Talk:Darth Plagueis/Legends

Darth Plagueis appears in those two sources? I think they're just sources and not appearances. --SparqMan 21:18, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
 * I added "(mentioned)" after them since he doesn't exactly 'appear'.

Quote
I managed to get my hands on the new book Dark Lord for a quick read recently. There was a direct quote which Sidious remembers his master using, and which is essential for this article. Unfortunately I cannot remember it exactly, but just a heads up so you lot know to look fer it. I think it includes summat like " Let me know what you fear, and I will shoe you what you must confront" and overall makes it seem like Plagueis was just as much of a bastard as his apprentice.
 * Thanks to Kuralyov! Gothymog 15:57, 4 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * Much better than the quote I put in. -- SFH 20:13, 4 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * Excellent quotes. Cmdr. J. Nebulax 20:59, 4 Nov 2005 (UTC)

Sidious' knowledge
Sidious never actually learnt Plagueis' secret knowledge of life, did he? He says to Anakin that only one has achieved it, but he and Anakin can work together to discover the secret. --Fade 15:30, 27 May 2005 (UTC) --Master Starkeiller 22:30, 23 Aug 2005 (UTC)We can never be sure. The story was told by Palpatine. Whatever he tells Anakin is not to be trusted.
 * Absolutly correct--Eion 15:34, 27 May 2005 (UTC)
 * I'm gonna go ahead and sort that out, then. --Fade 15:36, 27 May 2005 (UTC)

Yes, he could have merely lied about that. After all, he probably intended to have Padme die, as her death is the breaking point required to shackle Vader to his side permanently. Giving Anakin the knowledge to save his wife would only result in Vader's betrayal, as Anakin would see no further need to be apprenticed to Sidious. Therefore, he told Anakin he himself did not contain the knowledge. He skirted the issue by mentioning that they could discover the secret together, while leaving open the "possibility" that Anakin could save his wife.

What is so hard to believe that Darth Plagueis had the abilities his apprentice said he had? Sidious always praised the achievments of the members of his shadowy order, he certainly would brag about the ability once he learned that anakin wanted to be powerful enough to keep people from dying.
 * Actually, Palpatine could have every well lied to Anakin that Plagueis found a way to save people from dying. Palpatine just wanted the Chosen One as his apprentice; he could really have cared less about finding a way to save people from death. Cmdr. J. Nebulax 12:13, 23 Nov 2005 (UTC)

That makes no sense at all,why would Sidious lie about it to Anakin? I mean we can believe that a sith lord could destroy a star, and absord force users, but not have the ability to create and preserve life? DarthMalus

Speculation
"It has been speculated that, given that Anakin was supposedly born of a virgin birth, it is possible that Darth Plagueis was the one who influenced the midi-chlorians that 'fathered' Anakin, thus making him a sort of father by extension. Further speculation produces the possibility that this may have spurred Sidious into killing his master, so that he may take Anakin as his own, potentially as a vital piece in discovering the Plaugeuis' secret." -- as far as I know, that is completely OOU speculation. It probably should be moved to Behind the Scenes to keep it from being confused as IU fact. --SparqMan 15:06, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Done --Fade 15:13, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Not supposedly, he was born of a virgin birth. It was the will of the Force. The will of the Force for Plagueis to manipulate the midichlorines to create life, but what he intended for evil, the force intended for good. DarthMalus
 * Plagueis or Sidious... --Master Starkeiller 12:29, 6 Dec 2005 (UTC)
 * Or, it might not have been either one. Admiral J. Nebulax 21:53, 6 Dec 2005 (UTC)
 * Could be, but it seems as though the theory of Plagueis is the one that is most likely. DarthMalus
 * Remember, minimalism. There is no definitive cannon answer, and thats all that matters--The Erl
 * You mean "canon". Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 21:50, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Oh my god, I'm so embarrassed. I can't believe I made that mistake. Just after I heard about it too. *Hangs head in shame*
 * Don't worry; it's not that it was something really important. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 00:16, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Char box
What is the point of a char box? We no nothing of Plagueis, other than Palpatine's aside mention of him. --SparqMan 00:23, 14 Aug 2005 (UTC)
 * We know they're both the same don't we? -- Riffsyphon1024 23:05, 23 Aug 2005 (UTC)
 * Please don't keep adding the char box. We know virtually nothing about this character's species, homeworld, gender, height, eyes or hair colour, and so the box is useless. QuentinGeorge 12:36, 29 Oct 2005 (UTC)

