Talk:Malachor V

Was it Revan who ordered to use the MSG? I thought it was the Exile who was responsible - and this is directly tied to him being cut off the Force. - Sikon 08:03, 5 Jul 2005 (UTC)

Yes, it was definitely the Exile who gave the order, and I'm pretty sure it was Bao-Dur who actually activated the mass shadow generator. Remember the conversation in KOTOR2 when Bao tells the Exile about his nightmares of Malachor? He mentions the Exile giving him the order to activate it, doesn't he?

Should the dark-side ending be mentioned in the Malachor articles? If the Exile goes Sith, he doesn't destroy the planet. 141.152.46.70 23:06, 5 Jan 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes of course, every KOTOR-article has a ==Behind the scenes== section where the alternate scenarios are described. Feel free to add what you know. MoffRebus 23:29, 5 Jan 2006 (UTC)

True Sith

 * I've removed LetoII's additions about the "True Sith", since there's no canon basis for identifying them as anything other than the Sith Empire of Ragnos, Sadow et al. QuentinGeorge 02:50, 14 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Though no offense meant, but I too have played the game multiple times, and the "True Sith" are established as (A) having constructed the Trayus Academy on Malachor V, and (B) having done so "tens of millennia ago," per the loading-screen "factoids" and in-game dialogue (Kreia, et al). However, like most people with a reasonably healthy work and social life outside of SW, I personally haven't transcribed the vast lion's share of convos from the game, but have taken rather extensive notes covering these subjects during the course of several playthroughs.

The qualitative difference between a game being considered a "primary LFL source" and a novel or comic book is -- obviously -- that one cannot often simply queue up a level or scenario or character conversation on a moment's notice for review.

The facts from the game are thus:

Clearly, then, this order of Sith cannot be related in any way, shape, or form to the later Sith Order of Marka Ragnos and Ludo Kressh, as the game carefully delineates. Kreia takes very specific pains to differentiate between the Sith Order as it existed during the past 2,949 years, and the "True Sith," who are many, many times older. We do not know much else beyond these very specific pieces of data, including the extent of their empire, but their construction of the Trayus Academy is unequivocally established in the game.
 * 1) Malachor V was once occupied tens of thousands of years ago by another, older order of the Sith. Kreia refers to them as "the True Sith" on multiple occasions throughout the latter phases of the game. Malachor is located right at the edge of the Unknown Regions, per The New Essential Chonology and the game's dialogue.
 * 2) Said Sith, whoever they were, then retreated back into the Unknown Regions at some undocumented point during the "interregnum" prior to the events of KotOR II.
 * 3) The First Sith Empire is founded in the year 6,900 BBY, following the Hundred-Year Darkness by renegade Dark Jedi, who discover the planet Korriban and adjacent space. The empire comes nowhere near the Unknown Regions in territorial proximity, and lies far distant from Malachor V itself.

Again, absolutely no personal offense meant, here, but why these facts are consistently ignored by a couple of folks -- when they're presented right there in plain sight during the game, exact dating-locks and all -- is profoundly puzzling. Elsewhere on message boards across the Internet, you see clear and reasonably in-depth discussion over the "True Sith" and their role in the greater KotOR story. Their very existence presents several new wrinkles to the history of the Sith, but they are wrinkles that nonetheless must be acknowledged and addressed. --The Bandsaw Vigilante


 * The unknown regions were far larger during this time period, so your thinking is heavily flawed. Before and during the Great Hyperspace War, the Sith Empire was deep within the unknown regions...--Sentry 06:46, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Your evidence for this? Nowhere has it ever been mentioned that the Old Sith Empire lay within the same "unknown regions" (lowercase spelling) as the "Unknown Regions" that Rakata Prime and Malachor border. Totally different ends of the galaxy. -- The Bandsaw Vigilante 13 September 2006 (UTC)


 * It is explicitly mentioned that these Sith were not related to the so-called "True Sith," and that the retreat of the "True Sith" into the Unknown Regions occurred long before the Great Hyperspace War. --The Bandsaw Vigilante
 * Evidence? I am quite certain that no such statement is ever made. --Sentry 06:46, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Kreia's exact dialogue from the game:

Exile: And Bao-Dur -- and the droids?

