Talk:Lightsaber combat/Legends

Material from Lightsaber

 * I took this from lightsaber. --GenkiNeko 11:01, 14 May 2005 (UTC)
 * So you're saying that you would like the explanations in the article to include any additionaly information given here? &mdash;qrc 18:47, 15 May 2005 (UTC)
 * I think he meant to state that he deleted the following lengthy paragraphs from the lightsaber article, but preserved them here. Sadly, the sources are missing - that would clear up many questions of this article. Much of the following appears to be original research, though. &mdash;Gen.d 10:59, 22 May 2005 (UTC)


 * There are too many misinformation in the following sections, I suggest we lock them away. Darth Kevinmhk 02:26, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Form I
(Kit Fisto,Evan Piell) When lightsabers first replaced the older, traditional swords of metal the first Form was created. Known as Shii-Cho, it is based on ancient sword-fighting traditions and the basic principles of blade combat remain much the same. The basics of attack, parry, body target zones, and the practice drills called velocities are all here. Sometimes called the ideal form, Form I used horizontal side-swipes and parries made with the blade of the lightsaber held upright to push the point of an enemy's blade away during a side-to-side attack. If the attack is a downward slash aimed at the head, Form I simply reversed the motion, with a horizontally-held lightsaber being moved up and down to deflect a blow. Younglings, the Jedi initiate rank, first learn Form I before they begin a Padawan apprenticeship with a master. Quite basic, but deceptively simple--a true master would be able to overcome an opponent who looks down on the style with relative ease, since mastery of beginners' techniques often proves to be more complex, subtle, and useful than more flashier styles. Form I is known for its mindset, where its user releases oneself into the force to become faster, wilder, more agressive, and more random. This agressive style is dangerous to the spirit in ways only Form VII can match. Shii-Cho is also known for the agility and improvisation its masters show. There is also a focus on disarming an opponent. Since Form II was created to answer the weaknesses of Form I, Form II users are more likely to defeat Form I. Forms IV and VII are two other styles Shii-Cho is ill-equiped to defeat, with their unconventional tactics.Never heard of this subform, someone please site a reference!!! (the subform of I is Jun-Sai:Kit Fisto)


 * little Piell uses form I? wouldn't the little guy be more suited towards form IV? aere we not believing in citations or sources? who made up these subforms?--Black Jack Scarron 21:37, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Form II
(Dooku, Tholme) The ultimate refinement of lightsaber-to-lightsaber combat became Form II, advancing the precision of blade manipulation to its finest possible degree and producing the greatest dueling masters the galaxy has ever seen. Known as Makashi, this ancient Jedi Knight lightsaber combat technique was developed when pikes and staves were more common in the galaxy. Essentially, lightsaber fencing--thrust, parry, riposte, backward and forward footwork--whereas all the others are some type of swordsmanship, utilizing slashing and cutting. Form II emphasized fluid motion and anticipation of a weapon being swung at its target, allowing the Jedi to attack and defend with minimal effort. In the time near the Clone Wars, the Jedi Order seldom practices this technique. There is, if at all, so little lightsaber-to-lightsaber combat involved in a Jedi's life that Jedi have found it not practical. Even with the resurgence of the Sith, confrontation of an enemy with a lightsaber is an exceedingly rare prospect for a Jedi, so they continue to focus on more practical Forms. Sith expecting to battle lightsaber-wielding Jedi, however, find Form II a powerful technique. It's not as good against ranged weaponry, though a modern master of it can be at least as good against ranged weapons as most other Jedi, but nearly unbeatable against another lightsaber. This form is so precise and swift that a master can easily avoid being disarmed, and disarm an opponent without damaging an opponent's weapon if he/she so chooses. The mindset here is calm and under control, allowing for better technique and strategy. Makashi masters are generally at ease even in life threatening situations, but this results in a lack of adrenaline seen in the other forms. Force users(especially Darksiders) who practice this form unkowningly weaken themselves if they give into Form II's mindset, since they can no longer give the force complete control(or for Darksiders, their empowering anger). Form II's greatest weakness is its lack of power, a master of the Form V variants Rolling Boulder and Spiraling Hammer are a serious threat. However, all other forms(besides Form IV) are at a disadvantage to Form II in lightsaber combat. The greatest flaw of those who consider themslves fencers rather than swordfighters is the incredible arrogance that fencing in Makashi is the only true form of "fencing" and that it is superior to all other forms(in fact the dominance of Makashi comes mostly from its practitioners being used to other styles wheras other forms are not used to dealing with Makashi masters). The Form I variant Slashing Dragon has been known to produce masters who can demolish the masters of Form II, though Cin Drallig never accomplished this because of his own arrogance. Being the only true master of Slashing Dragon, Cin Drallig was a great swordsman but focused too much on flashy, impractical moves found in Kai-Kan(referring to the drill practice, not the lightsaber form). Self taught swordsmen have an advantage over traditionalists, but only if they are realistic. [Never heard of this subform, someone please site a reference!!!( the subform of II is Chodan:Ki-Adi-Mundi)]

Form III
(Obi-Wan:+3 years after Ep.I and on, Plo Koon,) Known as Soresu, Form III was developed by the Jedi Knights, after blaster weapons became the normal weapon of choice among criminals and underworld beings. Form III thus arose from "laserblast" deflection training. Over the centuries it has transcended this origin to become a highly refined expression of non-aggressive Jedi philosophy. Form III uses tight, efficient moves, leaving no target areas exposed compared to the relatively open style of some of the other Forms. Unlike Form II combat, which was developed to work against another lightsaber, Form III is most effective in anticipating and deflecting blaster fire. It stresses quick reflexes and fast positional transition, in order to overcome the rapidity with which a blaster can be fired. As the supreme defensive style, true Form III masters are believed almost invincible. But as a side effect, this Form isn't useful in attack, making the precise and aggressive, but restained Form II a problem for Form III, as well as the unpredictably lethal Forms I and VII. This simple form is known for its blinding defensive velocities, and has a unique mindset in which the user abandons their own identity,and becomes one in spirit with the Force. This state allows for incredible reflexes, and an unerring ability to percieve the present situation and take the best course of acton.Subform of Form III:Niman(Ep.3 Obi-Wan, Oppp Rancisis)

