Talk:Revan/Archive2

Spoiler tags
I would like to enquire why we suddenly stopped using the spoiler tags. What happens to Revan is not something you experience everyday and is undoubtedly the twist in the whole KotOR storyline. This is not like Anakin turning Darth Vader, that everyone knows about. I would support inserting a spoiler tag. - TopAce 19:58, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I second the motion... it should come as a shock to the player when first playing KOTOR. -Maphisto86 8:55, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I didn't attract too much attention. No matter, I realized it anyway that the k1char template reveals this anyway, not to mention that there are other articles which mention this. - TopAce 11:51, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Come on, there's a little disclaimer on the main page that says the wiki is full of spoilers. If you need spoiler warnings, read Wikipedia. - Sikon [ Talk ] 09:46, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Lightsabre fighting style
The article reads : "As he is believed to have been a practitioner of the lightsaber Form X, Jar'kai, it is possible that he received some instruction from Master Kavar as well, a known as a master of that form, though Revan was clearly more than competent in the more traditional forms of lightsaber combat also. "

Do we have any proof of this? Yes, as a player character, he can dual wield. But he clearly uses only one sabre in the cinematic. I do believe that being alone against three Jedi would be a good enough reason to take out a second sabre if he was really good with two blades. I know he is shown with two sabres in the KotOR 2 cave, but I do think that the KotOR 1 cinematic is a better reference. -DarthMuffin 9:35, 14 February 2006 (UTC) I don't see what the problem is with him dual-wielding in the KOTOR II vision. Yes, he dual-wields. And Bastila joins Malak in the Mandalorian Wars. And your companions try to kill you and Kreia. It's a vision, not the real Revan. It's canon that the Exile saw a vision of Revan dual wielding in Ludo Kressh's tomb, but that says nothing about Revan himself. The only times we see the actual Revan he has the one blade. - Lord Hydronium 00:57, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I think all information about KOTOR lightsaber forms should be excluded for characters for whom it isn't officially confirmed. It's nothing but speculation. The game engine cannot render lightsaber forms conclusively, and I think even the KOTOR II engine, which includes the forms, renders them identically. - Sikon [ Talk ] 10:35, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I second that. None of the player characters of the KotOR series should be attributed a fighting style anyway (we'll have to check the Exile).  Also, the "Revan's Fall" cinematic in KotOR 1 is a rather solid proof that he might not have been that proficient with Form X.--DarthMuffin 14:22, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
 * As a piece of trivia, the Kotor II vision of Revan uses two sabres. Of course, he's a vision, so who knows. Other canon sources have him use one sabre more often. --Fade 14:24, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
 * It isn't even clear if that vision of Revan is from the past or from the future (I think it's from the past, but some people will disagree). Of course, Duron's vision of a single light blue lightsaber can be just as well erroneous (see discussion about robes, above), but at least it can be precisely dated. As for fighting styles: Kavar, Vrook and Zez-Kai Ell are all masters of Ataru, Shien, Juyo and Niman (which means every master is fluent in all these four forms), Exile can mix up to six forms (for him, Juyo and Niman are mutually exclusive), but doesn't specialize much at any of them. That's basically all we know about all KOTOR characters. - Sikon [ Talk ] 15:00, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeah, the Kotor II stuff is bullshit. We should use Kotor I as reference. Revan wields only one lightsaber.
 * Personally, I've always been hesitant about even using the Master's styles from Kotor II as anything more than a gameplay mechanic. After all, the styles they know are heavily dependent on the Exile; order the planets are completed, Exile's class, etc. The only one I would say could be predicted with some certainty would be Kavar, because he uses two sabers, and there seems to be only one style that deals with two sabers. --Fade 15:26, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
 * So do we have a consensus? We could erase the part referring to the "Jar'Kai" and keep the article in accordance with the cinematics of KotOR 1 (canon) and Duron's vision (canon?).  The fan picture of the two-sabres stance can be left there though; we could just modify the text to make it more general.--DarthMuffin 16:55, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
 * No, we don't. I don't think the information should be deleted but perhaps moved into the Behind the Scenes section along with the picture. Jasca Ducato 18:01, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
 * So, what now? Are we gonna change it? I think we should do it.
