Talk:Form II/Legends

I removed reference to Cin Drallig as a Form II master, as the only reference to Cin Drallig's styles I can find in the novelization and game of Episode III state only he was a fencing instructor. Fencing doesnt automaticly mean Makashi, and especially doesnt mean Makashi mastery. If someone can give me a source I will glady replace it. - Geekmasterflash

I put it in because I heard that he was a master of Makashi. I think I happen to have heard it here. Until there is no confirmation on this, I don't revert it.- TopAce 14:50, 30 Nov 2005 (UTC)

Shaak Ti?
The article says that Shaak Ti used Form II? Are there any sources that can confirm that? Sith Lord 18:14, 5 Dec 2005 (UTC)
 * The Shaak Ti page doesn't say anything about her using Form II, and I haven't heard of any sources that say she used that Form. Maybe someone else knows of a source that says she used Form II. If there isn't any proof, then someone should remove the speculation that she used Makashi. 151.203.150.67 19:35, 5 Dec 2005 (UTC)
 * I already said it somewhere (probably here) that I find it very strange that a Makashi user would survive the Geonosis Arena Battle. Sometimes I don't know what to believe about which Jedi uses which form. What is stated and what could be the reality are two different things. Putting Shaak Ti to be a Makashi master is a poor choice. Surviving attacks from constant waves of Battle Droids is not something a Makashi user could do. Unless she was also the master of another form (Form I or III), I hesitate to believe that Shaak Ti used Makashi. If she did, she had to heavily rely on other Jedi defending her, which is quite improbably considering the chaos that was within the arena. - TopAce 19:54, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Shaaak Ti strikes me more as a Form IV or Form I user.

Some Evidence in the Book

 * There are a few websites that do mention or speculate that Shaak Ti is a Makashi user, how they determined that I'm not sure. The really only evidence I can find is in the novelization of Star Wars Episode III when Obi-Wan's Soresu style is compared to the other Jedi's.  According to the book soresu lacked the boldness of Anakin's style, the ferociousness of Windu's or Depa Billaba's, nor does it have the stylish grace of a Shaak Ti or Dooku, or does it resemble the whirlwind of "destruction" of a Yoda, but it power lies in its simplicity.  Though it doesn't mention Shaak Ti particular style, she is grouped together with Dooku who is a known Makashi user.  The other forms mention are obviously Anakins Djem So, Windu's Vaapad, and Yoda's Ataru.
 * Then a mention has earned it place in the Behind the scenes section. --Master Starkeiller 20:14, 5 Dec 2005 (UTC)

"There is an understated elegance in Obi Wan Kenobi's lightsaber technique, one that is quite unlike the feel one might get from the other great swordsbeings of the Jedi Order. He lacks entirely the flash, the pure bold elan, of an Anakin Skywalker; there is nowhere in him the penumbral ferocity of a Mace Windu or a Depa Billaba nor the stylish grace of a Shaak Ti or a Dooku, and he is nothing resembling the whirlwind of destruction that Yoda can become." Stover, Matthew. Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith. New York: Del Rey Books, pg 317.

Deconstructing this passage, which is the only reference to Shaak Ti and her prefered lightsaber form, will determine exactly what Master Shaak Ti's Form was. The passage tells us that Obi Wan Kenobi is one of the greatest swordbeings in the Jedi Order and follows with a list of other great lightsaber users. Each is a Master of a particular style of combat. Obi Wan Kenobi uses a basic style that has none of the of the flourish of the others. Anakin Skywalker's form has flash and showmanship. Mace Windu and Depa Billaba are fierce and terrible opponents. Yoda is a force of nature completely unstoppable by anyone. The passage also mentions Shaak Ti and Count Dooku and describes their grace.

Mace Windu and Depa Billaba are grouped together because according to Stovers other novel Shatterpoint, they share the same style (Form VII). Because of that similiarity they are grouped together here with the descriptive phrase "penumbral ferocity." The other grouping of Jedi are Shaak Ti and Count Dooku. They share the phrase "stylish grace." The previous grouping of Windu and Billaba occured because they shared Form VII. The other jedi mentioned singularly are the Masters of their particular Form: Obi Wan Kenobi's Form III, Anakin Skywalker's Form V, and Yoda's Form IV. Therefore, the grouping of Shaak Ti and Dooku must have occured because they share the same form.

Dooku, from the novelization and technical information about the movies, is a Form II Master. This form is a rare talent in the Jedi Order during the time period of Episodes 1-3, and Dooku is one of the few who has mastered it. Because Shaak Ti is paired with Dooku, she too must be either a master of Form II or at least highly adept at that Form. Otherwise, the structure of the passage does not function. Instead the structure of the passage leads to one conclusion--Shaak Ti uses Form II.

