Talk:Anakin Skywalker/Legends


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Anakin's bedroom ceiling
This is a bad picture...but is it worth including this info? There are Darth Maul like sith patterns painted on his ceiling. I've seen better pictures so I can look for it if anyone wants this in. You can see a little bit of it here. Perhaps for the BTS section?--DannyBoy7783 00:03, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Could you point those Maul-like Sith patterns out for us? I didn't see any. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 00:08, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
 * As I said, it's very hard to see in that particular picture but you'll notice along the top of the image (the room's ceiling) that there is an orange/red coloring to the ceiling and there is a pattern in it. It's hard to see there but you'll have to take my word for it that it's like Maul's tats. I'll try and get a better picture at some point if I can. Until then it's not really very useful to upload that picture. --DannyBoy7783 01:37, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I see it...sure it's not just the lighting? .  .  .  .  05:22, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
 * It looks similar to the patterns on the ceiling of the Lars dining room, seen in AotC and ANH - \\Captain Kwenn// &mdash; Ahoy! 21:59, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Oooo, I've got goosebumps! Could this be a hint that young Anakin was being watched over by Palpy all the time?! I love stuff like this!!8)Tocneppil 23:28, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
 * It's hard to see in this image, but it's there.--Valin Kenobi 03:33, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
 * So what do we do with this information? Thoughts/opinions?--72.224.56.188 19:42, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
 * We don't have any actual information. So we don't do anything. &mdash;Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Imperial Emblem.png|20px]] 21:22, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

"...unable to generate or deflect Force lightning..."
Is this really an accurate statement. He could generate Force lightning, but didn't risk it. What's the source for him being unable to deflect it?-- Lord Oblivion Sith holocron 02:43, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
 * He has a metal arm. This isn't good for electricity, methinks. Cutch 03:22, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
 * ROTS Visual Dictionary. .  .  .  .  03:27, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I know, but I think he could try to generate lightning, but it would severely his suit's systems. The article implies this as well.-- Lord Oblivion Sith holocron[[Image:Oldsith.png|30px]] 03:34, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Fresh from the VD: As a result of having artificial arms, Darth Vader will never be able to conjure Sith lightning – nor be invulnerable to it. .  .  .  .  03:38, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Can we assume "will never be able" means he isn't able to do it without killing himself?-- Lord Oblivion Sith holocron[[Image:Oldsith.png|30px]] 03:43, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
 * "Never be able" doesn't leave much to the imagination. He can't do it. He couldn't try. .  .  .  .  03:59, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
 * From this artice: "This was due to his cybernetic implants, and any attempt by Vader to generate it would electrocute his life-support system, causing it to short-circuit and kill him." Is this just speculation?-- Lord Oblivion Sith holocron[[Image:Oldsith.png|30px]] 04:11, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Possibly, because the VD says that he could not conjure it. .  .  .  .  04:16, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Cutch 04:18, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, that was exceptionally constructive. .  .  .  .  04:20, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I just love the way things are repeated around here several dozen times. Cutch 04:20, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Neccesity is the mother of intention. Some people just don't get it on first try. .  .  .  .  04:22, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
 * What the Hell! I'm saying he was able to generate it at the risk of damaging his cybernetics. Your saying he couldn't even do that.-- Lord Oblivion Sith holocron[[Image:Oldsith.png|30px]] 04:25, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, that's what I'm saying. It's what James Luceno is saying too. .  .  .  .  04:30, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
 * The Hell with this! Either I'm not understanding you, or you're not understanding me. And I will not be patronized.-- Lord Oblivion Sith holocron[[Image:Oldsith.png|30px]] 04:41, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Erm...OK. *furrows eyebrow*. What I am saying is that he could not conjure it. Period. What you are saying is that he could, but he would do some serious damage to himself. Aren't you? .  .  .  .  08:49, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
 * And since somebody's probably going to mention it, the 'ball of energy' Vader throws at Luke in the pages of Splinter of the Mind's Eye was something along the lines of a 'kinetite' -a manifestation of kinetic energy. This was mentioned in one of the letters pages of Star Wars Insider (alas I do not know which issue).Tocneppil 09:12, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
 * To be fair, most people are quite content shortening "never be able to do X without dying" or even "never be able to do X without grave consequences" to just "never be able to do X." Doctors told someone I know with diabetes that he'd never be able to drink again - but was still perfectly *capable* of drinking, which is why he's now losing appendages and likely to die soon.  jSarek 09:19, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
 * ...thanks for sharing that tidbit with us jSarek. Sobering. I always thought that in Splinter of the Minds Eye, the comic artists were way off. Dean Foster's description of that power was more akin to that "Force Destruction" thing that Jerec pulls on Rahn. That's what I thought Jedi Knight was trying to do - Vader's power in SOTME. But...no. .  .  .  .  09:53, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
 * In any case, we have to go with what canon says. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 12:02, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

