Talk:501st Legion/Legends

Were the 501st Legion trained by the Separatists and/or Sith to kill Jedi? -- Eddyward Telerionus 22:28, 6 Sep 2005 (UTC)
 * Well, only if you look at it from Palpatine's POV. The clones were his tools.  But, for all intents and purposes, they were commissioned to destroy the Separatists.  The purge of the Jedi Order was a later order, signifying their transition to the Empire. [[Image:Tbhelm.gif|30px]] Shadowtrooper talk 00:37, 7 Sep 2005 (UTC)

Well, i don't believe that the 501st Legion fought against the Separatists. I believe that the 501st Legion was a top-secret military unit within the Grand Army of the Republic that was trained by the Sith to respond to Emperor Palpatine/Darth Sidious's command to kill Jedi. -- Eddyward Telerionus 10:47, 7 Sep 2005 (UTC)
 * Actually, I don't think it was that way. They didn't probally fight against the Separatists (save maybe for the ground battle of the Battle of Coruscant), because they were probally similiar to the Shocktroopers: for homeplanet defence. Now, maybe they were trained in secret, but I extremely doubt they were trained by Palpatine/Sidious to specifically attack and kill the Jedi. Cmdr. J. Nebulax 19:18, 7 Sep 2005 (UTC)

Nobody knew about the 501st Legion except Palpatine/Darth Sidious. They were secretly trained by the Sith to enact a series of emergency protocols (including Order 66 against the Jedi). The 501st Legion Clone troopers were the first true stormtroopers. Would y'all consider ARC-trained Phase II Clone trooper commanders of other units to be agents of the 501st Legion? -- Eddyward Telerionus 06:29, 17 Sep 2005 (UTC)
 * Incorrect. The 501st was well known. It definately wasn't a secret. QuentinGeorge 06:48, 17 Sep 2005 (UTC)

Well, i need proof of this! -- Eddyward Telerionus 07:06, 17 Sep 2005 (UTC)
 * Where's your proof it was a secret? QuentinGeorge 07:14, 17 Sep 2005 (UTC)

I don't have proof and nobody in the Republic knew the 501st Legion (except Palpatine/Sidious). -- Eddyward Telerionus 00:43, 18 Sep 2005 (UTC)
 * Battlefront II will probably shed light on the 501st.-LtNOWIS 01:00, 18 Sep 2005 (UTC)
 * Actually, considering how a person is in control of a clone trooper of the 501st (and his/her actions will determine the fate of the Republic...), I don't think this will shed much light about the unit. Just my opinion, of course. Cmdr. J. Nebulax 12:05, 18 Sep 2005 (UTC)

