Talk:Anakin Skywalker/Archive/Darth Vader/1

"Three" duels with Luke?
Requested: As per the SW Expanded Universe, this article refers to the first duel between Darth Vadar and Luke Skywalker to have occured on Circarpous V, when Governor Bin Essada learns that Skywalker and Princess Leia were there and informs Darth Vadar. On the jungle world, Vadar is said to have "faced the Rebels in the abandoned Temple of Pomojema." Aparently the "first" duel between Vadar and Luke begins here, while guided by the spirit of Obi-Wan, Luke severs Vader's prosthetic right arm in combat. Though Vader survives the wound, he is toppled into a sacrificial well as the fight resumes, and the Rebels escape.

If this is all true to the "continuity" of the SW universe, then why does this article make the error later on under the heading of Darth Vadar's Talents, by saying "in the first climactic duel with his son (which takes place on Cloud City according to ESB), a blow from Luke's lightsaber appears to bounce off Vader's armor, although it still elicits a yell of pain from the Sith Lord." I am throughly confused by this "first" duel, since I have never read about the supposed encounter on Circarpous V. Either fix the error to incorporate all "three" duels between Vadar and Luke, or remove the mention of the first duel on Circarpous V. Thank you. --Necromancing 16:35, 03 Oct 2005 (UTC) +
 * You know, new topics go to the BOTTOM of the talk page, as the first topic could be very important, like the merge. And plus, Splinter of the Mind's Eye really isn't considered actual in-universe material. So, that duel of Circarpous V should be removed, or placed in the Behind the Scenes section or something. Cmdr. J. Nebulax 23:37, 3 Oct 2005 (UTC) +
 * That's wrong. Splinter is in Continuity. It's in the Vader Guide. It's three duels. --Master Starkeiller 12:52, 4 Oct 2005 (UTC)
 * I would be interested in knowing the source that states the "first" duel on Circarpous V is indeed in SW continuity. Has Lucas authorized or accepted this as part of continuity? Since he did not author Splinter himself, I find it unlikely that he took the "first" duel into consideration as part of continuity when he made ESB. The original trilogy makes it clear that Luke and Vadar only duel twice. If they in fact duelled three times as Splinter suggests, then Lucas makes no mention of this in ANH/ESB/ROTJ, and in fact the development of the characters and the story itself would be incorrect if they did not make reference to the first duel on Circarpous V. I motion to strike the Splinter reference from this "offical" Darth Vadar bio. It needs to be somewhere else, because here it will only confuse the casual fans.--Necromancing 12:29, 4 Oct 2005 (UTC)
 * Well, it is in official timelines, it is in Continuity. I don't see how it doesn't fit, it wasn't much of a duel anyway. It was actually Obi-Wan fighting Vader with the Kaiburr crystal in between. It's been ret-coned. --Master Starkeiller 20:25, 4 Oct 2005 (UTC)
 * Well, the book sometimes isn't considered Star Wars canon. So, the duel might be Luke/Vader's first, or, it could not even be considered a duel of their's at all. Cmdr. J. Nebulax 22:35, 4 Oct 2005 (UTC)
 * Even if it has been retconed, I feel this opens up a can of worms so to speak. That this "first" duel was not mentioned or apparently remembered by any of the characters in ESB or ROTJ, is a weak plot point IMO. Wouldn't Vadar feel a bit cautious when fighting Luke in Cloud City, if he thought that he/Obi-Wan might pull their Kaiburr crystal trick again? I mean getting one's arm severed twice in a lifetime is a pretty big deal don't you think? If his arm was served again, then it must have been below the elbow for him to still have felt that blow from Luke in ESB. I for one think that the EU should be seperated from Episodes I-VI. I feel a vote is in order to strike these Splinter references and any other EU references from Vadar/Luke bios. Any post ROTJ EU references are fine, since episodes VII-IX are unlike to ever get made by Lucas anyway.--Necromancing 17:37, 4 Oct 2005 (UTC)
 * Actually, there is at least one line in ESB that, when read one way, suggest the characters remember the duel. Kenobi's ghost tells Luke, "If you choose to face Vader, you will do it alone. I cannot interfere." Why would he even need to mention it unless there was reason for Luke to think that he *could* interfere? Also, Vader managed to acquire a shard of the Kaiburr crystal, so he knew as well as anyone that its power diminished the further one went from Pomojema, so he needn't worry about Kenobi. And his artificial arm still had feeling - watch him react in pain to it being severed in Return of the Jedi. jSarek 02:19, 5 Oct 2005 (UTC)
 * Hmmm. Okay, I'll buy that explanation JSarek. It's not too far fetched to believe that could be the case. However, isn't it a little much for "newbies" to read the Vadar bio and have to sift through the many EU references, having to weed out what happened in the movies, against what happens in EU? The article should preface the EU references by says something like "...according to the Star Wars Expanded Universe novel Splinter of the Mind's Eyes, it is said that Luke and Vadar duelled for the first time on Circarpous V..." or something like that? Given Darth Vadar is probablly the most culturally signifigant character in the SW universe (even grandma knows who he is), I feel the bio should only include episode I-VI references, so that there are fewer aspects of the story to dispute. Am I wrong here?--Necromancing 23:55, 4 Oct 2005(UTC)
 * I think that there's not that great of a need for an encyclopedia that only covers information from the films; one can know everything there is to know about the films by spending a day or two watching them, or by reading "The Movies" tags at the Databank. The place where an encyclopedia is truly needed is in covering the whole of Star Wars continuity, where widely-known sources like the films and the Thrawn Trilogy can be brought together with really obscure stuff like Lords of the Expanse or The Farlander Papers. As for seperating the stuff out, the movies and the EU are fairly heavily intertwined, because they're treated as the same continuity. Technically, for instance, there are no Twi'leks in the films, just unnamed aliens with head tails drooping off of their skulls. In my opinion, seperating information out like this not only violates our policy on out-of-universe entries, but it fails to capture how all of this stuff fits together. jSarek 07:21, 5 Oct 2005 (UTC)

