Talk:Mandalorian Wars

Notable figures
Why are the Jedi Masters (Zhar Lestin, Vrook Lamar etc.) listed as "Notable figures"? They didn't participate in the Wars, moreover, they restrained other Jedi from doing so. - Sikon [ Talk ] 04:52, 31 Oct 2005 (UTC)

I agree, seeing as they did try to restrain many from the war, but then again, that is why they are mentioned. Aside from being the Jedi masters of the era, they played a big role in keeping many Jedi sheltered from the war and it's call. If not for them, who knows how many Jedi would have followed Revan and returned to control the Republic. If not for Zhar Lestin, Vrook Lamar, etc... Revan and Malak would have succeeded. Tysis 22:29, 01 January 2007 (UTC)

3965 BBY?
Is it? Master Dorak (in 3956 BBY) said that the Mandalorians invaded the Republic seven years previously. Or am I mistaken? (195.92.168.175 15:55, 27 January 2006 (UTC))
 * You're right. The Mandalorian Wars started in 3963 NOT 3965 BBY according to Dorak. This article and the timeline have to be corrected. In fact, the timeline is doubly wrong because Dorak said that the Mandalorians started invading worlds outside the Republic 20 years ago (ie. 20 years before 3956) which means the true date for that event would be 3976 NOT 3983 BBY.--Sentry 05:49, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Thought so. That said, in the Knights of the Old Republic comic series, beginning in 3964 BBY, the Mandalorian Wars are already underway. *Groan* (Ulicus 12:56, 6 March 2006 (UTC))
 * Really? Its actually mentioned that the war had started? Where did the author get his info? Even Chronicles of the Old Republic has the date set properly...--Sentry 05:48, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Opening stuff: The events of this story take place approximately 3,964 years before the Battle of Yavin and also "It is a time of upheaval for he galaxy.... the Mandalorian Wars have strained the OLD REPUBLIC's resources to the breaking point." Seems pretty stupid to me... I'm also getting a rather nasty feeling from interviews that the writer thinks that romantic relationships are A-Ok for Jedi in this era... when it's clear that it's after the Great Sith War that the "don't love" rule gets brought in. Gah!(Ulicus 21:37, 7 March 2006 (UTC))

References:

"I will begin 40 years ago with the war of Exar Kun."

- Dorak

"Twenty years ago the Mandalorians, aware the Republic was in a weakened state, began conquering small worlds on the Outer Rim. They were careful to choose only planets outside the Republic's jurisdiction."

- Dorak

"The Mandalorians stockpiled resources from their conquered worlds, preparing for a massive assault. Seven years ago they launched a simultaneous attack in three seperate sectors of Republic space"

- Dorak

--Sentry 05:48, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
 * KOTOR I's depictions of the Mandalorian Wars have already been trashed by KOTOR II, which completely changed the opening of the war. Instead of the war beginning with an invasion of three sectors of Republic space in the Outer Rim, it began with an attack on a single world in the Inner Rim. Kuralyov 03:23, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Do you have quotes for that? I know for a fact that Canderous repeats the same old invasion through three adjacent quadrants bit during converstions in the sequel... Unless you are speaking about Onderon, which I believe was the very first world attacked before the general invasion began...--Sentry 03:37, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
 * The 'different openings' are reconcilable, it just takes a bit of thought. I'll agree that the KotOR 2 staff did not *always* seem to do their homework in regard to the first game very well.


 * Then again, the KotOR 1 staff didn't pay attention to a lot of the EU (which I thought was one of the things that made KotOR 1 so good...), except for the occasional name drop, whereas KotOR 2 did. So I guess it balances out, though it's still pretty frustrating. (Ulicus 00:11, 20 May 2006 (UTC))


 * That made me sound like I didn't like the job Obsidian did on the game at all. Overall, I did, the stuff I touch on above doesn't really bother me that much. If only LucasArts hadn't rushed it out of the door!(195.92.168.168 01:31, 28 May 2006 (UTC))

Expansion and cleanup
I am planning to do some major work on this article (much like the major rewrite I did for the Jedi Civil War months ago) in the next few weeks, but I thought I should start a discussion about some of the many controversial issues involved before I begin.

