Talk:Canon

What about the origional books written by Geaorge Lucas were they Written as novels or as screenplays? If different, how much authority do they play by comparison to the screenplays? Are there any inconsistancies between the books and the films? Why does Leia remember her mother in ep6 if she died during child birth but Luke does not? When in the ep3 Luke was born seconds BEFORE Leia. Will the over all Star Wars Wiki be considered C-Canon reference material?
 * The novels, as far as I am aware, were 'shadow written'- that is, they were written by someone else, but attributed to Lucas. I believe it's thus just below the movies, canon-wise. --Fade 16:58, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * In order, not that you signed or anything: (1) No novels of the Star Wars films were ever written, only novelizations which were based off early versions of the screenplays. And George Lucas' name only appears as an author on the original novelization, which was indeed ghost written by Alan Dean Foster, although he always gets credited with "Story by George Lucas". (2) Published screenplays are considered below the films (which are the ultimate canon source), but above the novelizations. Because novelizations are written concurrently with the shooting of the film, they diverge from the screenplays, which undergo on-set changes as the film is being made. Therefore, published final screenplays (not the supposed early drafts floating around the Internet) are closer to the ultimate source than the inspiration novelizations. (3) Yes, there are inconsistencies between the novelizations and the films, for reasons stated above. As with all sources, when conflict arises between two sources, the higher canon one is correct. So while the novelization of The Empire Strikes Back describes Yoda as blue and tall, the films' imagery of him as green and short prevail. (4) There is no good answer yet on the meaning of Leia's stated memories of her "mother" in light of the new films. Popular explanations include a Force-related memory or that it a memory of her adopted mother who may have died early in Leia's life (a sickness that explains why they could not have a child of their own, and Leia's appointment to the Imperial Senate while Bail Organa stayed on Alderaan to lead). (5) The Star Wars Wiki will not be considered canon at all. It is merely a collection of material at various canon levels. --SparqMan 17:43, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * If the Novels right, how is the movie/script right. A disturbance in the force this is.--wattamb2000
 * Read the article, wattamb2000 - the novels are correct unless they contradict the movies. &mdash; Silly Dan  00:23, 25 Aug 2005 (UTC)

Canon Not So Clean-Cut

 * Leland Chee just revealed something very interesting in the Holocron thread: "More likely than not, if Source A is from the films and Source B is from the EU, we'll use Source A. Of course, there can always be exceptions which is why the case-by-case determination is always in effect no matter what the Sources." In other words, there are some cases (undoubtedly quite rare, but existant nonetheless) where the Continuity folks will take C-canon material over G-canon.  jSarek 23:12, 25 Oct 2005 (UTC)
 * It's true. For example, I'm still convinced that G-Canon states Boba Fett died in the Sarlaac Pit. If you listen to George on the RotJ commentary, he says that he considered adding a scene in which Boba later escaped, but he changed his mind... and instead we have the added animation of the Sarlaac biting down and eating Boba. Another example is "Greedo the Elder", who does not exist in G-Canon. According to George, that young rodian in the Phantom Menace deleted scenes is the same Greedo we know and love. -BaronGrackle 14:52, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Oh, and I almost forgot about the "Ki-Adi-Mundi was on the Jedi Council before being a Jedi Master" thing. Did we decide the C-Canon trumped Anakin's G-Canon hissy-fit about that, or not? -BaronGrackle 14:58, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Title
Is it necessary for this to be titled "Star Wars canon?" I think on a Star Wars Wikicity it's pretty obvious what kind of canon we're talking about. MarcK 02:45, 31 Oct 2005 (UTC)
 * You have a point. -- Riffsyphon1024 03:55, 31 Oct 2005 (UTC)
 * So should we move it? Adamwankenobi Talk to me! My home. 01:27, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Roleplays
Do you consider RPs to be canon? I kind of do. Any comments are welcome. --Jeedai123 22:57, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Most RPG material is canon. Things that are not canon include player characters and ships, example items from gameplay instuctions, and anything that is contradicted by a higher source. For things like starship classes or equipment, RPGs can be as valuable as the Essential Guides.
 * MMORPGs like Star Wars: Galaxies are a bit of a greyer area. Non-random NPCs are canon unless they contradict print sources, as are ships and items and animals and other officially-created assets. Anything caused by player actions is not part of the larger canon, nor are randomly generated NPCs. For example, things like the Border-Legion are NOT canon, no matter how many users are associated with them.
 * But in general, role-playing material created by a licensed publisher is part of canon. &mdash;Darth Culator   (talk)  23:20, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Films
When the article says that the "films" are G-canon, I'm assuming this only applies to the six theatrically released feature films, right? What level of canon are the other Star Wars films: the Ewok movies, the Holiday Special, the Ewoks and Droids cartoons, the Clone Wars cartoons. . . . This stuff G- or C-canon? — SavageBob 18:40, 20 March 2006 (UTC) That was the source of my confusion! I've tried to clarify things a bit. — SavageBob 14:49, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, as you suspected, the Ewok movies, the Holiday Special, and the cartoons are all Expanded Universe C-canon. (When you think about it, considering the Ewok movies were filmed with actual film while Episode III used digital cameras, "film" is a misleading name!) &mdash;Silly Dan (talk) 22:34, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
 * It's odd in a way that the three television films are not G-canon though, as they are based on original stories written by Lucas. And especially with the Ewok films, where he wrote the story, executive produced, and had a small uncredited role in directing. Sounds similar to the situation with ESB and ROTJ doesn't it? ;) Adamwankenobi 04:35, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I think you're all confusing the official canon system with the internal Holocron system (meant for continuity checkers, primarily). If Lucas had a hand in something, then the part he came up with is G-canon, but if it's not in one of the six films, then it's part of the Expanded Universe. Even the TV-series he's involved in will be EU, no matter how much G-canon is added to them. That's how the rules are. VT-16 00:23, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks for clearing that up. Adamwankenobi 03:37, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Nick Gillard
Where would he fall in the canon list? --206.131.12.154 18:25, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Cin Drallig is G-canon, as obviated by his appearance in RotS. Nick himself doesn't fall under the auspices of canon classification, as he is from the real world and therefore not in the Star Wars Universe. Dangerdan97 11:13, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