Battles fought
Where are the sources for about half of those battles? I know the Clone Wars-era ones are right, but if the answer for the others is "Because of Battlefront II", that's incorrect. Also, the 501st Legion wasn't even active during the Battle of Geonosis. Cmdr. J. Nebulax 19:31, 30 Oct 2005 (UTC)
 * Listen, Xilentshadow, not everything in the games is true. Just because they're around in Battlefront II for those missions does not show that they were really in those battles. The 501st wasn't activated until a while after Geonosis, and there is nothing official to state that they happened to participate in the First Battle of Yavin Base or Hoth. Now, it's possible that they were really at Hoth due to Vader's arrival, but that is mere speculation. Cmdr. J. Nebulax 23:00, 30 Oct 2005 (UTC)
 * "The 501st began just as any of the other initial clone units that blazed across the rocky deserts of Geonosis in the first historic battle of the Clone Wars. They seemed identical to the other clones that infiltrated the Separatist stronghold and pushed the Confederacy forces off-planet. Nonetheless, the Supreme Chancellor himself took special interest in the success record of the 501st." Star Wars Databank. I know at least that one is right. I assumed that since at least some of the story of Battlefront II is being put in the databank, all of it is canonical. For the battle of Yavin base or whatever, I figured that "Vader's fist" would at least follow vader onto yavin, or anywhere else he went. Xilentshadow900 23:03, 30 Oct 2005 (UTC)
 * Well, what it clearly shows is that many other clone units began at Geonosis, however, it might show that they were at Geonosis. But until good proof the clearly shows it is found, we really can't jump to conclusions. Cmdr. J. Nebulax 23:06, 30 Oct 2005 (UTC)
 * Also, it doesn't say that Vader was on Yavin during the battle. Cmdr. J. Nebulax 23:06, 30 Oct 2005 (UTC)
 * I'll ask somebody at LFL. Xilentshadow900 23:06, 30 Oct 2005 (UTC)
 * Vader's Fist boards the Tantive IV in ANH, and is present at Hoth and Endor. And if the 501st began 'just as any of the other initial clone units' then yes, they were at Geonosis with the rest - Kwenn
 * Okay, Hoth and Endor will be added. But where did you get this information, Kwenn? Cmdr. J. Nebulax 23:11, 30 Oct 2005 (UTC)
 * And vader is at the First Battle of Yavin Base, according to that page. Xilentshadow900 23:16, 30 Oct 2005 (UTC)
 * Where does it say that he's on the ground, then? Cmdr. J. Nebulax 19:57, 31 Oct 2005 (UTC)
 * From the Databank: When the Death Star plans were stolen by Rebel spies, the 501st were dispatched on missions to track down the valuable technical readouts. Such reassignment saved the ranks from destruction when the Death Star's main reactor exploded at the climax of the Battle of Yavin. Not explicitly stated, but which other stormtrooper legion would accompany Vader during the pursuit of Leia than the 501st? Remember, the Devastator was Vader's pre-Executor flagship, so it's likely members of the 501st were stationed onboard - Kwenn
 * And I'm pretty sure that its not relevant whether Darth Vader was on the ground or not.Xilentshadow900 20:38, 31 Oct 2005 (UTC)
 * Yet, guesses are not good enough. Until a good source is found clearly stating that the 501st fought at the First Battle of Yavin Base, I'm removing it. Cmdr. J. Nebulax 20:41, 31 Oct 2005 (UTC)
 * The fact that its in the game should be enough, considering its canonical. Xilentshadow900 22:33, 31 Oct 2005 (UTC)
 * It should. I really don't understand why we need to have an argument about it. The game is canon. The game presents the 501st at all of the battles mentioned. End of story.TIEPilot051999 22:40, 31 Oct 2005 (UTC)
 * Refer to the last statement of the "Behind the Scenes" section on the Clone Jet Trooper page. You'll see why we need better proof. Cmdr. J. Nebulax 23:38, 31 Oct 2005 (UTC)
 * "...however, due to Battlefront's tendency to go against the official canon..." Cmdr. J. Nebulax 23:38, 31 Oct 2005 (UTC)
 * The two things, are unrelated. One is a soldier, but the other is an event in the canon, and not a unit. --Xilentshadow900 23:50, 31 Oct 2005 (UTC)

Whiteboy himself said the single-player mission was considered canonical. While it doesnt make it official, its official enough for his wiki. --Xilentshadow900 23:54, 31 Oct 2005 (UTC) Xilentshadow900 21:06, 1 Nov 2005 (UTC) The game confirms it's the 501st who accompany Vader onboard the Tantive IV. They lose over half their number at Yavin, but have their finest hour at Hoth (the last mission). No mention of Endor in the game, though I assume the Emperor is referring to the 501st when he tells Luke a 'legion of his best troops' is stationed on the Sanctuary Moon - Kwenn
 * Fine. But I would still like to see some actual proof. Cmdr. J. Nebulax 23:54, 31 Oct 2005 (UTC)
 * Or disproof eh? --Xilentshadow900 23:56, 31 Oct 2005 (UTC)
 * Either proof that they were at the First Battle of Yavin Base, or proof that the weren't at the battle. Cmdr. J. Nebulax 23:59, 31 Oct 2005 (UTC)
 * Right, proof and disproof. Xilentshadow900 00:08, 1 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * Exactly. That's why I'm leaving it up there for the time being. But I don't think there is any proof to support the claim that they participated at the First Battle of Yavin Base. Cmdr. J. Nebulax 00:10, 1 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * Unless I'm wrong, in one of the missions in-game, you attack yavin after the death star blows up. I'm pretty sure thats called the First Battle of Yaving Base. and I'm pretty sure that's part of the continuity.--Xilentshadow900 00:25, 1 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * No, the First Battle of Yavin Base was different. It happened after a blockade of Yavin 4. Cmdr. J. Nebulax 20:55, 1 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * Right, because they blew up the Death star. Its the same thing.
 * That is probably the most likely meaning of "a legion of his best troops". Cmdr. J. Nebulax 22:12, 3 Nov 2005 (UTC)