I am just think if he is a metal man, it couldn't even generate force power, the book saids so~ --Master Chief Petty Officer 14:13, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

destruction orb
in the destruction orb article it states that vader could use this ability. Does anyone think this should be mentioned in the talents section of this article. 69.23.65.113 02:19, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Needs to be sourced first. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 20:18, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Splinter of the Mind's Eye. In the book, it's a destruction orb, but for some reason, those brain-boxes at Dark Horse made it lightning. .  .  .  .  07:16, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Stuff that bothers me
About the infobox, that is. I think there should either be a picture of Vader, or of Shaw Anakin. The infobox picture is supposed to show the most recent appearance of the person in question, and the only way we could get away with Christiansen Anakin is if Force Ghosts count.... Also, I'm calling his Jedi infobox into question. Does returning to the light side for five seconds 'really constitute having rejoined the Jedi order? Rodtheanimegod4ever 07:12, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes. And images do not have to be the most recent appearance. They should be the "in their prime" appearance. .  .  .  .  07:15, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Besides, where does it say it should be the "most recent" image? Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 14:48, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
 * If I could add something that bothers me- the Vader's lightsabre thing. The claim that Vader's "first lightsabre" (IMO, his only one, but we'll get to that) was too small for his prosthetic hands is not in line with the facts as related in Dark Lord- Vader was well aware of his larger hands before he started construction, and he designed the weapon accordingly. We also know that the prop-guys for RotS designed Vader's lightsabre in RotS to be a combination of the features of the versions of it we saw in ANH, TESB, and RotJ- i.e. his "true" lightsabre. The only reason the lightsabres in ANH etc are different is because they lost the props. It seems to be going overboard to attribute them as all being different- if we went by that reasoning, Luke's lightsabre isn't really Anakins. And the less said about the farce of "Splinter of the Mind's Eye", the better ...Vymer 10:56, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Problem is, Vader's lightsaber props were all different, meaning he had different lightsabers. And Splinter of the Mind's Eye is canon. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 23:00, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
 * As I just said, so were Luke's lightsabre props. Are we to believe then that he had multiple lightsbares- ie. he really wasn't given Anakin's lightsabre by Obi-Wan, just a sort-of copy, and the same for TESB, etc? There comes a point where you've got to draw the line. And Splinter of the Mind's Eye is total rubbish. I don't care how many people tell me that Luke fought Vader before TESB. :) (j/k) Vymer 02:40, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah...that whole Vader having different sabres thing is junk, I'll give you that. It was the same one, the whole way through, unless you give me a source that says that he made new ones. Otherwise, the Executor is actually a different ship for one shot of TESB...the SE shot. .  .  .  .  03:02, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Vader's lightsaber props were different enough to be considered in-universe that they were different lightsabers. Anakin's Episode III lightsaber and Luke's Episode IV and V lightsabers doesn't seem to have that much of a difference to them. And you can think whatever you want about Splinter of the Mind's Eye, but it's canon. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 12:15, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Actually I'd say an argument could be made that it implicitly contradicts TESB by its very existence and at least the duel at the end should be tossed aside for the nonsense it is on that basis alone, but that's neither here nor there. As for Vader's lightsabre props being different enough to considered in-universe different, source? As far as I can see, the same reasoning that assumes Vader had multiple lightsabres merely because of a question of props applies to Luke/Anakin's sabre, I don't know of any source that claims he actually had multiple sabres. As for Luke's lightsabres- the differences between all of them are quite extensive. http://www.partsofsw.com/skysab.htm, http://www.partsofsw.com/esbsksab.htm. And of course, the difference between Anakin's Ep 3 lightsabre and the OT version are extremely obvious- no D-ring at the bottom, and the "socket" connector that attaches to their belts is present - as it is on most PT sabres - to name just two. (just like Vader's Ep 3 sabre, I might add).Vymer 14:03, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Anyway, pending a source for this "multiple lightsabres" claim, I'll point out the passage from Dark Lord that proves that Vader's Episode 3 prop (being an amalgam of all the props that came before it- and hence his "true" lightsabre IMO) was already designed with his prosthetic hands in mind: His new hands were too large to duplicate the loose grip Anakin had favored, right hand wrapped not on the grip but around the crystal-housing cylinder, close to the blade itself. Vader's hands required that the grip be thicker and longer, and the result was an inelegant weapon, verging on the ungainly. In other words- this seems like a fanon rationalization to solve an unecessary problem (ie. assuming every prop must be a new sabre), and contradicts Dark Lord to boot. I'd also say that on the face of it the notion that any force user would design a lightsabre yet not take care to make sure it fit his hands, no matter how new those hands were, rather silly.Vymer 14:11, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
 * First of all, stop saying Splinter of the Mind's Eye shouldn't be canon. It is, and you can't change that. Second: Do us a favor and prove all of Vader's lightsaber props are meant to be the same one. Third: Luke could have modified his lightsaber between ANH and TESB. As for the RotS version, Obi-Wan could have also modified it a bit in that 19 year period. In fact, perhaps Vader just modified his lightsaber over those years. But first, please give a source that proves they were meant to be one in the same. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 21:34, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
 * And if there isn't a source saying they were meant to be the same, perhaps we could try using my "modified over time" theory. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 23:13, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