An Explanation for Plagueis' Murder and other Bits of Backstory
Having just acquired Vader: The Ultimate Guide, I wanted to incorporate the huge amounts of facts and implications in regards to Darth Plagueis. Among the new gossip are these crucial facts:

1.) From p. 7: "If the lore of the Sith Lords is to be believed, Anakin Skywalker began life as the byproduct of Sith experimentation. Darth Plagueis, a devotee of the dark side and lover of the numinous and arcane, developed a method of preserving life in those who were dying - and, taken to the extreme, of inducing the midi-chlorians to create out of nothing. Anakin Skywalker, who never had a biological father, is believed to have been the result of Darth Plagueis' vision. It remains unclear whether the deed came about through the efforts of Plagueis or through those of Plagueis' ambitious apprentice, Darth Sidious."

This changes the dynamic of the "miraculous birth" debate. If Sidious alone says something about Plagueis power to create life to Anakin, it cannot be taken seriously even if it does potentially answer where Anakin came from, because SIDIOUS LIES. A LOT. On the other hand, if some source other than Sidious' lying mouth says something to this effect, then it can be taken more seriously. Why would Sidious lie to himself about it? If he preserved this fact in Sith lore - and he would be the only one in a position to do so - then he probably meant what he said. This is the first piece of circumstantial evidence that Plagueis did indeed "father" Anakin. As to why it was Plagueis and not Sidious who did it, that is partially answered by the next fact.

2.) From p. 35: "Plagueis revealed to Sidious an experiment he'd conceived to create life directly from the midi-chlorians found in one's blood, potentially yielding a being of astounding power. Comprehending that any such being would amount to Sidious' replacement, the Sith apprentice murdered his master." There aren't a whole heap of recorded "miraculous births" out there with tremendous Force powers, so unless the "experiment" refers to someone other than Anakin, a predecessor, then this is more circumstancial evidence that Plagueis himself caused Anakin's "miraculous birth."

It also gives Sidious a specific motive for doing his master in: he killed Plagueis to save his job, as it were. An entire chain of events flows from this, including a series of decsions Sidious would have had to make in terms of what to do with Plagueis when he feared for his position. If you put yourself in his head, it is not hard to guess how his thought processes worked. As a side note, it also dates the death to 43 BBY, the date Anakin would have been conceived (assuming he took nine months to be born and that his birth was in the fourth month of 42 BBY). Palpatine would have been a senator for nine years by then, and Maul would have been eleven years old.

3.) From p. 35: "Darth Sidious had multiple pupils, beginning with the feral Sith Lord Darth Maul, whom Sidious raised and trained without Plagueis' knowledge." As I put into the article, why would Sidious care what Plagueis knew if he was already dead? This means that Sidious was breaking the cardinal rule of only two Sith behind his master's back, and though his reasons for this are not known, the most logical reason is that he was already planning to unseat Plagueis and become master himself, with Maul already prepared as an apprentice.

I've got more, but my fingers are tired. More later!


 * Could you remove the OOU statements you've put into the article? QuentinGeorge 05:52, 8 Sep 2005 (UTC)


 * I'd be glad to, Quentin, as soon as I get near my computer tonight, when I'll have the time needed to do the edits. At the time, I hadn't been aware of the rules here for OOU materials, and my personal style tends to incorporate both (when you have to defend a fact you've cited, it seemed wise the have the source at hand). It's my fault, I should have checked the rules first. But let not your heart be troubled, I'l get 'er done. Otherwise, hope you like the article! Erik Pflueger 15:54, 8 Sep 2005 (UTC)

