Wookieepedia:Comprehensive article nominations/Ao Var


 * ''The following discussion is preserved as an archive of a comprehensive article nomination that was unsuccessful. Please do not modify it.

Ao Var

 * Nominated by: &mdash; Gethralkin  Hyperwave 05:56, August 27, 2013 (UTC)
 * Nomination comments: FFG EotE Beginner Game mention of a ship (only appears in the Pash character folio)

(0 ECs/0 Users/0 Total)
Support

Object
 * 1) Exiled Jedi
 * 2) * First off, you need to add a Behind the scenes section to the article.
 * 3) **Done. &mdash; Gethralkin  Hyperwave 16:38, August 29, 2013 (UTC)
 * 4) *If the folio comes with the source, I think it would be better to merely have Star Wars: Edge of the Empire Beginner Game in the sources section, while the reference can mention the folio. If you really want to mention the folio in the sources section, you can use after the game source.
 * 5) **This is the convention as decided by admin through a consensus discussion. &mdash; Gethralkin  Hyperwave 16:38, August 29, 2013 (UTC)
 * 6) ***Actually, no. MJ says to use the "Pash's smuggler folio" only in the references - not the appearances/sources. Cade  StupidRepublicEmblem-Traced-TORkit.svg  Calrayn  17:06, August 29, 2013 (UTC)
 * 7) ****Actually, yes. MJ says to "list the Beginner Game itself as the appearance not source". And yes, references also need to list tag and not just Beginner Game.
 * 8) *****No, MJ is saying to list the Beginner Game in the Appearanxes, not the sources. And regardless, the Sources section is not considered references - it's an OOU Appearances section. The Pash note should only be used in the reference, just as MJ says. Cade  StupidRepublicEmblem-Traced-TORkit.svg  Calrayn  17:33, August 29, 2013 (UTC)
 * 9) ******I think you missed the point. Beginner Game is to be used in Appearances. Not in Sources. So, something has to be put in sources and the WotC way of doing it is the preferred way, according to MJ. He specifically states that. And it's what I did. If you have objections, it would be better to post your own on this thread, rather than piggyback on someone else's. &mdash; Gethralkin  Hyperwave 17:37, August 29, 2013 (UTC)
 * 10) *******"Beginner Game is to be used in Appearances. Not in Sources. So, something has to be put in sources and the WotC way of doing it is the preferred way, according to MJ. He specifically states that. And it's what I did." No, you did not. You did essentially the opposite of what he said, as you put the Beginner Game under the Sources section. You're very mistaken if you believe that the Sources section is required in this article; there's a difference between sources and referencing. Please look at Rorworr, which is the example that MJ linked to. The Theed Adventure Game is not in the Sources section, it is in the Appearances section as MJ has advised you to do with the Edge of the Empire Beginner Game. Cade  StupidRepublicEmblem-Traced-TORkit.svg  Calrayn  18:15, August 29, 2013 (UTC)
 * 11) ********I never said that the Theed… article was relevant, so I don't know where you got that impression. That article should have nothing to do with this discussion because it is a compilation article and this is not. I also don't understand what you are looking at in this CAnom, because the Beginner Game is very much listed under the Appearances section and the folio item source is listed properly under the Sources section, as established by MJ and supported by Menkooroo by means of his post in the aforementioned Tc ("As you can see, it's not an in-universe short story that belongs in an "Appearances" section; it's an encyclopedia entry that would go in a "Sources" section"&mdash;to which MJ did not object to Mekooroo's post but even fixed it when I made a change to the image Menk used because it I thought it was large). So, I have listed the adventure that the ship is associated with in the Appearances section, and the "encyclopedia entry" in which the ship info is found in the Sources section. They are where they are supposed to be as far as I can tell. If you can show me (under your own objection list) where any of your issues have validation in the MoS or Layout Guide, then I will be able to address them. &mdash; Gethralkin  Hyperwave 22:11, August 29, 2013 (UTC)