If Shaak Ti is a master of Form II, which is centers on dueling with a lightsaber, how does she survive the Battle of Geonosis? Perhaps Form II Mastery has nothing to do with that situation. Instead, lets look at what all the other Jedi who survived the slaughter in the Geonosis Arena have in common. Kenobi, Windu, Skywalker, Kit Fisto, Ki Adi Mundi, Ploo Koon, Stass Allie, Luminara Unduali, Bariss Offree, Bultar Swan, and Aayla Secura are all exemplary Jedi. Windu, Stass Allie, Plo Koon and Ki Adi Mundi were both on the Jedi Council. Kenobi, Skywalker, and Kit Fisto were appointed to the Council. Butlar Swan, Aayla Secura, Bariss Ofree, and Luminari Unduali were exemplary Jedi. Each of these Jedi used a different Form. Their only commonality is that they were the great Jedi of this time period. Shaak Ti is amongst outstanding company, and Stover leads into his description of the Jedi with notion that these are the "great swordbeings" of the Jedi Order.

Form II Mastery does not infer a diminished skill at defense against blaster fire. Dooku spent most of his life, except the time period he served as apprentice to Darth Sidious, as a Jedi Knight. He would have, like other Jedi, been sent on missions to ensure "peace and justice throughout the galaxy." He would have encountered situations where he would have fought against beings or droids who used blaster weaponry against him. He obviously survived those battles. Instead, Form II implies an increased skill in the area of dueling against an opponent with a Lightsaber. Because of this specialization in one area, the possibility exisits that some degradation occurs in defense against blaster fire. However, I don't think it's wise to infer that a slight diminishment in skill will become overwhelming. If such a weakness did occur would it have been possible for Count Dooku to survive his Jedi career?

Stover's novelization, which is considered a part of the Star Wars primary canon, gives the only reasonable description of Shaak Ti's style. Shaak Ti's skill with a lightsaber has a "stylish grace." The same "stylish grace" that Count Dooku has. We are left with overwhelming evidence that Shaak Ti uses the same style as Count Dooku. Therefore, Shaak Ti uses Form II. 1. You imply that simply because two masters of the same form are associated with the same adjectives, that it inherently means that another instance of relating the same adjectives to two practitioners must mean they practice the same form. This is an obvious fallacy in logic in just the same way that because an article reads, "Both Michael Jordan and Tiger Woods were skilled and elegant players." does not mean, "Therefore, they are skilled at the same sport." Someone who does not know who Michael Jordan and Tiger Woods are might interpret it in the same way, but that does not make it fact, even if the article were titled, "The Best Sports Players of This Generation."
 * (claps hands) Brilliant deduction, Mr. Unsigned Comment. However, there are a number of flaws in your logic.

2. There are seven established "forms" of lightsaber combat. As you mentioned previously, 5 of the 7 forms are described here. 7 practitioners are mentioned. Is it so unreasonable to consider that Shaak Ti is meant to represent either Form I or Form VI? This proves that too many "conclusions" and "interpretations" of one person's writing can be made, and no definative answer can be derived.

3. Let's say that you are interpreting the writer's work correctly. Maybe the author wanted Shaak Ti to be associated with Form II. But as I understand it, one paragraph from one book that implies a relationship simply isn't enough. (Sirius Shadowflame 18:31, 11 January 2007 (UTC))

Exar Kun?
I know that since the introduction of the lightsaber combat forms Exar Kun is often stated to have mastered the Makashi style, but from the comic books his fencing technique looks way more brutal and aggressive. Kun also seems to lack the self-control of a Dooku, for example. Does anyone know a particular source confirming Kun's Makashi mastery, or is that probably only some sort of fanon? In that case i would suggest to add a short note to the article. -- Edeas 14:07, 13 Jan 2006 (UTC) Some where here on wookiepedia it actually staes that Exar Kun is a Makashi practitioner.
 * Exar Kun's mastery of Makashi was mentioned in an issue of the Star Wars Insider. I think it was #62, but I can't be sure. Ace Venom 03:13, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Exar Kun is NOT a Makashi user, stated in my discussion below. Please kindly inform me which Wookiee entry indicate Exar is a Makashi user, so that I can remove it. Darth Kevinmhk 04:36, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Exar Kun is a practitioner of Makashi, but he simply combines it with his use of the other styles. user:Darth Vatrir
 * Exar Kun is NOT a Makashi user. Provide canonical source to back up your claim please. Darth Kevinmhk 03:41, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Users
For being such a rare form, there seem to be a lot of people out there using Makashi. -- SFH 01:48, 15 February 2006 (UTC) Not among the Jedi. Considering the thousands of Jedi there are during the Clone Wars, only a small fraction use Makashi. - Alpha Fire 21:19, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Two cent man: Makashi seems a highly unusual choice for a Wookiee. Given the tremendous strength displayed by the species, Djem So is a far more natural choice. Just a thought on Master Tyvokka. Not that he COULDN'T, it just doesn't feel right. 74.132.136.109 07:47, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
 * just think though, a lot of people? theres around 10,000 jedi and we have seen what around 10 different cases? Jedi Dude 09:20, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
 * To tell you the truth, the only confirmed Makashi user is Dooku, every one else is all theory and speculation based on observations and speculations. Dooku is the only one that is explicitly said to use Makashi. user:Darth Vatrir
 * To tell you the truth, Cin Drallig, Grievous and his IG-100 are all confirmed Makashi users. Sources are Order 66: Destroy All Jedi and Labyrinth of Evil respectively. Darth Kevinmhk 09:20, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Oh... Well other than them, no one is confirmed.user:Darth Vatrir (And the IG-100s don't qualify as characters.)