 * At the very least, the duel at the end of Splinter of the Mind's Eye isn't canon. Luke didn't duel Vader and win before TESB- period. That's absurd, and it'll remain absurd. As for asking for a source that they're meant to be the same- sorry, that burden does not lie on me, the burden lies on those asserting they're all different. There's no more reason to assume they're all different sabres than all of Anakin's/ Luke's sabres between RotS and TESB. As for evidence that they're all meant to be the same- take a look at the Master Replicas website. Of all of the lightsabers seen in the Star Wars saga, Darth Vader's has undergone the most changes. Each time the prop has appeared in previous filmed episodes it has differed in detail with many versions, both hero and stunts being made. In Star Wars: Episode III Revenge of the Sith, the prop department has taken previous versions of Vader's iconic weapon of ultimate evil and amalgamated them seamlessly into one. From the Master Replicas site. Now, I've proven that the sabre was designed with his new hands in mind, at the very least. I've demonstrated why the reasoning that they're all different sabres is flawed.Vymer 23:37, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Vymer, all of Splinter of the Mind's Eye is canon. Stop disputing it. And telling me it's my job to prove that they were all different is telling me you don't have a source for what you're saying. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 23:41, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Luke didn't fight Vader before TESB- never mind win- the concept is so obviously contrary to the highest canon, never mind patently ridiculous, as to be laughable. Anyway- as I said, you don't have a source for claiming these are all different sabres, the article is wrong on the claim that his first sabre was too small, and, again, claiming the sabres are different is no different than applying the same reasoning to Luke's sabres. It's just that simple.Vymer 10:58, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Vymer, i've been reading this conversation, and your kind of getting on my nerves now! Splinter of the Mind's Eye is 100%, Lucas endorsed canon, and you 'cannot change that. And if you cant provide a source for your information, contrary to the article then your the one who will lose, becase either Nebulax or myself will just revert your removal of the information. [[Image:DarthAbeonisSig2.gif|Jasca Ducato]] Sith Council Sith Campaign 11:18, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Simply because something is canon does not make it incontrevertible. It is EU, and as such, must answer to the films, and the films say the duel at the end never happened. I must've missed the conversation in TESB where Luke talked about how he's fought Vader before and beat him, therefore he'll beat him this time too. I can't believe this is even a serious matter of discussion that I'm "getting on your nerves" for pointing out how utterly ridiculous it is that a barely-trained boy who hasn't even been to see Yoda yet (when he still got beaten!) was able to beat the Dark Lord of the Sith! Has the world gone mad?Vymer 11:27, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
 * As to the question of lightsabres:
 * 1. The paragraph, as it stands now, is wrong. I've provided the quote from Dark Lord. The issue of his first lightsabre is not a subject for debate. It was not "too small for his new prosthetic hands". That's a canon fact.
 * 2. No one has yet justified to me why Vader's different props must each mean a different sabre yet the same reasoning doesn't apply to Anakin's sabre that Luke was given by Obi-Wan. From Episode III to Episode V, it is noticeably different in every version, significantly. Either you apply the reasoning to both or you apply it to none. I'm calling for some intellectual consistency here, nothing more.Vymer 11:31, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, the world has gone mad! Skywalker battle Vader on Mimban! Period. Splinter is canon no matter how absurd it sounds, stop argueing against the point. [[Image:DarthAbeonisSig2.gif|Jasca Ducato]] Sith Council Sith Campaign 11:46, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Vymer, I'm not debating the "too small for his prosthetic hands". I never did. And until you provide a source that Vader's lightsabers were meant to be the same, it's not getting changed. And stop argueing over Splinter of the Mind's Eye, for God's sake. It's canon, and that will never change, no matter how much you don't like it. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 12:14, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm not saying it's not canon. I'm saying it's contradicted. There's a difference. I find it amusing that no one is willing to actually argue the evidence on that fact head on- simply repeat "it's canon" like a mantra that can somehow magic away the fact that it's BS. In any event- as for Vader's lightsabres- you haven't justified just why you think it's appropriate to say that Vader's lightsabres are all different, yet Luke's lightsabres are not. The reasoning, sparse as it is, is exactly the same- the props are different, therefore they're not actually the same. So, again, justify just why you think it's valid for one and not the other.Vymer 12:17, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Vymer, until you provide a source saying they were all the same, they weren't, because they are so different. Yes, Luke's lightsaber was different in some of the films, but those are minor differences compared to Vader's. And Splinter of the Mind's Eye is not contradicted is TESB. So stop talking about it here. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 12:21, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
 * First of all, because they are so different: the Ep 3, Ep 4, and Ep 5 versions of the prop are all actually quite similar, visually speaking- the differences between them are no more significantly discernible than the differences between the Episode 3 Anakin sabre, the Episode 4, and Episode 5 versions thereof. The only one that is more obviously different is the Episode VI sabre. Second minor differences compared to Vader's- I beg to differ. The most significant difference between the Ep 3 and Ep 4 versions of Luke's sabre and Ep 3 and Ep 4 versions of Vader's sabre are practically identical- the D-ring versus the "socket" (on the side of the weapon) for attachment to the belt, as well as a completely different activation button "face". And I've said why SOTME is contradicted- your simply saying it isn't is not a valid argument.Vymer 12:28, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
 * This isn't the place to argue over SotME, Vymer, so drop it. It's canon, whether or not you think it's been contradicted. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 12:32, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
 * And provide a source for Vader's lightsabers being the same. Your analysis isn't good enough. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 12:32, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Provide a source for Vader's lightsabres being all different. The only possible case is for the Episode VI version- the differences between the rest are as "minor" as you claim for those of Luke's lightsabres. And on what grounds do you decide my analysis isn't good enough? I certainly haven't seen you specify the differences in any detail whatsoever. I, on the other hand, have.Vymer 12:37, 10 January 2007 (UTC)


 * My analysis, in full

-Episode IV versus Episode V sabre of Luke Skywalker:

- second red button.

