Talk:Grievous/Archive3

Title (again)
As has been done on the wikipedia page, why is this article not titled Grievous or General Grievous? Isn't the policy supposed to be on the most recent name? Are we interpreting General Grievous as an alias or as a real name that he took on, such as Vader, Zannah, and Lumpawaroo? Cull Tremayne 04:37, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
 * We're treating this the same we have Thrawn. QuentinGeorge 04:39, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
 * The real name should be the title, but there are exceptions. Admiral J. Nebulax 12:43, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
 * How are we treating it as Thrawn? Mitth'raw'nuruodo is the full name of Thrawn. How is Qymaen jai Sheelal like that? Why is Grievous the exception? Shouldn't he follow the same rules as Darth Bane? Cull Tremayne 00:37, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Qymaen jai Sheelal is Grievous's full name. Mitth'raw'nuruodo is Thrawn's. Both articles are titled as such.--DannyBoy7783 00:41, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
 * What? Qymaen jai Sheelal is not Grievous' full name. It is his name from his life before his disfigurement and time as a cyborg. That is what I was trying to convey. Grievous is not a nickname of Qymaen's as far as I know. It is his assumed name after becoming a cyborg. If this is the case, then shouldn't Darth Bane's article be titled Dessel? Cull Tremayne 00:58, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
 * It should be at Dessel. --Imp 01:05, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Lumiya too? To quote Sparqman

''I thought that when faced with two semi-equal names, the convention was to go with the one the character used last, similar to using the last held rank/title. She began as Shira Brie, but became Lumiya. Is that incorrect?'' Just replace the Lumiya parts with the Bane or Grievous scenario. But then again maybe he's mistaken? Cull Tremayne 04:32, 22 February 2006 (UTC) No. As an encyclopedia, we should have the actual name as the title, even if they did change their name.
 * In that case, Lumiya and Darth Bane are correct, since that is their "latest" name. This page, however, in that case should be at Grievous (since he abandoned his original name). QuentinGeorge 05:25, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I guess it all boils down to the question. Is Grievous an alias, or did Qymaen actually change his name? QuentinGeorge 05:26, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
 * In The Eyes of Revolution, Qymaen cuts down his fake Ivoshra and yells, I AM NOT A DROID! I AM GENERAL GRIEVOUS! If this isn't forsaking his former identity, I don't know what is. Cull Tremayne 05:35, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Then the page should be at Grievous, if we're sticking to our policy....and our article seems to indicate that, since it explicitly says he abandoned his name BEFORE he became a cyborg. QuentinGeorge 05:37, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
 * So is it good to change it? Is this consensus? Or perhaps we should wait a bit longer for further opinion? Cull Tremayne 05:46, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Let's hold off for a while. Our policy seems all over the place (based on comments here, and at Darth Bane's article), so I'd like to get an explicity statement of the consensus so everyone understands. QuentinGeorge 05:49, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Cool Beans. (What does that even mean?) Sure wish we had a consensus policy. Cull Tremayne 05:55, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
 * No. Articles should be at their original name, no matter what, unless a character's original name is unknown. Darth Bane and Lumiya should redirect to the proper name. Admiral J. Nebulax 21:36, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
 * See the Talk: Darth Bane page, QG has said that the policy is that article names belongs at the most accurate version of the last name they held. For Qymaen it's Grievous. However, still being debated I see. Cull Tremayne 00:31, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, because this is an encyclopedia. All entries should have their title as the actual name, as it is here with Grievous. Admiral J. Nebulax 00:44, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
 * What? They don't do that with Marilyn Monroe do they? The fact of the matter is that when they change their name that becomes the title they are addressed as in encyclopedic articles. For Qymaen, that name is Grievous. Cull Tremayne 01:08, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Just to agree with Tremayne: Samuel Clemens' Wikipedia article is at Mark Twain, Charles Dodgson's is at Lewis Carrol, William Jefferson Clinton's is at Bill Clinton, Russel Jones' is at Ol' Dirty Bastard, Bruce Wayne's is at Batman, etc., etc. I think this should be moved back to Grievous, and Darth Bane's should stay at Darth Bane. &mdash; Silly Dan 01:15, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
 * No way, Grievous is an adopted name. Our palpatine article is the same as the Darth sidious article. And Grievous still retained his other personal memories, as can be shown with his face mask, his Magnaguards, and his hatred towards the Huk. Nope, this is Qymaen jai Sheelal, not Grievous.--Xilentshadow900 00:59, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