Form IV
(Yoda, Qui-Gon) Form IV is the most acrobatic Form ever developed. Known as Ataru, this was one of the more recent lightsaber combat techniques, developed by the Jedi Knights during the last decades of the Old Republic. In this Form the Jedi uses all of the ways in which the Force helps them go beyond what is physically possible, heavily emphasizing Jedi abilities to run, jump, and spin in phenomenal ways by using the Force to outmaneuver and overwhelm an opponent from multiple angles. In order to achieve the acrobatic prowess, amazing reflexes and physical punch of this form, a Jedi focuses on the Force, letting it flow deeply throughout their entire physicality, even allowing them to overcome the limitations of old age. This form of lightsaber combat is astonishing to watch, filled with elaborate moves in the center of which a Jedi may be all but a blur. The Form has found a niche among the eager Padawan learners of the time, who believed that the Jedi needed to become more involved in rooting out crime and evil and eradicating it. Its defenses are rather weak, however, and Forms V and VII are well adapted to take advantage of that. Form II v.s. Form IV presents a paradox, Makashi fencing tactics aren't useful against an opponent who is everywhere, but Ataru acrobatics can't be easily used against an opponent who keeps you from staying in the same place long enough to launch a productive assault. This contest would be decided by mastery of one's own form, knowledge of the opponents, and any number of other factors.Never heard of this subform, someone please site a reference!!!(subform of IV is Sokan:Palpatine,Yaddle)

Form V
(Anakin:+7 years after Ep.I and on, Saesse Tiin) Known as Djem So, Form V is known for its power. It was developed by Form III practitioners that preferred a more offensive angle and felt that while the defensive nature of Form III proved to be undefeatable it could not overcome the enemy and only dangerously prolonged combat. Form V focuses on strength and lightsaber counterattack moves. This Form maintains its existence through having sufficient defensive skills, as derived from Form III, but channeling defense into offense. It is commonly cited as an example that while Form III combatants effortlessly deflect blaster bolts, Form V practitioners excel at redirecting the bolt towards the opponent. This at the same time defends the user and efficiently injures the enemy. Practitioners skirt the Dark Side due to the aggressive basis of the style. To many Jedi Form V represents the philosophy of "peace through superior firepower", and might seem a worthy discipline, prepared for any threat. Others debated the philosophy of Form V, claiming that it directs inappropriate focus on hurting another being. The sheer physical power of this form makes it viciously overwhelming, but when it comes to lethal against lethal, Form V simply can't beat Form VII. Additionally, Form III's nigh invincible defenses totally negate Form V's advantage, while Form V gets sloppy when faced with an impenetrable form. The basics of Form I also present a challenge to Djem So practitioners. Form II practitioners have a clear advantage over Form V stylists until the stylist in question figure out that the variation forms Rolling Boulder(with a more centered defense), and Spiraling Hammer(with its direct transitions from one move to another, its powerful footwork, and its particular emphasis on never ceasing attacks) were created just for the purpose of eliminating the weaknesses Form II takes advantage of.(subform of V is Shien: Adi Gallia)

Form VI
(Yarael Poof, Coleman Trebor) Known as Lus-Ma, this Form balances the emphases of other Forms with overall moderation, in keeping with the Jedi quest to achieve true harmony and justice without resorting to the rule of power. At the beginning of the Clone Wars, Form VI is the current standard for Jedi. It is considered the "diplomat's Form" because it is less intensive in its demands than the other disciplines, allowing Jedi to spend more time developing their knowledge of political strategy and negotiation - along with their own perceptions - to reach a peaceful decision with minimal bloodshed. Practitioners also learn to use body language and short, soothing words, phrases, and sounds to use in battle as an additional way of perhaps talking an opponent out of a fight after weapons have been drawn. In practice, Form VI is a combination of Forms I, III, IV, and V, emphasizing the use of those techniques in overall moderation. Young Jedi spend their first few years studying Form I and then a year or two with each additional Form before completing their training. By comparison, a Form VI master will spend at least ten years studying only that Form after completing the basic Form I training. Form VI well suits the modern Jedi's role in the galaxy, in which a Knight overly trained in martial combat might be at a loss to resolve a complex political conflict between star systems. However, full masters of other Forms sometimes consider Form VI to be too demanding of the Jedi's time in regards to its benefits on the battlefield. However, a scant few masters of this form wield so much skill in the style that almost no one can overcome them. The reason for this discrepancy is that most practitioners are so pacifistic that they are masters of this form only in name. When executed properly, the sudden, almost collapsing-like flow movemnts allow for changes in angle and positioning of the two combatants that completely negates any attack advantages created by using more aggressive styles(thus, flowing thrusts that always reosition themselves around the the mid-chest area are ideal). This drastic change in position leads to hesitancy in the opponent that a true master can either through more combat manipulation, psychological manipulation with words, body language, and gestures, or through the Force expand upon until the opponent is to unsure of themselves to continue fighting or until their doubts unfocus them enough for the master to end the fight as non-violently as possible.Never heard of this subform, someone please site a reference!!!(subform of VI is Trachata:Eeth Koth)