- Six black rubber hand grips, instead of seven

- HP-44 bus type computer card edge connector acting as the "face" for the activation switch, instead of the Light Emitting Diode display bubble type lens -from a vintage calculator (makes for an entirely different button)

- the D-ring is a different design (minor)

-Episode III sabre versus the other two:

- no D-ring whatsoever, a side "socket" connector, like all PT hero sabres. - different face for the activation switch - different activation switch - different color button - no second button as on TESB version

-Episode IV vader sabre versus Episode V vader sabre:

- differences described as "minor" on partsofsw.com, and indeed, visually, they're not that different. Part of the reason is because in ANH, Vader actually -had two different props. One of them is the same design as the one from TESB, the other isn't. Therefore, the "TESB" sabre is actually largely -identical to one of the props used in ANH ("ANH 2" sabre), and little different from the other (which we'll call the "ANH" sabre).

- the primary difference between what is considered the "ANH" sabre and the "TESB" sabre is longer rubber grips. It also has only six, whereas the "ANH" -model had seven.

-Hey- just like the Episode IV and Episode V version of Luke's sabre!

-Episode VI Vader sabre:

- differs more visibly from the others. This is because it's actually a modified Anakin/Luke TESB sabre, ie. it's designed from a Graflex 3-cell flashgun, -not the MPP design used for Vader's sabres in ANH/TESB.

