Forum:CT Archive/Fanon - Zero Tolerance

(Links for reference: Here, here, more importantly here, and most importantly here and here.)

Okay, we've tried many times to get this fanon thing under control. And we still have a problem. So let's take care of this once and for all. I'm not gonna waste time giving the same arguments all over again; just look at the other threads (specifically the last one). Do we allow people to do nothing but work on fanon here when there's an entire wiki dedicated specifically to that? The answer seems obvious to me, and I know others feel the same. I've also heard many other people say that their opinions have swayed in this direction since the last time the issue was brought up, especially given the failure of the "edit number cap" thing.

So, should we disallow any and all fanon on Wookieepedia and instead encourage interested parties to use the Fanon Wiki? -- Ozzel 03:06, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes

 * 1) Ozzel 03:06, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
 * 2) You betcha. - Lord Hydronium 03:09, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
 * 3) Most certainly. Thefourdotelipsis 03:09, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
 * 4) Braces for the tidal wave of opposition. Cull Tremayne 03:10, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
 * 5) Duh. -- Redemption [[Image:Redemptionusersymbol.png|20px]] Talk 03:12, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
 * 6) Yep. - JMAS 03:17, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
 * 7) Indeed. Greyman ( Paratus ) 03:24, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
 * 8)  HOORJ!  -- Darth Culator  (Talk) 03:33, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
 * 9) Serves no purpose whatsoever. -- [[Image:AckbarSig.jpg|40px]] dmirableAckbar  ( It's A Trap! ) 12:08, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
 * 10) Green Tentacle (Talk) 12:47, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
 * 11) I hate fanon with all the hate in my cold, black heart. - Graestan  [[Image:Jedi_Order.jpg|20px]] ( This party's over ) 14:41, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
 * 12) I've yet to see an argument mustered for fanon except "You shouldn't care . . . fanon wiki -- what's that? Oh, well, it's still, uh, vital that we, uh, have it here. If people can't have it, they'll, like, die. Totally die. Wanting people to use the wiki for it's intended purpose? That's . . . that's not a good reason. You're a bastard. Stop caring. We should all be completely apathetic and just let Wookieepedia become MyWookieeSpace. Because caring is for jackasses." Yeah, sorry, but that's just not convincing. Havac 18:27, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
 * 13) &mdash;Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Imperial Emblem.png|20px]] 20:29, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
 * 14) Yes. This ain't a public-view scratchpad.--Goodwood 21:05, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
 * 15)  StarNeptune Talk to me! 16:16, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
 * 16) Purpilia 16:17, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
 * 17) Ve haff vays of makingk yu schtop de fanon. Enochf 17:33, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
 * 18) As Ozzel quoted me below, "If it turns out they don't, we can revisit this later;" well, it's later, and after a lot of thought, I'm revisiting. Having had to engage in edit count lawyering myself recently, I see that the old system is both a pain in the arse to implement and not terribly effective.  Fighting the symptoms of userpage over-editing would be a lot easier if we cured the primary cause. jSarek 10:17, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