 * 12) *********From what I can tell MJ was talking about references, not the sources section. I still think it would be best to only have that part in the references.-- Exiled Jedi  Oldrepublic crest.svg (Greetings)  02:54, August 30, 2013 (UTC)
 * 13) **********I think that there is some confusion as to what a reference is since the Wookieepedia delineates three separate sections for particular uses. Appearances and Sources are references per the MoS and the Layout Guide. N&r is the bulleted links for the reference cites in the article. MJ was trying to indicate the preference for a reference made to a source extant of the adventure that it supplements. For a comlete analysis, here is the Tc discussion as relevant to this CAN (abridged for clarity):"MJ: 'cite everything to the game itself (Beginner Game),' Geth: 'what about instances like Ao Var that are soley [ sic ] in the short story [ vignette ] … a unique reference not used elsewhere in the boxed kit?', MJ: 'In that case, simply list the Beginner Game itself as the appearance…, and use… 'Star Wars: Edge of the Empire Beginner Game, Pash's character folio' [ as the specific reference ] …' Menk: ' [ The character folio ] is not an in-universe short story that belongs in an 'Appearances' section; it's an encyclopedia entry that would go in a 'Sources' section&mdash;.'" Therefore, the adventure and kit it comes from are appropriate only in the Appearances section, whereas the Sources section needs a more specific reference, as is done for WotC and supplements. His suggested usage is "Star Wars: Edge of the Empire Beginner Game, Pash's character folio" to indicate with a comma that the folio is not parenthetical but supplementary. His comment was elaborated on by Menkooroo as to what the precedent should be (with format containing comma as in an edition or supplement&mdash;which the folio is). MJ has kept Menk's post unchanged. However, I have recalled that the Appearance section policy states: "If something originated in a source, it would have either (First mentioned), or (First appearance) (Vignette) if part of a narrative vignette in a source." So I have updated the article thusly. How does that look? &mdash; Gethralkin  Hyperwave 13:36, August 30, 2013 (UTC)
 * 14) * Is there not any information from the adventure?
 * 15) **No. &mdash; Gethralkin  Hyperwave 16:38, August 29, 2013 (UTC)
 * 16) * Is there not any context about why Teemo allowed Pash to use his ship?
 * 17) **No. Just that it was the ship Pash used and it technically belonged to the Hutt, as stated in the article body. &mdash; Gethralkin  Hyperwave 16:38, August 29, 2013 (UTC)
 * 18) * Is there any more context on Pash's use of the ship?
 * 19) **No. Which is why we are here instead of GA. &mdash; Gethralkin  Hyperwave 16:38, August 29, 2013 (UTC)
 * 20) * Could you mention that the freighter was made by Ghtroc Industries instead of pipelinking the company and freighter name. It would be better to have a first sentence saying that the ship was a Class 620 light freighter produced by Ghtroc Industries. You will need to find another source for this.
 * 21) **How does that look? Otherwise, Ao Var is literally described in the source as a "Ghtroc 720 freighter," but without much context beyond that. &mdash; Gethralkin  Hyperwave 16:38, August 29, 2013 (UTC)
 * 22) * Is there any indication of what Pash did with the money from selling the ship?
 * 23) **No. &mdash; Gethralkin  Hyperwave 16:38, August 29, 2013 (UTC)
 * 24) * Context on the Galactic Civil War.
