Essential Chronology has "Both Anakin and Obi-Wan had been occupied elsewhere per Sidious's design, pursuing Count Dooku on the ruined world of Tythe. They leapt to Coruscant's defense in their Jedi starfighters."  This comes in the section following the one which includes the events on Nelvaan. jSarek 22:46, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Uh, Herbsewell, "recently" was used in Comple Locations and therefore not an opinion. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 00:53, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
 * "Recently" is always an opinion unless specifically defined. jSarek 10:54, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Not true. In that sentence, it is a fact. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 14:03, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Recently is subjective Jack, no matter how much you want to see it differently, such as "recently Anakin became a Jedi knight". Thank you JSarek for giving me a time line instead of an arbitrary statement--Herbsewell 16:03, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Exactly. "Recently" *cannot* be a fact, no matter who or what uses the term, unless the term is specifically defined in relation to testable things.  It's wholly dependent on point of view otherwise.  Oh, and you're welcome, Herbsewell. ;-) jSarek 22:16, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
 * For God's sake, I took it from a canon source. Blame the book, not me. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 23:34, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

what the?
why did the Darth vader article merge with the Anakin Skywalker article? and why?

Master Nikolce 06:33, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
 * See here. -- Ozzel 06:37, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Because they're the same person. .  .  .  .  06:37, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Fatal Flaw

 * Are we sure that we can say Anakin's fatal flaw was his rage? I think a fatal flaw refers to to flaw the hero has in a drama that causes him to symbolically fall from grace.  In this case rage would be one of his flaws but I think his fatal flaw is fear when you narrow it down.  It's what made him ultimately choose to be Darth Vader and it's the one most commented on in the films.  It's at least the most pivotal.  He also had hatred, hunger for power, impatience and distrust.  Good arguments can be made for all these traits.  Maybe it should say that fear was the fatal one but the other ones helped solidify his fall to the dark side.  Just my two cents.  --Jedimasterbob 21:48, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree with you. Fear of his wife's death was the main reason, but the rest were key parts in his fall. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 01:02, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
 * You misunderstand: the "fatal flaw = rage" part was talking about combat situation only, not talking about the whole person. Darth Kevinmhk 04:45, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Wait, are you talking to Jedimasterbob or me? Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 13:17, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
 * To Jedimasterbob. Darth Kevinmhk 13:18, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Just double checked, the fatal flaw part was indeed under the Lightsaber Training section which refers to combat situation. Darth Kevinmhk 13:19, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Okay, got it. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 13:23, 4 June 2006 (UTC)


 * The fatal flaw in both Anakin and Vader is not fear, it's pity. Anakin feels pity which is what helps destroy Darth Vader and redeem himself but it is also part of his downfall. When Anakin disarms Dooku he hesitates about killing him. When Anakin sees Palpatine "begging" for his life to Windu, Anakin saves Palpatine from death. When Vader cuts off Luke's hand, he says "don't make me destroy you", partly out of his desire to capture Luke and out of pity of Luke's pathetic situation. He probably doesn't kill Piett because he knows that Piett has been scared and anticipating his own death by Vader ever since he was promoted to Admiral. When Vader sees Luke begging for his life, the pity of Anakin's persona erupts and he saves Luke from being killed. Pity is his fatal flaw, it is the key part of Vader's internal conflict which ends up destroying the dark side within him.
 * Wow, that's an excellent analysis on it. I agree with you. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 12:55, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
 * In episode one Yoda said he sensed much fear in Anakin about his mother. His first true path to the dark side was when he murdered the entire Sandpeople camp after his mother's death. The whole situation with him turning to the dark side to save Padme is ironic in that he was the reason she died. Its just like this Greek play where the son of a king and queen is banished because the mother has visions of her giving birth to snakes which was marked as a bad omen. The boy grew up and became leader of some other Greek city. Uknowingly he killed his own father and married his mother. --Dumac 22:40, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Fear in general is not the problem of Vader completely, fear of loss as Yoda said, is the specific weakness is probably his fatal flaw now that I think of it, but why did Anakin hesitate in killing Dooku, he still has mercy and pity as Vader, which Sidious warns him to devoid himself of by the time he gets to the Jedi Temple. His fear of loss, mercy/pity prevents him from killing Luke as well as Piett. I still think that Vader is a sucker for pity, e.g. he tends to act on someone's pleading. Plus, Vader leaves the torture chamber in Cloud City, when Han Solo's screaming begins to become loud. Vader seems to take a keen interest in the torture device at first but then suddenly walks out. Originally it probably was an indication that Vader was too busy planning the capture of Luke to waste time, but with the present information on Vader maybe the electric-shock torture of Han was starting to remind him of Mace Windu, hmmm?, anyone else think the same.
 * Oh, yes! I agree one hundred percent! Although Vader was one of the most powerful Sith ever, he still had weaknesses, just like Palpatine with over-confidence, Dooku with trust for his master, etc. -Lord vader1414 02:53, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
 * No matter how powerful someone is, there is always a fatal flaw. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 14:22, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
 * So, the fatal flaw thing is referring to lightsaber dueling? We should probably use the term "tragic flaw" for his overall character and just mention that rage is what hurts his combat prowess.   I mistakenly thought the term "tragic flaw" was called a fatal flaw.  Sorry, everyone.  Pity is a good argument for the tragic flaw, though I can't decide between it and fear of loss.  Anakin wanted to kill Palpatine and only let him live because he wanted to save Padmé.  True, the "emperor is not as forgiving" as he is, but we know that's a pretty relative statement:).  Well, he does tell Admiral Jerjerrod that he hopes he doubles his efforts for his sake.  He and Admiral Piett were probably spared because Vader's meeting with his son stirred the good side of Anakin in him.  I'm going to just mention in the article that the rage thing is in combat and leave the tragic flaw in his character alone for now.  --Jedimasterbob 21:49, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Actually, Vader was just obsessed with finding his son and turning him to the dark side. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 23:27, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Sith'ari

 * Should there be some mention of Vader being both the Chosen One and possibly the Sith'ari? Speculative, yes, but there's a lot of speculation in the Chosen One section already. Cutch 02:07, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, there should be something. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 02:09, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
 * So, do you think adding a "Possible interpretation of Sith Prophesy" after the Chosen one section would be appropriate? And, by the way, does one think that "Destroying the Sith and making them more powerful" refers to Anakin's destruction of the old "Rule of Two order" of Sith? By destroying Palpatine, he severs the Rule of Two restriction and paves the way for the Legacy Era Sith, who rule the entire Galaxy in greater numbers than ever before (thus destroy=more powerful)? By destroying the old Sith, Anakin allows the New Sith of the Legacy Era to be rebuilt stronger than ever. Cutch 18:49, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
 * So... anyone else agree. Cutch 03:31, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 11:35, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I too agree user:Darth Vatrir
 * Uh, this discussion hasn't been active for over a month. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 22:05, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Anakin Skywalker was indeed genetically "perfect", having been concieved by the very midi-chlorians themselves Shouldn't there be an 'if'?
 * No. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 13:53, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Why? :P
 * Because he was basically genetically perfect. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 20:03, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Where does it say that?
 * Hello, conceived through the Force. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 00:44, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
 * It's still not 100% proven though. From the other pages I've seen it's acknowledged as/or left ambiguous.
 * The way I see it, if you're conceived by the Force, you're genetically perfect. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 00:53, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Doesn't make it 'fact' though, does it?
 * Then what would make someone genetically perfect? Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 00:58, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Just because you think he's conceived by the Force doesn't make it proven 'in-universe'. Other pages I've seen are 'if's and 'but's or 'maybe's. ;)
 * I don't know about you, but I'm Roman Catholic, meaning I believe that Jesus was the Son of God. Normally I don't involve religion in Star Wars, but if Jesus is truly the Son of God, he would be genetically perfect. Anakin was in a similar situation&mdash;conceived through the Force. If Jesus was genetically perfect, Anakin is genetically perfect. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 01:07, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
 * But you don't know if he was truly conceived through the Force. It's an opinion. (And it's possible that any deity making their child human would make them just as flawed and susceptible as any other person but you don't know.)
 * We know that Anakin was conceived through the Force, though, because Shmi herself said that there was no father. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 13:23, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Assuming Shmi didnt lie (and I see no reason to retcon that), Anakin was conceived through the Force. Whether he was conceived by the Force or by other mastermind remains to be seen. Darth Kevinmhk 13:28, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Either way, conceived through the Force should make one genetically perfect, even if Plagueis or someone else manipulated the midi-chlorians. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 13:30, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
 * You don't know if Shmi was making a literal statement.
 * Now you're just speculating. Why would Shmi lie to a Jedi? Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 13:48, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm speculating? :P I didn't say she was lying I said she possibly wasn't being literal. If you say it's raining cats and dogs, felines and canines aren't actually plummeting from the sky. All I'm saying that Anakin being concieved through the Force isn't 100% true and shouldn't be presented as such on the page - where other pages acknowledge it as speculation - as a fact unless Lucas said he was, of course, by means of stating it and not from a script.
 * Anakin Skywalker was conceived through the Force. That is a fact. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 17:01, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Source please. (Qui-Gon Jinn suggesting it doesn't count)
 * Uh, Anakin didn't have a father. This discussion is completely pointless. Anakin was conceived through the Force. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 18:35, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
 * So then why are other pages like Anakin's/Shmi's/Qui-Gon's not as final about it as you are?
 * Anakin was conceived by the midichlorians, whether it was the will of the force or of Plagueis remains unknown, but whatever happened happened through the Midis. That is the only fact we know (for now) --Sauron18 20:10, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
 * (Restarting, for the sake of readability) I think it should be considered a fact that Anakin was, in some way, conceived through the Force. But why should that make him "genetically perfect"? And what does that mean? Isn't that very subjective? And what does that have to do with the profecy of Sith'ari? Charlii 20:22, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
 * A child born of prophecy, possibly conceived by the will of the Force itself - Databank. Some have speculated that it was the will of the Force that created Anakin in Shmi's womb - Databank. The wise Jedi Knight suggested that Anakin may have been conceived by the midi-chlorians, especially since Anakin had a midi-chlorian count of over 20,000; even greater than that of Grand Master Yoda. Anakin's page. Anakin Skywalker, who was believed to have been conceived by the Force itself Force page. (When Supreme Chancellor Palpatine told Anakin Skywalker of the so-called "Tragedy of Darth Plagueis the Wise", he spoke of the legendary Sith Lord acquiring the power to "influence the midi-chlorians to create life". It is not clear whether or not Palpatine was lying on this occasion. Midi-chlorians .) It's ambiguous everywhere else so why this one page so definite? :'(
 * For the sake of ending this whole thing, make it "Conceived by the midi-chlorians themselves, Anakin could have possibly been genetically perfect". Happy? Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 22:47, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I'd leave that whole "genetically perfect" part out. It's just fan speculation, nothing in canon even hints at it. And Anakin's still human so I don't see how he could be genetically perfect (no human can be 100% perfect, and even if conceived by the force itself, he still interited some imperfect genetic constitution of Shmi) --Craven 20:21, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Still, it is possible. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 22:36, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
 * It could be true, of course (nothing's impossible in SW) . But as long as there are no canon sources telling anything about his genes, i'd rather not put it into the article. IMHO wookieepedia should only document information from canon sources, not include personal views/ideas. --Craven 22:17, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Still, if anyone was genetically perfect, it would be one conceived by the Force. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 00:00, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Article main picture
Which one?