Geonosis
Okay, another thing: How could the 501st participate at Geonosis while the unit was not created until after the Battle of Jabiim? Like I said before, not everything in the games is always right. Cmdr. J. Nebulax 00:36, 5 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * The troops of the 501st were at Geonosis. And where does it say that the legions were formed after Jabiim? Yes, Alpha's clone commander program was initiated following his escape from Castle Ventress, but that doesn't mean the legions hadn't already been established. We've already got named clone commandos operating at Geonosis, and named ARCs soon after (Alpha, Nate, the Pengalan and Cestus squads...) so why not regular troops? - Kwenn
 * Well, I doubt that the troops of the unit were at Geonosis because it says that they were taken from Kamino and raised on Coruscant. And what does the named commandos and ARCs have to do with this? Cmdr. J. Nebulax 14:39, 20 Nov 2005 (UTC)

Appo
It says in the article that Appo was killed by Zett Jukassa, but the article on Appo says he survived. I don't know which is true, but I suggest that this be fixed. Hollis 13:20, 10 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * I believe that a book (Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader, I believe) said he survived. Cmdr. J. Nebulax 23:51, 10 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * what? the book isnt even out yet...--Xilentshadow900 23:23, 11 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * It is in the UK, I know as have read it. Gothymog 23:37, 11 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * I don't have the book, but I know my friend in the UK has a copy of it. Cmdr. J. Nebulax 23:49, 11 Nov 2005 (UTC)

