Talk:Dark trooper

I don't recall the Dark Trooper being indicated as a droid in Dark Forces (the phase 1 must be a droid due to its size, but the other phases appear to be suits). It certainly is not a droid in Star Wars: Rebellion. I think that this information was made up by the authors of The Essential Guide to Droids. This should at least be noted somewhere on the page.69.111.36.8
 * No, they're definitely droids, though the phase 2 and 3 models were carefully designed so that they could operated either independently, or as specialized battle armor for a trooper inside. jSarek 01:05, 19 Oct 2005 (UTC)
 * Care to give your sources or reasoning? 68.126.252.191 22:41, 6 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * I'll assume his source is the Dark Forces video game, where it's explicitly stated in the player's mission briefings that the Dark Troopers are droids. The ultimate objective of the game is to destroy the Arc Hammer, the factory ship where the Dark Troopers are built. Phase 1 and 2 Dark Troopers are definitely droids, whereas a phase 3 Dark Trooper (only one was ever produced, and was operated directly by Rom Mohc in the game's finale) can be used either as a powered suit or as an independent droid. SM-716 13:35, 14 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * I have the Prima Strategy Guide, which has a transcript of all the briefings and cutscenes. The word droid or any other suggestion of them being droids is not found in any of the briefings or cutscenes. I remember that one of the briefings has blueprints of the Dark Troopers - could the information be in the blueprints? I don't know if I really have time to beat two thirds of the game to find out right now. Please post a screenshot of your evidence.68.127.36.59 04:25, 24 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * Oh wait, I forgot about LASKIP. Silly me. I double checked and there are definitely no references to the Dark Troopers being droids. Also (I'd forgotten about this), one of the briefings says General Mohc did not support the Death Star because he strongly dislikes technology which disconnects the soldier from combat - he prefers the honor of personal combat. Now, would such a person really build an army of droids?68.127.36.59 04:43, 24 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * Don't have the free time right now to play through, so I can't offer a specific instance at the moment to prove the droidness of the Phase 2s-- which is the main reason I haven't edited the article. But the cutscene immediately following the first level (it's even on the demo version of the game) shows a machine loading Phase 2 Darktroopers into some sort of pod to be jettisoned from orbit to the surface of planet Talay. Sure, those COULD be specially-trained Stormtroopers who don't mind being bodily lifted by their head... who don't move a muscle during the process.... I never realized before that the game didn't make it clear that they were droids. I'll see what evidence I can find when I'm not working 16-hour days. SM-716 19:05, 29 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * So Phase I is a droid and Phase II is an armor... I don't buy it. Well, the facts are that all sources (including Databank) that say something about the Dark Troopers say that Phase I and II were droids. We can add a note mentioning that The Essential Guide to Droids was the first source explicitly mentioning that the Dark Troopers were droids. By the way now we have a contradiction between the first paragraph and the "Phases" section, one says that Phase II was also wearable as armor like the Phase III, while the other says that the only Phase III could be used as personal armor like Mohc did. Second version is confirmed by the available sources, can we correct the first paragraph or is there any solid source contradicting the others? --Thinortolan 23:42, 29 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * Well, I've seen it somewhere that the Phase II and Phase III armor was wearable, but I'm not sure if it was a credible source, considering I found the site a while ago. Admiral J. Nebulax 00:20, 30 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * Phase I and II were droids; Phase III was the only one that was both a droid and an exo-suit; it was noticably more massive than even the Phase II.--TIEDefenderPilot 00:27, 30 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * I think this article might be better off being completely rewritten; I'll try to do it by the weekend.--TIEDefenderPilot 00:49, 30 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * Just saying "they are droids" doesn't prove a thing. I agree it definitely needs to be rewritten. If you rewrite it, please mention all of the contradictory information on whether or not they are actually droids. As for the cutscene where they are being carried by the machine, it is actually clamped around the shoulders on either side of the neck, not directly to the head. It is weird, but I still don't believe that they are supposed to be droids. Unfortunately, I don't see how we can ever settle this matter without personally contacting Justin Chin (who wrote most of the story).69.111.74.188 02:30, 30 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * At this point, I'm actually curious about just what sources or reasoning led you to think that they were anything BUT droids. It never even occured to me that this was a topic of debate before I saw this talk page. SM-716 19:34, 30 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * As far as I know, there has never been a source that has claimed that they were NOT droids. Some might have been somewhat vague (several sources call them "mechanized super stormtroopers," which could mean droids but could also simply mean that they're mechanically augmented), but none contradict the droid and combined droid/armor descriptions (though, in looking things over, it appears I was mistaken in my assertion that the Phase 2 trooper being usable as a suit of armor; apparently, only the Phase 3 trooper was dual-use).  