Scores: Image 1:3 Image 2:0 Image 3:1 Image 4:1 Image 5:0 Jasca Ducato 17:36, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
 * 3rd. --Master Starkeiller 17:41, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Well i think fourth. Jasca Ducato 17:47, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
 * First. Gives the best view of him, and it's still a great action pose - Kwenn 18:59, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Definitely first, for the reasons Kwenn said. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 19:12, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
 * First. Darth Kevinmhk 03:33, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Whoo-hoo!! ;) Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 12:25, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Why can't anons vote? Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 14:58, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Its wikipedia policy (i think :-s) depends if there just a one-time passerby or if they contribute a lot to wookieepedia. Jasca Ducato 18:11, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
 * True... Then again, all anons who contribute a lot should register... Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 22:56, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
 * If they register then they can vote&hellip;Jasca Ducato 08:18, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeah, but they should register from the start... Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 12:38, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, I like no. 5, but one is probably the best. any other opinions? -Lord vader1414 21:33, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I say no. 5 to. user:Darth Vatrir
 * Uh, in case you haven't noticed, this has been over for a month. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 22:05, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Darth Vader's appearance
This says Vader first appears in A New Hope. Shouldn't it be Revenge of the Sith since that's his actual first appearance?
 * First appearance refers to the first production in which he is revealed, not to his earliest chronological appearance. A New Hope is the first Star Wars product to come out that mentions Vader. -BaronGrackle 16:12, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
 * The thing with appearances is that they are listed chronologically, but the first appearances and first mentions go by when the appearance or source was released in real-life. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 17:19, 16 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Thank you.
 * Don't remove what other people say. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 12:56, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry.
 * But I didn't. Did I? I didn't mean to. I'm not a vandal or anything. I didn't see you on it before and must of accidentally deleted what you said.
 * You did. But don't worry about it. I just wanted to make sure it just wasn't because someone else hated me. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 13:10, 17 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I saw what I did. Yeah I won't worry. I would never delete anything someone had to say. Accidents happen. Won't happen again. I'll be more careful.
 * Thanks for letting me know it was an accident. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 13:14, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Vader's Force Lightning
Okay, I want to make sure i'm not freaking out. In the Ep. III video game, Anakin (at the time he was Vader of course)can use force lightning. I dont think this is canon, is it? -Lord vader1414 21:37, 23 June 2006 (UTC) Umm... Vader used Force Lightning in Splinter of the mind's eye, in case you forgot. 03:45, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Nope. Anakin/Vader could never use Force lightning. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 21:49, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Okay then, thank you. That really helps. Oh, and Admiral, what would you say the best way to tell someone to stop talking about how smart computors are compared to humans is without losing your temper? (See clone wars talk section: Number of clones) -Lord vader1414 22:06, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
 * That's really point of view. There's no right or wrong answer for it. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 22:55, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Ok, well, thanks anyhow. -Lord vader1414 22:57, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I see it's over now anyway. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 22:59, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
 * What about that variation of Force lightning that's called Vader's Wrath? Darth Xarcon 12:20, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
 * That's not really a variation. It's more of a charge from a lightsaber. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 14:31, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Then it's not relly a Force power. Darth Xarcon 10:23, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
 * It technically is, because it would just normally create a hole in the ground, not a big thing like that. The person doing it probably adds some Force power into it, causing the whole thing. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 19:06, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Good point. Darth Xarcon 10:20, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Where does it state he cannot cast Force Lightning? Firstly, purely logical, if he hurts his mechanical parts, other people would hurt their hands casting it, and nobody would have used it. Secondly, Palpatine's Force Storm clearly proves that Lightning doesn't need to come from the hand. If it did, then what about species without hands? Its completely illogical that the Force would work in such a way, and even if it did, that Lighning would be the only power to be limited in this fashion. Sure we have to go after whats canonical rather than logical, but assuming he can't use it just because he never did is laughable, SW canon being what it is. And I disagree that the Ep. 3 video game is not canonical in this matter. Wookieepedia is full of contradictory, flawed and uninformed content made by Video Game devs that is treated like cononcial proof. Anakin cast Lightning in the Ep. 3 era in an offcial Lucas licenced product (that GL earned cash from), so its C-canon. End of story.
 * right, anon he cannot use lightning, it has been stated several times i think? And we see in all these comics featuring him, all these books etc he never uses it. When Palps uses it on him we see the catroscopic effects and its preety obvious this is due to his mechanical features.
 * Anon, he had no organic limbs. He could not use Force lightning. And games go against canon. Just because Lucas receives money from it doesn't mean it's completely canon. Anakin/Vader never learned how to create or use Force lightning. Vader also never used Force lightning because he got mechanical limbs. End of story. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 16:40, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Just wondering. But who says he couldn't have used Force Lightning. Granted we never see him use it in Ep.III but who says he couldn't use it after he fell, but before he came into the suit. Jasca Ducato 17:29, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
 * You can't just turn to the dark side and then automaticly know Force Lightning. You need to learn it first in order to succseed in using this ability. Darth Xarcon 1:27, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
 * what Xarcon says. ^. yer exactly, palps didn't have any time to teach Vader this skill, just face the fact. Vader did not use lightning. end of. Jedi Dude 18:30, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Erm, actually Jedi Dude, its not "end of." Consider it, Plo Koon knew how to use Force Lightning (or a LS varaint), who says Anakin, or even Mace, or Obi-Wan couldn't do the same. We just don't see them use it. Jasca Ducato 18:31, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
 * electric judgement, your light side version of lightning is very different, its not a good version of lightning its a whole different power. and so far only two users have used it Plo Koon and Luke, and yes becasue we havn't seen it means there is no canon fact that theyv'e done it meaning we assume they havn't. what your sayign is like saying "Grevious had repulsers in his legs, he must of been able to use six sabers" just becasue vader was a sith does NOT mean he can use lightning. Jedi Dude 18:37, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Exactly. Anakin couldn't just assume the "lightning position" and then shoot Force lightning without learning it first. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 19:07, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I agree, If Wookieepedia didn't accept so much illogical or canon-contradictory stuff as canon, I would have said that he never learned to use Lightning, preferring his famous grip, since he likely wasn't going to be doing too much serious field work, rather just intimidating his subordinates. I see that as perfectly plausible. I am still waiting to hear a spesific canon source that states he couldn't cast Ligtning, or at the very least that Lightning specifically requires an organic arm to cast from, as opposed to a leg or say, lekku.
 * Vader's legs and arms were artificial, and he would never be able to summon lightning. From Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader. Darth Kevinmhk 15:59, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
 * The only problem with that quote Kevinmhk is that it only accounts for after the Mustafar incident. As for canon; i'm not disputing that canonically, he can't use Force lightning, but we cannot rule it out entirely. For all we know, Legacy 2 will show a flash back of Vader (pre-armour) using Force Lightning, unlikely, but it's a possibility. Jasca Ducato 18:57, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
 * The point is, in order to use a Force power, one has to learn how to first. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 19:52, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Actually, thats not the point, and if it is its a bad one. As i've already said, this "Eletric judgement" Plo Koon uses is canon. But we don't know how he learnt it do we? So we cant say that Skywalker didn't know how to use it either. Jasca Ducato 20:43, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
 * But we're not talking about electric judgement, are we? They appear to be two separate powers. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 20:44, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Erm, yes we are. It has been said many times that Electric Judgment is the "ligthside version" of Sith lightning. So its entirely plausible, and even likely that anyone who could use EJ as a Jedi, and then turned to the darkside could use Sith lightning. You don't just forget things when you turn. Jasca Ducato 20:51, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
 * But how do we know that electric judgement was exactly equal to Force lightning? And how do we even know Anakin learned how to use electric judgement? All we're doing is speculating. We're not going to get a canonical answer by speculating. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 20:52, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
 * "Speculation leads to identification." Like i've said before, i'm not doubting that, at the moment, canonically Anakin cannot use Force lightning, but we cannot dismiss the possibility that he could use it. As for the Ej par, just look at its article and you'll see your answer. It's the same, just "tuned-down". Jasca Ducato 20:57, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
 * but we can't just speculate and think oh yes he could use it so he must be able to. It doen't work like that, maybe vader pre suit could of used it but as we didn't see it we must assume that he couldn't. EJ really is nothing to do with it since it is a different power entirely, its not just a tuned down that once again is just speculation because it simply looks like a light side version of lightning. it was never stated in Jedi Power Battles that it was a light side lightning, i would know i have the old game sumwhere. Jedi Dude 21:15, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Speculation does not always lead to identification. Did speculating Darth Krayt's real identity lead anywhere? No. We don't have enough facts here. There's no point in speculating here. Canonically, Vader has never used Force lightning. That's all that should matter for now until a canon source says he did. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 01:08, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
 * At least my quote proves that organic limb is required. When Quinlan Vos and Jaina Solo turned to the dark side, they dont need much learning to cast Force lightning. At any rate, I agree with Jack, canonically there is no proof to suggest that Vader ever know / learn / cast Force lightning, and that's just enough unless a new source surface. Darth Kevinmhk 03:02, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I think that starwars.com itself states that Vader never could use Force lightining (except for his variation). Now, let's leave it alone. We are done here, it's OVER! -Lord vader1414 03:06, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Oh yes, I almost forgot. Powers like Force lightning, however, actually do use the limb as a conduit for a physical manifestation of energy. OS Q&A. Darth Kevinmhk 03:35, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
 * thanks for that. It helped. But, anyhow, this is over now. -Lord vader1414 04:30, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Vader did not use Force lightning in Splinter. From OS Q&A: Though the comics adaptation of Splinter, published in the mid-1990s, depicts this action with something that looks an awful lot like Force lightning, the energy that Vader hurls isn't exactly that. It is pure kinetic energy -- the ball that strikes Luke is called a kinetite, or "restrained energy globe." It's possible it's not even a result of a Force power at all, but rather a device that Vader built into his suit. Darth Kevinmhk 04:24, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Therefore, once again, Vader can't use Force lightning. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 13:36, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
 * this discussion again? lets leave it now, its final Vader cannot and did not ever as far as we have been shown use force lightning Jedi Dude 13:38, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeah, it's over now. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 13:39, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Is there some Image showing Vader using this so called kinetic energy?
 * Anon it is not so called, if OS says that is what it is then it is. Read the grpahic novel if you want to see the image, this discussion is over now, its already gone on far to much. Jedi Dude 17:27, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Calm down, Jedi Dude. Don't be mean to other users like that. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 19:38, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
 * sorry, but these types of articles are coming up more and more and people don't seem to read whats been said already, i apoligise. Jedi Dude 19:46, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
 * That's the problem with archiving. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 19:47, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Could some one please just show me the Image! I would relly be thankful for it.
 * I don't think anyone has uploaded it. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 00:30, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks anyway.
 * Then again, an image doesn't have to be uploaded to be placed somewhere... Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 16:55, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
 * How many times do we have to go over this? THE CONVERSATION IS AT AN END!!! Vader never used lightning once in his whole life canonly. It's over. we're done. -His Lordship - Darth Vader 18:51, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
 * You're the one that restarted it now, though. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 18:53, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
 * What? oh, sorry. Well, that was just for future reference to the people who want to keep it going. -His Lordship - Darth Vader 18:56, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Hopefully no one will want to. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 18:58, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
 * No kidding. -His Lordship - Darth Vader 16:54, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I removed the reference to Vader's inability to conjure Force Lightning being a reason why Palpatine went looking for a new apprentice. Unless there's some reference stating so, I see no reason to believe that's the case. Palpatine's thoughts on Vader on pages 134-135 demonstrate that while Vader hadn't been what Palpatine initially wanted (obviously) he definitely had not given up on him and had every intent on awakening his latent power. This is because Vader's weakness stemmed from his state of mind, not any physical flaw. Palpatine only wanted  a new apprentice when he found someone younger and more powerful- Luke.Vymer 13:20, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Why did you remove a bunch of other stuff as well? Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 13:23, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Because I don't think its true- the thing about using the Force to move- there's an offhand comment about that in Dark Lord, but it's more Vader complaining and being frustrated at how different the suit was to as he moved when he was Anakin, not a flat statement that Vader can't move without the force, Dark Lord simply doesn't go that far. Of course, if there's a source that says otherwise and I don't know about it then sure.Vymer 09:31, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Damn, forgot to log in. Anyway, the reasons I changed some other stuff. Firstly, the thing about Palpatine being not happy with Vader and wanting a new apprentice. That only happened when he found Luke, younger and more powerful. Dark Lord makes it clear that Palpatine found Vader more than adequate and he still had the potential to be incredibly powerful. He was *not* immediately looking for someone else. It's also important to note that Vader's discomfort in the suit was transitory, not permanent. He got used to it. And like I said above, if we're going to have Vader suspecting the suit was an intentional limitiation in the article, in the interests of accuracy it should say that this wasn't true- Palpatine had no such intent, that's from both the RotS novel and Dark Lord. I've altered my changes to clarify the position of the canon.Vymer 06:42, 24 August 2006 (UTC) Sorry mate, not sure what you mean- could you give me a suggestion on how to change it?Vymer 10:27, 24 August 2006 (UTC) No, Dark Lord doesn't say that. That's just Vader complaining to himself in a fit of frustration with the impediments of his suit. The quote:
 * Hia suit did that because he wasn't used to it, thats made preety clear to. I don't know i think the way you've said what you wanted within the article isn't exactly right, it needs re-wording Jedi Dude 09:58, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader makes it pretty clear that Vader needed help from the Force to move. Just because you don't think something is true doesn't mean you can just remove it. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 13:21, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

"The tall boots were a poor fit for his artificial feet, whose claw-like toes lacked the electrostatic sensitivity of his equally false fingertips. Raised in the heel, the cumbersome footgear canted him slightly forward, forcing him to move with exaggerated caution lest he stumble or topple over. Worse, the were so heavy he felt rooted to the ground, or as if he were moving in high gravity.

