Talk:Form VI/Legends

Niman--there seem to be two separate Nimans:

1) Form VI (most of this article)--one lightsabre, Coleman style 2) Jer'krai (the last paragraph)--two lightsabres, Boc Aseca style

Why was the GIF image removed?
I like that animated GIF. It allows people to actually see Form VI being used, and, if you ask me, it enhances the article, since with it, people can see a demostration of this Form in action. In my oppinion, I think all the Lightsaber Form articles should have such a GIF so that people can actually see each form in action, rather than just looking at boring, non-animated pictures. Personally, I think the articles for the other Forms would be far better if you could actually see each form being used (by adding animated GIF images). But hey, what do I know, right? I'm just a Frelling anon. But then again, Starkeiller, an actual registered user, didn't seem to mind having a GIF on this article, since he added a link to Jango Fett in the caption for that GIF...151.203.185.180 18:31, 9 Dec 2005 (UTC)
 * We aren't racists here, anon. Anons are sometimes treated badly because it's anons that harass the site, the kriffin' vandals. I agree with Frelling Anon (it's a nice nick). The GIF image added to the article. --Master Starkeiller 19:33, 9 Dec 2005 (UTC)
 * The articles on lightsaber combat may prosper better with GIFs, but the current one doesn't seem to present any benefits to the article. It just shows Trebor getting shot. If anything, it appears to make Niman look like a bad lightsaber choice. -- SFH 19:54, 9 Dec 2005 (UTC)
 * I think it demonstrates the flaws of Niman, after all, the article itself does say "...Form VI practitioner Coleman Trebor, whose technique could not defend against Jango Fett's masterfully placed blaster shots...". But if someone can get a GIF that shows a better example of Niman, then thats good too..151.203.185.180 20:02, 9 Dec 2005 (UTC)
 * A decision was made not to use the animated GIFs, as they are distracting and cheesy. It should be removed. QuentinGeorge 20:58, 9 Dec 2005 (UTC)
 * Who made that decision? I see two registered users right here who think it's a good idea, and two anonymous users, including myself, who think it's a good idea. The Lightsaber Combat pages would greatly benefit from having animations on them. That way, people can actually watch Windu using Vaapad, instead of simply looking at a still picture. Or watch Yoda demonstrate his mastery of Ataru, etc. It would be great to actually watch the different lightsaber forms in action using animated gifs, and would improve the pages by actually letting people watch examples of what the pages are describing. 70.17.151.54 22:29, 9 Dec 2005 (UTC)
 * Well, QuentinGeorge is an admin, so he and the rest of the admins have the final say. -- SFH 22:31, 9 Dec 2005 (UTC)
 * The decision was made a while back not to use animated gifs as they were far too distracting and didn't suit the encyclopedia. QuentinGeorge 22:41, 9 Dec 2005 (UTC)
 * Personally, I think that gifs would suit the Lightsaber Forms pages perfectly(for all of the above reasons). How about just using gifs to improve the pages for the lightsaber forms, and not using them anywhere else? 70.17.151.54 22:56, 9 Dec 2005 (UTC)
 * Well, I'm going to put in my two cents, since I was the one that actually removed the GIF. The reason I removed it was because last time a user (Cato Neimoidia in particular) uploaded GIFs like that to use in articles, all of them were quickly removed. I'm not as seasoned as some of the Wookieepedians around here, but I definitely agree with Quentin that the GIFs are distracting and detract from the actual encyclopedic nature of this website. If some of you do feel that they have some value to the topic they display, I would recommend linking to a separate site that has them. I just feel that they have no place within the articles themselves. But I'll leave the actual decisions regarding this topic to the Admins and more established members of this community. That's all I have to say.--Knightfall 23:10, 9 Dec 2005 (UTC)
 * If you want, we can put up a discussion on the Community Portal with regards to the use of animated GIFs. QuentinGeorge 23:15, 9 Dec 2005 (UTC)
 * Let's do that! - TopAce 17:53, 10 Dec 2005 (UTC)

Lus-ma?
Count Dooku mentions it in Labyrinth of Evil; what form is it?
 * A currently unknown move / form / style. And please kindly sign your post, thank you. Darth Kevinmhk 15:22, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Padawan Lumis Etima

