Talk:Juhani

Is Taris Juhani's homeworld? I had an impression that she was born in whatever the Cathars' homeworld is, then brought to Taris during childhood - similar to what haappened to Mission Vao. - Sikon 02:55, 8 Jul 2005 (UTC)
 * Well... consulted the game... Juhani says her parents fled from the Cathar homeworld and she was raised on Taris, but there is no information which planet she was actually born on. Should we leave the homeworld as Taris or Cathar? - Sikon 03:39, 8 Jul 2005 (UTC)
 * Leave Taris. As a note, neither Anakin nor Luke Skywalker was born on Tatooine. (Neither was Shmi, for that matter). Leia wasn't born on Alderaan, Anakin Solo wasn't born on Coruscant, etc.. QuentinGeorge 05:57, 8 Jul 2005 (UTC)

Revan saves Juhani
It bugs me that this is stated as canon. The lightside *ending* is canonical, the route to that ending however, is not fixed. One can kill Juhani without being a "dark-side" player, especially if they are wanting to role-play an initial failure on the road to becoming a Jedi - like Luke in the cave on Dagobah - it also makes Vrook's continued dislike of your character make a lot more sense...

(195.92.168.176 08:38, 26 January 2006 (UTC))
 * Juhani's OS databank entry clearly shows she survived past Dantooine. QuentinGeorge 08:58, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Ah ok. Dang it. Thanks for the info. Though I don't really trust the OS when it comes to the games. They just took their info straight from the KotOR website, which is itself a little flawed, since the majority of in game evidence points to Malak and Revan being trained on Coruscant, when the site talks about their training on Dantooine. (195.92.168.173 10:04, 27 January 2006 (UTC))
 * Regardless, databank info is canonical. - Sikon [ Talk ] 18:15, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Sith EMpire?
Juhani was never apartof the Sith EMpire, why is that even there in the first place? User:RushinSundaws 1:52, 15 February 2006

Love for Revan???
...I've dug through the dialogue files with KOTOR Tool... there is no dialogue lines that I could find that carries any kind of romantic hints, subtle or otherwise. There closest I could find is a single line to a female Revan, near the end. Could somebody provide me with a screenshot of one or two of these lines? That's the only way I'll believe it. - The Doctor


 * To the dude who wanted screenshots of the Juhani Romance Dialog, here they are:

         I think they took it out of the game... I had to use a savegame editor and flip some of the flags to get these images. Drak swordsman

Yeah, i was just playing it now, and: when i rejected Bastila's deal to become Darth Revan, Juhani was supposed to say something else when i talk to her as a female, but nothing.

Master Nikolce 11:15, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
 * To get that, the romance plot must be active: you must be a woman otherwise she speaks of admiration at best, never tell her she is a freak, never kill her.--Jinger 12:30, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Uncomfortable feelings
Anyone else kind of think she's... hot? Maybe it's the accent. Cutch 01:53, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Positively definately! I think Juhani is definately hot. It is one of the major reasons I play the game again from time to time. Drak swordsman

Game Events
''During Revan's adventures, Juhani was sometimes on the verge of falling to the dark side once again—especially when she met Xor and prepared for revenge. Revan, however, managed to prevent the bloodshed by reciting the Jedi Code, which also worked surprisingly well in other situations.''

The light side *ending* is canon, not every choice along the way. You can choose to let Juhani kill Xor and still keep her in your party and still end the game on the light side. (Ulicus 17:45, 22 May 2006 (UTC))
 * For K1, the lightmost choices are usually presumed. Although I agree, the choice of the ending isn't binding in any way. (Neither is the romance possibility.) - Sikon [ Talk ] 18:13, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Aren't the romances referenced in KotOR 2 though? They're heavily implied if nothing else, be it LSF/Carth or LSM/Bastila.(Ulicus 15:04, 26 May 2006 (UTC))
 * There's also DSM/Bastila if you get the Sith Holocron on Korriban in K2. --Quinton 14:46, 1 June 2006 (UTC)(User:CerberAsta of the ForceCerberAsta of the Force)

Major Quote
Can anyone think of a quote that could be major in terms of Juhani, like the other characters?

