Talk:Imperial I-class Star Destroyer/Legends

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Sensor Globes or Shield Generators?
I always thought that the globes on top of the IDS were shield generators. Becoming a usual to this wiki I found out that it was canon that the globes were sensor globes, while on other wikis it is stated that it is a controversial issue. This can't be determined becasue there are various sources stating diffrent theories to the issue. What source exactly does this wiki confirm that the globes are in fact sensor globes?
 * Numerous, I believe. The reason people call them shield generators is because of the issue at the Battle of Endor; however, the sensor globe exploded due to the fact the shields went down, I believe. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 13:28, 3 April 2006 (UTC)


 * What about video games? The theroy that they are in fact shield generators is mostly confirmed by the Rouge Squadron series
 * First of all: Games go against canon. Second of all: Someone else had said that. And third of all, don't post something three times. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 21:02, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
 * God, It was a mistake, Jesus
 * And who had mentioned that?
 * "God, It was a mistake, Jesus". What's your problem? I'm just telling you that they're sensor globes. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 19:58, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Not all games go against canon. According to the LucasFilm canon tree, storyline from games, that includes cutscenes and dialgoue are canon, part of the C-Canon branch.
 * yeah and what's your sources
 * One, the fact that games go against canon, and two, the fact that it has been stated here many times by other users. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 21:22, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Person who's not Nebulax, please sign your comments (four tildes, ~ ). As for this issue, Star Wars: Complete Locations specifically establishes them as sensor globes with local shield projection vanes. - Lord Hydronium 21:39, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Thank you. There's a source. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 21:57, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
 * First of all: Please don't post in the middle of a discussion. Second of all, most games do, especially when they show things different from what are in the movies. Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 19:18, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
 * C-canon is pretty much everything in the Expanded Universe: Star Wars books, comics, games, cartoons, non-theatrical films, and more. Games are a special case as generally only the stories are C-canon while things like stats and gameplay may not be. C-canon elements have been known to appear in the movies, thus making them G-canon. (This includes: the name "Coruscant," swoop bikes, Quinlan Vos, Aayla Secura, YT-2400 freighters, Salporin, and Action VI Transports.)
 * "Games are a special case as generally only the stories are C-canon while things like stats and gameplay may not be". Exactly. There's my point. The stories of the games are C-canon. For instance, the storyline in Battlefront II&mdash;all those battles really happened in the Star Wars Galaxy. But here's the thing: Each time you play that battle, you change it, which is why only storylines of games are C-canon. But the point of this dicussion is that there are sources that the globes are sensor globes, not shield generators. Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 12:28, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Ok, ok, ok. Here's how I think the whole problem started. The WEG books named them shield domes, because of what we see in ROTJ. But it really doesn't make sense for a shield generator to not be shielded, and to be stuck way out in the open where it can be easily blasted. Secondly, the games used information from the WEG books, and they were made destroyable to make destroying a Star Destroyer something other than suicide, because that wouldn't be any fun. Notice that the domes look almost exactly like the radar domes you see at TV stations and airports. Plus, having them up on top of the tower like that makes sense, it keeps most of the ship's bulk out of the way of the scanners. As someone said, the dome blew up in ROTJ because the shields were out, not causing the shields to go out. It was to show the audience the huge ship had become vulnerable. --Commander Mike 05:23, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Exactly, and if you compare them with real-life shipsensors, they're practically the same shape. Furthermore, Richard Edlund, one of the ILM technicians responsible for the Executor explosions in ROTJ, mentions in a 1983 CINEFEX interview that part of their shot is one of the "radar domes" on top of the command tower being in flames (as seen in the finished film). So ILM's position on what they were working with is perfectly clear on this issue. They're scanners, not shield generators. (Incidently, they do have auxillary generators for the protection of the domes themselves, shown in a cut-out in ITW:OT and SW:CL.) VT-16 09:38, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Well said, Commander Mike. Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 11:07, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I think that they put those little shield generators there as a concession to people who refuse to believe that they are scanner globes. Before I read that little piece, I expected them to be the ubiquitous static discharge vanes.--Commander Mike 14:03, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeah, some people went "localized shield-generators"? Mumble grumble when they read that. Still, it's better than WEG's "OMGZ they protect the whole ship and they're on the outside! lol" VT-16 14:28, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree. Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 19:07, 1 May 2006 (UTC)


 * What other craft have sensor globes? I'm pretty sure the Telgorn shipyard does too (I included it in that article anyway - if it's wrong just delete it). I'd actually quite like to see an article on sensor globes, written by somebody knowledgable about them. -- Dengar Antilles 05:14, 2 May 2006 (UTC) (talk)
 * Actually, it's apparantly both, according to Star Wars: Complete Locations. &mdash;Jaymach Ral'Tir (talk) 05:42, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm pretty sure "local-area" means just for the sensor globe, not the entire ship. Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 10:57, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I believe that one of the repair yards (I think the Swin Suns Station one in that insanely hard, final family mission) also has sensor globes. Plus, the Falcon has a great big sensor dish, and Corellian Corvettes have sensor dishes top and bottom. I know they're not globes, but they show that ships often do have big external sensors. --Commander Mike 22:50, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, now we're not talking about Star Destroyers either. Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 23:06, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

I know, but someone asked if other ships had sensor globes.--Commander Mike 04:46, 4 May 2006 (UTC) Admiral Correct me if I'm wrong but did not the edition of a thermal exhaust port that would allow a battlestation the size of a small moon to be destroyed by a pair of proton torpedoes prove that yes, they are in fact VERY stupid. I fail to see what that has to do with anything, if anything the Kuat shipyards people wouldn't be as smart as the empires top scientists.
 * True. Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 11:00, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
 * On all ships noted as having sensors of come kind, you always see them sticking out somewhere on the vessel, either as small or big vanes or dishes (Falcon, droid control ship) or globes (Republic and Imperial warships). Thankfully, the ridiculous assumption that the Empire somehow went completely against most common design-knowledge and put their shield generators outside the main hulls, has been rectified. Maybe not completely as hoped, but reasonably enough. VT-16 12:24, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I doubt the shipbuilders would place shield generators on the hulls of ships anyway... Unless they were stupid, of course. Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 19:27, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
 * The Death Star wasn't produced by Kuat Drive Yards, though. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 15:33, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Being smart and having common sense are two different things. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 01:10, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't get it
There's just something I don't get about the launching of TIE Fighters from an ISD. If somebody has an explanation then help me out. Better yet would be picutre of one expalining the anatomy.
 * Are you kidding me? They're launched from racks out throught the hangar bay at the bottom of the ship. Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 11:15, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

are there any pictures? and how many can you fit?
 * 1)There might be, but I doubt it. 2)See Star Wars: Incredible Cross-Sections for the compliment. Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 11:19, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

well all im saying they have to be more specific on how ties are lanuched from the hangers and how there returned Remeber of course that in the Star Wars Essential Guide that they are shield generators, and that the Y-Wings shield generator in the guide is identical (if smaller) than the ones on the star destroyer. Also does anyone remember what happened in ROTJ to the Executor? If those were sensors then it wouldn't have been destroyed. Finally it is a stupid idea for them to be in such an exposed place, but that is forgetting the many other stupid ideas the Imperials have had, can anyone say "thermal exhaust port"?
 * They're launched from racks inside the hangar, exist through the hangar bay, come back through when they're done, annd re-attach to the racks. That's it. Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 20:10, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
 * We see two taking off from an ISD-II in ROTJ. I assume when in a big conflict, all the TIEs being sent out, detach from their racks, hang in mid-air and zoom out in pairs, going in steady waves. VT-16 21:55, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I suppose so. Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 23:36, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
 * They're sensor globes. And yes, they could have been destroyed if they were sensors, which they are. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 15:35, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Protection
This article and Imperial II-class Star Destroyer have been protected. Let me or another admin know when the edit war is over. Note that I have no metaphorical "dog" in this fight: as far as I'm concerned, Star Destroyers were "big" and were armed with "lots of weapons", and that's as much as I'd be willing to bet money on. &mdash;Silly Dan (talk) 22:35, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, but the anon doesn't seem to get "Numerous light turbolasers and ion cannons". Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 22:36, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Is someone trying to argue "books >> movie" evidence again? *rolls eyes* VT-16 13:40, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeah. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 15:26, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I wish I could be a real dick and go back to being a "purist" again. Just ignore everything outside of the movies and their production statements. Things were easier back then. ;P VT-16 16:25, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
 * If we were all like that, this site would be a lot smaller... Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 17:12, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
 * And we wouldn't have great Jedi or Sith like Revan, the Exile, Malak, Sion, Nihilus, or Traya if it was like that. Or we wouldn't have pre-NJO Jacen, Jaina, Zekk, Anakin, Lusa, Raynar, Tahiri, and Lowbacca(regretfully the last Wookie Jedi in the EU).
 * And we'd still have tedious canon arguments over technical details, I'm sure of it. 8) &mdash;Silly Dan (talk) 21:19, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
 * True. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 00:50, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Added what we agreed on.-Rob
 * Thank you. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 12:45, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Compromise?!
Look, VT-16 may have agreed to this "compromise," but I did not. Like I said before, Wookieepedia should not be about compromise, it should be about truth. Medium turbolasers are visible from a distance, as you can see on the Venator and the ISD. Therefore, smaller guns would logically be light cannons, or as the ICS puts it, "point-defense." Adding in "numerous" medium cannons is wrong, and has NO basis in canon whatsoever. It's just you clinging to the WEG stats in a bizarre way, trying to beef up the number and size of the guns because you think that the G-canon armament isn't as big as the 60/60 WEG armament that it's "supposed" to be. JimRaynor55 23:03, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I have to once again agree with you. I would just like to note that I just wanted to edit the edit war. However, this is the place to solve it&mdash;not the article itself. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 23:25, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Your 'truth' really can't show which are light and medium turbolaser cannons, in fact the only cannons that are visible on an ISD are the *heavy* cannons, not medium or light. How can you tell them apart? You have no canon source to support that medium cannons are visible. And I am not clinging onto the WEG stats, I am clinging onto logic. For such a large ship, there is no way of telling medium cannons from light from models. The Venator's heavy cannons we only see in the shot of the movies, and I repeat, there are no way the rest of the armanent of a mile long craft like the ISD to be so sparsly armed, meaning medium cannons must be put in the numerous catagorey due to the fact we can't tell them apart from the light ones.

point out the different calibers of guns:

  

There, three pics. Point out the light turbolasers and medium turbolasers. Tell them apart.-Rob
 * Once again, Rob, he used pictures of models of ISDs, not the images from the movies themselves. Once again, physics can be applied to Star Wars. JimRaynor has been a big contributor to the site. I don't see why you can't just trust him. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 11:09, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Analyzing the models isn't a canon source. He never backs up his information. And real life physics again can't be applied to a fantasy setting(lightsabers are not possible under real-world physics). I don't trust him because he never uses a ccanon source, the models of ISDs are just that, models, things that don't show all the armanent on such a large ship. No offense, but you're pulling a double standard. If I neglect to provide a canon source, I get called for it. But if Jim doesn't provide one, he is automatically trusted for no reason. That's a double standard if I've ever seen one. And from his edits, it shows he cannot be trusted because he doesn't use canon sources, just his on POV. Jack, you need to realize that and think about the information Jim is trying to post. The canon dictates the MC80 cruiser was lighter armed than the ISD, yet with the armanent that Jim keeps posting, the MC80 has the higher degree of armanent. Plus, if he analyzed the model of the MC80, he'd find no armanent, thus he would edit the post to get it unarmed to conform to that analysis. That isn't canon information, nor is it using logic. That is defying canon.