 * Alright, either someone source "Lumis Etima used Form VI", or else we should remove him / her from the article. Thx. Darth Kevinmhk 15:21, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
 * His article says "he did use Niman," which pretty clearly says he was a Niman practitioner, if Coleman is to be removed, having him instead of Coleman would be a good choice (assuming there is a source which says he used Niman) - TopAce 10:24, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I disagree, his article has no source at all. I doubt it is canon. Darth Kevinmhk 03:30, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Weak style?
Is it just me, or did anyone else notice that the way this article is written suggests that Niman is a weak form? Where does that come from that it was the standard style anyway? If it was the most common, it is rather ironical that we only know about ONE user, while we know more users about Makashi, which was the "rarest" of all standard forms? - TopAce 21:23, 20 March 2006 (UTC)


 * The public view Form VI as weak because all Form VI users during the battle of Geonosis died. 100%, no survivors. Source: Insider 62. We can only confirm one user because Star Wars stories often focus on powerful main characters :) Darth Kevinmhk 03:23, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

In KOTOR2 it's definitely deemed a strong style (and in the game it actually proves to be strong). My theory for the failure of the practitioners in the arena is as follows. We can assume that the survivors were practitioners of Soresu, Ataru, and Djem So, because these are the most frequently mentioned styles which are favored by Jedi of the time (except for Mace Windu of course). Soresu and Djem So focus intensively on the deflection of blaster bolts, and Ataru may have proven effective against the 'dull' droids because of its swiftness, unpredictable Force Jumps and quick evasive movements. Form VI failed because it didn't focus so intensively on blaster bolt deflections, and the battle in the arena can be considered an extremely 'blaster-dense' situation, in which only the above mentioned forms could prevail, for the reasons that I have already written. This is just a theory though. --Domlith 23:38, 3 June 2006 (UTC)


 * "The public view Form VI as weak because all Form VI users during the battle of Geonosis died. 100%, no survivors" It wasn't just the public view. Insider 62 says that Jedi who use other forms viewed Form VI as being "Insufficiently demanding", which to me means the same as saying that Form VI is weak. 70.17.145.93 00:00, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I disagree. If a Form VI users work extra hard to keep training - not spending time to learn politics, for eg - i believe they can redeem Form VI's reputation. Apart from the style, Insider implies VI user dont train hard/long too, so I think we cant just blame the style itself. Darth Kevinmhk 04:41, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I suppose your right. I actually like the idea of Hybrid Martial Arts, so the idea that Form VI is a hybrid of all the other forms sounds really cool to me, as long as it is an effective form, which I suppose it could be if one trained hard enough. 70.17.145.93 05:16, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
 * is it possible that we are viewing the form the wrong way? yes 100% died, but they were Jedi who were perhaps political etc. If a Jedi mastered this form that they would have the best blend of the mixed forms, the defensive properties of III the aggresivness of Ataru etc. Jedi Dude
 * Not only Form VI practitioners died during the Battle of Geonosis, that's the wrong way we are viewing it. Do not forget that the Jedi were overwhelmed during the battle, even for Soresu or Djem So standards. Also do not forget that Jedi during the Jedi Civil War era were more centered around combat, most having fought in the Mandalorian Wars previously. Jedi around the time of the Clone Wars were not as experienced combatants, the Geonosis Arena battle was something the Jedi were not prepared against. The Niman could be a good form, but not in a situation when you are overwhelmed at least ten to one.- TopAce 12:43, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
 * My opinion is simple: Niman can be a good form, if and only if the user treat it like other forms, and train it as hard and as long as other users of other forms. But as the Insider implies that the Niman course is a short one, it is the Jedi teachers' fault instead of the style's fault, since it is the instructor who made the course that way. Darth Kevinmhk 13:03, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

--Darthless 01:18, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
 * well then this article is in need of major chnages, because otherwise the article gives the impression that this is a weak style, this needs change. Jedi Dude
 * I dont think so, we dont have enough canonical facts to prove that Niman is really as gd as other forms even if they train hard. Darth Kevinmhk 13:04, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
 * but do we have enough evidence to say that it is definalty weaker than the other forms? don't say Geonosis...Jedi Dude
 * Review both this article and the Insider article, and I just made some changes. See if it fits. Darth Kevinmhk 13:11, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Better - TopAce 13:12, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I have a problem: Only around 200 Jedi were dispatched to Geonosis, so a lot of others were still in the other parts of the galaxy. Within these suvivors, were there still any Form VI users?
 * All the confirmed users are already listed in the article. Darth Kevinmhk 02:15, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Don't you think its funny...
How the form is the way of the rancor, but the form is actionally about diplomecy etc. you know what i mean? Jedi Dude