No

 * 1) Allow me to be first. Unit 8311 11:11, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
 * 2) If they do nothing but fanon, kick them. If they work besides, no matter the fanon/canon ratio, keep them. This issue has been met with a no in the past, and I see no reason why this would be different. Find some sort of middle ground. DarthMRN 12:02, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
 * 3) BAH!!! Instruction creep go boom. Same arguments as last time- fanon is at the most annoying, but certainly not something that we should re-discuss every few months in yet another attempt to game the CT system. At any rate, giving people freedom to play around a little in their user namespace is not necessarily a bad thing- some people take a more casual approach to wikis than others.  Atarumaster88  [[Image:Jedi_Order.jpg|20px]] ( Talk page ) 14:25, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
 * 4) Imperialles 14:37, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
 * 5) I admit, I am still of the opinion that nearly all fanfiction on user pages is uninteresting and unoriginal even by fanfiction standards, and wastes the user's time and energy on something which no one will read. We could even write an essay on the subject to point people at.  However, I also completely agree with Ataru's assessment.  &mdash;Silly Dan (talk) 14:54, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
 * You just gave me an idea. :)  Gonk  ( Gonk! ) 22:02, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
 * 1) First it's take all fanon to the SW Fanon wiki, next it's take all jokes to Darthipedia, then it's take all non-Star Wars related stuff to Wikipedia. --  I need a name  ( Complain here ) 17:54, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
 * 2) Per Ataru, but minus the "BAH!!!".  Chack Jadson  Talk 18:01, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
 * 3) Too... fascist. Just change the "Welcome, New User" message to include "Thou Shalt Not Overly Fanonize Thy Userpage". Karohalva of Koenigsberg National Fez and Beret Interrogation Institute Karohalva 23:17, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
 * 4) *Yeah, rules are so facist. We should just be an anarchy. Havac 18:16, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
 * 5) **S'funny. That line being signed with the name "Havac". S'funny. Karohalva
 * 6) **Why isn't that put on the welcome page? That's the policy at this very moment. Cull Tremayne 19:12, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
 * 7) ***So it is already there? In that case short-term bans of violators is quite within the rules. Singe a few hindquarters if needed but don't outlaw userpage fanon. Too much falls under that category. Where would it end? Karohalva
 * 8) ****It would end with us being an online encyclopedia, not MySpace or somewhere where people can post their (in most cases utterly terrible) fanon. -- [[Image:AckbarSig.jpg|40px]] dmirableAckbar  ( It's A Trap! ) 20:13, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
 * 9) *****Yes, and utterly devoid of any humor at all. Under the "Zero tolerance" policy, Darth Culator's fictitional bio will be deleted, as will his crazy theories. Also, the Star Wars dreams will vanish, etc. ad nauseum. Atarumaster88  [[Image:Jedi_Order.jpg|20px]] ( Talk page ) 14:44, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
 * 10) ******Jokes are one thing. Inane fanon bios are something else entirely. There's an entire wiki for that. If the writing of vast joke pages becomes widespread enough that it becomes the focus of people's contributions rather than the wiki itself, we will deal with that then. That has not yet happened. With fanon, it has. Yes, this is a community. But you know what it is, primarily? It is a project. It is an encyclopedia. It is a group of people coming together to create and improve articles on Star Wars. It is not a social network except insofar as such things develop within a group project. If you're coming here to network or to work on your fanon, you don't belong here. Not because we hate you or are exclusivist bastards, but because that is not the purpose of this site. The moment we start putting the community first and the project second, we cease to be Wookieepedia and we become TFN with a slightly larger CUSWE in the back somewhere that you can maybe edit if you feel like it. Now, I'm sure some folks will come and say, "But that's mean! I love hanging out on User:BuddyPal's talk page!" To which I reply, if that's the only thing keeping you here, if the only thing that gets you to contribute to this wiki is chatting it up with the guy whose MySpace you could just as easily post on, what the hell are you doing here? Why do you need us? Why do we need you? And if you'll still be here regardless of whether you can write fanon or not, then you'll stay here and your fanon will go to the fanon wiki and no one will have a problem. If you're not here to contribute, then you can get the hell off the boat. This is a collaborative project to edit and improve entires on Star Wars topics. This isn't MySpace, it isn't a news site, it isn't a social site, it isn't a replacement for every other damn web site you want to surf all rolled into one, and the delusion that it is, that it's not an encyclopedia, that it's TFN 2.0 Now With Improved CUSWE -- that's the biggest thing currently threatening to screw the entire project over. Does that upset some people? Good. I hope it does. And then I hope they actually take a good long look at just why they're here. Havac 16:25, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