What good was motion of this sort, if he was going to have to call on the Force even to walk from place to place! He may as well have resigned himself to using a repulsor chair and abandoned [i]any[/i] hope of movement."

Using that as airtight evidence that he can't walk without the force is unjustified. The context is clear- he wasn't used to his new prostheses and so was using the Force as a crutch- much as he awkwardly stumled around when he first came off the table. It doesn't mean he can't move without the Force. That doesn't even make any sense- he has artificial legs that work the same as his arms, what, are we to believe he can't move his arms without the force either?Vymer 16:03, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Anyway, I'm going to move this down to a new topic in discussion. See bottom.Vymer 16:06, 24 August 2006 (UTC) I agree with that, but then the article should be amended to note this was a temporary measure. Vader's confidence in the suit increased as Dark Lord went on- his "baby steps" and frustrations in the first weeks of his new situation shouldn't be assumed to extend over his whole life.Vymer 16:20, 24 August 2006 (UTC) Looks good to me. Thanks for that. I was just flipping through Dark Lord and read the passage where he's chasing Shryne in Alderaan- in that, his "powerful prosthetic legs" are described as allowng him to jump considerable distances. That might be covered already in the talents section though. Vymer 16:36, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
 * That quote does seem to imply that he had to use the Force to help him move originally. He could probably have moved without the Force, but it might have been hard for him, so he needed some help from the Force. You said it yourself: "...and so was using the Force as a crutch". Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 16:17, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
 * True. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 16:21, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
 * How does it look now? Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 16:24, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm sure the Force was involved in the jump, though. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 16:37, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Obvious Comparison
Since Vice President Dick Cheney is now regarded as the "Darth Vader" of the Bush administration, would it be NPOV to place this footnote in the "Behind the scenes#Darth Vader as a cultural figure" section, or are we pushing it? -- Riffsyphon1024 05:44, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I think it's fine to put in. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 13:29, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeah, Cheney needs to reorginize his life. I like the idea. -Lord vader1414 14:44, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Please, no political debate... Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 17:48, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Sorry, just wanted to give my support. -Lord vader1414 00:32, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
 * There are other ways to give your support, young Padawan. I'm kidding about the "young Padawan" part, of course. I didn't want it to sound like I was yelling at you. ;) Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 02:27, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
 * That's ok. thank you for the reminder master. -Lord vader1414 06:35, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
 * You're welcome. ;) Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 13:49, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Dick Cheney is no war hero unlike Vader was, Cheney has never duked it out with his enemies. Vader follows his troops into battle like Napoleon. If Vader is related to any modern political figure, its Colin Powell. I'm not saying Powell is a villain, but both he and Vader had high positions but where not trusted by the head of state. Both served in wars, both had to do the dirty work of their government, and both were sacrificial in the view of the head of state.

Appearances
Would it be better to create a 'List of Vader appearances' page rather than the long list we have here. I'm thinking along the lines of List of Luke Skywalker appearances, but it depends on whether people think there are enough appearances to warrant it (hes bound to appear fairly often in coming material. Durnar 15:34, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
 * That would work. We could have it like it is on Palpatine. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 19:06, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
 * The same probably needs to be done for Anakin Skywalker as well. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 13:05, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Darth Vadar's pressurized chamber
In a few episodes Darth Vadar can be seen medatating in a pressurized chamber. In episode 4 he even has his helmet off and it startles an imperial officer. I was wondering if he could take off all his armor?--Dumac 22:42, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, he could, as shown in Shadows of the Empire. And the movie is Episode V. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 01:40, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Vader's Son
"Vader believed that his unborn child had perished with his wife, Padmé Amidala but Vader eventually deduced that Luke was in fact this child. The Sith Lord became obsessed with hunting down Luke, an objective which neatly coincided with his task of destroying the Rebellion".
 * The article features the old ep. 5 version of Vader learning of Luke's existence. Since the DVD version has Palpatine reveal the secret to Vader, the article must be altered to reflect this. Somebody with some editing skills, please go ahead.
 * If you tell me what you want done, I'll do it. Just right it up. -Lord vader1414 04:35, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Okay....I propose the following:

be extended/atered to:

"Vader believed that his unborn child had perished with his wife, Padmé Amidala but during his mission to capture the Millenium Falcon following the Battle of Hoth, Vader was contacted by the Emperor, who had somehow deduced that Luke was in fact Vaders child. Palpatine informed his apprentice of this, and despite Vader's intial reluctance to believe his master's words, he soon came to realize it had to be true. Upon his own request, the Sith Lord was charged with hunting down Luke for the purpose of turning him to the Dark Side of the Force, an objective which neatly coincided with his task of destroying the Rebellion".

Okay?
 * Not quite. Vader already knew the identity of the "young Rebel who destroyed the Death Star", and was merely keeping quiet in front of Palpatine so as not to ruin his own chances of turning Luke to his side. He discovers Luke's identity in Vader's Quest - Kwenn 09:18, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
 * That fits perfectly with the fact that Vader wanted to find a strong apprentice to help him overthrow Palpatine from Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 11:49, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Really? But then you should edit the article to explain how he found out in Vader's Quest. The current "Vader deduced" isn't very informative.
 * Actually, that sums it up rather well. If your name was once Anakin Skywalker and you heard of someone named Luke Skywalker, wouldn't you deduce that that person was a relative? And since Vader could sense things in the Force, the Force could have told him that Luke was his son. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 16:54, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Is this the extent of his knowledge before ESB?! That certainly calls for an addendum. Something like "Vader had his suspicions before, having heard the name of Skywalker, but this wasn't confiremd until he was contacted by the Emperor blah blah blah", No?
 * I don't think Palpatine even needed to confirm it. I think Vader already knew. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 17:08, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
 * He did. He actually meets Luke in Vader's Quest - Kwenn 17:09, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Excellent. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 17:09, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Sidious = Insidious, Vader = Invader?
Vader could be based of of invader, as he led the attack on the Jedi Temple and Mustafaar and destroyed all opponents, for which Sidious intended for him to do. The simplified name is just as Sidious is insidious. Darth Sidious=Dark and insidious, Darth Maul=Dark maul, Darth Tyranus=Dark tyrant, Darth Vader=Dark father. user:Darth Vatrir (If this is an inactive discussion, I enjoy putting fuel on fires about to die...)
 * Old hat that would have had some merit if not for Maul, Tyranus and just about every Darth in the EU.
 * Well, Tyranus could be used as tyranny and Maul as maulacious. It dosent exactly fit, but it comes close enough. -Lord vader1414 22:24, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
 * GL probably just searched through the dictionary and dropped parts of words to make these Sith names. No offense to GL, though. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 01:06, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Too true. -Lord vader1414 01:37, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Vader means "Father" in Dutch, although it is pronounced more like Vadeer. The "Darth" title means dark so:
 * Not that inactive, but still, the last post before yours was made on July 8. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 21:17, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
 * But still, how is this theory? user:Darth Vatrir
 * It's good. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 21:35, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Thank you. I creat most of my theories the way that guy in the movie 'Conspiracy Theory' does. user:Darth Vatrir
 * Never seen it. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 21:16, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Oh, you should, its a good movie. user:Darth Vatrir
 * Well, we're starting to go into personal opinions now, so we better end it. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 13:48, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

The dark side...
Darth Vader IS the dark side! Out of all the Darths or what ever you call em', Vader lived the longest! He also had the only normal lightsaber! That's honorable. Not nice though. Jedis, well, they are... how do I put this... dumb. Vader is straight and to the point. Jedis overlook the obvious. "Well, there's a big laser in the sky. I'll go in there and destroy it instead of using our big friggin' laser on hoth!" Man they're dumb! Darth Shady 15:32, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
 * IS there a point to this? And, FYI, Sidious was DLOS much longer than Vader. Jasca Ducato 17:06, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
 * For God's sake, Pimpinsithlord, do some research first. Palpatine/Sidious lived longer, having a "normal lightsaber" means nothing, saying that Jedi are dumb is point of view, and the Rebels didn't have a base on Hoth when the first Death Star was around. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 19:19, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Umm, anon, no personal opinions please. If you have an actual question, feel free to ask, but we kind of want to keep this site free of things like this. I agree that Vader is an amazing Sith, and was an amazing Jedi, but this isn't the place for this. Try a forum. -Lord vader1414 19:34, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
 * He's not an anon, just to let you know. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 19:39, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Seriously? Okay then. Hey, umm whatever your name is, please sign your comments. -Lord vader1414 19:13, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
 * His name is Pimpinsithlord, which is why I addressed him as such. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 19:14, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Ah. So I see. My appologies. -Lord vader1414 19:19, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Still, what you said to him is right. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 19:21, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the support. :) -Lord vader1414 19:25, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
 * No problem. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 19:30, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Is 80% of the strength that Darth Sidious has considerd to be powerful or weak?
 * Quite powerful, although Vader could have had 200% of Sidious' power. I think this was already covered though... -Lord vader1414 16:55, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Ok. I'll keep all this in mind. Anyway, this was my very first post, and I think ik was Ok. Vader still rox though. You can't say anything to change that fact. Darth Shady 15:32, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep opinions off of the talk pages. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 19:38, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Jedi killed
Does any body no how much Jedi Vader killed through out his life?
 * No, but it has to be a lot. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 20:22, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
 * He killed off what could be considered most of the Jedi, but I don't think an acctual number was ever counted. BTW: It's "how many", not "how much". Let's use proper grammer, shall we?-Lord vader1414 16:43, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
 * well to be honest its only a informal convo so it isn't nesscercery, in anycase i think Vader must of killed a fairly large amount, more than a hundred i'd say for sure. Jedi Dude 16:53, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
 * At least. He slaughtered almost every Jedi and Padawan in the temple, then he went on a killing spree after his "operation". -Lord vader1414 16:56, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
 * what makes you think he killed amosty every one, from what wev'e seen and read, a large amount were killed by clones...maybe more than a hundred then? Im really not sure, and whatever we do it will be speculation. Jedi Dude 17:13, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, I guess what I said was over doing it a little... Your right, I guess the clones helped alot, but I said almost every one, not every one. Still, I'm sure he killed a very large number.
 * You would think that, but judging by Yoda's line ("Killed by a lightsaber, this Padawan was" or however it went), it appears that the clones got the most kills. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 19:18, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Good point. I guess I was generalizing... Sorry. -Lord vader1414 19:34, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
 * You don't need to apologize. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 19:36, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
 * You also have to remember that Darth Vader is just one person, while the clones had a vast army of thousands. Darth Xarcon 3:35, 12 July 2006
 * The actual line is, "Killed not by clones, this Padawan. By a lightsaber, he was", which definately implies all other corpses Yoda and Obi-Wan happened upon had been clone kills. The only definate ones in the Temple were that Padawan (and possibly the others also lying there with him?) Jurokk, Whie, Bene, Cin Drallig, Serra Keto, Jocasta Nu and the Younglings in the Council chamber. Possibly also the end-of-level Jedi in Knightfall (Battlefront II; 5 (IIRC) Jedi who Anakin is required to kill) and maybe various Jedi Brutes and Snipers as seen in the RotS game - Kwenn 20:44, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
 * well this is quickly becoming a discussion, which is not what these talk baords are here for. so im gonna ask if anything further needs to be said were move itto the forums. We can only speculate how mnay jedi died by vader's hand, so really theres no point arguering about it. Jedi Dude 20:53, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Your completely right. Darth Xarcon 4:41, 12 July 2006
 * Jedi Dude, discussions are supposed to be on talk pages like this. Personal opinions are not to be on talk pages. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 23:51, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, what I think is that Vader (although he probably didn't get most, or even a large number of kills in the Temple) probably killed a good number. Although there is obviously no way to verify the exact number, we may be able to come close if we put all the info together that we have. Now, let's think. How many Padawans were killed by him, how many Jedi in the BF2 level did he have to kill, and how many do we know of were killed by him in the over all purge? Oh, and Kwen, Barriss Offee and Luminara were also killed by Vader as we see in Insider magazine (the one about the purge). -Lord vader1414 16:15, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
 * no, Barriss was killed at felucia, and Luminara on Kashuuk by clones, its in the Episode III comic. Sorry Jack but i just don't think this is a discussion, its just speculation, we do not know how many died by vaders hand and theres no way we can figur it out, the only way were know is if a source confirms it.
 * Oh, right. My bad. Well, then who was I thinking of? Anyhow, let's just try to come close. Put all our info together, you know? It will get us close, and even though it's speculation, we could put a place in the article that says: "Estimated Jedi Executions" or something of the sort. We could classify it as non-canon. No big deal. -Lord vader1414 16:35, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
 * i don't kno who your thinking about, and even if we tally all the deaths it won't be close to a real amount simply becasue theres such a large gap in the dark times that hasn't been explored...yet. the new comic series will help us with this discussion, but for now there is nothing we can do. Jedi Dude 17:13, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Okay, then. Well, shall we just tally what we can find at the moment? -Lord vader1414 18:06, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
 * No. It'd be pointless. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 19:57, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
 * As jack said there is no point, there is no way unless its ever stated in a canon source that were gonna know. end of a already to long discussion. Jedi Dude 20:03, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Saying "Vader killed X Jedi" is like saying "There are X stars in the Milky Way". It's impossible to tell unless a canon sourc says so. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 20:09, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
 * which ive said several times, so is this discussion over now? Jedi Dude 20:26, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I'd say yes. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 22:04, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
 * My apologies for making it longer than it should have been. -Lord vader1414 15:35, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

