Talk:Revan/Legends

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End scenes of Forces of Corruption (SPOILERS)
On the Petroglyph Fan Forums, someone posted several screens from the end scenes of the historical campaign in Empire at War: Forces of Corruption. Now this contains some spoilers, so read on on your own incentive:

Apparently, Silri (Tyber Zann's henchman) uses a Sith Holocron (stolen by Zann from Jabba before the game even begins) to summon a map, showing the location of what appears to be Revan's final resting place. She goes there and there's thousands of Sith troopers encased in carbonite, with what appears to be a statue of Revan in the middle of the hall. Anyone with the game able to elaborate what's going on? :P VT-16 16:04, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Ooooh... --Imp 17:05, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Indeed VT-16 18:11, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Can we be sure it's Revan? =) --Imp 18:17, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
 * The players there appear to think so. At least the person has Sith troopers lined up like Terracotta soldiers.
 * EDIT: Appears someone on TFN has played the game and said there's nothing to indicate it's Revan. Apparently, the place is one of the Emperor's storehouses. VT-16 18:48, 27 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Would this not indicate that, ultimately, Revan's life ended as a darksider? Darth Abeonis Sith Council (Sith Campaign) 19:01, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Not really. --Imp 19:07, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
 * (1) Those look nothing like Sith troopers and (2) that's a statue of someone wearing hooded robes with a sword, which means it could be absolutely anyone. --  I need a name  ( Complain here ) 13:25, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I noticed that actually, it honestl could be anyone. Darth Abeonis Sith Council (Sith Campaign) 14:11, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
 * If you look at the helmet it does look like the Sith Troopers. But it could be another Sith Lord who knows.Shifter 10:27, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Wait, wasn't TESB when they first started testing carbonite on humans. Now, let's assume that it is Revan's tomb. One, does that mean even after sending the Star Forge sky high he rejoined the Sith, as Sith soldiers are standing there like in that one Chinese Emperor's tomb (I have no idea which one but it was one of the first one)? And second, (going back to the first sentence) if they were doing this in the 3950's-3940's, then why the heck would Darth Vader and the boys be experimenting with the EXACT SAME SUBSTANCE way in the future???? Now, I know, Star Wars history can be as inconsistent as the Carolina Panthers, but still... Oh and BTW, I hope Revan doesn't make a mortal appearance in the GCW era. HK-47 is one thing, being a well-maintained droid and all, but a human being some 4000 years later? Totally different story. Now, seeing a descendant of Revan of would be cool, however, but not a mortal Revan himself. (I was going to rant a little more but I'll shut up now...) DAWUSS 02:01, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
 * The big thing in ESB was that Han survived the process and could be reawakened. If I remember correctly, Lord Keto was frozen in carbonite just before the Sith Wars, so that in itself is not new. Charlii 11:21, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Revan = male?
sorry to bother, but i'm pretty much positive that revan can be female, too, depending on which gender you choose to play... Revan may be "canonically" male, but the issue is still a bone of contention among the fan base (Just type in "Revan + gender" on a KOTOR fanboard and clear your schedule). There's also the matter that, despite the canon declaration, female Revan outnumbers her "brother" by a three-to-one margin in fanfiction and fanart. While Wookieepedia does give greater weight to the canon of SW, it also includes articles on other fanon concepts and controversial issues. Would it be permissible to add mention of this controversey, or would a separate article be more appropriate? - Allronix  I know just who to ask for help with that, gents. Cheers!
 * While you can choose Revan's gender in the game, Revan is canonically male. And Wookieepedia follows canon information. -  Yoshi  626 [[Image:Yoshiegg.jpg|20px]] 01:59, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
 * And please don't start a "Exile = female?" topic in the Jedi Exile's talk page.-- Lord Oblivion Sith holocron[[Image:Oldsith.png|30px]] 03:32, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
 * We can't really argue against what has been canonically decided, but since its essentially fantasy anyway, there is nothing to say we cannot imagine our own fanon "alternate timelines" that make more sense to us. I personally like to believe that the canon situation with both Revan and the Exile is backwards: that Revan was female (and Dark Side at that) and the Exile male... as that just makes more sense to me (mostly down to narrative causality: I picked the choices that seemed most entertaining, particularly for bittersweet tragedies for Carth and Kreia respectively. There is also the matter of Revan being more cunning and calculating while the Exile seemed brash and direct)... but I don't believe for an instant that my beliefs invalidate what has been decided by other people. (I am however slightly bugged that the person who wrote that Droid book just happened to like the idea of a female Exile more). (~ SotiCoto)
 * Do you mean create an article on the controversy, or on the female Revan? (I'm opposed to both, to be honest.) -  Yoshi  626 [[Image:Yoshiegg.jpg|20px]] 03:17, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
 * An article on the controversey, mostly, with special attention paid to KOTOR fanfic and some of the gender-conditional features in the game. Honestly, the game itself seemed to lean female, since 75% of the largest dialogue tree, the second romance, and a third ending (you have to cheat a bit to get it, but it's there) were only present for female avatars. And if someone can present a better argument for a male Revan other than "Leland Chee said so, and therefore it's canon," great.
 * Well, there already is a significant section in BTS. And, like it or not, Leland Chee determines canon, and Revan is canonical male. Maybe an article covering all the gender controversies such as the Exile, Jaden Korr, and Revan could be made, but just an article on Revan's gender is not worthwhile. We at Wookieepedia document canon, not speculation. While the controversy exists, it's really not our problem except for people who try and mess up our articles. Any article made on the controversy would likely be very opinionated, which is the opposite of what we try and do here. Atarumaster88  [[Image:Jedi_Order.jpg|20px]] ( Audience Chamber ) 15:38, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Thought so. Frankly, male Exile played better as well. Brianna has a fuller backstory and better-defined character arc than Mical, going from the weakest and shunned one of her sisters to someone who can take pride and strength in herself. Atris's hostility takes on some interesting angles, too, and the sheer rancor she holds towards Exile makes a bit more sense. As a bonus, you get Kreia's creepiest line ever. Jaden Korr is probably the only one that truly favors neither.
 * I think our Sexes page is the best spot for that, and it already touches on it a bit. As for the Jaden situation... well, it's the "laziest" game difference, in that the only character change whatsoever between male and female is the voice. No difference at all between species. -BaronGrackle 20:12, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Honestly, the game itself seemed to lean female,[...]Frankly, male Exile played better as well. Both of these statements are opinion. Not fact. -  Yoshi  626 [[Image:Yoshiegg.jpg|20px]] 06:53, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
 * OK, it's speculation and opinion that Exile works better male. I'll grant that. The game's such a mess that it makes my head ache just trying to piece together the loose ends on the plot (not to mention rebooting my deck when the game's bugs crash it) no matter how it plays. As for the question about the controversey, Yoshi answered it adequately.
 * I agree with Atarumaster88. If an article has to be created on the controversy, it should be for every gender customizable character, not just Revan. -  Yoshi  626 [[Image:Yoshiegg.jpg|20px]] 20:35, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Has anyone ever tried clicking on I do not wish to discuss Revan in KOTOR 2 and saw the results. -- Yoshi  626  08:03, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
 * From the article:

If you have bastila as a party member, it only makes sence for Revan to be a male.
 * How so? Bastila is the female Revans party member also. I'm not argueing the damn canon (as much as I despise it) but what's your basis on that theory? -- Redemption [[Image:Redemptionusersymbol.png|25px]] Talk 02:25, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

It just makes sense if Revan was a male, considering everything in the Star Wars Universe since most of the heroes are males in general, that's why people were actually pissed when the Exile was female.
 * It makes sense because everyone else is? What kind of logic is that? If anything, it just gives a reason why Revan shouldn't have been made male...-- Redemption [[Image:Redemptionusersymbol.png|20px]] Talk 23:43, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Enough. Wookieepedia isn't a place for arguing whether or not Revan should or shouldn't be male. He simply is. Case closed. - Sikon 08:33, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Possible Soresu user?
I've been looking into Revan's lightsaber style and I have a good speculation. It seems like he is utilizing Soresu when he is confronted on his flagship. Here's a comparison between him and Obi-Wan, a utilizer of Soresu which proves my point.Darth Shadow3000 00:03, 24 December 2006 (UTC)




 * It doesn't prove your point. For one, Revan's lightsaber is at head level, meaning that his legs could easily be taken out for beneath him. Obi-Wan's on the otherhand is in the centre of his body, meaning he has a higher defence-arc. It is possible that Revan knew some aspects of Soresu, but i doubt he trained in it especially. [[Image:DarthAbeonisSig2.gif|Jasca Ducato]] Sith Council Sith Campaign 16:31, 24 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I dont know about lightsaber forms, but that posture reminds me of palpatine. Could it be juyo? - 201.222.237.38 16:25, 7 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I think you have a fascinating point with the resemblance between revan and Palpatine However in a vision given to the exile he is using two blades as well as in many concepts, also in the first picture below he is holding two lightsabers so Have to say the Nima/Jar'Kia stance is quite promising--Revanreborne 21:04, 5 February 2007 (UTC)


 * There are extreme Similaritys Between Revens' Style and Juyo. The Reven Picture reminds me of the stance Luke has Just before he almost kills Vader on the Second Death star By Hk-47


 * Stop, this please. There is absolutely no canonical information whatsoever regarding what forms KOTOR characters used, save for the three TSL Masters. - Sikon 17:32, 11 February 2007 (UTC)


 * So who cares its kinda fun to sit here and think about what stance revan used or any other characters its just entertaining--Revanreborne 20:21, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I care, and so would most other users. This wikia is not a general forum, it is for conversation about the article in question, not the subject of the article. [[Image:DarthAbeonisSig2.gif|Jasca Ducato]] Sith Council Sith Campaign 21:31, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
 * And I'm with Jasca on that. Speculation, specially if based on some canonic source, has place here, but not specualation for speculation's sake -- Skippy Farlstendoiro 08:41, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Recent mask edits
Compare the final image with the other two. Divided into four areas&mdash;center, top, left, and right&mdash;with strange emblems (writings?) on each. No T visor at all, much less a glowing one. In fact, there doesn't even appear to be any opening for the user's eyes. All this considered, I don't think we have to be idiots to presume that the Shadows and Light mask more closely resembles Revan's trademark than the game-available alternative. If the folk in charge want to retcon it as Uthar's Sith mask to make it aesthetically compatibble with the game, then that's their business. I personally think it was a mistake of the game designers to not make the mask part of Revan's robes (ala the Sith Armor, Sand People Clothing, and Mandalorian Assault Armor), but that's my business. -BaronGrackle 20:47, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Arkanian Binders (or Force Binders - both use same model) was the mask I was referring to. Exactly like what was seen in Shadows and Light (just tinted blue). -- Redemption [[Image:Redemptionusersymbol.png|25px]] Talk 20:57, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Ah, that does make more sense, and it explains why the comic's image did look vaguely familiar to me. But I don't think any image model for those appears in the original KOTOR...? -BaronGrackle 21:06, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Everything in that panel is possible to be. Only differences are lightsaber hilt and the hooded robe - which are game mechanics. Game couldn't create robes that flow properly like in K2. -- Redemption [[Image:Redemptionusersymbol.png|25px]] Talk 21:19, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
 * BaronGrackle, it's possible to get that yellowed visored mask in the first KoTOR. I remember wearing it on the Star Forge. --  I need a name  ( Complain here ) 22:37, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Is it hidden somewhere? I've looked through every item on this page here, and while it doesn't have images, I think I remember the models for everything listed. -BaronGrackle 04:49, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
 * My bad. It's called a Vacuum mask. How odd that the player could only obtain it if the PC chooses the Dark Side...game mechanic or conflicting sources? -- Redemption [[Image:Redemptionusersymbol.png|25px]] Talk 20:45, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

NPOV
This article seems to assume that the Jedi Council outright removed Revan's previous memories, rather than simply inserting new ones into a dead mind. Bastila says that Revan's mind was destroyed shortly after the Revelation scene, and as such this would indicate that they simply inserted new things into a nearly blank slate. Also, terms like brainwashing are highly charged and POV, and we don't use such charged terms on articles like Galactic Empire, slavery, Palpatine, Anakin Skywalker, or even Rancor. Therefore, I'm slapping the NPOV tag on this until it is edited for a more objective analysis of the subjects life. Lord Patrick 22:54, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
 * There. I can find no more reference to brain washing, or to the Council's intentional mind-wiping. Let me know if you see anything else. Maclimes Zero''' (talk) [[Image:Infinite_Empire.png|10px]] 23:04, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

quotes
there should be a wiki quotes section there was alot of talk about his skill and how much poeple respected him.

