Talk:Venator-class Star Destroyer/Legends

Need some stats on engines etc. anyone got the ICS for ROTS? VT-16 08:52, 29 May 2005 (UTC)
 * The ROTS ICS states that the acceleration is 3,000G. JimRaynor55 17:01, 29 May 2005 (UTC)

In ROTS there was an interior shot of a Venator-class that showed a battery of large projectile guns that fired huge shells. Any indication what those were? --SparqMan 18:00, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Is the "thousand VenStars at Cour." thing actually established as more than fanon? And shouldn't we mention the Leviathan and Ravager as prototypes up the top? --McEwok 19:18, 15 Aug 2005 (UTC)

How can completely different ships that existed thousands of years ago be prototypes for the Venator-class? JimRaynor55 23:22, 16 Aug 2005 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I don't think they developed prototypes for the Venator-class Star Destroyer back in the time when KOTOR took place. Sure, the concept would evolve into the idea of Star Destroyers thousands of years after the construction of the Leviathan. Cmdr. J. Nebulax 23:53, 16 Aug 2005 (UTC)

Battle of Rendili
This article claims that the Sundiver, Triumph, and Doneeta are Venator-class Star Destroyers. The CUSWE says that they're Acclamator-class transports. Which one is correct? JimRaynor55 09:17, 21 Aug 2005 (UTC)
 * The battle is depicted in the 'Dreadnaughts of Rendili' Republic arc. The warships are definately Acclamators - Kwenn

Venators and GCW
Ok it says venators were used in GCw but theres no sign of them so we can't say they were used intill proof they can have all been broken down or maybe sold or melted down for resources. Anyway it sounds like a venator fan wrote the last part.
 * It's already been decided. Admiral J. Nebulax 12:41, 24 Dec 2005 (UTC)
 * Sadly, they were cut out of Empire at War just a few weeks ago. You can still see screenshots of them from recent previews, but would this count as an appearance or not?


 * The developers said they took it out because of game mechanics. They couldn't find a way to balance it with rebel craft or something, which imho is stupid, as they could just have made it into a fully-fledged carrier-unit, matched it up with a rebel carrier and had them both be more vulnerable to enemy fire than the Victory-class and the Imperial-class (which is what the devs said to begin with, that it was "outdated tech" and would be easier to destroy).


 * Now, would screenshots in a magazine constitute an official source, if coupled with the fact that they didn't take it out because of contradiction with SW history, but because of balancing issues in the game (which had nothing to do with "RL" SW, as the Empire always had an advantage of size and strength and kept millions of different ship-designs in their forces.)


 * This should be good. :3 VT-16 14:21, 11 Jan 2006 (UTC)


 * I'd say that Empire at War wouldn't be an appearance, because they didn't appear in the game. Admiral J. Nebulax 14:33, 11 Jan 2006 (UTC)
 * I wasn't talking about having the game as an appearance, but the game magazines that printed the pictures, where Venators were seen. I'd did write that any GCW sources were "sketchy at best", maybe that should be enough? Since the reason for it getting cut wasn't that it didn't fit in with the GCW-era Empire, it was just a manner of game mechanics not working out. VT-16 15:13, 11 Jan 2006 (UTC)
 * Oh. Admiral J. Nebulax 18:01, 11 Jan 2006 (UTC)
 * Maybe they'll be in the EAW expansion pack, which we all know is going to happen anyways. But my question is: that image from DE really looks nothing at all like a Venator, and is there any reason why it's here? Kuralyov 18:29, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
 * The front half of that DE ship has a vague resemblance to a whole Venator, but the rear half makes it completely different. This isn't close enough of a resemblance to bear mention in the Venator article IMO, and it's quite a stretch to suggest that it's a modified Venator. I think it should be removed. JimRaynor55 19:11, 18 January 2006 (UTC)