 * When I restructured the early portion of the article, I wasn't sure whether to include that reference or not. On the forums/boards I visit, there generally seems to be a consensus that he was capable of the style (explaining the Korriban vision), but that it was not his preferred choice (explaining the cinematic).  I didn't mean to imply that it was his primary style (which is why you have the "though he was clearly more than competant in traditional lightsaber forms also" bit), just that he was suspected to have utilised it, so if that's the way it comes across, then it is right to remove or change it.  Ultimately, I think that him using two blades in the vision was Obsidian being a little silly, but whatever. (195.92.168.173 19:30, 16 February 2006 (UTC)) - Whoops, forgot to log in for this: (Ulicus 20:28, 16 February 2006 (UTC))
 * This wasn't silly, this was crap. Besides, I concur with ya, Ulicus. We could just "mention" the Jar'Kai crap in the "Behind the scenes" section? And we should really get rid of this Jar'Kai stuff.
 * I understand what you mean, Ulicus. But when I first read that part, I was really under the impression that you meant that his favoured style was dual-wield, but that he was also good with one sabre.  --DarthMuffin 21:59, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I'd agree with you Darth Muffin, the more I read it, the more it seems like that to me as well. It's funny, since all I was trying to do was emphasise that "Revan studied under a lot of masters" and hint that he knew Form X without it sounding boring. How about something along these lines as an alternative: "Since he is believed to have learnt/understood/known/mastered, though not favoured, the Lightsaber Form X/whatever, it is possible he recieved some instruction from Master Kavar blah de blah - continue as normal"? If people would *really* prefer it to be moved entirely into a behind the scenes section, then so be it - but ideally only cut and move the Form X/Kavar stuff out of the paragraph, I think the other "learning under Zhar/Kae other masters" stuff works well as it is.(Ulicus 00:25, 17 February 2006 (UTC))
 * I'm not entirely sure if it's a good idea to completely move it to behind the scenes, since Revan does use two sabres in the K2 cave. Even though we all seem to agree that this was a rubbish scene, it's still in the game.  To clear out any confusion, we could try something like : "Revan might have studied under Master Kavar, since he appears to be proficient with the lightsaber combat Form X.  However, he seems to favour the dueling techniques of the single saber".  Or something among these lines.  That being said, I'm a long time opposer to any kind of Star Wars dual wielding, and I really wouldn't mind tossing Form X out of the window.  --DarthMuffin 01:51, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Right, I've changed it. Since we've only got one scene that shows pre-mindwipe Revan using a single lightsaber, and only one scene showing a (presumed) vision of a premindwiped Revan using two sabres - to justify claiming he favo(u- I'm english goddammit!)red one blade over two, I've drawn attention to the fact that he was facing multiple opponents when on his flagship which is whe-... Ok, now that I think about it, since using one blade helps defensively and using two helps offensively... maybe he used two blades when facing one opponent (as in the Exile's vision) and one when facing multiple... I mean, he's a master tactician, he'd probably change his style and approach to suit the situation. This calls for a slight edit - brb. (Ulicus 00:20, 20 February 2006 (UTC))
 * Ok, so now it's: "Even so, by the time of his supposed 'death' on board his flagship years later, Revan seemed to have favored the use of a single lightsaber for dealing with multiple opponents." That way, we're dealing strictly with what we know from the game as opposed to what we prefer. In the only instance of seeing a non PC Revan fight multiple opponents, he used one blade. In the only instance of seeing a non PC (albeit vision) Revan face one opponent, he used two. Thoughts? Is this good enough? Too much in favour of Jar'Kai? (Muffin, I sypathise with your dislike of dual-wielding, but it's in the highest form of canon there is... so no windows, ok? :) ) (Ulicus 00:31, 20 February 2006 (UTC))
 * Yeah, you're right, Hydronoium. The Kotor II Scene is crap, especially Revan wielding two lightsabers. And no, he shouldn't have two sabers (It's ONLY a vision of the Exile.). Look at the "Shadow and Light"-Comic and you'll see him wielding one lightsaber. So forget this stupid two lightsabers thing and consider him wielding always one lightsaber.