 * 11) *******When it comes to those textbook examples who do nothing but edit their fanon, you are right or course, Havac. But what about the ones in between fanon artist and editors? As you say, the project comes first. Why then not permit fanwank which nobody ever notices unless they actively search for it in return for real edits, no matter how small? This is where your argument fails, man. We've discussed this before, and you (you as in the no-side) have made it painfully clear that it is a matter of principle (Wookieepedia isn't MySpace) rather than any concerns for "the project" which fuels your anti-fanon campaign. And that is fine, BTW. Everyone has opinions. But don't pretend you (again plural) care more about the project than those principles so you can harvest votes. It makes you look Wiki-laywerish. As an aside to that, if the project really held more importance than the community, we would have given rules violators leeway based on contribs. We don't. DarthMRN 09:27, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * 12) ********I'll give you a pass because it's clear you have no idea what the fuck you're talking about. Havac 17:44, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * 13) *********I shouldn't have to give a civility warning to a fellow admin, Havac. Tone it down. jSarek 18:39, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * 14) **********I'm rather tired of MRN continually telling me how he can somehow see inside my head and expose my eeeeevil ulterior motives. He's going to tell me what I do or don't care about? Unless he's in my head, he can shut the hell up. I'm sick of it. Havac 21:19, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * 15) Per I need a name. Adamwankenobi 22:06, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
 * 16) I just don't see the "problem" that fanon inherently causes. Why should Gonk get a giant "rant" subpage when another user can't have a short fanon bio? Are we going to ban all fanon, but let Riffsyphon have 17 subpages? Do we really want to delete Sikon's page? How is a page about the dreams we have about Star Wars any more productive than fanon? --LtNOWIS 13:58, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
 * 17) *LtNOWIS's points are quite valid. Also, a more precise approach, such as refining the non-Main edit policies and stressing WP:NOT would be much more effective. - Graestan  [[Image:Jedi_Order.jpg|20px]] ( This party's over ) 14:52, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
 * 18) *Identify which of Riff's subpages are unrelated to the recording and/or analysis of canon and mark them for deletion. I plan to delete my one fanon subpage if this goes through. Hell, I'll delete it now. But my other subpages are all related to the project, which, in case you've all forgotten, is an encyclopedia of canon. I have no opposition to subpages which help us organize our personal strategies for chronicling canon. -- Darth Culator  (Talk) 18:18, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
 * 19) **Furthermore, as I said, activities are dealt with as they reach the point at which they need dealing with. We're attempting to curtail users who devote more effort to their userpages than they do to the wiki. When guestbooks became emblematic of this kind of user, we banned them. Fanon is emblematic of this kind of user and fairly widespread; we're saying now it's time to ban that too. Jokes, rant pages, whatever -- I've yet to see any of those where it looks as if the user spends any significant proportion of his Wookieepedia time working on that. If we get to the point where large, frequently edited, meticulously argued rant pages become a common problem, then I say we start a vote on those. But as it stands, there is an entire wiki, featuring much the same community of fanoneers, in existence for exactly this purpose. If we had users who tried to make a Transformers wiki out of user subpages, wouldn't we say to them, "Hey, that's not what we're for, take it to the existing Transformers wiki?" Havac 18:50, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
 * 20) i like my User page the way it is all colourfull and welcoming including the rather short fanon section IT WONT CHANGE  Dark Lord  Xander  ( Embrace The Dark Side! )[[Image:MandalorianSymbol.jpg|20px]] 10:28, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * 21) I am for having a tiny fanon profile, but against having fanon stories on it. If I want to read fanon stories, I'd go to the fanon wiki. However, I do think it is interesting to see a small user fanon character profile, as it gives a peak into what a users true interests are in SW. This is something that should basically be wrote early on in 1-2 edits, and then rarely ever touched again. If there's enough to warrant a label proclaiming it as fanon, then it's too much. Livingston  [[Image:Jedi Order2.jpg|25px]] ( The Force will be with you. Always. ) 18:55, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Find something constructive to make policy about (consider this a neutral vote)

