Talk:Battle of Endor/Legends

There is a good amount of information on the Imperial ships and officers present at Endor. ==Fleets== could be filled out with that. I'm sure some one on a forum has compiled it. --SparqMan 02:18, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * The Fleets section seems redundant in my eyes. We've already got all that information in the box. Unless someone objects, I'm removing it. Narvi 11:35, 11 Oct 2005 (UTC)

number of ships
How come there are an enormous amount of cruisers on the rebel side?

3+ Home One-type Star Cruisers 22+ Mon Calamari Star Cruisers (various classes)

wtf? -- Falmarin 23:38, 4 Jul 2005 (UTC)
 * Because the Rebels assembled a big amount of their combined fleet-strenght for this battle. The Empire brought along 30+ warships, though, most of them bigger than anything the Rebels had to offer. VT-16 09:07, 24 Jul 2005 (UTC)


 * In addition to the numbers for the cruisers, the rebel fleet strength also lists 10+ Nebulon-B frigates, 100+ corellian corvettes, 100+ transports, and 800+ assorted fighters. These numbers are roughly 10 times what was shown in ROTJ.  Also, there are six Nebulon-B frigates listed, three are redlinks, and Antares 6 is not listed as being in service until 10ABY Scuff 18:29, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
 * People keep editting that out. The Rebel Fleet was massive, it had to be fore this attack
 * People are editing it out because there is no source to back up those numbers, and they directly conflict with the movie and other representations of the battle. Scuff 21:41, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
 * There are at least 9 Nebulon-Bs visible here. Given that only a small part of the fleet is visible, there could be a lot more. -Vermilion 01:34, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
 * There are more visible there than I would expect to see, this is true (though I only see 7) but my point is why should we make up numbers.  If the strengths are unknown, isn't it enough to just say Nebulon-b frigates and list the names of ones that are confirmed?  Scuff 13:34, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I believe the novel had a confirmation on the numbers of ships. And Scuff, think about it, the Rebel Fleet was amassed from all around the galaxy. There were literally hundreds of capital ships. If there weren't, then the Rebel Fleet would have not been a match for the Imperial Navy.-Rob.

"ople are editing it out because there is no source to back up those numbers, and they directly conflict with the movie and other representations of the battle. Scuff 21:41, 6 July 2006 (UTC)"

-SWF
 * Um, the novel for ROTJ says the entire Rebel Allience Fleet is at Endor, so basically every Rebel (and allied ships, like the Airam, etc) Ship shown in the novels, comics, and games, etc not destroyed up to Endor is at Endor. A Nebulon-B Frigate called "Antares" is shown in Star Wars: Rebellion.

You are all forgetting, the MOVIE takes primacy over all comics, and other canon!

In the movie, they had a maximum of 5 calamari cruisers and perhaps 10 blockade runners, and 2 or 3 nebulon frigates.

Assuming that the fleet was 10 times larger than it was shown in the movie is ridiculous, and should be removed.
 * I'm not sure if this is yet resolved, but again, what is the specific source of these numbers, like 500 starfighters? And suggesting we can come up with an accurate, official account by "identifying" blurry starship shapes on screen is a little silly. I guess this is just more of the endless "speculation versus proof" argument that's all over the 'pedia. But proof should really be established, and not "I think the novel said something about it" sort of explanations. If the person who put the info on the page can't come up with a specific explanation, it sounds speculative to me. --JMM 15:00, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
 * The Rebel Alliance fleet does seem to be ridiculously small when we see it make the jump to hyperspace. Perhaps this was only a small portion of it?  I just can not believe that any fleet that small should not be pulverized by so many Star Destroyers.Smokey 21:17, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

New Republic
"However, it was an extremely weak government and its rule was quite ineffective." - isn't that sentence POV? Aside from the fact it shouldn't even be in the Battle of Endor article, it should be probably replaced with examples of the government's inefficiency. - Sikon 01:33, 16 Aug 2005 (UTC)

Question?
Why is Vader not listed as a Commander for the Empire in the battle? he was in charge of the Fleet was he not?
 * While Vader was an extremely high ranking official in the Empire and a well recognized personal agent of the Emperor, he did not actively command any military units at Endor. --SparqMan 23:38, 5 Oct 2005 (UTC)