vader mini-bust pic
I was reading this review: http://www.quickstopentertainment.com/?p=635 earlier and I thought it might be good to add a picture of this piece into the article or maybe at the end. Normally I wouldn't suggest this but it is really detailed and gives a more clear view of Anakin's wounds than some of the other images out there. The one where he is on fire is kind of dramatic and the scene where he is being masked for the first time is at an odd angle. I'm thinking maybe image 1, or 3. If permission is needed, which I imagine it is, I can message the individual who took those photos and ask. --DannyBoy7783 23:30, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I'd say use the first one and place it at the end of the article somewhere. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 23:31, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I like it, but it's a sculpture. After that "fight", shall we say, over Vader's actis fighter being a toy, is this something we want to add? -Lord vader1414 16:45, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
 * You know, the newly released pictures of the toy of Vader's Actis that was shown at San Diego Comic Con show more detail of the fighter than the current picture does. Observe: URL=http://www.rebelscum.com/photo.asp?image=http://www.rebelscum.com/toys2006/TSCsithfighter2.jpg
 * Still, I'd prefer using an actual image rather than a toy. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 00:45, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Questions
Question!!!! I went to the Star Wars: Science meets Imagination and found that Vader was supposed to sneak over in his suit and attack the Tantive. Does anyone have any guesses why he changed this????? Does anyone have a guess at all?? please i'm at a loss for ideas
 * You mean like float out of Devastator to attack Tantive IV? Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 13:31, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes it said so in the audio. he was originally in the suit so he could sneak undetected to the tantive.
 * Thank God they changed it, then... Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 13:50, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Probably because, due to the fact it was 1977, it wouldn't look good. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 13:58, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Vader vs. Maul
Okay, I've been out of the loop for a little while, but I always thought that this fight was non-canon. Has that changed? - Angel Blue 451 Really? I wasn't aware of that. Thanks for clearing that up. - Angel Blue 451
 * Yes. It's been made canon. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 22:52, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
 * No problem. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 00:20, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Limbs and Force
With Darth Vader's false limbs can he still use force powers like Force jump and Force push?


 * force jump, yes, force push yes, we see his jumping abilities against maul when he is resurected. push, he used tk all the time in films, books etc.Jedi Dude 22:26, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Although I'd say his ability to use these powers was limited. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 00:00, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Limited when? Darth Xarcon 8:34, 3 August 2006
 * On Mustafar. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 11:40, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Quote.
Okay, what is it: "He's..." or "Vader is..."? I've always heard "He's..." Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) 17:11, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Have faith admiral, I'm sure the line was "He's...". Darth Kevinmhk 17:46, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I have no doubt that it's "He's..." Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 17:47, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Does Vader eat?
I mean, with the mask and all. He invited Han Solo to join him for breakfast in Episode V but we didn't actually see him eat. --216.254.103.174 02:39, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Before I explain how he eats, let me just say that when he "invited Han to eat", they probably didn't eat. ;) Anyway, Vader "eats" through feeding tubes in his egg-like chamber, which he apparently had a lot of. I believe that Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader said this. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 12:47, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Darth Vader's talent
Yoda's part of the quote seems unnecessary in this context. What do you guys think? - Angel Blue 451 02:09, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Agree. Palpy's part was enough. Darth Kevinmhk 03:21, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
 * If there are no objections, I am going to remove the irrelevant part. - Angel Blue 451 13:04, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I disagree. The "misplaced faith in your apprentice" part is good, because it seems to point to when Anakin returns to the light side. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 14:10, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I understand, but that is not particularly related to "talents". Darth Kevinmhk 15:48, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
 * But the first part is. And it would be a rather stupid idea to have them as separate quotes, in my opinion. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 19:12, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

The Suit
Is it just me or does it seem odd that the suit was ready when Vader reached Coruscant. It would take time to design the mask and fit everything right. It would require very detailed foresight to have everything ready for Vaders arrival. Could it be that Palpatine set Vader up to weaken him so that Vader would be incapable of overthrowing him.
 * Possibly, but I doubt it. Palpatine didn't want Vader too weak. As for the suit being ready, who knows. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 23:24, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
 * According to the novel, those droids actually "spent many days rebuilding (Darth Vader)." Darth Kevinmhk 04:05, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I myself don't have the novel, but that seems to be a logical explanation. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 20:38, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Darth: The Name?
This may have been proved somewhere else and in some other circles, but I am under the impression that George Lucas intended to have the Sith title of "Darth" the actual first name of Vader. This is hinted at in Ep IV: A New Hope where Obi-Wan actually calls Vader "Darth" in the intention of it being his actual first name. Mikda Fopal
 * I'm thinking the same thing. "Darth Vader", after all, was meant to be an Imperial general in the first place, if I'm not mistaken. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 20:38, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

sentence
I'm tryining to figure out what this sentence means in the book Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader. ''This time Vader decided to show Shryne whom he was dealing with. Holding his lightsaber to one side, he raised his right hand to turn the blaster bolts''. does any body know what this means?
 * It means Vader wanted to show Shryne that he was no match for him so he used his bare hand to deflect lightsaber bolts. --Petiflo 17:59, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
 * he raised his right hand to turn the blaster bolts . It does not say anything about deflecting the bolts and it says blaster bolts not lightsaber bolts.
 * I think it's supposed to mean he stopped the blaster bolts with his hand like he did in ESB when Han Solo tried shooting him. -- I need a name 20:02, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeah, "turn" could mean deflect in this context. -LtNOWIS 20:08, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
 * That's probably it. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 20:50, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks! That info helps alot!
 * No problem. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 00:52, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Vader image
*Do we really need this image in the article? Besides the fact that its bad quality and doesn't really show anything; it's in an awkward place. We don't have to have an image of Vader on the article just because it exists. Jasca Ducato Sith Council (Sith campaign) 18:26, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, if it is decided to keep this image, there's no other place for it to go. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 18:31, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I think it should be removed. First because we see him from behind, second in a particularly uninteresting activity. --Petiflo 18:46, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree. It really doesn't do anything for the article, and we could even replace it with a better one. - Angel Blue 451 19:06, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Then lets just remove it. Like i said, we don't have to have the image on the page. Jasca Ducato Sith Council (Sith campaign)[[Image:SOFD.PNG|20px]] 19:23, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Fine, but you might want to fix the locations of the images after that. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 22:36, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I'll handle it. - Angel Blue 451 22:52, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I mean sides, not locations. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 22:58, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I took care of it. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 23:01, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I think we were both trying to, I got the "someone else has changed this page" message when I tried to save my changes. - Angel Blue 451 23:04, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Oops, sorry. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 23:10, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Don't worry about. The article is fixed, and that's the important thing. - Angel Blue 451 23:12, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Very true, although I probably could have just left the picture out in the first place. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 23:13, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Suit intentionally limiting Vader's abilities
I've made a few edits that all have factual report and Nebulax has reverted each one. The edit Nebulax made to the bit about Palpatine's attitude to Vader and Luke is I suppose fine, but this needs addressing:

"Vader suspected that it intentionally limited his abilities." Later passages in Dark Lord and the RotS novel proves this is wrong. There is no evidence that the intent of the suit was to limit his abilities at all. The article should note this, or this sentnece should be removed.Vymer 16:15, 24 August 2006 (UTC) Even so, without pointing out that it's not true, it would lead the reader to believe it actually has some basis. Vader suspects lots of things in Dark Lord, we don't need to mention them unless they're right, or if we do, we should say what the facts are, no?Vymer 16:15, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
 * You might want to re-read that sentence. Vader suspected. It doesn't say "The suit limited his abilities". Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 16:14, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Potential Power
Shouldn't there be a mention how in Dark Lord, despite GL's "80% of the Emperor" remarks, Palpatine himself believes that Vader *still has access* to the tremendous potential of Anakin Skywalker (albeit without being able to call on Force lightning)? And believes that it is only his state of mind that prevents Vader from drawing upon it as he once did.

Yes, Vader was not precisely what he had bargained for. Vader's legs and arms were artificial, and he would never be able to summon lightning or leap about like the Jedi had been fond of doing. His dark side training was just beginning. But Sith power resided not in the flesh but in the will. Self-restraint was praised by the Jedi only because they didn't know the power of the dark side. Vader's real weaknesses were psychological rather than physical, and for Vader to overcome them he would need to be driven deeper into himself, to confront all his choices and his disappointments...

...Fundamental to Vader's growth was the desire to overthrow his Master...

...Now, however, incapable of so much as breathing on his own, Vader could not rise to the challenge, and Sidious understood that he would need ot do everything in his power to shake Vader out of his despair, and reawaken the incredible power within him

Even at Sidious' own peril.

Now, I'm aware that what GL says takes precedence... but since this book came out *after* the generalised "80% of the Emperor" comments, shouldn't it's position be considered the more accurate? At least until Lucas says "Dark Lord was wrong", or somesuch?

Anyway, I'll let you guys ponder over it.(195.92.168.166 21:16, 29 August 2006 (UTC))

I don't doubt that Vader never fully capitalises on his potential - but this is because he is *never* fully "shaken out of his despair". To think otherwise is folly. Sure, he pushes a great deal of it to the back of his mind in Dark Lord and moves on to an extent, but there is always that part of goodness in him that is screaming "WHAT HAVE YOU DONE!?". His inability to fully utilise his potential is more psychological than physical. Had Vader had *no* regrets about what he did, had Vader *no* good left in him, he'd have probably have become far more than he ended up being. After all, Shadows of the Empire shows us that he has the power to *fully heal himself* through use of the Dark Side. He *is* actually learning the powers over life and death that he always wanted - the fact is that it is his goodness, an aspect of his *psyche* - that prevents him from being fully healed.
 * Wow. If this came out after his 80% of Palpatine's power, then we should accept it as canon, of make refrence to it. It was published in a novel, so we can't just ignore it. Xepeyon 14:29, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
 * ...yet this quote from The Rise of Darth Vader has not contradict George's comment. Darth Kevinmhk 14:32, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I meant that Vader never truly lost his potential, and that it was his state of mind that held him back. Xepeyon 14:37, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Long after Vader overcame his despair, even after finding back Luke and really wanna overthrow Palpatine, Vader still could not reach his former self, as shown in Shadows of the Empire, which suggested that Vader need Luke's help if he ever wanna heal the Mustafar injuries. Darth Kevinmhk 14:40, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Besides, it's not like Palpatine just sits still and doesn't improve from RotS to RotJ (and from then on into Dark Empire... *shudder*). AND he's withholding knowledge, so it's not like Vader being unable to rise up against him is unrealistic - we're talking about one of the most powerful Sith Lords of all time ever...