Kreia: Their paths are unknown to me. Even the small one -- who waits for you outside this place -- I sense it has one last journey for you. You must go where Revan did, into the Unknown Regions, where the Sith, the True Sith, wait in the dark for the great war that comes.

Exile: And Revan? He came here, was here. What happened to him?

Kreia: It is because he remembered what lay buried here -- this place, its teachings. It paved the way to Korriban, the remnants here. And he came because Malachor, like Korriban, lies on the fringes of the ancient Sith Empire, where the True Sith wait for us, in the dark.

Exile: But we've fought the Sith.

Kreia: Have we? You thought that the corrupted remnants of the Republic, the machines spawned by technology that Revan led into battle were the Sith? You are wrong. The Sith is a belief. And its empire, the True Sith Empire, rules elsewhere. And Revan knew that the true war is not against the Republic. It waits for us beyond the Outer Rim. And he has gone to fight it, in his own way. He left the Ebon Hawk and its machine behind, for he knew he would not need them. And, like you, he knew he must leave all loves behind as well, no matter how deeply one cares for them.

Therefore, the True Sith lie within the Unknown Regions, beyond the Outer Rim -- not on Korriban's side of the galaxy. -- The Bandsaw Vigilante 13 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I am afraid that it is you The Bandsaw Vigilante that are wrong here. Little or nothing is known about Obsidian entertainment's mysterious (some would say idiotic) "True Sith", but the loading screens clearly state that malachor V was part of the old sith empire. With all due respect, almost all your conclusions stated above are based on incomplete or corrupted data. I would suggest that you read the Chronicles of the Old Republic as well as the Jedi Civil War article before you make any more fanon conjectural changes to this and other similar articles...--Sentry 06:46, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Sorry, but you're incorrect -- you seemed to have missed a few key passages of text from the game. The so-called "incompleteness" phenomenon that affected many other parts of the game isn't a factor here. The game designers had a specific plan in mind for differentiating between the "True Sith" and the Old Sith Empire the way they did, and the dates in the game bear this own...to say nothing of the galactiospatial placement of the Old Empire vis-a-vis the Unknown Regions (more on this down below). And citing the Chronicles of the Old Republic as a source is discontinuitous, as it has since been largely discredited as an error-riddled source of hard historical "fact." (By the way -- to take the Wookieepedia "Jedi Civil War" article as an official, legitimate source of data is to be guilty of the very same fanonical conjecturation you accuse others of perpetrating.) -- The Bandsaw Vigilante 13 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I'd prefer all speculation about who the "True Sith" are removed from articles until any details are unveiled. For me, it seems that placing Malachor and Korriban on edges of the Old Sith Empire (as mentioned in KOTOR II) is sufficient to establish equivalence between them and the so-called "True Sith", especially considering that the term "true" is used against Revan and Malak's converts (who, in Kreia's opinion, were "false Sith"). But as there is controversy, no opinion should be enforced. - Sikon [ Talk ] 08:47, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
 * If you look at any SW atlas, however, you'll see that Rakata Prime and Malachor V are nowhere near the Old Sith Empire -- they're on the completely opposite side of the galaxy, as a matter of fact. The game is very clear and careful on this point, as they were retconning some of Canderous's dialogue from the first game to create a new enemy, albeit one derived from a pre-existing foe. That said, bear in mind the precise phraseology Kreia uses in the game:


 * "And he came because Malachor, like Korriban, lies on the fringes of the ancient Sith Empire, where the True Sith wait for us, in the dark."

The key here is to remember that nowhere does Kreia state "the Old Sith Empire," which didn't become an historical term until centuries later -- she uses the phrase "the ancient Sith Empire," which connotes a completely different group as much as it might also suggest the Marka Ragnos empire of 6,900 BBY. Moreso, in fact, considering that the KotOR era is itself now considered the "ancient" epoch of Star Wars history, with Kreia suddenly referring to the True Sith themselves as being "ancient." The entire historical Sith paradigm now shifts drastically when we take this new data into consideration.