 * He changed his name before he became a cyborg, so him retaining memories doesn't matter at all. Cull Tremayne 01:08, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Wrong. He was Qymaen jai Sheelal. He used the nickname "Grievous" even before he became a cyborg. Admiral J. Nebulax 20:25, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Is this addressed to me? What am I wrong about? I said that exact same thing. Cull Tremayne 23:42, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Oops, I meant to say right. But nonetheless, he was born Qymaen jai Sheelal and lived a life as a warlord with this name. He later change it to Grievous, became a cyborg, etc. He was Sheelal before Grievous. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 23:46, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Ok, confused me there for a second. Cull Tremayne 04:04, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree that this article should be under Grievous. After all, that's the name he's more commonly known as. I don't quite like this new idea of placing characters under their real names, especially under the case of Mitth'raw'nuruodo who is more commonly known as Thrawn to Star Wars fans, as well as being his lastest name. I think we should just stick to the previous policy of naming the characters under their LASTEST and MOST well-known names. Divinity 09:07, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Here's the deal: The way I see it, this will cause more anons to add the fanon Grievous name if it's moved back. I know that we might still get it here, but this shows his real name and proves SuperShadow is a complete fraud. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 21:08, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Now that's a good reason. CooperTFN 21:40, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Was that sarcasm? Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 21:43, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
 * No. CooperTFN 21:51, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Just checking... ;) Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 21:56, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
 * You have a good point there Jack.--Xilentshadow900 22:21, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
 * As long as the more popular version of character's names redirect to the relevant article, I don't see why we can't use birth names. The text always explains the name change anyway, so there won't be any confusion - Kwenn 22:25, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Excellent point, Kwenn. You could search for Grievous, and thanks to redirects, you'd get the exact name of him. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 00:14, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I do not think that Supershadow should influence our decision. Is that the only reason that we should keep it as his obscure former name? Since when have we been afraid of anons anyway? There's always a huge group of people here willing to switch it. Cull Tremayne 01:54, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
 * The SuperShadow thing would be a bonus; the multiple actual reasons for leaving it here have already been stated - birth name, name used longer, no proof of a "legal" change to Grievous, Thrawn precedent, redirects take care of the confused, etc. I wouldn't lose any sleep if this were at Grievous, but I don't think Mark Twain and Batman on Wikipedia are a convincing enough reason; this wiki has a different function than the primary one. Wikipedia also begins all its GFFA articles with "...was a fictional character in the Star wars universe", so obviously precedent there ≠ precedent here. CooperTFN 02:08, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
 * It does convince me, however, that people writing an encyclopedia in the GFFA would probably put his article under Greivous, so we probably should as well. (People in the DCU would, of course, have separate articles for Batman and Bruce Wayne. 8) ) &mdash;Silly Dan (talk) 02:32, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Again, I disagree. As an encyclopedia with all of these characters, an article should be at the original name. Now, if that means moving half of the articles to another name, I'm with it. If someone goes looking for Grievous's real name, they're most likely to type in "Grievous", and they'll be able to see his real name, since it would be the appropiate title of the article. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 13:08, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Ok, now that we are going to place characters under their ORIGINAL names, should we do the same for the other articles, such as moving Padmé Amidala to Padmé Naberrie, Leia Organa Solo to Leia Amidala Skywalker, as well as Tenel Ka to Tenel Ka Chume Ta' Djo? Since these are technically their original names. Divinity 15:30, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Technically, would Leia have been called that? Padmé didn't take Anakin's surname, because their marriage was a secret. So Leia would not have been called Skywalker. But yes, I believe we should move those pages, again, as long as there is an explaination within the text - Kwenn 15:34, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, even thought Leia was born a Skywalker, she did not know that she was one until ROTJ as she was taken shortly after birth by Bail Organa, and therefore due to that adoption, Leia's surname became Organa. So which means moving Leia Organa Solo to Leia Amidala Skywalker ISN'T really such a good idea because Leia had never called herself by her birth name. Even after discovering her heritage, she still continued to use Organa as her name, and later Organa Solo after her marriage to Han Solo. As for Padmé, yes I know that she did not took Anakin's surname, but since she was Padmé Naberrie before she became Amidala, we should move her article to that name since that was the original name she used before entering politics. Divinity 15:46, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, Leia could stay where it is now, I suppose. And Padmé should be moved. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 16:04, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I still say that if we're going to have a "real" look to the wiki then we should have it look like an encyclopedia. Real people have their last known name as the title. If someone wants to know Grievous' real name they'll type in Grievous, come to his page and in the first sentence they'll see born Qymaen jai Sheelal. It's just seems backward to have it another way, it's like keeping the Iron Fist at Brawl, it makes no sense to me. Also as Divinity said, if that's the precedent we're going to set, better remove all assumed titles then as well. No Solo for Leia Organa, no Skywalker tacked onto the end of Mara Jade etc. Cull Tremayne 16:12, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Good point, Cull Tremayne! Anyway, before we move those pages, I think we should discuss this further and come to a consensus before we can do anything about it. Cause I don't quite like this idea of naming the articles by their real names. If the character is more commonly referred to another name other than the original name, in the case of Grievous, we should just stick to that name, whether or not they are original. If we want to include that Grievous' real name, we can just do so by - like what Cull Tremayne said - placing it in the article itself. Otherwise the whole thing does seem kinda backward, especially to many fans. Divinity 16:38, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
 * No. As an encyclopedia, we should have the actual name as the title, even if they did change their name. However, "Leia Organa Solo" and "Mara Jade Skywalker" are perfectly fined because they got married. If you search for "Grievous", as I said, you'll find the article on him with his actual name. Something like "born Qymaen jai Sheelal" is pointless when it could be "later known as Grievous" or something like that. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 17:25, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I say we move this to Consensus Track, since it's getting quite long and has potentially far-reaching implications. CooperTFN 17:58, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I concur. Divinity 17:59, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Wait a minute, if we're still talking about Grievous, we should keep talking about him here. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 21:11, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Too many characters to whom this discussion would apply (Darth Bane, Lumiya, Mara Jade, etc., have all been mentioned.) &mdash;Silly Dan (talk) 21:20, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, but the discussion on Grievous could remain, right? Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 21:21, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
 * It's not like we're erasing it. &mdash;Silly Dan (talk) 21:36, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I know, but will the discussion for Grievous continue here or not? Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 21:36, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia has a different policy on this field. President Roosevelt (not the Theodore) is under Franklin D. Roosevelt, not Franklin Delano Roosevelt. Same goes for Kennedy, he is under John Kennedy, not John Fitzgerald Kennedy. Bill Clinton is under Bill Clinton not under William whatever Clinton. - TopAce 22:39, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
 * TopAce, are you referring to using middle names in article titles? Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 00:26, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I also agree to moving it to consensus track. Jack Nebulax, is there a reason why you want it to stay at Qymaen jai Sheelal?

But that's wrong, an encyclopedia keeps it at the last known name if they changed their name.

However, "Leia Organa Solo" and "Mara Jade Skywalker" are perfectly fined because they got married.

Right, but that's not their birth name, their name changed, just like Qymaen jai Sheelal's did, so by your reasoning they should stay at their original birth names.

Something like "born Qymaen jai Sheelal" is pointless when it could be "later known as Grievous" or something like that.