 * The Venator is in Empire at War - you just have to unlock it. All the coding is there. I have physically fought with a Venator on the demo. --Naylor182 00:00, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Interesting. But don't post comments in the middle of a discussion. Admiral J. Nebulax 00:27, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
 * The problem is, the demo could have been made before the Venator was axed. I don't know how demos rank on the canon-scale, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's not high. VT-16 09:04, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
 * I'd say keep it out of the article, except for the Behind the Scenes section. Admiral J. Nebulax 21:29, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Isn't the policy that cut material is not canon?--Lord Zack 15:53, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
 * It depends. Admiral J. Nebulax 20:18, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
 * The problem was slightly confounded by the developers' own statements. First they announced to the community that the Venator was part of the game, then they put it up on the official site, then they took it down again. And they explained that the Venator was taken out, not because it didn't fit in with the GCW-era, but because of "balancing issues". I guess that means they couldn't find a Rebel ship to be its equivilant (even though they had it available for both factions in multiplayer, which would have solved the problem automatically). So the reason it got taken out was not due to any conflicts with continuity, but because of game-mechanics. I guess as statement like this could fit in the BtS section. VT-16 12:34, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
 * So, it wouldn't be an appearance at all. Admiral J. Nebulax 20:36, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Why did they leave it out of the main game anyway? They could have easily solved the problem by giving the Venator to the Rebels, since they thought that the Empire was too overpowered. That was a completely stupid idea. Wouldn't the Rebellion eat up the Venator-Class Star Destroyers until the MC80's came into service? I meant the Rebellion would probably want them, for their starfighter capacity. With such a craft, space superiority with the Rebellion's X-Wings, Y-Wings, and A-Wings would almost be assured. Except from Defectors that had those types of ships in their disposal I suppose.
 * I could have sworn I saw the Venator in television commercials for "Empire at War", although if they aren't in the finished game, i suppose it doesn't count, but it seems strange that they would advertise something not in the game. Perhaps they are not controllable by the player, but merely appear in cutscenes. --143.229.1.17 19:30, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
 * The commercials were probably made before they took it out of the game. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 21:01, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, apparently they felt that the Venators weren't needed. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 00:51, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, that's your point of view. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 20:14, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
 * What do you mean? If you're saying that the Rebellion would have Venators before they got Mon Calamari cruisers, no, because the Empire would still be using them, although they would mainly have been replaced by Imperials. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 16:30, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Er, in theory, the Rebels would want any dedicated warships they could get.--Guy Ruffian 21:45, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Exactly. Anyway, I doubt the Rebels would be buying warships from the Empire. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 22:10, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
 * What about stealing? ;)
 * I don't think they would try that. They probably never got close to having a Venator. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 22:19, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
 * The odds of an entire crew defecting in the limited time that Venators were in active Imperial service somehow strike me as very, very slim. --Guy Ruffian 12:20, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Exactly. There's no way that an entire crew of a Star Destroyer would decide to defect. Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 12:22, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't say that there's no chance at all, especially in a space opera adventure setting like Star Wars, but it strikes me as unlikely enough that we can safely assume it didn't happen unless explicitly informed otherwise. from a trusted (i.e. official) source. --Guy Ruffian 17:04, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, unless a bunch of Rebels boarded on and took it over, it's very unlikely. Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 17:18, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, since the Venators were going to be available to both factions (in Multiplayer, at least), that would have proven some were stolen. ;) VT-16 19:55, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, "were" is the key word there. Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 20:04, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Hey, it happened with a whole lot of Nebulon-B frigates. It could happen with a Venator, too.  And about the canonicity, I think it's canon.  The reason is that Leland Chee has said on many occasions that content goes into the Holocron well before products are released and stays there, even if it's cut for constraint or mechanics reasons.  If the Venator model made it into the game files, it's almost certain that the Holocron mentions its appearance.  --Thetoastman 20:08, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
 * If that happens, I don't think we should count it as an appearance. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 22:08, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Fuel Consumption
The page says a Venator can burn 40,000 tons of fuel per second. Without knowing the weight of the fuel, if we assume it is super dense and a litre weighs a ton, a Venator would burn 40,000 Litres per second. Since a litre is 10 cubic CM, that's 4,000 cubic Metres per second. The Venator is 1,137 meters long, 548 meters wide, and 268 meters high including the bridge. If we assume the majority of the hull is 1/3 of that, it's 89m high. Therefore a Venator, at most, has 55,453,764 Million Cubic Metres of space. If we say the entire hull is dedicated to fuel, then the Venator has a grand total of 23.1 Minutes of fuel. Surely Venator's were deployed for more than 23 minutes at a time?