Form VII
(Juyo:Alta Ranga, Darth Maul; Vaapad: Mace Windu, Depa Billaba, Sora Bulq) Only high-level masters of multiple Forms can achieve and control the ultimate discipline known as Form VII. Still in development as of the time of the Clone Wars since so few Jedi can achieve the necessary mastery to advance the art. Known as Juyo, it is the most difficult and demanding of all forms, but leads to fantastic skill and power. This Form employs bold, direct movements, more open and kinetic than Form V but not so elaborate in appearance as Form IV. Form VII uses wide and open lightsaber moves, combined with Force-assisted jumps and movements. Form VII employed the use of overwhelming power directed through unconnected, staccato swings and movements sometimes seeming like basic, uneducated flailing, coming in no discernible pattern that keep an opponent continually off-guard. But this is also what makes it a lot more difficult to execute, than the linked move sequences of Form IV. This Form requires the intensity of Form V, but uses more energy since that focus is wielded more broadly because of the wider moves. The outward bearing of a Form VII practitioner is one of calm, but the inner pressure is extremely focused, drawing upon a deeper well of emotion than even Form V, yet masters it more fully. The style calls upon the Force to directly and instinctively direct strokes and parries, rather than a set of practiced offensive and defensive maneuvers allowing for more accuracy and explaining the seeming randomness. This form is rather dangerous, when used by untrained and unfocused minds. The deep well of emotions can lead to the release of anger. And trigger temptations towards the Dark Side. Mace Windu's master developed this form and taught it to him. Mace Windu later developed a style completing Juyo, known as Vaapad. This particular style emphasizes skirting the edge of the Dark Side even more than Juyo, and also makes use of an idea that allows a Jedi to redirect all of an opponent's strengths and weaknesses back at them. The calm efficiency of Form II and the Force-powered devastation of Form IV are Form VII's only weaknesses. Long bofore the time of Mace Windu there was an ancient form called Juyo. However, it was considered incomplete at the time. The only person who ever was supposed to have mastered a complete version of this form was a Sith Lord so no Jedi ever mastered it. Apparently the Sith passed down the form since Darth Maul used it. Much later, Mace Windu's master and several other Jedi combat specialists took the ancient form and built on old concepts, changed the shaky parts of the form that had labeled it incomplete, and simplified it so that Jedi trainees could learn the basics of it in combat training. The Council did not immediately recognize the complete form which is the cause of the confusion about Vaapad being the seventh basic form. Only after Mace Windu's creation of Vaapad did the Council realize that Juyo was complete(because Vaapad appeared to the Council as an expansion rather than a completion) and ackowledged it. However, a problem was presented in that after the death of Juyo's creators few Juyo masters remained, making the resposibilty of teaching it fall to Mace Windu and Sora Bulq. Juyo was considered a basic form, wheras Vaapad was a secondary form(subform). It shared this title with Jun-Si, Chodan, Trachata, Sokan(Palpatine, Yaddle), Niman(the Dark Woman,Oppo Rancisis), Shien(Ki-Adi-Mundi, Gate Master Jurokk), and the martial arts/lightsaber form Kai-Kan(which is also the name for martial arts/lightsaber duel reenactments)(Agen Kolar, Iron Hand). Note: Jar-kai is the double lightsaber form, and Shien does not use the backwards grip, there is another unorthodx style that does so, though its users are often Shien stylists as well. Also, Sokan teaches anything but to have a drawn out terrain based duel. There also variaton forms:Rolling Boulder(Vader), Slashing Dragon(Cin Drallig), Flaring Star(Eeth Koth), Spinning Shield(Ep.III/IV Obi-Wan), Spiraling Hammer(Ep.III Anakin), Weaving Serpent(Micah Giett), Lashing Lizard(Grievous' specialty), Fluttering Bird(Dooku), and Shadow Bat(Darth Bane, T'raa Saa).
 * Wait a minute, what's the deal with all the names in ""? Admiral J. Nebulax 20:39, 10 Dec 2005 (UTC)


 * It looks informative but is all of this sourced, just asking? Derek Yoda&#39;s friend 23:50, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Form Names

 * Why is there confusion to the names of the forms? I notice that before, Form V was "Shien / Djem So," but now just "Djem So," and Form VI was once "Niman" but is now&hellip; "Lus-Ma"?  As far as I can tell from the more reliable resources, the correct terms are Form V as having two variations, "Shien" used by Anakin (as read in ROTS novel) and "Djem So" used by Aayla Secura (as read in ROTS Visual Dictionary).  I'm not sure about Form VI, though. &mdash;qrc 15:18, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Ha! ROTS states that Anakin uses Djem So, but Dooku seems suprised despite the fact that Anakin uses the same form on Geonosis, hence the variaton forms.
 * ROTS Novel clearly stated that Anakin mastered BOTH Shien and Djem So, they are both Form V. While Aayla used both Ataru and Djem So. &mdash;Darth Kevinmhk 05:54, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Tsk! The Revenge visual dic. said Aayla used Djem So, but Ataru has never been officially stated anywhere as Aayla's form. And Anakin's true form is Djem So as the ROTS novel clearly stated, it seems likely his EP.II style is Shien. + the original insider magazine that introduced the forms implied that Anakin was not a Form V master, no matter what variations or subforms have been invented since.

Dual-blades?
Should there be a section-added for the dual-bladed form used by Exar Kun and Darth Maul? Thanos6 16:36, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I belive that there should be, but what is the name of there fighting form? --Dylankidwell 01:44, 24 Sep 2005 (UTC)


 * Damned if I know, just that there is one. Thanos6 12:38, 8 Nov 2005 (UTC)


 * I don't know if there's a name for it - and if there is, then I obviously don't know it. I think that either it should be included under 'The unorthodox' or there should be a separate article (like there are for the forms and other styles/methods of lightsaber combat) with a link to it in the 'Other forms of lightsaber combat' section KEJ 13:27, 8 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * The Form VII article says that Darth Maul used a variant of Juyo.


 * From my knowledge, I think that Double-bladed sabers should be just considered a new form. As to the name, hell if I know...
 * Well, you can have a dual-bladed lightsaber and still use one of the known forms. Therefore, it doesn't have to be its own form. Admiral J. Nebulax 22:15, 6 Dec 2005 (UTC)


 * If I'm not wrong, I read from a source that dual-bladed lightsaber combat is similiar to the European Quarterstaff Fighting method. I also read that it was part of Ataru. Could it be that Darth Maul adapted the Ataru style and used it with his lightstaf?
 * Here's my explanation. OK all forms never say that you have to use a dual blade, a single blade, a lightsaber cane, a light whip, a curved hilt etc its just that some forms are more effective with certain syles of lightsabers. But you can do each of the seven true forms with a dual bladed lightsaber, a dual bladed saber allows for more rapid attacks but poor parries. Derek Yoda&#39;s friend 06:32, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Splitting and Out of Universe material
Which information is Out-of-Universe material? Which should be split? I think that only the forms VIII+ should be removed or placed elsewhere. &mdash;qrc 19:54, 6 Jul 2005 (UTC)
 * A simple solution would be to have this article focus on overall combat, mention the forms but include a "See full article..." link. --SparqMan 20:59, 6 Jul 2005 (UTC)

A lightsaber category
Shouldn't we have a lightsaber-related category, or is the Jedi-category enough?