The most difficult problem in this article is the dating. As I have established above, the correct date for the beginning of the Mandalorian Wars is 3,963 BBY according to both KOTOR and the Chronicles of the Old Republic. Of course, that date got blasted to hell by the new comic book series which takes place in 3964. Sooo, we have got to come to some sort of consensus about when the wars began. Contributors keep adding random dates such as 3,966 and 3,965, but they are obviously pure conjecture and, therefore, not terribly encyclopedic. At the moment, the article states that the Wars took place during the entire period from 3,976 to 3,960 BBY. I don't necessarily have a problem with that since it solves a lot of issues, but it isn't really supported by any evidence whatsoever... Thoughts?--Sentry 03:20, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
 * From what i have concluded. The Jedi got involved in 3,963 BBY thus my orignal arguments for that date. I then agreed that the Mandalorians may well have invaded in 3,966-3,965 BBY (who said they cant invade over the New Year period), it is entirely possible that the dating for 3,976 BBY could well have been when the Mandalorians started conquering the Outer rim worlds before the invaded the Republic. Jasca Ducato 08:12, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Errors in battle articles
I have done an aweful lot of research lately for this article and I have found some issues with the battle articles:


 * The problem with the Battle of Serreco is that its position in the timeline is incorrect. Atton Rand states that the Exile took part in that battle, so it must have occured after the Battle of Cathar.--Sentry 20:46, 19 May 2006 (UTC)


 * The problem with the Battle of Iridonia is that, to my knowledge, it never happened. According to Bao Dur, the mandalorians conquered Iridonian colonies on the outer rim. That is why he and other Zabraks joined the war... Unless this information is contradicted by the NEC (I only own the old version and I can't recall), the entire battle is fanon.--Sentry 20:46, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Replaced with Attacks on the Zabrak Colonies. &mdash;Silly Dan (talk) 23:13, 21 July 2006 (UTC)


 * The problem with the Second Battle of Althir is that its position in the timeline is incorrect. According to the NEC, the battle was one of the very last of the war and since it took place outside the Republic's borders, I would place it directly before the Battle of Malachor V.--Sentry 20:46, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Yet, strangely, their articles are dated quite confidently (probably an artifact of those darn succession boxes). Either those entirely conjectural dates should be removed or a fanon warning should be placed in their 'Behind the scenes' sections...--Sentry 20:46, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
 * And lastly, we have to figure out what to do with the dates for several of the battles. None of the battles listed below are explicitly dated in any source and most of them are not described well enough to implicitly date them:
 * Battle of Serroco
 * Battle of Cathar
 * First Battle of Taris
 * Battle of Dagary Minor
 * Battle of Eres III
 * Battle of Duro
 * You know, the problems with the starting dates for the war could be solved pretty easily if we just took Dorak to be rounding down/up/whatever to 40 when he said "40 years ago", as opposed to specifically meaning "forty years ago". I'd be quite happy saying, "Oh it happened a decade ago" to refer to things that actually happened nine, eleven or twelve years ago. It would also fix the errors with the KotOR comics being set during 3964, yet the Mandalorians having already invaded the Republic. What do people think? There aren't ever any references to the actual *years* in the game beyond "four thousand years before the Galactic Empire". (Ulicus 17:43, 22 May 2006 (UTC))
 * Yes, except that most everything is precisely dated in the Chronicles based on Dorak's words that I quoted above and, like it or not, the chronicles are an official source.--Sentry 20:08, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Oh, don't worry, I'm not seriously suggesting that we start changing the article and dates about yet, because "forty years ago" as Dorak said IS (so far) the canon, and so 3956 BBY IS the canon 'year' for KotoR. Considering the comics however - which are much more official than the crap in the Chronicles, which read like they were written by a monkey on crack who knew nothing about the Expanded Universe - I think we're soon going to find that Dorak's "forty years ago" was indeed rounded to the nearest ten or something. All in all I think this article is pretty good - especially to look at... I love the main picture(Ulicus 16:58, 23 May 2006 (UTC))
 * haha, ya, I really don't know what those LucasArts writers where smoking when they wrote the Chronicles, but its obvious that it didn't recieve enough editorial attention...--Sentry 21:47, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Aftermath Section
I was playing through KotOR II again when this cropped up:

Master Kavar: ''You have to understand that it was a time of great uncertainly. We just learned that Darth Revan was back with an armada.''