   

This is a model of the ISD, point out the different calibers of turbolasers Jim. If he backs up his statements with G-Canon quotes, then that would be a source. But no, all he has is an "analysis of a model" which is done by a fan. Fan analysis are not canon sources.

Oh and only the *heavy* cannons are visible on an ISD or Venator. Does that mean other heavy cannons or medium types can't be in the trenches of the ships? Does what Jim say sounds logically possible for a mile long ship, to be armed with mostly small weapons that aren't suitable for ship to ship combat?-Rob
 * Rob, physics can be applied to certain things in Star Wars, like turbolasers and the superlasers. And another thing, he could have very well analyzed a close-up shot of an ISD model, not the images you provided. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 19:47, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Jack, what don't you get? You actually think it is logical that an ISD, an mile long ship is so sparsley armed with large weapons? And I put a closeup of a model up, didn't you look at it? Plus, how the hell can you see a physical difference between light and medium turbolasers *from a model*. He has *no source*, just speculation. Jack, quit pulling this double standard and think for yourself. Is it logical that an ISD is so lightly armed? Even though canon says that they outgun MC80's? According to Jim's analysis, the MC80 outguns an ISD. That does not sound logical and defies canon.-Rob
 * Not really. ISD-Is were maily used when there weren't many major threats to Palpatine's Empire. When the Alliance came along with the Mon Calamari cruisers, the Imperial Navy realized that the MC80 outgunned an ISD-I, so they started to make ISD-IIs. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 20:50, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
 * According to the canon, ISDI's outgunned the MC80 class. The only thing that made the MC80s a contender was their prodigal shielding. ISDI's were the mainstay of the Imperial fleet for over 20 years, and were heavily armed. It doesn't make sense that they only had a large number of light weapons. Plus, according to Jim's edits, the ISDII isn't even a contender for the MC80 class.-Rob
 * Where does it say that the ISD-I outgunned MC80s? Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 20:54, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
 * It was said in the article here, and the databank. It wasn't until the Republic Star Destroyer and MC90 class were developed that the Rebellion/New Republic had realistic ships to combat ISDI's and II's.-Rob
 * Could we get an exact quote from the Databank? Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 20:56, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
 * It doesn't give an exact number of turbolasers like the article does, but they were converted *passenger liners*. Not intended for the military role as well as the ISDI, and nor did it have enough firepower to contend with them, it's main advantages against an ISDI was it's sublight speed and it's powerful shielding. The Republic Star Destroyer and MC90's were warships built from the ground up, with realistic requirements for a battleship. Thus, the Rebellion/New Republic had two ships that could realistically counter the Imperial's. A lot of EU books also pointed out the MC80's weakness in firepower compared to the ISDI.-Rob
 * The sources from the article itself were the The Essential Guide to Vehicles and Vessels and Rebel Alliance Sourcebook:
 * "These cruisers were the first line of large capital ship deployed by the Rebel Alliance. The entry of the Mon Calamari into the Alliance ensured that the undergunned and outnumbered Rebel fleet would posess the firepower capable to dealing with Imperial-class Star Destroyers.

While their armaments were less than those found on the Empire's Star Destroyers, the shielding capability was far more advanced. The multiple backup shields and multiple shield generators ensured that a Calamari cruiser could last in combat against more heavily armed opponents."

For the record, I only agreed believing the model had been thoroughly checked beforehand. If it hasn't, we need to analyze it. VT-16 21:43, 19 May 2006 (UTC) 
 * It's pretty impossible to tell what is a light turbolasers and what is an heavy one from a model. Fan Analysis is also non-canon.-Rob
 * Okay, stop adding the pictures that aren't helping this. And to end this, let's have JimRaynor double-check the model. And Rob, the analysis of the model of something that was in the movies is not fanon at all. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 22:57, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I'll stop adding pictures, but an model isn't an accurate source since there is no basis on how to tell the guns apart. What a fan says should not be made applicable here, we should only take a canon source, which is a book, or a quote from the movies themselves, etc. And again, is it logical for such a large ship to be armed so sparsley?-Rob.
 * Again, the ISD-Is were used in a time of relative "peace", without a lot of uprisings against the Empire. And if there is a distinct difference between guns on an ISD-I model from the movie, then it is a canonical source, no matter who notices it. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 02:08, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Note that the Venator-class Star Destroyer explicitly only has 2 medium turbolasers, so there is precedent for having very few medium weapons. The medium turbolasers on a Venator are also fairly obvious. -Vermilion 03:22, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Looking at the exhibition shots taken for Tech Comm, it's hard to make out any gun details on the Devestator and the Avenger. Looking at the pictures there, you can see the 3 heavy twin turbolasers (only one side had any details, because the other was used to attach to the crane that moved the model) and one heavy ion cannon. There is also a quad-cannon turret in the small brim notch, as well as at least three guns on the dorsal side of the ship (beneath the first terrace). These were all identified in SW:ICS, along with the small "bulbs" inside the brim being turbolaser stations. I'll have those pages online later today.
 * For the Avenger, there is no cross-section piece. The only discernable things on the model itself, are the four 8-gun batteries and a twin-turbolaser on the rear brim notch. There's towers similar to the XX-9 turbos, but it's difficult to tell anything concrete from them.
 * This all adds up to 6 heavy turbolasers, 2 ion cannons, 3 axial defense turrets and 2 quadguns on the ISD-I + a multitude of brim turbolasers that weren't counted up by the ICS, only mentioned, and 8 heavy turbolaser batteries and 2 turbolasers identified on the ISD-II. And looking at that ISD-II model, there's at least one axial defense turret on it.
 * In addition to those seen on the model, are those seen firing in the films, many of which are located in the brim and some on the ventral side (most famously seen firing in the opening scene of ANH.) VT-16 09:54, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

The examination of a piece of plastic as a basis for a definitive argument of the ship's armament is an extreme example of shoddy methodology. It assumes that every weapon is visible on the model (which is not guaranteed), and that every weapon type is clearly distinguishable and definitively identified (which they aren't). If the examination of the model is the definitive source, then it needs work, as a visual interpretation is, after all, only an educated guess, and some significant details could very easily be missed or misinterpreted. Accepting someone's work, even when in doubt, based on the quality or quantity of previous work, is a hideous, corruptive practice. Also, if this ship is indeed armed so lightly, then it is one of the worst designed ships ever. It needs weapons of significant firepower in great quantities, down most of its length on either side, that can at least threaten another, similar ship, if it is to be significant in naval combat, let alone perform all the other offensive functions ascribed to it. The armament described here is possible, but fails to make the ship a powerful offensive weapon. Even if the ship was designed during a time of relative peace, it is designed to be a warship. Little immediate need for it doesn't mean that any power can afford to build sissy warships. If warships were designed for peacetime, they couldn't very well serve during wartime. - Ren
 * So, VT-16, in your opinion, should JimRaynor look over the ISD-I and ISD-II models? Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 11:55, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
 * So, you're saying that examining a model of something from the movie isn't good enough to be canon? That makes no sense, since it was used in the movie itself. The movies are the highest forms of canon, not the Databank, not the Essential and New Essential Guides, etc. If a model can clearly show the entire armament for the ISD-I, then that's the armament for the ISD-I. Plus, Palpatine was overconfident. He didn't consider anything a threat after most of the Jedi were killed. At the time when the ISD-Is were produced, there was no Alliance to Restore the Republic&mdash;therefore, no major threat to Palpatine's Empire. The Mon Calamari hadn't donated their Star Cruisers to the Rebel Fleet yet because there wasn't a Rebel Fleet yet. The ISD-Is didn't have to be heavily armed during the time when there weren't many threats. Plus, take the line from A New Hope: "Dangerous to your starfleet, Commander, not to this battlestation." What does that suggest? It suggests that the Rebel Fleet outgunned the Imperial warships. This entire argument is pointless. Even without the model being used as a canonical source, that one line suggests that the ISD-Is were outgunned already. And remember, that was before the Mon Calamari cruisers were even thought up of for the Original Trilogy. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 19:40, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Actually, the ISD-I was basically meant to keep the peace, and did so for almost 20 years. It was after the threat of the Alliance was taken seriously, that they started producing ISD-IIs and big dreadnoughts like the Executors. I need to hear Jim's explanation for "medium turbolasers" before I say anything else. Afaik, the port and starboard batteries were heavy turbolasers and ion cannons on the ISD-I. VT-16 19:55, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Exactly. The ISD-Is were meant to keep the peace, not fight wars. The ISD-IIs were meant for war. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 19:58, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Why were they used extensively as warships? As *flagships* to the fleet then? And again, is it logical for such a large ship to be so sparsley armed? And, according to Jim, the ISDII was *lighter armed* than the ISDI. Does that sound logical?

From the article itself: "They were massive, powerful warships capable of laying waste to entire worlds (provided those worlds did not have planetary shields). The Imperial-class became infamous as the prime enforcer of Imperial rule."

How can a ship of this size and so lightly armed lay waste to an entire planet? And again, how does a fan determine the armanent, differentiating from the guns of an ISD from just looking at a model? What this is isn't logical, it isn't following canon. And again, if you just look at the models, most fleet ships *won't even appear to be armed*.-Rob
 * Nonetheless, the time when ISD-Is were produced was a time of "peace" with no major threats to the Empire. They didn't need to be heavily armed to be flagships at the time. Rob, you are so focused on proving everyone wrong that you're ignoring things from the movies&mdash;the highest sources of canon. And stop constantly editing your paragraph. I just got about twenty edit conflict messages. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 20:14, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
 * According to many sources, the ISD I was heavily armed and armored. And again, according to Jim's analysis, the ISD-II was *lighter armed* than the ISDI. You still haven't answered if this is logical or not. The movies also don't give any regards to the firepower or weapons compliment, none at all. The movies don't give any direct quotes. Thus, analysing the model won't do.-Rob
 * The model CAN'T clearly show the armament. That is, in fact, the entire point of that section of my post.  The fact that there were no threats to the Empire at that point doesn't change the fact that it was a warship, even when used to keep the peace.  If the fact that warships today are used to keep the peace isn't enough of an example for you, there's also the philosophy of peace through overwhelming firepower that the Empire adopted early on - see Death Star for more details.  Also, the line that's being cited...  A little girl with a kitchen knife is dangerous to the greatest martial artist alive.  It doesn't mean she's superior. - Ren
 * Yet you're neglecting this: "Dangerous to your starfleet, Commander, not to this battlestation." The Empire knew their Star Destroyers weren't armed enough to deal with the Rebel Alliance! Why can't you realize this? Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 20:20, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Except how I'm not forgetting it, and there's nothing to realize. Just because the Rebels were DANGEROUS doesn't mean they had more or bigger guns. - Ren
 * How did you make that connection? Jack, again, is it logical for such a large ship to be so sparsly armed? And the fact that many, many canon sources say that the ISDI was more heavily armed than the MC80, it doesn't make sense to be so lightly armed. And again, with such a small armanent, how can an ISD I, alone, decimate an entire planet?-Rob

Here's the pages from SW:ICS I promised:  