Master Nikolce 10:27, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Romance
Interestingly, as pointed out on TFN forums, Juhani's romance with a female Revan appears to be a conscious decision, not a programmer error. void main { int iGender = GetGender(GetPCSpeaker);

if (iGender == GENDER_FEMALE) { SetGlobalBoolean("T_JUHANIROM", TRUE); } } - Sikon [ Talk ] 06:20, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Sorry if this seems like a stupid question, but couldn't it be possible that the programmer accidentally typed in GENDER_FEMALE instead of GENDER_MALE, or accidentally replaced it without realizing it? I've never visited the forum mentioned, so I have no clue as to what the actual reason is. Drak swordsman 07:31, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
 * If you take into account that it appears in a gazillion other places, then no. - Sikon [ Talk ] 09:42, 26 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't have the experience to say otherwise, but are we CERTAIN that Juhani can only be romanced by a female Revan? Up in "Love for Revan?" section of this discussion page, there are screenshots posted of the final romance dialogue... all with a male Revan. Also, the Star Wars databank entry claims that she can be romanced regardless of gender. Has anyone here tried romancing her as a male, as opposed to reading through the game files? Is it just that some versions of the game let male Revans romance her, but not all versions? BaronGrackle 15:20, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
 * The romance dialogue with a male Revan was produced with a modified savegame. As noted, there are scripts that check Revan's gender before allowing romance, but they clearly expect a female Revan. - Sikon [ Talk ] 18:05, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Ah. Well, bah to modified savegames, and bah to inaccurate official sources! Trying to confuse us all, tsk tsk. BaronGrackle 10:15, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
 * So is Juhani or not gay, i mean we have Belaya and now Revan (if female) Jedi Dude 22:16, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Age
Are we sure Juhani was born just beofre the destruction of her homeworld? Because that would make her around 7 at the time of KOTOR. Kuralyov 17:02, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
 * If so then the next question is, do Cathar mature quickly? DAWUSS 14:07, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Belaya
Oh, not again. This kind of speculation became old sooo long ago. See Talk:Belaya. - Sikon 16:37, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Well you'll have to forgive me - I wasn't here when this "speculation" became old. I don't understand the problem, Juhani is clearly a lesbian, is it so unbelievable that her "close friend" was her lover? Not even worth a mention? Master Kavar 17:44, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Sure, Belaya would watch the stars with Juhani, and she turns to the Dark side if Juhani is killed. Lots of people turn to the Dark side or temporarily go mad when their good friends wind up dead (in the Star Wars Miniature game this is called Impulsive Savagery). And if Juhani is redeemed, Belaya may be grateful, but there's no major reunion scene and no big goodbye. They don't even speak onscreen. And, when Juhani and Revan run into that Sith archaelogist fellow on Korriban (I don't remember his name), Juhani tells Revan about his confession of love for her in a heartbeat; she never makes any mention of a relationship with Belaya back on Dantooine, or during the journey, or when confessing her own love for Revan. I don't think Juhani ever even mentions Belaya, ever. If anything, it was a one-side, unspoken, unrequitted affection, and the one character whom we know is a lesbian does not seem to have any emotional ties from it. -BaronGrackle 19:04, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
 * You're right; I can't provide the "hard evidence" that I would normally use before contributing something like this, but you have to keep in mind that Bioware was trying to be subtle. I can only guess at why (problems with Lucas Arts, the ESRB, angry parents, etc) but a lot of things connected to Juhani were cut or toned down (such as a female Revan love triangle). Acknowledging that this was Bioware's intention, one would have to look at the evidence that the game provided and come to the same conclusion. I can't refute Baron's idea about Belaya having an unrequitted interest in Juhani, but I think that's being just too literal with the source material. I don't mind that the section is disputed, but it should still be there somewhere. Master Kavar 20:10, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
 * After giving the matter some thought, I conceed that the Belaya romance section was perhaps too impartial. While I still strongly believe it was correct, I think my revision should make everyone happy. I went ahead and removed the speculation tag, fair? Master Kavar 19:11, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Speculation Galore
What is the deal with this? This article makes me feel like I'm reading a fan fiction novel. Probably because that is exactly what much of this article consists of. It doesn’t matter what you may “feel” about Juhani and her relationships. There is way too much concocted nonsense in this article. An administrator really needs step in and do something about this. 67.142.130.14 23:06, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't understand what you mean at all. Her relationship with Belaya is argueable, but the optional relationship with female Revan isn't. If all you have played is the original X-Box version then I could see how you might miss it, but it is there. Master Kavar 01:33, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Come on now, you should know that whether or not you believe I’ve played one version or another is irrelevant. I’ve never read an article so embarrassingly speculative. It’s important that we all remain objective without pushing our theories when contributing to different articles and apparently for some this philosophy isn’t being taken into consideration. Until you can provide credible documentation from the head developers of KOTOR that officially states that Juhani is in fact a lesbian, had a lesbian relationship with a female Jedi on Dantooine and may have a lesbian relationship with a female Revan these “theories” shouldn’t be presented as fact. Aniki21 21:53, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Once again, the optional romance between female Revan and Juhani is not speculation in any sense. Just take a look around this very page; someone has already provided proof that the romance scripts were set to run only when talking to female Revan. If that's not enough for you, check the official Star Wars database; they get it half-right atleast by saying that Juhani is bisexual, because the player was able to romance her regardless of gender, due to a script bug. If you think you can re-write it to be more impartial, be my guest. Erase it again and I'll report it as vandalism. Master Kavar 00:07, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Search the discussion topics, Aniki21, you know it to be true. -BaronGrackle 00:29, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