Done Lord Patrick 21:57, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Good job, Patrick. :) -- Yoshi  626 [[Image:Yoshiegg.jpg|20px]] 06:43, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

force talents
I thjink we should put together section that talks about how strong he was I know there is little info but ther eise some. I have been reading about revan past and have played both games and we could have a section mybe not a long one but we could have one. So anyone who know anything of revans force powers please add it here.74.138.90.121 22:37, 13 January 2007 (UTC)tonyman1989
 * It wouldn't work. Thanks to game mechanics there are just too many varibles for us to consider. It's best just leaving the section out entirely because it would spark an endless debate. [[Image:DarthAbeonisSig2.gif|Jasca Ducato]] Sith Council Sith Campaign 08:57, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

But we do have some confirmed force talents74.138.90.121 23:17, 15 January 2007 (UTC)tonyman1989
 * Not really. Only real powers we have are the ones he would use in the vision in the tomb and that wouldn't be considered all that accurate since it was a vision. Though here is what he is capable of throwing at the player if it's any consolation:


 * Throw Lightsaber
 * Mind Trick (can't use it on player but oh well)
 * Force Speed
 * Life Drain
 * Destroy Droid
 * Force Shield (protect from all Force attacks)
 * Force Push
 * Heal
 * Force Lightening
 * Energy Resistence (protect from all basic attacks)

-- Redemption  Talk 23:45, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Don't forget Revan could also use Force Choke, it's the only actual Force power we see pre-amnesia Revan use when Bastila's strike team confronted him. Master Kavar 04:06, 16 January 2007 (UTC)


 * If we say anything about that, though, it would have to be said that he once knew Force Choke. After his amnesia, he forgot absolutely every Force power and had to learn them all over again.Darth Ceratis 23:58, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Don't most Jedi come with a bunch of "generic" Force Powers anyway? Unless it's a really notable one like Battle Meditation I don't think they deserve to be mentioned Lalala la 00:10, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, of course, in KOTOR II even Battle Meditation somehow becomes average. In your game it is possible for the Exile, Kreia, Visas, Atton, Mira, Bao-Dur, the Disciple, and the Handmaiden (if male) to all become absolute masters of Battle Meditation. So much for how hard the first game worked to hype it up. ::le sigh:: -BaronGrackle 16:33, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Not exactly. Bastilas battle meditation rallied entire fleets. As far as we know, Exile and her party could only rally allies in a certain area. -- Redemption [[Image:Redemptionusersymbol.png|20px]] Talk 22:34, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

"Comparison with Anakin Skywalker"
This HAS to go. Blatant original research. "Many have noticed..." - who are those "many"? Where are the sources? - Sikon 18:42, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I've changed it to "Comparisons have been made between...". I think some of the section is a bit silly; their attire as dark lords isn't really that similar at all, but the rest is perfectly fine. It was a lot worse at one point.(Ulicus 15:23, 21 January 2007 (UTC))

"As for his powers, he was perhaps the closest stated in the current canon (Legacy of the Force) as the perfect practitioner of both Jedi/Sith powers, who wasn't truly influenced by the dark or light powers. If the hypothesis of his character to be a lesser evil so he can save the Republic from a bigger threat is true, he would be somewhere in between Jacen Solo and Anakin Skywalker steps of becoming the idealistic Sith user who was not influenced by greed or the one-sided judgment from the light side."

The above paragraph betrays the misunderstanding that the Jedi and the Sith use a different force instead of merely using it in a different manner; this is the path to the dark side. The "one-sided judgment" exists on both sides of the force, but while Jedi teach you can only be good if you use the force for good, the Sith teaches that you can be good while employing the force in evil ways. Maybe Anakin and Revan, and most who are seduced by the dark side of the force, once wanted to accomplish honorable goals, but "once you start down the dark path forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will." (Jedi Master Yoda)
 * I agree that the above statement needs to go, it's blatantly biased and POV (the ideal Sith? Jedi are one sided? According to whom?), it's not for the same reasons you stated. The Force is devided into Light and Dark, they are different Forces. What you're describing is the Pontium which has already been stated as false. Master Kavar 03:03, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Reverted. What a load of drivel. (Ulicus 15:39, 8 February 2007 (UTC))

Interesting that it (the Force) is typically referred to as the Dark Side or Light Side of "THE FORCE" ("THE" indicating ONE), instead of "the Dark Force" and "the Light Force." If you take a coin, it has two distinct sides, but it is still only one coin. Thus, many are seduced when they feel that in order to understand the Force, they must become familiar with both sides of the one coin.
 * Point? The fact is that, while there ARE comparisons to be made with Jacen Solo and Revan (namely their love of knowledge and desire to give the galaxy order through the Sith teachings), the stuff written in the article was fanon and speculation and has no place on The Wook. Sorry. (Ulicus 19:26, 9 February 2007 (UTC))

Point taken.