Teshik?
Should be a casualty for the battle? He wasn't killed in it, just captured and then executed later. Thanos6 04:22, 22 Nov 2005 (UTC)

Naboo Starfighters
What sources say that N-1 fighters were used by the Alliance?? Bly1993 14:43, 2 Jan 2006 (UTC)
 * You can use a Naboo fighter in the Rogue Leader game.--Commander Mike 20:39, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Objection!No Proof!etc.
 * The Naboo starfighter is only there as an easter egg, so that doesn't count. Rogue Leader lets you fly all sorts of things like Slave I, and Vader's TIE, and none of those are really taking continuity seriously. - lalala_la

The Pellaeon section
That seems very NPOV; there are huge debates about Pellaeon's actions over at TFN, by no means is it as simple as this makes it out to be. Thanos6 08:18, 9 February 2006 (UTC) -SWF
 * But note at TFN, all the discussions about Pellaeon's actions are caused by just one person who hates the character of Pellaeon and has a hard time accepting viewpoints other than his own. Kuralyov 18:47, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
 * That's what I mean; the whole Pellaeon part in this section is Gilad-bashing, that's why I slapped the NPOV on there. Thanos6 19:11, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
 * If you are referring to my additions, I simply elaborated upon (and IMHO softened)what was already there. However you are correct on a point, and to say "wrongfully ordered an illegal retreat" is indeed biased. "Wrongfully" is out. However, the rest of it is all "true," not merely opinion. Just because the sources make Pallaeon look bad, doesn't mean that they aren't valid, and I resent the suggestion that the entire section is "Pellaeon bashing." --jerry 02:53, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Given that I have deleted the opinionated word may I remove the NPOV tag?--jerry 15:56, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
 * It's not wrong because, according to several sources including the most recent NEC, Pellaeon was the highest ranking officer left in the general command structure (with Harrsk being in another unit). As much as your profile indicates you don't like established canon, it's there. Kuralyov 21:51, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Would it be alright if I requested a quote? IIRC they were all flying under Fleet Admiral Piett's flag.
 * Pellaeon ordered a retreat AFTER Teshik's ship was disabled 4 hours after the DS II destruction. Harrsh didn't like being ordered around by Pellaeon and broke off. Prittick then took command of the Fleet, told the Empire formally of the defeat and gave command back to Pellaeon

Would have won
The Empire would have won and crushed the rebels had the Emperor let the Imperial fleet attack.

- (critic) No they would not. The Rebels had shown on repeated occasions their resourcefulness. If the Imperial fleet attacked, it would have been worse for the Death Star gunners because the Rebels would split up their fleet and simply move out of the way of the Death Star's superlaser, and cause the Imperial fleet to break formation, allowing Rebel ships to make a run out of the battle through the hyperspace vector. Palpatine used the Imperial fleet as a wall to keep the Rebels from moving out the sight of the superlaser and destroy them at the same time. The error in their thinking was the near suicidal plan by Calrissian to engage the Imperial fleet, and thus resulting in a similar situation you have mentioned. The Rebel fleet would be crippled, but not all destroyed and go back into hiding.

P.S. The Empire would have won, if they sent a large force of Interdictor cruisers and had more experienced TIE pilots


 * Yeah it was a now or never moment. Palpatine said that he let the coordinates of everything be released so he could draw in the rebels and destroy them once and for all. Plus, Palpatine had to turn Luke to the dark side and the longer the battle went on Luke became more angry and desperate. --Dumac 03:13, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Name
I would vote for moving this back to simply Battle of Endor. The Second Battle of Endor page points out that it's battle was part of the Nagai/Tof invasion, while this battle is part of the Galactic Civil War. -- SFH 22:30, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Agreed. -LtNOWIS 20:42, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
 * If the two are of separate wars/engagements, they don't need sequential numbering. Rename the second battle "Battle of Endor (Nagai/Tof War)" or something like that. -- Riffsyphon1024 20:52, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
 * For the record, I believe that one of the Marvel issues after #100 actually mentions "the second battle of Endor" in dialogue. --JMM 15:02, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Alliance Dreadnaught
This image shows what I believe to be a Dreadnaught in the background as the Millennium Falcon swoops towards camera to fly by Home One in space over Sullust. I may be mistaken, but if it is a Dreadnaught, I suppose that makes the ship a Movie ship, but just "characterised" by the EU... I don't know if it participated in the battle at all, but it does look an awful lot like a Dreadnaught... can anyone clarify this? --Skarloey 18:44, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, that's a Rendili Dreadnaught. I also saw Bulk Cruisers made by Rendili. Also, they mention the Rendili Dreadnaught is Episod eIII, so it could be canon -SWF
 * Did they mention it actually in ROTS, or just in the ROTS novelization (which is the only reference I know of)? And I always though that ship had a big command-pod sticking out above it, but that might have been just a small ship. Is it said anywhere that the Dreadnaught-class design was based on this vessel? VT-16 15:54, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Is that image that Skarloey put on from Return of the Jedi, the special edition?