They apparantly went through the models while gathering info on what to write. Now, there's many of those smaller turbolaser "bumps" on the ship, but they're not counted up in the book. Doesn't say anything specific about their smaller weaponry. VT-16 20:43, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Un, those pictures won't show.-Rob
 * Photobucket POS. I'm gonna try something else. VT-16 20:48, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Fixed now. :) VT-16 20:53, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I think it's logical to assume a Star Destroyer is more heavily equipped than it may appear in the movie. I mean, if you want to use the movies as the only reference for what is canon and what isn't, then we must heavily edit the Battle of Endor article. The movie only shows a dozen or Star Destroyers, whereas it has been established there were far more vessels, on both sides of the conflict. To say the Star Destroyer is only lightly equipped with turbolasers and other weaponry is nonsense: the vessel is behemoth, and if it doesn't have enough weapons to at least cover itself, what purpose does it serve? You can't have huge gaps in your defense - and due to the size of the Star Destroyer, it requires more weaponry. Let's also take the Base Delta Zero arguement - do you really think a single Star Destroyer can lay waste to an entire planet in the matter of a few hours with such light armament? It would take a substantially longer period of time. So few turbolasers wouldn't be able to cover as much ground. Finally, the Star Destroyers were not developed during a time of peace - in fact, the first Imperator was under production at the time of the Clone Wars, no, and was rolled off just afterwards. Not to mention, Palpatine knew there would not be complete peace - he was well aware his military would have to continue onward and subjugate a countless number of systems, and bring them under Imperial domination. Also, wasn't Palpatine aware of the existence of the Yuuzhan Vong long before the Clone Wars, and was making preparations to combat them? Why wouldn't he want the baddest, most powerful weapons available to him? --Danik Kreldin 20:47, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
 * It's not about disregarding EU info, just the parts that contradict the movies. VT-16 20:51, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
 * About the armanent, there is nothing to contradict since the movies don't tell us how heavily armed or armored an ISD is. And again, if you just analyzed the models, the Nebulon-B Frigates and MC80 cruisers in the movies wouldn't be armed at all.
 * Thanks for posting those scans, since it proves a point. True, there are eight heavy turrets seen on a Star Destroyer, but that also says that it is bristling with turbolasers and ion cannons. Nothing saying light weaponry at all.-Rob
 * Can we end this pointless discussion now? Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 22:54, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
 * How do you want to end this? Accepting the canon and logic or accepting the fan analysis?-Rob
 * We should have the models re-analyzed and then compare it to what other sources say. If there are images of the models from the movies that have images of all the weaponry on it and have the analysis confirmed by others, then it should be accepted as the weapons count. Remember, this isn't about saying what's canon and what's not, it's about finding the correct weapons count by using canonical sources. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 12:41, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
 * And Models usually don't show all the weapons, Battleship and Carrier models sometimes do not give every single solitary armanent of the ship. And again, if we only analyzed the models, every single Rebel ship would appear to be unarmed.-Rob
 * But we're not analyzing the Rebel ships. We're going to re-anyalyze the ISD-I and ISD-II models and compare the figures to what other sources say. For God's sake, let us try this, Rob. Don't just disregard a plan if you don't like it. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 15:14, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Fan analysis can only show so much, and I've gone over the photos and they don't yield anything else external that's unambigious. If anything, most of the other weaponsystems are internal, like some on the Venator in ROTS. Additionally, There are also the two parabolic cannons in front of the main hangarbay, which shot after the Tantive IV. VT-16 17:12, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
 * What photos? Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 19:56, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Photos taken during model-exhibitions and donated to the Tech Commentaries: VT-16 21:23, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Sorry I haven't posted over the last couple of days, I've been busy with other things. Can anybody tell me what exactly is the issue right now? The SWTC site already points out all the large visible weapons that Saxton was able to find by examining the ISD model (he also acknowledges that small bumps, etc. may be laser cannons). This anon who is disputing it hasn't actually raised any actual point from what I see, he just says that Saxton's analysis isn't canon (as if we can't use our eyes and just look at the G-canon model). As for whether the ISD is lightly armed, I don't believe it is. The Venator only has 8 dual heavy turbolasers and 2 dual medium turbolasers. The ISD I has 6 dual (very) heavy turbolasers, 2 heavy dual ion cannons, 2 quad heavy turbolasers (approximately the same size as the main turrets flanking the bridge), 3 triple medium turbolasers, and two more medium turbolasers near the hangar. That's significantly more than what the Venator has. Furthermore, the number of guns doesn't matter as much with energy weapons, since the ship's entire reactor output can be diverted into the heavy weapons (ROTS ICS). The WEG style of armament (dozens and dozens of identical weapons all over the ship) is just wrong. G-canon shows that Star Destroyers and other ships have several heavy weapons, and a number of medium weapons. JimRaynor55 22:52, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 23:53, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Of course you agree with him, you always do. For a 1600 meter ship, that is not enough heavy weaponry. And no, I am not clinging onto the WEG, logic ditates it has a lot more heavy and medium weapons. And, the ICS scans we see above show no indication of light weaponry. Meaning, an ISD-I is only armed with heavy and medium weapons. And again, Jim, according to you, the ISDII is *lighter armed* than the ISDI and Victory-class Star Destroyer. And, the ISD-I according to you isn't as heavily armed as the MC80 cruiser, which defies canon.-Rob
 * Where are you getting this idea that a ship has to be covered wall-to-wall with guns? A lot of the inside of the ISDs are dedicated to support ships and ground craft, then there's troop quarters and reactor-areas. Going by the model and SWICS, the ISD-I has a few big guns, a few medium guns and many small guns lining the brims. With the possibility of putting all its power into the guns, that seems to be enough. It's a versatile destroyer, not a main battleship or battlecruiser, the few ships of this kind the Empire's got, are gonna have a greater need for weaponry than tens of thousands of destroyers. As for the number of guns, the weapons-slots on the Home One model count more than a dozen on one side, and being elongated horisontally, they most likely hold more than one cannon each. Problem is, this slot-arrangement give them lesser firearcs than Imperial ships. VT-16 07:33, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Rob, stop saying what you want to have in the article already. You don't need to have weaponry on every single spot on a Star Destroyer. And the fact that it has less weapons than a MC80 means nothing. As said above, a Star Destroyer could divert all power to its weapons when needed. Therefore, you don't need a million weapons to have a large firepower. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 11:03, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Famous And Known Imperial-class Star Destroyers
mr. nebulax asked whether this list should be removed and replaced by a category:Imperial-class link. I think we should keep a SMALL list of ISDs which are well known in the real-world, like Avenger, Devastator and Chimaera. plus a link to the category with the 100+ ISDs. --BaldFett 12:18, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I have to disagree with keeping some. By keeping some, someone will, without a doubt, start adding more. It's best to get rid of the list and have the category at the bottom. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 12:31, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
 * good point, how about

"==Known ships==

For a complete list of Imperial-class Star Destroyers, both mark I as II see category:Imperial-class Star Destroyers."

--BaldFett 12:43, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
 * That's not even needed. All we need is the category at the bottom. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 12:44, 20 June 2006 (UTC)


 * the "known ships" or "known vessels" thing is done on a lot of ship type pages. just a category on the bottom is not very easy to find for general visitors who quicky want to find a list of known ISDs. it a simple gesture and more in line with other ship types (BTW, the details from the list on the Executor-class Star Dreadnought page should be removed too then) --BaldFett 12:51, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
 * While the lists are done on a lot of article, most are being replaced with the proper category. And yes, the Executor-class should definitely be removed. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 12:53, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
 * but just a category at the bottom of a very large page seems so anonymous for such an important part of ISD information. or ship types in general, I think that if there's just a few ships known, like with the Firespray it's okay with a little list, otherwise a mention of a seperate category. --BaldFett 13:21, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Not many known ships: List and no category. Many known ships: No list and category. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 14:34, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Turbolaser bolt tracing results
I was just rewatching the relevant scenes in ANH and TESB to count actual fired guns and matching things with the model photos on SWTC. Here are my results

ANH:

In the overflight sequence (the first pass), the first couple of shots come from off screen; the next half dozen appear to come from a pair of invisible guns below the bow (in the differently textured section); long pause (relatively); then two bolts from each side fired from *aft* of the hangar aperture; two that must come from the starbord forward corner of the hangar bay, and one from the opposite side location. This gives me at least six ventral guns, none of which have actual model features that can be distinguished.

In the front angle sequence, the first shots come from somewhere ahead of the hangar aperture (each side), possibly a little further forward than the previously mentioned hangar guns, but definitely aft of the forward guns. Next shots are from the aft end of the major brim notch, specifically the top edge of the starboard side and the lower edge of the port side; then two bolts from the extreme tip of the bow (one appears to be from the upper edge, and one from the lower); then an interesting one from near the forward end of the reactor bulge, just off center the centerline to the port side; then another bolt from each major notch; one from the bow tip again; one from each *minor* notch; two from the ventral guns near the forward  corners of the hangar, then two from the lower edge of the bow tip and one from the upper; one more bolt from each side of the hangar corners (a little further aft than the last set); one more from the bow (nearly off screen); and finally two more from the center (?) of the major notch.

Direct observation of the film gives me at least nine brim trench guns, arrayed three to a side and three at the bow; and at least nine ventral surface guns, one of which is off the centerline and may be matched by a symmetrical unseen gun.

The next opportunity to see a similar ship in action is when the Millennium Falcon is outrunning the blockade - two guns with a rapid rate of fire are targetting the Falcon and shoot at least eleven bolts each (most in discrete pairs) in the three seconds of this sequence - they're placed at the extreme tip of the bow and are possibly different from the previously observed bow guns.

No further observation was possible in ANH, since the ships do not appear again.

TESB:

In TESB, in the initial star destroyer chase, only two star destroyer guns fire, and they're either off screen or from very near the bow, ventral side. The next opportunity is when the Avenger is chasing the Falcon after Vader meets the bounty hunters: One bolt from near the reactor bulb, one from the top edge of the bow, two from near the starboard major notch, one from the bottom edge of the bow, one from just aft of the bow, port side, another from near the port major notch, more from the bow, one from the starboard aft corner of the hangar aperture.

In the head-on shot, there are discretely disstinguishable guns firing: on the dorsal centerline just aft of the bow, starboard of the bow just aft of the tip, port side a little further aft.

I counted six, possibly seven minor guns firing at the Falcon, between the forward edge of the starboard major notch and the tip of the bow in the hyperdrive failure external shot; another eight bolts from at least five emplacements on the port side in the same area (bow not visible in shot), plus one from the center of the major notch in the next sequence. Finally, two guns fire at the Falcon from the bridge structure or the teraces (same guns firing multiple shots). Note that inspection of the model yields inconclusive results regarding exactly what is a gun - the only things I can almost certainly guarantee are guns are a pair of turrets on ach side of the extreme tip of the bow, in the trench.

An estimate, assuming roughly equal distance between guns for the whole length of the trench minus notches, would be 24-25 light guns per side, plus some medium weapons (4/side?) in the major and minor notches. At least five guns on the ventral surface, and an unknown number on the dorsal side. As is, I can confirm the existance of nearly twenty guns on each ship outside of the main battery and the minor trench guns...