Sev'rance Tann

 * Can someone give more source for Sev'rance Tann's mastery? Otherwise I vote that we put Sev'rance Tann into Behind the scenes. The main article should only record confirmed masters. Darth Kevinmhk 03:10, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
 * It should go in Bts, yes. Yrfeloran 03:24, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Done. Darth Kevinmhk 04:04, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

ALERT: No Exar Kun!

 * Alright, I wanna prove this for a long time: The so-called Exar Kun = Makashi Master originally appeared on this site: http://swg.stratics.com/content/gameplay/professions/jedi/lightsaber_combat.php which does not bear any real canonical value. Furthermore, a friend of mine sent me a scan of the original Insider #62 to prove that Exar was not mentioned in the Insider article (I can upload it if the discussion requires its presence). Therefore I vote for removing Exar from this article (and removing Makashi from Exar's article) unless another source can be found to counter my claim. Thanks for your kind attention. Darth Kevinmhk 12:56, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
 * If this is fanon, it's pretty widespread, but it's starting to smell like fanon to me too. Yrfeloran 02:07, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Because not all fans own Insider... so most of them thought the site above contain the truth and the whole truth of Insider #62, in fact the site above is missing many information, and now contain possibile fanon. Ya, this is so widespread that almost everyone, including seasoned fans on OS believed that Exar Kun is a Makashi master mentioned in #62. Darth Kevinmhk 02:12, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
 * This site actually uploaded the whole Fightsaber article! http://www.dmeb2.org/darthmaulsection/swinsider62.html Please check that Exar Kun was not mentioned, unless another source can be provided, please remove Exar's name from Makashi user. Darth Kevinmhk 03:38, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Nihilus

 * I did not play KOTOR2, can someone please verify whether Nihilus really used Makashi? Even Nihilus' article only said he used a style "similar" to Makashi. Thanks. Darth Kevinmhk 02:38, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I guess someone looked at the "Feedback" tab of KotORII and somehow concluded that Nihilus's style was Makashi. - TopAce 12:55, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Let's hope he/she is right. Darth Kevinmhk 13:05, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
 * It looks like fanon speculation really. Just because one wields a lightsaber with one hand doesn't make one a form 2 user.
 * No one say adding Nihilus into the article was based on he wielding 1 saber with 1 hand. Darth Kevinmhk 03:43, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
 * As I said, the one who added Nihilus probably took a look at the in-game statistics and concluded Nihilus using Makashi. - TopAce 19:22, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Nihilus; Master of Makashi?
I can safefully say that this is unsubstantiated nonsense. Not only is his lightsabre style not elaborated upon, it also looks nothing like Makashi with all of it's backflips and general acrobatics. It's probably that Nihilus used some kind of unique style rather than anything else. I've edited the article to represent this.

Makashi isn't weak against blaster bolt deflection!
This is part of KotOR II's [i]gameplay[/i] forms which don't reflect canon. Makashi hasn't been shown to be sucky in blaster bolt deflection at all apart from in gameplay which is un-canonical.


 * however there are sources such as star wars insider etc which have showen it to be anon were not just relying on games...Jedi Dude 14:12, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Which articles in particular?


 * sign your posts? or join... anyway there was a lightsaber article in one insdier i belive. its not just from a game. Jedi Dude 16:42, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Fightsaber: Jedi Lightsaber Combat. The article states that first Form I was developed, then Form II was created to answer blade-to-blade combat, then Form III was created to answer the threat of blasters. Darth Kevinmhk 16:45, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Form II is believed to have died out with Count Dooku's death
Hopefully if someone in Luke's time was to ever find the fighting forms to Form II they would teach it to the Jedi. For them not to do that would be like saying that nobody should learn Karate since we have guns.


 * Wait, where does this come from? -  Angel Blue [[Image:Holocron negwt.jpg|20px]](Holonet) 23:52, 18 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Well... even before Dooku was killed Form II was no longer taught to the Jedi. It seems to have died with both Count Dooku and Cin Drallig.