Pictures
Could we get some pictures of the practitioners of the forms actually fighting? All the pictures in the forms are just poses. -- SFH 05:46, 8 Nov 2005 (UTC)

I also suggest that for every form, why not we have a picture showing the stances, the attacks, parries, for that particular style.


 * i don't think those specific pictures exist since the nick gillard didn't use the 7 forms when choregraphing the movie.

Marks of Contact
Choi Mai is considered honorable because cutting off an opponets hand doesn't permanetly damage the opponent? The opponent suffers an amputation! What Sith made up the rules here? -- SFH 21:03, 23 Dec 2005 (UTC)
 * Heheheh! You got a point. But, of course, a hand can be cybernetically repaired, which a life can't. KEJ 16:26, 25 Dec 2005 (UTC)

Why does Dooku's act of cutting off Anakin's arm count as two different MoC? Is there reason why we would need to list it twice since Dooku only cut off Anakin's weapon arm? I would just leave it as cho sun. ImperialBA 12:58, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
 * For that matter, there's the problem of the finish of the ROTS Anakin/Obi-Wan duel being listed as both cho mak and mou kei, and the wound caused to Obi-Wan's leg by Count Dooku in AOTC was referred to as resulting from shiak and shiim. Someone (me, if necessary) needs to go through the definitions and try to clean up the resultant confusion.  Jwebb13 HoloNet[[Image:Oldsith.png|40px]] 04:23, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Animal Names
The forms seem to be described as "Way of the _____" but _____ often tends to be an incredibly exotic animal (such as the Sarlaac, Kryat Dragon, Ysalmari or Vornskyr, pardon my spelling) that most people probably haven't heard of, and don't show up in the known Galaxy until decades after the Battle of Yavin (If people already knew about little lizards that block the Force, don't you think they'd be a bit more popular?). That and Form VI, the Diplomat's Form, seems to be called the way of the Rancor, and the defensive Form III is called the Way of the Mynock? What's the bloody connection? Can someone explain where the original source for these animal names is?

I guess you could say they make a bit of sense.Sarlaac-draws food in, Form I draws opponents into overconfidence. Ysalmari-It makes sense, but i'm not sure why. mynock-feeds on energy,Form III stops blaster bolts(energy particles) in their tracks. Hawk-Bat- supposedly very spastic, energetic creatures(obvious). Krayt Dragon is obvious. Vornskyrs(forgive me for copying) are deadly and unpredictable, just like Juyo. Rancor-Lus-Ma? I guess you could use the info from the Lus-Ma article and say Lus-Ma could be powerful in the hands of a real master. Or you could relate the dumbness of the form to a rancor's stupidity, or maybe rancors are just misunderstood, peaceful creatures. But this is all speculation, I have no idea.
 * I find it odd that there is a Way of the Ysalamiri and a Way of the Vornskr, because both animals do not appear in any Star Wars material until long after these forms were created and mastered. You'd think that if Ysalamiri were well-known enough to have the second-oldest lightsaber combat form named after them, then someone would have figured out how to exploit their natural abilities against Jedi long before Thrawn did. The sources for these "Way of the ___" names should be double-checked. --Briareos 23:11, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
 * No need to double check, they indeed exist in KOTOR2. Although it does look not reasonable, but it is a canonical source. Let's tolerate it. Darth Kevinmhk 02:09, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
 * The animal names actually don't exist in KOTOR2; the titles such as "Perseverance" and "Contention" come from that game. So what is the actual source for these animal correlations? -BaronGrackle 15:10, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

how long does it take for a jedi to become a master of a form?
Just what the title asks. How long does it (usually) take to "Master" a form? How does one know if he's "mastered" a form or not???
 * Depends on how talented you are and which form you choose. Juyo is much harder to master than Niman, for instance. - TopAce 15:34, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Insider #62 described that Jedi usually study a particular form for 10 years after the basic Form I lessons (For Form VI users, they spend much less time). Darth Kevinmhk 13:24, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm not going to give any actual amounts of time, because I don't feel like being critizized today for some reason, but like Topace said, moves can be learned in a day for Shii-Cho but true mastery would take 1-2 years, this is because form I is so simple. But like I said learning moves and true mastery are much different. Derek Yoda&#39;s friend 00:13, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Whups, how annoying, sorry I'm sorry I'm not having my best day I meant that it was true what TopAce said, that different forms take different, amounts of time to master. Derek Yoda&#39;s friend 07:37, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Beyond Form VII
Where in the canon does it specifically state that there is a Form VIII, Form IX and Form X? I can see some authenticity for Form X, but Sokan is probably fanon. I also think that Form IX: Shien is being confused for Form V: Shien. If you notice in KOTOR II, the forms learned are: Shii-Cho (Form I), Makashi (Form II), Soresu (Form III), Ataru (Form IV), Shien (Form V), Niman (Form VI), and Juyo (Form VII)

That seems like the most logical progression of forms and I can't seem to find any written literature where Form IX: Shien was shown in KOTOR II. Ace Venom 01:39, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

It is not fanon. All of them appear in official RPG source material, and you can find said material on google.--Erl 22:43, 20 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Can we get a list of RPG or other sources for Forms VIII through X? SonofNils 16:01, 21 March 2006 (UTC)


 * On the Wizards of the Coast website you can download a web enhancement for Hero's Guide called Lightsaber Forms and the Fallanassi which details the Forms Sokan, Shien and Niman but nowhere does it call any of them Form VIII, IX or X. Grunny 06:25, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Agree to Grunny, I can find those forms, but not the "numbers" of those forms. Darth Kevinmhk 03:04, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I believe that Shien is under also none as a subform under Djem So, if you have gotten this from Komali's Jedi Order, then I'll tell you this Komal's Jedi Order's lists moves for lightsaber Combat but you must consider that most Komali's moves are cannon the names are not, Atarumaster88 got me for that one, also Jar'Kai is classified under Niman. Derek Yoda&#39;s friend 01:17, 11 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Let me clarify if you have doubts I can tell anyone who has the ATOC Visual Dictionary were to find them. Because they are hard to find. Derek Yoda&#39;s friend 22:03, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Content in Wikipedia
Wikipedia's Lightsabre Combat article contains a generous dose of information not included here, including a complete run through of stance positions, although from where, I don't know. Yet, it seems very complete and I wonder if someone should care to look at it and update this Wookieepedia article accordingly.
 * Wikipedia could be weird if it goes to Star Wars, I remember it mentioning that Kit Fisto was a master of Djem So and Ki-Adi the master of Makashi. - TopAce 15:33, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Yup, thus I keep an eye on Wiki's Lightsaber Combat page everyday. Darth Kevinmhk 13:23, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Also Wikipedia says Coleman Trebor is a Niman master, when the only real thing that supports that is he used the opening stance for Niman. Do you think we should fix that? Derek Yoda&#39;s friend 01:28, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