This was referring to the Exile's trial, and with Kavar trying to explain why the Council took the course that they did. Therefore, it would seem that the Exile presented himself to the council *after* Revan's return, not straight after Malachor V. As it stands, the article implies otherwise. Does anyone have any problems with changing this?

How about sticking a full stop (period) after "to reject the dark side." Then taking the rest of what followed and sticking it after "So began the Jedi Civil War..." so we have a new paragraph beginning with something along the lines of: "It was at this time that the Jedi general who had lost his connection to the Force chose to return to the Jedi Council on Coruscant. Upon arrival... (continue as before)"

Thoughts? (195.92.168.173 16:47, 28 May 2006 (UTC)) --- Yeah, there are plenty of holes in the plot when it comes to what the Exile remembers. For example, you can see the hologram of Bastila and be like "Uh, who was that?" yet in the Korriban vision, it's clear that you know who Bastila is. If the JCW is just beginning, it does make the stuff the Jedi Council say whilst in session make a bit more sense - since they talk of Revan as being on "a front".
 * Really? Other sources imply otherwise. If Kavar's statement was correct, how did the Exile not know anything about the Jedi Civil War? Oh well, I guess that I'll rewrite a little of that section to make it even more vague.--Sentry 21:44, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

It doesn't mesh particularly well with the Exile having to ask Atton/Kreia about the stuff that's going on - but the Exile *does* have rudimentary knowledge of the conflict if you so choose "I was under the impression that... blah blah", etc etc. I think it's fair to say that she/he knows that there is a war going on - but doesn't pay much attention to it. Or something.

Another example is when you talk to Handmaiden - one of the options is, "I was tempted to go to war against the Jedi, but I didn't", this again implies that the Exile had at least a basic understanding of what was going on.

Whatever, I don't know. Despite its flashes of excellence, KotOR 2's overall plot is a bit of a mess in the way it's put together. (195.92.168.173 00:08, 29 May 2006 (UTC)) Gah. My logging in has fallen by the wayside recently. (Ulicus 00:10, 29 May 2006 (UTC))
 * One last thing: as of my most recent playthrough (I've forgotten most others) Kavar's statement is the *only* one that specifies *exactly* when the Exile stands 'trial'. Everything else is always just "after the Mandalorian Wars" - which could, in theory, be any time between the MWs and K2 (though from the context, it's obviously not *too* long after). (Ulicus 00:25, 29 May 2006 (UTC))
 * My view of the timeline comes from the Exile's own dialog. On multiple occasions, he says that he had been gone "since the Mandalorian Wars". That implies that he was exiled very soon after the war. Furthermore, Kavar's statement above would imply that the Exile waited an entire year before returning to Coruscant (circa 3,959 BBY), yet within KOTOR2, Kreia is easily able to convince the Exile that he had lost his force awareness due to a punishment imposed by the Jedi Council - heck, the entire dark side path hinges on it. What did the Exile just not realize that he had lost his connection to the Force during that year following the battle of Malachor V? I think not. It just doesn't make sense...--Sentry 00:50, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

That's fair enough. Though the Exile is made pretty stupid by default (What? Kreia's a Sith Lord!? Who'd have thought?) ;). To be honest, I find the fact that "Kreia is easily able to convince the Exile that he had lost his force awareness due ot a punishment imposed by the Jedi Council" to be completely unrealistic even if he *did* go back to face the council straight after the wars. S/he would be aware that his connection had been cut off before he visited the council. Following that line of thought, it's not hard for me to think "well, if he can buy that, he can buy anything - even if he saw the council almost a full year later". Ah well, I'll probably just chalk it down as being another example of internal KotOR II inconsistancies, but that doesn't invalidate what Kavar says. You do get the option to say that you've been "gone since the mandalorian wars" quite often, that's true and is an argument that has merit - even though the Exile has the option to say other things that imply that he didn't get exiled straight after - but making the assumption that the Exile couldn't *possibly* believe Kreia's "The Council did it" line if he was exiled a year later, is speculation. Yeah, personally I'd agree with you and think he'd be silly to swallow it, but maybe he believes it because he *wants* to believe it. The Exile does seem to pick and choose what he remembers about the war and the years since, Bao-Dur for example.
 * Too true.--Sentry 04:25, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

I can quite easily reconcile the "gone since the mandalorian wars" stuff with the Exile being 'properly' exiled a year after - since I doubt he was doing much between Malachor V and his trial. For me, the Exile being exiled just as the Sith are revealing themselves makes more sense - especially in the light of options you have with Atris when you first meet her such as:

"You still think I'm a sith?" yada yada.

