Forum:SH:Aayla Secura and Wikia's TOU

Hi all. I'm here to talk about something that's likely to be controversial. As you may know, we’ve recently been reviewing images that have been uploaded to Wikia, due to repeated ToU violations. Instead of deleting problem images when we get complaints about them, we have started to actively look for and remove them across Wikia. Wookieepedia hasn't been impacted by this so far of course, almost all of your images are non-explicit and your admins do a great job of removing any vandalism.

However, there is one image of Aayla Secura that shows her fully naked. I'm aware that this is an image that's been discussed by the community and that the consensus is to keep it. It's very hard to go against that consensus, but the image is also outside our Terms of Use and needs to be removed.

To be more specific, the Terms of Use state that content must not be "obscene, pornographic, abusive, offensive [or] profane". Obviously, that is open to a lot of interpretation. But the line we have drawn is that we don't allow shock images, images of sexual acts, or images of nudity. And that includes the Aayla image.

I see that the Breast article has several alternative images. Perhaps one of those can be moved in to the top image spot. The alternative is to use censorship bars or pixelation on the image, but I think that would take the page further away from its intent than an alternative example.

I'm sorry to have to ask for this image's removal and hope you understand the need in this very unusual case.. -- sannse http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb32675/wikia/images/e/e9/WikiaStaff.png (help forum | blog)  19:05, October 9, 2012 (UTC)
 * For the record, Wikia also hosts the "Naked Wiki", complete with more than a few completely nude and irreverent real people in real daily life, which is far, far more "obscene, pornographic, abusive, offensive, and profane" than an official Lucasfilm-licensed piece of artwork. I'm failing to understand the logic here, other than you guys have decided to pander to one of our more immature, unsupervised visitors who just couldn't get over this image. Toprawa and Ralltiir (talk) 19:19, October 9, 2012 (UTC)

Allow me to speak for the entire community, as a Wookieepedia bureaucrat:  No.  We will not remove it, and we will fight you. If we have to, we will resort to the methods we have learned from our enemies over the last seven years. Thank you, and have a Wookiee-tastic day. -- Darth Culator  (Talk) 19:20, October 9, 2012 (UTC)


 * Just to make short comment about this: we cannot have descriptive image of a breast without nudity. We could have descriptive image of a garment used to cover breast without nudity, but I would rather not go to that direction. (I don't even begin wondering how only female breast is the issue here) (: – Tm_T@Wookieepedia:&#126;$ 19:23, October 9, 2012 (UTC)
 * Also a followup question: what part in the image is what is the problem? A nipple? Areola? Some other part of the image? Also I'm interested to know is that image considered obscene, or pornographic, abusive, offensive or profane? I'm asking as I suspect this is partly a cultural thing and there's no really possibility to adhere the rule (making rule a non-rule from my POV) if there's no way to pinpoint what is the problem. (: – Tm_T@Wookieepedia:&#126;$ 19:57, October 9, 2012 (UTC)
 * really, this again??? If I didn't know better, I'd say we were getting trolled. <- Omicron (Leave a message at the BEEP! ) 19:36, October 9, 2012 (UTC)

Toprawa and Ralltiir: That wiki has already had several images deleted and the only reason other images are still there is that they haven't been reviewed yet. The will be gone as soon as they show on the review tool (or sooner if I have time to do it manually). There are literally millions of images on Wikia, so it's going to take a while until we are caught up with checking them all.

Tm_T: There are other images on the page that could be moved up, and likely more available that could also illustrate the article well. My question would be: if this one unusually explicit image had not been introduced into canon, how would you illustrate this article?

As we are an American company, we have to go by US norms and mores. That means that female breasts are considered a problem, while male chest are seen as just fine. I don't know why either, but it's the reality we live with.