In sources it says:

Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords Darth Bane: Path of Destruction Fightsaber: Jedi Lightsaber Combat - Star Wars Insider 62 Star Wars Episode II: Attack of the Clones The Visual Dictionary Labyrinth of Evil Star Wars Episode III: Revenge of the Sith novel Order 66: Destroy All Jedi

Why isn't there anything on Form II past Order: 66? Is there... or was there a Jedi from Luke's time that does or did know Form II???


 * wait a minute, it couldn't have died out completely. katarn was the battlemaster and a good portion of his own training came from fencing lessons at the imperial academy. so there's a little bit of form 2 in the njo--Black Jack Scarron 15:45, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
 * You can be the best lightsaber-wielder in the galaxy without having a clue about Makashi. - TopAce 19:30, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeah because the jedi would make no records of these forms. Umm...no. Not every book in which forms were used mention them by name. It is very unlikely that something as important as this would be allowed to simply die. Any stretch of the imagination would be an obvious no.


 * Much was lost after order 66. That's what it says it's believed to have died with Dooku. And until a Star Wars books says otherwise.... Form II is gone.


 * Yes but it is best not to mention it all together. Besides NJO don't seem to master only one form. I've observed that they seem to master all forms, but being as they are a more martial order than the previous it also makes since. Besides Luke's bladework surpasses any other character in SW, so if the forms were lost, which is unlikely, then it doesn't seem to hurt them.


 * You have nothing that says that it's still around and used.


 * You have nothing that says it isn't around so where does that leave us? In all probability it survived but it needs to be confirmed in a canon source. I dunno who started this rumor but I think it is now time to dismiss it. DarthMalus


 * Like it's Appearances and Sources says


 * Labyrinth of Evil
 * Star Wars Episode III: Revenge of the Sith novelization
 * Order 66: Destroy All Jedi

Until the name Makashi is used in Luke's time... it's gone.


 * Thats like saying because a character who appeared in a clone wars novel doesn't appear in a NJO novel so they must be dead, we don't know if they are or not. Until it is stated in canon one way or the other we can't know and I don't think we should assume. Grunny (Talk) 10:05, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Also considering that Corran Horn had a holorecord of Yoda teaching lightsaber combat to younglings also makes it unlikely that it died out. DarthMalus
 * However, Makashi was a particularly rare form and used by very, very few. Dooku and Drallig are assumed to have been the last people to use Makashi. Yoda taught Shii-Cho, first of all. And looking at the fast style, medium style, and strong style, there doesn't seem to be any comparable attributes to Makashi. So we can say that is assumed to have died out. Atarumaster88  [[Image:Jedi_Order.jpg|20px]] ( Audience Chamber ) 22:42, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, but it is possible forms beside the Fast, Medium and Strong styles were taught. Also, just an idea, the School of Hidden Wisdom was a dueling academy that survived the Jed Purge and some whose members joined the NJO, it is possible Makashi could have survived through this. Either way, as an encyclopedia, I just think we should deal with facts and avoid assumptions. Makashi may very well be dead, but it might not, so I think it should be left out of the article. Grunny (Talk) 04:22, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
 * The article does not state that it definitely died out- it is believed to have died out. The material will be placed into a BTS section though. Atarumaster88  [[Image:Jedi_Order.jpg|20px]] ( Audience Chamber ) 05:17, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Name
Mukashi (in Japanese) means a long time ago, past. This probably irrelevent but it could mean something.
 * Well, Makashi is considered an outdated, obselete style by most, due to its focus on blade-to-blade combat over blade-to-gun, which is the most practical. Darth Vatrir (pronounced Va-Trear)
 * Don't forget A long time ago in a galaxy, far, far away. - TopAce 19:29, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm not forgetting the A long time ago in a galaxy, far, far, away stuff, I'm just saying that the guys who wrote about and essentially created this style maybe gave it that name for some reason. Lord Darth Vatrir

Semi-protection

 * This article is now semi-protected, to halt repeated fanon, original research, and POV, by decree of Atarumaster88  [[Image:Jedi_Order.jpg|20px]] ( Audience Chamber ). Any complaints may be directed to  Atarumaster88  [[Image:Jedi_Order.jpg|20px]] ( Audience Chamber ). And for everyone else, I'm keeping an eye on this page, so if you want to add anything "new", please indicate the source somewhere per the new rules.  Atarumaster88  [[Image:Jedi_Order.jpg|20px]] ( Audience Chamber ) 23:46, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Common moves and maneuvers wookification
I have edited the common moves and maneuvers section in an attempt to wookify it. Does anything else need to be done done to that section or can I remove the tag? Grunny (Talk) 06:10, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
 * It still has present tense verbs, and some other minor things. Atarumaster88  [[Image:Jedi_Order.jpg|20px]] ( Audience Chamber ) 15:45, 4 February 2007 (UTC)