I thought this article was a joke when I read it. Over half of the article is dedicated to this made up nonsense. Sanji 22:23, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Accent
I doubt that Juhani's russian accent is due to her Cathar heritage. After all, the Tarisian gambler Niklos has the same accent. So, unless he was raised on Cathar before its destruction, I doubt that the accent is Catharese. Jedi Wolf 1:23, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
 * An excellent point. I've resigned myself to the fact that Star Wars accents are random. "But what about the Coruscant British accent?" Yeah, also random. Tarkin has the accent and is from Eriadu, Jaden Korr's male and female voices have no trace of such an accent, and the new prequel trilogy gives us constant exposure to Coruscant natives who also have different, various accents. -BaronGrackle 20:16, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
 * It's hard to say for sure; but we know she didn't pick up that accent on Dantooine, and it's unlikely she learned it on Taris. It may not even be a Cathar accent specifically, but a regional or racial thing. Regardless, it's worth a mention so I'd leave it the way it is. Master Kavar 01:44, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Protection
I think things have escalated to the point of slapping a protection on this article, ALA C-3PO or the Jedi Exile. Admins, do you concur? Cutch 01:10, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I must concur; this constant vandalism is just getting out of hand. I would like to see this page protected against new or unregistered editors, as all of the attacks seem to be coming from those sources. Master Kavar 05:21, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree as well. Scy Storm 07:16, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
 * It's done. --Imp 10:34, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

What the Administrators need to be doing is ensuring that this article is credible. Right now this article is a total joke.67.142.130.13 12:21, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Then explain exactly what you think is wrong with it rather than making vague complaints. -- Darth Culator  (Talk) 13:18, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Well much of the article consists of extreme speculation and at times blatantly false statements. One example is the line that claims that Juhani states that she loves her when in fact the line reads "I care for you". Just one of many examples.67.142.130.41 13:57, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
 * The page wasn't protected to keep you from editing. It was protected because a lot of vandals have been vandalizing it. This, unfortunately, means that unregistered users such as yourself can't edit the article. However, you may want to consider registering&mdash;it takes about 30 seconds and doesn't even require an e-mail.Plus you'd be free to edit anything. --Imp 14:03, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Actually, it probably was, as 67.142.130.14 and 67.142.130.36 are two of the IPs who kept changing the page. --  I need a name  ( Complain here ) 18:26, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, I hope you can forgive me for paraphrasing 67.142.130.41; I decided to go with the meaning of her words, instead of her exact words. If you could refute a single point in the article I would change it, but you and those vandalising the page haven't been able to. If I need to post the entire final talk with Juhani with the male and female differences I will do so. Master Kavar 19:45, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