What sort of cannon are Incredible Cross Sections?
The following two publications are listed as sources for this article: The Phantom Menace Incredible Cross Sections Attack of the Clones Incredible Cross Sections

However, I can't see any specific references to them them. I realise that they definately are not G-cannon. Are they supposed to be C-cannon or S-cannon?

David Shepheard 05:46, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

What is G and C cannon?
Does anyone actually know what the letters "G" and "C" in G-cannon and C-cannon stand for?

Is the "G" for "George" - meaning it comes from George Lucas?

Does the "C" just mean "cannon"?

The article should really explain this.

David Shepheard 05:46, 30 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes, AFAIK G is for George. As for C, I am not sure, but I thought it is for 'common' MoffRebus 12:25, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

toyline, what canon is it?
This impacts another article. Can someone let me know what level of canon the action figures fit into? I say they are C canon. They don't contradict anything so I don't see why not. Specifically, I am referring to the Boba Fett titanium figure mentioned in the Boba Fett BTS section. I included the info sometime ago but said it was canon. I noticed it has been changed to say otherwise but I figured we should figure out how canon it is before I change it. I had originally said this could be considered the first canon appearance of adult Boba w/out his helmet on because the Tales story is N-Canon. Thanks.--DannyBoy7783 21:51, 9 July 2006 (UTC) We either need more discussion or someone (perhaps an admin?) to weigh in and decide what is to be done here.--DannyBoy7783 02:12, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
 * If we can't definitively say which it is can we add it with the disclaimer of some kind. Perhaps something to the effect of it not being 100% official but agreed upon here by wookieepedians?--DannyBoy7783 21:54, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I think that we shouldn't include toys as canon. Think about it: Toys aren't meant to be canon&mdash;they're meant to be either something for people to play with or collectables. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 21:57, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, you could say the same for games, and they're canon. I think that there must be at some low level of canon, though some aspects clearly meant solely for play don't count (much like the way Revan and his companions did not really have the ability to slowly regenerate all of their injuries just by standing still for a few minutes, and Kyle Katarn couldn't really hold all of those guns in his pocket.) &mdash;Silly Dan (talk) 22:05, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I know you don't like the figures and stuff Jack. We've discussed this before...but Silly Dan makes a good point about the video games. I think if we ignore the "play factors" of collectibles and consider them on their story elements they are perfectly fine as some form of canon. I guess I view this fundamentally different than jack does. I see collectibles as a possible expansion of the story in some instances when the toys are relevant to what's going on. I think Jack sees them as nothing more than plastic representations of the canon. All things being equal, why not include them? It's not like they would over turn wookieepedia. A few pictures of figures have already been included in some articles already...--DannyBoy7783 22:20, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
 * If no one has anything else to say I'm going to add it into the canon until we hear otherwise and then I'm going to go edit the caption for the action figure at Boba Fett--DannyBoy7783 01:46, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
 * So long as it's clear the Star Wars Transformers are completely non-canon.... 8) &mdash;Silly Dan (talk) 02:06, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I think it depends. Most toys are probably S-Canon, but some (the aforementioned Transformers, for instance) can't be anything but N-canon.  Sometimes, toys are brought into C-canon through other sources (the recent Monster droid appearance in The New Essential Guide to Droids, for instance), but I don't think any toys automatically start there. jSarek 02:26, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Haha, as soon as I start threatening to add things people chime in :)  I think that very rarely this will ever be an issue when writing an article but there may be occasions when the toys can enhance what is already there, such as the Fett titanium figure. Obviously Mr Potato Head was never a sith lord. I think we can agree on that. Nor was he a stormtrooper or an astromech droid. --DannyBoy7783 03:20, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
 * *ahem* :D--DannyBoy7783 03:21, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
 * You might want to just ask on the official site boards. We admins don't set canon (who'd want that job?  8) ) &mdash;Silly Dan (talk) 03:26, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Canon levels
Each ascending level overrides the lower ones. Does this statement only refer to cases where C-canon and S-canon are overidden by G-canon in the sense of contradiction? Or does this also mean that G-canon counts as the "real" Star Wars, and fans can discard every other level if they so choose? "Absolute canon" is ambiguous, as it can mean "pure canon." --Shon Kon Ray 06:05, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
 * It's mostly a matter of overriding contradictions. On a fundamental level, the GCSN system isn't designed to be some sort of overarching hierarchical system.  It's just how the Holocron keeps track of where each element comes from.  Contradictions are dealt with on a case-by-case basis, normally with "higher" canon winning . . . but not always (See "Canon Not So Clean-Cut," above).  Because it's fiction, it's up to every fan to choose what, if anything, they wish to discard; but the official line is, it's all canon. jSarek 07:30, 31 July 2006 (UTC)