The beginning of the article.
I think the beginning of the article is quite dull,and doesn't resemble Revans true power.He was not just a jedi knight that turned to the dark side during Mandalorian Wars,but he was the strongest force user of his time,and maybe in the whole Star Wars history.I think it must be complitely changed.
 * Ugh. This is an encyclopedia, not a gusher's fan site. We're meant to be objective here, and there's no canonical evidence to suggest Revan is the most powerful Force user ever. The intro's fine as it is - \\Captain Kwenn// &mdash; Ahoy! 19:08, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Omg,he may not be the strongest in the whole history,but he was at his time.If it is encyclopedia,why then Anakins page begins with "Anakin Skywalker was a legendary male Human Jedi Knight in the waning days of the Jedi Order who was believed to be the Chosen One.Bla Bal Bal."I think it is not fair,cos Revan just like Anakin was "The Chosen One" of his era!
 * No, it's different. Anakin fulfilled the "Chosen One" prophecy, thus earning him the title of "Chosen One". 22:16, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Kwenn is right. I'd go as far to say that Anakin shouldn't be referred to as a "legendary" Jedi Knight on his page either, as it's completely POV. Besides, Revan's great aptitude for the Force is already covered in the "Comparison with Anakin Skywalker" section and his other abilities are gone over in the talents section. Revan was the most naturally gifted Force pracitioner of his era - not of all time - and he may not have been the most powerful of his era. Both the Exile and Nihilus, with their karked up natures, are challengers for this title. (Ulicus 14:30, 21 January 2007 (UTC))
 * What is the point of this? We have no "power scale" chart for Force users. So DR had a brilliant mind and was incredibly charismatic. Hurrah for him. Is it not enough that Revan was one of the more "unique" Jedi in Star Wars? Karohalva 06:46, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Nihilus was not the most powerful of his era considering the fact that all he caused was pure destruction sitting on his Star Wars version of the Flying Dutchman; he was clearly a for-the-game manifestation with no significant history before him or legacy. And the Exile? I mean c'mon, she played a key role in the Mandalorian Wars and shortly after but she is way out of Revan's league - definitely not worthy of the title. Moreover, if Revan was clearly stated as being the most powerful Force user then someone should post the reference and it should be added in the article (when I played the KOTOR games and from my general experience with the old republic era I think Revan was at least supposed to be the strongest in the Force if not impied to be). However, if the description "legendary" is not removed from the Skywalker/Vader article then Revan should also get it, since their accomplishments and power are alike; "Comparison with Anakin Skywalker" is just not enough.
 * Nihilus' history has no bearing on whether or not he was powerful. In terms of raw displayed power, he surpassed Revan (and ever other documented Sith) significantly. By the end of KotOR II, the Exile is declared by several characters to be Revan's equal - if not superior, due to her strange way of accessing the Force. I have no doubt that Revan is the most *naturally* gifted Force sensitive of his era, but both Nihilus and the Exile are unnatural in the way they access the Force. I do, however, agree that if "legendary" is not removed from the Anakin Skywalker article, then it should be added to Revan's (and Malak's). (Ulicus 15:43, 8 February 2007 (UTC))
 * Whether or not a Jedi/Sith is a "more powerful" Force user is really not important. It's how someone makes use of their potential that really shows their value and worth. For example, think of Obi-Wan Kenobi. Although moderately powerful (not a Yoda or Anakin), he has more impact upon the fate of the galaxy with the exception of few others. Revan's worth likewise isn't merely the result of being a powerful Force user. His machinations (for good or ill) shaped the Galaxy for millennia. Vryce 07:08, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Action Figure
According to the Wilrow Hood article, Revan won the Hasbro action figure poll and will therefore be made an action figure. I couldn't verify this for certain, but if they do make a figure mightn't that shed some light on some of these issues that haven't been resolved? Just a thought.Darth Ceratis 23:53, 22 January 2007 (UTC) There is a much, much greater chance that the figure will simply be "Darth Revan", and be clad in the customary robes with a non-removable mask. I wouldn't get excited. (Ulicus 19:54, 24 January 2007 (UTC))
 * And what issues would that be? -- Redemption [[Image:Redemptionusersymbol.png|20px]] Talk 03:34, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Oh, I don't know. It'll depend on exactly how they make the action figure. Maybe it'll have a removable mask. Might come with a second lightsaber that isn't his Sith one. There's so many not-quite-resolved issues about canon elements of Revan's appearance it just seems likely that something might be addressed.Darth Ceratis 03:47, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Hmm... those are pretty valid points. It could finally show a canon model of Revan's face, and maybe even show an accurate version of his lightsaber, Sith or not. But, until then, it's all conjecture. 03:50, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Chances are that they won't come up with a canon face so don't count on that. -- Redemption [[Image:Redemptionusersymbol.png|20px]] Talk 03:58, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, if they include a removable mask, then they have to make a face. And, since we don't have any canon face pics, that face would be considered canon. Unless I'm mistaken... 04:00, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
 * IF they do. There is no guarantee that they will. I really doubt it since Hasbro is more concerned about satisfying fans with various "play options" rather then staying in what has been declared canon. -- Redemption [[Image:Redemptionusersymbol.png|20px]] Talk 04:27, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I understand your point. I wasn't implying that "OMG their finally going to reveal Revans face OMGOMGOMGOMG!!1!1!" like that, but instead in the form of "Well, we'll see what happens. If they do follow canon and show a face, etc." 05:41, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, I think that, because of the very nature of what Revan is (ie, a customizable character who can be light or dark) then it's likely they would make an action figure that can be either as well, which would involve the ability to remove the mask and to have Jedi and Sith lightsabers.Darth Ceratis 20:23, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
 * You're probably right, but one can still hope. I guess we'll find out in a few months.Darth Ceratis 21:05, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Even if the Revan action figure came with a Jedi lightsaber(s) and a face under the mask, would that really make that version of Revan canon? Master Kavar 00:44, 25 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Weak cannon, but cannon nonetheless. I believe it would be considered cannon unless it ever gets trumped by something bigger.
 * I thought Revan was a person, not a heavy weapon. But jokes aside, I agree with Ulicus. At best, the figure will probably have a switchable lightsaber. Lord Patrick 01:02, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

"Revan never really fell"- canon?
I hate to bring up NPOV again, but where is it stated that Kreia and other's speculations that Revan was trying to "protect" the Galaxy by conquering it become canon? The first source, Kreia, both has a bias towards her favourite student and is about as much a reliable source on morality as Palpatine. The second source, GO-TO, is a droid, and may simply be projecting his own mission upon Revan, in a conspiracy theory-esque way (Indeed, GO-TO is known for his general pompousness and self importance, so I hardly think projecting his thoughts onto that of someone else is beyond him). The third source, Mical, is a Jedi historian with little to no experience of the Jedi Civil War, and is stated even by Kreia to be naieve. The fourth, HK-47, is even less of a reliable source on morality than Kreia, and in any case it's perfectly possible that Darth Revan may have wanted to eliminate those who would disrupt his new Empire.