At the same time, they have styles (like Tràkata) that are sourced but do not appear anywhere here. It would be nice to add those, at least. Lord Arcanum 05:55, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Tràkata is fanon. --  I need a name  ( Complain here ) 11:08, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

It's sourced to ROTS and Shattered Empire in the wikipedia article, plus a bunch of examples. Lord Arcanum 01:02, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I assume you mean Shatterpoint rather than Shattered Empire. Having recently finished reading that and the RoTS novelisation, I can assure you that it makes no appearance in either (how Yoda used it against clone troopers on Kashyyyk in the RoTS novelisation is beyond me, since it never shows the planet or anything he does on it). It's never mentioned at all in any of the other "examples" either. --  I need a name  ( Complain here ) 15:36, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Styles of NJO
Somebody deleted the material on the three pace-based styles. Never do that again! They are canonical and stem from official and licensed sources - namely Jedi Knight II: Jedi Outcast and Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy as pointed out in the BTS section. KEJ 10:53, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Actually, that's something I've been wondering about lately: are the Fast, Medium, and Strong styles just in-game titles for three of the seven later-named forms? The game's "Medium" (or "Yellow") style seems to be primarily based on Obi-Wan's fighting style from Episode I, most notably displayed by the jumping head-slash maneuver. "Strong" (or "Red") style is undoubtedly patterned after Qui-Gon Jinn's technique in the same movie-- one look at the ready stance gives it away. "Fast" (or "Blue") style is a bit less recognizable, but it looks more like an Original Trilogy fighting style, like what was seen between Obi-Wan and Vader in Episode IV. It seems like the three game styles should be merged into articles on three of the seven forms... as to WHICH three, I'm not quite sure yet. I think Medium is Shien/Djem So, but I'll come back once I have some more info. SM-716 03:50, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I guess most people would tend to belive the Strong style was based on Vader's style in EP5 - the vertical slash looks exactly the same. But I dont think we should merge it, since no caonical sources suggest they are the same thing. Darth Kevinmhk 04:06, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
 * They should not be merged. As Darth Kevinmhk points out, no canonical source indicates that they are the same; that would be a merger based on conjecture, which is against the policies of Wookieepedia. KEJ 08:13, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Is there anything saying that these are canonical to begin with and not just game mechanics?
 * Game mechanics can be canonical too. The so-called "Force powers" begin as game mechanis in Jedi Knight: Dark Forces. Darth Kevinmhk 02:37, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Sure. Game mechanics are potentially canon but that doesn't make them canon.
 * Do you have data which contradict it? If not, it is generally canon, unless deem otherwise. Darth Kevinmhk 02:11, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Interesting info - is it official, what's the source, and, if official, how can we improve it?
User:70.177.180.93 wrote all this stuff in the article, which is very interesting. However, I'm wondering whether it's reliable and whether it's from official sources (could it be imported from the article in Wikipedia that's discussed avobe?). I removed it from the article, but if it's official/canonical then we should wookify it and put it back, since it would then be very detailed and valuable information.

"Basics of lightsaber combat Unlike most martial arts involving a weapon, lightsaber combat is an art that is utilized before the weapon is ever drawn and ignited. This is due to the philosophy that a Jedi must only draw his weapon as a final recourse. A Jedi must decide on what situations require the application of deadly force, since the lightsaber is one of the deadliest weapons ever constructed.

Training Lightsaber training begins very young, generally before a padawan has been taken by a knight or master as an apprentice. The master swordsmen at the Jedi Temple teach classes of padawans the most basics of lightsabers, such as basic moves and safety.

Training continues after a padawan becomes an apprentice. All Jedi Knights are required to be practitioners of lightsaber combat, and they pass on this knowledge and experience to their apprentices. When the master feels his apprentice is ready, he teaches his apprentice how to construct his first lightsaber as well as oversees the construction process, however, the Jedi Council does have a say in when a Padawan may build a lightsaber. Once the apprentice has finished constructing his lightsaber, the master teaches the padawan about velocities, a staple of Jedi lightsaber training.

Velocities Jedi run endless drills called velocities to practice lightning reflexes and tight control. Velocities are similar in form to fencing, almost always performed with a partner, albeit much faster and trying to create an opening, rather than attack it. During velocities, Jedi learn how to give control over to the Force, as well as use it to extend their perceptions to other degrees of the encounter not allowed by their sensorium.

Advanced Lightsaber Combat Advanced lightsaber combat revolves around the application of the Force during battle. While Jedi use the Force to extend their perceptions and give speed and purpose to their movements, this training allows them to utilize the Force in other, often unexpected, ways.

Master Yoda is a natural practitioner of advanced lightsaber combat. He uses the Force to propel him into blindingly fast jumps and spins during combat. He does this to effectively remove the disadvantage of his small stature when facing taller species in combat.

Stances All strength and propulsion in the martial arts starts in the feet. The stance is important in fighting, as it not only provides balance but also the energy to be placed into an attack. It is the basis upon which all lightsaber combat is placed. It involves footwork, the alignment of the legs and torso, the straightening of the back, and the loosening of the arms so that they can snap into the desired position. Keys to good stances include: allowing the dominant foot to be the main source of propulsion, keeping the knees bent, keeping the back straight, and constant, calm breathing.

The Stance Grid:

Stances in italics are extrapolations based upon the foundations of sword stances. Only those stances seen in the movies and television series are described here.