Creating the Chosen One
I read some blogs on starwars.com, and I was wondering the same thing others were wondering, If Darth Plagueis could created life, did he use the force to creat Anakin? More than likely he did. Also George Lucas on the Epi. 3 commentary seems to strongly hint toward it. It can be said with 90% certainty. This expirament could also explain why Plagueis went to sleep, using so much energy and focus to create, that Sidious took this moment to kill his out of date master. It would also seem Sidious had a great deal of respect for him, and a great deal of envy. He wanted the power Plagueis had, but now it was obvious that Plagueis had created the possible replacement for him, one he would mold into the perfect apprentice, and one less ambitious than Sidious. Maul could also have been a Dark Acolyte at the time so that he would technically be a sith lord, merely a weapon in preparation, and now with this expirament created and his master dead, he would use maul as a place holder, and wait for the expirament to surface. Now if this is in fact the truth behind anakin's creation, then we have one question left to answer, where did he come into contact with Shmi, and if he selected Shmi, then why? Was she of a lineage of powerful force users? Who knows? However if this is all true, then we've only scratched the surface of the plot by the sith, and this opens a whole new realm thus broadening the star wars universe. The humorous thing about this theory is that Bane's order failed, because the sith ended up destroying themselves, by creating the very being who was prophecied to destroy them. A being whose power could never be topped nor duplicated ever again.
 * There are many scenarios to Anakin's birth. Just read the "Anakin's Possible "Father"" section on the Anakin Skywalker page. Cmdr. J. Nebulax 20:27, 3 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * Of course, this is still uncertain. Admiral J. Nebulax 21:22, 1 Dec 2005 (UTC)
 * Well of course. DarthMalus
 * Until a source officially says Plagueis was his "father", we can only assume this. Admiral J. Nebulax 20:18, 7 Dec 2005 (UTC)
 * I think that's never gonna happen. There won't be a source saying Sidious/Plagueis made Anakin. It will always be ambiguous I think. --Master Starkeiller 20:34, 7 Dec 2005 (UTC)
 * Just like my old science teacher said, "A good mystery will always remain one". Admiral J. Nebulax 20:36, 7 Dec 2005 (UTC)
 * Also, any trace of "Plagueis created Anakin" in the article should be changed to "Plagueis might have created Anakin" in case if it hasn't been done yet. Admiral J. Nebulax 21:25, 8 Dec 2005 (UTC)

Info box
There is absolutely no reason for one. We know his gender and his affiliation. That's it. Admiral J. Nebulax 02:00, 1 Jan 2006 (UTC) well me my self i think he is hhis farther other wise where eles cold he be and what eles could explain anikins willingness to go to the darkside and also his great strenth with the darkside
 * I suppose it'll be OK without one. However, I felt that a character box made it clear that we would be dealing with a character, just as a vehicle box specifies that we are dealing with a vehicle. Yeah, I know it's kind of obvious, but... General Kenobi 02:02, 1 Jan 2006 (UTC)
 * Aww, I was just about to protect the page :'( --Imp 02:03, 1 Jan 2006 (UTC)
 * Sorry to disappoint you. ;) General Kenobi 02:04, 1 Jan 2006 (UTC)
 * I think he was talking to me, General. Anyway, I've learned. Admiral J. Nebulax 03:20, 1 Jan 2006 (UTC)
 * Okay, that had nothing to do with the infobox discuss. And learn how to spell. Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 15:56, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