 * 25) **Other than the evidence that Pash missed out on dying when Alderaan was blown up because he was in prison (which is not even indirectly relative to this article) *, there isn't anything to specify when Pash used the Ao Var. &mdash; Gethralkin  Hyperwave 16:38, August 29, 2013 (UTC)
 * 26) *** * Except to establish time period. &mdash; Gethralkin  Hyperwave 22:11, August 29, 2013 (UTC)
 * 27) * The image of the freighter looks kind of bad where it is. I would say that the image is not even really representative of the ship since the Ao Var is described as rusty and old. If you must have the image, the best spot for it to be would be in the infobox with a caption. an example of this can be found here. -- Exiled Jedi  Oldrepublic crest.svg (Greetings)  18:27, August 27, 2013 (UTC)
 * 28) **Except that the Zarra article is about the class of rifle&mdash;not a specific or named rifle&mdash;and the image in that article serves its purpose and depicts that class of rifle (the thumbnail note in the Zarra rifle infobox is to retain visual focus on the rifle because the image does not solely display the rifle). The Ao Var article is about a specific ship and not about the class of 720 ships. The infobox is for a representation of the article subject, so putting a class image in the infobox that is not specifically the actual subject is not allowed. It has been reverted when tried. As to the image used in the Ao Var article body, it definitely shows a Ghtroc 720 that is falling apart as it's flying. &mdash; Gethralkin  Hyperwave 16:38, August 29, 2013 (UTC)
 * 29) ***If you really want to keep the image, then put it in the BTS like the image of the rifle in the Zarra article. As it currently stands, the body is too small for an image. Cade  StupidRepublicEmblem-Traced-TORkit.svg  Calrayn  18:12, August 29, 2013 (UTC)
 * 30) ****Done, but, again, this was someone else's objection and your comment would be better suited (and more appropriate as well as being more easily recognizable) in your own objection list. I'm serious. I can't keep track of who needs what if you keep tailing other lister's objections with your own. &mdash; Gethralkin  Hyperwave 22:11, August 29, 2013 (UTC)
 * 31) *Could you add the author and release year for the beginner game in the BTS?
 * 32) **Added the release date (thought I had that in there already, but I guess not). The author of the specific folio is not known. &mdash; Gethralkin  Hyperwave 13:36, August 30, 2013 (UTC)
 * 33) ***The Beginner Game article says that Sterling Hershey wrote the game. Wouldn't that mean he wrote the folios as well?-- Exiled Jedi  Oldrepublic crest.svg (Greetings)  14:03, August 30, 2013 (UTC)
 * 34) ****No. Sterling Hershey was not the only author for EotE. Nor did he write every part of the beta test (which he actually is specifically credited for). The specific author(s) of the folio(s) is unknown. &mdash; Gethralkin  Hyperwave 23:06, August 30, 2013 (UTC)
 * 35) *I do not believe that you should have links in the image caption that are already in the article.
 * 36) **Agreed. It's already in the body, anyway. Removed. &mdash; Gethralkin  Hyperwave 13:36, August 30, 2013 (UTC)
 * 37) ***There are still links in the image caption.-- Exiled Jedi  Oldrepublic crest.svg (Greetings)  14:03, August 30, 2013 (UTC)
 * 38) ****Oops. Edited and I guess it didn't save. Done. &mdash; Gethralkin  Hyperwave 23:06, August 30, 2013 (UTC)
 * 39) * Please include the length of a standard Ghtroc Class 720 freighter in the infobox and body. The Last Command Sourcebook has the length at 38 meters.
 * 40) **I didn't think that was allowed. Most of the freighters were necesarrily modular, and if the Ao Var was customized with longer structure at bow or stern, that number would be invalid. I remember that being explained to me on previous edits to ships that I have done where that kind of speculation was reverted. I think that it is only valid if the cited source specifaically states that it is a stock ship, but this is mentioned as such. &mdash; Gethralkin  Hyperwave 13:36, August 30, 2013 (UTC)
 * 41) ***I see your point.-- Exiled Jedi  Oldrepublic crest.svg (Greetings)  14:03, August 30, 2013 (UTC)
 * 42) *You can mention that it had a crew of at least one in the infobox and body.-- Exiled Jedi  Oldrepublic crest.svg (Greetings)  02:54, August 30, 2013 (UTC)
 * 43) **Didn't think of that, thanks. &mdash; Gethralkin  Hyperwave 13:36, August 30, 2013 (UTC)
 * 44) ***This still has not been added to the article.-- Exiled Jedi  Oldrepublic crest.svg (Greetings)  14:03, August 30, 2013 (UTC)
 * 45) ****As per above, it looks like the edit I did was not saved. Fixed now. &mdash; Gethralkin  Hyperwave 23:06, August 30, 2013 (UTC)
 * 46) *You're at 208 words, so you will need to write an intro and section the article per the Layout guide.-- Exiled Jedi  Oldrepublic crest.svg (Greetings)  14:03, August 30, 2013 (UTC)
 * 47) **Will do. &mdash; Gethralkin  Hyperwave 23:06, August 30, 2013 (UTC)
 * 48) Cadeth
 * 49) *Context on Alderaan, Galactic Civil War (i.e. who was fighting), Mos Shuuta, and Tatooine. Don't assume that the reader knows what those are.