I think that is a Bulk cruiser not a Dreadnaught. Just look at the pictures of the two ships. It's definately a Bulk Cruiser. It's too thin and curved to be a Rendili Dreadnaught.


 * Hi! I'm Shannon and I'm new. I do a lot of stuff on Endor and I reckon that this ship is the Battle Horn-class Bulk Cruiser Urjani.--Shannon.JediKnight October 2006


 * I must agree that that ship is, most probably a bulk cruiser. Dreadnaughts have thicker 'necks', if I am not mistakenSmokey 21:17, 5 October 2006 (UTC) 20:22, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Time
How long did the battle actually last? QX100 01:38, 8 April 2006 (UTC)


 * It must have lasted for a number of hours because the shadowing of the Death Star does not change much and the ground battle on Endor is in afternoon daylight. The battle between Luke, Vader, and the death of the Emperor must be considered, which probably occured over a matter of 3 hours. By the time the Death Star is destroyed and Han is bandaging Leia, the light appears to be late afternoon. By the time they celebrate, it is evening. Of course any speculation of time is relative to how long it takes Endor to orbit, but supposing it is similar to Earth, it probably lasted about 4 or 5 hours, that is including the fight with the Imperial fleet after the Death Star's explosion.

Sad Ewok death
Has the Ewok who dies tragically (and is poked by his friend) been identified? --SparqMan 05:16, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes.He was an extra from The Muppets.Why?Does he need to have a name?


 * The horror. The horror.CaptJim 20:47, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
 * He survived really. It's the only way my young mind could deal with such a traumatic event.(Ulicus 23:46, 14 June 2006 (UTC))
 * I have to say that is the saddest death in star wars just because he was an ewok. Curse the imperial scum --Dumac 03:07, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Oh, my favourite ROTJ moment. .  .  .  .  02:32, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Everyone aboard the Death Star?
What's the source for every single Imperial on the Death Star dying? They make a point of showing people running to and fro as alarms blare during the scene where Luke is leading Vader to the shuttle. It seems reasonable to assume that these guys are in the process of evacuating, especially since the fate of the original battle station would be weighing heavily on their minds as the tide of battle turned in favor of the Rebels. - Kooshmeister

I agree i wouldn't say everyone died but i'm sure that a few imperials didn't make it. Luke barely made it out in time so anyone who was behind him got toasted. --Dumac 03:16, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Blue 5
The article says it was Ten Nunb who flew as Blue 5, but it was really Ten Numb who was Blue 5. Somebody want to fix that? Because it sends to the wrong page when you click on it.


 * Hi I'm new. I think I'll try for you. By the way, can someone identify Blue Leader?--Shannon.JediKnight October 2006

Palpatine's Deaths
What the heck does it mean when it says, "Emperor Palpatine is killed (for the first time) by Darth Vader." Yeah, I know Emperor Palpatine had some clones but that sounds absolutely rediculous. When I saw this I was dying laughing. Can I PLEASE edit this???

I totally agree, the whole comic book thing is incredibly stupid. Whether you have clones or not, you only die once.

Or like the James Bond movie heh, you only live twice....
 * Actually, George Lucas said that the comic that was from was his favorite of all the Star Wars comics. -LtNOWIS 23:17, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

IG-88
The whole ridiculous IG-88 thing should be deleted. Even George Lucas after making Jar Jar sized blunders would laugh at this comic book BS. If these incredibly stupid plots continue to be in important articles such as this one and the Darth Vader article, then Wookieepedia will have no credibility.