What you call "paraprasing" is in reality mass speculation and interpreting things as you see fit. While most of the article pertaining to the "romance" is a ridiculous mixture of speculation,exaggeration, and simply making things up, the Belaya section is an absolute concoction. If you truly believe that the Belaya section is fully credible then you should have no problem providing credible sources that confirm it. I also find it curious that the disclaimer indicating that the factuality of this article was disputed was removed once more people took notice and began to correct this aricle.67.142.130.41 22:07, 26 October 2006 (UTC) "Though not entirely supported by evidence, some believe that Juhani and her childhood friend Belaya had a somewhat scandalous affair while they both trained at the Dantooine enclave, despite the Jedi code discouraging Jedi from the attachments of love." "It was because of their strong feelings that when Juhani fell to the dark side that the Council decided that Belaya was too close to Juhani to return her, that their strong passions would work against them if she were to try." "(Indeed, if the player chose the dark path and killed Juhani, those strong emotions turned to vengeance against Revan and she fell to the dark side as well.)"
 * Once again, I invite you to point specifically what the section speculates on, or what I misinterpreted. There is an optional romance with Juhani in the game that can only be accessed by a female player, this is fact. Juhani at times has seperate responses in dialogue that only activate if the player is female. At the end of the game she has two completly sperate dialogue trees for the player, and if the player is both female and has completed Juhani's side quest with Xor, Juhani will tell the player that she cares for her and wants to be with her. Like I said, the evidence exists within this very talk page, as someone took the liberty of posting a series of screen shots to prove it. None of these facts can be disputed or misinterpreted. As well, I was the one who created the Belaya section under romances, I am also the one who "corrected" it to be more impartial. If you can prove the evidence wrong go right ahead, until then stop making baseless accusations. Master Kavar 22:36, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
 * An "absolute concoction"? Let's look at the current Belaya paragraph:
 * I've boldened the first two verb groups: "not supported" and "believe". It is true that the alleged romance is not indisputably supported, but it is also true that some believe it is there. I don't think you dispute those two assertions.
 * This part is a fact from the game, supported by dialogue.
 * Also a fact from the game, supported by dialogue. Anonymous person, the paragraphs are not nearly as conjectural as you imply. I myself believe that Juhani and Belaya had a sort of unspoken "summer romance" thing between them, the type that wouldn't cause scandal because it never really developed into much&mdash;though the feelings were there. Even if the sections were conjectural, the Behind the scenes sections of other articles have had much more extreme hypotheses. -BaronGrackle 03:01, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Juhani is a Lesbian. Get over it.
I don’t like having to say it like that; and let me put out this isn’t pointed against anyone in particular. I just can’t believe that after all this time this very obvious fact is still under debate. The original game writer confirmed her sexuality as well as dispelling the bisexual rumor on Bioware’s message board, and even the official Star Wars databank entry agrees that there was a potential romance between Juhani and the female Revan. If anyone is still not convinced by two official sources, I would also point out the game script that handles her romance plot (courtesy of Sikon): void main { int iGender = GetGender(GetPCSpeaker);

if (iGender == GENDER_FEMALE) { SetGlobalBoolean("T_JUHANIROM", TRUE); } }

Note “JUHANIROM”, as in “Juhani Romance”, the same naming code used for handling Bastila’s and Carth’s respective romance sub-plots. So by now any reasonable person should be able to conclude that Juhani is in-fact lesbian. Now that we have that established, I will pick apart my own writing point by point.

BaronGrackle already did a very good job on discussing the possible Belaya romance, so I have nothing more to add to that. The only thing I will say is that it makes no unsubstantiated claims; only describes what actually did happen between the two of them, and states that there could have possibly been more to them based on what we already know. This is perfectly legitimate for a “behind the scenes” section.

Now for Revan. This sub-section is written under the assumption that the player was a female, and followed the romance plot through to conclusion:

"I&hellip; I&hellip; I care for you. I do not know why. I do not know if anything will be possible or if you even return what I feel, but I do know it is there."

- Juhani to Revan

''"On their journey together to stop the Sith, Juhani came to trust and admire Revan as a close and dear friend. However, in their appearance in the Knights of the Old Republic video game, their story could have turned out very differently if Revan was a woman." ''
 * This quote I chose from the last talk you will have with Juhani, after defeating Bastila on the Rakatan temple. It’s quoted word for word, and appears exclusively in the female Revan romance dialogue tree.