I'm leaving ROTJ out for the moment, since there's just too much action and too many different ships to count everything...--Winchester 22:01, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Not to be rude, but could you please sum that up? I don't have enough time to read it all. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 03:49, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Sure, at least for the Devastator: At least nine ventral guns, plus three at the bow, one in each minor notch and two in each major notch, all used against Tantive IV in ANH. Two bow-mounted rapid-fire guns (fire linked) used against the Falcon, also in ANH. Total of 20 guns observed. I'll need to re-study the Avenger sequence, it seems, since I couldn't summarize what was seen myself after reading what I wrote...--Winchester 14:05, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, remember that the ANH Star Destroyers were ISD-Is, and TESB Star Destroyers were mainly ISD-IIs. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 14:40, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
 * There's also the small matter of the targets in the two films being of a completely different scale - in ANH, the target is a 150-meter corvette, which would pretty much shrug off any weapons capable of disabling the Falcon without destroying it. What we're seeing in ANH is likely medium turbolaser fire, with the guns in TESB being lighter anti-starfighter weapons. Winchester 22:45, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
 * True. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 00:16, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Re-starting the armament debate...
Several cannon sources such as novels (Jedi Search for instance) and supplements like Essential Guide all list the ISD-I's weapons as 60 turbolasers and 60 ion cannons. Nothing contradicts this except for hypothetical model comparisons. How can we still list the weapons complement at around a dozen heavy weapons? Yes, yes, I know. It was debated quite thouroughly above. I just can't get over the point of EU references. Besides all the WEG stuff, the Essential Guides, and all the technical manuals, we have a specific reference in KJA's Jedi Search that explicitly says the ISD-I is armed with 60 TB and 60 IC. The arguement over the Star Dreadnought term was made many times using a much more obscure EU reference than that, how can we ignore such a wealth of material that points to the traditional 60/60 armaments scheme? I_am_Nerd While I greatly respect your additions to Wookipedia and admire your ability to sign your name much better than me, I have to resist this viewpoint. The model was analyzed by people not officially affiliated with LF based on pure speculation and conjuncture. To me this strikes of the same kind of "evidence" based on examination of still photos that belongs purely in the realm of fanon speculation. While the weapons placements that are visible may be limited in number, we have direct film evidence (ie the Millenium Falcon and some Prequal ships) that recessed weapons are common. Therefore, until a liscened representitive flatout states, "This is it," we should rely on the overwelming EU evidence towards the 60/60 loadout. On the other hand, I don't know how to signature my own name so what do I know. I_am_Nerd Excellant point.--I am Nerd 14:57, 29 July 2006 (UTC) Whoa, didn't mean to imply Saxon-bashing earlier. I am strictly talking terms of cannonicity. Jedi Search clearly says, 60/60 on the weapons. Are they all the same? Who knows. I would be willing to shut up if the weapons box was modified to say something like, "60 Turbolasers, likely of different sizes and functions." Or some such. As a "retcon nerd" myself, I think if I can admit Star Dreadnoughts exist because they are backed by cannon then I hope others can accept a ISD-I has sixty turbolasers. SPOON!!--I am Nerd 15:24, 29 July 2006 (UTC) I would vote barrells. That would be a rough split between heavy and medium/light guns for the TB's. It seems to be implied in most sources that the TB's are the primary punching power and the IC's tend to be used on smaller ships and possibly fighters. Medium to light range IC's with just under 30 medium/light TB's ought to fit under the "numerous other weapons" listing right? We could highlight the heavy weapons and then add afterwords "along with numerous other such-and-such to equal such-and-such a number of guns." Or something. --I am Nerd 14:27, 30 July 2006 (UTC) Sorry, I meant to say only light turbolasers not medium and light turbolasers.--I am Nerd 14:30, 30 July 2006 (UTC) I think your right about not changing the box. I propose adding "Among its 120 weapons emplacements were" in front of "Numerous smaller and medium guns / were mounted around the ship to ward off attacks against lesser ships..." and then splitting into a new sentence at the hash mark I inserted. This is in the section covering secondary weapons. Also, does anyone have a scan of the complete SD cross-section? I haven't seen it. Peace. --I am Nerd 13:49, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Not this debate again... Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 21:29, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
 * But these current figures came from the model used in the movies, if I am not mistaken. And considering the movies are the highest form of canon, it's only logical that what is shown on the models used in the movies is the exact number, regardless of what other sources say. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 14:11, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
 * While the way to sign a post is described on the edit-page (below the "Save page" button) I'm afraid the argument about the number of weapons on an ISD might be harder to solve. I agree with you compleately, canon is canon. The analysis of in-movie models can not be taken as definite. The issue of hidden emplacement (sheilded would be a better word) aside, who can judge what a turbolaser enplacement looks like on a model with a scaling factor of ~500. Charlii 14:45, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Just want to make something clear: I do not want to make this a new pointless dabate over Saxtons work. No, I don't support many of his theories. Yes, I consider his published works as canon as everything else, and in their own way very well done. What I oppose in this article is the comment in the BTS section that simply says "all the old sources are wrong, just because" which really stings in the eyes of a retcon nerd like myself. Has it ever been directly stated that these 60 tb are identical, or is that just conjecture for the sake of gameplay mechanics? Remember to not say that they are different is not the same thing as saying that they are identical. Certain point of view... If so, then there is really no continuity error, we just don't know where the last 20 or so turbolasers are placed. Charlii 15:08, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Those stats are as canon as it gets, from the Original Trilogy Incredible Cross-Sections. Maybe the 60/60 total should be mentioned in the box, it should be mentioned in some way at least. And that BTS is just plain wrong. I wont try to edit anything before more people have commented on it, since the topic is somewhat disputed. Charlii 16:34, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
 * This topic is disputed because no one knows what is what. But do you really think an Imperial warship would only have 60 turbolasers and 60 ion cannons? This is why we don't use those figures, because they make no sense. Plus, if someone at Lucasfilm managed to tell us the weapons count from the models, that would count as canon from the movies. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 17:03, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
 * maybe a section behind the scenes could be written but face it, as Jack said no imperial battle cruiser would have such a small amount of weapons, no way. And as it is this is just speculation, there is no point un it contiuning because it will not get anywhere Jedi Dude 17:05, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
 * And another thing: Have you ever considered that the 60 turbolasers/60 ion cannons could be the total amount of heavy, medium, and light turbolasers/total amount of heavy and other ion cannons? Also, Jedi Dude, I think I might have been wrong about the "small amount of weapons" thing. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 17:06, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
 * unthinkable? surely becasue that would mean, well it would mean a ISD isn't exactly a battle cruiser, more like a large chunk of metal with a few guns on it..Jedi Dude 17:09, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, I only suggested what I said as an end to this topic once and for all. "Numerous" could be any number, really. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 17:11, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Too lazy to really put in my opinion just now but you say 60/60 is too little yet the numbers we have just now are fine? Odd...I coulda swore 60 turbolasers was more than 20 heavies and 11 medium, with "numerous" smaller ones...as we have it now...strange logic that you're using there. &mdash;Jaymach Ral'Tir (talk) 17:18, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Exactly, the number of weapons does not indicate firepower in any way. We know that the main canons of a VenStar can use all the power from the reactor in one shot, I don't see why the ISD should be different. I agree that it must have more point-defense weapons, but those aren't neccesarily turbos, and would have little inpact on the actual firepower. I don't see why the 60/60 figure can't be true. Charlii 17:26, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I admitted I was wrong about that, for God's sake! That's why I said "I think I might have been wrong about the "small amount of weapons" thing". Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 19:51, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Also, does anyone agree with my theory that the "Numerous light turbolasers and ion cannons" could be a number that, when added to the others, comes up with 60? Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 19:54, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I think that would be the best way to keep all statements canon and thus most people happy. The question is: are we counting barrells or emplacements? Charlii 19:56, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
 * What do you think we should count? Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 19:57, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't know. We have 31 guns in 15 towers/emplacements if I count correctly. Charlii 20:08, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Any suggestions from anyone on what to use? Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 20:09, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
 * What we have now for the "Numerous..." is fine, though. I don't think that should be changed. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 14:32, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
 * In order to prevent further conflicts, I think we should remove the "120" part for now. So, it would look like: "Among its weapons emplacements were..." Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 13:50, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Plenty of EU also referenced 8 km Executors. There, that's going to be my standard answer to everything from now on. I've had enough of these kind of debates. :P VT-16 09:51, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
 * That's why I'm compromising. ;) Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 13:22, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Taking a step back and looking at this, I really don't understand what the problem is here. Or at least, I can understand the problem... but I don't see why it's hard to deal with it...
 * 1.) The movie FX model has four twin turrets along one side of the superstructure - three of one design, one of a different design - plus two things that could be four-barrelled guns in the trenches, and a row of things that might be guns up the centerline in front of the superstructure. But in the films, we also see bolts coming from all over the hull.
 * 2.) Star Wars: Incredible Cross-Sections identifies the visible types of weapon respectively as "Heavy turbolaser turret" (the three turrets); "Heavy ion cannon turret" (the sungle turret); "Lateral quad-laser battery" (the trench guns); and "axial defence turrets" (the centerline guns). The turret guns are also described in attached text as "heavy blasters", and the "heaviest guns" carried.
 * 3.) Numerous other EU sources before and since ICS have said that the ISD-I's main armament consists of 60 TLs or TL batteries, and 60 ion cannon; the Star Wars Sourcebook describes TL batteries of five guns, with two in double mounts and one in a single, while the TLs are defined in the Essential Guide to Weapons and Technology as XX-9 heavy turbolasers. I suspect that we're talking about something along the lines of 12x5=60 individual guns, rather than 60x5=300 individual guns, but I'll have to check all the sources to be completely sure about this.
 * The problem comes when we attempt to resolve these three different pieces of evidence; but in terms of this wiki, this shouldn't be a problem. The nature of the canon material is quite simple: the movie FX model shows big turrets and some small guns; ICS says the turret guns are the ISD's "heaviest weapons"; but all other sources cite a homogenous battery of sixty XX-9s, not really discussed on ICS. And that's it. We can note that we don't know how to reconcile the ICS claim about the turrets being "heaviest" and the sixty XX-9s in all other sources, but in the absence of any official evidence, it would be fanon to do more or less than simply citing the canon evidence as it is, and maybe note the opposing fan interpretations neutrally in Behind the scenes.
 * I simply don't understand what the problem is, or what viable alternatives there could be to this approach... but I'm prepared to listen to other POVs. --McEwok 18:14, 2 August 2006 (UTC)