As I mentioned above, the line is no shock images, images of sexual acts, or images of nudity. "Nudity" includes visible nipples and areola on females, visible genitals or the full pubic area, and fully naked butts. As to which word we use to cover this - it's a combination of the terms. What's meant by that line is "excessively explicit stuff", and it really doesn't make sense to consider each word in isolation

Omicron: I know :-/ I saw the previous discussions and really hoped that we wouldn't need to have this one. But when it came down to it, it is outside the ToU and has to go -- sannse http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb32675/wikia/images/e/e9/WikiaStaff.png (help forum | blog)  20:22, October 9, 2012 (UTC)
 * So let me get this straight: of the 52,793 images uploaded to the Wook, spread across 97,365 articles, you have an issue with exactly ... one? And you freely admit that there is a wiki called Naked Wiki that appears to upload nude images on a semi-daily basis? And you take no action but to slap them on the wrists and delete the images in question? And so you come over here and demand an image removal? Way to get priorities straight, there Wikia. We have one, they have several, I can see why we were more important. So, I assume this image of Michelangelo's David and Nymph with Morning Glory Flowers will be removed from the Psychology Wiki? And if you want to argue they are protected as art, I'll argue black and blue that they're offensive to me. Because the Aayla is an artistic image. Of an alien, not a Human. Tell me, if it was a nude Whiphid, or Baragwin with identifiable breasts, would we really be having this conversation? - Cavalier One FarStar.svg( Squadron channel ) 20:42, October 9, 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, in that case, there are several excellent candidates for you to choose from to start deleting first. My favorites are the Group of people mooning (up since 2006), "Complete Pumpkin Debauchery" (up since 2007), Aalya Secura lookalike taking a bath (up since 2006), Four naked women standing around (up since 2006), Male human buttocks (up since 2006), Naked street baby (up since 2006), Naked guy gardening (up since 2006), or the Creepy old guy struggling to get a stiffy (up since September 2012). Since we're not allowed to show nudity even in the form of artistic expression, as I would clearly classify this Aayla Secura image, there are also a few classical paintings of nude boys boating (up since 2006) or some classical Greco-Roman pieces (up since 2006). Since you guys are so intent on enforcing the TOU for images, I find it a bit strange that you simply haven't gotten around to handling any of these images for over six years now. A single complaint from a trouble-making Wookieepedian over our harmless image couldn't have been the impetus for you to suddenly start caring, could it? Toprawa and Ralltiir (talk) 20:45, October 9, 2012 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure it helps to get distracted by the process but... here's some details. We've only been doing this proactive image reviewing for a relatively short time, and haven't yet fully gone though all images.  There were several million images to review, and each needs to be looked at by a reviewer - we can't automate this.  Wookieepedia wasn't in the first batch, but images from here are showing up now (obviously, with the vast majority being marked as "OK").  We're also reviewing new images from all wikis before going back to older images.  Because of this reverse order, it's actually going to be more likely that you will find very old problem images than new ones (although we aren't yet getting through all the new ones either - we're working on it!).  On occasion, we go though all of a wiki's images manually (which looks to be needed for Naked), but mostly we get them as the review tool presents them to us.  We still have a large number of images in the queue - including some wikis that, like Wookieepedia, have only just been added.
 * This specific image turned up on the tool recently. Because I was already aware of the image, I marked it as OK until we could have this discussion.  One reason I was aware of it is that it had been one of several example images we used when discussing what was and wasn't OK.  The other is that it's the top result a Google search on "Wikia breast" and so has been used at least 4 times on various wikis in exactly the way you are using the links images above ("these exist, so why can't our image(s)").
 * I'm certainly not claiming that there aren't worse images than this one on Wikia. We've got a lot of work to do, and aren't doing it in order of explicitness - we can't know what's out there until we get to it.  But we can't pause on this one until we've done all the others either -- sannse http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb32675/wikia/images/e/e9/WikiaStaff.png  (help forum | blog)  21:32, October 9, 2012 (UTC)

Cue the "Not this shit again" image... And if this character can't even figure how to add an image to their signature correctly, I'd hazard a guess that we're probably just getting trolled. &mdash; DigiFluid(Whine here) 21:36, October 9, 2012 (UTC)