"''"Starting with their meeting at the meditation grove, Juhani was charmed by Revan's persuasive personality, and perhaps even a little smitten when Revan told her that she was a beautiful and talented young woman. " [Persuade] Come now, Juhani. You are a beautiful young woman who has much talent. [Success] I thank you for your kind words, Jedi. You seem to know just what affects me...  "Juhani eventually returned to the Jedi Order at Revan's urging, and soon after the two of them would be teamed up on a mission to stop the Sith. Throughout their journey Revan and Juhani grew closer; despite the turmoil in Juhani's spirit, and a few rough periods when Juhani would blame the destruction of her home world Taris on her, Revan was kind and patient with her. Eventually she worked out the emotional problems that had long plagued her with Revan's help, and it made their friendship stronger for it."  "Unknown (presumably) to Revan at the time, Juhani had begun developing feelings for her, feelings that she did her best to keep hidden so as not to jeopardize their mission or friendship. At one time Revan even asked Juhani jokingly if she was "coming on to her", and she snapped back at her by calling her a "self-centered fool" to hide her embarrassment."  "However after she, Revan, and Jolee were forced to confront Darth Malak's new apprentice on the roof of the Rakatan Temple, she sensed that their journey together would soon be coming to and end, one way or another. Fearing that she would never get another chance to voice her feelings, she finally opened up and poured her heart out and confessed that she loved her. Whatever Revan's feelings towards her, they would not stay together for long."  "Juhani:This may be the last time I have a chance to talk to you...I just want you to know that I...that I..." Revan: You do not need to say it, Juhani. Juhani: But I feel I must. I have never said this before...I...I... I care for you. I do not know why. I do not know if anything will be possible, or if you even return what I feel. But I do know that it is there. I am sorry if this upsets you. I am so sorry if I am wrong, but I cannot deny what it is that I feel. Revan: I feel the same way, Juhani. Juhani: Now that I have put myself in this position, I know not what to say. Revan: We have gone past words. Juhani: Yes. I thank you. But as much as I may care for you, and you for me, first we must deal with Malak. After there will be time to sort things out between us. ''
 * So far everything is correct. It acknowledges that Revan was a man and that he and Juhani were good friends, as is assumed by the LS ending. It also states that the following story only took place in the original video game, and only if the player was a woman.
 * When Revan does meet Juhani in the grove, the player has several “persuade” options available to help talk down Juhani. This section assumes that Revan is charming and a persuasive talker, just as everybody in the game describes her as being. But even assuming that Revan doesn’t use her persuade options, she still had to talk Juhani into returning. However Juhani does react differently to the persuasion of a female Revan, as I described:
 * The bolded section being said only to female Revan. Juhani in this scene sounds clearly charmed, or else she would have had no reason to say it, or she would’ve said the same thing to male Revan.
 * I see no problem with this part; all of this happens in the game regardless of Revan’s gender or romantic intentions, as it was part of the LS storyline. Moving along…
 * At no point in the game does Revan seem to acknowledge Juhani’s budding interest in her, so I said presumably she was unaware. It’s only logical to assume that while Juhani and Revan were becoming friends that Juhani would be developing feelings for her; Juhani eventually falls for her, and those feelings didn’t just spring up over night. Juhani did keep her feelings a secret, as evident by their final conversation where Juhani begins by saying she might not ever have another chance to tell her, and then struggled to tell her even after that. I speculated as to her reasons, because duty and rejection are just universal themes when it comes to unrequited romance. Revan does get the option of asking Juhani if she was coming onto her, though maybe I took some liberty with the motivations behind Juhani snapping back at her. I suppose it’s just as possible that she was genuinely angry at her, I chose to interpret it as embarrassment.
 * All of this is true as well; the final conversation will only take place with Juhani if the player is female, has followed her sub-plot to completion, and talks to her after defeating Bastila (but before deactivating the shields). That final talk goes as follows:
 * If there is any other way to interpret that conversation as anything but romantic intentions, I would be amazed to see it. Especially considering it's an exclusive, seperate line of dialogue from the male and non-romantic female version. And just in the interests of leaving the article ambiguous, I didn’t even say whether or not Revan returned her feelings. Regardless if they stayed together or not, Revan left the Republic a few months later for the unknown regions, and left everybody behind.
 * This was one of just a few possible outcomes; aside from the canonical LS Male story, a LS Female could have not returned Juhani’s feelings, or fell to the dark side and killed her when she became the reborn Sith Lord. But since that was not the focus of the section, I decided to omit them. If someone else wants to add those possibilities back in they’re welcome to. But can we please put this debate to rest and put away all the revert wars and "disputed" tags? Master Kavar 23:09, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
 * The problem is that, due to a bug in the game script, it is possible to get that final romance conversation, or at least a portion of it, as a male Revan. I used to hang around the BioWare and Obsidian message boards a lot and there were numerous reports of Male Revan characters getting that final conversation.– 23:19, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Didn't they fix that problem in a patch, though? Kuralyov 23:42, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Isn't it funny how many people seem so shooken up by a potentiol gay/bi character? Its terrible, just as bad as the shock at the female exile. Jedi Dude 23:30, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm surprised that this is even an issue given the male percentage who edit this encyclopedia. ;) Adamwankenobi 23:37, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
 * You'd think people who read about aliens and a mystical energy field would be more open minded. -- SFH 01:04, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I honestly don't care either way. I have more important things to worry about than the sexual orientation of fiction characters ;-) I think that it is fairly obvious what the writers intended. I was just pointing out the reason why people tend to discount the lesbian claim. – 01:49, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
 * "I'm surprised that this is even an issue given the male percentage who edit this encyclopedia. ;)" I know, Adamwankenobi. I said the same thing on the Exile-is-female discussion. Amazing, eh? -BaronGrackle 02:10, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeah, my verdict is in... she... likes girls. I mean doesn't the databank quote ("Depending on player choices, Juhani may be a romantic interest in the story, regardless of the gender of the player character.") seal the deal? Cutch 07:08, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
 * The databank is wrong, per the above script source code. - Sikon 09:04, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
 * The databank is wrong&hellip;boy, that's something you don't hear around here very often. Is it wrong, or are we just being selective aobut this? Cutch 17:22, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
 * The movies and EU sections of the databank talk about fictional things are canon, unless they are overridden by later canon. In contrast, the BTS section talks about real-life facts and therefore can sometimes be wrong. - Sikon 03:36, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Wrong'&hellip;but worthy of mentioning in our BTS section nonetheless. Cutch 06:00, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

