Talk:Revan/Legends

More than one apprentice?
I just started a new game of KotOR about an hour ago, and I noticed in the opening crawl that Darth Malak is referred to as the "last surviving apprentice of the Dark Lord Revan." To me, it seems that Revan trained other Sith apprentices along with Malak, but Malak was Revan's chief apprentice. Grand Moff Tranner (Comlink) 14:03, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
 * It cannot be. If you read the Darth Bane novels, you would see that Bane's concept for the "Rule of Two" was based on Revan's teachings: "Every Sith to take more than one apprentice is a fool". That's probably because this era was quite undeveloped at the time, so the concept probably changed... I believe it was written that way so it would seem there were a lot of Sith, which was true. Nanook 01:09, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, that quote doesn't say that Revan only had one apprentice. It could be interpreted that he said that, having failed teaching numerous apprentices. Besides, the opening crawl's "last surviving apprentice of the Dark Lord Revan" could also explain that. Grand Moff Tranner [[Image:Imperial Department of Military Research.svg|20px]] (Comlink) 12:07, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Not to offend anyone here, but you seem to be under the impression that the only time a Sith kills another is to become a Master, that is not the case. It's entirely possible that Alek wasn't Revan's original Sith apprentice, despite their relationship during the Mandalorian Wars, and that Malak eliminated all his competitors to become Darth Revans' apprentice.  Jasca Ducato Sith Council 13:17, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Uh, no, I'm not under that impression. Frankly, I think Malak was the main apprentice, and due to the lack of the Rule of Two, Revan likely trained lesser apprentices (perhaps the Sith Masters found through the game?) as well. Grand Moff Tranner [[Image:Imperial Department of Military Research.svg|20px]] (Comlink) 16:09, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
 * All the sources after the first game came out indicate that Malak was his only apprentice, so no, I don't think he personally trained anyone other than Malak. Til a source come sout saying that he trained other apprentices, we should not add that to the article.--Jedi Kasra 21:13, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
 * What, so the opening crawl means nothing? Am I missing something here? Grand Moff Tranner [[Image:Imperial Department of Military Research.svg|20px]] (Comlink) 22:07, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't know, man. Like I said, let's not do anything until another source comes out, it's won't be long before the Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide is released.--Jedi Kasra 22:18, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Uh, why should we wait when the opening crawl specifically calls Malak Revan's last surviving apprentice? Something needs to be put in the article about that. I'd do it, but it's likely someone would jump down my throat because of it. Grand Moff Tranner [[Image:Imperial Department of Military Research.svg|20px]] (Comlink) 22:23, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Just put it in the BTS section, since nothing is confirmed yet. Like I said, every source calls Malak his only apprentice, and doesn't even give any hint that he had other Sith apprentices.--Jedi Kasra 23:49, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
 * It is entirely possible at the onset of the Mandalorian Wars that Revan had an actual Padawan who became a Sith after the war...but to have another Sith apprentice seems to go against Revan's holocron in PoD...but then again, Karpshyn most likely never knew he would be delving in the EU in an era other than Revan's. Rushin Sundaws 00:07, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
 * It's possible, but it can't go in th earticle until proven by a credible source.--Jedi Kasra 00:33, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I totally agree, perhaps we could just say that he may have had another Sith apprentice or Padawan at sometime before the events of KoTOR. Rushin Sundaws 00:47, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah...--Jedi Kasra (talk) 01:50, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Last I checked, Jedi Kasra, KotOR is a credible source. Why are you so against putting that fact into the article? The opening crawl specifically calls Malak Revan's last surviving apprentice. That needs to be in the article. While whether the other apprentices were Jedi or Sith is unknown, Revan did have at least one other apprentice. Grand Moff Tranner [[Image:Imperial Department of Military Research.svg|20px]] (Comlink) 13:54, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Until we actually get to see another apprentice of Revan which is not Malak, we can't put that fact without mentioning it's just a speculation based on the opening crawl. The opening crawl is not a proof. Nanook 14:58, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Err, are you serous? Drewton  [[Image:Era-old.png|20px]] ( Drewton's Holocron ) 15:03, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Actually we can assume the opening crawl is indeed correct because of the wording of PoD and the opening crawl it does not say "Last surviving Sith apprentice" it says "Last surviving apprentice", therefore it is wrong to 'read in' the word "Sith" as Jedi were also reffered to as apprentices many times. This simply means that all his other apprentices that he ever had are dead, it does not mean that he trained more Sith it in no way says that. I believe that Grand Moff Tranner is 'reading in' more than there really is here.  Ryan Fett  ( For Mandalore! )[[Image:JaingHead.svg|20px]] 15:32, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Perhaps, but the fact remains that Revan had other apprentices, and the opening crawl is proof of that. This is not speculation; this is cold, hard fact. This needs to be mentioned in the article. I'm glad I brought up the issue here before putting it into the article. I didn't realize this would become such a controversy. Grand Moff Tranner [[Image:Imperial Department of Military Research.svg|20px]] (Comlink) 15:35, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Put it in, then. But it has to be clarified that those apprentices were probably not Sith. I don't see it fitting per current status-quo for Revan to have another Sith apprentices. Nanook 15:42, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree Ryan Fett  ( For Mandalore! )[[Image:JaingHead.svg|20px]] 15:44, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I've added the information to a section of the article. It should probably also be mentioned in the introduction.  Drewton  [[Image:Era-old.png|20px]] ( Drewton's Holocron ) 16:00, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Nanook, are you aware that it's very likely Revan had more than one Sith apprentice at a time? The Rule of Two wouldn't be in existence for two thousand years. Yes, Revan used a form of the Rule of Two at least at the end of his reign, but it's not impossible for him to have trained someone else alongside Malak at the beginning of his reign. Grand Moff Tranner [[Image:Imperial Department of Military Research.svg|20px]] (Comlink) 16:29, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Hmphh. I believe we'll just have to live and see, I guess that the answer will be revealed in the comics. I'd like to see another source confirming the theory. Nanook 19:36, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
 * It's the same source as most of this article uses. Drewton  [[Image:Era-old.png|20px]] ( Drewton's Holocron ) 22:38, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Of course. I meant something more of an example. I get the feeling that whatever intentions the author had in mind more than 5 years ago, it has already changed since. How is it no other source claimed similarly in that time? Of course, this is just a feeling. Nanook 13:04, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Maybe he had other apprentices the same way Darth Tyrannus and Vader had Dark Jedi apprentices. Its also possible he added the info about never having more than 1 student in his holocron because some of the apprentices other than Malak tried to gang up on him and he learned from his mistakes. Steves490 19:44, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
 * It is possible that Revan might of trained a replacement for Malak when he reactivated to Sith Academies on Malachor V and Korriban. This would make sense seeing that Revan and Malak did not see eye to eye on tactics during the Jedi Civil War, the former wanting to strengthen the Republic by skipping heavily fortified worlds and the latter wishing to crush it with all his might. User:Unknown 19:00, 12 June 2008 EST
 * Again this is too much specualting we are getting away from the point. If he had other "Dark Jedi"/"Sith" apprentices or merely other "Jedi" who had been apprentices in the past it doesn't matter as they are all dead before KOTOR (which is the only evidence that he had any other than Malak), the fact that we have established that he did have others should be enough. We will have to wait for more sources to be released before we can acuratley plot anything.  Ryan Fett  ( For Mandalore! )[[Image:JaingHead.svg|20px]] 18:46, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Revelation?