You might want to contest what I'm saying, but let's analyse this:

- 40,000 tons of Fuel that has an unknown weight, if we assume that a litre weighs a ton (IE it's 1000 times heavier than water), and some assumptions must be made, unless someone can show me what Fuel in Star Wars weighs, then 40,000 tons occupies 4,000 Cubic Metres.

- The largest dimensions of a Venator are known, so if a Venator were a rectangular prism we'd know its volume, however it isn't, so I assume, by trimming off some height, perhaps a little too much which is more than compensated for by the maximum of the other two dimensions being used, that the volume is 55,453,764 Cubic Metres.

- By statement one, a minute's fuel occupies 2,400,000 Cubic metres. Therefore 23.1 minutes fuel occupies 55,440,000 Cubic Metres, roughly the Venator's entire capacity. This is assuming the entire ship is devoted to fuel, which clearly it isn't.

So, basically, that figure is insanely over the top. Even if you decrease the consumption by half, by whatever justification, it's still only 46.2 minutes. Even if you then double the capacity, you only get 46.2 Hours (My working out on that one might be wrong; I doubled the Venator Volume, then divided it by half the consumption per second and then divided it by sixty for the number of minutes and sixty again for the number of hours, this is correct?) the Venator has supplies for 2 years, ie 2,515,968,000,000 tons of fuel, which, if we use my first statement's assumption, would occupy 251,596,800,000 Cubic Metres, 251,596,800 Cubic Kilometres. The USA is 9,631,418Km squared (So not in height), so a Venator would need to carry 26122.5 times the size the USA, Cubed, the Earth has 510,065,284.702 km square area. So a Venator would carry enough fuel to cover the earth (Assuming it were flat over sea level, of course) to a height of 125,798,400 km, if the fuel were 1000x the weight of water.

This seems just a tad unreal to me.
 * They invented hypermatter specifically to explain this. Starships can carry fuel equivalent to the mass of a moon without nasty gravitational side-effects. &mdash;Darth Culator   (talk)  14:40, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry but that's makes no sense - we've gone from fuel that's amazingly dense to fuel that is essentially anti-matter and for some reason moves faster than the speed of light. It still doesn't fix the volume problem... (Note, I think I dropped a zero in my calculations above somewhere, but all the same, the figures would similar)
 * A wizard did it. Seriously, I'm not the astrophysicist who came up with it, so it doesn't necessarily make a lot of sense to me either. But somebody at Lucas Licensing OK'ed it, so it's canon. &mdash;Darth Culator   (talk)  14:56, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

":|" I mean it's just, as a kid I loved Star Wars, but even at a very young age the gaping holes in continuity were obvious. Most of it could be fixed by George Lucas simply giving a flying over what is and isn't given the thumbs up; he's turned his universe into something of a whore, it sells itself for money. He's a sci-fi pimp.

And when I saw this, I decided to do the calculations and they make no sense. Then (I know that you're trying to help) I'm directed to a page that made me think, if I may quote Futurama's Hermes Conrad "BUT THAT JUST RAISES MORE QUESTIONS!", because it doesn't explain in any way how the matter could be super-dense, if anything it tries to confuse people with bullshit, all it really does is use technical terms that mean it's essentially anti-matter that's moving faster than the speed of light... and this stuff's supposed to be in a fuel tank of things across the Galaxy? I mean, stuff Exxon Valdez, this stuff has the potential to wipe out a planet if it's not magically stopped from doing that (which is also unexplained).