 * "There are two worlds here," explained Lucas. "There’s my world, which is the movies, and there’s this other world that has been created, which I say is the parallel universe – the licensing world of the books, games and comic books. I don't read that stuff. I haven't read any of the novels. I don't know anything about that world. That's a different world than my world. When I said [other people] could make their own Star Wars stories, we decided that, like Star Trek, we would have two universes: My universe and then this other one. They try to make their universe as consistent with mine as possible, but obviously they get enthusiastic and want to go off in other directions."


 * But


 * "On the other hand, the quote ... makes it sound like the EU is separate from George's vision of the Star Wars universe. It is not. The EU must follow certain tenets set by George through the films and other guidelines that he provides outside of the films." &mdash; Leland Chee


 * Though


 * "When it comes to absolute canon, the real story of Star Wars, you must turn to the films themselves &mdash; and only the films. The further one branches away from the movies, the more interpretation and speculation come into play. The analogy is that every piece of published Star Wars fiction is a window into the 'real' Star Wars universe. Some windows are a bit foggier than others. Some are decidedly abstract. But each contains a nugget of truth to them." &mdash; Steve Sansweet (director of fan relations) and Chris Cerasi (an editor for Lucas Books at the time)

The words of Lucas are the most authoritative and support the idea that the films are the real Star Wars. --Shon Kon Ray 04:33, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Lucas is notoriously fickle, and there have been many different interpretations of those words, as you have seen. If you choose not to believe the EU is part of the real SW story, that's your choice, but it's not the position that Lucasfilm has taken, regardless of what Lucas might have said while interviewed. jSarek 10:03, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Lucas said there are "two worlds" in both Cinescape and Starlog magazines in 2001 and 2005, respectively; that doesn't seem fickle.


 * Does LucasFilm Ltd. itself actually have a Canon Policy?
 * No. I'm not exactly sure what the existence of such a thing would actually mean. Beyond the merchandise and online, I don't see how or where it would be applied. It's not like there's a document that exists that says "these are the things that are canon" that everyone in the company can look at.


 * If Greedo can shoot first and an old Anakin ghost can be replaced with a young Anakin ghost, then there's always room for things to change. &mdash; Leland Chee

--Shon Kon Ray 21:08, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Misleading
George Lucas, described as the "undisputed creator of Star Wars" in Star Wars: The Ultimate Visual Guide, has stated at least on two separate occasions that he considers the Expanded Universe a parallel universe to his films. He even compared the issue of Star Wars canon to that of Star Trek canon, wherein the films and television series by Gene Roddenberry are canonical and works by other authors are not. The Holocron continuity database is used for merchandising and other concerns, not as a canon policy. --Shon Kon Ray 20:34, 5 August 2006 (UTC) It is inconsequential whether Supershadow is right or wrong on this issue. Don't associate me with a liar. --Shon Kon Ray 20:45, 5 August 2006 (UTC) In July 2001, Lucas gave his opinion on the matter of what is canon in Star Wars during an interview with Cinescape magazine:
 * Congratulations, Shon Kon Ray. You just made Supershadow right. -- SFH 20:41, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
 * OK then, let's take a look at what Star Trek actually canon consists of&mdash;five TV series and ten films. But hold on a second, Roddenberry only created TOS, TNG, and the first six films. Doees that mean Paramount doesn't consider the other shows and films canon? Nope. Adamwankenobi 20:54, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
 * No offense was intended. I just wanted to make sure that Suttle wasn't the source for the what you said. Speaking of which, what are your sources? -- SFH 20:55, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
 * ''"There are two worlds here," explained Lucas. "There’s my world, which is the movies, and there’s this other world that has been created, which I say is the parallel universe – the licensing world of the books, games and comic books. They don’t intrude on my world, which is a select period of time, [but] they do intrude in between the movies. I don’t get too involved in the parallel universe."