How was Revan indirectly mentioned in the book?--Jedi Kasra (talk) 18:20, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Revan slicing off Malak's jaw
It should be mentioned that he did so, while they were dueling, somewhere in the article, perhaps in the "Jedi Civil War" section. See the "Darth Malak" section for the approrpiate sources.--Jedi Kasra (talk) 19:33, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Erm, ho do you know that?  Jasca Ducato Sith Council 19:42, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Insider 100 and/or the databank. Drewton  [[Image:Era-old.png|20px]] ( Drewton's Holocron ) 21:12, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Hasbro cardback picture


I removed the package elements from a scan of Revan's Hasbro cardback. If it's not considered fanon, could it be used, and if so, for the infobox? It looks live-action. Drewton  ( Drewton's Holocron ) 13:56, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

I like it personally. It's not fanon as its from an official product. I think the main reaction here will be that its too dark though. - –K.A.J•T•C•E• 14:23, 25 June 2008 (UTC) I looked on another site, and the back of the card has a better/brighter version. I can try scanning it. Drewton   ( Drewton's Holocron ) 15:42, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Too dark and the quality isn't good enough for infobox. -- Redemption [[Image:Redemptionusersymbol.png|25px]] (Talk) 15:15, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I like it, alot. Good for the infobox, but a deff for the article whole.  Jasca Ducato Sith Council 15:16, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't say it's good for the infobox, but, if there's space, it might be okay for somewhere else. -- AdmirableAckbar (Talk) 15:18, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Comparing it with in-game shots is like comparing night and day, IMO. The only details that really need to be seen in an infobox are of the head, which you can see clearly and is bright enough. Drewton  [[Image:Era-old.png|20px]] ( Drewton's Holocron ) 15:33, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

That would be a fantastic main image. Can it be done? - –K.A.J•T•C•E• 18:20, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, but I remembered that I have the Canadian packaging, which has the picture in just a small sheet. Even if I tried scanning it, my scanner's not that great. I'll see if I can get anyone else who has the regular packaging to do it. Drewton  [[Image:Era-old.png|20px]] ( Drewton's Holocron ) 19:04, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Just attempted a rescan...utter crap. Unless the artist has a website with hi-res versions, we're stuck with this one. Just don't even try to put into the infobox. -- Redemption [[Image:Redemptionusersymbol.png|25px]] (Talk) 03:42, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Stop trying to be King of Wookieepedia again Redemption.  Jasca Ducato Sith Council 11:33, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Let's try and keep pointless, aggravating comments to the minimum, shall we? I think it's fairly obvious that the image isn't suitable for the infobox, but if you do want it there, please start a vote. -- AdmirableAckbar (Talk) 12:04, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I wasn't planning to put it in the infobox unless it was agreed upon, and even if I was I wouldn't because of the banning warning. If I do a scan/camera picture of thr brighter one and it's still not right, it could be used for the Mandalorian Wars section. Drewton  [[Image:Era-old.png|20px]] ( Drewton's Holocron ) 12:20, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Here's a brighter version taken by one of the administrators of YakFace.com. There's some cardboard lines in it, but it looks fine in the infobox.