picture
does any one know where to find a picture of darth plagueis? If you do can you put it on the page?
 * If there was one, it would be up there. Admiral J. Nebulax 17:58, 2 Jan 2006 (UTC)
 * Find someone who's good at drawing, see if they could come up with a concept for plagueis, put it here (NOT on the article) for us/others to look at, then we can decide. if we all like it, and we put it up somewhere, then it might get noticed by someone who works for Lucas, and they might tell him. <- very unlikely, so why not make one and send it to him??-Yoda1300 17:53, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Wrong. We do not use fan-made images at all. Admiral J. Nebulax 20:32, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Except for the case of Rokur Gepta.  62.254.64.13 19:38, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
 * How is that picture fanon? Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 20:08, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Just wryly noting that even we have been known to use fan-modified images on occasion. Also Ben Skywalker. Personally I don't approve of using pure fanon images, but it IS a slippery slope. Where do we draw the line? 62.254.64.13 18:28, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
 * This is different. No non-fan-made images of Plagueis exist at all yet. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 19:28, 18 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Just a thought...Yoda1300 21:35, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, don't even think about it anymore. Admiral J. Nebulax 23:07, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
 * No need to bite his head off! It was a good idea, even if it was wrong. Jasca Ducato 17:47, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
 * "... a good idea, even if it was wrong". What the-? Admiral J. Nebulax 21:17, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Yoda1300's idea of putting forward a concept idea of Darth Plagueis to be scrutinised was good. I agree that it would need to be adopted by GL first so in that respect, it was wrong. Jasca Ducato 19:16, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
 * An image of Plagueis would be nice, if an official one existed. But there is no such one. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 19:37, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

1500 years old?
I read somwhere that Plagueis was 1500 years old when he died and was born on Korribaan. I am trying to find the source.Kalas Grengar 03:10, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Don't bother. Sounds too much of a stretch to beleive anyway. -- SFH 03:13, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Probably more SuperIdiot fanon. Admiral J. Nebulax 13:22, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Contradicts the Darth Bane timeline anyway, if Plagueis was already 500 years old at the Seventh Battle of Ruusan. &mdash; Silly Dan 13:42, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Good point. Admiral J. Nebulax 16:13, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
 * We don't know how old Plagueis was or even what he looked like, but we do know that 200 prior to the coming of Darth Sidious, the darkside began gathering strength. DarthMalus
 * From what source? And why so specific? The Sith Order grows steadily more powerful from Ruusan onwards - Kwenn 19:22, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
 * "but we do know that 200 [years] prior to the coming of Darth Sidious, the [dark side] began gathering strength". Doesn't have to be Plagueis. Admiral J. Nebulax 20:18, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
 * but it could. don't know, but it is a possibility.
 * But it probably isn't. Admiral J. Nebulax 21:11, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
 * probably isn't? you cant say that. no reason to believe or disbelieve it. he could keep people from deth and extend his own life, and sidious spoke of plagueis as becoming so powerful that the only thing he feared was of course losing it. it could refer to plagueis, but until we can be sure, then it wont be in the article. this is only speculation, an opening of one's mind to the possibility. it is only speculation, no need of shooting it down. what is the proble reason for this nebulax, you didn't give a reason, what else could be a possibility?DarthMalus
 * Uh, maybe the Sith Master that trained Plagueis, or any of the other Sith Masters before him. I extrememly doubt that Plagueis was 1,500 years old. Admiral J. Nebulax 19:58, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
 * The dark side growing strong again was from The New Essential Chronology. Personally, I'm inclined to believe that it was the birth of Plagueis that caused to the Force to become murky, though until we see any sort of confirmation, it should go in "behind the scences" at best, in list of fanon at worse. -- SFH 20:03, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Okay, why are we assuming this, then? We have no proof that it was/wasn't Plagueis. It could have been another strong Sith that trained Plagueis or some other Sith. Admiral J. Nebulax 20:06, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I misspoke. I meant if we decide to put it in. I think it was when he was born, but then again, I also thought that Allana was going to named Padme, so what do I know? -- SFH 20:09, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I definitely think that we shouldn't put it in. We don't know that it was him. Admiral J. Nebulax 20:12, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
 * who said we're posting it. no no no, this is speculation not fact. we only know that darth plagueis was a powerful dark lord of the sith, he was possibly the father of anakin, he was cruel, and that he had a master and he had an apprentice. that's all! dont anyone post anything else in the article. the page is perfect as it is, for now. DarthMalus
 * Okay, then... Admiral J. Nebulax 20:23, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Just a reference: NEC was the not the first one to say "dark side gathering strength" stuff. In Labyrinth of Evil and EP3 Novel Yoda & Mace said that the Sith never disappear, the Sith does not create darkness, they merely use the darkness already exists. In LoE Yoda mentioned the Sith "suddenly comes closer to the surface". Darth Kevinmhk 05:47, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, I suppose that "the dark side gathering strength" could be interpreted many ways. Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 12:22, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

