Talk:Jaden Korr/Archive1

Notice how Star Wars canon always dictates these design them yourself heroes are always male. Lucas is so incredibly sexist.
 * Yes, and the Light Side ending is always the default! How dare they discriminate against Evil! And I've never seen a Star Wars game with a hero character with ten legs! How dare they be so anti-decapodian! &mdash;Darth Culator  23:33, 30 Sep 2005 (UTC)
 * Leland Chee is trying to have the Jedi Exile declared canonically female, though. &mdash; Silly Dan  23:42, 30 Sep 2005 (UTC)
 * Actually, Lucasfilm hasn't stated Korr's gender. We were the ones that said he was male. Also, how many Sauvax Jedi have you heard about? -- SFH 23:45, 30 Sep 2005 (UTC)
 * Since Jadens appearance and gender has yet to be determind, it cannot be "assumed" that Jaden was a green eyed, brown haired, human male.
 * Just to add some fuel to the fire, one potentially canon appearance for Jaden is in this Wizards article on Hoth. Here's the pic. Although that article already made one glaring mistake in that Kyle Katarn supposedly went on the mission with Jaden... Eyrezer 02:29, 5 Dec 2005 (UTC) [[Image:canon Jaden.jpeg|thumb|right|300px]]
 * A female Twi'lek? That's rich. I wouldn't be so quick in declaring this Jaden canon, though. Maybe someone should email Cory Herndon (cjh@hernco.net) and point at the mistake about Katarn? Although this article is so old that he has probably received thousands of these... - Sikon [ Talk ] 05:50, 5 Dec 2005 (UTC)
 * Yeah I think his mistake was quickly pointed out to him when the article first came out. He hadn't actually played the level which seems a rather poor excuse. I guess that is the way it goes sometimes. Eyrezer 07:04, 5 Dec 2005 (UTC)

Gender Update
The New Essential Chronology pins Jaden's gender down as male, although his species isn't yet specified.

I updated the vital stats box. I suppose I'll go through and replace some of the repetetive "Jaden"'s with "he" when I have time, if someone doesn't get to it before I do. --000 01:50, 3 Jan 2006 (UTC)

What about using the word "customizable" in the character box?


