Wookieepedia:Featured article nominations/Laigrek (second nomination)


 * ''The following discussion is preserved as an archive of a featured article nomination that was successful. Please do not modify it.

Laigrek

 * Nominated by: User:Devan2 19:42, 17 June 2008
 * Nomination comments: It's detailed and long considering it's on a creature with very little information.

(7 Inqs/2 Users/9 Total)
Support
 * 1) Nomination adopted by Goodwood  [[Image:Redstarbird.svg|20px]] ( Alliance Intelligence ) 06:16, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
 * 2) Fairly clean, if mostly the same as last time. That BtS note is welcome new stuff, though.  Atarumaster88  [[Image:Jedi_Order.svg|20px]] ( Talk page ) 19:59, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
 * 3) Only due to Goodwood's work on the nom, and not the way it was originally nominated. Nice BtS addition, Goodwood.  Greyman ( Talk ) 15:48, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * 4)  Chack Jadson  (Talk)  15:31, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
 * 5)  Cavalier One ( Squadron channel ) 23:07, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
 * 6)  Master Aban Fiolli  {Alpheridies University ComNet} 22:46, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
 * 7)  Graestan ( Talk ) 00:16, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
 * 8)  Ifindyourlackoffaithdisturbing  ( You're all clear kid! )( Now let's blow this thing and go home! ) 21:05, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
 * 9) Good perseverance through the objections. Toprawa and Ralltiir 13:41, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Oppose
 * 1) Please read the requirements at the top of the page&mdash;it's less than 1000 words. -- AdmirableAckbar (Talk) 19:46, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
 * 2) Stuff:
 * 3) * I think "Laigreks" looks better than "The Laigrek" for the opener.
 * 4) **Addressed.
 * 5) * "Native to the remote Outer Rim planet of Dantooine, the laigrek was insectoid in appearance, with a layered exoskeleton and six scythe-shaped legs that were similar to those of an acklay.[2]" The first part of this is improperly sourced, and I would remove the Acklay comparison, since I can see a fair difference and acklay aren't all that well known (I think).
 * 6) **Removed the reference.
 * 7) * "They were approximately one meter in height when standing on their four hind legs" -- are heights given in Kotor? If it's inferred or something please footnote appropriately.
 * 8) **Removed height speculation, but added a further description.
 * 9) * "with the back of their layered armor colored in a shiny black with their bellies a fiery red" -- the two "with"s in a row need rewording.
 * 10) **Reworded
 * 11) * "Though native to Dantooine, the laigrek could not be found in the caves within the grassy areas that surrounded the Jedi Enclave—which would host the Khoonda outpost in the wake of the Jedi Civil War—at the time of Revan's retraining there as an amnesiac, though kinraths were plentiful.[3]" Is this necessary? I'm sure we could list a few more places they weren't present at.
 * 12) **Added that they weren't in the Rakatan ruins either.
 * 13) ***That's not really what I meant; I think it should be removed, because where they weren't isn't important/relevant.
 * 14) * Per whatever the last CT was called, cut content is supposed to go in the BtS.
 * 15) **Cut content moved and tweaked.
 * 16) * "In order to regulate the trade in artifacts, which Khoonda, run by Administrator Terena Adare, taxed for income, special permission was needed to access the sublevel." Is this relevant?
 * 17) **Added a bit to make it more relevant; the dangers posed by laigrek swarms made it necessary for Khoonda to regulate who went in.
 * 18) * "When a group of salvagers teamed up in order access areas that had not yet been plundered, they were met by a swarm of laigreks; though most got away, one was left in the sublevel, where he managed to find an empty room and lock himself within it, safe from the laigreks. The man, Jorran, was later found by the Jedi Exile during her hunt for Jedi Master Vrook. In the process, she'd killed all of the laigreks in the sublevel, thus freeing him.[1]" The first part reads more like the salvagers' bio, rather than something primarily about the laigrek. Also, did she kill all of the laigreks?
 * 19) **Tweaked the entire passage; it should be less focused on Jorran. Also, the player must kill all laigreks in order to save Jorran.
 * 20) * I am no expert, but would "Their preferred method of attack was to utilize their forelegs as large claws, slashing at their victims repeatedly, as well as biting with their sharp mouths" be game mechanics? Again, please correct me if I'm wrong.
 * 21) **Not really, because that's how they're animated/depicted when attacking the players.