 * 50) **Done. &mdash; Gethralkin  Hyperwave 22:11, August 29, 2013 (UTC)
 * 51) ***Still no context on Alderaan.
 * 52) ****How about "Rebel sympathizing planet"? &mdash; Gethralkin  Hyperwave 13:36, August 30, 2013 (UTC)
 * 53) *You make no mention of Escape from Mos Shuuta in the BTS. Cade  StupidRepublicEmblem-Traced-TORkit.svg  Calrayn  18:12, August 29, 2013 (UTC)
 * 54) **Done. &mdash; Gethralkin  Hyperwave 22:11, August 29, 2013 (UTC)
 * 55) ***No, still no mention of the ship appearance in Escape from Mos Shuuta. Cade  StupidRepublicEmblem-Traced-TORkit.svg  Calrayn  02:45, August 30, 2013 (UTC)
 * 56) ****The ship appears in the prologue supplementary folio, so I have edited it to reflect that. &mdash; Gethralkin  Hyperwave 13:36, August 30, 2013 (UTC)
 * 57) *You appear to have a problem with appositives and commas. Teemo the Hutt is not the only Cartel gangster, and Alderaan is not the only Rebel-sympathizing planet. There's no need to separate them with commas. See here for further reference.
 * 58) **Wow, you went all out to attempt correcting my grammar. I take Masters-level composition and grammar classes at a major university, so I am pretty sure I know an appositive when I see it. I doubt that my university would take me seriously if I used "Grammar Girl" from "quickanddirtytips.com" as a reliable source of grammatical instruction (I actually laughed when I saw that). I happen to be proficient enough to have been invited to teach upper-level university composition classes even though I have yet to receive my Bachelors. Therefore, if we are going to whip out grammar rules, let's do it correctly and not bandy words like "appositive" without knowing how to properly use them. First of all, we will dispense with our spurious "quickanddirty" source and use an accredited academic source (I regard universities to be authorities on grammar). Although manuals of style (I own three) in print are more current, for ease of verification I will use Purdue University's Online Writing Lab (OWL) as my source in this discussion&mdash;which I highly recommend to you for helping back up your statements on grammar rules. OWL is a great resource for the casual learner to understand such things as count and noncount nouns, articles (particularly, the difference between using "a" and "an"), and (as in the case of this discussion) appositives. The OWL establishes that an appositive "phrase usually follows the word it explains or identifies," and is "set beside another noun or pronoun to explain or identify it" (OWL). Per OWL:"In some cases, the noun being explained is too general without the appositive; the information is essential to the meaning of the sentence. When this is the case, do not place commas around the appositive; just leave it alone. If the sentence would be clear and complete without the appositive, then commas are necessary; place one before and one after the appositive. (OWL [ emphasis, mine ] )"In the following quote containing examples, I will use bold to identify the noun and italics to identify the appositive:"The popular US president John Kennedy was known for his eloquent and inspirational speeches.""Here we do not put commas around the appositive because it is essential information. Without the appositive, the sentence would be, 'The popular US president was known for his eloquent and inspirational speeches.' We wouldn't know who the president is without the appositive.""John Kennedy, the popular US president, was known for his eloquent and inspirational speeches.""Here we put commas around the appositive because it is not essential information. Without the appositive, the sentence would be, 'John Kennedy was known for his eloquent and