 * For species? Too OOU, I'd guess.--000 03:52, 9 Jan 2006 (UTC)
 * I hate to break it to you guys but I had a look at where Jaden is mentioned (only in reference to Disciples of Ragnos) and it only says his. His, him, he is a term that is used generally if the gender is unknown. Its still possible that Jaden is a female. --Redemption 20:54, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Unknown gender usually goes by "they" or "them" or "he/she"--DannyBoy7783 21:21, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
 * But didn't the Jaden page go by "he" for simplification purposes? "He" is used as a term as for the MALE or for either genders. The book saying "him" at the end of the paragraph isn't enough to say that Jaden is a male --Redemption 21:46, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
 * They are typically pretty careful about that sort of thing. I feel comfortable leaving the gender as male until indicated otherwise elsewhere. By the very nature of wiki, it can easily be altered if it is shown that the "he" did not indicate a male. Eyrezer 22:07, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Could you provide the passage where the term "he" is used, Redemption? I'm interested in seeing how the author phrased it. Something like this usually depends on the context in which it is appears. SM-716 06:18, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Jaden Korr's herorics brought an end to the crisis, as well as pride to his teacher. This is the only time when he/she/him/her is used in the paragraph about Jaden. --Redemption 23:22, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
 * "He" is only used gender-neutrally as an indefinite pronoun, as in "Everybody brought his dog." I've never heard it used as a gender-neutral definite pronoun.  You would never hear someone say "Mary was a good student, and he studied a lot" if they didn't know what sex Mary was, for example.  Or "I met a friend at the movies, and he bought a soda."  That really wouldn't be interpreted to mean that the friend could be female.  And in-universe, there's no reason Voren Na'al wouldn't know Jaden's sex, as he would still be alive at that time.  Basically, if "he" isn't enough to say someone is male, I don't know what is.  That's just what gender-specific pronouns are for in a language. - Lord Hydronium 23:36, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, obviously you wouldn't use it with a name like Mary...the way that the paragraph is written, how do you expect someone to say that? "as well as pride to it's teacher"? This is definitly neutral and nothing has can be established from this one snipit where it can be disputed on what is meant. --Redemption 00:23, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Which is exactly why I used "Mary" as an example. "Jaden" may not convey gender to us, but nothing indicates it doesn't in the GFFA.  As to what I'd use, I'd say "he" if Jaden was male and "she" if Jaden was female.  "He" certainly isn't neutral*.  It's specifically the male third person singular pronoun.  That's exactly the purpose of gender marking in language; if I say "I talked to my friend, and he was happy", no one would ever interpret that to mean my friend is female.  Language exists to express meaning, and the meaning of "he" is that the subject is male.  If "he" was gender-neutral, it would also be perfectly valid to say "He was a female" or use the Mary example.  I'll also ask that if someone being called "he" isn't enough proof that they're male, then what is?  Does every character exist in a state of confused gender ambiguity until someone says, "Hello Jaden, you male!" * Footnote: "He" as a definite pronoun, that is, a pronoun referring to one specific subject, is not gender-neutral.  As an indefinite pronoun, as in "Everybody and his brother", where there is no specific antecedent, it is.  In the NEC, it's used specifically to refer to Jaden, thus a definite pronoun and gender-marked. - Lord Hydronium 00:48, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
 * The author could have easily rephrased that without using any pronouns if he/she had truly wished for Jaden's gender to remain ambiguous. ("Jaden Korr's herorics brought an end to the crisis, as well as pride to Master Katarn.") "His" was used purposefully. I'm convinced he's male. SM-716 05:50, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
 * If someone was talking to you and they said, "Ggshsneix made his teacher very proud," would you seriously assume that Ggshsneix was a woman just because you had no idea about the name? Kuralyov 05:46, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
 * No...but I also wouldn't assume it was a man (with a name like that I would assume that he was some weird alien species without any real gender...) I stand by that "him" is ambiguous and you cannot just jump to this conclusion. --Redemption 06:02, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Are we going to have to take a vote on this? Because it looks like it's 7 (including me) to 1 in favor of taking the language literally. &mdash;Darth Culator   (talk)  06:07, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Do whatever your little heart disires. Can't blame anyone but yourselfs if the article assumes something that hasn't been made 100% fact. -Redemption 06:14, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I suspect we won't be surprised if/when they state Jaden's gender more explicitly. &mdash;Darth Culator   (talk)  06:22, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Imagery
Would anyone object to the addition of a few images of Jaden's possible likenesses to the Behind the Scenes section? This is a pretty solid article that just seems kinda bare without any imagery to accompany it. If it's agreed that the New Essential Chronology identifies Jaden as male, I'll limit the pictures to the Kel Dor, Rodian, and human male player models from the game. I'm also kinda wondering if there's some way to add a main image at the top of the article... like something that describes Jaden's character without actually revealing his appearance.... SM-716 20:20, 4 March 2006 (UTC) It hints at a green saber. Not canon. Can't use it.--DannyBoy7783 09:05, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree with SM-716. If someone can come up with something, please let us know!--DannyBoy7783 15:45, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Here's what I came up with as a candidate for the main image... what does everybody think? Would this be acceptable as Jaden's main profile picture? Does it seem like a good solution to the problem, or does it just seem hokey like Nanny from the Muppet Babies? Is it acceptably official and canonical? Is the green lightsaber blade permissable? Does it seem precise enough to be identifiable as the player character from Jedi Academy, while remaining ambiguous enough about his species (or his/her gender, even)? Input is greatly appreciated. But the way I see it is this: male or female, human or alien, one thing is for certain. At one point in his/her life, Jaden definitely wore that puffy Hoth vest. SM-716 06:35, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I think the green blade kills it. I think you are on the right track though.--DannyBoy7783 21:57, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
 * An argument in defense of the green blade:Saber color was definitely something that crossed my mind, but I didn't think the green blade would be wholly objectionable. It seems to me that lightsaber color, particularly in the Expanded Universe, is a minor and negligible detail. Several EU Jedi (most of whom are far more canonical than Jaden Korr) have been portrayed with varying lightsaber colors without any explanation. Adi Gallia's saber is either red, orange, or blue depending on who you ask; Corran Horn has been seen with green, blue, and red sabers; Yun's saber was yellow in Jedi Knight, blue in the novelization, and orange in Mysteries of the Sith. And yet each source is still considered canon. My point is that the offical stance on lightsaber color seems to be about as rigid as it is on pictures of Han Solo with no scar on his chin: it's close enough. If the green saber image is still unacceptable, though, I can try getting a similar picture without the saber, or I could desaturate the existing image to black-and-white. Thoughts? SM-716 05:44, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I see your point SM-716 but we can't go and make up canon just because the current precedent is very loose. If we put that in the article it is saying he had a green saber which isn't the official fact. I would desaturate the image (good idea!). That solves the problem.--DannyBoy7783 20:01, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
 * The thing I was getting at in my argument was that a green saber in a character's picture doesn't necessarily seem to imply that a his saber was canonically green, so pictures aren't always viewed as definitive canonical fact. Still, desaturating the image takes care of the problem either way. So here's where the nit-picky art school dork in me comes out: which image do people prefer, the fully-grayscale one, or the ALMOST grayscale one? I don't think you can tell what color the saber is supposed to be in either one, but I think the slightly-color one is a little more interesting to look at. I'm adding one to Jaden's info box. If anyone disapproves of this, by all means switch 'em or remove it completely or whatever. Exercise your Wikibilities. SM-716 03:14, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
 * We shouldn't imply his saber is green so I'd go with full desaturation for it. Imp removed your image though I noticed.--DannyBoy7783 05:47, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I like the almost grey one better. Eyrezer 08:42, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
 * The saber still looks green to you in the second picture? Wow, you have INCREDIBLE chroma perception-- the world must look like an acid trip to you. Either that, or you have your monitor's color level cranked WAY up.... All kidding aside, though, I thought the saber in the second pic was pretty gray. I took extra care to actually make it grayer than the rest of the image. You can SERIOUSLY still tell it's green? SM-716 21:29, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Perhaps it is because I know the original image is green and it isn't totally desaturated but yes, it does still look a little green to me. also, the jacket looks brown still as well.--DannyBoy7783 04:10, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
 * The jacket can be brown. As was pointed out, the brown jacket is independant of gender and speceis. Eyrezer 08:25, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I never said the brown jacket was a problem. I was just letting him know I could tell it was brown.--DannyBoy7783 22:57, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Imagery, round two
Okay, I'm gonna try again here. The saber is now completely grayed, so as not to suggest one color over another. The image is also cropped a bit closer on Jaden, making it less about the scene and more about the main figure.