Ne'ermind- it's not actually neccessary to see a major change in the aftermath section, just 'vague it up' a bit - as you suggested - since there *is* somewhat conflicting info in the game.

Actually, you could probably just stick an "eventually" in: "and return to Coruscant", so it now reads "and, eventually, return to Coruscant". That'll do, since it can be read in such a way that it covers both bases. At least, I think it can, but it's late and I'm probably not thinking at all.

At the end of the day, he was exiled after the Mandalorian Wars. It doesn't really matter if it was a day after or a year after. All I ask is that the latter not be *ruled out* in this article. It doesn't have to be explicitly stated, just not ruled out. Ok. Work tommorow. Time for sleep I think. (Ulicus 03:22, 29 May 2006 (UTC))
 * I actually already fixed it. I just changed "After the Battle, ..." to "After the war, ...". That should cover all possibilities without forcing us to make a judgement call...--Sentry 04:25, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Ah alright, I should have checked, sorry. Doesn't give quite as much leeway as 'eventually' (or maybe it does, my skills with english seem to be atrophying) but I'm ok with it. Thanks. (Ulicus 11:17, 29 May 2006 (UTC))

For reference however, this is the full quote by Kavar (I'd forgotten the second portion):

''You have to understand that it was a time of great uncertainly. We just learned that Darth Revan was back with an armada. Every Jedi that went with him was... lost, corrupted, and as dark as their Master. And then there was you. Many thought you were a spy.''

It gives the Exile's trial a very clear chronologial context. I know that there might be some discrepencies when you factor in a few of the dialog options the Exile has, or when justifying his/her belief that the Council stripped him of the Force - but it's too *much* of clear chronological reference to be a mistake, at least in my eyes. (Ulicus 14:16, 31 May 2006 (UTC))

Extinction of the Mandalorian species
I just happened upon a very interesting statement made by HK-47 in KOTOR2: "Malachor V was an impressive act of destruction, but its impact on the lives of others in the galaxy was more extreme. I mean, master, you brought about the death of the Mandalorian race. I doubt they realize it yet, but you delt them a blow from which they will never recover."

- HK-47 (speaking to the Exile) This seams to imply that the entire Mandalorian species was wiped out in the war... then again HK might have just been using colorful language...--Sentry 06:14, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't think it's far fetched at all to suggest that the developers were using Hk-47 to say that the taung had been wiped out, though I'd be surprised if other EU sources picked up on it - we'll see. Maybe a little comment somewhere in the article, or on the taung page, along the lines of: "the assassin droid, Hk-47 was under the impression that the taung were completely wiped out during the Mandalorian Wars" It would explain why all the Mandalorians we see in K1 + 2 are human (beyond the obvious "devs couldnt be arsed to design them" reason)... I don't know. You usually make good decisions, if you think it's worth it, I'll not object.(Ulicus 11:25, 29 May 2006 (UTC))


 * Not really. As the quote you just provided says, he dealt them a blow they wouldn't recover from, which we know from the fact they became an "army for hire". It doesn't imply the enitre species died in the war, it implies his actions acted as a catalyst for their eventual downfull. Jasca Ducato 12:35, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I'd have probably noticed that had I taken the time to read the third sentence... *slaps forehead* (Ulicus 01:45, 30 May 2006 (UTC))
 * Ya, the quote is extremely vague. I'm not sure what he is implying exactly and I don't suggest we add anything to the article, but I think it is notable that HK uses the phrase "the Mandalorian race" here. The idea that the Exile could have exterminated the entire species at Malachor V seems more than a little unlikely...--Sentry 05:44, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Holes / wounds in the Force
Does anyone else think that an article about 'Wounds in the Force' would be useful? I know of several such locations: Malachor V, the Dark Side Cave on Dagobah, in orbit above Endor, and (possibly) at Alderaan. I'm just bringing it up here instead of Article requests because it is an obscure topic and I rather discuss it with those who know something about it. I think that such an article would be very useful for any discussion of the Exile and Malahcor V...--Sentry 07:54, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Your actually sitting on a good idea there Sentry! Its a little adressed topic granted and the info would be "limited" but there is enough information to warrant an article. Jasca Ducato 08:48, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Sounds like a good addition to Wookieepedia to me. (Ulicus 14:19, 31 May 2006 (UTC))
 * Alright, the topic is covered slightly in the 'Disturbances in the Force' section in the Force article, but I think a full article would be useful. Here it is: Wound in the Force. I could use some help expanding it, most of the text is currently taken from the section from the 'Force' article...--Sentry 22:57, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