Merge
Now since Darth Sidious and Palpatine are merged, shouldn't we merge Darth Vader and Anakin Skywalker, or at least place a vote for merging? - Sikon 09:26, 5 Jul 2005 (UTC)

If they are both merged together, is it gonna be under "Anakin Skywalker" or "Darth Vader"?
 * I could go either way. I believe that there is enough of a difference between the two, and enough content, for two articles. --SparqMan 18:46, 14 Jul 2005 (UTC)
 * No need for a merge here. These are two distinct characters, rather than the split identities of Palpatine. -- Riffsyphon1024 05:38, 15 Jul 2005 (UTC)
 * Definatly two distict characters, the offical site has two articles, and they are generally treated as two different characters by in universe characters.--Davin Rayce 21:05, 15 Jul 2005 (UTC)
 * The official Databank has distinct articles for Darth Sidious and Palpatine, too. And in Wikipedia, Darth Vader and Anakin Skywalker are merged. But I understand, the idea to merge them is so ridiculous that the notice was removed before a consensus. Thanks. - Sikon 13:55, 22 Jul 2005 (UTC)
 * For those in favour of a merge, I might note that the New Essential Guide to Characters has separate articles for Palpatine and Sidious but ONE for Vader and Anakin. It's up to us, really. QuentinGeorge 23:42, 22 Jul 2005 (UTC)
 * They only had two different articles for Palpatine and Darth Sidious in the New Essential Guide to Characters because the book was published and writen before Episode III came out. For all the writer knew, Sidious could have been Palpatine's evil twin or something. If they ever do another edition, they will have Darth Sidious and Palpatine under one article, probably. KFan II 10:19, 27 Jul 2005 (UTC)
 * If they were to be merged, put it under Anakin Skywalker. KFan II 15:04, 29 Jul 2005 (UTC)
 * I agree that they should be merged under Anakin Skywalker. THX-1138

ANAKIN SKYWALKER IS NOT DARTH VADER: the only thing the two have in common is a body (1/4 of a body after ROTS)go to the Starwars website for the final answer:

Anakin can be found here:

http://www.starwars.com/databank/character/anakinskywalker/index.html

It states the following per GL:He is listed as showing up in the following movies: I, II, III, VI "His eyes burning with Sith intensity, it became clear that Anakin was no longer the same hero he once was. He was firmly entrenched in darkness, even bringing his blade to snuff out the bright lives of the Jedi younglings. Skywalker was no more. He could not hear the entreaties of his friends and loved ones to return from the darkness. As Darth Vader, he killed the leadership of the Separatists, bringing an end to the Clone Wars. In his rage, he would bring about the death of his wife, fulfilling the terrifying vision that prompted his turn to forbidden knowledge."

Vader Can be found here: http://www.starwars.com/databank/character/darthvader/

It states the following per GL:He is listed as showing up in the following movies: III, IV, V, VI He abandoned his former identity. Sidious took Vader from Mustafar to an Imperial rehabilitation center where he was rebuilt. When metal coupled with flesh in the form of cyborg implants and enhancements required to sustain him, Skywalker's transformation was complete. He was no longer Anakin. He was Darth Vader.

the above is from the man who CREATED the MOVIES he know more about Anakin Skywalker then anyone keep them split
 * I say keep it as both articles. Why? Darth Sidious had practically no known information about him until Episode III came around. The Palpatine/Sidious merge was fine. But since there is a lot of information on Anakin and Vader separately, if we were to combine them, this page would be very long. Cmdr. J. Nebulax 23:48, 11 Nov 2005 (UTC)

Request
Requested: more information about the character. Less 'real world' stuff about toys and movie trivia. Any ideas for making this article, to quote Douglas Adams, "A less doomed one"? --Fade 19:00, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
 * working on a section regarding Vader's suit tech and his medical condition.--Eion 05:55, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * This section was just added by an Anon. If yours is better, I'd say it would be fine to just replace it. The current one seems a bit hyperbolic. – Aidje talk 14:47, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
 * For one thing, all of these hyperbolic statements are getting out of hand. And they just keep coming, too, thanks to our anonymous contributors. "The epitome of pure evil" is not by any means encyclopedic. – Aidje talk 19:37, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
 * One solution, as this fellow seems persistent; a ban. --Imperialles 19:41, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Ah, I don't think those were there when I posted. I think I managed to remove most of them when I revised the article. Oh well, got to have things like this to keep us on our toes, i guess. *rolls eyes* --Fade 21:17, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

Power
Anyone have the actualy source of the "80% as strong as the Emperor, would have been twice as powerful" deal? It's apparently from Lucas himself, but an actual quote in the sources would be nice- it's a pretty controversial statement otherwise. --Fade 23:59, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Not to mention totally relative. It's been pretty clearly stated that the amount of "power" a Force-user has is only limited by his will to release himself...etc. It's not like there is a big ol' Force-o-Meter we could hook Vader and Palpatine to. --SparqMan 00:01, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * I heard that this was from the Visual Dictionary. Unfortunately, I don't have the book, so I can't confirm this myself. JimRaynor55 00:54, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * I have yet to locate this information in the VD book. -- Riffsyphon1024 04:05, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * It's not from that, it from a George Lucas interview in Vanity Fair. I wouldn't take it as an exact statement. What Lucas *is* trying to say is that Anakin had the potential to be far greater in power than the Emperor, but the circumstances of his fall meant he never achieved his potential. QuentinGeorge 04:22, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Hate to say it but apparently there is canon sources that proves the concepts that a person's ability to use the Force can be diminished through severe injury. Vader might actually be a reason why Lucas introduced the concept of midichlorians, though that's just my conjecture. There had to be an explanation why Anakin, who is stated to having so much greater potention in the Force then everyone else, would stay subordinate to the Emperor as Darth Vader the cyborg. I'm not saying that it's impossible for a person to influence the Force without midichlorians as I think there is reason to support that claim as well, but it seems we're supposed to assume that usually people need midichlorians to act as a natural conduit to manipulate the Force. So, since midichlorians are found throughout the body then the more pieces of yourself you lose the less communication you can sustain through the Force. Kinda de-mystifing but it covers some plot-holes. Also, there was a question why Vader would remain a slow moving partial cyborg when it's possible to have even more of his body replaced with cybernetics and become a friggin slice-o-matic like Grievous. As a brain in powerful robot body Vader would have little to no control over the Force at all. No I don't have any sources to add right now, I'm just adding my conclusion my spending alot of time thinking about that very statement.--TheLIGHTSABERwieldingNERFHERDER 17:48, 2 Dec 2005 (UTC)