 * The problem is, we have the movies (the ISD didn't fire from "all over the hull", it was primarily from the two parabolic guns on the underside in the opening scene of ANH, for example), the models used in the movies, the sources that investigated the models, and sources that didn't and made the statistics up on their own. Treating them all equally, as you seem to suggest, is not viable, imho. The cross-section of the ISD-I movie model does not give credit to the same armament shown in WEG's sourcebooks. I think that should either take precedence, or the WEG guns should be considered as showing smaller, secondary guns, along the hull and side-trenches (since they were only mentioned, not counted in SW:ICS). VT-16 19:19, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
 * he EU sources that state that the ISD has 60 turbolasers (with some sources claiming them all to be heavy XX-9 turbolasers) aren't saying that it's part of the ship's armament, they quite clearly state that as the total armament. Stop trying to support WEG numbers that were apparently pulled out of thin air. JimRaynor55 19:32, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
 * For God's sake, can't we just compromise already? And by the way, not everyone counts the models used in the films as sources. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 20:15, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
 * It's a fictional universe, everything is pulled out of the air. Sometimes thinner than usual, I can agree with you there. But as long as nobody from LFL slaps a N-canon label at the old WEG sources, they should be considered as canon as everything else. They don't really match the models in the movies? That is were the retcons come into play! Charlii 20:17, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Except that the WEG stats can't really be retconned. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 20:20, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
 * A partial retcon (using the number 60 as the total amount of turbos and calling some of the batteries XX-9s) is better than nothing, IMHO Charlii 20:32, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
 * But will it be retconned? Who knows. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 20:34, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Here's an idea: How about someone who regularly contributes on the starwars.com forums ask "Tasty Taste" aka Leland Chee about the armament. May not lead to anything, but it's an idea. Atarumaster88 20:41, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeah, but what if he sides with the WEG stats? But it's worth a try. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 20:42, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, as SFH would say, canon is canon. At least it would settle the issue for all of us "fleet junkies." I mean, I don't like the WEG either, having seen 60/60 in practically everything, but at least it would be definitive . . . unlike that stupid 8 km SSD debate. Atarumaster88 20:47, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I also say "canon is canon". ;) And still, Leland Chee could probably help end this once and for all. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 21:44, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Actually, that stupid SSD debate was definite, so it's a good example of getting a final answer. :P
 * A problem with asking Chee, is which set of armament will be archived in the Holocron? The one from WEG or the one from DK? I think they treat sources closest to the films as "higher on scale", which would mean the ICS numbers. I'll try asking anyway. VT-16 21:55, 2 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, I arrived late to the SSD debate and just watched/skimmed through it. Who knows? As long as we get an answer. Thanks. Atarumaster88 21:56, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Go ICS!! Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 21:57, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I seriously doubt Chee will give a straight answer. This is not to say that he has an agenda or is dishonest in any way. However, he has shown in the past that he's reluctant to elaborate on situations where C-canon EU is poorly researched and contradicts G-canon. Likely, he's under instructions from his superiors at LFL not to do or say anything that can make the EU look bad. JimRaynor55 23:23, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I thought of a way Chee could be asked without putting him in the position of choosing between the EU and films: Ask him if the full appearance of costumes, sets, and of course models used in the films, but only seen partially, not seen very clearly, or only seen from certain angles, is considered G-canon. Don't mention any contradictions, just try to find out how LFL regards these things. The answer to this question could also be useful for other things beyond this one little issue. I would ask myself, but Dark Moose froze my account following a debate. JimRaynor55 23:50, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
 * But what if he says those aren't sources? Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 23:54, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Then so be it. We're just looking for the "truth" of SW canon, as defined by the people who have the right to do so (LFL). That doesn't mean whoever is going to ask should give up questioning if he says "no, those aren't sources," these kind of questions might be confusing to someone who doesn't care about these little debates. Just politely ask him again to clarify if the appearance of props, etc. seen in the films (but maybe not clearly) is considered separate from the movie's visual G-canon. JimRaynor55 00:02, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
 * And if he says no, this debate continues. It's better to ask him both questions. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 00:03, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
 * McEwok, why on Earth did you make the "Weaponry" section OOU? Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 23:52, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
 * It wasn't OOU! Things like The Star Wars Sourcebook, Essential Guide to Weapons and Technology, and, according to recent discussion at starwars.com, Incredible Cross-Sections, are all in-universe, and can thus be referred to from that POV. However, given that I confused you, I'm fine to keep those references out of the main text. --McEwok 01:04, 5 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Those books are OOU sources, McEwok. Therefore, the only places where they belong in articles are the "Behind the scenes" and "Sources" section, not the main article. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 01:06, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Which are OOU? And why? Yes, they exist in reality, but they should be read as being from the GFFA. It's not important, though: your reaction shows that it was confusing people, and it's not necessary anyway. --McEwok 01:09, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I mostly have to agree with Jack: though some Star Wars sources do exist in some form IU, it's not always clear what form they appear in. (Arhul Hextrophon's report to Mon Mothma, for example, may have contained a different number for the SSD's size than WEG's Imperial Sourcebook.  8) )  Questions of unreliable sources are best shoved into the BtS sections.  On the other hand, putting what he wrote in present tense was acceptable: in that passage, he was writing from the perspective of someone reading the article.  (I'm only speaking as just another editor here, of course.) &mdash;Silly Dan (talk) 01:17, 5 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Except that section is an in-universe section, not a "Behind the scenes" section. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 14:01, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
 * This is ridiculous. McEwok, your "differing analysis" basically amounts to putting C-canon over G-canon. Just from watching the first few minutes of ANH, I was able to see three different types of weapons on the ISD: the two turbolasers near the hangar, the heavy quad turbolasers in the side trenches, and the small gun that tracked C-3PO and R2D2's escape pod. All of this is in the movie; so claims that the models used in filming might not be canon don't even come into play. Clearly the WEG claim that ISDs have 60 identical turbolasers is false. JimRaynor55 04:25, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 14:50, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
 * If we go by the belief that all sources are in-universe, then the Dorling Kindersley line of books still come out on top. Most WEG sourcebooks are not only written out-of-universe, with an emphasis for rules and statistics specifically for gameplayers in real-life, but their in-universe parts are mostly written by people representing either one side or another (Rebel Alliance/New Republic/Galactic Empire) in a specific timeframe. The DK books have no allegiance, and point out things happening on both sides, unbeknownst to either one faction or both. And I've yet to see a WEG drawing that lists the armament of ISDs like the SW:ICS book and at the same time follow the movie-models. VT-16 18:32, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't think that the belief that all sources are in-universe should be allowed here. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 19:22, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Star by Star - "the flash of the star destroyers 60 turbolasers..." does this help in anyway? Jedi Dude 19:55, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Not really, because it doesn't say the specific types of turbolasers. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 19:58, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, here is a quote from a book published in 2004, The New Essential Guide to Weapons and Technology, page 71, paragraph 3, lines 1-3. Now presenting to the jury what has been marked as Defense Exhibit B: "The Imperial Star Destroyer is equipped with sixty XX-9 heavy turbolasers grouped into small banks located the length of the starship. . ." I do prefer 60-60, but basically what this means to me is that we have a continuity mess. At this point, I believe we need to hear from a "higher court" because at this time we cannot rule due to the conflicting sources. Sorry about the legal terminology. Atarumaster88 03:32, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I think the issue is the kind of turbolasers/ion cannons. I believe there are 60 total turbolasers and 60 total ion cannons, but the issue is about what kind and are they light, medium, or heavy ones. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 11:23, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
 * If they are located along the length of the ship, they are the smaller turbolasers seen in SW:ICS, and consist of bulbs sticking out of the trench area of the ISD. VT-16 13:24, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Did you ever talk to Chee? Atarumaster88 14:31, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't think anyone did, yet. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 20:03, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Tried to get an answer twice on the "VIP" thread, but no-one answered. The only thing left now would be to retcon the WEG armament as partially big guns and partially the lesser guns consistent with the ones on the ICS diagram. There is already one source that referenced the 60/60 armament but without subscribing "heavy turbolasers" or "heavy ion cannons" to any of them, so there's a precedence. I also looked at the ICS diagrams for the Acclamator and Venator classes, and it's the same there as on the Imperial diagram: the big guns are either placed on the outside where they have a big line of fire, or one the inside, taking up a lot of space. There's no such thing as "heavy turbolasers" cluttering up the ship, smaller guns are the most numerous. If we can get the two sources to match this, then that would be it. VT-16 12:53, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, I am not trying to start an edit war, and I'm sure this point has been discussed already, but aren't the ICS older than the New Essential Guides? According to two of the New Essential Guides (Vehicles/Vessels and Weapons/Technology)- both of which are fairly recent publications, an Imperial-I Star Destroyer has sixty XX-9 heavy turbolasers. (Page 71 in W/T and 142 in V/V). Those same sources also say that it has sixty NK-7 ion cannons. In The NEw Essential Guide to Weapons and Technology, both weapons systems are pictured in a turreted array. I guess the big question boils down to this: Are the movie models G-canon? If they are, then we have to go with the ICS armament, which doesn't make as much sense to me, as A) Many, many EU sources use 60/60, B) It totally messes up the balance of power on starships if all of a sudden a Dreadnaught or Mon Cal cruiser has as many weapons as an ISD, C) If movie models were all considered G-canon, we'd have problems like the Millennium Falcon couldn't contain its insides and all Rebel capital ships would be virtually unarmed. Yes, the amount of guns does matter with energy weapons. Not for sheer destructiveness, but for ability to engage multiple targets, direct fire along multiple angles of a starship, and for redundancy. If an ISD only had about 20 main guns, all one would have to do is knock out the shields on one side, use a proton torp or two to disable the main battery on that side, and then sit along the weakened side until the ISD was destroyed. That's too easy.  Atarumaster88  [[Image:Jedi_Order.jpg|20px]] ( Audience Chamber ) 14:27, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Let's remember that the Imperial I was built in a time where only pirates and smugglers were threats. The Star Destroyers didn't need a lot of heavy weapons to bring them down. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 20:36, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Likewise, let's also remember that the threat of a resurgent Separatist movement was touted to the public- such as the resurgence of Gizor Dellso. Let's also not forget that Palpatine had to quell numerous internicine (sp?) conflicts, as evidenced in Specter of the Past and Vision of the Future. And as 25,000 of them were built, certainly some of them were most likely built during a period of rising sedition, as evidenced by the Journal of the 501st in Battlefront II. Let's not forget other possible menaces such as the Ssi-ruuk, and Palpatine may have even known about the Yuuzhan Vong. He did mention extra-galactic threats as a need for a strong navy. And pirates and smugglers gave the Imperial Navy- albeit a pretty clunky bunch- a good drubbing at the Battle of Nar Shaddaa. All of this has little to do with the fact that 2 New Essential Guides support a 60 XX-9/60 NK-7 armament, as does the vast majority of EU works I've come across, which is pretty much all the Bantam books and some of the Del Rey ones as well, etc. Atarumaster88  [[Image:Jedi_Order.jpg|20px]] ( Audience Chamber ) 21:14, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Except things from the movies are the highest form of canon. Models would be something like that. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 02:41, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Is everything from the movies (like models) considered the highest form of canon? Elsewhere I had heard that thing such as blasters moving faster than light were more like filmography than canon. This was on Talk:Blaster. I mean, I know SSD length was determined by scale model, but wouldn't that make all Rebel Mon Cal cruisers unarmed by that standard? Atarumaster88  [[Image:Jedi_Order.jpg|20px]] ( Audience Chamber ) 02:55, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't think so. The point is, there can still be 60 turbolasers and 60 ion cannons, but it's the exact type of turbolasers and ion cannons that's in question. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 12:28, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, I still smell a continuity error, but for now, then the armament should be listed as "60 turbolasers and 60 ion cannons of varying sizes/yields. We then can discuss the 'known' main battery weapons." Does that sound reasonable? Atarumaster88  [[Image:Jedi_Order.jpg|20px]] ( Audience Chamber ) 14:39, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
 * No. Currently, it is stated in a way where both versions are used. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 14:56, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
 * From what I see, it still looks like the ICS armament is still slightly favored but it's not a big enough deal for me to make a big stink of it. Atarumaster88  [[Image:Jedi_Order.jpg|20px]] ( Audience Chamber ) 16:53, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Probably the main reason it seems more favored is because the XX-9 turbolasers aren't on the ISD-I, at least not the "tradition" XX-9. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 20:31, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Sensor Globes or Shield Generators? (Revisited)
I was just wondering how you Wookieepedians finally decided to label those domes as shield generators (as I said from the beginning, citing the Rogue Squadron games and the X-Wing series).--Herbsewell 02:59, 22 September 2006 (UTC)


 * They are NOT shield generators primarily. They are sensor globes, with auxillary shield generators installed to protect them, per above. As stated above, GAME MECHANICS ARE NOT CANON! Yes, the events happened- but the mechanics are different. Otherwise, Delta-7 Aethersprites could carry seismic charges. No, they can't. Otherwise a single B-wing could destroy an Imperial Star Destroyer. If game mechanics were canon, A-wings would have regenerating concussion missiles, which defies the Law of Conservation of Mass/Law of Conservation of Energy completely. If by "X-wing series" you mean games, see the argument above. I don't remember reading about that in Mike Stackpole's books. Atarumaster88  [[Image:Jedi_Order.jpg|20px]] ( Audience Chamber ) 03:13, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Exactly. Games go against canon. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 11:13, 22 September 2006 (UTC)