True Sith
Maybe we shold add a reference to them MoffRebus 10:42, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I suggest you take a look at the discussion over at the true sith talk page before you continue to remove links to the Sith Empire and replace them with links to True Sith. You have removed a lot of confirmed info from various articles and replaced it with what amounts to fanon... Little or nothing is known at this time about the "True Sith", so anything added to an article such as this would be pure conjecture.--Sentry 11:36, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Revan was not at Malachor V
I put this in the "End of the War" section

Revan lured the Mandalorians to the cursed planet of Malachor V however would not take place in the final battle of the wars. He was delayed by a Mandalorian scouting party containing Mandalor the Ultimate himself. Revan met Mandalor in single combat and killed him, taking Mandalor's helmet from his dead body and hiding it to succesfully prevent the Mandolorians from choosing a new leader and countinuing the war.

Revan was not at Malachor as Bao-Dur says

"Revan had been delayed by Mandalorian scouting parties
 * You're right, Revan was delayed (read: deliberately kept himself away from the planet) and wasn't there when the Mass Shadow Generator was set off. However, that wasn't the end of the battle. Not every mandalorian ship was destroyed - and Revan and his loyalist forces swept in and mopped up the survivors, sealing the Republic victory. It's Mandalore by the way :P(Ulicus 00:27, 4 July 2006 (UTC))
 * Nice! I knew that was mentioned somewhere, but I just couldn't remember when or where... I have been looking for that quote for quite a while. We had been discussing it on the Jedi Civil War talk page.-- Sentry &#91;Talk&#93; 06:23, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

It should be changed again, Revan was not there during the activation of the MSG, Why would he? He was delbritly trying to stay AWAY from Malachor, if he was at Malachor during the activation of the MSG and survived he'd be a wound in the force, just like Exile.
 * No source says that Revan was not in the Malachor system during the activation of the MSG nor is their any evidence that he was trying to avoid the planet. The sequence of events described in the article is a combination of all of the different accounts of the battle, including that found in the Chronicles, Canderous' account in KotOR, and the numerous references found in KotOR II. Those accounts are not easy to reconcile, but this article attempts to do so. I think that it currently describes the only arrangement of the confirmed facts that makes any sense whatsoever...-- Sentry &#91;Talk&#93; 05:23, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

References:

– Sentry &#91;Talk&#93; 05:38, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Continuity
I'm posting some interesting comments that the writer of the KotOR comic book series wrote on the Dark Horse message boards in response to a grilling by some fans. It seems that the continuity problem is about to be solved/explained...

"The next arc, "Flashpoint," addresses the war specifically -- and addresses this among many other questions. It also introduces several new mysteries.

That said -- it is usually a good idea to pay some heed to the word approximately when you see it in the inside front cover. Since this era isn't broken down into smaller units of time than years, it's easy to make the mistake of thinking that everything that happened in, say, 750 BBY was 1 year before everything that happened in 749 BBY. Of course, some of it was just yesterday (if it's New Year's Day or the equivalent) -- and some of it was essentially two years ago (if it's New Year's Eve).

I mean, in conversation, when someone says something happened 10 years ago, unless it's an anniversary, they often really mean 10 years ± 187.5 days. This is NOT the explanation for the question you asked about, but it's something to think about. Whether in fiction or life, we are usually only as precise as we intend to be."

- John Jackson Miller 

"Not wanting to further flog the expired equine, a last thought from me on this matter at this time:

Today, we hear historians, documentarians, and, yes, even people who lived through it speak of World War I -- and yet, at no point during that conflict did anyone really call it "World War I." The name of the war is a fact -- but it wasn't a fact until later.

There are many ways in which history often looks different on the scene than it's recalled in retrospect. You're about to be on the scene -- and we promise that everyone's understanding of the period will be enriched for it.

It makes sense to us -- and we're almost there. When "Flashpoint" is done we can discuss what's known a lot more productively..."