Home Planet
Since this article is about Darth Vader, not Anakin Skywalker, wouldn't Coruscant be a better choice for Home Planet? Anakin never returned to Tatooine after he became a Sith, and he was "born" (after a fashion) on Coruscant after all. QuentinGeorge 03:16, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * It would make sense, as they put on the mask and whatnot at Coruscant, Vader was "born". -- Riffsyphon1024 04:06, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Vader was "born" before the black costume etc. was put on him. Anakin was Vader when he slaughtered the Separatists and fought Obi-Wan. I would prefer the two articles to be merged, as on Wikipedia. - Sikon 10:13, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Nah, Sik, Anakin Skywalker and Darth vader are two different persons. Vader, as a mechanized half-human cyborg, was born on Coruscant, after nearly being killed by obi-Wan. --Imp 10:16, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * So you imply the man who nearly choked Amidala to death was the same Anakin who once loved her? - Sikon 14:08, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Yes. Darth Vader was merely a name at that time. When Anakin was recreated, Vader became the person. Imp 15:40, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Before we merge Anakin Skywalker and Darth Vader, someone still has to merge Darth Sidious and Palpatine, since we've actually voted on them. QuentinGeorge 10:26, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Why not just take an already merged (and detailed) article from Wikipedia? - Sikon 14:07, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Because then we'd have to re-wookify the damn thing. -- Riffsyphon1024 14:10, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * And find the sources and verify the information. Ugh. --Imp 14:14, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

ANAKIN SKYWALKER IS NOT DARTH VADER: the only thing the two have in common is a body (1/4 of a body after ROTS)go to the Starwars website for the final answer:

Anakin can be found here:

http://www.starwars.com/databank/character/anakinskywalker/index.html

It states the following per GL:He is listed as showing up in the following movies: I, II, III, VI "His eyes burning with Sith intensity, it became clear that Anakin was no longer the same hero he once was. He was firmly entrenched in darkness, even bringing his blade to snuff out the bright lives of the Jedi younglings. Skywalker was no more. He could not hear the entreaties of his friends and loved ones to return from the darkness. As Darth Vader, he killed the leadership of the Separatists, bringing an end to the Clone Wars. In his rage, he would bring about the death of his wife, fulfilling the terrifying vision that prompted his turn to forbidden knowledge."

Vader Can be found here: http://www.starwars.com/databank/character/darthvader/

It states the following per GL:He is listed as showing up in the following movies: III, IV, V, VI He abandoned his former identity. Sidious took Vader from Mustafar to an Imperial rehabilitation center where he was rebuilt. When metal coupled with flesh in the form of cyborg implants and enhancements required to sustain him, Skywalker's transformation was complete. He was no longer Anakin. He was Darth Vader.

the above is from the man who CREATED the MOVIES he know more about Anakin Skywalker then anyone keep them split
 * Uh, chill. In a way, these articles should be merged, but I think we should keep them as two separate ones. That way, when you search "Darth Vader", you get Darth Vader, not Anakin Skywalker, depite the fact that they were one in the same. Cmdr. J. Nebulax 20:39, 29 Sep 2005 (UTC)

Vader's Jedi and Separatist kills
Do we need this list? It breaks up the article and interrupts the flow. And yet again I see it baldly stated that Vader killed A'Sharad Hett. Where is this stated? QuentinGeorge 06:46, 29 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * I guess they just assumed he must've died during the Purge like (mostly) everybody else. MarcK 20:17, 15 Jul 2005 (UTC)