Carth Onasi, a man who served in both the Mandalorian Wars and as a very experienced soldier in the Jedi Civil War, states that "It's obvious that Malak is a ruthless tyrant who'll crush any one who stands in his way&hellip; just like [Darth] Revan was."

However, admittedly Carth Onasi did not meet Revan during the Wars, but another example of Revan's corruption is the fact that, no matter what face the player picks, Darth Revan always looks evil and deformed in the unmasking cutscene, much like the corrupted (post amnesia) DS Revan or even DS Exile from KOTOR II. Also, Malak, Revan's friend, apprentice, and second in command, states;

"All you ever imagined was an endless fleet rolling on to crush the Republic."

Darth Revan had Jedi captured and horrifically tortured to break them into Sith assassins, via one of his minions, Atton, who was an interrogator for Darth Revan and held strong anti Republic feelings even during KOTOR II. He had many of his own soldiers killed at Malachor simply for not being loyal enough. He choked a Republic officer aboard his flagship.

And lastly, to state the obvious. He. Was. The. Dark. Lord. Of. The. Sith. The. Sith. Master. The. Sidious. Of. His. Day.

EDIT: Also, the general point of KOTOR I was (canon) Revan redeeming himself from his Darth Revan past and stopping the very thing he caused. Not him ending a galaxy saving effort corrupted by his eeevil apprentice. And Darth Revan himself states things to the contrary in DB:POD. Written by his creator, no less.

As there is no canon source confirming the "Revan Never Really Fell" theory, and indeed evidence to the contrary, I think all references stating this as fact should be removed. Lord Patrick 03:48, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
 * All that proves is that nobody really knew what was going on inside Revans little head. Kreia though probably had it best. She knew him better then anyone else after all. -- Redemption [[Image:Redemptionusersymbol.png|20px]] Talk 03:51, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm having trouble finding it in the article. Does it say that Revan never fell or that s those other characters believed that he never fell. An IU point of view is not something that needs to be kept out of articles.-- Lord Oblivion Sith holocron[[Image:Oldsith.png|20px]] 04:02, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

1."Revan soon discovered the Trayus Academy, an ancient relic of the "True Sith". What actually transpired as Revan entered the Academy's halls is unknown—what is certain is that there, Revan discovered the continued existence of the "True Sith", long thought vanished, and the threat that they still presented to the Galaxy. He came to the conclusion that the Republic as it stood was ill-equipped to defend the Galaxy from such a potent enemy and, as such, a new government would need to rise in its place; an empire founded upon the Sith teachings. He would attempt to save the Galaxy through conquest. In that moment, Revan fully abandoned the teachings of the Jedi, adopting the title of Dark Lord of the Sith and becoming Darth Revan. He took Malak, now under the name of Darth Malak, as his Sith apprentice."

2."Revan's campaign, while bloody, was orchestrated to topple the Republic while doing little damage to its underlying industrial infrastructure. Under his leadership, Sith forces bypassed militarily vital planets that would be required for the defense of the Galaxy against the threat of the "True Sith". Revan's plan was to keep the Republic largely intact for the purposes of post-war rebuilding. As such, he could begin his rule with a relatively functional military and economy rather than starting from scratch. Also, had he failed in conquering the Galaxy, the end result would be much the same: a stronger Republic, more capable of defending itself. "


 * The whole "Revan never really fell" thing can be considered flavor lore, an attempt to retroactively apply Revan's redemption to his days as a Sith. For all we know, he was the kriffing Dark Lord of the Sith and started a war against the Republic. His motives are irrelevant. He would be, at best, Chaotic Neutral, if you get me. - Sikon 08:17, 9 February 2007 (UTC)


 * GAH! The article does not, repeat, DOES NOT imply that Revan did not embrace and turn to the dark side.


 * The fact that his original intentions (as heavily, heavily alluded to by Kreia, the Disciple and GO-TO, and further emphasised by Revan's own actions - going off to fight the True Sith) were to protect the galaxy in NO WAY makes him a less evil character. Anakin turned to the dark side because he was obsessed with saving Padme, he ended up destroying her. Revan turned to the dark side because he was obsessed with saving the galaxy from death, he ended up doing a hella lot more harm to it than good. It is stated numerous times in KotOR II that Revan waged war with an intent to keep the Republic's underlying infrastructure intact so that he could just sweep his new Empire into all the vacant positions and then stop relying on the Star Forge (which ends up destroying those who use it).


 * Quoting Malak is irrevelant. Malak, though powerful in his own right, knew jack-all about Revan's plans and motives. He probably didn't even know about the Sith teachings on Malachor V.


 * Likewise, the two paragraphs you've quoted do nothing to imply that Revan wasn't a dark sider - you are aware that Palpatine thought that *he* was 'saving' the galaxy too right? And Jacen? Same thing happening there. The fact that Revan left the underlying infrastructure intact does nothing to detract from his evil nature at this point - Palpatine left the underlying infrastructure of the Republic intact if I recall.