 * 22) ***Right, but it's akin to saying "The Jedi Exile's fighting style involved lots of jabs to the opponent's stomach" because that's what happens in game, which I doubt would go down too well. I'll leave this for others to chime in on, though.
 * 23) * A lot of the second paragraph in the BtS seems unnecessary/speculation.
 * 24) **Eliminated.
 * 25) *I'm not sure there's enough material here for FA without fluff, and it may well be less than 1000 words after the review process. -- AdmirableAckbar (Talk) 11:18, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
 * 26) **Possibly, but hopefully it'll still pass.-- Goodwood [[Image:Redstarbird.svg|20px]] ( Alliance Intelligence ) 11:45, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
 * 27) From the desk of Atarumaster88
 * 28) * "They were quite large for insects, their height while standing on their hind legs approximately double their size when moving on all six limbs." Reword this; we've seen much larger insects; additionally the two clauses don't go well together.
 * 29) **Reworded the sentence, referencing their size with in-game viewing, if that makes sense.
 * 30) * You'll need that lightside completion template for the Jorran part.
 * 31) **Added.
 * 32) *Have a Super Terrific Friendly Un-frustrating day. Atarumaster88  [[Image:Jedi_Order.svg|20px]] ( Talk page ) 13:44, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
 * 33) **Thanks, will do.-- Goodwood [[Image:Redstarbird.svg|20px]] ( Alliance Intelligence ) 17:56, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
 * 34) From the squadron briefing of Cavalier One
 * 35) * Laigreks were not seen around Dantooine's Jedi Enclave prior to 3,956 BBY, and only glimpsed five years after the Enclave had been bombarded by forces of the Sith Empire under Darth Malak during the height of the Jedi Civil War. suggested that they were not common to the area. The final part looks like its left over from a previous revision, or missing some words and/or punctuation. - Cavalier One ( Squadron channel ) 22:22, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
 * 36) **Thanks for catching that one, mate. Fixed.-- Goodwood [[Image:Redstarbird.svg|20px]] ( Alliance Intelligence ) 22:29, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
 * 37) Toprawa:
 * 38) * Is this your own speculation, or is this explicitly alluded to in the game? "This suggested that these creatures were not common to the area."
 * 39) ** Alluded to in the game&mdash;you only see laigreks within the sublevel and nowhere else.
 * 40) ***Reworded.
 * 41) * The sublevels of what? The Enclave? The outpost? Please clarify: "They never ventured out of the sub-level, however, and left the ruined upper floors and surrounding territory open to other creatures, such as the kinrath."
 * 42) **Clarified
 * 43) * This doesn't make any sense to me whatsoever. So they had doglegs, then? I'm the same size whether or not I'm lying down or standing up. This needs to be clarified in terms of how their legs bended, please: "Laigreks' height while standing on their hind legs was approximately double their size when moving on all six limbs"
 * 44) ** It's quite simple; their height while crawling was about half that when they reared up to attack with their forelegs.
 * 45) ***Reworded.
 * 46) * What, exactly, is the size of most Humans? This kind of smells like OR. You need to source the "average size of Humans" to something: "making them approximately half the size of most Humans"
 * 47) **That fact is already sourced with an in-game comparison with the Exile and her party members; since no height is given for any party characters, and they're not exactly variant in their size, it's taken to mean "average". I could take a screenshot with a laigrek next to a human if you'd like.
 * 48) ***Reworded
 * 49) * You just said previously that they had what appeared to be compound eyes, but then they really do have eyes on the top of their head? Clarify, please: "in which were embedded smaller, blood red eyes"
 * 50) **Clarified.
 * 51) * It's OR to call it chitin if the game doesn't explicitly call it this, and especially if they are only "insectoid in appearance": "The back of their layered armor was composed of shiny black chitin"
 * 52) **Fine, fixed.
 * 53) * As would be this: "Two small black cerci jutted from the top of a laigrek's back end"
 * 54) **Also fixed.
 * 55) * What exactly is an animal-like mouth? There are many kinds of animals with many types of mouths: "and had an animal-like mouth"
 * 56) **Reworded.
 * 57) * This is kind of POVish: "There was a much more dangerous subspecies of the laigrek as well."
 * 58) **Reworded, however it should be pointed out that this subspecies is designated in-game as "deadly laigrek".