inspirational speeches.' We still know who the subject of the sentence is without the appositive."So, non-restrictive appositives need commas, and restrictive appositives must not have commas. Please compare the above proper English grammar rules with the following sentence from Ao Var:"Though a smuggler named Pash piloted the ship, it was technically the property of the Cartel gangster Teemo the Hutt."Therefore, while you are correct that "Teemo the Hutt" is the appositive phrase, you are incorrect in assuming that it is non-restrictive. The phrase "Teemo the Hutt" tells us which "gangster" the sentence is referring to and is thus restrictive. To test this, we remove the appositive and check if the subject of the sentence is obscured without it:"Though a smuggler named Pash piloted the ship, it was technically the property of the Cartel gangster."Without Teemo, it is too vague to understand which gangster is being discussed. My way is correct. Hope that helps, and that this has been as fun for you as it has been for me. ;) &mdash; Gethralkin  Hyperwave  22:56, August 30, 2013 (UTC)
 * 59) *Please give a time reference to when the Ao Var was old and rusty; It wasn't old and rusty its entire career. This can be done by moving the "during the Galactic Civil War between...." to the first sentence, which will then read something like "The Ao Var" was a Class 720 light freighter manufactured by Ghtroc Industries that was old and rusty by the time of the Galactic Civil War between the Galactic Empire and the Rebel Alliance." Cade  StupidRepublicEmblem-Traced-TORkit.svg  Calrayn  15:12, August 30, 2013 (UTC)
 * 60) *Is the ship mentioned in two separate materials (the Beginner Game and the Adventure) or just one? Because if it just appears in the folio in the Mos Shuuta adventure, there's no need for a sources section. Cade  StupidRepublicEmblem-Traced-TORkit.svg  Calrayn  15:15, August 30, 2013 (UTC)

Comments
 * About 120 words. &mdash; Gethralkin  Hyperwave 05:56, August 27, 2013 (UTC)
 * Now at 175 words. &mdash; Gethralkin  Hyperwave 16:44, August 29, 2013 (UTC)
 * Oops, I somehow dropped content between edits and after putting it back in, the count is at 182. &mdash; Gethralkin  Hyperwave 17:16, August 29, 2013 (UTC)
 * About 190 now, but still well under 250. Let me know if I need a intro and separate History sections. I will do what I can if it needs to head off to GAN, but with the scant info on the ship it doesn't look like it will, even with a separate intro. &mdash; Gethralkin  Hyperwave 22:23, August 29, 2013 (UTC)

Vote to remove nomination (EC only)

 * 1) I normally don't read the CAN, but I am very disappointed with how this CAN nomination is unfolding. Geth, as a nominator, you should be willing to accept objections. Compromise is one thing, but being entirely defensive is another. I'm stunned by your unwillingness to accept the objections. Seeing you revert and change copy-edits, as well as shrugging off Cade's grammar remark by saying "Grammar Girl" from "quickanddirtytips.com" as an accredited source? That's really funny," is equally unsettling. That's unacceptable. I'm sorry, Geth, but I have no choice but to start a removal process. Until you're willing to adhere to objections, and constructively compromise, please don't nominate this again.  JangFett  (Talk) 23:22, August 30, 2013 (UTC)
 * 2) Per JangFett. It's hard to review an article when nearly every objection is contested.-- Exiled Jedi  Oldrepublic crest.svg  (Greetings)  23:28, August 30, 2013 (UTC)
 * 3) As it currently stands, the article's going to have to go to the GAN with the current objections anyway.  Cade  StupidRepublicEmblem-Traced-TORkit.svg  Calrayn  23:51, August 30, 2013 (UTC)