9th Assault Corps
After giving it some thought, I've come to the conclusion that the 501st Legion was an element of Cmdr. Gree's 9th Assault Corps. This realization comes after I noticed the likeness between Gree's armor, at least his RotS camoflauge armor, and that of a trooper of the 501st. In addition, the 9th Assault Corps, the 41st Elite Legion at the very least, appeared to have been stationed on Coruscant, at least temporarily. Once more, the troopers whom we see during the opening Battle of Coruscant sequence, the ones aboard the exploding Star Destroyer, all sported 41st Elite Legion markings. It makes sense. -- AdmThrawn --
 * But its not from an actual source, therfore will not be incorporated into the article.--Xilentshadow900 20:06, 17 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * Don't get your panties in a bunch. I never suggested, nor do I think, that it should be. Just thought I'd share that, as it makes a hell of a lot of sense. -- AdmThrawn --
 * Plus, just because their armor looks the same does not mean they were from the same corps. Cmdr. J. Nebulax 20:11, 17 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * You seem to forget that the 501st were grown on coruscant under direct command from palpatine, while Gree's 9th assault corps were led by luminara and gree. Palpatine had his own agenda for the 501st, and I'm sure he didn't want others messing with them--Xilentshadow900 20:13, 17 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * Exactly. Cmdr. J. Nebulax 20:15, 17 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * Some have stated, the official site's databank among them, that the 501st was born and raised on Coruscant, while others, this article among them, maintains that the 501st was founded after the Battle of Jabiim, which I believe to be incorrect, and then transferred to Coruscant to supplement Cmdr. Thire's troops. Furthermore, Nebulax, armor coloration does play a more significant role than you seem to think it does. Markings identify parent division (a corps or sector army), while coloration denotes detachment (a legion or regiment). For example, a clone troop of the 9th Assault Corps could be identified as such by his markings, while the marking's coloration, grey, would identify him as a member of the 41st Elite Legion. Lastly, it makes perfect for the 501st to be tied to a parent division. If Palpatine wanted to keep the 501st's doings secret, he wouldn't attract unwanted attention to it by making it it's own independent entity. -- AdmThrawn --
 * Well, AdmThrawn, they were created after the Battle of Jabiim and were trained on Coruscant. And, they were independent from the other units of clone troopers. If anything, it was the shock troopers and the 501st in one larger unit. Cmdr. J. Nebulax 20:27, 17 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * The 501st was not a mixed and matched group of soldiers plucked from other division and put into this newly-created one. The 501st began just as every other division in the GAR did, aside from being stationed on Coruscant and other Core worlds. When one says, "the 501st was created after Jabiim," I take it to mean that the 501st gained its "elite" status as Palpatine's personal division due to its stellar performances in the early months of the Clone Wars. -- AdmThrawn --
 * What Insider 84 says: "Some of these newer clones were transferred to secret facilities on coruscant a year or so after the battle of Geonosis, accompanied by Kaminoan technicians, in case there were further attacks on Kamino. These clones were raised and trained to become Palpatine's elite shock troopers and 501st legion." Databank: "Like the red-emblazoned soldiers that made up the ranks of Palpatine's elite shock troopers, the 501st underwent training and conditioning not on distant Kamino, but in a top-secret facility on Coruscant known only to select members of Palpatine's command staff. It was shortly after the Battle of Jabiim, when the threat to Coruscant seemed all the more real, that the 501st were based out of the capital." --Xilentshadow900 20:43, 17 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * Thank you for those quotes, Xilentshadow. Cmdr. J. Nebulax 20:49, 17 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * Now, Correct me if I'm wrong. These quotes are telling me that the 501st were created on Kamino, were brought to coruscant for elite training, were formed as a unit on coruscant, but then based out of the capital after the battle of Jabiim. That's correct, isn't it?--Xilentshadow900 20:52, 17 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * Yes, completely correct. Cmdr. J. Nebulax 21:00, 17 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * "It was shortly after the Battle of Jabiim, when the threat to Coruscant seemed all the more real, that the 501st were based out of the capital." That is, the 501st was rotated back to Coruscant and the Core as the threat of an attack on the capital increased. Once more, the fact that they were raised on Coruscant does not dispel the idea that they could've been a part of a larger division. Aside from the last part, I'm trying to figure out where we disagree. You two need to back the hell off. -- AdmThrawn --
 * And what markings are you talking about? All plain white clone trooper armor looks the same. --Xilentshadow900 21:12, 17 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * What markings am I talking about. How's about the markings seen on every single clone trooper in Revenge of the Sith. How 'bout those markings? Granted, while some divisions sported coloration and markings as they made the transition to phase II armor, most continued to don stark-white armor. In my opinion, special divisions (such as the 212th Attack Battalion) received special markings. -- AdmThrawn --
 * You know what, AdmThrawn, you need to back the hell off. Cmdr. J. Nebulax 21:18, 17 Nov 2005 (UTC)