Another option is to ask Hasbro for the original picture in their bi-weekly Q&A on one of the collecting forums. Drewton  ( Drewton's Holocron ) 14:20, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Er... the problem with that picture is that it isn't even an accurate representation of Revan's helmet. Compare it with an in-game screenshot or with Image:DarthRevan DarthMalak EGF.jpg. The helmet is too large, it is colored incorrectly, and it is not nearly as detailed as Revan's real mask. If you want to put this somewhere, put it in the Bts section.--172.190.129.205 15:13, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Unlike the toy, it is accurate, except for the silver which is likely because of the lighting. Even if they looked very different, it would still be canon because it's an official picture. Drewton  [[Image:Era-old.png|20px]] ( Drewton's Holocron ) 15:18, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Nonsense. Revan's helmet/mask is a combination of a dull, reddish brown mixed with a dark, slate colored metal. The cheapo plastic mask in that picture looks almost nothing like it. Anyway, who says that the picture is canon? It is just silly. The helmet has a defined appearance and that picture does not match it. As such, why bother putting it in the article? It is ugly.--172.190.129.205 15:41, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Okay...that was a really unnecessary comment, Jasca. I have a suggestion for you too. Stop trying to bait people into an argument. Anyway...ignoring that obviously trolling comment, Yakfaces has nasty scan lines on it anyway. -- Redemption [[Image:Redemptionusersymbol.png|25px]] (Talk) 15:22, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Before asking Hasbro for a high-res original picture I'll start a vote. This isn't a vote for either pictures that have been uploaded, it's for whether even a high-res original picture would be worth asking for or not. Drewton  ( Drewton's Holocron ) 15:28, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
 * This vote is premature. Ask and then we'll see where it goes. If Hasbro denies the request then the vote would have been worthless anyway. A hi-res quality image is also preferable even if it doesn't go in the infobox. -- Redemption [[Image:Redemptionusersymbol.png|25px]] (Talk) 15:30, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Good point about needing a high-res picture anyway, I've removed the vote. In Hasbro's Q&A, though, where I'll be asking them, they'll almost certainly give the picture, escpecially if told that it's for Wookieepedia, unless if they don't have it at the time. Drewton  [[Image:Era-old.png|20px]] ( Drewton's Holocron ) 15:35, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, if we can find a hi-res picture without cardboard lines and whatnot, I'd support its insertion into the infobox. Nice find. :D --Kessel 15:43, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

As would I. If you preiview either image in the infobox they dont look that bad. As for it being inacurate who says Revan didnt have two helmets,or maybe he had removable stickers on it. - –K.A.J•T•C•E• 17:39, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
 * It's a good picture, but rather dark, if it were lightened up, I wouldn't be against its use as an infobox image.RushinSundaws 17:44, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

All Choices Were Light-Sided??
How can it be Cannon that ALL of Revan's choices throughout the whole game are Light-Sided? Even after he discovers his true identity. Then story wise, there's no sense of conflict or character development in Revan. He's just a one-sided person who does good deeds. Without the personal and emotional conflict of characters like Anakin Skywalker or Jacen Solo (when he was becoming Darth Caedus), Revan's a boring character (at least in the game, not counting his back story before the events in KOTOR 1). It's a shame too. This character had a lot of potential. But according to Cannon, Revan's a predictable "do-gooder" (for lack of a better term) as opposed to, for example, Darth Vader and Darth Caedus, just to name a few. (JordanRevin08 16:44, 2 July 2008 (UTC)JordanRevin08)
 * I fail to see why this is a problem. He becomes a Jedi, and he stays to that path, meaning he does good. So? Grand Moff Tranner [[Image:Imperial Department of Military Research.svg|20px]] (Comlink) 16:51, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Even if you do all of the light side acts in the game, Revan says that he almost turned on Lehon before dueling Bastila. I agree with you, however; actually, we don't know for certain whether all of his actions in KOTOR were light-sided. Wookieepedia assumes that he did because he "followed the path the Jedi/lightside".  Drewton  [[Image:Era-old.png|20px]] ( Drewton's Holocron ) 17:07, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