 * 59) ***Your wording for dangerous was still POV. I've changed it to "lethal." Toprawa and Ralltiir 15:05, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
 * 60) * This is pretty contradictory of what you just stated, that they were usually found in swarms: "laigreks were only found in great numbers within the bombed-out ruins..."
 * 61) **Not really. They roam the Enclave in small swarms, but they could only be found in significant numbers within the Enclave. That's two separate concepts.
 * 62) * Context needed for this Team, please: "According to content discovered by Team Gizka"
 * 63) **Added.
 * 64) * I really don't understand what this is saying. This Padawan is being sent as opposed to whom? "it was to have been the Jedi Padawan Kaevee, accidentally abandoned during the Jedi Order's evacuation from Dantooine, who had sent for the insectoids." Toprawa and Ralltiir 01:23, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
 * 65) **Reworded.-- Goodwood [[Image:Redstarbird.svg|20px]] ( Alliance Intelligence ) 01:53, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
 * 66) * This new change isn't working. You say here that "Laigreks were a species of predatory insects," but the bio immediately states that they are "insect-like" in appearance. They either are or aren't insects. Please figure out which for factual consistency.
 * 67) **Addressed.
 * 68) * "Typical" laigreks possessed this, thus implying that there were other variants that did not? Please expand on this alluded-to concept: "Typical laigreks possessed two thorn-like antennae extending from the crown of their heads" Toprawa and Ralltiir 15:05, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
 * 69) **Addressed.-- Goodwood [[Image:Redstarbird.svg|20px]] ( Alliance Intelligence ) 20:58, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
 * 70) * You now have an unsourced paragraph.
 * 71) **Addressed.
 * 72) * Since no source ever calls the laigrek an "insect," this is OR. Please remove/reword this description throughout. Toprawa and Ralltiir 14:49, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
 * 73) **Administrator Terena Adare, along with other NPCs, specifically refer to them as insects.-- Goodwood [[Image:Redstarbird.svg|20px]] ( Alliance Intelligence ) 20:52, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
 * 74) ***Curious the article referred to the species as "insect-like" for so long.
 * 75) * The picture of Kaevee is wholly irrelevant to the article. I'd like to see it replaced with a picture of this deadly laigrek. Toprawa and Ralltiir 20:47, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
 * 76) **I wouldn't say that, as it relates to the cut content in the BtS section. But the picture's been axed anyway.-- Goodwood [[Image:Redstarbird.svg|20px]] ( Alliance Intelligence ) 19:13, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
 * 77) * Can we get an image of this deadly laigrek subspecies at all? Toprawa and Ralltiir 22:27, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
 * 78) **No, because they look exactly like regular laigreks. Getting an image of them breathing fire is impossible without also showing the Exile, and we can't do that either. If it were possible I would have done it.-- Goodwood [[Image:Redstarbird.svg|20px]] ( Alliance Intelligence ) 07:59, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
 * 79) * The sublevel of what? The academy? Specify, please: "However, in the wake of the bombardment, they began to infest the sublevel."
 * 80) **Addressed.
 * 81) * This sentence kind of rubs me the wrong way, and it kinds of seems like OR. You don't necessarily know that they were just walking around randomly, despite what may appear to be in the game: "Normally, these nonsentient creatures would wander about randomly."
 * 82) **Addressed.-- Goodwood [[Image:Redstarbird.svg|20px]] ( Alliance Intelligence ) 05:43, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
 * 83) * She informed him of what? "She then informed the salvager, who promptly left the area." Toprawa and Ralltiir 22:32, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
 * 84) Grass clippings:
 * 85) * Not so sure the term "insectoid" applies to non-sentient life-forms. Is there a verbatim licensed source that establishes them as such?
 * 86) **Addressed.
 * 87) ***Choosing not to further press my point on "insects."
 * 88) * Mottling? Aren't their undersides simply red?
 * 89) **Addressed.
 * 90) ***"a fiery red and white spattered over their bellies" isn't going to do, either; the coloration really is uniform and smooth. Mottling = spattering, in my book.
 * 91) ****Addressed.
 * 92) * "Their heads also sported a pair of horn-like protrusions, with beak-like, spiked mouths." – This is worded in a way that it sounds as if each of the protrusions had a mouth. Also, upon closer inspection, their rather standard insect palps-and-mandibles mouths don't appear spiked or beak-like at all. This is going from the game images&mdash;the illustration gives them a set of tricuspid mouthparts. Later in the article, you say that they don't have mandibles, when in the game images it is rather clear they do. Also: "this was atypical of most other species of insectoids" – This statement is entirely OR, as far as I can tell.