And then you have to take into account the other dialogue, which then completely and totally destroys any notion that the the Trayus Academy was ever constructed by anyone remotely connected to the Old Empire. The notion is laid waste utterly. At best, there is the strong implication that the True Sith were related to the ancient Korriban race -- which isn't at all ruled out by Abel Peña's article, it should be noted -- and you now have a tenuous connection between the two groups, but a connection nonetheless.

Me personally? I have no stake in how this whole thing eventually shakes out, one way or the other. If LFL wants to take it in the other direction (not likely, given what I've heard from someone deeply involved in KotOR III 's development), that's fine, and the official histories would be adjusted accordingly.

I simply go by the evidence, however, like any historian worth his or her salt -- and the evidence succinctly dictates beyond all reasonable doubt an unimpeachable demarcation between the True Sith order, and the Old Sith Empire of later millennia.

Now, having considered this, might I suggest a compromise in the article text? Perhaps a slight revision to the topmost entry dealing with the True Sith, mentioning some of the ambiguity surrounding their connection with the Sith species of Korriban, and some further bridging data? It seems to be the best way to go in this case, but neither can the True Sith simply be thrown to the winds. Reconciling the two without venturing into fanonicity might be the best way to keep everyone happy, while giving the True Sith their proper due. I agree with Sikon that hard data on them are rather sparse at the moment, but we'll be waiting a while yet for more information on them, and what official tidbits already we have add fascinating texture and flavor to the Sith's history. Thoughts? -- The Bandsaw Vigilante 13 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Feel free to add information to the 'Behind the scenes' section. I am tired of arguing about this issue, but I suggest that you actually do a little not-KOTOR research into the Sith Empire and the extent of the Unknown Regions during this time period before you make any changes. I already made my case above and over at Talk:True Sith. It seems to me that you are intent on basing you case on your personal interpretation of dialog from the games mixed with a spattering of minor inconsistencies that most of us consider game mechanics isssues. Lastly, you seem to be basing a lot of your thinking on the galaxy maps presented in the KOTOR games. Please remember that the map of the galaxy presented in the KOTOR series in by no means intended to be accurate and the creators have stated so on more than one occasion.– 21:44, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Pardon me for saying this -- and no insult is intended, of course -- but if you were a TF.N Lit Forum poster (and you might be under another name; I have no way of knowing), you'd know who I am, and of the amount of awareness I possess on the ancient Sith Order. Not to boast, but I'm generally regarded as one of the "experts" on the subject -- not only over there, but on Usenet and elsewhere -- an area of speciality that I've spent the nearly the last decade-and-a-half honing. (Though I suppose one can't get all puffed up and consider such things truly "important" in the grand scheme of existence.) Suffice to say, I'm more than confident in my knowledge of the antique Sith -- folks like QuentinGeorge and Kuralyov will readily testify to this -- and of the historiographical subtleties and delicateness involved in taking all major and minor sources into account.

To wit, it's scarcely a matter of "personal interpretation" to post the exact dialogue from games, and then take it literally at face value. To do otherwise would be to do as you imply -- to introduce "personal" vaguaries and skewed takes upon the primary source material. This I have not done. All I dare to suggest is that one takes the dialogue exactly as the designers intended. That we have some faith in the notion that they are in fact the truthful and correct versions of events, precisely as LFL wishes. Furthermore, nowhere in the game is it ever stated outright that the empire of Naga Sadow and Ludo Kressh had so much as a single hand in the construction of the Trayus Academy -- indeed, its very age prevents this from ever having occurred.