 * I apologise for the rant, but as someone else who firmly believes in the evil of Darth Revan, having someone claim that an article that I've contributed heavily to supports the idea that Revan *wasn't* a ruthless tyrant really kinda bugs me... you're reading stuff that isn't there. Certainly, we make a point of not using the word "fall" - but only because "fall" is the incorrect terminology in Revan's case - he turned. Atris was a fall, Revan was a turn. Kreia's argument is, at the end of the day, about semantics - she never, NEVER claims that he didn't embrace the dark side.(Ulicus 19:23, 9 February 2007 (UTC))


 * Why wouldn't Revan tell his closest friend and second in command about his plans? I know that if I was trying to enact some crazy, deluded plan to save the Galaxy by conquering it in a specific way to place it under the Third Rei.. sorry, Sith Empire to save Germa.. the Galaxy from economic depr.. the True Sith or kill trillions of soldiers in order to strengthen the Republic, I'd tell my closest associates. The fact that Malak favoured more crushing tactics may simply indicate he thought that the Republic should be outright taken over, rather than either carefully taken over or made stronger by having trillions of its fighting soldiers killed. Lord Patrick 22:43, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Revan was a Dark Lord of the Sith by the time he found out about the Star Forge - he's already dark sided and all bets are off when it comes to friendship. We find out in KotOR II that Revan is aware of what the Star Forge does to those that draw on its power directly -  Malak, since he's doing exactly that, clearly doesn't, and thus assumes that Revan didn't know since Revan wasn't using it in such a way. The whys of why Revan didn't tell Malak everything are up in the air, but the fact is that he didn't. Probably because he didn't figure he'd be dying any time soon...


 * By the way, I completely agree with you that Revan's plan was crazy and deluded - but that's what the dark side does to you. It doesn't stop it from *being* his plan however :D I mean, really, what was he thinking: "I'll protect the galaxy from the True Sith by installing a rule by the Sith"? Craziness, and futher evidence that he was heavily corrupted by the dark side.(Ulicus 23:08, 9 February 2007 (UTC))


 * When Revan became Darth Revan and when he found the first Star Map is unknown, and as such we don't know if he had became DR or even fell at that point. Indeed, it is both possible that he had already fallen or that Dantooine was a case of over curiosity (thirst for knowledge, anybody?) and subsequent corruption. Lord Patrick 10:17, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

It is heavily implied that Revan was already the Dark Lord by the end of the Mandalorian Wars - Immediately, not several weeks, after the battle of Malachor, the Sith teachings begin sweeping through the rank and file of his forces. The implication is that he's been preparing to unleash them upon his forces for some time. Likewise, the entire point of the battle of Malachor V was to kill off all those who wouldn't embrace his Sith ways and a great portion of the entire war, as Kreia indicated, was a war of conversion - with Revan getting people to place him above both the Republic and the Jedi Order.

That said, it doesn't even matter *when* Revan became the Sith Lord or found the Dantooine Star Map, as we know for fact which *order* they occured in. We can say with more or less certainty that Revan was already the Dark Lord in actions if not in name by the time he found Dantooine. In KotOR II we learn that he discovered the location of Korriban from Malachor, which means that he must have studied the Sith knowledge on Malachor before he found the Star Map on Dantooine (which also has the location of Korriban).

Have a little faith :), the article isn't perfect, but it has been through a ridiculous number of revisions and has been helped put together by rigourously combing through pretty much every sound file from both games.

Besides, you've moved on completely from your original points, which were that this article implies that Revan didn't turn to the dark side (though you used the 'fall' terminology, which is fair enough) and wasn't ruthless or tyrannical. Which it doesn't.

Moving on from the semantics of fell/turn (lets just say they're the same for now), the title of this subsection you've created is, "Revan never really fell canon?" The article doesn't not say this, nor does it imply it for the majority - it's just something you're incorrectly inferred from it. (Ulicus 12:25, 10 February 2007 (UTC))

It implies it due to the fact it mentions as fact the "Revan conquered the Republic to save it from the "True Sith"" theory. As for heavily alluded too, none of these are infallible sources. GO-TO never even met Revan, and was born several years after the Jedi Civil War was over. Kreia was essentialy a cross with Vergere and a female Sidious, and probably is in denial that her own teachings caused Revan to fall. Mical is a naieve historian with little experience with the man or his and Malak's war. These people are not infallible sources, and never has their speculations been declared canon in any licensed work IIRC. Lord Patrick 20:38, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I have already countered every single one of those points. Why are you forcing me to repeat myself? And, yet again, you have not acknowledged that Revan himself - through his actions - supports that there is a "threat beyond the Galaxy", or did you not notice that he wasn't present for KotOR 2?


 * The "Revan conquered the Republic to save the galaxy from the True Sith" theory does not imply that Revan didn't turn to the dark side. I have already explained why. Have you never heard the saying; "The road to hell is paved with good intentions"? Because, by your current reasoning, it appears not.


 * Allow me to also say that challenging the canonocity of the "True Sith Defence" theory is an entirely different thing from telling us that this article implies that Revan never turned to the dark side. Ok? It is completely separate. They have no bearing on each other, because it doesn't matter why Revan turned to the dark side - since canonically he did turn to the dark side. Not a single person has ever argued different. Not even Kreia.


 * I reiterate: Kreia was arguing semantics and stating her *belief*. She argued that Revan didn't fall, not that Revan didn't turn. A fall is an accident; Atris fell. A turn is deliberate; Anakin Skywalker turned (though he had been falling). Both involve giving into the dark side, so most don't make a distinction - but that doesn't stop there from being a distinction. No character, in the entirety of KotOR 2, claims that Revan wasn't darksided. Not a single one. And, lets not forget that Kreia is herself a Sith Lord and was probably wrong in her belief that Revan turned "out of neccessity". He could have warned the Republic, he could have done all sorts of things - the fact that he chose the Sith teachings to "save the Galaxy" proves that he was a twisted individual by that point - it does not challenge it.


 * One of the most well documented things about the dark side is that it makes those who give in to it delusional. They think they're bringing peace, or that they're good, or that they're justified in their actions - but they never are. Darth Revan was a darksider. The article does nothing to imply otherwise - all it does is discuss his possible motivations for going dark.