Image
I have looked all over the web and there are no images of Darth Plageus has anyone found one cause if they did please put it on the article
 * There's already a section on this. Anyway, no canonical images exist of him. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 20:23, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
 * and even if one does exist, it has not been made public. DarthMalus 22:17, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Trust me, no canonical images exist. Maybe some fan-made ones, but no canonical ones. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 23:11, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
 * What about this? 86.137.36.195 19:56, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
 * That's Infinities, and therefore not canon. But perhaps that could be cut off and placed in the Behind the Scenes section. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 20:44, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Like so?--Redemption 23:11, 1 April 2006 (UTC) [[Image:Plaguesfar.jpg|thumb]]
 * That works. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 23:49, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
 * How do we know that's definately supposed to be Plagueis? The text box mentions "his successor", i.e. Sidious, whom that figure could also be - Kwenn 21:18, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Good point. I'll fix the image caption to reflect this. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 23:10, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm going to find out if the artist intended it to be Plagueis. DarthMalus 17:35, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
 * How can you? Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 19:58, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Kevin Rubio (the author of the Tag&Bink comics) posts on the Jedi Council Forums, so that's one possible avenue to explore. - Darth Culator 20:19, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Hopefully we'll get an answer. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 20:19, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Of course, even if it is Plagueis all we learn from it is that he shared Palpatine's fashion sense and sometimes carried a big stick. - Darth Culator 20:40, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Remember, it's non-canon anyway. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 20:40, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Kevin Rubio confirmed that it's intended to be Plagueis. Still non-canon, though, and I edited the caption to note that. - Lord Hydronium 04:29, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Canon or non-canon, we still can't find out anything about him from it. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 12:51, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
 * The depiction is of Plagueis, but it is a non-canon appearance. If we have to we can specify whether he's human or not. Shouldn't we have this as his profile pic now that we know it is Plagueis.? DarthMalus 01:16, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
 * We might have to cut it to have it centered on Plagueis, but yes. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 02:04, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

So, Darth Plagueis was a Muun?
This'll be as hard to believe for all of you as it was for me. But on the official site I just read this:

"James Luceno, author of the bestselling Cloak of Deception and Darth Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader, has been contracted by Del Rey Books to write a novel about Darth Sidious and his Muun mentor, Darth Plagueis."

Wha-wha-whaaaaaaaat?! Plagueis was one of those skinny Muun punks?