I still say that seems backward, an encyclopedia doesn't do it like that. It's pointless to have it that way when all encyclopedic articles use the last known name and then tell the birth name in the article. Cull Tremayne 04:39, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, there is a reason. Actually, reasons. First of all, this has been the name we've been waiting for for a while. I'd hate to see the article moved back to "Grievous" when we know his real name. Also, by keeping it here, it shows that this is in fact that correct name, and that SuperShadow is a liar, as I had stated above. Also, Grievous did have a life before becoming a cyborg, and during most of that life, he was Qymaen jai Sheelal, not Grievous. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 12:53, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
 * However, his name is Grievous. As much as I hate to admit it, Supershadow's site is not completely full of lies (just mostly, like adding Shakar as a last name). It really has no bearing on the situation that Qymaen had a life before his name change and becoming a cyborg. Mara Jade had a life before she became Mara Jade Skywalker, Leia Organa had a life before she became Leia Organa Solo, Shira Brie had a life before becoming Lumiya. It's unencyclopedic to keep it as his former name when he himself acknowledged himself as Grievous, others called him that, and he died with the name. Cull Tremayne 18:17, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
 * There. How about continuing the debate here where more than three people will see it? CooperTFN 18:25, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I actually wonder how many more people will see it there. Probably all the people involved in this debate will be in that one. Anyhow, moving along... :P Cull Tremayne 18:57, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Again, I disagree. While they are the same, Qymaen jai Sheelal and Grievous had many "different lives" under each name, as is the same with Shira Brie/Lumiya. While this might be a bad suggestion, how about having the article titled "Qymaen jai Sheelal/Grievous"? That way, both sides get what they want. The same could be done with Lumiya's. As for Mara Jade and Leia Organa, the only thing that happened to their names was that they received new last names when they got married. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 19:48, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Now that you mention it, it seems to me that this is almost like the Vader/Anakin case. Is splitting it into two different pages too drastic a change for you? I guess I could live with the Slash between the two names, however unencyclopedic that might look to me. Even if the character has drastically different lifestyles under different names, encyclopedias keep it as the last name. Like I said with Marilyn Monroe, before she was an international sex symbol, she was called Norma Jean and had a drastically different life than when she was a famous movie star. Does that mean that the article in an encyclopedia will list it as Norma Jean/Marilyn Monroe? However, if that's as far a compromise as we're going to get, I guess I can settle for the slash between names. Cull Tremayne 20:40, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I actually thought that you'd be completely against it. I just thought about it, and decided to say it because we needed to end this here. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 21:47, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Is there more to be said on this? We have agreed that this page should be at Grievous correct? I'll wait for further comments, but it seems to me that from the discussion on the Consensus track, that this page should be at Grievous. If no one replies, I'll assume you agree and change it tomorrow. Cull Tremayne 05:50, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
 * No. I refuse to let this be moved. It would be a disgrace to have it as "Grievous" when we've waited so long for his actual name. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 21:56, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately the consensus is to stick with their final most well known names. It doesn't matter if you "refuse" to let it be changed. Are you saying that you will not let it be changed to Grievous even when the consensus is that it should be at Grievous? Cull Tremayne 16:51, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I do not change articles like that. But, the name we have been waiting for for so long should be this article's title. I don't care about the rest of the articles. I care about this article. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 20:29, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
 * And? I also care about this article, and I would like to see it be as encyclopedic as possible. Whether or not I would prefer it to be at Grievous is not the issue and is not why I brought up the discussion. That's not what this should be about. It should be about being consistent and having the wiki conform to an encyclopedic standard. Also, I wasn't trying to insult your "editing techniques", but when you say something like you "refuse to let this be moved" I see an inability to compromise and a closemindedness that I didn't think you had. Cull Tremayne 21:48, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
 * While we all have the better of the article in mind, I disagree with your point of view, Cull Tremayne. I speak to all of you and ask you to not move this article back because this article, as I see it, represents a great accomplishment. Under the title Grievous, we learned about an alien cyborg who was Supreme Commander of the Droid Armies. But when we learned his actual name, we learned his history before the Clone Wars. Before becoming a cyborg. Before he was a major enemy to the Republic. Qymaen jai Sheelal lived before Grievous, and I believe that the title of this article should reflect that. He was a Kaleesh before he became a cyborg, and a great warlord before he became a Separatist general. This is why I said I refuse for this to be moved. It's not "an inability to compromise" or "a closemindedness". Some still might say that this page can be under Grievous because his past history, as well as his name, will always be here. This is true. But whether or not he changed his name, Qymaen jai Sheelal's past remains Qymaen jai Sheelal's past alone. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 22:30, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Very eloquently put I must say. However, I disagree with your analysis. Qymaen jai Sheelal was just a man before becoming Grievous, the destroyer of worlds. No one would care a lick in the GFFA if he stayed Qymaen jai Sheelal. He would have just been another outmatched warrior on a backwater planet. His love for Ronderu lij Kummar and his love for all Kalee is what made him change his name to Grievous. His passion and his sorrow for his home planet and his people is exemplified in the name Grievous. As Qymaen jai Sheelal he was a great warrior, but as Grievous he was the passion and ferocity of an entire world, of an entire species. As has been said, his cyborg nature may be associated with Grievous, but that was not the reason for the name Grievous. Jack, I understand the reasons for wanting it at Qymaen jai Sheelal, but when consensus is reached to change it to Grievous and you say something to the effect of "Who cares about consensus and consistency, I like this article the way it is." That's (in my opinion) being closeminded. Cull Tremayne 23:05, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