 * 1) "...failure of the 'edit number cap' thing" ??? If they are under that cap, it shouldn't bother you. And if you don't want to see it, don't look at it. I hate fanon with a passion but I ignore it. As long as it's in the user space, it's not hurting anybody. I'd like to vote "Yes" just to not have to hear about it again. But I think a better way would be to add talking about fanon in the CT to the bannable offenses because we've rehashed this so many times. Just leave it alone for goodness sake. We've wasted more time coming up with policies than anybody has spent enforcing them. And they've probably caused the people enforcing them to spend more time worrying about fanon than and less time making constructive edits to the main namespace than if everyone who didn't want to see fanon just ignored it. (end rant). Wildyoda 15:45, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Good point. &mdash;Silly Dan (talk) 19:32, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
 * 1) Userpage fanon is like masturbation. There's nothing inherently wrong with it (provided you don't do it all the time) and I'm not going to prohibit somebody from doing it. But I don't wanna see it. That said, I think our current policy is effective, but I vote here to signal my support for ending CTs like this one. The next one should just be deleted.  Gonk  ( Gonk! ) 22:00, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
 * 2) *Isn't that just about the same thing as an "oppose" opinion? Should that side win, we stick with our current policy AFAIK. Atarumaster88  [[Image:Jedi_Order.jpg|20px]] ( Talk page ) 23:50, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
 * 3) **If I may quote our newest bureaucrat jSarek (hopefully within his intention) from the last thread: "I think the limits on userpage edits meet our goals sufficiently at this time. If it turns out they don't, we can revisit this later." That is exactly what I have done. The number limit idea didn't work out because the numbers we ended up with were way too high, and all that aside, the whole idea of counting and whatnot is just a waste of admins' time. In fact, this is just what Wildyoda was saying, except that it's our current policies (or lack thereof) that are the problem. Zero tolerance of fanon would mean far less trouble for the admins; you can see this in the number admins supporting this idea. -- Ozzel 02:10, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
 * 4) ***Bah! While we're at it, let's just have plain sigs and a generic userpage template for everyone. That would mean "far less trouble for the admins"- we'd know instantly which users were violating sig and userpage policy. Heck, if we want to take it really far, let's not have images on the Wookiee either. Then we don't have to worry about unsourced images. BAH! Atarumaster88  [[Image:Jedi_Order.jpg|20px]] ( Talk page ) 03:35, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
 * 5) ****You had me until the images thing. -- Ozzel 04:14, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
 * 6) *****Ozzel, if this CT was raised as an answer to the last solution not working properly, you should have said so at the top, and more importantly, provided a new compromise to vote for. The Zero Tolerance solution obviosuly isn't what the community wants, so then it remains to find a new solution that works and which everyone can agree upon. DarthMRN 11:29, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
 * 7) ******Fourteen to Seven (so far) says not so obvious. Thefourdotelipsis 12:44, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
 * 8) *******No, but 1 + 1 to 0 (so far) does. DarthMRN 15:58, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
 * 9) ********I love it when this type of thing devolves into childish attempts to be obvious about something. Greyman ( Paratus ) 16:05, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
 * 10) *********Ataru, I'll take your point about planning to "revisit later", but I also agree with MRN that that wasn't how this was presented. If somebody wants to lower the count, then that (a fix to the smaller policy problem) should have been brought up rather than this (a "fix" to the lager fanon problem). And I'll also agree that voting "No" is the same since policy would stay the same, but this is my way of saying we shouldn't be voting on total fanon elimination again at all, obnoxious as that may make me sound. Wildyoda 21:40, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
 * 11) I've just discovered how much I really love Gonk ;-) Oh, and I don't care about fanon on user pages. KEJ 17:01, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Comments
Oh, not this again...Unit 8311 09:34, 3 September 2007 (UTC) As I mentioned above I have no problems with a small fanon user profile, but I think when someone starts writing stories on their user pages, that's when people have a problem. The extent of my personal fanon profile is a simple infobox (I don't care if anyone looks at it, I like to see it myself), but I see nothing wrong with having 3-4 short paragraphs summarizing a fanon background for the user. I think rather than having a complete no holds barred ban on all fanon, that a more solid limit should be determined. Give a specific amount of space that can be devoted to a user fanon profile and emphasize that it should not be a story. It should have no dialogue outside of a quote, and give an example of what it should look like. If someone starts turning their brief profile into a drawn out history, issue a warning, tell them to scale it back, make sure they understand what exactly you want from them, and then give them a temp ban if they don't cooperate. Yes we are all here for a project as Wookieepedians, but first and foremost we are Star Wars geeks. The name of our game is emersion. We are not happy to sit back and simply watch the movies or read the books, we want more, we want to be a part of the universe. Thus a little fanon profile helps to fulfill that ultimate fantasy. Personally I couldn't give a dogs leg (don't ask) where you are really from, what you look like, or how many pizzas you can put away in a single sitting. If you work on this site constantly, chances are your outside life is probably pretty boring. If it weren't you wouldn't have time to be here, nor would you want to be here. Thus I don't care about your real life, as it has nothing to do with Star Wars, which is why we are here. If however you have on your user profile that you are a Bith force user raised in a secret temple on Hoth, that interests me as it gives me a little look into what you enjoy about Star Wars. It tells me why you are really here and what you can bring to Wookiepedia. *Steps down* Livingston   ( The Force will be with you. Always. ) 19:33, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Wait, so we have a "problem", yet the community has repeatedly stated in the past that it's not a problem in overwhelming terms?? 9_9 Now that makes sense. Atarumaster88  [[Image:Jedi_Order.jpg|20px]] ( Talk page ) 14:34, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Damn you Ataru, that's exactly what I was about to say...:) anyway, I agree with DarthMRN that we need some sort of middle compromise, to make it fair. Unit 8311 15:27, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I think "middle ground" is the policy we currently have. Wildyoda 15:46, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, I give you Exhibit A: A user's Wookieepedia contributions vs. the same user's Fanon Wiki contributions. Someone, please, tell me why this is a good thing for Wookieepedia. -- Ozzel 18:46, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
 * It's not. This guy should be booted. However, cases less severe than his do contribute to the wiki, and the list of reasons for why it is a bad thing for us is as short as the one with good things. This just isn't worth our attention. DarthMRN 19:41, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
 * What about accidental fanon? What I mean to say is, when entering otherwise canon information, what if a user slips up and goes a bit too far, thus ending up with a touch of inaccurate information that may be considered fanon? I don't want to see otherwise useful contributors banned because they inadvertently assumed some minor detail was true if it is not backed by canon information. Does that make sense? ;o)--Goodwood 19:21, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I think this refers to using one's user page to write long-form fanfic, not to accidentally putting inaccurate information in the main article space. &mdash;Silly Dan (talk) 19:32, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Ah, I see. In that case, I support. This ain't a MySpace.--Goodwood 21:05, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Let us remember that canon is just fanon which the Lucas gang paid for. On second thought... ignore that comment. Karohalva the Fur-jawed