I just wanted you to know I wasn't high; I had to add it because the OS said it. But I'm as shocked as anyone. Luceno can yet make it work to my satisfaction, but on first listen, it's a mind-screw. Erik Pflueger 01:07, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Perhaps there's a stronger species of Muun? Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 01:10, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
 * He'd have to have drank a whole lot of Muscle Milk to be strong enough in my eyes. And that's the whole point, isn't it? "In my eyes?" Be honest, Jack (and anyone else): in all your work on the site, whenever you assigned a mind's-eye image to Plagueis, was there so much as one instant where you ever thought he'd be a Muun?! As I said, Luceno's no slouch; he's an excellent writer, and if anyone can make that work, he may be able to pull it off. But WOW! Erik Pflueger 01:14, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I really expected him to be a Human. Well, there goes all my fanfiction about a Human Plagueis... ;) Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 01:16, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
 * At times like this, I thank God I never wrote fan fiction... Erik Pflueger 01:18, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Tell me about it. But James Luceno, if you're reading this, that bulky subspecies of Muun would go really good with Plagueis... Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 01:19, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I'll bet they thought "Ok, what's the least Sith Lord Like species there, is, just so that we wouldn't have guessed it right. Well, they sure know how to make a lame species suddenly become extremely cool. I guess we could start removing the Non Canon Image? Since that does not look Muuny. Or not. We could Put a Muun Shadow Pic?! I'll work on that and show it to you after I'm done, to see what you think. --Sauron18 20:18 08 June 2006
 * Well, you never know, the Infinities image could still work: maybe he really is a bulky Muun subspecies, and so he fills out the black robes. Erik Pflueger 01:21, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Remember&mdash;non-canon. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 01:22, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Oh, I remember... (makes quotation marks in the air with his fingers) "Non-canon!" Riiiiiiiiiiiiight... ;) Erik Pflueger 01:26, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
 * How About this Shadow Image?? Or a variation of it?--Sauron18 01:25 08 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, I guess we can rule out that Palpatine was a speciest...How can a Dark Lord be taken seriously with one of those high, panicy voices? -- SFH 04:44, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Remember, folks: IT COULD HAVE BEEN A WORSE SPECIES. Cutch 04:53, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I concede the point, Cutch. :) Erik Pflueger 04:57, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Hey, I think it'd be awesome if Plagueis was a Shriek. Larry certainly knew how to inspire fear in others; I'm sure ol' Darth P. the Wise could too. :-P -- Ozzel 05:07, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
 * And by the way, no two Sith are exactly alike in character or physical appearance anyway; just because he's a Muun doesn't mean he can't still be scary, in his own way. I can't see him being the same brand of evil Sith Lord that Sidious is, but perhaps he can be creepy in a sort of stereotypical child-molester fashion (picture the Reverend Kane character from Poltergeist II and you'll get the idea). Or, perhaps, if he's made-up and dressed right, his lanky frame could actually make him a kind of dessicated living figure of Death. He doesn't have to be the same type of evil character as Sidious is to work; he just has to be an outright bastard, and even a Muun can still be that. In fact, for all we know, Sidious' brand of evil could be a deliberate attempt to set himself apart from his master. After all, there were several ways in which he was - or saw himself as - better than Plagueis. And that attitude was justified; it was Sidious that took the final steps to achieve the Sith's revenge, not Plagueis. So, to be fair to Luceno, despite my obvious and, I think, understandable surprise - if not outright shock - I won't write this off as unworkable. Erik Pflueger 05:11, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Actually, he could've been a whole lot worse than a Shriek.--Sauron18 00:55 09 June 2006 (UTC)
 * That does it, Sauron! You've gone too far! You've taken something that was amusing and you made it totally depraved! ;) Erik Pflueger 05:58, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
 * See? Muuns aren't that bad when you think about what GL might've done with Plagueis if he hadn't been EUized :p --Sauron18 01:25 09 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I reckon his thin look will go well with his name, Plagueis. Since plagues often leave people with disfigured bodies and thin them out. VT-16 11:45, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Excellent point. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 11:48, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
 * It is shocking, right. But maybe that's why Palpatine hates aliens - because when he was young and weak, an alien master bully him. Darth Kevinmhk 13:46, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
 * well shall we had this info in the article? the shadow pic is kl though. And yes, wat Kevinmhk said could have basis, maybe becasue of his masters alienness was part of what casued Palps New Order Ideals.Jedi Dude
 * The only official info we have at the moment is the fact that he's a Muun. The rest is pure speculation and should not be added, since it really doesn't have any basis - Kwenn 14:19, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Plus, he wasn't an all-black colored San Hill. ;) Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 15:42, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, I've seen shadow pics for Unknown characters before, which are basically the human sillouette, with a question mark. I think that for a character like him it might be nice to do the same, just to imply a general shape at least. What do you think? The Shadow? Shadow with a Question Mark?? It's what we do at the BSG wiki for the unknown Cylons, and it doesn't really look bad.--Sauron18 17:23 09 June 2006
 * I don't mind it. Cutch 22:25, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't like the sillouette at all. I'd rather have no image. I'm sure the book will have a picture of him on the cover, we should just wait til then. I know it's a painfully long wait, but we can do it. Lonnyd 22:27, 9 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Why is everyone always so afraid of temporary images? There's something similar going on on the Revan page right now. Cutch 22:33, 9 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I added a question mark if that makes it better.... otherwise it can be reverted. I still think it's an opportunity which we rarely get, for a sillouette image to work it often needs to be quite unique, and a Muun? Well, let's just say it's a fairly clear indication of what Plagueis may look like, and yet not exactly fan art. (especially since all Muuns seem to look the same)--Sauron18 17:37 09 June 2006
 * Yet it's non-canon. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 23:49, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Technically, it is canon, since yesterday we were given his species, and since it reveals nothing more than the species' shape (which doesn't change, as per the description of the species) then it would be canon in that it shows what is canon and hides what is not.Sauron18 19:15 09 June 2006
 * No, it's not canon, because it's a fan-modified image of San Hill with a red question mark on it. That's not Darth Plagueis. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 01:17, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
 * How about we just add a picture of San Hill and say Plagueis was of the same species as him? The blacked-out question mark pic doesn't really do much, because his silhouette will undoubtably be different (he likely didn't wear the same clothes), it'll be his features and skin tone that's the same.  And about the general species picking- remember, San Hill is only one Muun.  And considering his job he's probably lankier than most.  I mean, think about it, if the only human you'd seen was Michael Jackson, what would you think about humans?!  An individual is not necessarily representative of the average of a species.  --Thetoastman 03:40, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Actually, all Muun are lanky and look relatively similar to San Hill. It's in their species description. And it's true, not all Muun may have the same body, but they do have on similarity, which is noted as a species trait. The shape of their heads.--Sauron18 02:03 10 June 2006
 * Now, if we made it only portrait style, so that you can see the shape of a Muun head, though no other "Individual" traits, would that be alright? In my opinion it would not be wrong since it doesn't specifically imply it's Hill, but rather that it's a Muun. I'll change the pic again. A head shot would provide a perfect balance between identifying him, yet not being wrong by anything.--Sauron18 02:24 10 June 2006