Jedi Ready The most basic of all Jedi stances - also called "basic neutral" - this one employs stepping back with the dominant foot and drawing the lightsaber so that it is parrying on the dominant side. Weight is distributed evenly between the feet. It is natural that the dominant shoulder be rolled slightly back. The hilt of the lightsaber is held down level with the waist with the tip of the lightsaber pointed at or slightly over the head of the target. This stance is similar to the chūdan-no-kamae in kendo, except in the kendo form you step forward with the dominant foot as you draw the blade.

When Obi-Wan Kenobi was a padawan he always used this stance when drawing his lightsaber, and hastily moved into it as well. This shows how undisciplined he was as a padawan. His feet shifted oddly so that his rear foot was not in a straight line pointing forward, his back was hunched forward (this reduces both balance as well as the flow of energy to-and-from the internal organs), and he held the point of his lightsaber so high that it partially obscured his vision. It is possible he is attempting an aggressive forward stance. By Episode II, he has changed more so into his former master's style.

Neutral Forward Very similar to Jedi ready, except that the dominant foot is forward - identical to chūdan-no-kamae - with the lightsaber hilt close to the waist, the blade pointed to the enemy. Slightly more weight is on the front foot than the rear, which means that the dominant leg is still the one that propels the attack.

Anakin uses this stance in Episode II. He centers himself by setting his stance and swinging his blade slowly from behind his back, over his head, down centerline of his body, and settling the lightsaber in place.

Defensive Neutral A good defensive posture, defensive neutral is ready for any occurrence but is also non-threatening. The dominant foot is drawn back and pointed approximately forty-five degrees out to the side. Approximately sixty-percent of the weight is on the back foot. The dominant shoulder is rolled back as the blade is drawn. The lightsaber is held vertically next to that side of the head, in the pocket created by the shoulder. This form is almost identical to the hassō-no-kamae stance found in kendo.

Jedi Master Qui-Gon Jinn uses this stance when drawing his lightsaber. His form is almost flawless, showing the years of training and discipline spent acquiring his skill. He holds his lightsaber back in such a fashion that his eyes are able to scan a wide forward arc, looking for targets and watching attacks. With his long legs, he is able to hold his feet wide, ready to spring forward at a moment's notice. In Episode II, Obi-wan has followed in his master's footsteps and picked up this stance, and in Episode III when he is fighting Anakin just before Anakin jumps on to the same platform you see Obi-Wan using the stance.

Defensive Back The best defensive posture in sword combat, defensive back is difficult to penetrate, but also difficult to launch an effective attack from. The hilt of the blade is rasied high towards the face, the point of the blade pointed diagonally down at the ground. From this position slashing strikes aimed at the torso can be easily blocked, and stabbing strikes can be quickly parried with wide, sweeping moves from which the defender can quickly move forward into a better stance. Another advantage of this stance is that the blade can be quickly swung all the way around the torso to block attacks from all directions.

Aggressive Neutral A very threatening stance similar to the Jedi ready stance. This involves standing with more of the weight on the front foot rather than the rear. The arms are held so that the hilt of the lightsaber is in line with the solar plexus, and the point of the lightsaber is directed at the target's head. The distance from the body to the lightsaber is greater than most stances. This form is not very useful in conventional combat, but is very deadly in lightsaber-on-lightsaber combat. Darth Sidious uses this when he is fighting Mace Windu.

Combined with the elegant, flowing, and swift motions of Form II, this stance allows Count Dooku to keep his guard up while pressing the attack. Even when facing an Anakin Skywalker armed with two lightsabers, he is able to gain an advantage by keeping his enemy at arm's length.

Aggressive Back A more radical stance than most, aggressive back is a low posture from which a swift attack can be launched. The back foot is pointed out almost ninety-degrees from the body and is holding over eighty-percent of the weight. The front foot is extended forward, almost straight. The lightsaber is held on the dominant side, right beside the head, its blade facing directly forward. Like aggressive neutral, this stance is only useful for taking on a single enemy armed with a lightsaber, especially since it obstructs view of the right side of the body.

This is Obi-wan's stance from Episode III. He uses it mainly in facing General Greivous, alternating at times with aggressive neutral. This leaves him open to attack from surrounding droids, but he realizes that danger is minute in scope to giving Grievous one inch of advantage. Darth Sidious also uses this stance often during his fights against Jedi Master Mace Windu and Yoda.

Aggressive Forward This stance is fairly simple, and involes holding the lightsaber above the user's head, with the blade facing behind them. It allows the user to easily block a high attack or start a strong downward slash.

This stance is used by Darth Sidious at the beginning of his fight with Yoda. During their duel on Geonosis, Darth Tyranus and Anakin Skywalker also use this stance.

Body Zones The body is sectioned off into "zones", areas to describe a location of an offensive or defensive move, called an attack or a parry, respectively. For example, the move Attack 3 can only be defended against by Parry 3: as the opponent attempts to strike the left side, the defender blocks to the left, parrying his blow.

The Body Zones:

Zone 1: Head - Strikes made to the right and left sides of the neck are said to be in zones 2 and 3, respectively. Zone 2: Right arm and side Zone 3: Left arm and side Zone 4: Back Zone 5: Right leg Zone 6: Left leg Examples of Attacks and Parries:

Attack 1: A simple, over-the-head strike at an opponent's head. Though not practiced much in combat training, it is a general move performed over and over to practice form and stance.

Parry 1: A block where the defender shifts his stance back slightly, and then holds his lightsaber up horizontal above his head. Whether the hilt is to the right or the left determines how the defender wishes to press his following attack.

Attack 2/3 Combo: This is a rushing attack where the lightsaber is swung from one shoulder to the opposite hip, brought back up behind the back, and swung down from the opposite shoulder to hip. This X-shaped attack is useful for keeping an enemy busy blocking and unable to counterattack.