 * No, I meant the book series.--Herbsewell 19:20, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't recall the games calling them shield generators anyway.--Darth OblivionComlink[[Image:Oldsith.png|30px]] 19:22, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
 * As to the books, it's probably a mistake on the authors' parts. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 19:29, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I seriously doubt that. Unless you have a page reference, I've read the X-wing series numerous times and nothing was ever stated about that. Atarumaster88  [[Image:Jedi_Order.jpg|20px]] ( Audience Chamber ) 00:09, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
 * You were talking to Herbsewell, correct? Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 02:11, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Correct. I never recall reading that in Stackpole's works. Atarumaster88  [[Image:Jedi_Order.jpg|20px]] ( Audience Chamber ) 06:11, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
 * The same goes for me. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 13:41, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Are we talking about ISD-72x shield generator domes or something else?--Darth OblivionComlink[[Image:Oldsith.png|30px]] 14:40, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, we're talking about them. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 19:57, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Wraith Squadron, page 371-72; "Are our shields up?" "Checking" The officer brought up a diagnostics readout.  He winced. "Sir they took out the shield generator domes when they hit our bridge."--Herbsewell 02:48, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Last time I checked, the X-wing series had two authors. They were Michael A. Stackpole AND Aaron Allston

"A very large explosion is coming out of the bridge area and it's causing several others to go as well; and one of the big radar domes up on top has been blown away, and that's spewing flames. It's pretty spectacular."
 * NOt to mention that in ROTJ they called em shield generator domes so there really isnt a debate. Ugluk: Destroyer of Redlinks 02:56, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
 * So...what source identifies them as sensor globes?--Darth OblivionComlink[[Image:Oldsith.png|30px]] 03:20, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Beats Me.--Herbsewell 03:43, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
 * When are they called shield generator domes in RotJ? I don't remember it. Plus, I believe the ICS for the Original Trilogy and the Inside the Worlds of the Star Wars Trilogy call them sensor domes. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 11:34, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
 * They are called sensor domes in the ITW:OT and SW:CL books from Dorling Kindersley and further back by Richard Edlund, one of the SFX artists on ROTJ:

- CINEFEX #13, p.55, 3 February 1983


 * There's your answer. They built the domes to resemble the real life radar domes on warships. The ITW books also added a slight retcon for the shield-thing, having parts on the dome be responsible for localised shield-generation, a sort of auxillary shield. VT-16 12:31, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
 * They couldn't be auxillary shields if once they were taken out from Implacable's bridge tower, the capital ship lost all of it's shields.--Herbsewell 17:11, 24 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Where's that from? Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 19:39, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Wraith Squadron, page 374; "Sir, maneuvers?" That was from the man who'd replaced the slain chief pilot.  Trigit gave him a frosty little smile. "Do you see a need for it? When our shields are equally down on all facings and every other craft on the battlefield is faster and more maneuverable than we are?"--Herbsewell 20:50, 24 September 2006 (UTC)


 * All of Stackpole's books use game mechanics for the battles. That's something he's said publically, as well. It's not a good basis. The loss of "shields everywhere" will have to be figured out some other way. The domes are and have always been sensors, ever since the first film. It's not our fault later second-hand sources decided to make them shield generators vulnerable to starfighters. In fact, even the ROTJ novelization states: "Concentrate your fire on their power generators. If we can knock out their shields, our fighters might stand a chance against them."

- p.170
 * The fighters in ROTJ did not knock out a shield generator, the capital ships did so the fighters could target other sensitive instruments, like the sensor dome which they blew up. Like Richard Edlund from ILM said above, they were for sensor purposes. Be thankful the ITW books just retconned them into secondary shield components instead of nothing. Lower scale books like Stackpole's will simply have to come second on this issue. VT-16 22:02, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
 * 1. Cite the book where you got that quote. 2. That is confined to only "Stackpole's books". 3. The X-wing series-I can not believe I have to repeat myself-had TWO authors. They were Michael A. Stackpole AND Aaron Allston--Herbsewell 23:26, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Novelizations of the movies have often been incorect and many instances have been in direct contradiction with films themselves.


 * Your point? Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 00:07, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Well if I have to spell it out for you... The point that VT-16 made is irrelevant because Wraith Squadron was authored by Aaron Allston, not Michael A. Stackpole.--Herbsewell 00:40, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't know what the problem is, Star Wars: Complete Locations pretty clearly establishes that the answer is "both." The domes are sensor domes, with the local-area shield emitters mounted on antennae around the globe. If the problem is that some book claimed that an SD's entire shield grid went down, we can assume disruption of the local fields meant shots were able to get through to other areas and take down their shield emitters or power leads, too. jSarek 00:47, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
 * And why does it matter on who wrote the book? Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 00:42, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeah, that's possible... Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 00:49, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
 * No...it specifically said shield generator domes--Herbsewell 00:57, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, they're not. Complete Locations says they were sensor domes with local-area shield emitters on them. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 00:59, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
 * So that's what the discussion comes down to. What's more canon, a  reference book or a novel?--Herbsewell 01:02, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
 * A reference book. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 01:03, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
 * What are you God? I can accept that but not from you--Herbsewell 01:06, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I just want to know if there is an official source for that


 * But we have reference books contradicting each other on this. So what's more canon the Essential Guides or Complete Locations?--Darth OblivionComlink[[Image:Oldsith.png|30px]] 01:09, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
 * So now what?--Herbsewell 01:17, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Does that end the discussion? We now have two sources, both supposedly canon, supporting two diffrent facts?


 * Ask Leland Chee?--Darth OblivionComlink[[Image:Oldsith.png|30px]] 01:35, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Just because he's a Lucasfilm official, does that make his word canon?--Herbsewell 01:38, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
 * How would you go about doing that?--Herbsewell 01:39, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
 * No; just because he is in charge of the Holocron continuity database, the official internal database containing canon information in Star Wars, makes his words canon, because they're paraphrases of the Holocron. As for the how, there are message boards he frequents at The Official Site.  But he's highly unlikely to get involved in this argument, because he avoids throwing fuel on the fire of fan debates like this.  As for the above posted "it specifically said shield generator domes," might I point out that G-canon sources throught the films claim that the ships are going at lightspeed, yet we're willing to accept that that's a figure of speech rather than the literal truth.  If you were a fighter pilot in the midst of an attack, would you quibble about whether the domes themselves were the shield generators?  Even if you were an omniscient narrator, would you bother bogging down your prose with that detail? jSarek 01:50, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Why couldn't they go at lightspeed? Thrawn's flagship was able to go 150 light years an hour. Also to correct you, the chief pilot of the very ship who lost it's "shield generators" said that quote.  If I were a "fighter pilot in the midst of an attack" I would quibble about how the very ship I was up against lost it's shields.--Herbsewell 02:24, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I just thought of something. If the Rebels were able to destroy them, wouldn't that mean the shields were already down? If the shields were already down, and these were only generators, why would the Rebels waste there time destroying them?--Darth OblivionComlink[[Image:Oldsith.png|30px]] 02:14, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Well Admiral Trigit had not activated the shields when they attacked. Possibly attcking them before they were activated would ensure that the ship would be defenceless.--Herbsewell 02:28, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
 * That's a good enough reason as far as I'm concerned


 * This issue still isn't resolved--Herbsewell 03:33, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I see you are unfamiliar with not only LFL canon policy but also the futility of strawmanning someone's argument. The closer to the actual films the sources are, the higher on the scale they are, even with faults that are later corrected (i.e Obi-Wan and Ben being brothers). Allston or Stackpole could both write 1000 books each using game stats as their basis for X-wing combat, and they still would be lower on LFL's canon list than the novelizations of the films. That's simply how it works in LFL.
 * Second of all, quit strawmanning the argument, whether Allston or Stackpole or Anderson is the one writing books using game mechanics for their depiction of naval combat is irrelevant, what is relevant is that they use it and therefore it's not as valid as the combat depicted in a higher source, i.e a movie novelization. VT-16 05:24, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

"When it comes to absolute canon, the real story of Star Wars, you must turn to the films themselves and only the films. Even novelizations are interpretations of the film, and while they are largely true to George Lucas' vision (he works quite closely with the novel authors), the method in which they are written does allow for some minor differences. The novelizations are written concurrently with the film's production, so variations in detail do creep in from time to time. Nonetheless, they should be regarded as very accurate depictions of the fictional Star Wars movies. The further one branches away from the movies, the more interpretation and speculation come into play."
 * And for your other big question, the Dorling Kindersley books were also made with good help from the film crew and in connection with the actual making of the new films. That's stated in interviews done with Hans Jenssen and Richard Chasemore. The series of Inside the Worlds, Ultimate Dictionary and Incredible cross-Sections guides is higher up on the canon scale than X-wing novels. VT-16 05:41, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
 * But you appear to have missed the fact that it is not only the novels identifying them as shield generators, but also other reference books, including the Essentia Guides. Also, it has always been stated that they were shield generators until fairly recently. So, if they are definitely sensor globes now, it is a retcon.--Darth OblivionComlink[[Image:Oldsith.png|30px]] 06:19, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Essential Guides cover issues not just in the films, but in EU sources as well. The DK line covers only the worlds and events in the films. Steve Sansweet said it best:

- SW.com, "Ask The Jedi Council".

Then there's the LucasFilm continuity editors: "Gospel, or canon as we refer to it, includes the screenplays, the films, the radio dramas and the novelisations. These works spin out of George Lucas' original stories, the rest are written by other writers. However, between us, we've read everything, and much of it is taken into account in the overall continuity. The entire catalog of published works comprises a vast history -- with many off-shoots, variations and tangents -- like any other well-developed mythology."

- SW Insider 1.

But why stop there: "The first two Incredible Cross Sections books were conceived to explore bold new territory in the Star Wars Universe, taking a rare look inside more vehicles and vessels than we have ever seen before, and doing it in unprecidented detail. These books would represent the most thorough research ever done on these vehicles and would receive Lucasfilm's formal imprimatur as canon. These volumes would henceforth be sent out to licencees as reference guides and would even become useful manuals at Industrial Light & Magic, where some of the artwork influenced details in Episodes I and II"

- "VISION QUEST- The origins of the Star Wars Incredible Cross-Sections", pg. 36, Insider 68.

I can almost do this all day: "Long after the original Incredible Cross-Sections book revolutionized Star Wars "nonfiction", Dorling Kindersley continues to publish amazing resources revealing the secrets of vehicles, equipment, and locations. The latest offering is Inside The Worlds of Star Wars Attack Of The Clones: The Complete Guide to the Incredible Locations from Episode II. Illustrated by the veteran team of Richard Chasemore and Hans Jenssen, this was written by series editor Simon Beecroft, in consultation with Dr. Curtis Saxton. While this book deals with locations rather than vehicles, the challenge remains the same, in Beecroft's words: "to accurately rationalize what's seen in the film and then extend the universe that little further." Many locations in the Star Wars galaxy are nothing if not big. Fortunately, the artists were prepared for the challenge. "One thing they've learned: never to underestimate the scale of the task," says Beecroft. "Richard and Hans put in hundreds and hundreds of hours doing a vehicles book. For a locations book, they must double that, at least. Some of these artworks are just enormous: look at the Geonosian Droid Factory or the Outlander Club." Beecroft is emphatic about the crucial role of Dr. Saxton's participation. "He worked with me all the way, holding down a day job and then exchanging e-mails with me all night. His academic background, general breadth of knowledge, and understanding of Star Wars lore underpins everything in the book. His work in rationalizing the Geonosis battle map, in particular, must be mentioned. With Dr. Saxton working with us, we can be sure that there is a real scientific basis to all our explanations." Curtis Saxton, who wrote the Attack of ther Clones Incredible Cross-Sections book, has a PhD. in theoretical astrophysics along with a deep knowledge of, and a love for, the Star Wars saga."

- "THE DK STAR WARS LIBRARY" sidebar, pg. 43, Insider 68.