While we're at it, do we really need a list of the separatists Vader killed, along with an exact description of how they were killed and what they said as they begged for their lives? Probably not, so I'm deleting it. &mdash; Silly Dan 18:55, 24 Jul 2005 (UTC)

His Lost Love
In Revenge of the Sith, Anakin told Palpatine he would help him if he saved Padme, so when he became Vader and Palpatine told him she was dead, why didn't Vader try to kill him for breaking his promise? Double D 23:39, 24 Sep 2005 (UTC)
 * Well, he did try the Force scream, but I admit that was reflexive. Maybe Vader felt he had nothing left to live for, and planned to kill Palpatine when the time was right? --SFH 23:43, 24 Sep 2005 (UTC)
 * First of all, if he tried to kill him he'd ended up crispy cyborg bacon. Second, he didn't do it just for his wife, but for the power too. He preffered ruling the Galaxy to being just another Jedi Knight. Third, where would he go? His father was now Palpy and all his other father figures and family were dead or hated him. --Master Starkeiller 23:47, 24 Sep 2005 (UTC)

"Darth Vader begins to speak. He asks what happened to Padmé. Darth Sidious tells him that in his anger, Vader killed her. In Vader's rage he calls upon the Force to destroy everything around him, including Palpatine, though he can no longer touch the Force the way he once did—only droids and equipment implode around him as he cries "Noooooooo!""
 * He didn't try to kill Palpy. --Master Starkeiller 23:48, 24 Sep 2005 (UTC)
 * Not to mention Palpatine told Vader it was his own damn fault. So he's hardly going to be able to blame Sidious for not saving her when Vader killed her himself. QuentinGeorge 00:18, 25 Sep 2005 (UTC)
 * Since when has Vader been concerned about the details of someone's failure? -- SFH 00:20, 25 Sep 2005 (UTC)

Another question. When he become Vader, he ask about Padme, but if Padme betraded Anakin, then why didn't he just forgot about her? (I know Padme didn't really betrade him, I'm just asking about Anakin's "Point of View") Double D 19:03, 27 Sep 2005 (UTC)


 * Because Anakin loved her! No matter how eveil he became he never forgot it was to save Padmé, his one true love from harm. Jasca Ducato 17:15, 28 Sep 2005 (UTC)

Yeh, so how come he used his Force Grip on her if he's trying to protect her from harm? Double D 18:58, 28 Sep 2005 (UTC)
 * Simple. Vader believes that Padme led Obi-Wan to him on Mustafar. Cmdr. J. Nebulax 19:48, 28 Sep 2005 (UTC)
 * Also, his motives were basically selfish all along: he didn't care about Padm&eacute;&mdash;he cared about her being with him. There's a big difference. When he thought that she was stealing herself away from him, it really showed that he didn't actually care about her as a person. Sure, there may have been elements of something else, but his primary concern was his own gratification. If this were not the case, then he would have let her walk away rather than hurting her. – Aidje talk 19:59, 28 Sep 2005 (UTC)
 * I don't think so, i believe that at the time he was so engrossed with anger that he attacked her on the spur of the moment, a "crime of passion" so to speak. If he was acting rational at the time i doubt he would have Force Grip'ed Padmé. Jasca Ducato 20:36, 28 Sep 2005 (UTC)

In AOTC, the bad guys were trying to kill Padme. Even those Papaltine promise to save Padme, was he really planning to have her killed, or was that just something Anakin did on his own? If Palpatine was planning to kill Padme, then how long was he planning it, since 32 bby, 22 bby or 19 bby? Double D 21:34, 28 Sep 2005 (UTC)

Palpatine had no intention of killing Padme during the Blockade of Naboo, that has been established. The assassination attempts during the prelude to the Clone Wars were probably engineered to placate Gunray, or maybe reunite Anakin with Padme. Also, there is some justification for the Crime of Passion theory. Mace Windu mentioned to Obi-Wan he felt that the war had driven Anakin's emotional stability to the edge. The political tug of war that the Council, Palpatine, and Padme placed him in also probably didn't help. Maybe seeing Padme with Obi-Wan was just the straw that broke the Bantha's back. -- SFH 22:08, 28 Sep 2005 (UTC)

Actually in the novel of Revenge of the Sith, Vader did try to kill Palpatine, but his connection to the force was not the same anymore. It also states the before suffering the injuries on Mustafar, he was infact more powerful than Mace, Yoda, Obi Wan, and Palpatine.