A possible resolution

 * Let's just remove all references to her sexual orientation and forget this controversy existed, shall we? - Sikon 09:04, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes but why should we do this? Its an importent factor really, and if we ignore this whats to say people will want to ignore other things? Its best left as it is? Jedi Dude 10:06, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
 * How about we don't? If people can't handle it, they will be better off sticking to entertainment they will find more palatable, like VeggieTales or Davey and Goliath. I'd recommend Looney Tunes, but then they'd have to go to the Looney Tunes wiki and edit out all the references to Bugs Bunny's cross-dressing. -- Darth Culator  (Talk) 13:59, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
 * "Political Correctness is just inverted McCarthyism." - Dennis Miller Cutch 17:22, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
 * That's not a solution, that's just letting the ignorant and prejudice have their way. If we're going to omit Juhani's optional relationship with Revan, then we might as well set Revan and Exile back to gender neutral characters to appease the vandals on those pages too. Interesting so far that those same vandals haven't showed up yet to debate Master Kavar 19:54, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

These sexual references need to be removed because the basis behind these theories is far too obscure to warrant the matter of fact way they are being presented in this article. There is enough fabrication in this article to make Stephen Glass look like Honest Abe. Aniki21 20:31, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, if cut content from KOTOR2 makes it into the behind-the-scenes sections of articles, why not include this information in this BTS section? Moreover, Abe Lincoln wasn't all that honest. Cutch 20:36, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
 * If two official sources, the game script, and all of the dialogue I have transcribed here isn't a strong enough "basis" for you Aniki, I honestly don't know what would be. How much more proof do you need, or are you just objecting out of principal because you don't like where that evidence leads? Master Kavar 20:41, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
 * He keeps saying the same thing without actually saying anything. -- Darth Culator  (Talk) 21:34, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I am against removing this information just to placate a single bigot who hasn't contrubted anything else to this encyclopedia. Kuralyov 22:06, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Kuralyov, grow up and try to stick to defending the content of this article without making baseless personal attacks on people. That fact that you are taking any difference of opinion so personally greatly damages your credibility on this issue. Hearsay and speculation is all that has been provided so far, very little proof that validates this largely fabricated article. Aniki21 14:38, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Very little proof? The Databank and the actual decompiled game files are very little proof? I've said it before and I'll say it again: saying something repeatedly doesn't make it true. Your argument is no argument, and consensus is against you. Deal with it. -- Darth Culator  (Talk) 14:47, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Here's an idea: why don't we present the precedents (i.e. other speculative information in other BTS sections) and put it to a vote? As a side note, what is everyone complaining about? IT'S IN THE FREAKING BEHIND THE SCENES SECTION! WE'RE NOT SAYING IT'S CANON!!!! Cutch 15:23, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

O.K. let’s call the non canon Juhani/female Revan relationship a romance. How does this necessarily make her a lesbian? Even more perplexing, how does this make her an “open lesbian”?. Her feelings are left very vague in this final conversation as well. There is no talk of “I’m a lesbian”, “I’m attracted to you sexually” or a simple “I love you”. This conversation can most certainly be interpreted as suggestive and left open to one’s interpretation but that’s all I’m afraid. There is fact and there is speculation. Aniki21 15:25, 30 October 2006(UTC) ''O.K. let’s call the non canon Juhani/female Revan relationship a romance. How does this necessarily make her a lesbian?'' Because Juhani has an attraction to women and not men, and wants to pursue a relationship with female Revan, and not male Revan. That makes her a lesbian. And I need to point out again it's not just me calling it a romance, the game writer, game script, AND the Star Wars Databank says that Juhani likes women too. Is that clear enough yet? Even more perplexing, how does this make her an “open lesbian”?. It's not as perplexing as you make it sound; Juhani openly admits these feelings to Revan at the end of their journey, that's where the 'openly lesbian' part comes from. For all we know there could already be more EU women who are lesbians but we don't know it yet, or that more characters' sexuality could be retconned in the future, but as of now Juhani is the only known character who is a lesbian. Although technically female Revan could be considered the first lesbian possibly, since it's the player that chooses which romance to pursue. If you really think that final conversation is so vague, I'd like to see any other possible meaning it could have other than romantic intentions. Your now arguing against official sources because you believe that their conversation is too vague and open to interpretation, but the intentions of the game writers, designers, and her entry in the Star Wars databank is anything but unclear. Master Kavar 21:37, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm still sort of confused on how that "romance" is canon since Revan was a male. Theoretically, does that whole line of action exist since Revan was male? Atarumaster88  [[Image:Jedi_Order.jpg|20px]] ( Audience Chamber ) 15:58, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