It seems the people who run this site just want to spam as many useless comic articles as possible, just to outnumber other wannabe star trek wikis out there. Pretty pathetic.
 * Well, we can't pick and choose canon: or rather, we can when forming our own personal opinions on which Star Wars material to view, purchase, enjoy and set in our own hearts as the real Star Wars, but we can't when writing articles for this site. This has been an all-inclusive film and Expanded Universe encyclopedia from the start, following the canon and continuity policies of Lucasfilm. &mdash;Silly Dan (talk) 23:16, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Also, these were from Tales of the Bounty Hunters. Learn your sources before you denounce them. -- SFH 19:44, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Also, you already have 17,000 more articles here than we do at Memory Alpha, which I am pretty sure is the largest of the Star Trek wikis. --OuroborosCobra 17:27, 6 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I am compelled to agree that this 'IG-88' klap-trap does seem a bit ridiculous. How a droid should be able to perform all of the functions of such a massive machine as the Death Star II is 'Quite beyond my capacitySmokey 21:17, 5 October 2006 (UTC)


 * But that is not for us to decide. Even if it doesn't make sense it is not for us to choose what is or isn't canon. Red Head Rider 20:58, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Second Lambda-shuttle
I just noticed that there are two lambda-shuttles in the Rebel Fleet's list of ships. One of them is the Tydirium, but where does the other one come from? I always thought the rebels only managed to get one of those. Or is the second one supposed to be the shuttle taken by Luke to escape the Death Star? Borsk Fey&#39;lya 16:49, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Fleets & Participants
Does it make sense to list specific pilots under the Fleets section, and then list them in the Participants section? For example, we have Wedge Antilles and Tycho Celchu listed along with their callsigns in one section, and then their names again in another. Any thoughts? --JMM 13:33, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Does anyone have anything on the Star Destroyer Visage?--Shannon.JediKnight Ocotber 2006

Revert needed!
Someone's made the Imps victorious and lost a lot of the content. I'm not sure how reverts are supposed to take place, but it's needed. --216.20.70.81 14:59, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Second Battle of Endor?
Wouldn't this technically be the second battle of Endor during the Galactic Civil War? Wouldn't the battle in Ewoks: The Battle for Endor be considered the first one? Adamwankenobi 15:40, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
 * But that wasn't a conflict between the Empire and a rebel movement. VT-16 13:04, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
 * But shouldn't we have a page on it since it was a battle. Adamwankenobi 13:11, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Of course. But I know nothing about it, so it'll have to be someone else. VT-16 14:46, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
 * This battle is officially and constantly called "the Battle of Endor". Keep in mind that many of these "Battle of" articles on the 'pedia are fan created nicknames. But Battle of Endor is official. And I may have mentioned this before, but one of the Marvel Comics issues after the Nagai battle over Endor refers to that Nagai battle as "the second Battle of Endor" in dialogue. Though that name comes from a Nagai character. --JMM 15:29, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
 * So what do we call the battle in Ewoks: The Battle for Endor since the film takes takes before this battle? Adamwankenobi 15:38, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I doubt there's any "rule" for creating battles other than the locations they take place in, so, fanon or not, if a battle takes place on a specific planet, it is indeed the "battle of [name of planet]" unless actually stated to be something else. If "Battle of Endor (insert conflict)" is too grandious, what is the name of the planetary location where the fighting takes place? VT-16 19:04, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, it sort of starts at Terak's castle and ends near Bright Tree Village. I don't know exactly what you'd call it. It's basically a battle between the Ewoks and the Sanyassans. Adamwankenobi 19:21, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Is it part of a larger conflict between the two groups or could we just call the whole thing the "Ewok/Sanyassan War"? VT-16 21:32, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
 * It's pretty much a contained event, so no, it can't be called a war. Adamwankenobi 21:37, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
 * "Ewok/Sanyassan Conflict" then? Failing that, how about "Battle for Endor"? Like the movie's title? VT-16 23:09, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Interdictors
The list of ships for the Imperial side mentions Immobilizer 418 cruisers. It certainly makes sense that there would be Interdictors present; setting a trap without them makes little sense. But if there Interdictors in the Imperial fleet...how was Ackbar planning to retreat before Lando convinced him to press on the attack? Retreat isn't really an option when you can't jump to hyperspace, after all. 71.203.209.0 22:25, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Attack the Immobilizers head on, I suppose. They were support ships after all, would probably buckle under the weight of a fleet of bigger warships. VT-16 16:13, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Bowman Gavin
It says somewhere in Tyrant's Test that Bowman flew a B-wing Wedgeroks! 15:54, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Pyrrhic victory?
As I have read the list of Rebel Alliance casualties, it seems that the Alliance victory is a pyrrhic victory. For one instance, the infobox says that 75% of the surviving Rebel fleet was severely damaged by the defeated Imperial fleet, and that many Rebel capital ships were destroyed. For those who do not know, a pyrhhic victory is a victory that comes at a devastating cost to the victor. Tedius Zanarukando 21:20, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