Further, in an August 2005 interview in Starlog magazine:
 * STARLOG: "The Star Wars'' Universe is so large and diverse.  Do you ever find yourself confused by the subsidiary material that's in the novels, comics, and other offshoots?"


 * LUCAS: "I don't read that stuff.  I haven't read any of the novels.  I don't know anything about that world.  That's a different world than my world.  But I do try to keep it consistent.  The way I do it now is they have a Star Wars Encyclopedia.  So if I come up with a name or something else, I look it up and see if it has already been used.  When I said [other people] could make their own Star Wars stories, we decided that, like Star Trek'', we would have two universes: My universe and then this other one.  They try to make their universe as consistent with mine as possible, but obviously they get enthusiastic and want to go off in other directions."

Note that I like the Expanded Universe, and I'm just reporting Lucas' views on canon. --Shon Kon Ray 21:01, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
 * OK, thanks for the quotes. I'll believe that Lucas considers the EU to be parallel to his Star Wars (which is why he felt free to contradict them in the prequels, and why we have a canon hierarchy), but I wouldn't want to do something like remove or segregate all the EU info from this site in response. &mdash;Silly Dan (talk) 21:03, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

An aside to Adamwankenobi: Gene Roddenberry, as creator of Star Trek, has deemed what is canon, that is, the six shows and ten films. --Shon Kon Ray 21:07, 5 August 2006 (UTC) It is insignificant that the quotes are "old news." The idea of "two worlds" or "two universes" mentioned in interviews four years apart isn't so informal. The Expanded Universe intruding between his select periods of time does not suggest that it is canonical. Further, Leland Chee is not as authoritative a source as Lucas. --Shon Kon Ray 23:30, 5 August 2006 (UTC) When I said [other people] could make their own Star Wars stories, we decided that, like Star Trek'', we would have two universes: My universe and then this other one. They try to make their universe as consistent with mine as possible, but obviously they get enthusiastic and want to go off in other directions.'' He's speaking about canon, not "his" story. --Shon Kon Ray 23:42, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
 * We should also take into account the fact that Lucas has used many elements from the EU in the films (notably, Aayla Secura, the Outrider, ASP-series droids, and Quinlan Vos's name) and it could be argued that he's even borrowed some ideas from it (Dark Empire, of which Lucas is a self-confessed fan, seems to have a number of parallels with RotS) - Kwenn 21:10, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
 * That already disproves the quotes above that he doesn't get involved with the EU. It has also been consistently said that Lucas was involved with the overall decision making process during the NJO. So Lucas is a liar, or something is going on. -- SFH 21:12, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
 * The truth probably lies somewhere in between the stereotypical movie purist assertion that Lucas has nothing whatsoever to do with the EU and the stereotypical newbie fan belief that he's personally and intimately involved with it at every level. &mdash;Silly Dan (talk) 21:15, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Actually, it doesn't seem likely that Lucas would concern himself with the Expanded Universe, being involved in various projects with the films throughout the years. Lucas is not restricted by the Expanded Universe, and his inclusion of certain elements from it does not affect canonicity. --68.224.247.234 22:56, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Those quotes are old news, and don't say that Lucas doesn't consider the EU canon. Yes, he uses the term "parallel universe," but from actually reading the quote it looks like he's speaking informally. Notice that he says that his "universe" is just a select period of time, and that the so-called "parallel universe" DOES intrude between his select periods of time. Furthermore, Leland Chee has stated in the StarWars.com forums that while the Starlog quote makes it sound like Lucas doesn't consider the EU to be part of his vision, that's not the way things are.JimRaynor55 23:20, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
 * If you look at his quotes, and knowing his personality, what he really seems to mean is that he doesn't consider the EU part of his story. And why should he? As an analogy, can you imagine if Matthew Stover claimed that Heir to the Empire was part of his stories? See what I mean? From Lucas' quotes, although he doesn't consider the EU part of his story, he looks at it as part of the overall Star Wars story, as evidenced in his comments in his 1996 introduction to Splinter of the Mind's Eye. Adamwankenobi 23:37, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
 * OK, in that case, let's take a look at which canon this site follows. There are two canons this way. Do we follow Lucas' film canon, or Lucas Licensing's "the films and everything not contradicting the films" canon? Well, this would be a pretty dry place without the EU, so we go with the second one. :) For instance, would you rather have "Master Vos was a Jedi Master", or the contents of the Quinlan Vos article? Adamwankenobi 23:45, 5 August 2006 (UTC)