Additionally, I should rightly point out here that I'm basing my cartographical observations strictly from sources like the NEC map -- which puts Malachor V and Rakata Prime very far away from the Old Empire, which is entirely simpatico with the purposes of the LFL writers and editors. I agree wholeheartedly that the KotOR game-maps aren't reliable in the least with regard to accurately gauging spatial-placements and the like. (As a matter of fact, I involved myself in a fairly large-scale TF.N thread around year-and-a-half or so back which debunked it.) Which shouldn't present the impression that I don't appreciate the fact that this is (finally) such a popular subject that virtually everyone has an opinion on it in one form or another, and I sincerely enjoy the back-and-forth discussions on the issue. All I'm really saying is that there are several factors which must be accounted for and incorporated into the larger picture, lest we one day find ourselves at a critical remove from the "true" events due to omission. -- The Bandsaw Vigilante 13 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Okay, now you are getting on my nerves. I, Kuralyov, QuentinGeorge, and Sikon all disagree with you. All three of them are admins. Give it a rest, buddy.– 22:49, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Excuse me? I beg your pardon? This was settled months ago -- kindly review the article-history revision records. You are the one blithely inserting fanonical interpretation into the mix, not me. From what I'm looking at right now, you were the one who reverted the entry back long after the matter was conclusively resolved. Please show me where minds were supposedly "changed" since you stepped in and started facetiously injecting your personal spin on everything. You wanna talk about "consensus"? If it's mentioned in the game, it gets put into the article proper. I can't wrap my mind around the fact that you're even believing half of what you're claiming. If you'd done any sort of proper notetaking at all when you played the game, you'd have a better grasp of the actual evidence.

I provide evidence to back up my writings -- you, to date, have not.

Show me one concrete shard of hard proof -- exact dialogue, anything -- directly and irrefutably linking the True Sith to Naga Sadow's group beyond a shadow of a reasonable doubt, and I'll concede. Trouble is, it doesn't exist. I placed this revision in as a compromise sop to folks like you, and what you're proposing is to throw out entire chunks of official LFL continuity wholesale. Where I come from, that dog don't hunt. -- The Bandsaw Vigilante 13 September 2006 (UTC)

As an encyclopedia, this wiki documents established fact. You must provide irrefutable sources for the information that you add to an article. You simply have not done that. So little is currently known about the True Sith (and what we know from Kreia has not been verified by any other source) that it would be quite impossible to provide sources for your contributions.


 * Er, no. Wiki articles are not "established fact," as anyone in the academic world will tell you. A Wiki is a second-hand borrowing of fact, and occasionally even third-hand. You happen to see any articles in here directly written by sanctioned LFL personnel, and authorized as canon? There's a very good reason why the vast majority of college professors do not allow Wikipedia articles to be used as primary sources in research-based pieces -- including my own wife. Any claims to the contrary are academically disingenuous, and to state that a Wiki article is an incorruptible document crosses over into outright intellectual dishonesty. When such entries can be tweaked by those with an agenda, the entire affair becomes tainted. As a secondary source, absolutely...but one also subject to third-party vetting, as in this case.

When the very establishing dialogue from the game is suddenly and arbitrarily declared a "non-source" by one single user, one has to start questioning the actual credibility Wookieepedia as a whole. -- The Bandsaw Vigilante 13 September 2006 (UTC)

As I stated on Talk:True Sith:

Kreia is the sole source for the supposed 'True Sith' and she has hardly proved to be reliable in the past. Her statements are so vague that it is impossible to infer anything concrete and verifiable from them; a single scheming character's rantings hardly provides a good foundation for your theories. As such, trying to form broad and far-reaching conclusions based on her statemts is speculation and speculation is not allowed on this wiki. It is considered a form of fanon.
 * You're employing a logical fallacy here, I'm afraid. The game clearly states that the True Sith are orders of magnitude older than the Old Sith Empire, yet you're suggesting that an out-of-universe reason for one dating inconsistency (Kreia purportedly being off by a couple of years on the Mandalorian War date) connotes still another, different one...in this case, the True Sith dating-fix; neither of which logically have anything to do with the other. Different situations, different subjects. Tens of millennia versus perhaps a decade or so. Statistically insignificant, as any mathematician will tell you, and it's also far easier to be correct about vast aeons of time than it is to nail down dates within even a year or two. (As John Jackson Miller will undoubtedly attest.)