Help Tasty Taste
Re:, can a Hyperspace member please post that on page 23 of Before the Storm, Senator Tig Peramis makes it clear that he knows the relationship between Leia Organa Solo and Darth Vader. Perhaps he knows that as a member of the Council of Common Defense he was permitted access to that intelligence. Regardless, it means a whole bunch of high level government officials were aware by that 16 ABY. Thanks! --SparqMan 05:58, 17 Oct 2005 (UTC)
 * Done. QuentinGeorge 06:19, 17 Oct 2005 (UTC)

Main Image
I'm sorry but the main image is God-Awful. It should be a good frontal helmet shot, not a above head shot that doesn't define the character of Vader well (his neck looks way too thin in this image) Redemption
 * I think it's not so bad. Better than the low-quality main image you put on the Palpatine page, at any rate :-P (No offense intended) --Azizlight 00:17, 25 Oct 2005 (UTC)
 * Thats what happens when I'm forced to save it as a jpg image at a minimum quality. If anyone can come up with anything better from ROTJ then feel free to fix it. But the one that currently sits on the Vader page really doesn't make Vader look powerful, evil enough that a full profile shot would.
 * The picture is still really bad. The currently one is very..weak. I'll try and find a replacement, and place it here first before we make a decision. I have two i'd like to use, but i'm not sure where I got them from, and cannot affirm copyright. --AronoBashlar 21:29, 3 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * How about this picture for the main image?--Knightfall 20:56, 27 Nov 2005 (UTC)[[Image:VaderPromo.jpg|center|thumb|100px]]
 * That's good, but I don't think the current one needs to be replaced. Admiral J. Nebulax 21:08, 27 Nov 2005 (UTC)

Breathing
Hey, wait a minute...why don't we have an audio file of Darth Vader's breathing? It's like an essential part of his character...or at least one that is extremely well known. -- SFH 14:09, 25 Oct 2005 (UTC)
 * Yea, why not? (That's a rhetorical question) I'll have a look and try and extract an audio file. I'm sure i have one on my pc. Jasca Ducato 14:13, 25 Oct 2005 (UTC)

Does the 'discussion' tab on Darth Vader redirect..
..anyone else to the main page? I had to use a few tricks to get here. I'm using FireFox, btw. -Arono
 * The idiot user SuperShadow fooled around with the page and made it redirect to the Main Page. It's fixed, now. Cmdr. J. Nebulax 00:04, 3 Nov 2005 (UTC)

White Vader Picture Request
Does someone have the white Darth Vader from the ROTJ Infinities comic? That picture is definitely both unique and funny enough to get put up here. Kuralyov 21:31, 19 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * [[Image:WhiteVader.jpg|thumb|300px|right|Darth Vader in his White Armour.]]Will this one do? :) -Jaymach Ral'Tir 21:59, 19 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * WTF?!? Adamwankenobi 22:38, 19 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * At the end, Vader is redeemed, but lives and Palpatine flees.
 * Relax, it's Infinities, don't worry. -- SFH 22:43, 19 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * Very interesting... Cmdr. J. Nebulax 00:31, 20 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * He looks awful... --Master Starkeiller 15:41, 20 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * You say that, but once you get use to seeing it... it wont look so bad. Jasca Ducato 15:50, 20 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * Thankfully, I won't have to... Vader died. Well, except if they make Infinities Episodes 7, 8 and 9... Brrr... White leather... --Master Starkeiller 15:54, 20 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * Well, you never know... But I hope there won't be anymore pictures of a white Vader. Cmdr. J. Nebulax 20:31, 20 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * Man, it's ugly. Looks like some unfinished concept artworkKEJ 20:38, 20 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * Well, thank God the Infinities are non-canon. Cmdr. J. Nebulax 20:42, 20 Nov 2005 (UTC)