 * Now, on to the "True Sith defence" theory. It is supported by Kreia, Mical and GO-TO in KotOR 2 and also by Revan himself - why would he disappear to battle a non-existant threat? Canderous also supports the notion that the True Sith exist, in KotOR I and cut dialog from KotOR 2. Are the first three wholly reiable sources? Of course not. What source is? But they're far more reliable than you're making them out to be.


 * Mical and GO-TO (I'm more inclined to trust the findings of the latter since he is a supercomputer) discover, from a lot of study of his strategies as well as the course of the Jedi Civil War, that Revan's attacks were patterned in such a way to leave a lot of the Republic's underlying infrastructure intact (Sidious did exactly the same thing politically. Would you say that implied that he wasn't evil?) They didn't destroy key industrial, weapon/ship producing planets, they captured them. This is because Revan is fully aware of what happens to those who draw upon the Star Forge's power too heavily (as we are told by Bastila in a holocron if we say Revan was evil) and knows he cannot rely on it forever. They theorise that he was preparing for a larger war, against an even greater threat. Otherwise he WOULD have employed far more brutal tactics.


 * Kreia and Revan (as supported by his actions and Canderous' dialog) believe that there IS a greater threat and that they know what it is. The True Sith. Revan has studied on Malachor V perhaps more extensively than anyone. If the True Sith were still around, he would know. Combine this with the strategies Darth Revan employed in the JCW and, voila, you have an explanation.


 * Of course, the only problem you seem to have with the "True Sith Defence" isn't that it doesn't make sense (which it makes a hella lot of) but that it supposedly means that Revan wasn't an evil Sith Lord in his own right... which is just wrong. Sure, he didn't think of himself as evil, but neither did Palpatine or Jacen Solo.(Ulicus 20:50, 22 February 2007 (UTC))

Revan and Sion
Is Sion more powerful then Revan, or was just hoping he was. Because he went down pretty easy. I didn't even break his will the first time and still won. No of course not. Sion was a disgrace to all sith lords. Unlike you I broke his will.I use fear on him and it work! On a sith lord. He is nowhere near Revan.
 * This is not a forum. Take this elsewhere. -- Redemption [[Image:Redemptionusersymbol.png|20px]] Talk 22:45, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Mechanic Section
''It should be noted, however, that despite these claims by the HK-47 unit encountered in KotOR, there was already a model of Hunter-Killers created in the galaxy, as supported by two Sith officers discussing finding HK-47 once the party is captured by the Leviathan. This heavily suggests that while Revan may have designed HK-47's mind-set and possible additions to the basic model, that he was not the creator of the Hunter-Killer series themselves.''

Why should it be noted? The first paragraph doesn't claim that Revan invented the HK series of models, nor does it infer it. It simply states that he built HK-47, which is - as far as we know - true. (Ulicus 17:23, 13 February 2007 (UTC))
 * Oh, sorry, I just remembered why it might be noted, as HK-47 claimed to be "unique" - until the HK-50s and 51s came along. I'll just rejig it a bit to mesh a bit better. (Ulicus 17:26, 13 February 2007 (UTC))
 * Ok, it's not excellent, but it has been Wookified now. The reference to "KotOR" has been removed, as this isn't a behind the scenes section. Since we don't know whether or not the Sith officer discussion is canon either (you don't have to choose to have HK-47 rescue you), the reference to it has been removed as well. I've made note of HK-24 as proof of a HK-47 precursor instead... even so, I recall GO-TO referring to HK-47 as "the original", or something... so I might make a note of that when I find the relevant dialog. Of course, he ISN'T the original, but it seems notable that other characters think he is. (Ulicus 17:37, 13 February 2007 (UTC))
 * Nope, can't find it... I guess I imagined it. It seems to me that the HK-50s were based off HK-47s model specifically though, so they may have made use of whatever modifications/extras that Revan put into his own take on the HK-series... who knows? That's me done.(Ulicus 17:40, 13 February 2007 (UTC))

Revan vs Darth Revan, round infinity
I was thinking about this, and I'm starting to think this page might work better as "Darth Revan" (contrary to one of my previous posts). Yes it's true that Revan abandoned the Darth title when he went back to the light side, but he also abandoned the name Revan altogether. You have multiple instances of the light-side player going "I'm not Revan anymore, I'm not Revan anymore". Therefore, the guy's name isn't Revan, but whatever character name you gave him. As the character names are variable and non-canon, we're forced to fall back to to his previous name, Darth Revan. Furthermore, having it as Darth Revan somewhat drives home the point that he was best known as the Sith Lord, rather than the Jedi, especially as that wass the most distinguishing aspect of his life. - Lalala la 03:56, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Not exactly. He is last addressed as Revan (and he doesn't stop him either) as "Revan, the prodigal knight." by Vandar. By that point, it can be assumed that Revan accepted that he is Revan - a redeemed Revan. -- Redemption [[Image:Redemptionusersymbol.png|20px]] Talk 04:01, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Indeedy. The fact the NEC, Vandar, everyone who knew him in KOTOR II, and his own actions in going to the Outer Rim kind of show he was referred to as Revan and accepted it, which seems a lot more Jedi-like (accepting one's mistakes) than trying to brush it off and deny they are the same person. Lord Patrick 05:51, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree with Redemption and Patrick. It's also important to note that a lot of (if not all) Revan's memories eventually returned, which could lead to his acceptance of the name once again. He only denied being Revan at all when "Revan" was just another word for "Evil Revan", and when he didn't remember his previous existance.(Ulicus 20:52, 22 February 2007 (UTC))
 * Revan was the name he was last known by, so it stays at Revan. [[Image:DarthAbeonisSig2.gif|Jasca Ducato]] Sith Council Sith Campaign 21:34, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Rino Romano fan mod
What is the source for this? Also, how could you have him being heard with R.R.'s voice, unless they somehow tracked down the man and got him to record thousands of voice lines? Or is it an imitation? Also, is it really notable? Lord Patrick 00:37, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Unless I'm mistaken, all that's been said is that Rino Romano provides the lines for Revan that are voiced. For example:
 * "Yes?", "What?", "I'm here", "Not a problem", "Urgh. Poison", "Now that must have hurt" - etc. Personally I hated his take on "Revan", so I deleted the sound files. I much preferred Obsidian's "Mute Route".(Ulicus 01:23, 24 February 2007 (UTC))
 * Uh, ok *embarrassed* I just read the new addition to the article... sorry. My bad. Yeah, that seems really strange... and fake. Weirdness. I'd support its deletion unless someone can actually prove it's real.(Ulicus 01:24, 24 February 2007 (UTC))