Happy to oblige. As I am unable to take screenshots of my Revenge of the Sith DVD, I am unable to provide proof of their presence above Coruscant. However, I'm sure you have the DVD. You can find it yourself. The clone troops aboard the Star Destroyer firing on the Invisible Hand. 41st Elite Legion. -- AdmThrawn -- 2005 (UTC)
 * "For example, a clone troop of the 9th Assault Corps could be identified as such by his markings..." "What markings am I talking about. How's about the markings seen on every single clone trooper in Revenge of the Sith. How 'bout those markings?" Those two sentences seem to contradict one another. Let it go man...--Xilentshadow900 21:20, 17 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * First sentence, I was referring to specific markings, in this case those of a 9th Assault Corps trooper. Second sentence, I was referring to armor markings in general. Should I have used a different word as not to confuse you? -- AdmThrawn --
 * Actually, It would make understanding you a whole lot easier. And when I say "what markings," I mean, like, stripes, cuts in the armor, what? I honestly want to know, and to know where you got that information.--Xilentshadow900 21:26, 17 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * I guess you want to know what a 9th Assault Corps trooper looks like. I have no idea. Nor do I need to. I was merely using it as an example. I could've use any division, real or ficticious, as an example. -- AdmThrawn --
 * "Once more, the troopers whom we see during the opening Battle of Coruscant sequence, the ones aboard the exploding Star Destroyer, all sported 41st Elite Legion markings." tell me what markings these are, then. I honestly want to know.--Xilentshadow900 21:33, 17 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a271/Adm_Thrawn/41.jpg.
 * Are you talking about the grey coloration on the shoulderpads and shinguards?--Xilentshadow900 21:42, 17 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * What did you fall on your head as a child? YES! The markings I am referring to are the markings...I am referring to. The grey ones. The only ones...on there. Gree's 41st Elite Legion. Skies above Coruscant. How many times am I going to have to say this before you get it? -- AdmThrawn --
 * Now, have you considered that all regular white clone troopers had the same armor?--Xilentshadow900 21:47, 17 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * The same armor markings? If so, that's a laughable notion. Ryan Kaufman himself, if you even know who that is, said to me, personally, at the theforce.net forums, that the grey clone troops we see in RotS were the same clone troops, the 41st Elite Legion, that we later saw on Kashyyyk. -- AdmThrawn --
 * So, even if the 41st elite were at the battle of coruscant, that does nothing to show that the 501st were part of the 9th assault corps. Either way, this is a dead argument. Please share your spectacular revelations elsewhere.--Xilentshadow900 22:02, 17 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * I simply put forth a likely possibility. If you disagree with it. Well, that's one man's opinion. -- AdmThrawn --
 * Well, this "likely possibility" of yours has no proof. So, why'd you even bother stating your opinion? Cmdr. J. Nebulax 23:22, 17 Nov

Praji
As most, if not all, of the stormtroopers we see during the original trilogy were members of the 501st Legion, is it unreasonable to assume that their leader was Cmdr. Praji? Praji, as you may or may not know, was the man in the black uniform we see talking to Vader we see aboard the Tantive IV in ANH. The stormtroopers whom we see storm the Tantive IV have been confirmed to be 501st troops by Battlefront II. Praji was also the stormtrooper with the pauldron we see scouring the Tatooine desert. "Look, sir, droids!" The guy he was talking to was Praji. This has been confirmed by the original trilogy's visual dictionary. Additionally, as the 501st was the division that spearheaded the assault on Echo Base, and as Praji is said by a couple of sources to have been on Hoth during the invasion (but not officially confirmed), I think there is a strong possibility that Praji is indeed the 501st's commander, like Appo was before his death on Kashyyyk. Before you get on my case, Nebulax and Xilent, about how I'm wasting your precious, precious time because this hasn't been confirmed by the likes George Lucas himself, I'm just putting it out there. I'm going to try to get in contact with either Karen Traviss or Ryan Kaufman via either the www.theforce.net forums or the www.starwars.com forums in an effort to get this validated. Neither of them are that hard to get in contact with, and both of them are more than willing to answer fan's questions. -- AdmThrawn -- Finally I hear from someone other than the two of them. Not only has the 501st's presence in the OT been confirmed, it makes perfect sense (which, as you've made clear, you don't particularly like). The 501st was Vader's personal division. It went with him everywhere. It was also arguably the best, thus, would've been given the most important missions (the seizure of the Tantive IV, the assault on the Yavin IV base, the capture of Cloud City, etc.). -- AdmThrawn --
 * Well, you can't just guess this stuff, you need hard-core proof that Praji was the 501st's leader after Appo. Cmdr. J. Nebulax
 * I didnt know that most of the stormtroopers we see in the originals were the 501st... And personally (personally), I think that's (the 501st thing, not praji) retarted. people need to stop screwing around with my favorite movies.--Xilentshadow900 03:57, 20 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * And seriously, when was the 501st invented anyway? I doubt GL had every trooper in the Original Trilogy as a member of the 501st. Cmdr. J. Nebulax 13:27, 20 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * When people started "thanking" the fan organization.--Xilentshadow900 13:55, 20 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * But where did "501st Legion" come from? Cmdr. J. Nebulax 14:30, 20 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * It was first used as part of the canon in Survivor's Quest, and later cropped up in RotS material. And whatever your personal opinion on this, it's now official that most of the stormtroopers seen in the OT are part of the 501st (as per Battlefront II and the Databank). And really, what does it matter that the legion has a name? Does it ruin the movies in any way to have the 501st in the OT? - Kwenn
 * Well, you do know that what you're saying now has nothing to do about Praji. Cmdr. J. Nebulax 22:15, 21 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * Well, neither does, "quit ruining my movies with you and your devil numbers!" -- AdmThrawn --
 * What the&mdash;? Cmdr. J. Nebulax 21:33, 22 Nov 2005 (UTC)