 * 93) **Addressed.
 * 94) ***If you're going to go with "tricuspid mouthparts," you'll have to source the guide rather than KotOR II, which gives them the mandibles-and-palps look. Graestan ( Talk ) 22:55, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
 * 95) ****Addressed.
 * 96) * "Laigreks were not seen around Dantooine's Jedi Enclave prior to 3,956 BBY, and only glimpsed five years after the Enclave had been bombarded by forces of the Sith Empire under Darth Malak during the height of the Jedi Civil War. This suggested that these creatures were not common to the area, however they were not unheard of." – This all sounds very speculative. Is it anywhere stated explicitly?
 * 97) **Addressed.
 * 98) * "They never ventured out of the Enclave's sublevel" – Again, is this made explicit?
 * 99) **Yes. They're never seen anywhere else.
 * 100) ***If it's not in the dialogue, or in text anywhere, that statement is not canon. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Graestan ( Talk ) 22:55, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
 * 101) ****After another playthrough, the article has been amended to reflect that they did venture out of the sublevels and were native to the underground of the hilly regions.
 * 102) * "A laigrek's height while standing on their hind legs was approximately double their size when moving on all six limbs, making them approximately half the size of most Humans." – Height and size appear to be used interchangeably here, and I don't think that's appropriate. Laigreks certainly wouldn't mass that much less than humans.
 * 103) **Addressed.
 * 104) * We need to decide whether it's multifaceted eyes or multiple eyes (intro/biology).
 * 105) **Addressed.
 * 106) * I really think there ought to be a link to an article on the "deadly laigrek," as its capabilities certainly imply considerable difference in biology. Even a redlink would do.
 * 107) **Addressed.
 * 108) * "They were usually found in small swarms, and only rarely encountered in solitary numbers" – This is also somewhat speculative wording.
 * 109) **Addressed.
 * 110) * There's no indication that their noises are communication.
 * 111) **Addressed.
 * 112) * "Though native to the subterranean areas of Dantooine, laigreks were only found in great numbers within the bombed-out ruins of the Jedi Enclave—the area that would later host the Khoonda outpost in the wake of the Jedi Civil War." – This statement is inaccurate&mdash;Khoonda was a separate structure, based in the former Matale estate. Also, "only" is speculative.
 * 113) **Addressed.
 * 114) ***"Only" is still there, and it's still speculative. Graestan ( Talk ) 22:55, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
 * 115) ****Addressed.
 * 116) * "more and more flooded into Khoonda in order to loot the place of valuables" – Again, this makes it sounds as though Khoonda is the same location.
 * 117) **Addressed.-- Goodwood [[Image:Redstarbird.svg|20px]] ( Alliance Intelligence ) 19:06, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
 * 118) ***The wording is still somewhat inconclusive as to the structures' identities. Graestan ( Talk ) 22:55, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
 * 119) ****Addressed.-- Goodwood [[Image:Redstarbird.svg|20px]] ( Alliance Intelligence ) 20:52, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
 * 120) * Graestan ( Talk ) 03:23, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
 * 121) *Pasta bowl:
 * 122) **At least one year is mentioned in the introduction text and another is piped. These dates are not mentioned anywhere else in the article and I do not see a source or appearance listed that could provide these dates either.
 * 123) ***Addressed.
 * 124) ****3,956 BBY is not mentioned anywhere in KotOR that I've found. Please cite this date and place the reference in the sources list.
 * 125) *****I referenced the dates with the Essential Guide to the Force, but since they don't mention laigreks it didn't seem appropriate to put it in the source list. Please advise if you'd like it there anyway.-- Goodwood [[Image:Redstarbird.svg|20px]] ( Alliance Intelligence ) 20:26, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
 * 126) ****** Yes, add it to the source list. Also, if it is Jedi vs. Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force, then an exact date is not listed in there.  Master Aban Fiolli  {Alpheridies University ComNet} 19:19, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
 * 127) *******Apologies; took a chance on it being either in the EGttF or the NEC, turns out it was the latter with the dates. The article has been amended accordingly and the NEC is now in the source list.-- Goodwood [[Image:Redstarbird.svg|20px]] ( Alliance Intelligence ) 21:30, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
 * 128) ********Yay.  Master Aban Fiolli  {Alpheridies University ComNet} 22:46, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
 * 129) ** I added mention of nonsentience to the introduction. Feel free to move it as necessary.