-Episode III Vader sabre: an amalgam of all the sabres (mostly the ANH and TESB ones)- it has seven black rubber grips, like the ANH sabre, but they're longer, like the TESB -sabre. Also has PT features- a different activation face and switch, and a side-socket in place of the D-ring connector.Vymer 12:54, 10 January 2007 (UTC) Vader and Luke's duel on Mimban doesn't bother me at all, in fact it almost seems to have a direct reference in ESB: "If you choose to face Vader you must do so alone. I cannot interfere" - Obi-Wan Kenobi, it wasn't "Luke vs Vader", it was Obi-Wan vs Vader - and thus Vader was caught off guard. - His lightsaber isn't destroyed, his arm is chopped off and then he retrieves his saber.(128.243.220.21 14:12, 12 January 2007 (UTC))
 * Vymer, the fact is that the evidence points towards them all being different lightsabers. Thus far, you have not provided a source saying they were meant to be the same. Until you do, this discussion won't produce anything valuable to the article. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 20:41, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Indeed. Vader could just have modified his weapon over time. And we know he's inclined to do so, because he starts modifying his armour as early as Dark Lord. Also, there's a precedent for characters modifying their lightsabers - such as Yoda, who altered his between AotC and RotS, effectively explaining the discrepancies in appearance between films - \\Captain Kwenn// &mdash; Ahoy! 20:47, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
 * So, we have three posibilities here. The first is that they are all the same; the second that they are all different; and the third is that they are one but were modified. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 20:49, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Well it can't simply be the first one, because there are differences between films. However, if no source has stated Vader used more than one lightsaber, then we have to assume he modified it over time, as did Obi-Wan his - \\Captain Kwenn// &mdash; Ahoy! 20:51, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Exactly. Option three is more of a "if one and two aren't sourced" thing. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 20:55, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Then i guess the consensus is that he modified his weapon overtime. [[Image:DarthAbeonisSig2.gif|Jasca Ducato]] Sith Council Sith Campaign 21:11, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 21:13, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't recall Vader's lightsabre being destroyed in his nonsensical duel on Minban? He got his armed chopped off, that's it, as far as I can recall. (and this is part of the reason why I brought up the fact that this duel is a load of BS that never really happened as far as the films is concerned ...)Vymer 04:27, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
 * It's C-canon. And if anyone could check the book to find any references, that'd be great; however, since I think the lightsaber falls into the pit with him, it's probably safe to assume he recovered it - \\Captain Kwenn// &mdash; Ahoy! 08:32, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
 * While we're at it, what's this "guided by Obi-Wan Kenobi" stuff? I don't remember that in Splinter either.Vymer 10:04, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't have SotME, but someone told me Vader's lightsaber was destroyed... I guess not. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 12:07, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
 * The "guided by Kenobi stuff" is, I believe, alluded to in the book, and expanded upon in articles and suchlike. But again, it's all canon - \\Captain Kwenn// &mdash; Ahoy! 13:05, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
 * So what exactly happens to Vader's lightsaber? Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 21:48, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
 * As I recall, he picked up his lightsabre from his severed arm and kept on fighting. If he fell down the shaft, then his sabre simply went with him. Damned if I can find my copy of the book, however. I don't remember anything about "guided by Kenobi" or some such. Has anyone got the infernal book? (don't get me wrong, it's not poorly written, but it was written in 1978 before there even was an EU, and it shows).Vymer 11:39, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Again, stop arguing it. This isn't the place to do so. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 12:15, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Actually that's another reason I scoff at it as nonsense- Obi-Wan saying such a thing tells me he wouldn't have interefered at any previous time whatsoever either- nevermind the curious notion that Obi-Wan would simply let both Luke and Leia fight their father without any serious comment- you know, stuff like Yoda and Obi-Wan entreating him not to go! The straight dope is this: it's an anomalous book written before TESB, and as such, makes absolute manure out of massive plot points of the subsequent films. As for this being the place to argue it or not- the story has a direct relation to the topic. And the source stinks to high heaven. Anyway- re: Vader's lightsabre. I've got an idea. Whose got the NEGWT? Does it not have an entry for his lightsabre?Vymer 15:30, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I own NEGW&T, and the only things it says about his lightsaber are: "Darth Vader constructed traditional versions [note the plural] of the lighsaber [...] Darth Vader's dual-phase lightsaber featured controls to adjust the length and width of his blade. Vader also mastered a deadly lightsaber throw, hurling the energy blade at his enemies and then using the Force to recall the weapon." Hope that helps. - S olus  (Bird of Pre  y)  16:03, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Vymer, stop talking about Splinter of the Mind's Eye! Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 20:12, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I was responding to someone else. And it relates directly to the topic at hand (ie. Anakin Skywalker/ Darth Vader) so I don't see why it should be out of bounds. What it says or doesn't say, and whether this contradicts higher canon, is a legitimate topic of discussion in any topic where it's a source. And whether it's canon or not is immaterial to the resolution of those issues.Vymer 05:40, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't care if you were responding to someone. We're not a forum where people discuss why they think something shouldn't be canon. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 14:03, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
 * There are all sorts of excerpts in articles discussing the canonicity and contradictions in multiple sources on Wookiepedia. The size of the Grand Army comes immediately to mind. Simply because something is canon doesn't make it true, not if it contradicts higher canon. It's a valid topic for discussion.Vymer 08:44, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
 * 1) That's your opinion. 2) This isn't the place. 3) Knock it off. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 14:43, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Actually, I'm in agreement with Vymer on this. Jack: You do the same thing sometimes, so don't tell him to knock it off. And it's not his opinion. It's true, and this is the place for discussion about the article. When you click on the thing labeled "discussion", don't you expect to find discussion on points in the article? However, this particular section isn't the place for it. The reason why he is bringing up Splinter of the Mind's Eye so much is because Vader loses his lightsaber, which is part of the discussion AND contradicting other material where he has a similar if not the same lightsaber. \/  ladius  |\/|agnum [[Image:dasymbol.gif|20px]] 17:18, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
 * This is not the place for it. Talk:Splinter of the Mind's Eye is the place for it, or, even better yet, a forum on some other website. And, so far, no one has actually given any proof that Vader never recovered his lightsaber on Mimban, meaning there is no contradiction. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 18:49, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Cin Draillg
Maybe it is just me, but does anyone else ponder how Darth vader killed Cin. I mean he is all powerful. But Cin was suppose to be on the level of yoda and Mace or close to it. It was said that he surpass all, but the two. So could Vader win? Cin was either as strong or stronger the Obi, but some how lost to a lesser experince Knight. Gorege even said the main reason why Vader won was because of experince. SO how did he win is the question. I think personaly that Lucas wanted Vader to seem stringer then he really was and that Cin was a stepping stone Vader could not even beat Obi. So how coul he defeat Cin
 * First af all, could you please work on your grammer. Secondly, Vader was emersed in hatred for the Jedi/himself at the time and was determined to make people suffer for it. PLus the fact that Vader/Skywalker has just spent the last three years fighting a war across the entire galaxy, he has gained alot of experience. For all we know, Cin Drallig spent the entire war inside the Temple on Coruscant. But either way, Vader won. [[Image:DarthAbeonisSig2.gif|Jasca Ducato]] Sith Council Sith Campaign 08:55, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Grammar. .  .  .  .  09:03, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, here's an answer to the original question of "how Darth vader killed Cin": with a lightsaber. ;) Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 14:46, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
 * No, it's "er". [[Image:DarthAbeonisSig2.gif|Jasca Ducato]] Sith Council Sith Campaign 17:47, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
 * You sure? Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 19:30, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Dictionaries are your friends. Also, this debate has been posted on Talk:Cin Drallig - \\Captain Kwenn// &mdash; Ahoy! 19:32, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I knew it was "ar". Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 19:35, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Sorry, my Microsoft Word didn't register the word as incorrect for some reason :-s. [[Image:DarthAbeonisSig2.gif|Jasca Ducato]] Sith Council Sith Campaign 19:48, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Don't worry; mine doesn't either. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 23:58, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Anakin killed Cin. There's no reason complaining about it. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Imperial Emblem.png|20px]] 23:28, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Nebulax. Cin Drallig lost against Anakin. It's a fact, as seen on Episode III. Now, there can be multiple reasons for that: There is a LOT of valid reasons to have Anakin win against Cin Drallig, while losing against Obi Wan. Perhaps in a "Dojo-like" training duel, Cin would have won. But this was a dirty fight, within a battlefield, so this was not a training duel. Note that no one saw the whole fight in Episode III, so we can only assume the fight against Cin Drallig must have been very tough. But in the end Anakin won. I can be wrong, unless one have more arguments than "(Cin > Obi) and (Obi > Ani) => Cin > Ani", then there is not point in discussing this fact anymore. Paercebal 10:40, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Anakin was the Chosen one (prophecy = Deus Ex Maquina)
 * Anakin was really powerful, and his power could compensate experience
 * Anakin fought in the Clone Wars, and apparently, his feats were such he was considered a hero. He even had duels against multiple Dark Jedi if we are to believe the Expanded Universe. Obi Wan Kenobi was master of a Lightsabre Form that increased his protection (which enabled him to fight and win against the four lightsabres of Grievous, when other masters lost the same fight). While Cin Dralling was a weapon master, we do not know about his experience in true, "dirty" combat.
 * Perhaps Obi Wan's acute mastery of Form III against Anakin's use of Form V was, perhaps, more helpful than Cin Drallig's more general mastery of all forms.
 * Anakin was "winning" as his troops were invading the temple, and Cin was loosing, as padawans and younglings were dying around him. This could boost Anakin's morale and anihilate Cin's. And, when two masters fight one against the other, the mental and the moral becomes very important as their overall abilities match.
 * Anakin was exhausted by the fights (the Jedi Temple + Mustaphar), perhaps more than Obi Wan who had time to rest after fleeing Utapau.
 * Anakin had no choice, but prove himself to Palpatine, and give himself to the Dark Side, and thus, would not consider the fight in the Temple won from the beginning. To the contrary, in his fight against Obi Wan, he was arrogant, as he had been before in hits fight against against Dooku on Geonosis. This arrogance made him try dangerous moves and lose some body mass (as he did against Dooku).