Just where is it stated that the 501st was present on Endor?
 * From what I can tell, nowhere. While it makes absolutely perfect sense (as they were the Empire's best and Vader's favorite), it has yet to be confirmed by any official channels. All discussions of the 501st end at the Battle of Hoth aside from this one. -- AdmThrawn --

Ergh, I don't think Battlefront II can be considered a valid source unless all of it is in the Star Wars databank. nowhere does it say that the snowtroopers on hoth were the 501st, nor the stormtroopers on the tantive IV. --Xilentshadow900 04:39, 25 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * Ever hear of "retcon"? Star Wars is imfamous for the amount of times things have been retconned. Can't we all just accept this as such and move on?TIEPilot051999 05:05, 25 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * Here we go again. Look, Xilent, if you opt to disregard Battlefront II as source material, go right ahead. Don't expect everyone else to, though. The 501st was Vader's personal division. That is, where Vader went, the 501st went. "Vader's Fist" means just that. The 501st was with him at the Temple. On the Tantive IV. At Tatooine. On the Death Star. At Yavin IV. At Bespin. At Hoth. Probably at Endor. Why are you so hostile to this idea? Because it's mine? -- AdmThrawn --
 * Well, just because the 501st Legion was Vader's personal division does not mean they were at all of those battles. So far, I have not seen any official source, other than Battlefront II, which is known to have gone against canon. Admiral J. Nebulax 12:51, 25 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * Exactly. Dark troopers weren't on the death star. Clone commanders weren't galactic marines. ARC troopers weren't used as anti-vehicle units. Battlefront II goes against the canon all the time. and besides, the stormtroopers on the death star, and the stormtroopers on Darth Vader's personal ship were probably two different groups. The 501st isn't every trooper in the movie. --Xilentshadow900 14:34, 25 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * And AdmThrawn, everything that you say is true has NO official source behind it (ex. Praji took command after Appo, the 501st was in every battle in the Original Trilogy, etc.). Admiral J. Nebulax 14:39, 25 Nov 2005 (UTC)

Stuff like Darktroopers on the Death Star and Clone-snowtroopers being commanders and such are Game Machanics and are NOT canon. They are apocrypha. However, the storyline and plot of all games are within continuity.

THe Guided Storyline of Battlefront II (the Campaign mode which follows the 501st) is canon unless there is a blatant contradiction between it, and a higher source. The Instant Action and Galactic Conquest modes are not plot driven, and not canon. "******Unless I'm wrong, in one of the missions in-game, you attack yavin after the death star blows up. I'm pretty sure thats called the First Battle of Yaving Base. and I'm pretty sure that's part of the continuity.--Xilentshadow900 00:25, 1 Nov 2005 (UTC)" -- AdmThrawn --
 * Thank you, Jerrycurl. The Revenge of the Sith video game is considered canon, and has spawned numerous references and articles within this very site. Why not [i]Battlefront II[/i]? And yes, just because the 501st was Vader's personal division of troops does mean that the troops...with Vader...were 501st troops. Once more, during a scene from the game, the announcer states that after the destruction of the first Death Star, the 501st was sent with Vader on his search for the Death Star plans. Why is Vader on the Tantive IV? He's looking for the plans. Why is Vader on Bespin? Looking the the plans, that's why.