Forum:CT Archive/Lists in articles

I attempted to start a discussion about the matter here first, but that has gone nowhere and there have been no official answers. Therefore I am creating this CT to make it official.

Exactly when was it made a site policy to remove lists from articles? I'm not finding it in the CT archives, so was it during a Mofference? As a long-term Wookieepedian, I completely understand the premise behind the removal of lists from pages. However, I am an experienced user, and therefore I am perfectly knowledgeable on how to use categorization to find things.

Newer users are not as knowledgeable, and therefore having the lists in articles is helpful for, as an example, finding all the difference models in the YT series. Not to mention, having the lists doesn't hurt anything or detract from an article. If there is a concern about status articles, make it a rule that lists cannot be included in a required word count for status articles. If it is about too much white space, we can make long lists have 2-3 columns or put them into a scrollbox as suggested. Or we could take 's suggestion of using a template like this as a solution. It lists what needs to be listed, but does not affect things like wordcount or create empty space. -  JMAS  Jolly Trooper.png Hey, it's me! 19:15, October 10, 2013 (UTC)

Allow lists in articles

 * 1) Per my reasons above and below. -  JMAS  Jolly Trooper.png Hey, it's me! 19:15, October 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * 2) Stop deleting descriptive lists.-- Richterbelmont10  ( come in R2! ) 23:13, October 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * 3) See below. Bo Shuda (talk) 03:13, October 12, 2013 (UTC)
 * 4) Some lists can and should be replaced with prose and/or category links, but not all. (Declaration of the Alliance of Free Planets and Why Do We Fight the Empire? have reasonable uses of lists.) &mdash;Silly Dan (talk) 05:23, October 12, 2013 (UTC)

Lists should be discouraged

 * 1) I've been seeing this and it works better than saying "you need to keep lists." Certain editors keep them and some remove them. Yet, some also try to turn lists into a paragraph or two. Imo, lists generally offer little, since their only purpose is to direct readers to a different article. Let's be more encyclopedic and write.  JangFett  (Talk) 18:24, October 12, 2013 (UTC)
 * 2) Per Jang.-- Exiled Jedi  Oldrepublic crest.svg (Greetings)  18:31, October 12, 2013 (UTC)
 * 3) I was just thinking of adding an option like this. Well said. Cade  StupidRepublicEmblem-Traced-TORkit.svg  Calrayn  18:32, October 12, 2013 (UTC)
 * 4) Agreed. Lists should not be summarily removed, but they should be discouraged in favor of writing. ~ Savage BOB sig.png 19:05, October 12, 2013 (UTC)
 * 5) Per Jang. Lists are already implicitly discouraged because they do not feature in any of our standard article layout guides, so it would be contradictory were we to outright support their usage. --Jinzler (talk) 19:12, October 12, 2013 (UTC)
 * 6) Per all above. It's basically reiterating what we already do.  CC7567  (talk) 19:17, October 12, 2013 (UTC)

Discussion
If Wookieepedia is meant to be easily accessible and useable for both experiences and novice users, then I believe these lists should be added back into the articles. They aren't hurting anything, and in my thinking, only help new users. -  JMAS  Jolly Trooper.png Hey, it's me! 19:15, October 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * Lists are already allowed in articles. They're just generally discouraged in favor of prose. Why are we voting to approve something that isn't restricted? Toprawa and Ralltiir (talk) 19:25, October 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * Because for the last several months I've seen lists being arbitrarily removed for articles. As there was nothing in the CT archive about it, I figured it must have been something decided at a Mofference (something I'm not usually able to attend). No one countered that assumption in the Senate Hall thread, so I thought it would require a vote to make it official. -  JMAS  Jolly Trooper.png Hey, it's me! 19:58, October 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * The main problem I see with lists in articles is that they are static, and therefore frequently out of date and incomplete. For example, if you wanted to list all the CEC products in an article, you'd have to manually update it every time something new is introduced.  However, a category is dynamic and theoretically more accurate. Just my 2 creds. <- Omicron (Leave a message at the BEEP! ) 19:29, October 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * It sounds like we need something in WP:MOS that explains the use of lists in articles one way or another. - Esjs (Talk) 19:36, October 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * Lists are often being deleted on Wookieepedia. What I really don't get is the removal of descriptive lists, that is, lists that include descriptive information. For example, a list of Notable Zabrak was removed twice from the article here and again here. I had to manually re-enter the list as prose in order for it to stay, which I found silly. It was good information that didn't deserve to be removed just because it was in "list form." Notable individuals is even requested in the Layout Guide! But because it was a list, it got completely deleted.-- Richterbelmont10  ( come in R2! ) 16:27, October 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * It looks much better as it is now, as prose. Lists are lazy; they're bullet points. Do they provide information? Sure. Should they be summarily removed from articles? Probably not. But I support the idea that lists should be converted to prose whenever possible. It's perhaps not worth having a CT one way or the other, but it should continue to be part of the "be well-written" part of our various status article nomination processes. ~ Savage BOB sig.png 20:16, October 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * And there's the problem: They are being summarily removed from articles. "Because it's a list" is not a good reason to remove valid information. -- Richterbelmont10  ( come in R2! ) 23:12, October 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * I wholeheartedly agree with all the reasons to keep lists. I too find it frustrating when information that is presented in list form is removed in it's entirety by a user without any attempt by that user to reinsert the information into the article somehow. It's tantamount to vandalism. Lists could work quite well if the lists themselves were presented similar to the presentation of an infobox or image; alternating from left-to-right as is the common practice here. A smaller font could be used but each entry in the list should be sourced. This would allow prose text to flow uninterrupted while allowing new users to quickly identify key information. Think of how most of the essential guides, RPG sourcebooks, etc. are laid out with text boxes peppered throughout the text. Or a template that is able to be condensed similar to the appearances template could be used to discreetly allow lists in articles. Thoughts/comments? Bo Shuda (talk) 03:13, October 12, 2013 (UTC)
 * Complete agreement with that --- if a list is removed from an article without that information being reinserted as prose, then it's removal of content tantamount to vandalism. It should never happen. Menkooroo (talk) 03:37, October 12, 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, it's been happening at a rampant rate the last several months. -  JMAS  Jolly Trooper.png Hey, it's me! 06:01, October 12, 2013 (UTC)