Talk:Form III/Legends

Grievous pic
Should the picture of General Grievous in this article? Even though Ob-Wan fought Grievous with Soresu he ultimately killed him with a blaster, and this picture doesn't show Obi-Wan actually fighting the crazy blender-o-doom.--TheLIGHTSABERwieldingNERFHERDER 08:23, 5 Dec 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, a picture of Grievious fighting Obi-Wan would have been better. Darth Niggie 10:40, 5 Dec 2005
 * Done. --Master Starkeiller 19:46, 5 Dec 2005 (UTC)

Biased and Obi-Wan heavy

 * This article seems pretty biased in concern with Form III since it doesn't seem to point out the flaws of the lightsaber form, and it seems ALL forms have some kind of flaw. It also makes a bold and unsupported statements about Obi-Wan, who was a Soresu master, in saying he could have beaten any lightsaber form and master since he was incapacitated by Count Dooku twice during a fight (with Anakin helping no less).--TheLIGHTSABERwieldingNERFHERDER 17:03, 1 Dec 2005 (UTC)
 * Well, the article could be correct about it being flawless, but since it doesn't list source its pretty hard to call. Geekmasterflash 17:06, 1 Dec 2005 (UTC)


 * It's hard for me to agree with it being "flawless". It would depend on one's point of view, but even the Jedi were not so passive as to believe you can win every battle by not losing. I always thought that was the most complex and deepest thing about Obi-Wan since he's very intuned with this From. You can easily miss the window of opportunity by being too passive, just like you can really mess things up by being too eager. I though I'd at least mention that.--TheLIGHTSABERwieldingNERFHERDER 19:17, 1 Dec 2005 (UTC)

I agree that its a pretty bold statement to say that Obi-Wan could defeat anyone, but I don't believe its correct to assume that Soresu is flawed because it emphasizes defense. The other forms may be considered more "powerful" or "deadly" in terms of combat, but there is nothing wrong with a combat style that keeps you alive better than the others.

Also the first time Obi-Wan and Anakin faced Count Dooku they were both soundly defeated because Obi-Wan had not perfected Soresu yet, and Anakin was using Ataru and not Form V yet. The second time they met, Obi-Wan was knocked out by Count Dooku with a force push, he was not defeated in a lightsaber duel, up to that point according to the novelization Obi-Wan's Soresu form was more than a match for Count Dooku's Makshi.

I also disagree that Obi-Wan's Soresu is just for passive defense. Let's not forgot that he is chosen by the Jedi Council to locate and defeat General Grievous, because according to Master Windu he was "the Master" of Soresu and the best person suited to the task. A pretty big compliment considering that General Grievous had already battled such lightsaber masters as Shaak Ti, and Master Windu along with the countless other Jedi he has killed. So it would be a mistake to underestimate the effectiveness of Soresu and treat it as a form only used for defense.
 * The "he could propably beat anyone" part must be removed. The form might be sufficient, but there are great masters out there that could chop Obi-Wan to pieces effortlessly, like Palpatine, Yoda, Dooku, Mace. --Master Starkeiller 14:05, 4 Dec 2005 (UTC)


 * Once again this article seems biased. I agree that the defensive capabilites of Soresu can make a pracitioner almost invincible against blaster fire since that is why the form is stated to have evolved from. But if Obi-Wan is going to be used as the prime example of a Soresu user, then it should be noted what flaws the form has. Soresu isn't ment to be completely defensive, but we can't assume all Soresu users knew the exact momment when to press the atack when fighter another lightsaber wielding opponent. Obi-Wan was obviously not "invincible" because of his method in combat. He lost twice against Dooku and during his fight with Grievous, even though his Soresu mastery kept him alive, he lost his lightsaber and was forced to use a blaster to win. Needs some clean up to sound more informitive rather then biased.--TheLIGHTSABERwieldingNERFHERDER 21:22, 4 Dec 2005 (UTC)

-I think too many people are trying over analyze each lightsaber form. Trying to pick apart flaws and weaknesses to each style, but I think its important to understand and remember that Jedi chose his/her style based of their personality and personal style. No combat form is ever really better than another, regardless of how they go about accomplishing it, each style is based on the concept of some form of attack while maintaining proper defense.

In terms of combat when two fighters are dueling one is usually attacking while the other defends and vice versa, this can create an endless circle if we assume that both fighters are equally skilled in both defense and attack regardless of their style. Usually this doesn't happen because one fighter usually either makes an mistake, or is not physically as powerful or fast enought to keep up with the other fighter. Let's not also forgot in terms of this universe, your strength and knowledge of the force is just as important in Jedi combat as your skill with a lightsaber.