Since I haven't gotten a reply yet to my defense of the image on Imp's talk page, I'll lay out a quick breakdown of why I think the Jaden Korr article SHOULD have a profile pic. If anyone has any reasons why the image to the right should not be added to the info box, Now's the time to say so. But it's got MY vote, at least. SM-716 08:03, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
 * It presents canonical information about his appearance. Jaden wields a lightsaber in a style reminiscent of Djem So-- fact. He wore that outfit when he infiltrated Echo Base in 14 ABY-- fact. He faced more than a few Snowtroopers along the way-- fact. This IS Jaden Korr, just like this is Luke Skywalker.
 * It does not suggest any non-canonical information. We are unable to determine Jaden's species from this picture, the color of his saber is unclear, and despite the generally agreed-upon notion that he is canonically male, it cannot be said with 100-percent certainty that the figure in this image is NOT a female in bulky winter clothing.
 * It represents Jaden's current ambiguity. A big part of what makes Jaden intriguing at the moment is the fact that he has no definite species yet. The fact that details such as face and hands are omitted in this image conveys the right sense of interest in the unknown. For contrast, the image over at the Jedi Exile's page kills the sense of intrigue in an otherwise mysterious character.
 * Images simply make an article more interesting to look at. 'Nuff said.
 * I like the pic and agree with your reasoning. I say put it up! Eyrezer 22:06, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
 * If Jaden's really canonically male, then the image is fine and I'll support using it as a profile pic. KEJ 22:22, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I was with you before and I'm still with you now. I vote for it!--DannyBoy7783 22:59, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Added it. Thanks for the feedback, all. SM-716 06:55, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I LOVE this. One of my favorite images in the site. Very clever and the color was handled brilliantly. Great idea and good job, I was pleasantly surprised. --Master Starkeiller 12:42, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
 * If it were in color and cropped a little higher, you could see that Jaden is now blushing.... But I'm glad people like the picture. It was a fun challenge to do, and I'm pretty proud of how it turned out. I wish my PC weren't so old that it can't even run KOTOR II, otherwise I would do a similar image for the Jedi Exile. But hopefully I've inspired someone else to take a crack at it. SM-716 22:00, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
 * The image is non-canon. White lightsabers??? :) MoffRebus 09:52, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Wow........it's grey-scale.--DannyBoy7783 17:12, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Speaking of non-canon.... SM-716 23:40, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
 * It's a good pic and everything...but is there any point to it? We don't have images of character's backs on other pages, so why here? If there's no definitive image for Jaden, we don't put an image on the page - Kwenn 17:20, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Jaden's a special case, so I think it's okay to have a "special image" (the closest thing we get is Revan, but at least Revan has his mask allowing us to use more conventional images of him) KEJ 17:38, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Kwenn: the point was to provide as much definitive information about Jaden's appearance without revealing anything that has yet to be confirmed as canon. Regardless of his species, gender, or saber color, he looked like this on Hoth. Think of it in terms of Nanny from the Muppet Babies: you never needed to see her face to be able to recognize the character, particularly because an official likeness of her face never existed. The picture is as much as can be shown without revealing too much. SM-716 23:40, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Just FYI, I'm pretty sure white lightsabers are canon. Sa Cuis used one. -LtNOWIS 18:17, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
 * About Jaden's species: If Jaden was any of the four species besides human, (in terms of practicality) why would he speak in Galactic Basic Standard in cut scenes where he is talking to himself (i.e. in short monologues)? anon 23:02, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
 * About Jaden's gender: I think there is now enough canonical foundation to stipulate Jaden's gender as male. I think female would have been a better choice given the eminence of female characters in the Dark Forces saga in the past (Jan Ors, Mara Jade Skywalker, Tavion); perhaps Kyle Katarn works best when paired up with a female (in terms of storyline). A female Jaden makes more sense to me than a female Jedi Exile. Que sera, sera. anon 23:08, 29 March 2006 (UTC)