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darth_Plagueis
 * That head-silouette fits in nicely as a temporary image. :) VT-16 08:24, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Hey, at least it's not the one Wikipedia is using--Sauron18 03:35 10 June 2006
 * That's terrible! They qould never get away with that here. Lonnyd 09:45, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Okay, we can't use any fan-modified images for the main image. Why? Because fan-modified it non-canon. I don't see why we can't just wait for a canonical image of him. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 12:33, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
 * This is a method used in many places (including stricter wikis), to give at least an idea of what the character is. It's not supposed to be a fan depiction of Darth Plagueis, because the fact is that it's not. It's not meant to be a depiction --Sauron18 12:13 10 June 2006
 * I just want to say, this is a picture of a Base Muun, deindividualized (word?) to create an Anonymus Muun. The modifications don't remove the canonicity, but rather immunize the picture from the topic of "canonicity". Basically, it's just a temporary Muun John Doe Picture, it gives people something to look at (even if it's just a shadow) and it's not depicting anything that won't be.--Sauron18 12:36 10 June 2006
 * Indeed. I like the blacked-out bust. Cutch 19:19, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
 * We are not using a fan-modified image on the article. We either wait to get a canon image or have nothing at all. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 19:53, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I concur with Jack Nebulax. Adamwankenobi Talk to me! My home. 19:59, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Wookieepedia is an encyclopedia, not a place to show off your modified images that are non-canon. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 20:02, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
 * It's not for showing off, it's a procedure that is used in other good encyclopedias as well, like the LostPedia for example. An Anonymus image looks better than no image. I really don't care who or what does the image, it's just temporary, but it's a good way of filling the spot without it being fan art and without having the official image. --Sauron18 15:30 10 June 2006
 * Look, I understand your point, and frankly I don't care whether or not it's put on the page. I just want to make sure that you understand my point, which was to improve the page with a Muun Doe, which could've been a nice change to the wookiepedia. It wasn't to "show off" anything, simply offering a good technique that works in other places well. So leave it imageless, or make a vote. It doesn't really matter, especially if you get the wrong idea. --Sauron18 16:06 10 June 2006
 * People take things too seriously... Cutch 21:13, 10 June 2006 (UTC)