Moreover, several sources (the Databank, The Essential Guide to Droids and Rebellion Era Sourcebook, at the very least) DO explicitly call them droids.  Thus, there's no contradictory information - they were droids (except for the Phase 3, which was both a droid AND a suit of armor). jSarek 11:13, 30 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * It's settled, then. Admiral J. Nebulax 20:28, 30 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * It's not settled. As I said, in Star Wars: Rebellion, the Dark Troopers are described as limited users of the Force. I never thought the Phase II was a droid when I played the game because it does not look like a droid, and as I stated the game explicitely states that Mohc believes in the honor of personal combat, which does not mesh well with a droid army. And if they were droids, wouldn't they be referred to as such in the game? It's a major detail that I don't imagine they'd ignore. Instead they are often described as a new breed of stormtrooper, which further suggests organic operators.69.111.74.188 00:03, 2 Dec 2005 (UTC)
 * It is settled because games are not always reliable. Admiral J. Nebulax 00:11, 2 Dec 2005 (UTC)
 * I second Jack, Rebellion also shows Coruscant as being in Sesswenna Sector (between other planet-sector messes) and X-1 Viper droids in the Galactic Civil War, also, the supposed dark trooper image is different to the ones from Dark Forces, looks more like a SD-9 from Dark Empire. --Thinortolan 00:21, 2 Dec 2005 (UTC)
 * Also, Battlefronts I and II have been proven to gone against canon. Admiral J. Nebulax 00:24, 2 Dec 2005 (UTC)
 * I think the databank (note the category under which "Dark trooper" is filed) carries more canonical weight than the Rebellion RTS game. What more is there to say?--SM-716 02:07, 2 Dec 2005 (UTC)
 * Well then why can't we have a note in the article about contradictory sources? And I did not mean that the Rebellion description is necessarily accurate, but it is still contradictory information, which means that jSarek's assertion was incorrect. You also cannot fairly say that the issue is settled when there are people who still disagree on it and sources that disagree on it. I don't want the entire article to be rewritten, I just think there should be a note that the game does not establish that they are droids and some sources contridict the entries which say that they are droids.69.111.74.188 04:24, 2 Dec 2005 (UTC)
 * Contrary to what the others have said, every source IS canonical - Rebellion and Battlefield included - and discrepencies must be dealt with by Lucasfilm on a case-by-case basis. That said, I believe that Rebellion's Force-using statement (which I was unfamiliar with) is the only source that DIRECTLY indicates that they're not droids (not having Rebellion, they could also all be Phase 3 designs with Force users in them, for that matter).  A single piece of evidence from a comparatively obscure source is unlikely to overrule a number of sources, both well known and obscure, that indicate otherwise.  As for Mohc, he hated technology that kept a person from seeing his attacker - thus, Death Stars were frowned upon, but battle droids were right up his alley (you can see a bit more into his motivations here).  At any rate, now that I've actually seen contradictory information, I have no objection whatsoever to a Behind the Scenes note mentioning it. jSarek 06:04, 2 Dec 2005 (UTC)
 * Dark Trooper information from Star Wars: Rebellion 69.111.74.188 20:52, 3 Dec 2005 (UTC)
 * And that's a source how? Admiral J. Nebulax 21:50, 3 Dec 2005 (UTC)

When was it established that Carnor Jax used Dark Troopers to defeat the rest of the Crimson Guard? The comic only showed regular Stormtroopers.--TIEDefenderPilot 07:33, 21 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * Well, I myself don't have the comic, but sometimes the comics portray one thing as something else. Admiral J. Nebulax 12:44, 24 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * I don't know if this is reliable, but in StarWars:Battlefront 1 and 2, when a dark trooper gets shot they make a human sounding grunt and scream like stormtroopers when they die.
 * Games have many things that are not canonical, and that is probably one of them. Admiral J. Nebulax 23:18, 30 Nov 2005 (UTC)

Capitalization
Shouldn't be "Dark Trooper project" uppercase unlike direct references to dark troopers? In fact, isn't it called "Dark Forces project" or it was just the game name? --Thinortolan 00:26, 2 Dec 2005 (UTC)
 * Oops, I must have overlooked the "project" part. Admiral J. Nebulax 00:29, 2 Dec 2005 (UTC)

Vandalism
Someone has repeatedly vandalised the article by change dark trooper to "dark rrooper" or "super trooper". Someone should keep an eye on this.69.111.74.188 04:33, 2 Dec 2005 (UTC)