I think its better to describe the technical aspects of the fighting form than to try debate over which one is better, or to try an point the flaws in it. Despite Count Dooku's belief in the superiority of Makashi he is unable to use it to effectively defeat Yoda's Ataru, nor was he able to defeat Anakin Skywalker. Not due to the superiority of Ataru or Form V combat over Makashi, but because of Yoda's use of the force allowed him to move at amazing speeds, and Anakins strong connection with the force added that much more power to his attacks.

People aren't always defeated by another person because their style is inferior, sometimes they just can't match the physical power or speed at which the individual uses their style.

A Soresu user isn't invivcible, a Makashi user could defeat a Soresu user if they're blade manipulation was faster than their defensive velocity. A form V user could also overpower the defenses of a Soresu user also. It really comes down to how inviduals match up with each other. Though this article does seem biased towards Obi-Wan I do think it does a pretty good job at decribing the more technical methods and philosphy of Soresu. It would be difficult to try and decribe the technique without using Obi-Wan, as he is the only known practitioner of it that appears extensively in the movies or the comic books.


 * Well I'm not sure where this person was coming from, but I agree that the articles should just be informative. They should point out both strengths and flaws. But really just because the flaws are mentioned doesn't mean anyone is saying it's inferior. If anyone has anything to add to any of the Lightsaber Form articles I'd hope they remember to stay pertinant to the subject and not delve too much into perticuliar characters for too long.--TheLIGHTSABERwieldingNERFHERDER 23:49, 4 Dec 2005 (UTC)

I really doubt that Soresu was a huge part of Obi-Wan's technique during his first battle with Count Dooku. People might be assumming that since after Qui-Gon's death that Obi-Wan quickly switched to Soresu and became a master of it.

Looking at the novelization of Star Wars Episode III by Stover, I believe this to be incorrect. During their second encounter Count Dooku assumes that Kenobi is using Ataru, with its "silly acrobatics," in fact he plans his entire strategy of combat on that bases that Kenobi is an Ataru user. He constantly aims thrusts at the legs of Kenobi to get him to jump overhead, thus allowing him to stab Kenobi in the air. He soon realizes that Kenobi never moves, he stands his ground perfectly balanced, defending and counterattacking with great defensive velocity.

According to the book it soon dawns on Dooku that the Ataru tactics used earlier in the fight by Kenobi was a trick, that he had become "a master of Soresu." In fact in the novel Anakin also fools Dooku with a different technique before exposing his true form V combat style.

Even looking back on the movies in Episode II, you can notice that Kenobi quickly goes on the offensive in his duel with Dooku using wide swings, something that doesn't seem to follow the philosophy of Soresu.

From Dooku's assumption that Kenobi was a Ataru user (most likely from their last battle, and that Qui-Gon was his former master)in Episode III, to his surprise at Kenobi's Soresu technique, I think this is pretty good proof that Kenobi combat style still favored Ataru during there first encounter and it was not until years later that he mangaged to master Soresu. Darth Niggie


 * That's good observation. I was under the impression that since Obi-Wan had been recognized as a Soresu master that he would have been perfecting it over the decade between Episode I and II. It is difficult for me to completely believe that between the Battle of Geonosis and the Battle of Coruscant that he could have become the master of form III but if he was trying to mix two styles then after loosing to Dooku focused on just one it's more believable.--TheLIGHTSABERwieldingNERFHERDER 03:43, 5 Dec 2005 (UTC)


 * How could anyone master a lightsaber form in two years? Let's assume that Obi-Wan used Ataru against Dooku in EpII and he started learning it only after their defeat by him? I remember reading (here) and hearing about Obi-Wan switching to Soresu after he recognized the weakness of Ataru when his master died. This pretty much contradicts the novelization of Episode III. - TopAce 20:04, 4 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, Obi-Wan could have bested pretty much everyone if lightsaber forms is the only thing that matters in a duel. The form itself is flawless doesn't mean its masters or pratitioners are flawless. Compare to Mace, Yoda, Palpatine or Dooku, Obi-Wan isn't such a powerful Force user. Nor is he as experienced in different situations. --Darthless 02:20, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

doesn't feel right
I hope someone takes another crack at this article, it just doesn't feel right or correct. While the Ataru and the Makashi articles appears to do a good job explaining the technical aspects and the general philosophy of the fighting style, I still feel that this article can still be quite confusing. Some of the statements seem to be more like judements than actual details about the technique.

Though I like the attempted explanation on the strengths and weaknesses of Soresu, I find that towards the end of the article many assumptions were being made that didn't seem to reflect the technical aspects of Soresu. For example why would the fighting style be favorable up "until the Jedi Purge." If anything it would be more valuable, imagine how many Jedi Knights would survive the assault at the Jedi Temple or during the Order 66 if they had mastered Soresu. This would allow them to protect themselves against hordes of clone soldiers with their blasters and all, very much as how Kenobi defended himself against seemily endless blaster fire from hundreds of droid in the novel "Labrinyth of Evil." As mentioned in the article itself, Soresu lent it user a better chance to survive in combat whether it be against one or many enemies.