It's like "Okay, you got me, that's not possible... until I babble at you in jargon so you give up!" I mean I know a little of Quantum Physics and all that crazy stuff but not ever have I heard of Hypermatter outside Sci-Fi. I just don't get it. At least can someone explain why Hypermatter helps, how it is utilised if it's moving faster than light speed and why it isn't annihalating the Universe?
 * "Okay, you got me, that's not possible... until I babble at you in jargon so you give up!" -- Honestly, I think it's exactly like that. The power requirement for destroying a planet was so fantastic that something needed to be said about it, and that's what they came up with. There are relatively few examples of genuine technobabble/handwavium in Star Wars, so this one doesn't bother me that much. I know just enough about physics to sound especially stupid when an actual physics guy joins the party, but there are places you can go where they may be able to explain in more detail, like Stardestroyer.net or the Jedi Council Forums. &mdash;Darth Culator   (talk)  15:37, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, I'll look into that, sorry to use the discussion area somewhat like an IM, but this bothered me. I know that Star Wars has a lot of bable that's meaningless, usually I don't mind too much, sometimes there's actual physics of some form under it, what gets me is that anyone can read just enough to see that quantum physics for example might hold the answers to FTL travel et cetra. I like Star Wars and Star Gate and some other Sci Fi, even though modern science shows that the odds of one planet like Earth are something riddiculous like 146 10x137 (That's 146 followed by 137 zeroes) which I'm told is higher than the odds that either of us will be killed by a sudden reversal of the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics (though I'm not sure how a reversal of Entrophy would kill someone), but the point is that having even just two planets capable of sustaining intelligent life is virtually impossible (although later Terra-forming by later intelligent life might be possible on some planets) and yet there's supposed to be millions in the Star Wars Universe. And that I can somehow ignore, but the concept of such massive consumption of fuel bothers me a lot, so I asked here and you pointed out that Hypermatter stuff that's just jargon which make the whole connundrum worse.

Anyway, thanks again, I'll look into that. EDIT: Having looked at the wiki-article for hypermatter, they say it burns the equivilant of 40 000 tons of matter per second, not actually 40 000 tons of matter per second. I think that's the difference, that hypermatter of lesser weight expounds as much energy per second as 40 000 tons of ordinary matter. VT-16 11:37, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
 * "...sorry to use the discussion area somewhat like an IM...". Hey, you're not the first. ;) Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 20:22, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Not having read up on the subject, the name "Hypermatter" seems to imply a connection with "Hyperspace". Is that used as some sort of explanation? Either matter scavanged/syphoned from the hyperspace dimension or stored in some sort of pocket-universe? (With the engines of a ship being like the Tardis of Doctor Who, greater on the inside than the outside.) VT-16 11:28, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
 * That sounds good. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 22:05, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