Furthermore, in case you haven't played the game in awhile, nowhere does Kreia ever give the True Sith dating -- it comes from the in-game loading-screen "factoids," and elsewhere. Kreia is not the "sole source" for information on the True Sith in the game. You need to refresh your memory on a few things, it would seem. -- The Bandsaw Vigilante 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Secondly, whether or not your theories prove to be correct in the future doesn't matter in the least. You stated the following above:

Really? When? From what I have seen, every single person who has posted their thoughts on this talk page has disagreed with you. If you think that you have the right to integrate your own pet theories and speculaton into this article and tell other users to refute them or else, you are sadly mistaken. As I said when I last reverted your edits, this site runs on consensus and you simply do not have it.


 * Er, sorry? Had a look at the Talk: True Sith page lately? The one with the little banner spreadeagled across the top, proclaiming:

And coming back to this page, even those in disagreement (read: several of us) eventually reached an equitable and civilized consensus on the issue back in April; it wasn't until you poached the article the following month that it reverted, with you then declaring this solipsistic victory on supposed "consensus." However, personal belief does not evidence support, and unfortunately you have failed to provide even one direct piece of proof from the games that the Old Sith Empire and the True Sith so much as shared the same historical time period together. Where does Kreia or some other character state that Marka Ragnos or Ludo Kressh or anyone else associated with that particular empire ever had anything to do with the construction of the Trayus facility? Hm? Where? I'll tell you -- nowhere. Not one person to date has ever been named in direct correlation between the Old Sith Empire and the True Sith. No chain of custody, no oral histories, nothing.

Your argument doesn't touch base with reality at any two contiguous points.

Venture over to TF.N at all? You'll find that you're in the distinct minority there on this subject, with most users going by the actual evidence presented in the game. Not fanonical wankery masquerading as "fact" simply because you've formulated some theory based on zero verifiable, quantifiable proof. -- The Bandsaw Vigilante 13 September 2006 (UTC)

The presence of Sith holocrons is very clear evidence that the planet was part of the Sith Empire. According to Evil Never Dies: The Sith Dynasties, the Sith species learned how to make such holocrons from the Rakata. No other group has ever been known to make them. Secondly, the mention of Korriban strongly suggests that the planet was, at the very least, connected closely to the Sith Empire.


 * Yes, and how, pray tell, does this connect the True Sith to Marka Ragnos's group in any way other than the location of Korriban? Hell, we knew from the very first game that both Malachor V and Rakata Prime were located near the Unknown Regions, and that there was a Rakatan star map located on Korriban. This isn't exactly new information you're giving us, here. There was clearly a connection between the various groups, which I in fact noted in the article before you ever posted this. So just what *is* this supposed "smoking gun" of yours which undisputably links the Old Sith Empire to the True Sith, person-to-person, apart from some vague circumstantial leanings?

Also, re: the Sith Holocrons --

You haven't yet proven your point with this, since Abel Peña's article does not mention one word about the Rakatans being the sole sentients in the galaxy in possession of holocron-construction technology. The exact passage:

That's it. Nothing else is mentioned as to whether or not the Rakata were or were not the exclusive purveyors of the technology. Your statement that "the planet [Malachor V] was part of the Sith Empire" due to "the presence of Sith Holocrons" is based on a very flimsy pretext, indeed. (I happen to be an attorney by practice, and I have to say that the arguments you're concocting and the material you're presenting would get you laughed right out of the courtroom if this were a trial.)

The burden of proof is upon you to support your claims in contravention of direct evidenciary citation. (And non-Wiki, to boot.)

Mine's been presented. Where is yours? -- The Bandsaw Vigilante 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Lastly, please don't even bother to question my credentials. Please take a look at our civility policy because your comments are now verging on personal attacks. I wrote the Mandalorian Wars, Jedi Civil War, Rakata articles, among others, virtually from scratch and with little assistance. Hours of research were required to complete those articles, so yes I too know very well what I am talking about.
 * You questioned mine first.

In case you've developed selective amnesia in the last seven or eight hours, kindly glance above at the page preceding. You were the first person to "question credentials" and "[verge] on personal attacks" with the following:

Ipso facto.

Accept the compromise as the gesture it was, and move on. -- The Bandsaw Vigilante 13 September 2006 (UTC)