Parry 2/3 Combo: A natural defense to the Attack 2/3 combo. The blade is lowered to the hip and brought up diagonally to intercept the opponent's blow. As soon as the lightsabers are no longer making contact, the blade is lowered to the opposite hip and the move is repeated. Jedi can get locked in this combo during a velocity, and it is common to see the attack-parry combo continue to get faster and faster, until either attacker or defender gets the upper hand in speed and can press the attack or counterattack." KEJ 17:24, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Fightsaber article created

 * Fianlly I go to create Fightsaber: Jedi Lightsaber Combat, as part of the Star Wars Insider Articles. Please kindly visit it and see if there is anything wrong. Thanks. Darth Kevinmhk 12:28, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Discussion: List of Marks of Contact Appearances in Movies

 * Darth Kevinmhk 02:50, 29 March 2006 (UTC) All info below are from Fightsaber: Jedi Lightsaber Combat, because it is a canonical source, i will edit everything in the article which contradict this source.
 * 1) Obi-Wan killing Darth Maul = sai tok
 * 2) Obi-Wan cutting Zam Wessel = cho sun
 * 3) Dooku hurting Obi-Wan's arm = shiim
 * 4) Dooku hurting Obi-Wan's leg = shiak
 * 5) Dooku cuting Ani's arm / hand / limb / whatever = cho mai !!! (It specialy stated as an "up to the elbow" cho mai)
 * 6) Jedi killing battle droids = sai tok
 * 7) Obi-Wan in Tatooine Bar = cho sun
 * 8) Vader cutting Luke's hand = cho mai
 * 9) Luke cutting Vader's hand = cho mai


 * Darth Kevinmhk 02:50, 29 March 2006 (UTC) All these below are my own believe of the other appearances, feel free to comment so that we will edit the article later.
 * 1) Maul killing Jinn = shiak
 * 2) Obi-Wan cutting Maul's lightsaber = sun djem
 * 3) Mace killing Fett = sai cha
 * 4) Dooku cutting Ani's green blade = sun djem
 * 5) Ani's cutting Dooku's hands = cho mai
 * 6) Ani killing Dooku = sai cha
 * 7) Jedi vs IG-100s = sai cha & cho mok
 * 8) Obi cutting Grievous hands = cho mai
 * 9) Sidious killing Agen = shiak
 * 10) Sidious killing Saesee & Kit = shiim
 * 11) Ani hurting Mace = cho mai (up to the elbow again?)
 * 12) Obi-Wan cutting Vader = cho mok
 * 13) Vader killing Obi-Wan = sai tok
 * 14) Luke hurting Vader's shoulder = shiim
 * Wow. For a kids movie, some one always gets something cut off in Star Wars. -- SFH 17:13, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
 * My only dispute is with classifying the strikes used to kill Kit Fisto and Saesee Tiin as "shiim." I've always seen shiim referred to as resulting in minor wounds, and a killing stroke sounds anything but minor.  Unfortunately, there is no term given for a slashing attack that causes heavy damage, but it would seem to be better described as an incomplete sai tok.  Or we could refer to it as an "aggressive" shiim   Jwebb13 HoloNet[[Image:Oldsith.png|40px]] 10:21, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

NJO forms
Does the New Jedi Order practice any of the forms of lightsaber combat used by the Old Jedi Order? I know that Luke has some experience in Form V, and I imagine that Mara may have some experience in a Sith form of lightsaber combat, but do any of the other Jedi use the seven forms? -- SFH 17:13, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
 * The only canonical sourced lightsaber forms which survived the purge are: Form V, which Luke mirrored Vader's moves on DS2; Jar'Kai/Niman, which the Dark Jedi Boc used; the Tripaz (sp?) version of Form VII, also from Dark Forces: Jedi Knight. Noted that the latter 2 styles seemed to die with their last user being killed by Kyle Katarn. Darth Kevinmhk 17:46, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Is there a speical name for a form of lightsaber fighting when someone uses to differant lightsabers? 69.26.85.49 20:51, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I've always gotten the impression that the use of anything other than one single-bladed lightsaber (or forked, a la Roblio Darte) is referred to as Jar'Kai, even though the moves used may be based upon another lightsaber form (i.e. when Anakin Skywalker used two blades to fight Count Dooku on Geonosis in Episode II, he's said to be using Jar'Kai, even though his attacks were based on Ataru techniques. Jwebb13 HoloNet[[Image:Oldsith.png|40px]] 10:27, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Practical Application
I was just having this discussion about a Fan Vid on the Juyo page, and another member says that the lightsaber combat styles cannot be practically applied to real world combat. My question is why not? Certainly we won't reach the speed and precision of a Force-user, but the styles are still do-able. Darth Vatrir (pronounced Va-Trear)
 * Keeping this on topic, the article on Shien says it is based on Kendo, which is practical enough in real life. Makashi is based on fencing, which is also practical enough. Without lightsabers, though, you could say that using any form with a vibroblade would be impractical, considering that they're no match for a good blaster at your side. Unless you have an energy shield. And so long as they don't have a melee shield. Kid. -BaronGrackle 00:51, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, the principals and mindsets would still be practical. Darth Vatrir
 * I know this topic is dead, but I'm rekindling it. As I said, the principals and mindsets would still be practical, but many of the moves are also quite practical. Darth Vatrir
 * The way they duel in Star Wars IV, V and VI is much like real fencing (like when Luke fights Vader in number VI he has a pose close to a fencing pose) but Star Wars I, II and III are impractical (for example spinning). Here is more on fencing Fencing FoilFencer
 * Not to sound like and idiot( I like to call it Fencing Geek) but I have read almost everything the internet has to say about Makashi and tried the principle style and it works in real sword fighting, Djem So works, Juyo Works, and form I Shii-Cho is very similar to the style of fighting that the average Joe Uses, who thinks he's the best there ever was. Derek Yoda&#39;s friend 03:02, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
 * And spinning is mostly just a cheapskate thing that characters use in I,II,III but spinning is used to gain momentum or confuse the opponent so it can have a pratical application but useually, well it just looks good OK. Derek Yoda&#39;s friend 06:50, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
 * No, you did not learn Makashi, you just learned the same moves that Lee's stunt double learned for AOTC. They're made up, and exsist only on paper. There's no real "styles" to the in-film combat, since it's unique for each and every character, and they're just made up on the spot. .  .  .  .  06:58, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Form V: Shien / Djem So - That scene from "The Untouchables" where Robert De Niro beats people with a baseball bat seems to have the basic philosophy in mind. Take an object (I love the irony of using the sharpest cutting tool ever invented for this purpose) and beat someone into the ground with it.  Jwebb13 HoloNet[[Image:Oldsith.png|40px]] 05:03, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

For those asking about the "Practical Applications"

 * I am a real-life swordfighter and one of the techniques that I'm studying is Lightsaber Combat! I could attest that Lightsaber Combat really works...  Well, maybe except those Force-enabled moves like the twirls, somersaults, etc. The principles and mindsets used in the Forms are surprisingly real and usable.