highest midichlorian??what a ....!!!!
From what I know Yoda stated that he had the most potential than any that he(Yoda) saw!But what about Revan,it is known that he also was the strongest user of the force,and actually Traya called him ,,The Heart of the Force,,!And Jedi Masters sad that his potential was unlimited! ???anon has been to SuperIdiot's website???What???
 * We don't know Revan's midi-chlorian count. Obi-Wan states, as a fact, that Anakin's is off the chart at over 20,000, and is thus higher than Yoda's. Since we don't have a figure for Revan, we have to assume that Anakin has the highest count - \\Captain Kwenn// &mdash; Ahoy! 14:32, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Which is exactly why I removed the Revan comment from the article. Green Tentacle (Talk) 14:33, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Sounds like the anon has been to SuperIdiot's website. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Imperial Emblem.png|20px]] 20:35, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
 * You're an anon, and SuperShadow is a bunch of fanon. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Imperial Emblem.png|20px]] 22:14, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
 * He's not been using SS's website. If he had been, he'd know Revan only had a midi-chlorian count of 10,800. Tsch, honestly... lol. SillyShadow references aside, one assumes that Revan's count was within the standard Jedi chart, since if it went higher... well, in four thousand years you'd have thought that the chart would have been changed to accomodate this. Of course, that's assuming that midi-chlorians had even been discovered in the KotOR era, which when last I checked was far from certain.


 * I think the safe money is on Revan having a lower count than Anakin, of course, who knows, maybe Revan was a flow walking Jacen Solo... ;-)(Ulicus 14:39, 21 January 2007 (UTC))


 * That last line gave me a bad feeling... What if Jacen flow-walks back to the KotOR age and becomes Revan? ;) Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Imperial Emblem.png|20px]] 14:50, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Oooh, conjecture. Then again that would clear up so many arguments about Revan... no more complaints from female Revans. - Solus (Bird of Prey)  18:06, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, I said that only because so many people are saying Darth Krayt is Jacen. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Imperial Emblem.png|20px]] 19:24, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I know it, but it was a funny idea. ;) - Solus (Bird of Prey)  20:52, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Hopefully no one at LucasFilm got any ideas based off that... Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Imperial Emblem.png|20px]] 22:37, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Comparing Anakin's power with Revan's is like comparing Palpatine with Dooku. Anakin was the Chosen One, and according to Lucas himself, had twice the potential of Sidious, the (per New Essential Chronology) most powerful Sith Lord of all time. Admittedly, Revan is quite powerful (you'd have to be to stop three threats to the Galaxy in one lifetime!), but he ain't no Chosen One. Lord Patrick 03:27, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Not even close. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Imperial Emblem.png|20px]] 12:29, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

some things
1. Should the Main Image be changed to one of Sabastyn(sp) Shaw in ROTJ seeing as it is most recent?