I've heard some people tell me that my take on Vader's situation "doesn't make sense, because why would Palpas want to replace Vader with Luke if Vader was still uber" but Luke is *still* a preferable alternative to Vader as a Sith apprentice, as he is capable of generating Force lightning and, by all accounts, has near as dammit the same Force potential as his daddy. It is, in fact the *alternative* that doesn't make sense - that Vader has only 40% of the potential of Anakin Skywalker. Why would Palpatine *bother* rescuing Anakin if that were the case?

He recalled thinking: What if Anakin should die? How many years would he have had to search for an apprencite even half as powerful in the Force...

Also:

Vader: And what if you should find one stronger than I? Palpatine: There are none.

Hardly true if he's no longer got Anakin Skywalker's potential.

The truth of the matter is that the EU has decided not to run with the "80%" remarks, at least to be taken to mean that vader is *physically* incapable of reaching near as dammit his full potential (minus lightning). No source from the actual films themselves contradict this stance, just an offhand remark by George Lucas to Rolling Stone magazine (I believe), which was for more casual SW fans anyway.

Anyway, I'd suggest that we include Palpatine's opinion of Vader's potential in the article (clearly listed as Palaptine's opinion), because as he *is* his sith master, it is something should be aware of, and it goes some length to explaining why he'd keep him on after he was crippled. In fact, I think I might go and add it now.(195.92.168.168 13:02, 1 September 2006 (UTC))
 * Ok, the first bit now reads:

As Anakin, he had the greatest known midi-chlorian count in the Galaxy, surpassing the count of both Yoda and Palpatine. However, after his limbs were severed and his body severely burned on Mustafar he supposedly lost much of his Force potential. As Darth Vader, Anakin was believed to have had roughly 80% of the strength of the Emperor. But even still, Vader wielded tremendous power and skill. It is put foward by some that had he sustained none of his injuries on Mustafar he would have been twice as powerful as the Emperor.

"Sith power resided not in the flesh but in the will"

- Emperor Palpatine thinks on his apprentice's condition

The Emperor, having gone out of his way to keep Vader alive, took an alternative viewpoint. Though it was true to say that he had not bargained for an apprentice "more machine now, than man", Palpatine was of the opinion that most of the limitations on Vader's potential power were not physical but psychological. He believed that were Vader to fully confront his choices and disappointments, to completely shake himself out of his despair, that he would have been able to "reawaken the incredible power within him". Yet, while Vader made progress in this regard, he was never fully able to accept who, and what, he had become.

-- I think that's fair enough, wouldn't you? It keeps the majority of the original stuff intact, yet also acknowledges the viewpoint of Palpatine as presented in Dark Lord. To be honest, I'd like to see some reworking of the whole "talents" section - because it would make more sense for the Sidious stuff to come after both the "80%" comments AND the stuff about Vader not being able to cast Force lightning. But this will do for now. (195.92.168.168 13:35, 1 September 2006 (UTC)) Though actually, "suspected" works better.
 * I've editted the section a bit to make it say "As Anakin, he had the greatest known midi-chlorian count in the Galaxy, surpassing the count of both Yoda and Palpatine. However, after his limbs were severed and his body severely burned on Mustafar he lost much of his Force potential. As Darth Vader, Anakin was believed to have had roughly 80% of the strength of the Emperor. But even still, Vader wielded tremendous power and skill. Had he sustained none of his injuries on Mustafar, he would have most likely been twice as powerful as the Emperor.". Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 17:23, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Nebulax, I think its a mistake to remove the "supposedly lost much of his Force potential" from the paragraph. The reason I changed it was because previously (and now again) it was stated as fact, when the entire point of the original edit was to suggest that this was *not neccessarily* the case and was in fact but one viewpoint. I'd take the in universe opinion of Darth Sidious, who you'd have thought would know his stuff when it comes to the Force, over anything else. (195.92.168.164 18:16, 1 September 2006 (UTC))

"After his limbs were severed and his body severely burned on Mustafar, he is suspected to have lost much of his Force potential."

Yeah, that works, for a start Anakin suspects it himself in universe - and secondly, it doesn't automatically override the viewpoint expressed by Sidious by claiming to be fact. (195.92.168.164 18:20, 1 September 2006 (UTC))
 * Except Lucas said that Anakin lost much of his Force potential himself, and Wookieepedia isn't from Palpatine's point of view. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 19:01, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
 * True enough - but I'd already *covered* Lucas' remarks. Dark Lord was written and released *after* the comments Lucas made about Anakin's force potential and Luceno, through Palpatine, makes it clear that Vader's power is limited by his *psyche* and *not* having his limbs chopped off. Sidious is experienced enough with the Force *not to be wrong* in this regard. Since everything has to go through Lucas Liscensing first, one assumes that this is the new position that they have adopted, and since Wookieepedia deals primiarly with C-Canon, and since there is nothing in the films that contradicts it, it can be taken as fact until Lucas comes out and either reaffirms his original 80% remarks, or says "Dark Lord is wrong". He has not done so. Lucas' comments override *previous* C-Canon, not future C-Canon, which remains canon until he says something to override it. Since he has not said anything about 80% of the Emperor *since* Dark Lord's writing, the assumption is that this *is no longer the truth*. He's obviously not really that bothered about the "80%" thing, because if he was he'd have declared discussing Vader's potential off limits in the EU. He hasn't. The only known physical limitation Vader has is an inability to cast Force lighting. The fact of the matter is, it is simply inaccurate to declare with absolute certainty that Vader lost 60% of his potential and became 80% of the Emperor since we have been given the new information from Dark Lord. The use of "suspected" or "supposedly" covers all the bases. (195.92.168.167 23:51, 1 September 2006 (UTC))


 * You might want to check the bit on "G-canon" over at Star Wars canon, then. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 00:58, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Logic:


 * 1) Everything Lucas films/says is within G-Canon and the highest possible level. It cannot be contradicted within continuity.
 * 2)  C-Canon that was in place before a G-Canon comment therefore *must* be overriden by the new G-Canon information. Boba Fett was Jaster Mareel? No, he was a clone of Jango Fett because AotC says so. End of.
 * 3)  New information produced by one of the various LucasBrands cannot override what is accepted to be G-Canon. (This is as far as you've got ;) )
 * 4)  ERGO such information will NOT be produced unless what WAS previous G-Canon is NO LONGER G-Canon. Any other alternative undermine the integrity of G-Canon. (Why would LucasBrand publish incorrect information on purpose?)
 * 5)  Playing devil's advocate is fun ;)

In a sense, I still do believe that Vader "Lost most of his potential after Mustafar", I just disagree that it was primarily to do with his physical handicap.

Whatever... "suspected" is more accurate *either way*, since last I checked, Wookieepedia's policy is to present itself as an "in universe" encyclopedia whenever possible. (Has this changed? If so dismiss this argument) Since people *in universe* cannot POSSIBLY know that Vader lost exactly 80% of his potential after his injuries on Mustafar (it is never stated by anyone in universe, and it's not exactly something that they can record), it holds to reason that they would use words such as "suspected" or "speculated".

Haha... do you ever wonder why we waste time on this sort of thing? I've got a million other things I should be doing, yet here I am, arguing on a "Star Wars Wikipedia" over different layers of Star Wars canon that most people in the world wouldn't give a damn about. It's good to be a fan :D (195.92.168.165 00:18, 3 September 2006 (UTC)) Finally, Dark Lord's level of canon cannot contradict G-canon. - You
 * Wookieepedia is in-universe, yes, but out-of-universe canon has to be incorporated into it. We can't just get rid of G-canon material. Also, your opinion is that "suspected" should be in that sentence. Well, it doesn't seem like that opinion is shared by everyone else. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 01:19, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
 * To be fair Neb, we’re the only ones who seem to care either way… “Suspected” is more accurate in that it doesn’t rule out anything – maybe Dark Lord was wrong to contradict George’s statement, but we don’t *know* that it was and it did come out after, so it’s a mistake to state “Vader became only 80% of the Emperor because of his injuries” as out and out fact. Even *with* suspected (as opposed to my original “supposedly” – which in hindsight I can see was undermining), it still reads in such a way that the reader is going to assume that it is fact – so it works perfectly well for what you want to convey. It’s one word that leaves the door ajar, as opposed to having it bolted shut. And I haven’t, for one moment, said we should “get rid of G-Canon material” – “George Lucas 80% thing” is still in the article either way. You’re missing my point time and time again, the point is; how can it be G-Canon, the “uncontradictable canon”, if it has been contradicted within continuity since it was stated? As I said before, maybe it was a mistake, but we do not *know* that it was, so until we know for sure, it is simply more accurate to say “suspected”, or “believed”… hell, “believed” works even better. (195.92.168.165 12:38, 3 September 2006 (UTC))
 * Besides, if you're right - then how can Legacy exist? George Lucas specifically said "Anakin's offspring redeem him and allow him to fulfill the prophecy where he brings Balance to the Force by doing away with the Sith and getting rid of evil in the universe...". :P By your logic, because Lucas said all evil was destroyed in the universe, we can't have Legacy in Wookieepedia since it contradicts "G-Level canon". *Raspberry noise*(195.92.168.165 12:56, 3 September 2006 (UTC))
 * Actually, Lucas is right on that&mdash;from a certain point of view. First, Vader had trained Dark Jedi in the ways of the Sith, so when Palpatine and Vader died, they were free to assume the title of Sith. Also, Palpatine did return in a series of clone bodies. Second, "evil" is simply a point of view. An Imperial could look at a Rebel and say that he/she's evil, and vice versa. Finally, Dark Lord's level of canon cannot contradict G-canon. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 13:19, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Hehe. Couldn't have said it better myself. The above in fact supports my argument and it's what I've been bringing up time and time again.


 * 1) Dark Lord's level of canon CANNOT contradict G-Canon
 * 2) Dark Lord contradicted a previous statement by George Lucas
 * 3) Therefore that particular statement made by George Lucas CANNOT be G-Canon

The above logic is sound, and as far as I can see, valid. Points 1 and 2 are fact, and point 3 is the inevitable conclusion that must be drawn from it.

Game, set, match.

Now, if you (or anyone actually) want to tell me that the logic used is *invalid*, by proving that Dark Lord did *not* contradict the statement made by George Lucas, feel free. I don't see how you can however, since it explicitly states - through a character that has ridiculous knowledge of the Force and how it works - that Vader can "reawaken the incredible power within him". The fact he never *does*, and that a part of him continues to mope over his misfortune, is irrevelant. Vader could still have been Uber (though not *quite* as uber as an unmaimed Anakin, due to the lack of lightning/leaping about - which is why Luke is still a preferable alternative).

Why object so much over one word? Would you prefer "apparently"? Come on, I'm the one making all the concessions (I've gone from "supposedly", to "suspected/believed" and now to "apparently") and I'm RIGHT - surely you can make a few when you're wrong :P. (195.92.168.165 01:35, 4 September 2006 (UTC))
 * No, because George Lucas said, in a G-canon statement, that Anakin had only 80% of the Emperor's strength after Mustafar. "Supposedly", "suspected", "believed", "apparently", and anything else you can come up with won't be in the article where you want it to be, because this whole thing is over. Lucas said what he said, and that's canon&mdash;as well as the end of this discussion. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 01:41, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
 * (Whoosh) :) What's the point in posting the exact same point that I've now dissected with logic *twice* (you even got formal logic the second time around). Besides, George Lucas cannot say anything *in* a G-Canon statement, what he says IS the G-Canon statement. If it remains G-Canon (unlike, for instance, the original G-Canon of Obi-Wan being Owen Lar's brother) it won't be contradicted and any conflicting C-Canon that was written previously will be retconned and made fit around it. If it doesn't remain G-Canon (And Lucas is notorious for changing his mind willy nilly), the later C-Canon will ignore it, ala Legacy and Dark Lord. You're committing a logical fallacy here buddy (I'm not sure which one, there's a list over at wikipedia if you want to look them up)


 * Hmm. Going nowhere, this is. We really need more people than just the pair of us discussing this "issue" (if you can call it that, we're talking about one word here that simply ensures maximum accuracy with the knowledge we have). I'm also getting the distinct impression you're taking this personally or something, or feel affronted... maybe it's just exasperation, in which case I can definately relate, because at the moment it's just:


 * 1) I reaffirm my position
 * 2) You reaffirm your position
 * 3) Go on into infinity


 * It's pointless and, though I have been enjoying it, it's now becoming a bit boring. (That said, was it you who changed it from "80%" to "eight tenths"? Good move.) Anyway, I think we're probably going to need an admin to read this over and come down on one side or the other or something. If they decide in favour of me, maybe you'll finally drop it. If they decide in favour of you, I'll disagree, but I'll stop moaning about it. :) How's that sound? Or you know, maybe some other people besides us could give us their thoughts? Anyone?(195.92.168.170 14:37, 4 September 2006 (UTC))


 * Lucas said what he said, and that's G-canon. We're not going to add any word to change it from what Lucas said. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 14:41, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
 * G-Canon is law (as far as Star Wars is concrned), anything that contradicts it whether published before or after is non-canon. Jasca Ducato Sith Council (Sith campaign)[[Image:SOFD.PNG|20px]] 15:13, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Exactly. That sentence stays as-is. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 15:14, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Jasca dude, that doesn’t dismiss anything I’ve said. The simple fact of the matter is that not every statement made by George Lucas remains G-Canon. We have explicit proof that this is true, since Legacy exists.