 * I find real-life analogies to the Forms of Lightsaber Combat:
 * Form I: Shii-Cho- the basics
 * Form II: Makashi- Fencing, especially La Verdadera Destreza, with its precise and elegant moves.
 * Form III: Soresu- a kenjutsu school called Shinkage Ryu, which emphasizes on injuring an enemy rather than killing him/her.
 * Form IV: Ataru- acrobatic martial arts like Kung Fu and Wushu.
 * Form V: Shien / Djem So- another kenjutsu school like Jigen Ryu, which relently slashes at the enemy.
 * Form VI: Niman- Philippine Arnis and Eskrima and the Japanese Niten Ichi Ryu, which both have one-sword and two sword techniques.
 * Form VII: Juyo / Vaapad- Tennis; which may be a sport but the reflecting principles of which is the heart of the technique.


 * In my experience, I've tried out Forms II, V, VI and VII.
 * My personal style is Djem So; using wide, powerful strokes with an agressive attitude.
 * For blade-to-blade dueling, especially in corridors, I use Makashi which emphasize thrusts and precise parries. I use a Latino beat for it.
 * For defense, I use Juyo (instead of Soresu, which I can't really master) to reflect back the enemy's sword just at the last moment. It is like tennis.
 * The combination of all of these is Niman, with which I use two blades.
 * I sometimes do the spins of Ataru, sometimes to confuse the enemy, but often because it looks cool. :-)

--Gel Maethor 05:07, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Like I said some forms work in real life and I do use some lightsaber combat techniqes in sword, stick or some sort of armed combat dueling. I really like sword fighting or stick fighting. Derek Yoda&#39;s friend 06:11, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Really now, Derek? Maybe we can talk about techniques...  Maybe on our talk pages...  Gel Maethor  [[Image:Celtic_Cross.JPG|20px]] ( Confession Room )
 * Was that an insult or are you just trying to start a conversation? Just asking. Derek Yoda&#39;s friend 01:21, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Thank you Gel Maethor for pointing that out, about what lightsaber combat was based off of. Derek Yoda&#39;s friend 01:39, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I didn't mean to come across as insulting... I was just trying to to start a conversation.  As someone who is just starting out in martial arts, I am always curious of fighting techniques.  Anyway, since this is a discussion page for Lightsaber Combat, I think its better to discuss real-life techniques in my talk page (otherwise known as the "Confession Room").  Just drop by anytime.  The food's on me! -- Gel Maethor  [[Image:Celtic_Cross.JPG|20px]] ( Confession Room )06:25, 7 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Very sorry then, it just looked like sarcasm. Derek Yoda&#39;s friend 21:24, 1 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I always thought Form I was based off European swordplay (Crusader era stuff with the longsword), and Form V was based off Kendo, while Form VII was a combination of Kendo and Wushu. Darth Vatrir

''Form VII: Juyo / Vaapad- Kenjustu and modern day Kendo. (As explained by Nick Gillard.)'' --This part of my post was changed. I thought one shouldn't edit other's comments. Anyway, this may be what Nick Gilliard said. But in my experience, Juyo/Vaapad is analogous to tennis.--Gel Maethor 06:25, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

The force and the forms
I have read couple star wars movie novels, and most of them discuss Jedi let the force direct their lightsabers. Such as Obi Wan and Windu. Since the force direct the lightsaber, there should not be any forms. Forms are canon, so does that mean that lightsaber forms are bunch of bull shit?
 * Forms are canon. Please take this sort of question to another Star Wars site. Atarumaster88  [[Image:Jedi_Order.jpg|20px]] ( Audience Chamber ) 03:57, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Plus, Obi-Wan and Mace both got killed by people who'd mastered Forms V and VII (among others), so if they were letting the Force direct their moves, they obviously made the wrong choice. Jwebb13 HoloNet[[Image:Oldsith.png|30px]] 04:07, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
 * In the interest of forestalling the inevitable, yes, I'm aware that Obi-Wan let Vader snuff him in their rematch. I still say that Mace picked a damned foolish time to debate judicial philosophy.  Jwebb13 HoloNet[[Image:Oldsith.png|30px]] 04:09, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Their based on real Sword Forms and Techneics what do you think, do you think that someone would go to the trouble of creating lightsabers and not bother learning how to wield it effiantly/properly?


 * Dr. David West Reynolds is a genious for inventing the seven forms of lightsaber combat, and I think he deserves credit for it. Derek Yoda&#39;s friend 04:26, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Lightsabers and Blasters
Many lightsaber-wielders have been able to consistently deflect blaster bolts from multiple attackers at once, or hold off two other lightsaber-wielders in a duel. However, normal infantry have never fired on jedi or sith in the middle of a duel. For example, in Episode I, when Darth Maul confronted Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon, Queen Amidala and her guards left. They should have stayed or at least left behind a sniper. If anyone shot at Darth Maul while he was dueling the jedi, there was no way he could have blocked them, nor could anyone else. If Qui-Gon's decision to face Darth Maul without infantry was a result of a jedi belief that conventional soldiers and weapons are useless to a force-sensitive with a lightsaber, this is a great flaw in the Jedi Order and surprisingly arrogant for the defenders of the galaxy. The same thing happened in Episode IV when Luke or any of the nearby stormtroopers could have ended the fight with one shot (except that in the case of the stormtroopers, they probably would have missed). Also, 3 or more troopers firing simultaneously at noncollinear points on a jedi's body could make it impossible to deflect all of the bolts. I realize that jedi have been killed by mass infantry attacks, but skilled jedi such as Obi-Won have survived similar weight of fire, but if infantry used that tactic, a small number of them could kill anyone with a lightsaber. The fact that said infantry would usually be battle droids makes it even easier, because humans might have difficulty making the shots close enough to simultaneous to overcome the defense of a skilled jedi. The real-life reason for the lack of these jedi/sith-killing techniques is that if killing an important character was that easy, the movies would be very boring. Is there an in-universe reason? 69.12.155.64 01:01, 11 August 2007 (UTC)