All this, in addition to the ILM employees who worked on the actual Old Trilogy films, should be more than enough to show that features like the globes are primarily sensors, and that the "shield" thingy is the only retcon here. VT-16 07:56, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm with VT-16 on this. The notion given above that "the novelizations often contradict the movies themselves, therefore we should listen to this X-Wing book" is, needless to say, absurd. It's been made clear over and over that the novelizations are a higher source than the EU. Heck, we know from Matt Stover that Lucas line-edited the RotS novelization personally. Not only is there no contradiction here between Ackbar's order where he makes it clear that the fighters would only stand a chance against Imperial capital ships if they could knock out their power generators to knock down their shields, but the Complete Locations (or Original Trilogy Inside the Worlds, if you have it) makes it clear what those globes are. Funny how Ackbar didn't say "go for their bridge shield generators, that for some reason are completely exposed!" That's an EU fallacy that sprang from erroneous interpretation of the movies (and ignoring the canon novelization), and thankfully it's been rectified.Vymer 09:12, 25 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I'd go so far as to say the ITW:OT was more of a partial reversion of a retcon, than a retcon itself. VT-16 10:13, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Nonetheless, they are sensor globes. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 11:14, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Exactly. Sensor globes that have "local-area shield projector vanes" sticking out of them. It even shows a cross-section cut of the globe itself, which contained "hyperwave transceiver coils" and "long-range scanners" that "feed targetting information to the ship's weapons systems". When the starfighters hit one of the towers, it impacted on the Executor's ability to target enemy vessels that were far-off. VT-16 14:03, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
 * All these quotes don't say why Essential Guides would be incorrect or non-canon.--Herbsewell 16:12, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Technically the notion that the domes are shield generators does not go against the movies themselves. Only C-canon sources state otherwise, such as interviews, novelizations, reference books, etc.


 * Even information in official sources can be retconned into being incorrect. I actually typed a list of retconned information in the books I own so if I'm reading one I don't forget what information is no longer true.--Darth OblivionComlink[[Image:Oldsith.png|30px]] 16:29, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Are you dense? The Essential Guides are further removed from the films than the DK line of books. That makes them less valid than the ICS. The Dorling Kindersley series contains the most thorough look at the ships, vehicles and locations of the films, as outlined extensively above. And from Echo Station's interview with Mike Stackpole, he mentions the influence of the X-wing computer game which makes the events in those books even more dubious. Consession accepted. VT-16 17:26, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
 * They're sensor globes with local-area shield emitters. Debate over.--Darth OblivionComlink[[Image:Oldsith.png|30px]] 17:54, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Exactly. This was solved in the second post on this topic, and now it's been pointlessly dragged out. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 19:02, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I find this similar to the armament difficulty, in which the Star Wars Databank says a figure in contradiction with the design given by Essential Cross Sections. I don't want to get into that issue here, but It seems that two supposedly canon sources may say contradictory statements but the issue is still unresolved.  Please differentiate between this problem which in your mind is one-sided, and the armament which is unsettled--Herbsewell 19:26, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Herbsewell, we've explained why they are sensor domes. Why can't you just accept that? Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 19:47, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Futhermore, we've also explained that the sensor domes included small local-are shield projectors, and yet you are still unhappy. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 19:48, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
 * The Databank still doesn't say Rune Haako appeared in AotC, even after Leland Chee stated that he was Gunray's aid. I, myself, still find that hard to believe.--Darth OblivionComlink[[Image:Oldsith.png|30px]] 19:52, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
 * As do I. But personal opinions do not override canon. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 19:56, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Anyway, I think even the Databank may have a few mistakes. Or it might be in need of some updating.--Darth OblivionComlink[[Image:Oldsith.png|30px]] 20:51, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I think it's both. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 22:08, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Answer the question given to you. "Differentiate between this problem which in your mind is one-sided, and the armament which is unsettled"--Herbsewell 00:16, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Since when are you ordering people to answer your questions? Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 00:17, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
 * And, for the record, nothing you say will change the canon fact that they're sensor globes with local-area shield emitters. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 00:18, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
 * It would help us if you would state your side in this issue in comparison whith your stance on the armaments of a Imperial I-class Star Destroyer.--Herbsewell 00:21, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
 * So you basically want me to repeat what I've already said? Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 00:24, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
 * JN where does it say that they are sensor globes? Ugluk: Destroyer of Redlinks 00:39, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
 * That has been stated above. As for the article on the ISD-72x shield generator dome, I know full well all about it because I originally wrote it using the New Essential Guide to Weapons of Technology. That does not mean there are any discrepancies in the guide itself. For your reference, it is stated they are sensor globes in this post by VT-16:

''They are called sensor domes in the ITW:OT and SW:CL books from Dorling Kindersley and further back by Richard Edlund, one of the SFX artists on ROTJ: "A very large explosion is coming out of the bridge area and it's causing several others to go as well; and one of the big radar domes up on top has been blown away, and that's spewing flames. It's pretty spectacular." — CINEFEX #13, p.55, 3 February 1983 There's your answer. They built the domes to resemble the real life radar domes on warships. The ITW books also added a slight retcon for the shield-thing, having parts on the dome be responsible for localised shield-generation, a sort of auxillary shield.''

I think it's time we woke up and smelled the Whyren's Reserve. A) Some sources refer to the domes as sensor. B) Some sources refer to the domes as generators C) Retcons have been made to clarify the issue so that the sensor globes have local area shield generators (i.e. around the command tower). D) The sources that define the domes as sensor globes are higher level canon. That's it. End of story. For a long time I thought they were shield generators also, but that originally came out of game mechanics which almost always contradict canon. Atarumaster88  ( Audience Chamber ) 02:13, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Since the research done by Dorling Kindersley for their books was the most thoroughly done on these ships, as stated by LFL above, that settles it. No other book sources would come close on the canon scale. The globes are and have always been sensor domes, as according to their creators at ILM. The only retcons ever done has had to do with the globes being associated with shielding. In the second retcon, only the vanes sticking out on top of them were used for shielding, auxillary shielding. VT-16 08:26, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
 * EDIT: I made a mistake, the vanes are for shield projection, not generation. That would take place in or near the command tower generators, like the ones pictured inside the Executor's tower in ITW:OT and SW:CL. VT-16 08:45, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Here's how it happened at Endor: The Rebel fleet takes out Executor 's shields ("Concetrate all your fire on that Super Star Destroyer."&mdash;Admiral Ackbar). Then, fighter craft are sent in to continue the attack. But, it's likely that the local-area shield projectors are still protecting the bridge. So, the fighter craft decide to attack the sensor globes, where local-area shield projectors are. Once one is knocked out, a lone A-wing loses control and crashes into Executor 's unshielded bridge, causing the Star Dreadnought to crash into the second Death Star. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 11:06, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
 * "Like I said above, we can't just pick one." Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax--Herbsewell 11:40, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes we can, that's what I've been trying to show throughout this entire thread.
 * So, the fighter craft decide to attack the sensor globes, where local-area shield projectors are.
 * That, and because they aid the gun batteries in aiming. VT-16 13:56, 26 September 2006 (UTC)


 * What's the difference between the armament and the shield generator issue? Try answering the question this time--Herbsewell 16:08, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Are you talking to me or to Nebulax or someone else? The armament and shield question is basically the same, but the threads where started by different people on different dates. As for answers, I've given nothing but answers throughout both threads for days now. That is enough. VT-16 16:40, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Why is the "dome" issue settled but not the armament--Herbsewell 19:29, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Actually, I think they are pretty much settled. I apologize if it seems like I'm arguing- I just want to get the truth, so no personal attacks were intended- I assume good faith with everyone. This is sort of a confusing issue, and I'm just trying to understand based on all the sources I've encountered. Atarumaster88  [[Image:Jedi_Order.jpg|20px]] ( Audience Chamber ) 19:28, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
 * In what way is the armament issue settled?--Herbsewell 19:50, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
 * The fact that there's currently a compromise. And we cannot choose something if there are conflicting sources regarding it, Herbsewell. Now, this issue has been solved; any further edits would be pointless. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 20:34, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Armament AGAIN...
I propose a solution: 6 heavy turbolasers, 2 heavy ion batteries, 60 XX-9 turbolaser batteries, and 60 Norstel NK-9 ion cannons. Makes everyone happy. I wrote that down when Nebulax reverted them.

Oh, and dear admiral, it hasn't been under dispute for a long time.

Cheers,  Relentless Recusant  01:50, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
 * That's because of the fact that the XX-9 turbolaser figure wasn't in the article. And no, I must oppose this. The models from the films are of a higher canon level. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 01:52, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I also have to oppose this. And RelentlessRecusant, I've been watching this page for several months. It has been under debate for some time. Basically, if I understand Nebulax correctly, the movie models from the films show X amount of turbolasers and Y amount of ion cannons. Now, there is a total of 60 T/60 IC, but the types of those guns is not known- other than they are not the main battery. Correct me if I'm wrong- I think they also featured point-defense guns. Atarumaster88  [[Image:Jedi_Order.jpg|20px]] ( Audience Chamber ) 04:52, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Wasn't the XX-9 supposed to be those big dual turbolasers on the sides? Sigh. They look nothing like the ones on the Death Star, which were also of that model, I think. Having the multitude of WEG guns as smaller turbolasers would be a good solution and consistent with the details shown on the ICS cross-section. VT-16 12:42, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
 * It's best to keep it as is and not add specific tubolaser/ion cannon models. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 12:48, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Just read the sourcebooks. My thinking is the following:
 * Essential Cross Sections clearly states two heavy ion batteries and six heavy turbolaser batteries
 * Several sourcebooks and many EU books say 60 Taim&Bak XX-9 turbolaser batteries and 60 Borstel NK-9
 * I am trying to make everyone happy...
 * Cheers,  Relentless Recusant [[Image:Jedi_Order.jpg|20px]] 12:58, 24 September 2006 (UTC)


 * However, other sources contradict those you just provided, which is why we have that compromise on the article itself. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 14:42, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
 * It would almost be easier just to say, "No one in LFL can decide what the official armament of the ISD-I is because there's several different versions, so the heck if we know." (kidding) In all seriousness, I believe VT-16 tried asking Leland Chee a couple of times and didn't get an answer. We could just say "the ISD has lots of turbolasers and ion cannons and can slag a planet from orbit" or something like that. ICS/movie models say one thing, WEG books say another, 2 of the New Essential Guides and several other works say 60/60. Who knows? Atarumaster88  [[Image:Jedi_Order.jpg|20px]] ( Audience Chamber ) 15:01, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Exactly. There's too many conflicts sources, and we can't just pick the one we want. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 15:02, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, cite your source. THe ISD-I is arguably the most important starship in Star Wars...of all time. I refuse just to give it up, because this is important. Cheers,  Relentless Recusant [[Image:Jedi_Order.jpg|20px]] 15:31, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Atarumaster already did. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 15:33, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Why not go with what the Essential guide to ships and vessels says? Ugluk: Destroyer of Redlinks 15:37, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Like I said above, we can't just pick one. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 15:44, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Here's what the SW:ICS cutout looks like, showing what the different arrows highlight. The armament composition is the same as with the earlier Acclamator and Venator classes, a few big guns and tractor beams that take up a lot of space and require a lot of logistics support onboard the vessel, then some medium guns and then a lot of small guns. The small guns lining each side-trench. If there's enough of them on the top and bottom trenches of each side on the ISD, that might cover for most of the third-party sources. VT-16 16:25, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Personally, I understand the armament to be a composite of what ICS, the movie models, and everything else says. I.e. (x) amount of heavy guns from ICS/movie models, but the total amount of weapons is 60/60. And I think either the Millennium Falcon or the X-wing are tough contenders for most important starship. There are so many different models of armament that I'm inclined to just list all the different armament discrepanies in a separate section. Atarumaster88  [[Image:Jedi_Order.jpg|20px]] ( Audience Chamber ) 03:21, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Meshing the movie model + ICS count and the 60/60 thing just doesn't work. This is because there's no way you could have those heavy dorsal turrets anywhere else on the ship. They'd be visible. It just doesn't work. Same with the huge ion cannons, as well as the quad TLs in the brim trench notches. The way the armament is listed now is best IMO.Vymer 11:41, 25 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I point to the LFL blurb about the ICS books above, which said: "These books would represent the most thorough research ever done on these vehicles and would receive Lucasfilm's formal imprimatur as canon." That's it. We follow what the most thorough official research done on the vessels say. If there's 60/60 of anything, it would have to be small guns, not the large ones on the dorsal side. VT-16 13:51, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
 * As a further point, I note the discussion above that contends somehow that the eight heavy turrets, two quad brim trench guns, the axial defense guns, and the numerous, invisibly small turbolasers distributed along the hull (the brim trench, the surfaces, etc) are somehow too little and reject same out of hand. A Venator's primary firepower are clearly it's eight turrets. It also has two big guns in the brim notches, just like an Imperial Star Destroyer, and numerous smaller guns which we saw in the trench itself in the movie, as well as two-barreled laser turrets in the trench as well. I don't see how anyone can form the view that this the ISD is somehow an underarmed ship. Taking the Venator as as basis, ISDs of both types have the same, but larger (and in the ISD2s case, much more powerful, with numerous barrels) heavy turrets, an uncounted but high number of trench and surface guns. What's wrong with that? It's certainly better than the nonsensical 60 identical weapons claim- especially given these alleged XX-9s are nowehre to be seen anywhere in the films.Vymer 15:37, 25 September 2006 (UTC)