It amazes me how some of you feel it’s reasonable for over half of the article to be dedicated to Juhani’s totally unofficial designation. A brief mention of these ideas based on vague sources is one thing but cluttering most of the article with this unofficial information is quite another and very unreasonable. If mentioned at all it should be presented in the proper context, allowing the reader to make up their own mind, rather than manipulating them with unverified falsities and half truths. From what I’ve seen this article has been grossly distorted by someone who has taken it upon themselves to concoct a highly fabricated report to suite their own agenda. Aniki21 07:15, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

It’s apparent that there are a few people here with an agenda who will not be swayed no matter what. Some of you are using the Star wars databank as source of proof that Juhani is officially an “open lesbian” where in the Behind the scenes section it is states “Juhani may be a romantic interest in the story, regardless of the gender of the player character.”, when in fact this does nothing but indicate hint that Juhani may possibly be bisexual. It’s very dishonest and hypocritical to use references that don’t match the claims that you yourself are making. In general to be identified as an “open” anything once must identify themselves as such and this is certainly not the case her. I mean we wouldn’t call her an open “sadist” because of her murderous tendencies now would we? This really doesn’t affect those who know better but it is an incredible disservice to the new comers who aren’t aware that they are being manipulated by deliberately misleading information. In any event, I wouldn’t worry about it much because an article with this amount of blatantly manufactured material will not hold up for much longer in the face of neutral authoritative scrutiny.Sanji 01:09, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Once again, he tries to sound smart. But all I hear is "blablablablaimahomophobeblablabla." -- Darth Culator  (Talk)(TINC) 12:59, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
 * All I'm saying, just for the record: You would think people who read about aliens and a mystical energy field would be more open minded. Contrary to what people seem to think, we actually know what we are doing here. We aren't a bunch of hyperactive fanboys here, we are serious Star Wars fans who report on facts, and do original research into Star Wars fandom. We have had our lowpoints (ie the Great Edit War on Palpatine) but trust us: We aren't doing this just to push an agenda. -- SFH 02:51, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Well Darth Culator, you have certainly solidified your credibility on this issue with the exceptional level of maturity and objectivity you have shown here. The further correction of this article is inevitable so personal attacks aren't going to get you anywhere. Aniki21 04:57, 6 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Regardless of what he said, (and I personally don't agree with his approach) there was really no need to respond to that. Suffice to say, that post did not help promote civility. Culator, if you read this, I encourage you to ignore Aniki21's comment- responding probably won't accomplish anything.  Atarumaster88  [[Image:Jedi_Order.jpg|20px]] ( Audience Chamber ) 05:15, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Let's just settle this
It's been five days now, long enough for everyone to have their say I think. The over-all consensus to me seems to be keeping the article the way it is, in which case we can take down the disputed tag. If that is not how you feel, the time to voice your concerns and suggest changes should be now. And by changes I don't mean suggesting removing any mention of Juhani's sexuality, since the evidence more than defends its inclusion. :P I'd like to finish this with all parties satisfied, but not at the cost of ommiting controversial information. Master Kavar 08:06, 1 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, I apologize for not looking at this sooner. I forgot to place it on my watchlist. I'm not here to argue about removing Juhani's sexuality, but I'm curious as to why the romance section is so big. I mean, I know "sex sells" in media, but on a wikia? Case in point, I don't think Wikipedia's article on Marilyn Monroe talks the most about the parts of her people tend to remember most. It could be argued that it's a violation of NPOV to place an emphasis on the romance segment. I mean, Leia and Han, Luke and Callista/Luke and Mara, and Jaina and Zekk don't have a romance section as long as this one. Atarumaster88  [[Image:Jedi_Order.jpg|20px]] ( Audience Chamber ) 03:08, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
 * It wasn't my intention to place extra emphasis on the romance section really; it does seem a bit long in comparison with other sections of its kind, but in a sense it's a bit like re-explaining the entire story between where Revan met Juhani up until the end. I think that's just the nature of describing an alternate storyline like this one. But if you think it's too long, how would you suggest slimming it down? Master Kavar 03:44, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
 * For a romance section about an alternate storyline that doesn't exist in continuity, I definitely think it needs slimming down. I suggest the removal of the sentence starting with "This friendship was not always easy . . . "- doesn't seem to add any new information. The sentence after that can actually be moved up to the main article- it is true for both genders of Revan. I question the value of the direct quotes in the following paragraph, though I could concede that. The sentence "However, after she, Revan, and Jolee . . . " similarly contributes nothing of value to the segment- it's already in the main article body. Finally, the last paragraph could be slimmed down some- that first sentence is too long. That's my take. Atarumaster88  [[Image:Jedi_Order.jpg|20px]] ( Audience Chamber ) 04:30, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Your points are very well taken; in retrospec I did make it unnecessarily long, though I still maintain that it was all true and within context. Hopefully this latest revision should be enough to please almost everyone. Master Kavar 06:00, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Thank you. This latest revision is much better- it gets the point across without being overly lengthy. You might also want to check the trivia section for another sexuality mention that could be removed. I don't know, but I would think we'd want to put it all in the same place. Atarumaster88  [[Image:Jedi_Order.jpg|20px]] ( Audience Chamber ) 16:00, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