 * So he was already a Jedi before the events in KOTOR 1 took place, and he still became a Sith Lord after the Mandalorian Wars, but at least then his character was interesting and more believable. After being brainwashed by the Council, he's been watered down to an absolutely ONE-sided character, leaving no room for important aspects like emotional and moral conflict - things which make characters like Vader, Caedus, or even Krayt and Cade Skywalker interesting to learn about. The idea of Revan still staying true to the Light Side all the way, even after discovering that he was "reprogrammed" (as Carth states) with a false identity by the Jedi Council, is unbelievable and lacking in character development. (JordanRevin08 17:28, 2 July 2008 (UTC)JordanRevin08)
 * I know it's Cannon that Revan chose the Jedi/Light Side path by the end of the game, but I can't believe that EVERY CHOICE he made in the game was Light Sided. That's like saying "let's just pick one side for a potentially great character, then toss him on the shelf without putting any depth or moral conflict into his character". (JordanRevin08 17:32, 2 July 2008 (UTC)JordanRevin08)
 * So you're saying that Revan may have made some dark side choices throughout the game? I doubt it, considering he was a Republic soldier and then a Jedi. No room for the dark side there. Grand Moff Tranner [[Image:Imperial Department of Military Research.svg|20px]] (Comlink) 17:47, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Don't be so close-minded. That's how you make tedious characters. Anakin Skywalker was a light-sider when he cut down all those Tusken Raiders (women and children included), yet what he did was excellent for inserting moral conflict and regret into his character. Luke Skywalker joined Palpatine in Dark Empire, even after everything he went through with Vader and Palpatine in Episode VI. Jacen Solo started out much like the Cannon Version of KOTOR's Revan: a total lightsider with little to no interesting aspects, character-wise. Then he transitioned into Darth Caedus. So Revan was a Jedi and a Republic soldier, therefore "no room for Dark Side choices." Wrong. You'd have to do better than that if you want to get your point across. What point are you trying to make anyway - justifying why Revan should be an uninteresting character? (JordanRevin08 17:59, 2 July 2008 (UTC)JordanRevin08)
 * And so was Bastila, minus a Republic soldier. Drewton  [[Image:Era-old.png|20px]] ( Drewton's Holocron ) 17:49, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Um, excuse me? I wasn't the one who developed the game; there's no reason to call me close-minded. I'm simply stating my opinion on this matter. Grand Moff Tranner [[Image:Imperial Department of Military Research.svg|20px]] (Comlink) 18:05, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Sorry if I hurt your feelings. I didn't mean you are close-minded. Your statement was close-minded. "Revan was a Republic soldier and then a Jedi. No room for the Dark Side there." He was already part of the Jedi and the Republic military before KOTOR 1 took place, and he convinced a third of both to switch loyalties to him. Seems like there's plenty of room for the Dark Side there. (JordanRevin08 18:11, 2 July 2008 (UTC)JordanRevin08)
 * First, you didn't hurt my feelings. I saw that as rather rude, considering I did nothing to provoke it. The fact is that, following his capture, Revan received a new memory. If he used the light-side option for everything after that, there was no room for the dark side since he had no memory of being a Sith (until Malak tells him, but by that time, you're eight light or dark). Grand Moff Tranner [[Image:Imperial Department of Military Research.svg|20px]] (Comlink) 18:14, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
 * And when he does figure out who he really is and what the Jedi did to him, Revan's still willing to do their bidding and remain the "happy-go-lucky lightsider/Jedi puppet". That's where Revan's character falls to nothing short of unbelievable, with zero psychological and emotional conflict, thus ultimately making a disappointing character. (JordanRevin08 18:31, 2 July 2008 (UTC)JordanRevin08)
 * With the light-side ending as canonical, it's obvious that Revan remains a Jedi throughout the story post-Malak's revelation. Undoubtedly Revan had a major psychological and emotional conflict, but that's not enough to cause him to commit some dark side deeds and still end up with the light-side ending. Grand Moff Tranner [[Image:Imperial Department of Military Research.svg|20px]] (Comlink) 19:14, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, that's why Anakin Skywalker committed a few Dark Side deeds, and many more during his time as Darth Vader, and yet he still ended up with a Light Side ending. Revan canonically chose the Jedi in the end, but that does not prove that every single light side choice in the game is canonical. He could kill Bendak, work with the Genoharadan, and still end up as the hero of the Republic. If it was indeed all light sided, then that just makes for a pretty straightforward story, with no real drama or emotional struggle within the character. (JordanRevin08 19:48, 2 July 2008 (UTC)JordanRevin08)