 * Legacy would not be written if it contradicted G-Canon, yet it goes against a statement made by George Lucas. Therefore it is impossible for every statement made by George Lucas to always stay G-Canon. You can be as dogmatic as you like, all I’m stating is the truth, simple and plain.


 * The only person in this discussion that has posted a viable argument against my position is Darth Kevinmhk. The problem is that he didn't elaborate on how the exerpt from Dark Lord *didn't* contradict George's comment.


 * Ultimately, this is a nitpick, I *got* what I really wanted into the article, but it’s a niggling nitpick that won’t let me go. Anyway, I’m going to leave this for now – because I fear I may end up giving Nebulax a hernia by the end :) – and hopefully we’ll have some more comments. Peace guys.(195.92.168.163 20:43, 4 September 2006 (UTC))

Hey Jasca, long time no read, howya bin? :) Once again you haven't read the full discussion. :P
 * Actually, it dismisses everything you said. As i said before, George's word is law. Unless he decides against something he previously said it remains canon regardless of later publisings. And Legacy would exist because nothing GL has said contradicts it. Face it, the 80% thing is correct. Please stop argueing. Jasca Ducato Sith Council (Sith campaign)[[Image:SOFD.PNG|20px]] 21:24, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Earlier: "George Lucas specifically said "Anakin's offspring redeem him and allow him to fulfill the prophecy where he brings Balance to the Force by doing away with the Sith and getting rid of evil in the universe...".

This is clearly not the case, since evil continues to exist throughout the universe. Was it probably hyperbole by Mr Lucas? Yeah, but he still said it, and therefore it SHOULD be G-Canon. But it's not. Or is it...? duhn duhn duhhhhhhhhn! (Ulicus 22:10, 4 September 2006 (UTC))
 * It actually is still G-canon. Evil can never die. Everything evil in the universe can be destroyed, but the fact that evil existed in the first place allows it to continue. Why? Because someone can here about evil and decide to be evil. It's like dinosaurs. Yes, they all died out a very long time ago, but the memory of dinosaurs still lives on, and I know a group of kids that wanted to be dinosaurs when they were five or six years old. Nothing can ever truly be gone for good. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 23:49, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
 * (Suddenly see my name reappears in this out of control discussion) Come on, do you really think killing Vader and Palpy will get rid of all the evil in the universe forever? That's just impossible. And the Sith, it's just a banner. The real ancient Sith died a long time ago, even New Sith Empire & Order of the Sith Lords were just organizations which took up the impressive name. Darth Kevinmhk 01:54, 5 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Just a thought- this controversy about George Lucas' remarks and Dark Lord- does what GL said really contradict Dark Lord? Yes, after Mustafar he lost much of his power, etc, and it was as a consequence of his injuries. But could those injuries be said to have caused his psychological malaise?
 * The reason this is controversial I think is because in this case James Luceno demonstrated a far superior grasp of the "spirit" of the Original Trilogy than George Lucas did! Yoda said it outright: luminous beings are we, not this crude matter (grabbing Luke's arm). Judge me by my size, do you? Heck, James Luceno has Palpatine say those exact words to Vader. I will always despise the whole Vader injury/ less powerful thing for being another step in the demystification of the Force that began in TPM.

Damn, I'm rambling. What GL says in this regard is canon (however unfortunate and contradictory with Yoda it is), but one may make the case that Dark Lord doesn't really contradict it. Those are my thoughts.Vymer 05:39, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Still, I just don't want to see "supposedly" or anything like it where the anon wanted to put it. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 11:16, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Just a thought- this controversy about George Lucas' remarks and Dark Lord- does what GL said really contradict Dark Lord? Yes, after Mustafar he lost much of his power, etc, and it was as a consequence of his injuries. But could those injuries be said to have caused his psychological malaise?


 * Yeah, I'd agree with that anaylsis, earlier on I said: In a sense, I still do believe that Vader "Lost most of his potential after Mustafar", I just disagree that it was primarily to do with his physical handicap. which was meant to suggest that.


 * But the article as it stands makes it out that it's due to "midi-chlorians getting cut off". Which is the most ridiculously stupid thing I've ever heard. This implies means that the larger you are, the more chance you have of being Force sensitive... which, whilst amusing, seems rather, uh, trite, to be honest.


 * Neb, trust me, I think we've *all* got the picture that you don't want to put "supposedly" in the article. What you haven't grasped is that "apparently" does not *have* to be "anything like it".

(From a quick "google define")


 * ''Supposedly


 * 1) purportedly: believed or reputed to be the case

This works for me, but not for you. Understandable. Can easily be read in such a way to imply that it is the belief of a lay audience and nothing more.


 * Apparently


 * 1) from appearances alone; "irrigation often produces bumper crops from apparently desert land"; "the child is seemingly healthy but the doctor is concerned"; "had been ostensibly frank as to his purpose while really concealing it"-Thomas Hardy; "on the face of it the problem seems minor"


 * 1) obviously: unmistakably (`plain' is often used informally for `plainly'); "the answer is obviously wrong"; "she was in bed and evidently in great pain"; "he was manifestly too important to leave off the guest list"; "it is all patently nonsense"; "she has apparently been living here for some time"; "I thought he owned the property, but apparently not"; "You are plainly wrong"; "he is plain stubborn"


 * See? "Apparently" can be read in such a way that it implies fact, so adding it does not detract *anything*.


 * You can read: "Vader unmistakably lost Force potential". Whilst I can read: "From all appearances, Vader lost Force potential", and it means that the article doesn't dismiss ANY level of canon.


 * Remember, the Star Wars canon policy as espoused by Leland Chee is to INCLUDE EVERYTHING WHEN AT ALL POSSIBLE. In this case, it IS possible for Wookieepedia to do so. Come on, get back within 90 degrees, it's warm and cosy :). (195.92.168.164 13:27, 5 September 2006 (UTC))


 * Anon, stop disputing G-canon. It's over. The sentence is not going to be changed. You're just upset that you're not getting your way. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 20:18, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes. That's exactly it. You're totally right. I just couldn't see it before. I've been acting with extreme selfishness :( and in incredible bad taste. I've not even been reading your varied and well thought out responses. I was such an idiot to assume that logic applied to everything. I see now that trying to add a word that detracts nothing yet adds further dimension and depth to a paragraph is, in fact, an act of extreme folly and stupidity - not to mention clearly against the Wookieepedia manual of style. Forgive me.


 * And yet, through the entirety of our discourse, you have been warm hearted, friendly and welcoming. It's been a real pleasure having this discussion with you. Sich heil, Admiral.(195.92.168.167 01:22, 6 September 2006 (UTC))

Okay, I just got here, so please don't yell if the discussion is over. But-- correct me if I'm wrong-- the source of the 80% figure is an interview with George Lucas from Rolling Stone, correct? So why is an off-the-cuff remark from GL being considered inarguable G-canon? If that's the case, then we suddenly know what species Yoda is: "He's a frog". Sorry, but I personally think the anon's right. "80% of the Emperor" isn't G-canon. -- SM-716 talk? 04:24, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Anon, I'm having a really rough time, and you weren't make it any better with your edits. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 11:06, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
 * This discussion has gone on long enough its over, anon enough is enough Jedi Dude 11:28, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
 * And sarcasm is not appreciated either anon! And i would not recomend comparing Nubulax to Hitler. Besides the fact that it is a personal attack, if i were an admin and sdaw it you would have been blocked within seconds. Do not do it again. Jasca Ducato Sith Council (Sith campaign)[[Image:SOFD.PNG|20px]] 18:28, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
 * In fact i over-looked that Hitler remark, and i will be informing an admin of this at once. Abuse is not tolerated Jedi Dude 18:34, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
 * And had my admin nomination not failed, I would have banned him the minute he posted that. Just because I'm having issues in real-life doesn't mean they would affect my judgement in having you banned, anon. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 20:19, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Well i've informed SillyDan so he should be removed soon. Maybe have some cool off time Jack? Hope it sorts out Jedi Dude 21:23, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
 * OK, anonymous editor, since you've got a dynamic IP, I'll just tell you here: personal attacks are not tolerated. Your IP range will be banned for 24 hours.  Please don't do that again. &mdash;Silly Dan (talk) 22:01, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Thank you, Silly Dan. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 22:44, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeah, it is. George Lucas was joking when he said that Yoda was a frog. He wasn't joking about this. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 11:06, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I'll agree that the 80% comment probably isn't supposed to be a joke, but we really can't know Lucas's intentions behind a casual remark. Do we know that he meant that it was a precise figure, or was he just ballparking? Do we know that it is a hard rule, or was it just an approximation Lucas kept in mind whenever he was writing scenes with Vader and Palpatine? Do we know that he wasn't just trying to find a way to explain a concept to an interviewer who might not care about or comprehend sci-fi stuff? Was he "dumbing it down"? And before anyone answers any of that: how do you know? I don't think this one-time comment can be held to the same level of authority as the movies which were written, revised, revised again, filmed with multiple takes, edited, re-edited, and generally checked a thousand times over for continuity. Movies are G-canon. Books written by Lucas are G-canon. TV shows produced by Lucas are G-canon. Conversations with journalists are not. -- SM-716 [[Image:716chiss.gif]] talk? 17:14, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Then I suppose some of the stuff Lucas said (like that the Death Star I is in RotS) is not canon, either. Lucas said what he said, and we have to accept it as canon. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 00:33, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Also, what if Lucas were to say what Anakin's actual homeworld was in an interview? We couldn't just dismiss that. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 00:43, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
 * It could work. In the context after mustafar he was only 80% the strength of the emperor, but GL never said that it remained that way for the rest of the series. Nublax maybe a little off base.
 * We know for sure that Vader was 80% the strength after Mustafar. Whether that changed or not is unknown. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 00:54, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I realize this is a dead issue, but I wholeheartedly agree with the anon's point of view, though not with his sarcasm and need to verbally assault our members here, but I believe that EU printed after a "G-Canon" statement should take presedence, otherwise we wouldn't have a lot of the things we have here, think Quinlan Vos when he was shown in the movie there was no thought to him being a jedi, but due to later printed EU works he was incorporated, and got his call out in RotS, this is obviously not a character that was meant to be major at movie shoot time, but because someone who wrote for EU liked the look of him he ended up being a great Jedi that even GL requested not be killed at the end of his series... just my opinion on the matter  N.Y.N.E. Comlink[[Image:sithempire2.png|30px]] 06:09, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
 * The problem with that is, that Vos wasn't explicitly stated in his breif cameo not to be a Jedi, so the Eu could play around with his character. The "80%" comment by GL was stated, so it remains. Darth Abeonis Sith Council (Sith Campaign) 19:48, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