2. Should Wookieequote and Galleries for Anakin and Vader be merged? Valin &quot;Tnu&quot; &quot;Shido&quot; Suul 11:04, 20 January 2007 (UTC)


 * what do you mean more "recent"? didn't lucas erase him from canon?
 * 1. No. We use the best and most appropriate image in the infobox, not the most recent. And, as said above, Shaw is no longer canon. I agree with your second point, however, since they should reflect the nature of the merged article - \\Captain Kwenn// &mdash; Ahoy! 11:40, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree with Kwenn. Where is the interest in putting as Main Image some non-canon, bad quality photo where there is TWO characters and not one, when we have a large good quality one where only Anakin is shown, his face plainly visible, and lightsabre in hand? The change was not a GOOD thing, as far as I was concerned, and I was happy it was reversed. Keep the main photo as it is. As for merging the galleries, I agree with the merging. Paercebal 11:47, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
 * The galleries have been merged - \\Captain Kwenn// &mdash; Ahoy! 12:40, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Actualy Shaw is still Canon just not as a ghost. when Luke Takes off the Helmet remember? Valin &quot;Tnu&quot; &quot;Shido&quot; Suul 14:41, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Good now all that'sneeded is the Wookieequote articals. and i have a comment about useing Bad Quality Images as the Main Image because they are most recent but i'll get banned for it Valin &quot;Tnu&quot; &quot;Shido&quot; Suul 14:45, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
 * We don't have a policy on using the most recent image. And the Shaw image is horrible as a main image. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Imperial Emblem.png|20px]] 14:48, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Like I said i have a comment i could make about Horrible Main Images but Jaymech said he'd ban me for life if i said anything about it again Valin &quot;Tnu&quot; &quot;Shido&quot; Suul 15:03, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Where did he say that? Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Imperial Emblem.png|20px]] 15:06, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
 * IRC i'ma llso banned from IRC for mentioning it in there Valin &quot;Tnu&quot; &quot;Shido&quot; Suul 15:12, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I'd like to hear from Jaymach on the matter. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Imperial Emblem.png|20px]] 15:14, 20 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Knock y oursellf o ut dude. and while your at it could you ask him to let6 me back in to IRC? Valin &quot;Tnu&quot; &quot;Shido&quot; Suul 15:27, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

These are very real criteria, not a matter of taste. I'm interested, too, in knowing more about your comment about bad quality images... Paercebal 19:39, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I did write, and still believe the image is inadequate, and of bad quality, and NOT because of the presence of Shaw. It's because:
 * it is dark
 * it has low contrast
 * it shows TWO characters, the larger one seen from his back (Luke), and the smaller one being Anakin
 * it show Shaw BEFORE G. Lucas decided his face was not horrible enough (remember that Lucas removed Shaw's eyebrows and added scars as continuity with Episode III)
 * it is very small in the page, while the "young anakin" image's, thanks to its height, seems very very much larger.