Niman is Old English
From wiktionary:

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/niman

Do you think there is a connection between the two or this is just a coincidence? - TopAce 11:49, 4 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Thz for the notice. The only relation I could think of is Star Wars Niman could mean a certain god in some area, which suits the "Old" theme a little bit... Darth Kevinmhk 11:59, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Coleman Trebor

 * Alright, here comes the blast: There is NO, repeat, No source which really / directly state Coleman Trebor is a Form VI user. So unless someone provide a source, I guess we would have to remove the only (presumed) user of Niman from the article. Darth Kevinmhk 13:18, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Where did you look? - TopAce 14:35, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Sources looked: Clone Wars Novels, EP2 & 3 Novels, EP2 & 3 Visual Dict, Fightsaber article, Ultimate Visual Guide, New Essential Guide to Characters, Power of the Jedi Sourcebook, Hero's Guide, OS Databanks... Feel free to provide if you indeed find a source which states Coleman is a Form VI user! Darth Kevinmhk 16:13, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
 * So, who thinks he should be removed? - TopAce 10:22, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Problem solved: Coleman was removed due to lack of source, Cin Drallig was added due to new source. Insider 87: "he (Cin) taught the basics of lightsaber combat forms one through six to thousands of students". Woo! Cin knew Forms I to VI! Powerful! Darth Kevinmhk 14:17, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Cin used it?
since when? Jedi Dude 23:02, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Cin learned Forms I, II, III, IV, V, VI; stated by Insider article Order 66: Destroy All Jedi. Darth Kevinmhk 03:59, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Niman in Kotor2

 * As Wookieepedia now considers the official guide of KOTOR2 to be a canonical source, thus we have Zez-Kai Ell as Ataru master, Vrook Lamar as Shien master, and Karvar as Juyo master. I haven't played the game or own the guide, so does anyone know who was the Form VI: Niman master in KOTOR2 so that his/her name can be added in this pathetic little list? Darth Kevinmhk 09:17, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Niman is only taught to the Exile if she is a Jedi Consular/Master, so keeping Niman out of canonical KotOR suggests that the Exile was indeed a Jedi Guardian. This hasn't answered your question, though. :) - TopAce 09:19, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I dont quite understand, you mean the official game guide did not mention who could teach the Exile Niman? Darth Kevinmhk 09:23, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Oh and by the way TopAce, do you know the game / guide mention any Jedi Master being Makashi or Soresu users? Darth Kevinmhk 09:25, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I was talking about the game, not the guide. In the game, you can have a prestige class called the Jedi Master, which is kind of an advanced Jedi Consular. If you are a Jedi Consular or it's prestige class of Jedi Master, it's not Juyo that you learn from the last of the Masters that you find, but Niman. As far as I gathered from what was said in the game guide, it doesn't mention that the Exile has learned Niman. If the Exile is a Jedi Guardian (or its prestige class of Jedi Weaponmaster) or a Jedi Sentinel (or its prestige class of Jedi Watchman), then its Juyo that the last of the Masters teaches her, not Niman. This suggests that the Exile wasn't a Jedi Consular or its prestige counterpart, the Jedi Master. Shii-Cho, Makashi, and Soresu are learned as you level up, whichever class you are, whatever order you visit planets. It's only dumb gameplay mechanism. As for the other Masters using/practicing Soresu and Makashi, I cannot answer your question. - TopAce 10:09, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Consular or Sentinel?
And one question, with all this talk about the strategy guide... does it even HAVE a walkthrough section for if you want to play as a Consular character? It'd be very sad if the guide doesn't even mention the potential to learn the Force forms. -BaronGrackle 18:09, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Alright, so is it Consular who would learn Niman, or Sentinel? TopAce? Darth Kevinmhk 15:13, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
 * It must have just been typos earlier; it's Sentinel. I've played two games: Light Sentinel/Watchman Male, and Dark Consular/Sithlord Female. Both learned the following forms: Shii-cho, Makashi, Soresu, and Force Channel. My Watchman learned from the masters: Ataru, Shien, and Niman. My Sithlord learned: Force Potency, Force Affinity, and Force Mastery. In essence, the Shien form (jack-of-all-trades) seems almost made for a Sentinel/Watchman. Juyo is great for melee but weak against Force users, more characteristic of a Guardian.
 * I was wrong. Rarely do I admit it, only when I have nothing for my defense. A Consular/Jedi Master is taught one of the Force forms. My bad. - TopAce 19:18, 2 September 2006 (UTC)