 * The format we have is fine, I think. There's no reason to completely discount the wealth in storyline that comes if Revan is a little dark (e.g. dueling Bendak Starkiller, confronting the Genoharadan). -BaronGrackle 19:28, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
 * In general, listing all of Revan's actions as purely light side and assuming full completion of the game with most side-quests fulfilled are two key Wookieepedia conventions. They're not meant to imply canonicity&mdash;they are stipulations we make and have made in the past so we can write an article without the speculative "Revan might or mightn't have duelled Bendak Starkiller". In a fully completed article, an extensive segment of his Behind the scenes section would be devoted to discussing his dark side and/or alterate actions. Again, we're not implying that Revan's actions were only light-side&mdash;it's a stylistic assumption until we get a canonical update from LFL. Thanks. Atarumaster88  [[Image:Jedi_Order.svg|20px]] ( Talk page ) 19:52, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Pic of Karath's torture of Revan, Carth, and Bastila
The pic depicts Revan as a white-skinned male. I feel that we should take this pic off the article, since one who has not played the game and reads this article would probably assume that Revan is white, like that whole business with his action figure. It's still unknown whether Revan was white, dark-skinned, or what, so we should take it off Agree? Disagree?.--Jedi Kasra (talk) 18:09, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Same goes for the ingame Star Forge duel screenshot. --  I need a name  ( Complain here ) 18:18, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I assumed it would be alright because it's used in the Force cage article. As for the Star Forge duel image, it was discussed and agreed upon previously. Drewton  [[Image:Era-old.png|20px]] ( Drewton's Holocron ) 18:54, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * There's nothing wrong with the in-game Star Forge duel photo. So Revan is seen wearing his armored robs - that's how he's depicted in Duron Qel-Droma's vision, so said "in-game Star Forge duel picture" should be allowed to remain. (JordanRevin08 20:15, 3 July 2008 (UTC)JordanRevin08)
 * Except he's not. It's specifically stated in Shadows and Light that he's wearing the Qel-Droma robes, which is the hooded cape. --  I need a name  ( Complain here ) 20:30, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * However, the only thing you can see clearly is the hood cape in the picture. There's no Revan mask. Drewton  [[Image:Era-old.png|20px]] ( Drewton's Holocron ) 20:35, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Same Mask, same Gauntlets, do the math and it adds up to the same armor (most likely recreated by the Star Forge). The only difference is he's wearing a different cloak. (JordanRevin08 13:38, 4 July 2008 (UTC)JordanRevin08)
 * No, no, and I would if the first 2 assumptions were actually founded. But the fact that he's wearing a different cloak is enough to warrant removal of the image anyway. --  I need a name  ( Complain here ) 14:56, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
 * It looks nearly exactly the same, just with a dark cloak. Anakin's appearance in The Clone Wars isn't how it's supposed to be but it's canon. Drewton  [[Image:Era-old.png|20px]] ( Drewton's Holocron ) 15:16, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
 * The differences in appearance for Anakin in the Clone Wars is called artistic license. The differences between the cloaks are called them not being the same cloak. --  I need a name  ( Complain here ) 15:31, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
 * The main problem that I see with the Star Forge duel picture does not lie with the color of the cloak. Instead, equipping that particular outfit, with the hood up like that, is not possible without either a mod or a cheat. I'd say that puts that picture firmly in the category of fanart, regardless of its accuracy. Unless it's explained how that can be achieved with an unmodded version of KotOR and without cheating, I think it's best that the Star Forge image be removed from this article until then. Muuuuuurgh 20:39, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Or not. If we go on that decision, then we'll have to remove half the images from the article, including the infobox image; and I for one would be against that whole-heartedly. I suggest it remains there until another miage of the duel can be found.  Jasca Ducato Sith Council 11:44, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
 * What on Earth do the other images have to do with this? And since we're starting to get sidetracked, we're all in agreement that the Karath/Revan/Carth/Bastila torture picture should go, right? --  I need a name  ( Complain here ) 11:49, 5 July 2008 (UTC)