force ghost
when a force user becomes a ghost do they chose what age they look like or somthing? because when Anakin died he was around 45 years of age and when he became a ghost he looked the same as he did in RotS. also when luke became a ghost he looked the same as he did in RotJ, but when obi-wan and yoda became a ghost they still looked old.
 * The reason Anakin looks younger is because that was the last time he was truely "on the lightside". After he was seduced, Anakin SKywalker ceased to exist. So when he was finally redeemed, his Force ghost was a representation of him when he was in the fullness of the lightside. [[Image:DarthAbeonisSig2.gif|Jasca Ducato]] Sith Council Sith Campaign 18:19, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Possibly, although Luke's appearance seems to imply there's more to it than that. I like to think of it as something similar to the "residual self-image" idea from The Matrix; basically, it's how you see yourself, projected into a context where your appearance can be changed (the Force in this case; the digital world of the Matrix). Some, such as Anakin and Luke, may feel more comfortable with a younger appearance (especially in Anakin's case) whereas Obi-Wan and Yoda accept their appearances at time of death. That's only my interpretation, though it is known at least that a Force ghost does not have to reflect the person's last or "current" appearance - \\Captain Kwenn// &mdash; Ahoy! 18:31, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Or it could have something to do with how their were best known visually to living beings. I call it "fame beyond death". ;) &mdash;Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Imperial Emblem.png|20px]] 20:20, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Recent archiving.
Anyone else having a problem with it? Every time I click on one of them, nothing happens. &mdash;Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) 12:21, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Never mind, it's fixed. &mdash;Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Imperial Emblem.png|20px]] 12:22, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Quote
I'm not too happy with the current quote, to be honest. It's a little bit vague and short, really. Personally, I prefer this one: ''You were the chosen one! It was said you would bring balance to the force, blah blah blah''. That one sums up what he did a bit more. (If there was a vote previously on this quote or something, then sorry, but I can't be bothered to look through masses of archived talk). Unit 8311 15:52, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree. The Obi-Wan quote really sums up Anakin (as well as Vader) better. &mdash;Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Imperial Emblem.png|20px]] 16:01, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Jack. Anyone else agree? Unit 8311 16:04, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Sounds good. Especially since we don't currently have that quote in the article - \\Captain Kwenn// &mdash; Ahoy! 16:05, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
 * You mean the quote Unit 8311 suggested? I thought we did have it in the article. &mdash;Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Imperial Emblem.png|20px]] 16:06, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
 * No, only the "You were my brother..." part - \\Captain Kwenn// &mdash; Ahoy! 16:12, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I see that now. ;) &mdash;Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Imperial Emblem.png|20px]] 16:15, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Vader
Vader is kind of sad. Listen to this he killed milloins, fought Obi, just for the one he loved to die that is so stupid.
 * Please keep all opinions off of talk pages. &mdash;Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Imperial Emblem.png|20px]] 00:16, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Nazi
If you think about Vader is a nazi. He killed a large group of people and for what? The girl he loved, died he wastined his time. He even has blond hair and blue eyes. He is hitlers prize stundent. The eprop is hitler.
 * "He even has blond hair and blue eyes". So do I. Am I a Nazi? I don't think this kind of comparison is really suitable. Yes, there are parallels, but Vader himself isn't a Nazi, and Palpatine isn't Hitler - \\Captain Kwenn// &mdash; Ahoy! 22:47, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Unless Lucas specifically says he modeled Vader off of Nazis, he wasn't. &mdash;Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Imperial Emblem.png|20px]] 00:22, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Lucas doesn't say alot about modeling characters after another characters that we seem to notice and put in BTS sections anyway. While being blonde/blue eyes is a stretch, I can see the Nazi connection. After all, the entire Empire was based off the Nazis...-- Redemption [[Image:Redemptionusersymbol.png|20px]] Talk 02:38, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Still, not enough to put that in the article. &mdash;Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Imperial Emblem.png|20px]] 02:40, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm not saying to put it in. I'm saying that denying there is a Nazi connection just because the "great lord" hasn't said so is pure ignorance. -- Redemption [[Image:Redemptionusersymbol.png|20px]] Talk 02:41, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't see any reason why we shouldn't deny it. &mdash;Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Imperial Emblem.png|20px]] 02:42, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Because it would be ignorant. We have tons of places where we notice a reference yet the creator did not say otherwise. Lucas not saying it doesn't make it any different. -- Redemption [[Image:Redemptionusersymbol.png|20px]] Talk 02:46, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
 * And I'm sure it doesn't have anything to do with Lucas just thinking that they were good actors. &mdash;Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Imperial Emblem.png|20px]] 02:50, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
 * That just went completely over my head. What do the actors have to do with anything? -- Redemption [[Image:Redemptionusersymbol.png|20px]] Talk 02:52, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
 * The actors were the ones who supplied Anakin's blond hair and blue eyes. &mdash;Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Imperial Emblem.png|20px]] 02:53, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Oh. Like I said, the blond hair and blue eyes is a stretch. I'm saying personality wise. -- Redemption [[Image:Redemptionusersymbol.png|20px]] Talk 02:56, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Oh, I understand now. &mdash;Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Imperial Emblem.png|20px]] 02:58, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
 * But then, that's just based on a wholesale view of Nazi's provided by Hollywood. .  .  .  .  22:50, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I've honestly only seen two movies that had Nazis in it. Raiders of the Lost Ark and Last Crusade. Any other facts I know about the Nazi regime is all from sitting in a classroom. Hollywood has nothing to do with the connection. -- Redemption [[Image:Redemptionusersymbol.png|20px]] Talk 22:53, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
 * It's a sterotype, that's all. I'm not saying don't put it in there, I'm just saying it's unfair to tar all Nazis with the same brush. .  .  .  .  23:28, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Great. We have to be PC to Nazis...whats next? The Ku Klux Klan? -- Redemption [[Image:Redemptionusersymbol.png|20px]] Talk 01:18, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Let's face it&mdash;basically all Nazis were the same. &mdash;Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Imperial Emblem.png|20px]] 01:20, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Uh, I do want to seem pro-Nazi or anything (I'm 100% against it) but Hitler was a brunette. Just my two cents. - Solus (Bird of Prey)  01:39, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Let's face it&mdash;basically all Nazis were the same. Oh, yeah, ignorance is bliss, aint it Jack? .  .  .  .  09:44, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, clearly Hitler, Goering, Rommel, and Skorzeny are identical and interchangeable. jSarek 10:04, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
 * You and I both know what he meant. [[Image:DarthAbeonisSig2.gif|Jasca Ducato]] Sith Council Sith Campaign 10:55, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
 * All Nazis were politically the same, then. &mdash;Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Imperial Emblem.png|20px]] 12:20, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Working with the ISB?
Now, according to Wullf Yularen (the article, not the man. Though I'm sure he's quite a pleasant fellow), Yularen was waiting for Tarkin to turn traitor, and possibly turn the Death Star against Imperial Centre. Now, I can't remember where I heard this, but wasn't Vader there for the exact same reason? The question is, was Vader operating alone, directly through the Emperor, or was he working with the ISB? . .  .  .  22:43, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Perhaps Palpatine and the ISB had their own, yet same, suspicions. &mdash;Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Imperial Emblem.png|20px]] 01:17, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah, that's what I assumed. Just thought it was an interesting point. .  .  .  .  09:45, 5 February 2007 (UTC)