force fly?
can Darth Vader fly?  Jaina Solo  Goddess Stuff 00:22, 31 August 2006 (UTC)  Jaina Solo  Goddess Stuff 00:38, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Anon, what the hell are you on about. Force Fly isn't even real/canon! Jasca Ducato Sith Council (Sith campaign)[[Image:SOFD.PNG|20px]] 18:43, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
 * ...unless you count the way he hovers in Star Wars: Battlefront II... Cutch 20:08, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
 * He's not bloody Neo! Besides, the Force can only go so far. I doubt it can allow someone to go flying around like Superman. Jasca Ducato Sith Council (Sith campaign)[[Image:SOFD.PNG|20px]] 20:10, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
 * About that Battlefront II thing: That would be Force hover, if anything. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 20:11, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Was going to say that, but forgot lol. Jasca Ducato Sith Council (Sith campaign)[[Image:SOFD.PNG|20px]] 20:18, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Let me tell you one thing, though, when I saw "force fly" I thought, "Oh great". Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 20:20, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
 * No anon I don't believe that Vader can Force fly. Force fly isn't a real power I'm afraid.  Jaina Solo  Goddess Stuff [[Image:Jbig3.JPG|20px]] 20:25, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
 * You're a little too late for that, Jaina... ;) Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 20:27, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
 * sorry about calling it force fly, I called it that because I relly didn't know what else to call it. When I watched the lightsaber battle in ESB I noticed that vader lifted right of the ground. I wasn't shere weather it was force jump or something else. And is there relly a force power called force hover?
 * You see it was actually a Force jump . It's okay, that's why it's good to ask questions. I think there might be I'm not sure.
 * Anon, to be truthful, I thought you were just posting nonsense. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 00:33, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Come on people be nice, the person didn't probably know. Once upon a time you guys were anons too.
 * I find this topic very random. A better example of Force jumping is in TPM (Qui gon, Obi and maul fight} and AOTC (Dooku and Yoda). Vader ia horrible at it. If you don't mind me saying so. -- Jabbathehuttgartogg [[Image:Desilijic Clan (Jabba’s Tattoo) .jpg|20px]] [[Image:Desilijic Clan (Jabba’s Tattoo) .jpg|20px]] 00:44, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Special effects is the cause. The Original Trilogy was made over almost 30 years ago so I wouldn't be suprised if someone asked a question like this. The second trilogy has better special effects because it was made using new technology.  Jaina Solo  Goddess Stuff [[Image:Jbig3.JPG|20px]] 01:02, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
 * It could also be retconned that Vader's bulky armor was the cause. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 11:20, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Of cource, I don't read into the whole Vader thing. I'm no expert on him. All I know about him is the Saga. No EU. Though even w/o the armor Dooku and Yoda would have a better jump than him. Vader's more of a figure head to the Emperor., Who'd I'd like to see use "Force Fly" in Ep. 6. -- Jabbathehuttgartogg  [[Image:Desilijic Clan (Jabba’s Tattoo) .jpg|20px]] [[Image:Desilijic Clan (Jabba’s Tattoo) .jpg|20px]] 10:54, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Dooku and Yoda probably could out-jump the suited Vader. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 11:20, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Vader actually only jumps once, I think, in the entire original TRILOGY. So I really don't know. Plus, this is a universe, Special effects don't matter. I think he may jump better in the comics. Though I'm gonna stop this conversation about jumping though, it's really unnecesary. -- Jabbathehuttgartogg [[Image:Desilijic Clan (Jabba’s Tattoo) .jpg|20px]] [[Image:Desilijic Clan (Jabba’s Tattoo) .jpg|20px]] 18:52, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, OOU, special effects do matter, but you're right. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 18:55, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I care about the effects. I mean in the STAR WARS universe. Sorry about that. -- Jabbathehuttgartogg [[Image:Desilijic Clan (Jabba’s Tattoo) .jpg|20px]] [[Image:Desilijic Clan (Jabba’s Tattoo) .jpg|20px]] 18:57, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
 * No need to apologize. You were talking about in-universe, and I talked about out-of-universe. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 19:00, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Just going back to the "Force Fly" or "Force Jump" part of this discussion - according to the Roleplaying Game Revised Core Rulebook the ability to "fly" using the Force is called "Force Flight". It is on page 105 under feats. Further information about this ability can be found on page 108. Quote - You can wrap yourself in the Force and move yourself toward a specific destination. Don't know if this helps this discussion in any way. SecondSight 20:02, 01 September 2006.
 * Well, still, Vader didn't use Force flight. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 19:06, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, we now know it exists. So that's good. That is important to our conversation. -- Jabbathehuttgartogg [[Image:Desilijic Clan (Jabba’s Tattoo) .jpg|20px]] [[Image:Desilijic Clan (Jabba’s Tattoo) .jpg|20px]] 19:09, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Not really, though, since Vader didn't use it. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 19:11, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Agreed. I can't see Vader using Force Flight in any of the Trilogy films. SecondSight 20:12, 01 September 2006
 * He didn't even use Force hover, did he? Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 19:17, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Not to my knowledge. SecondSight 20:18, 01 September 2006
 * So bringing this conversation back to the question. Can Darth Vader fly? Going on evidence there are two sides. Canon says no whilst Non-Canon says yes. As far as we can all tell Vader doesn't fly in any kind. In games, including Star Wars: Battlefront II he hovers in a fashion that would suggest he flies. Facing the canon facts he CANNOT fly in ANY KIND of way. I suggest the anon person who posted this question specify where they beleive Vader flies. This would give us a better starting point. If this question was rasied as a general question, then the answer depends on weather you want canon or non-canon information. SecondSight 20:38, 1 September 2006
 * I think he only saw the main picture we currently have, it might suggest Vader is just now landing. - TopAce 19:43, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Fair point. SecondSight 20:47, 1 September 2006
 * From above: "When I watched the lightsaber battle in ESB I noticed that vader lifted right of the ground. I wasn't shere weather it was force jump or something else". Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 22:31, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Well it was a bad force jump, that's all besides Battle Front: II is a video game, just a game.  Jaina Solo  Goddess Stuff [[Image:Jaina_19_(2).jpg |20px]] 22:39, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, the majority of the stuff in the game is canon, but some things are definitely wrong in there. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 22:44, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
 * A Video game still has a place in the SW universe. It's not JUST a game, it's an ADDITION, like Bounty Hunter and Empire at War. It adds onto a story. Things are wrong in that game, I agree. Jabba only had 9 gamorrean guards, in that it seems to be a lot more. That's Just something I've noticed when I played it while were on the subject. Though to me, it gets boring after Jabba's Palace. I never finished it. -- Jabbathehuttgartogg  [[Image:Desilijic Clan (Jabba’s Tattoo) .jpg|20px]] [[Image:Desilijic Clan (Jabba’s Tattoo) .jpg|20px]] 22:49, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Though vader most likly could not fly, we still no that vader still could use force jump. just not as well as he used to.
 * Yes. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 00:57, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
 * But Force Jump isn't flying, is it? SecondSight 15:04, 2 September 2006
 * No. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 14:37, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
 * So going back to the question at hand once again - Can Vader fly? SecondSight 14:39, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Doubt it. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 14:40, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
 * No. Jasca Ducato Sith Council (Sith campaign)[[Image:SOFD.PNG|20px]] 19:02, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
 * So the answer to this question posted by anon is No. Is everyone happy with that? SecondSight 19:06, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeah, except that we came to that conclusion already. ;) Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 19:14, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I demand a recount! Or something... EVERYONE knows Darth Vader can fly! I even read it on SuperShadow! It MUST be true. Didn't you see him floating down the stairs on Cloud City? That was TOTALLY flying. :P(195.92.168.165 00:22, 3 September 2006 (UTC))
 * I hope you're joking. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 01:19, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
 * He mst be hes got a :P lol, otherwise we should be worried :P Jedi Dude 12:46, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
 * "Didn't you see him floating down the stairs on Cloud City. That was TOTALLY flying". If you are refering to Star Wars: The Empire Strikes Back where he duels Luke, he jumps down the stairs. Unless I'm missing the point here, in which case someone tell me, he jumps. HE DOES NOT FLY IN CLOUD CITY. SecondSight 13:38, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
 * "Star Wars Fans Don't Have Any Sense of Humour" is G-Canon now? (195.92.168.163 14:11, 5 September 2006 (UTC))
 * I dunno, ar eyou George Lucas? No, so i doubt it. Jasca Ducato Sith Council (Sith campaign)[[Image:SOFD.PNG|20px]] 18:52, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Heard you were discussing Force Flight here; this doesn't effect Vader, but the Dark Forces Saga roleplaying expansion for Maw discusses the power in a non-gameplay narrative, though the narrative does immediately precede a list of game mechanics (see his Talk:Maw (Jedi) for the quote). When we eventually do get an article for Force Flight, we can probably mention Vader potentially using it in Battlefront, but nowhere else. -BaronGrackle 22:38, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I'll start up the Force Flight article then. Once I've put something into it, can you add your stuff into it? SecondSight 08:08, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Okay, now we're getting off the subject of Vader. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 11:11, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Vader vs. Sidious
We all see and know Sids killed Vader with his force lightning. Therefore Sids wouldve a force duel. However, what wouldve happened if Vader and Sidious clashed Sabers rather than Vader simply tossing his master over the railing??


 * Well, I know Sids wouldve PAWNED vader in a saber duel then finished Luke. Therefore remaining the most powerful being in the galaxy.
 * What is the point of this discussion?--Darth OblivionComlink[[Image:Oldsith.jpg|20px]] 23:44, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
 * There isn't, anon stop posting this nonsense now. Jedi Dude 23:46, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Stupid "what if?" topics. Go ask these questions on forums, not here. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 02:19, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Portrayal paragraph needs immediate change
The first paragraph under the subtitle "Portrayal" needs to be changed immediately. It contains a number of offensive terms and possibly erroneous information.
 * That was vandalism by an anonymous IP and has been removed now. --  I need a name  ( Complain here ) [[Image:Sithempire2.jpg|20px]] 13:15, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
 * You know, Poocho, you could have reverted it. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 14:06, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Charred form
I was just watchign "The Chosen one" thing on the Episode III Bonus DVD. and Saw how they fited Hayden with the Mask that made him looke charred? is there any showign of the chard form of Anakin in the film? if so could someone get a screenshot? 65.12.16.150 20:50, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
 * We already have one. -  Angel Blue [[Image:Holocron negwt.jpg|20px]](Holonet) 21:21, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Where is it? I don't see it Valin &quot;Tnu&quot; &quot;Shido&quot; Suul 21:28, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Should be the first section. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 21:30, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
 * is it this one?

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Image:Anakin_in_Flames.jpg

Valin &quot;Tnu&quot; &quot;Shido&quot; Suul 22:10, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, though it looks better in the article than on its actual page. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 23:17, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Mimban Events
The events on Mimban in "Splinter of the Minds Eye" contradict G-canon. The novel was written by Alan Dean Foster without any knowledge about the background of Vader and Luke and is definitely severely outdated since Episode V! It heavily contradicts the movie AND Lucas and should be considered as non-existing. Acoordingly I removed it completely.
 * That's what retcons are for. --  I need a name  ( Complain here ) 13:19, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

There is no retcon in this case. It completely contradicts the movies and novelizations (Vader and Luke meet for the first time on Bespin, thats G-canon e.g.) and should not be considered canon in any way or even mentioned. But of course EU-nerds, no offense, try desperately to include every single bit of information, sacrificing quality for quantity. I already accepted that wookiepedia is awfully EU-infested, using even games and roleplaying-sourcebooks as reference and shouldn't be taken to seriously by those who cannot stand the EU-crap. Really sad, because it could have been such a great asset for star wars fans worldwide. Instead it becomes a dump for the mediocre EU-waste.
 * Hey, SuperShadow. EU is canon. In canon Vader and Luke first met on Mimban, period. Darth Abeonis Sith Council (Sith campaign) 18:45, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Either SuperIdiot himself or one of his followers. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 19:34, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
 * If you don't like the EU, then maybe this isn't the place for you. .  .  .  .  07:09, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Galactic Emperor...for a very short time
Can we consider Vader as being the Emperor for a very short time? I mean, he was indisputably second in line... .  .  .  .  07:09, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
 * No, he turned from the darkside before Palpatine died. So he wasn't Emperor. Darth Abeonis Sith Council (Sith Campaign) 18:57, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Plus, he didn't want to be Emperor any more. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 22:27, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
 * But I would think that a title like Emperor would have an automatic succession system, like the British Crown. Even if you don't want it, you automatically have it as soon as the King or Queen dies. And I would think that as soon as Vader died, Pestage would have automatically been given the title. Not in an official ceremony or anything, but technically, Vader had the Empire in his control for a very short time. The Empire is not dictated by Light or Dark - it's just a government. .  .  .  .  00:07, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
 * There's no evidence Vader was in the Imperial line of succession. QuentinGeorge 00:14, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Exactly. Besides, we're definitely not going to go around spreading stuff saying Vader was Emperor for five minutes. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 01:19, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
 * SOTE claims that Vader was second in line in terms of succession. .  .  .  .  01:44, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Quote please. QuentinGeorge 01:49, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
 * It's not a direct quote - but general gist of the SOTE novel is that Xizor has to eliminate Vader and take his place - so then when Palpatine dies, Xizor will automatically be in a position to be Emperor. .  .  .  .  05:43, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
 * That's speculation, then. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 13:56, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, there might be a direct quote, I don't know, I haven't read SOTE in years. .  .  .  .  23:32, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Whether or not he was next in line, he was not Emperor. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 00:51, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
 * We don't know that. We don't know that he was either. Though he never claimed the title, technically, it was his. See This guy. .  .  .  .  00:57, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
 * We're not adding a succession box in here for Vader as Emperor. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 01:01, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Not saying that we should, but there should be some mention of the technical ascention. .  .  .  .  01:02, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Unless you provide a sourced quote stating Vader was next in line, maybe something could be put in. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 01:13, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Damn...means I have to get SOTE back. When I get it back, I'll provide the quote. .  .  .  .  01:16, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
 * And how long will that take? Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 01:26, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Undetermined. Next time I see my cousin. .  .  .  .  02:22, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Actually, Jack, it'll take about as long as it takes you to find that Gunray quote from LOE ;) .  .  .  .  06:31, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Who said I was looking for it? Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 19:54, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Oh, I thought you did. .  .  .  .  07:17, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Vader's Burns

