Forum:SH:Possible Merge between "Jedi" and "Jedi Order"

As suggested by Brandon Rhea, I have moved this question to the Senate Hall so that we can hopefully have a comprehensive conversation regarding a possible merger between the Jedi and Jedi Order pages.

This question was asked months ago on the Jedi article's talk page that no one responded to, but why are there separate articles for "Jedi" and "Jedi Order"? No distinction is made between the "Sith" and "Sith Order." Most of the information in the "Jedi" article can easily be merged into the "Jedi Order" page. I suppose one might argue that there was no "Jedi Order" after Order 66, just a few "Jedi" survivors. However, Luke Skywalker's databank article lists "Jedi Order" among his affiliations, thereby confirming that the Jedi Order never fully died out during the Imperial Era in spite of the Sith's efforts. Without a canon source to confirm that "Jedi" and "Jedi Order" are separate, I believe that the former should be merged into the latter's page.

Although Jedi/Legends and Jedi Order/Legends are separate articles, it should be noted that there was more than one Jedi organization in the Legends continuity i.e. New Jedi Order. In canon there has only been one Jedi Order and it is synonymous with "Jedi" as "Sith" is with "Sith Order." JRT2010 (talk) 06:05, June 11, 2018 (UTC) My initial reaction would be that the Jedi Order is an organization whereas Jei are members of the organization. We wouldn't merge stormtrooper with Stormtrooper Corps either. 1358 (Talk)  20:58, June 11, 2018 (UTC)
 * Ahsoka leaves the Jedi Order but is still referred to as a Jedi isn't she? I'd argue that that's evidence of an individual being able to be a Jedi without being a member of the order, meaning that they're separate concepts deserving of separate pages. Ayrehead02 (talk) 17:18, June 11, 2018 (UTC)
 * Ahsoka herself says "I'm no Jedi." The Databank doesn't treat the "Jedi" and "Jedi Order" as separate concepts; they're synonymous, like "Sith" and "Sith Order." "Jedi" and "Sith" can be used to refer to individual members of the orders, and they can be the short forms of the names "Jedi Order" and "Sith Order." If we have "Sith" and "Sith Order" under one page, then it seems reasonable to do the same for "Jedi" and "Jedi Order." JRT2010 (talk) 17:44, June 11, 2018 (UTC)
 * So the real question is: "What is a Jedi?" Follow-on questions: Is any Force user a Jedi?  Is a Sith a Jedi?  Are Jedi only those who are part of the Jedi Order or not?  Is somebody who follows the rules/teachings of the Jedi Order, but not officially part of the Jedi Order, considered to be a Jedi?  I don't have any source examples to cite (nor have I even read either of the articles recently); I'm just throwing these thought exercises out there. -  Esjs  (Talk to me) 20:47, June 11, 2018 (UTC)
 * Fair enough. I still kind of lean towards merging the articles since the Sith page covers both the members and the organization they belong to, but I see your point. However, if we regard the Jedi page as referring to members of the Jedi Order rather than a group or organization, than shouldn't the affiliation fields in Ezra Bridger and Rey's infobox list Jedi Order and not merely Jedi, since that page is about members of the organization, not the organization itself. Granted, Ezra and Rey became Jedi in a time when the Jedi Order was on the brink of extinction, but the order was never fully destroyed as long as even a single Jedi lived. As Snoke said, as long as Luke Skywalker lived, the seed of the Jedi Order still lived. Besides, a stormtrooper character (ex: TK-422) would have Stormtrooper Corps listed in the affiliation section of their infobox, not stormtrooper. JRT2010 (talk) 22:01, June 11, 2018 (UTC)
 * I meant TK-710, not his Legends counterpart. JRT2010 (talk) 22:15, June 11, 2018 (UTC)
 * Or to frame in real-world terms: a 'practicing Catholic' is not 'the Catholic Church.' &mdash; DigiFluid(Whine here) 23:06, June 11, 2018 (UTC)
 * Exactly. He or she is a member of the Church, not the Church itself. Therefore, it seems more fitting to list Jedi Order, not Jedi in the infoboxes of Ezra Bridger and Rey, as one is about an organization and the other is about the members of that organization. JRT2010 (talk) 23:50, June 11, 2018 (UTC)
 * I'd tend to agree, although I'm not sure if the Jedi Order even existed as an organization during Ezra's and Rey's "membership". 1358  (Talk)  00:26, June 16, 2018 (UTC)
 * I guess if we aren't listing Jedi in the infoboxes then we shouldn't list anything, as Ecks said the Jedi Order wasn't really an organization at those points so it doesn't make sense for Rey and Ezra to have it listed --Lewisr (talk) 00:32, June 16, 2018 (UTC)
 * I think for Rey, since Luke talks about how he intends to end the Jedi Order and then goes on to say that Rey, not Luke, is the last Jedi, we can safely list her as a member of the Jedi Order because it still existed in Episode VIII. But I'd agree that Ezra gets a bit tricky. Organizationally there was no Jedi Order from Episode III until after Episode VI, until Luke brought it back. Ezra's Databank, for example, does not list him as being affiliated with the Jedi Order. The Jedi Order Databank page also says that the Order was "eradicated" in Episode III. So for Ezra it might be safer to leave him listed just as a Jedi. And I would keep that in his infobox. It's helpful for readers. - Brandon Rhea (talk) 00:34, June 16, 2018 (UTC)
 * Fair enough, that makes sense --Lewisr (talk) 00:49, June 16, 2018 (UTC)
 * I agree that it's more complicated in Ezra's case, but I think it can be argued that as long as even one Jedi lives, the Jedi Order continues to live through them. Snoke lowkey said as much: "Skywalker lives. The seed of the Jedi Order lives." Later he highkey said it again: "We will give him and the Jedi Order the death he desires." So while the Jedi Order may not have existed in an organizational sense post-Order 66, from the perspective of both Luke and Snoke the Jedi Order still existed through any surviving Jedi. This would include Ezra, as he is a Jedi. If Episode VIII indicated anything, it's that the Jedi Order will not end until the last Jedi dies. JRT2010 (talk) 07:33, June 16, 2018 (UTC)
 * I'd be on board for that interpretation. - Brandon Rhea (talk) 16:40, June 16, 2018 (UTC)
 * It's a fine interpretation, but it's speculative and based on the words of a character with a demonstrated willingness to manipulate others to get them to do what he wants. We're not in the business of speculating, but of reporting what canon sources say.  The canon databank says the Jedi Order ended in Episode III.  That's what we must go by unless some other canon source explicitly overturns it. Asithol (talk) 17:13, June 19, 2018 (UTC)