 * The entire debate was started for this page only, which is why I did not follow it to the consensus track. I assure you, I am not closeminded. I believe that keeping the article at Qymaen jai Sheelal, no matter what the consensus track decides, would greater benefit this article than having it at Grievous. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 23:09, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, but you did go there and vote did you not? I'm just trying to say that there are valid reason for having it at either Grievous or Qymaen jai Sheelal. You and I have both given reasons as to where the article should be, but if your trump card to keep it at Qymaen is just because you think so, I don't think that's right. First because it insults my arguments and efforts to have the page changed, and secondly because it devalues the whole point for debate in the first place. Cull Tremayne 23:53, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
 * "...but if your trump card to keep it at Qymaen is just because you think so...". No, that's not it. As I said above, I believe that keeping it here would greater benefit the article. But, I suggest that we wait for some other opinions here before deciding what to do with this article. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 00:28, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
 * As I said above, I believe that keeping it here would greater benefit the article. Right, because you think so. I agree with you that we need some other opinions though. Cull Tremayne 00:33, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, it's my opinion. I'm not ordering it. I'm suggesting it. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 00:36, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
 * And I was not suggesting that you were ordering it, I was just backing up my first statement (the trump card one). Cull Tremayne 01:10, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Hopefully someone else will post their opinion soon. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 01:50, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I personally think we should go with Grievous, simply because once he'd become the Separatist general he basically abandoned his old Kaleesh name; "Qymaen jai Sheelal" meant nothing to him, just as "Anakin Skywalker" meant nothing to Darth Vader. --MarcK [talk] 02:08, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Let's not compare this to Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader, because they have two separate articles. I don't think we want the same done for this. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 20:32, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't see why not. Seems to me its the easiest way to solve this problem. After all, Anakin Skywalker and Darth Vader, psychologically speaking, are two different people. If we were to apply the same logic to this situation, then its pretty obvious that Qymaen jai Sheelal and General Grievous are not.TIEPilot051999 08:39, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Exactly, which is why I said that we shouldn't compare this situation to Anakin/Vader. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 11:54, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
 * OK, I've spent some time thinking about this, and I think I've come up with a way to solve this that will (hopefully) please everyone. Anyone interested?TIEPilot051999 00:12, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Something new or something already mentioned? I don't think we're going to be able to please everyone on this. Cull Tremayne 02:19, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Why not have one article for General Grievous and one for Qymaen jai Sheelal?--Rune Haako 02:24, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Oh God no. There's not enough information to do an article split. And whould you spit it out already, TIEPilot051999? Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 02:54, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, I was thinking that for the introduction, we could just refer to him as "Grievous", without any mention of Qymaen jai Sheelal. Then, in the "Early Life", we put something to the effect of "Although known to the majority of the galaxy as the cyborg General Grievous, he was born Qymaen jai Sheelal, a reptilian Kaleesh." We then refer to him as Sheelal until we get to the stuff that references "The Eyes of Revolution", where we mention the whole "I am not a droid" situation, adding that he "apparently abandoned his former life" or something to that effect.TIEPilot051999 17:33, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
 * No offense intended, but how does that resolve the dispute over the title of the page? Cull Tremayne 18:09, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Because it will allow the article's title to be "Grievous" without having people debate it.TIEPilot051999 18:15, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
 * No. The introduction has to have his actual name anyway. That's not a good idea. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 20:07, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
 * At least I'm trying, here. You can't fault me for that, can you?TIEPilot051999 20:15, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
 * You know, this discussion is about the title of the article, not the introductory paragraph. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 20:17, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
 * His birthname should be in the first sentence, even if we do put it back at Grievous. &mdash;Silly Dan (talk) 20:20, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Okay, for the sake of ending this debate, move it back to Grievous and change the introductory paragraph accordingly. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 20:21, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Done, though wasn't really sure how to word the opening paragraph, fell free to change it if you think of something more appropriate. Cull Tremayne 23:58, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Fixed opening sentence. And by the way, you're welcome. ;) Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 23:59, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks :D Cull Tremayne 00:17, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
 * No problem. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 00:19, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Image

 * Hi, I just uploaded this picture from Star Wars visionaries is good enough to add? [[Image:Grievous tank.JPG|thumb]]
 * I'd say it's good enough. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 20:34, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Nice pic. --Master Starkeiller 13:18, 13 March 2006 (UTC)