In the infobox, it is said that the Empire lost Darth Vader and that the Alliance lost Anakin Skywalker. Since they are the same person, it is contradictory. This person was killed during the Battle of Endor and that he had helped both the Empire and the Alliance. Then why do I disagree with the infobox? Because Darth Vader wasn't killed by the Rebels. The person responsible for his death was the Emperor, although Vader/Anakin did not survive this battle. In the last moments of his life, Anakin fought for his son, so he was on the side of the Alliance. Hadn't Anakin killed Sidious, his death would have been a good thing for the Empire. I would remove Darth Vader from the Empire casualities.

Casualities: Darth Vader vs Anakin Skywalker
In the infobox, it is said that the Empire lost Darth Vader and that the Alliance lost Anakin Skywalker. Since they are the same person, it is contradictory. This person was killed during the Battle of Endor and that he had helped both the Empire and the Alliance. Then why do I disagree with the infobox? Because Darth Vader wasn't killed by the Rebels. The person responsible for his death was the Emperor, although Vader/Anakin did not survive this battle. In the last moments of his life, Anakin fought for his son, so he was on the side of the Alliance. Hadn't Anakin killed Sidious, his death would have been a good thing for the Empire. I would remove Darth Vader from the Empire casualities.

Losses of the Alliance Fleet- sources?
I don't challenge the source of the losses of Star Cruisers and Bulk Cruiser (movies, novelization, and XW: Alliance respectively). However, what is the source for the numbers of small ships claimed lost. 12 corvettes? 2 gunships? 3 frigates? 1 Kesselian bloackade runner? Seriously, I truely wish we had these types of numbers, but I am not aware of any source that lists the majority of the losses claimed. And I have alot of sources. If some sources are not provided I will remove the sections described above. AdmiralNick22 22:38, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Have you seen all the sources listed in the article?--Herbsewell 02:04, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, which is why I am curious where the info comes from. I am willing to wait and see if anyone can produce a source before I delete it. However, I remain very skeptical that such sources exist. AdmiralNick22 02:25, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Anyone have any sources to show yet? I also am now challenging the source saying that at least three Mon Cal cruisers were decimated by Star Destroyer guns. Having looked at novelization for ROTJ, I see the kamakaze attack, but no reference to three Rebel Star Cruisers being destroyed in this manner. No one is debating that the Rebellion lost many warships at Endor. However, we have no credible numbers so the fanon needs to be removed. I am still checking through my other sources, but nothing has come up. Which is not suprising to me. AdmiralNick22 15:38, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
 * You might want to go on the IRC.--Herbsewell 21:14, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Looks like a significant chunk of that was added by an IP who disappeared in September. I doubt you'll find anything to back it up. I went ahead and trimmed the Rebel losses to what I've seen in the Truce at Bakura Sourcebook and the games. -- Darth Culator  (Talk)(Kills) 18:28, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Another Vandalism. I apologize for calling you new, AdmiralNick2.  I had mistaken 2005 for 2006.  I thought instead of you contributing for a year, you had contributed for less than a day.--Herbsewell 18:40, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Darth Culator, thanks for the fix. I appreciate your apology Herbsewell. :-) It is important that as Wookieepedians we challenge sources we think to be in error. When they are found and corrected, it benefits all who participate here, as well as those who use this as a resource. AdmiralNick22 01:23, 4 January 2007 (UTC)