I was on the verge of taking the stance that, once again, the folks on the inside (those that get to create that which we debate about... Curtis Saxton is one of the rare ones that got to cross over from the outside to the inside) overdosed on some wierd acid and just made some outrageous numbers up, but then I read over some of your previous stuff here (multiple people), and realized &mdash; just because it states that it can burn an obscene amount of fuel per second does not mean that it does so all the time! Think of it like an afterburner on a jet fighter, or the reactor on a submarine, where it is capable of dumping X (large number) pounds of fuel per second to achieve this speed, or of going to 105% on the reactor to achieve this speed, but for most normal operations, it's doing so at a scaled back consumption amount. Perhaps the Venator is operating at 30% consumption while in common orbit of a planet, or cruising on patrol, and then works up to 50-60% consumption when in battle, going to full "turbo-afterburner-gonzo-boost" 100% consumption when doing something immensely tasking, such as heavy bombardment, or hyperspace jump (I'm using it as an example, don't know for certain). -- Hawke / Rtufo 14:25, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Perhaps... But what's with the different font color? Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 20:08, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
 * We've had this discussion over and over again. Hypermatter is not ordinary matter. It was invented to show how a big starship can expend massive amounts of fuel without needing a huge volume to contain it. VT-16 16:53, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
 * To those who disagree with canon figures: Canon is canon, whether you like it or not. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 18:48, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Further on that point, I reccomend people consider doing math instead of making wild assumptions. I've had discussions with Dr. Saxton and contributed to his power page due to my training in the field.  The fuel numbers as presented are entirely workable, the thing carries enough fuel for about 4 hours of peak reactor ops.  After 4 hours of getting hit by the main guns, there is going to be nothing left, so you don't need that much power.  Hypermatter does nto have to be special fuel, it just has to be regualr fuel stored at high densities, similar to those found in the cores of gas giants and brown dwarfs.  Lowkey 00:59, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
 * So you're like a junior Dr. Saxton? Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) (Data file) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 13:58, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Just someone who does sufficient research and has the appropriate schooling to know what they are talking about. Lowkey 12:45, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Ah, I see. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) (Data file) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 12:52, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
 * So, basically, most capital ships never operate on peak conditions unless it's an extreme situation, to keep going for a much longer time? And afterwards they fill up in a station? That explains the existence of tankers and refueling procedures in SW (like what the X-wings in ANH do before the battle). VT-16 21:35, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Main reactor can burn 40k tons of fuel per second? riiiiight.....
I removed the line that said this, this was either a typo here or where the submitter found it, or a lie/trolling. 40k tons of fuel per second is like 1/8 of what the our sun burns, this massive amount would fuel several 2nd Death Stars at max hyperspace velocity. Someone please, find out what the true value for this is.
 * That's the number that's in print, and it's consistent with the other numbers in the same book. If you don't like it, go whine to DK Publishing or Lucas Licensing, don't go altering facts to fit your opinion. &mdash;Darth Culator   (talk)  15:55, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Don't remove stuff like that again. It's canon. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 20:27, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Canon only in the ICS, not supported by other sources.
 * ICS is canon, and other sources don't cover the subject. You have no grounds for questioning this number. JimRaynor55 20:03, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's not canon. Live with it. - Darth Culator 20:59, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Well said, Darth Culator. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 21:41, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
 * But I think his point was that that's not physically possible. Are we really supposed to believe it burns twice as much fuel as its entire cargo capacity every second?  The thing's not even big enough to hold the fuel it would take to run for a few seconds, let alone jump to lightspeed.  --Thetoastman 20:03, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, canon says so. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 20:05, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Have you people even read the book? It says "40k tons of hypermatter fuel". Hypermatter is not the same as matter. VT-16 16:43, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Semantic Concern Re: Fighter Capacity
I'm submitting a minor edit in the section regarding fighter complement. Currently, it says that the ship "could support 420 fighters in its bays altogether". I'm fairly certain that all published, official sources say that's what it did support as its regular complement, and doesn't mention if that's the maximum capacity. (In fact, I'd assume that the maximum capacity was higher, if only because it's senseless to force yourself to use all of a resource, i.e. fighter berthing space, as part of regular operation; it would leave no easy alternative if something went amiss. Then again, that's military spending and design for you...)

Until we have confirmation either way, I'm going to render the language a bit more ambiguous as to total capacity, leaving the definitive wording only for the standard complement.--216.83.103.138 15:39, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I personally think that it was fine before your edit, but oh well. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 15:56, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Just wondering why you changed the qualifiers for the period in which it carried the specified complement; it really strikes me as worthwhile clarification. For instance, I pretty strongly doubt that whatever Venators the Empire used still carried any Jedi starfighters--and actually would assume that they outfitted them to carry TIEs at some point, but that's just speculation. It makes sense to me, though, that instead of buying more Clone-era starfighters, they's use their TIEs, a cheaper alternative that more of their pilots specifically trained to fly. Again, that's just pure fan-speculation.--216.83.103.138 16:23, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, when you had "late Republic", it made it sound like it had existed before the end of the Republic. It just didn't sound right. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 16:29, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Ah, swell. If you don't mind, I'll re-edit with an attempt at greater clarity.--216.83.103.138 16:35, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I have no problem with that. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 16:38, 5 April 2006 (UTC)