 * As an end-point, I have never seen a WEG-inspired cross-section of an ISD showing these so-called 60/60 heavy guns. A proper cross-section vs. none at all is not even a contest. VT-16 17:45, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I never meant that there 60 identical weapons, just 60 turbolasers of various types/yields/what have you. And Vymer, you should look beyond the Venator to other ships that actually compare in function/firepower to an ISD, which is slightly hard as it is both a carrier and a destroyer. Case in point- an MC80b Star Cruiser, Hapan Battle Dragon or even the Republic-class Star Destroyer. The Venator was a carrier version of the Vic- it wasn't supposed to be as heavily armed. If the ISD only has the main battery, as someone else contended above, it would be underarmed due to limited firing arcs. To VT-16, I would say that we have never based our levels of canonicity on details, to my knowledge. If something is G-level canon, it's higher than other things. Generally, we go with the newer sources. Barring the Ep. III ICS (if it exists- I haven't seen it), two of the New Essential Guides say 60/60 of XX-9s and NK-7s. So yes, the main battery in ICS is the main battery, but as far as we know, the official total number of guns altogether is 60/60. (that would include smaller guns). Until another source is given, I have no reason not to follow that configuration. Atarumaster88  [[Image:Jedi_Order.jpg|20px]] ( Audience Chamber ) 22:49, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeah, but the big question is what types of turbolasers and ion cannons? Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 00:08, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
 * So far, the highest level of canon sources I have seen show that the other types are subsidiaries. Depending on the size of the XX-9, it is entirely possible that the other turbolasers are XX-9s. The main source on the XX-9 is the NEGTWT, which I have and it does not define the size-although it does say that it has "three times the power of a standard laser cannon." To me, that is not a very large weapon, although certainly capable of planetary bombardment. I would say that the others are XX-9s unless we have a higher level canon source which contradicts it. Ditto with NK-7s on ion cannons. I wrote the articles on one if not both of those, so I know a bit about them. Atarumaster88  [[Image:Jedi_Order.jpg|20px]] ( Audience Chamber ) 02:18, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
 * The Venator does compare in function and firepower to an ISD, as far as it's armament is concerned. Aside from incorporating a larger fighter complemment and some proton torpedo tubes, the Venator has an almost identical armament scheme- eight dorsal heavies, brim notch mediums, numerous smaller guns. It's also a Star Destroyer. As for saying it's a carrier version of the Vic, that's simply not correct. The Venator is a KDY ship, the Victory is Rendili Star Drive. And the Venator is more heavily armed than a Vic- a Vic has no HTLs like that of the Venator. As for the MC80b, Hapan Battle Dragon, and Republic Star Destroyer, I've seen little evidence that the MC80b etc has have weapons the size of the massive dorsal cannons of an ISD. Whatever their so-called heavy turbolasers are, they're clearly not in the same league (heck, the Hapan Battle Dragon is a sucky little 600m ship with crap turbolasers anyway), or we'd be able to see them. As for the Essential Guides 60/60 being the total thing, they're wrong. It's just that simple unfortunately- there are no less than five different types of guns we an actually see for our own eyes on an ISD- the small gun that tracks the escape pod in ANH, the brim-trench quad guns, the six huge HTLs, the 2 huge ions, and the three axial defense batteries. Not a single one looks anything like an XX-9. That's why the armament as currently listed is best, IMO.Vymer 06:35, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

"You should look beyond the Venator to other ships that actually compare in function/firepower to an ISD, which is slightly hard as it is both a carrier and a destroyer....The Venator was a carrier version of the Vic- it wasn't supposed to be as heavily armed."
 * I'm repeating my lines above, since nothing more needs to be said, imho: Since the research done by Dorling Kindersley for their books was the most thoroughly done on these ships, as stated by LFL above, that settles it. No other book sources would come close on the canon scale. There are no 60 heavy turbolasers nor are there any 60 heavy ion cannons. If anything, the 120 guns might be small turbolasers and ion cannons referenced as protrusions in the side trenches. End of story. VT-16 08:26, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

- Atarumaster88


 * Actually, the Venator and the Victory are on the same level, it takes between 4 and 6 Recusant destroyers to take down one Venator or one Victory Star Destroyer (ROTS:ICS). The ISD-I wouldn't be underarmed if it had less amounts of heavy weapons, because that would mean each of those had more of the total amount of power devoted to weaponry, than if there were lots of guns. As stated in the ROTS:ICS, true warships like the Venator, could redirect almost their entire power-output into their guns. Since the ISDs require more power than smaller Star Destroyers, that gives them more firepower and with a few heavy guns, each direct much more power than on the earlier models. I agree on the poor fire-arc, though.

"Generally, we go with the newer sources."

- Atarumaster88


 * Usually, that's the case. But as I've quoted and noted several times on this page already, the Dorling Kindersley line has an advantage over most other book sources, barring the film novelizations. That's what makes them so special, and gives them more authority on issues like this. The ISDs weapons-complement follows the evolutionary path of the earlier Acclamator and Venator. VT-16 09:02, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't think the whole "poor fire arc" is really that big a deal in Star Wars space combat. Combat is generally done from broadside, and it is space, not the ocean, so there's no need for extensive maneuvering. Look at Battle of Coruscant- there was no shortage of targets for the Venator's main turrets there.Vymer 09:35, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

P.S VT-16, if you are not male, I apologize. Atarumaster88  ( Audience Chamber ) 19:15, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
 * By this point, I'm in total agreement with VT-16. He's proved his point quite well. Saying that there might be 60 XX-9s as the auxillary armament was a mistake, although I still think the total number of guns (of varying types) is 60/60. As for Vymer, you should read the article on the Venator Star Destroyer and look at its armament and role. Several times in the article, its primary role as a carrier is mentioned. Also, I'm confused on how the primary armament is supposed to be similar to an ISDs when it features only 2 medium turbolasers and no other light guns aside from point defense laser cannons- which would not be very effective against larger ships. The Acclamator is a glorified transport ill-suited for space combat- read the article if you don't believe me. And the Vic is much more heavily armed than a Vic, with 10 quad turbolasers, 40 double turbolasers, 20 missile tubes. Don't go off on reactor output- if a Venator can do it, a Vic can do it. Oh, and I find it perplexing that you can claim that you've "seen little evidence that the MC 80b etc have weapons the size of the massive dorsal cannons" when the primary source you use for documenting the ISD's battery- movie models- do not exist for those three ships. What an amazing generalization. As for poor fire arc, that is quite off. "Combat was generally done from broadside?????" The Battle of Coruscant was a confused brawl to say the least. Especially with smaller ships, combat was not always broadside. As a matter of fact, unless your name is Thrawn, combat is highly unpredictable. Have you ever heard that "no plan survives contact with the enemy." On the ocean, naval ships (not submarines) are restricted to two planes- the x and y- or basically the surface of the ocean, and their weapons fire in basically parabolic arcs in all three planes- x, y, and z- but only in the "positive z" or above the water surface, aside from torpedoes/depth charges. Aircraft, spacecraft, etc. move in all three planes, at generally higher speed, and launch weapons in all three planes in both positive and negative planes in all three planes. My point is that they have more area around them to cover than a naval ship. (There are no 16 inch guns below the waterline of a Terran 1940s era battleship.)  Atarumaster88  [[Image:Jedi_Order.jpg|20px]] ( Audience Chamber ) 14:25, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
 * This isn't a refutation of the idea that the Venator is primarily a carrier vessel, but here's some interesting scans I've picked up from friends and associates over the net and cobbled together, showing the overall structure of the Venator and the Imperator. Notice how much more of the overall volume of the Venator is devoted to the hangars compared to the Imperator, and how it adds up to a bigger fighter complement for the Venator, even if the later design is much bigger. Now, unlike the Venator, the Imperator has its own landing barges for the ground vehicles it carries, so that adds to the fighters and shuttles, but still not enough to compete with the Venator. The Imperator also carries more ground troops aboard, thus requiring more crew quarters. However, look at the weapons-complement for the two classes, the biggest guns are placed in the same spots, on each side of the command tower, large secondary guns are also in each side-trench, and the Venator makes up for its lack of axial defense guns (due to the space occupied by the hangar doors) by having larger point-defense guns line the side-trenches in pairs (only broken up by the side-hangars). The text beside the heavy turbolaser also mentions its use as a capable warship in different situations, even though its more geared for carrier-duty. VT-16 16:17, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
 * More good stuff from VT-16. I agree with him again. The Venator is primarily a carrier vessel, but I can defintely see how it can be used as a warship also. I do notice the Venator, aside from its main battery, lacks in the medium/light turbolasers/ion cannons used on the ISD, so it would be weaker than the Vic, which has less fighter capacity and more guns. Aside from that, I agree with what VT-16 is saying- he's proved his points well. Vymer on the other hand . . . Atarumaster88  [[Image:Jedi_Order.jpg|20px]] ( Audience Chamber ) 19:15, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Oh no, I am male, so you're correct. ;)
 * My only contention is that the Victory isn't more powerful than the Venator, they're essentially equals. The same power can be channeled through their weapons-systems. The only difference is the Victory is better geared for all-out combat than the Venator and doesn't have its glaring vulnerability (the huge hangar-area that is especially vulnerable when opened). Other than that, I think the case on the ISDs weapons-complement is basically closed. 8) VT-16 21:01, 26 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Agreed. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 21:09, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Agree I do as well. Only Vymer seemed to not agree. Your user page said "S" so I had no idea. Atarumaster88  [[Image:Jedi_Order.jpg|20px]] ( Audience Chamber ) 22:18, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Actually, he's not disagreeing about the ship's true armament, only about having the 60/60 number, which I also think is ridiculous. The current statistics is sufficient, imho. And the choice of ships to compare with the ISD wasn't very good, at least two of those were noted as weaker than the ISD. The third, the Republic-class, seems to have given up carrying capability for sheer armament and engine power, so it's understandable. VT-16 22:49, 26 September 2006 (UTC)