- John Jackson Miller 

– Sentry &#91;Talk&#93; 06:04, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, it's nice to know that my "rouding up and down" suggestion in the "Expansion and Clean-Up" section was along the right lines :D (Ulicus 15:13, 25 July 2006 (UTC))
 * I, for one, can only commend JJM for his attempts to bring some sanity and plausibility. What he lacks in knowledge of continuity he compensates in common sense, which is a trait rarely found among Star Wars authors. - Sikon [ Talk ] 16:18, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I'll second that. He is also quite humble and willing to admit his mistakes which I find to be very admirable and rare among SW authors.– 21:23, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Update
Okay, the article needs to be updated. The 'Date discrepancy' section needs to be eliminated, the intro has to be rewritten, and some mention of events on Taris has to be integrated into the text of the 'Rise of the Neo-Crusaders' and 'Invasion' subsections. Can someone please help me figure out what else needs to be changed and how we should go about it? I don't have a susbscription for the comic (I like TPB's better), so I only have John Jackson Miller's criptic comments posted on his website to work with&hellip;– 02:03, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Origins
I feel this article fails at covering the very reason for the war&mdash;the unknown Sith who approached Mandalore. It's only given two throwaway mentions in the current article. --Imp 21:43, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Well that is because we know next to nothing about that event and there is little evidence to support the theory that that particular meeting between the Sith and Mandalore the Ultimate was the "the very reason for the war", as you put it. The origins of the war were very complex and very little is currently known about the Mandalorians' motivations.– 23:23, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
 * This is the evidence: Image:Kotorsithoffer.jpg and Image:Kotorsithchoice.jpg. First, Canderous saying the Sith told the Mandalorians to attack the Republic. Second, Carth explaining Revan's belief. --Imp 23:46, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I know about that evidence. I never denied it. I was simply saying that we do not have enough information to really extrapolate much meaningful information from it. All of the characters are speaking from hearsay; as far as we know, neither Canderous nor Revan were actually in a position to know what really happened. More importantly, at this point in time, we do not even know who or what the True Sith actually were. The article already says that the Sith goaded the Mandalorians into invading the Republic. What more would you like to add to the article?––00:45, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I never brought up the True Sith... :P I see your points and agree with them. I guess I just feel it's brought up as a "by the way" in the article. --Imp 01:07, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I know how you feel, believe me. The entire "invasion" section is quite weak at the moment. When I wrote it, I was working with very little information and I was trying to avoid speculation as much as possible. Luckily, the new comic series will probably fill in the details. As for the "True Sith", I guess you are correct. We cannot even verify if it was them who pushed the Mandalorians into the war or if it was another group such as those running the academy on Korriban.– 19:12, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

I just remeberd the thing where bao-dur says about revan not showing up, he said i had the dream about malachor, revan didn't show up this time, being delayed by scouts. those aren't the right words but they were something to that effect, so i presume revan showed up in orringaly and not in bao-durs dream Groode hdoge 21:41, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

I think that the Origins section is too big. It is centered much on events before the war, even those only indirectly linked to it, too much detailed on the previous Mandalore, and with information repeated elsewhere (not to mention three whole pics which are relevant to the existing text but not the article itself or the origins). A trim or cleanup would be good MoffRebus 10:29, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Commanders
In KotOR 2, there were a few more commanders who participated which were mentioned by Atton. Not so sure as to whom but he does mention it, when talking to him about his past.
 * Saul Karath, General Derred, and Mon Halan were all mentioned in that conversation and they are present in the article.– 23:39, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Battle of Cathar's placement is wrong
As far as I'm aware, the whole "the battle of Cathar galvanised Revan into action" comes from the NEC. However, in the game itself, it is abundantly clear that the battle occurs sometime in the period that started in 3976 BBY... this is a *huge* mistake on the NEC's part, makes Juhani seven years old in KotOR and means she has no time for her Taris backstory. I suggest that, instead of us saying that the Battle of Cathar occurred in 3963BBY, we instead say that it was only in 3963 BBY that the public at large (and Revan) heard about the atrocities that the Mandalorians committed there *several years before*, and that this was part of what galvanised Revan into action. In instances where the NEC contradicts the game so blatantly, we obviously go with the source material... unless "Darth Kreia" is canon now too. I'm changing the battle's chronological place to better reflect the truth (whatever it may actually be)(Ulicus 02:20, 24 February 2007 (UTC))