I also don't think its best to use the first defeat by Count Dooku against Obi-Wan as an example, since as I posted earlier I strongly believe his technique still strongly favors Ataru in their first battle. Even in their second battle Dooku knocks Kenobi unconcious not do to any mistake he made, but do to a powerful force move by Dooku.

I don't know, this article still doesn't seem to fully capture and explain Soresu. Does anyone else agree with me??? Or do you think I'm just be very anal.--Darth Niggie 2:22, 5 Dec 2005.


 * It's definatly a work in progress still for me. It's hard to construct an article well from the sources available on the subject. Also, the "until the Jedi Purge" statement should be "up until the time of the Jedi purge", meaning in the time between the wanning of the Clone Wars and the execution of Order 66 when the number of Jedi went from something like thousands to barely a handfull. Need to correct that later.--TheLIGHTSABERwieldingNERFHERDER 06:26, 6 Dec 2005 (UTC)

Concerning the "superior" nature of Soresu, if this is coming from the novelization of Ep. 3, where Windu complements Kenobi on his use of Soresu, I think the passage has been mis-interpreted. Windu was pointing out that he and Yoda had chosen their forms to make up for personal weaknesses or shortcomings: Vaapad to channel Windu's inner darkness and Ataru's acrobatics to compensate for Yoda's small size. Kenobi, on the other hand, did not have a personal weakness to diminish the strengths of Soresu. I don't recall any claims of Soresu's relative superiority in that source (although it may be somewhere else). --Darth Vindictus 17:31, 13 Oct 2006.

Comma in quote an error?
Should the second comma in the quote at the top of the page, in fact, be a full stop (period)? It would certainly make more sense that way.--Kev-La Ttolya 11:34, 4 July 2006
 * Yeah, I changed it. -LtNOWIS 11:29, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Source
What is the source for the "Other practictioners" section? I never recall that part mentioned in any of the other sources- such as Stass Allie's page. Atarumaster88 21:39, 24 July 2006 (UTC)


 * ive deleted it, i don't know where that came from, probs just some fanon Jedi Dude 21:41, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
 * The correct "Other practitioners" section, Luminara Unduli and Barriss Offee was from MedStar Duology, Cin Drallig was from Order 66: Destroy All Jedi. Darth Kevinmhk 02:21, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Starting position
Is everyone sure that the starting position for this form was with the fingers and the blade extended out? i always thought that was simply an individual preference of Obi-Wans. Surely not every Jedi who practices a form does it exactly alike?
 * Removed. Indeed it was speculation. Makashi, Shien & Ataru opening stances have text support in EP3 novel. Darth Kevinmhk 06:10, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Wrong Word
"it embraced a passive way of life and a literal expression of the Jedi's tenement to defend rather than attack."

"Tenement" is a rental property or apartment building, usually implying one that is run-down or in poor repair. I assume this was supposed to be "tenet" - a principle or doctrine held by a group or organization - and changed the sentence accordingly. --Darth Vindictus 17:38, 13 Oct 2006.

Soresu
I propose to remove that eras icons 'cause is a lightsaber combat style not a character !Darth Nospher 00:02, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
 * No, because Soresu was only practiced in certain eras. Atarumaster88  [[Image:Jedi_Order.jpg|20px]] ( Audience Chamber ) 00:06, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
 * You wanna tell me that Soresu was never practiced after the Obi Wan vs. Vader confrontation ???Darth Nospher 19:02, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
 * We only have evidence of it being practiced up until that time, yes. Atarumaster88  [[Image:Jedi_Order.jpg|20px]] ( Audience Chamber ) 19:30, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, here you must be right !Darth Nospher 20:49, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

The opening stance of Form III
Perhaps this was stated already but, Kenobi's stance is "aggressive back", which is not exclusive to form 3. This Kenobi's dueling stance choice, but the true Form 3 stance is something like jedi ready. change?Macewindu 02:29, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
 * As far as I know, there is no canonical opening stance for Form III, so I'll check the article for it. If it is canon, just say so here. Atarumaster88  [[Image:Jedi_Order.jpg|20px]] ( Audience Chamber ) 04:40, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Cleanup
I made a couple of refinements since Atarumaster added the Cleanup template on it. I'm still somehow dissatisfied with it. In my opinion it still needs:
 * better organizing (I get a feeling that many things are unnecessarily repeated all over again)
 * a more neutral POV ("Obi-Wan heavy" and overly complimentary of him)
 * some sentences may need rewriting - TopAce 22:26, 24 February 2007 (UTC)