Brian Ching Pic
The Brian Ching pic, though awesome, is fanart and is therefore not actually allowed on the page... now, I'm all for it staying... but if it does, isn't there somewhere better it can go? It looks a bit iffy in its current position. At least at my resolution. (Ulicus 20:14, 27 February 2007 (UTC))
 * It's been deleted (like it has been several times). --Imp 20:25, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
 * How is it fan art? Brian Ching is an official artist, he's used in various comics. Is it because it's not used in a canonical document (such as a comic)? [[Image:DarthAb.gif|Jasca Ducato]] Sith Council Sith Campaign 20:30, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah Jasca, you hit the nail on the head. Until it appears in a canonical source it's fan art, sadly. (Ulicus 21:35, 27 February 2007 (UTC))

Pruning
I am pruning several sections of the article. Lets not revert until we see what the inquisition thinks first aye? (Ulicus 10:19, 5 March 2007 (UTC))
 * Stuff that I've been over


 * Introduction
 * Early Life
 * Jedi training
 * Mandalorian Wars
 * Discovery of the Star Forge
 * Behind the Scenes (still plenty of room for improvement)

I'll probably do some work on the Jedi Civil War, KotOR and Into the Unknown sections later today.(Ulicus 05:21, 7 March 2007 (UTC))
 * Ok, I ended up adding a new section: "The Star Forge", which is basically the beginning of the old Jedi Civil War stuff expanded. I also added a couple of new pictures, though their sizing/placement probably isn't perfect. I'm working in a pretty high resolution, so if they're messing anything up in the lower resis, let me know. (Ulicus 14:55, 7 March 2007 (UTC))

Introduction
I rewrote the intro... how's it look?  Sarendipity  ( Talk to me ) 06:42, 6 March 2007 (UTC) Right, here's the 'blend' - it's pretty much the bastard offspring of both intros and I've tried to do them justice:
 * Hmmm. Honestly? It's not bad but Sentry's intro wasn't bad to begin with, seemed to possess more of an encyclopaedic tone and had been revised several times already. I don't think it needed rewriting really, though there were a couple of super long sentences in there. That said, let's leave it for now and see what others make of it.(Ulicus 08:28, 6 March 2007 (UTC))
 * Ok, so no-one's made any comments at all :S. Well, my stance is that it should be reverted. The previous introduction wasn't perfect (especially since, having checked over it, it isn't actually as I remember and there's a lot of stuff that interrupts the flow) but I think it was better than the new one. There are things wrong with the article, but nothing in the main stuff (that is, the non-BTS stuff) needs to be completely rewritten. Touched up, sure. Flowery language toned down in some cases? I guess. But a complete rewrite seems unneccessary. Sorry.(Ulicus 17:20, 6 March 2007 (UTC))
 * I know it wasn't specifically called for by the Inquisitorius, but I saw a few things wrong with it and set about fixing it. The intention wasn't originally to completely rewrite it, but once I began fixing things it looked less and less like the original. There are still some elements of other people's work in there. It's the nature of a wiki; nothing on a page is ever truly "done," as it can always be improved on. That's true of my rewrite as well, as I've seen a few minor corrections to it so far. I posted on this talk page in the hope of getting feedback to make it better. It's the most important part of the article in that it should be able to accurately describe Revan to someone who doesn't know who he was at all. I didn't feel that the previous version accurately portrayed the ambiguities in his story, and I also wanted to separate the unique phases of his life a little more. Obviously I'd like to see the new one stick, but if you do go back to the other one, don't just revert and leave it as it was, please.  Sarendipity  ( Talk to me ) 19:31, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Though I think the previous intro was fine in summing up what Revan did, which is all it's there to do, I wouldn't intend on doing a straight revert. I think I might experiment in blending the two together - then post on the discussion page for criticism - as you're right on the ambigious front, it's just that the previous one seemed more succint (I'm not certain if it *actually* was or not, but that's the impression I get). I disagree, however, in your analysis that nothing on a page can ever be truly "done". There simply must reach a point where something can't be improved anymore. I'm not saying that the previous intro was "done", or couldn't be improved at all (far from it), just arguing a general point :P (Ulicus 04:05, 7 March 2007 (UTC))

Rip apart at your leisure :) (Ulicus 04:42, 7 March 2007 (UTC))
 * Very nice, good work :)  Sarendipity  ( Talk to me ) 04:56, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, in that case it's in... uh, until any hugely glaring errors are pointed out. (Ulicus 05:17, 7 March 2007 (UTC))

Now Don't Anyone Lash Out At Me For Not Knowing This
But where exactly is it stated that Revan was Darth Revan's real name? Xepeyon 20:09, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, it is not explicitly stated that it is his real name, but, because it's the only canonical name given, it's used. 20:12, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Where exactly does it say in the article that Revan was his real name? :P It says that Revan and Malak "used the names they were already known by rather than new Sith monkiers". "Revan" could have been an alias he adopted at a very young age for all we know - but it was the name he was known by throughout the Mandalorian Wars for certain. It's also what all the masters called him. (Ulicus 20:27, 7 March 2007 (UTC))
 * oh, sorry. But I could have sworn that the article, at least at one time, said that Revan was his real name...Xepeyon 20:39, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Erm, why would he have taken an alias when he was being trained as a Jedi? Wouldn't he just use his real name? [[Image:DarthAb.gif|Jasca Ducato]] Sith Council Sith Campaign 21:09, 7 March 2007 (UTC)