 * 130) ***It's all good.
 * 131) ** "When they spotted trespassers within their territory, laigreks responded quickly and swarmed their prey, often with overwhelming numbers." The last clause seems speculative, especially since two sentences later it states that they were in small groups. Can this be clarified?
 * 132) ***Addressed.
 * 133) ** "Though native to the subterranean areas of the hilly regions of Dantooine, laigreks were found in great numbers within the bombed-out ruins of the Jedi Enclave—near the area that would later host the Khoonda outpost in the wake of the Jedi Civil War. However, their sudden swarming only within the sublevel of the Enclave&mdash;which had been subjected to an orbital bombardment by Sith forces under Darth Malak&mdash;proved to be a serious threat to those attempting to salvage Jedi artifacts from within the ruins." I know, its nitpicky, but&hellip; (1) Something seems out of order. The bombing of the enclave should probably be mentioned first. The current order implies that Khoonda was something far into the future. (2) The "only" in the second sentence is speculative, so it was removed.
 * 134) ***Thanks. The paragraph has been rewritten.
 * 135) ****Better; now for some tweakage. "By the time the Jedi Exile arrived on the remote world&hellip;." Give a date, if known, for the Exile's arrival. It provides a reference to when Khoonda was active.
 * 136) *****Tweaked again, with a reference.-- Goodwood [[Image:Redstarbird.svg|20px]] ( Alliance Intelligence ) 20:26, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
 * 137) ****** See above. I'll strike this one as well once the source is listed in the article.  Master Aban Fiolli  {Alpheridies University ComNet} 19:19, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
 * 138) ** "However, because of the laigreks, to dare to journey into the sublevel was extremely dangerous." Please reword. This is awkward and does not quite seem grammatically correct. Something is missing; I can't put my finger on it.
 * 139) ***Addressed.
 * 140) ****Much, much better!
 * 141) ** Due to the   clause, I made some additional changes to the text. If there are any qualms, let me know. If I think something more needs to be addressed with anything, I'll post it here.
 * 142) ***Thanks.
 * 143) **I must also mention, nice work on the BtS. It was nice to read a well-written one.  Master Aban Fiolli  {Alpheridies University ComNet} 04:22, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
 * 144) ***Thank you, sir.-- Goodwood [[Image:Redstarbird.svg|20px]] ( Alliance Intelligence ) 20:52, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
 * 145) ****Not a problem. This has definitely come up from the depths of oblivi&mdash; the subterranean soils of Dantooine.  Master Aban Fiolli  {Alpheridies University ComNet} 15:37, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Comments


 * Yes, I know I'm supposed to be on vacation. But the needs of the many (WP:KOTOR) come before the needs of the few or of the one. Current length is 1,090 words.-- Goodwood [[Image:Redstarbird.svg|20px]] ( Alliance Intelligence ) 06:16, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I've struck my "vote to remove" simply because Goodwood has a) done the work necessary to make this article an FAN, and b) he's not trying to mooch off of other's work by simply nominating an article without doing any work on it, unlike what happened. I'll try and give it a review sometime soon, Wood. Greyman ( Talk ) 03:43, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I too will give it a better look in the days to come. To be frank, from a cursory reading, I think this article is going to need much work. I will refrain from voting to remove the nomination until after I've had a better look, however. A warning: I, too, don't want to see fluff just so it stays over 1,000 words. I am not out to kill it or to make it fall below that point, but if it falls below that level, so be it.  Master Aban Fiolli  {Alpheridies University ComNet} 14:46, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Inquisitorius vote to remove nomination
 * 1)  -- AdmirableAckbar (Talk) 19:46, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
 * 2)  Take this to the GAN, my young apprentice.  Graestan ( Talk ) 14:12, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
 * 3)  It already is a GA, written by Eyrezer, and I don't think much more info can be gleaned from the sources/appearances. Plus, the nominator on this page has done no work on it at all.  Greyman ( Talk ) 14:51, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
 * 4)  Since when do we reward non-Inq laziness on the FAN page?   Atarumaster88  [[Image:Jedi_Order.svg|20px]] ( Talk page ) 16:33, 18 June 2008 (UTC)