The Information in this article seems... wrong
Ok... so she's seven in KotOR? What?

Whoever at LucasFilm placed the battle of Cathar at 3963 is obviously mistaken... it MUST have been one of the planets that the Mandalorians messed up BEFORE the MAIN Mandalorian Wars, during the period from 3976 BBY to 3963 BBY... especially since it's outside of the Republic anyway.

Urg. LucasFilm's continuity guys are rubbish. (195.92.168.166 12:51, 5 November 2006 (UTC))
 * You raise a good point; Juhani states that Cathar was attacked before the Republic entered the Mandalorian wars, it was one of the reasons the Republic didn't intervene. Otherwise Juhani herself would not fit properly into continuity. Lucas Arts may have the authority to retcon whatever they want, but not if it's going to leave such a glaring plot hole. So what do we do about it? Exclude the new date, or use it and put aside a simply note the descrepencies, as was done with Kreia's article? Master Kavar 14:31, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I've just taken a look over at the Battle of Cathar article. I think it would be worthwhile noting the descrepencies in that article... because it seriously looks like Dan Wallace made another boo-boo. Sentry mentions that it was retconned, but retcons are supposed to fix things. The original (pre Mando War) date for the Battle of Cathar didn't NEED fixing... Dan could have had ANY battle be what galvanised Revan and had him marching off to war. Why did it have to be the battle of Cathar? (Ulicus 17:27, 5 November 2006 (UTC))
 * I don't particularly like the retcon, but I think that it can be made to work. If I remember correctly, Juhani never states how old she was when she left her home world, so the date of the battle doesn't really change her age. I am guessing that she was in her teens when she arrived on Taris.– 23:41, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

There has been a lot of wrong information in this article. Much of the grossly fabricated information has been reduced thankfully but the article still needs work. Sanji 01:39, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Could we please keep complaints about the Juhani's sexuality stuff in the correct section? --  I need a name  ( Complain here ) 02:24, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
 * He's obviously incapable of dropping the issue, despite being both factually incorrect and overruled by consensus. -- Darth Culator  (Talk)(TINC) 02:58, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Juhani states that she was a baby when her parents fled Cathar, but there's still a few unknowns. Like how long it took them to settle on Taris, or if Cathar's mature more quickly than most near-human species. But as it stands, the new chronology places Juhani's age at what, 17 by the start of the game? Master Kavar 02:51, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Why can't we just have two Battles of Cathar? Havac 06:34, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
 * @ Havac What, the Mandalorians left it standing the first time? :P
 * @ Sentry, I'm almost certain that Juhani states that she was a baby when she fled Cathar, and, either way - she refers to it as her homeworld. I wouldn't call a place I'd only lived in since my teens my "hometown"... it's a mistake, pure and simple, unless the situation that I inquired about over at the Battle of Cathar talkpage is what's gone down. (Basically, does the NEC say that Revan went to war straight after the battle of cathar, or straight after the "full details" had become known, ala the Revan article. If it's ala the Revan article, everything can be reconciled, as it's just a case of the full details not becoming known for several years :) (Ulicus 01:32, 7 November 2006 (UTC))