 * One thing that really boggles me is why was Vader still screaming and moaning after the flames that burned him subsided. With third degree burns, all your nerve endings should be fried at that point, so you shouldn't feel a thing. user:Darth Vatrir
 * He's just grumpy. .  .  .  .  05:44, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Yea, his nerve endings would be fried. But wouldn't you be a bit annoyed if your only remaining organic limbs had just been sliced off? Darth Abeonis Sith Council (Sith Campaign) 08:32, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Or the fact that Obi-Wan had been the one who did that. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 13:58, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Or maybe he was just having a very bad day. Jaina Solo ( Goddess Stuff ) [[Image:Jainasolosig.gif |25px]] 14:06, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Obviously... Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 19:14, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I can understand him screaming angrily, but his screams and moans were agonized, not angry. Agonized screaming and moaning kind of means your in physical pain. user:Darth Vatrir
 * Just ran across this today from South Park: http://youtube.com/watch?v=5hFtNEo9kUY Cutch 20:56, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
 * OK, I just watched that and...what the hell?... user:Darth Vatrir
 * That episode was so funny, I laughed so hard I cried. Jaina Solo ( Goddess Stuff ) [[Image:Jainasolosig.gif |25px]] 22:27, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

A New Pic? (not talking about main image)
Is there a place for this pic anywhere in the article? I think it's pretty darn badass. I was tempted to put it in the personality section, since it's pretty bare, but whatever, I'll leave it with you guys. (Ulicus 01:52, 2 November 2006 (UTC)) Here it is:
 * That's pretty cool. But we need a new main pic anyway, the current one is horrendus. .  .  .  .  01:56, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Correct me if I'm wrong, but that appears to be a guy in a Vader suit in front of Star Tours at Walt Disney World with the pic de-colorized for dramatic effect. -- Ozzel 02:00, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Really? *Blushes* How embarrassing. I just found it on a google search. That said, it's still a pretty cool image... (desparately tries to save face) (Ulicus 10:08, 2 November 2006 (UTC))
 * We could stick it in the behind the scenes. Darth Vatrir
 * No, because the image is copyrighted by whoever took it. --Imp 15:23, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
 * As for the main image, it's not getting replaced. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 15:17, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
 * By this image. Darth Abeonis Sith Council (Sith Campaign) 15:50, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
 * There's nothing wrong with the current main image. Consensus or not, the current image is worthy of being the main image. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 15:52, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm not saying there is, but theres always a better image. Darth Abeonis Sith Council (Sith Campaign) 15:55, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
 * So, you're not saying there's a better image, but you are saying there's always a better image? You're contradicting yourself. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 15:57, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
 * No i'm not. You said there was nothing wrong with the main image, to which i said "I'm not sayin there is". But there are better images out there. Darth Abeonis Sith Council (Sith Campaign) 16:06, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Oh, I see. Sorry. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 16:09, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Aren't we suppose to have headshots as the main image? Jaina Solo ( Goddess Stuff ) [[Image:Jainasolosig.gif |25px]] 16:13, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
 * It's not mandatory, I believe. I'm pretty sure it comes down to which image is of a better quality. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 16:14, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I was asking because I found a headshot that I believe will be perfect for the main image. Jaina Solo ( Goddess Stuff ) [[Image:Jainasolosig.gif |25px]] 16:22, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Could you show us? Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 16:31, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

-- Jaina Solo ( Goddess Stuff ) 16:40, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
 * That's rather poor quality&mdash;ugly compression artifacts. --Imp 17:10, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Agreed. The current one is much better. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 19:11, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I reckon that famous shot of Vader pointing at the camera...for ROTJ would be the best for the infobox. The current infobox image is as much use as page numbers in a diary. .  .  .  .  23:04, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Strange. I don't see any damages to the image. If it pleases the community, I will attempt to clean up anything that might be of distraction in that image (going to have to tell me where the artifacts are since I don't see any). The only problem in my opinion is that it has a blue tint to it (which I fixed in Photoshop and it looks great.) -- Redemption Talk [[Image:Oldrepublic.jpg|15px]] 23:23, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Thefourdot, I just need to ask you a favor. I know you prefer head shots, but still, please don't make it seem like full-body shots aren't needed. It's a little bit rude to those who uploaded them. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 23:30, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Eh, sorry. Full-body shots are needed, just not in the infobox. .  .  .  .  23:37, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Put up the desaturated version. -- Redemption Talk [[Image:Oldrepublic.jpg|15px]] 23:40, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Not bad. I think it needs to come down to a vote, that vote including the version Redemption just put in and the current main image. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 23:41, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks Redemption for uploading a better version of the image. Jaina Solo ( Goddess Stuff ) [[Image:Jainasolosig.gif |25px]] 23:42, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I have to ask that, if it comes down to a headshot, make it Redemption's version. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 23:45, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeah, that's very good. But it might become defucnt if the Great Jedi Merge goes through. Which it should. .  .  .  .  23:49, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Don't get your hopes up, Thefourdot. That's another issue that we've already decided on in the past. The majority currently says no. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 23:52, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
 * The majority used to say that Palpatine should stay as it was. ;) .  .  .  .  23:56, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Whatever, just read my argument on the vote. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 23:59, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Main Pic
Seeing as the Anakin Skywalker and Darth Vader articles have been merged, I say we use this as the main pic, to show both sides of his personality. Just a thought. Lord Darth Vatrir
 * Where's it from? It looks fan-made to me. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 19:54, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
 * More like a promotional poster. I say, thumbs down. -- Redemption Talk [[Image:Oldrepublic.jpg|15px]] 19:55, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Definitely not main image-worthy. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 19:57, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
 * It's got a bunch of dodgy lines on it. And it kinda looks like Vader's sprouting out of Anakin's back. --  I need a name  ( Complain here ) 20:01, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeah. Not good. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 20:03, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Ah well, just a thought. Its still a good pic. Lord Darth Vatrir

Ahem
What the hell happened to this talk page? It's like it's been rogered by an omnibus. . .  .  .  22:03, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Since the articles got merged, I merged the talk pgs so people wouldn't have to keep redirecting back to the former Darth Vader pg (ie: I did it for your convenience). Darth Vatrir
 * Four tildes. And all you did was make the talk page messy. .  .  .  .  07:14, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Well done
to the people who merged the articles. Not only have you upset many users and regular people, but you have exceeded the article size limit to a explosive: WARNING: This page is 157 kilobytes long; some browsers may have problems editing pages approaching or longer than 32kb. Please consider breaking the page into smaller sections.

Isn't there a rule that says that auricles have to be smaller or something? great job on making it the biggest article on wookiepedia, maybe even wiki doesn't have articles this big, Hmmmmm?

Master Nikolce 08:50, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
 * No, there's no rule that articles have to be small. And Palpatine is the largest in Wookieepedia: 241 kilobytes. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 14:37, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
 * And Luke Skywalker's just shy of Anakin at 150kb. .  .  .  .  22:13, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Here's a more appropriate well done: congratulations to those who merged these articles for doing such a good job. I was opposed to the merge, but, hey, it works - \\Captain Kwenn// &mdash; Ahoy! 22:14, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I have to agree. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 23:57, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Solus did all the dirty work. I just merged the bios. .  .  .  .  00:07, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Thank you. I'm glad it works. -Solus 00:24, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Quite ironic(i think) i wasn't at the vote, so i had no idea it happened until yesterday. Another question: If there is no rule for those really huge articles, then whats the point of the warning thing in the edit screen? Master Nikolce 03:52, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
 * That's a technical error for those with the Google Toolbar or some such junk. Are you having problems? If so, ask an admin, you might need to do some tweaking with your explorer or something. If not, what are you complaining about? There's no rule against long articles (as long as the subject warrants it) but there is a rule about having two articles for the one character. We don't have them. .  .  .  .  03:59, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm currently using Mozilla Firefox. For some reason, the loading of anything from wookiepedia is somewhat slow: the info in the middle shows up a bit quick, but the outside eg: my info, watchlist, contributions etc, the side bar on the left screen also loads slow, so does the top "article,discussion tabs etc". pretty much the ouside part of the page. Master Nikolce 04:49, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, I wouldn't know anything about that. But it's hardly an excuse for keeping the articles seperate. .  .  .  .  04:51, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

More pic removal
I believe that several sections of the Anakin article are rather image-heavy. Now, for continuity's sake, at least one image per section/subsection etc. is just fine, but some of these sections have waaaay too many images. If others are in agreement, then may I suggest some images to be removed? If they are approved, I don't mind doing the moving/adjusting work myself, I don't mind at all, it's just that I'm not particularly keen on going overboard image-wise. -Solus 01:44, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree. I've been saying this for some time. A good rule of thumb: No more than 2 pics should be appear on a "screen" at a time. QuentinGeorge 02:00, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Hm, that's a pretty good rule. Never thought of that. Um, do any object to me showing the pics I think need to be removed? -Solus 02:11, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I object to the removal of pictures. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 03:01, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't. There such thing as image overkill - the images should serve the article, not vice-versa. .  .  .  .  03:41, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Jack, why do you object? Remember, this is an article. Text is the main focus of it. Pictures are merely used to support that text. If they distract from the article itself, they should be removed. QuentinGeorge 03:42, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Besides, if you want to see all of the pictures, you can look in the gallery. One image I think can go is Image:Ansion.jpg as you can hardly even see him in it.-- Lord Oblivion Sith holocron[[Image:Oldsith.png|30px]] 04:34, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeah, ax it. .  .  .  .  04:35, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
 * All right. I'm sorry, Jack, but I am going to put up several pictures I think can be removed. We can discuss them here.

I know I'm being harsh here, but that's what discussion's for, right? -Solus 12:48, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
 * The reason I objected is because there's no rule that says only a certain amount of pictures can be put in a single section. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 14:43, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm ok with taking out 3, 4, and 7.-- Lord Oblivion Sith holocron[[Image:Oldsith.png|30px]] 16:40, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I know there's no limit to how many images you can insert per section. It, in all honesty, would be a silly rule. But for aesthetics' sake, some of the pics should be removed. It just doesn't look good when there are too many images. Do any have any objections to taking out images 3, 4, and 7? -Solus 18:42, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Nope. Darth Abeonis Sith Council (Sith Campaign) 19:30, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Uhm, for 7, I would prefer replacement - surely there's a good image of Vader in the SOTME graphic novel? .  .  .  .  20:53, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
 * So I don't count as an objection? Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 21:16, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Cyborg&mdash;infobox mention?
Okay, cyborg isn't a species. But after the Duel on Mustafar, Vader was, as Obi-Wan said, half man and half machine. Considering this, I believe it should be mentioned in the "Species" field of the infobox as it had been for a long time (without any issues, might I add, until now). Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) 21:30, 12 November 2006 (UTC)