Alright, this is kind of going nowhere right now. We all seem to agree that a change is needed, yet we do nothing. Ulicus, I'm not really comfortable with the "dealing with multiple opponents" part. I know that the mechanics of KotOR make it so that a single blade will give more defense, but if I were outnumbered by three Jedi, I would really consider using a second sabre if I was really comfortable with dual-wielding. Let's deal with facts : we only have one canon reference of Revan with a lightsabre in hands, and that's on the bridge of his flagship. In this particular scene, he happens to use a single sabre. I therefore suggest that we clearly state that his preferred style of combat was the single sabre. No more, no less. Form X can be kept in the main artcile (such as "Revan might also have been proficient with the use of two sabres at the same time, though he clearly preferred duelling combat"). Or we can choose to toss it in the behind the scenes section, and include a small paragraph to explain why we decided to put it there. Either way, we need to move on. --DarthMuffin 22:24, 22 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Since nobody replied, I concluded that we had reached a consensus. I have modified the "Jedi Training" section so that it now states that Revan favoured the use of a single lightsabre.  The Jar'kai content has been moved (with a mention of the Exile's vision) to the "Behind the Scenes" section, right next to the Jar'Kai picture.  --DarthMuffin 18:08, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I'll reply, the man against dual wielding. U did a good job, DarthMuffin. Since we all know that he wields only one lightsaber, we should concentrate on making the main picture better, see topic below :D.
 * Oh, and btw, we have two sources showing us that he wields only one lightsabre: the first is the cutscene; the second is in the comic "Shadows and Light (vision to Duron Qel-Droma)".
 * I forgot that one. I'll add it right away.
 * I'm not always around (hence lack of responses), but I'm cool with how this ended up. Personally, I've always thought Revan knew every lightsaber form - because, Mr "Lust for knowledge" that he was, he was pretty much bound to - but favoured single sabers. (Ulicus 19:53, 4 March 2006 (UTC))
 * Yeah, you're absolutely right, Ulicus. His lust for knowledge is as big as Palps lust for controlling the universe. And, ya know, the best fighters always have one lightsaber; except maybe Exar Kun (Darth Maul isn't that good). Maybe he has his own style of fighting?

Image
Redemption 21:42, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Can someone identify a source for the Jar'Kai sketch? I remember I once thought about adding it a long while ago, but wasn't sure whether it was fan art. If it is, it has no place here. We have it labelled as concept art, but where is originally from? --Fade 19:32, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
 * It definately is a concept art of some sort. I think a copy of it can be found on . It is of Jar'kai however, that i know for certain.
 * I concur with DarthMuffin, but the main picture should be changed as soon as we have a better picture. Back to topic, the Jar'Kai-style stuff shall be removed and replaced by other setences; I'm convinced someone can express that according to the conversation.
 * What's wrong with the main image? --Fade 20:15, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, the two lightsabers are disturbing and it's ingame-graphic. The images of Malak, Palpi, Vader, etc. are far better. Let's just keep an eye open for better pictures; and now, we still want to change the Jar'Kai stuff, don't we?
 * The reason it's the best image we have is because there aren't many good Revan pics around. --Fade 20:30, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
 * You're absolutely right, Fade. That's why I was writing "Let's just keep an eye open for better pictures" ;-).
 * Not sure if this is the best quality or if its too dark. But...here ya go.
 * I actually quite like that picture. The darkness adds to his "mystique". But my above statement still stands. Jasca Ducato 21:50, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I like the picture, too.
 * It'd be perfect if it the quality was turned up a notch. --Imp 22:51, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure if I can up the quality but perhaps if the image is sized down a little then it'll show better quality. Redemption 03:14, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Where did you get the image from. If i know the where the original file is then i may be able to pixilate a decent image for use. Jasca Ducato 09:35, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
 * ...You can barely see anything in it. We don't want a testement to Revan's chameleonic powers, do we? --Fade 11:59, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeah, the picture would be perfect, if the quality would be turned up; I concur with Imerpialles. What now?
 * To tell you the truth, its an image of my own. Created from the model files in the game in Gmax. Redemption 13:41, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Working on it as we speak. Jasca Ducato 13:50, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Sorry, but i cant find anyway of sorting out the resolution on the image or pixelating it. If somebody does no a way can you leave a notice here for me, then i should be able to do it. Until then can people please support me when i tell Rodtheanimegod4ever not to keep changing the main image to [[Media:Revan.jpg|this crap Taris one]]. Jasca Ducato 14:22, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I really like Redemption's pic, if it can be enhanced then I'm all for it being used. Having said that, I've just uploaded a pic myself, unfortunately, given my PC spec the graphical quality isn't as good as it could be. Perhaps someone could take a similar screenshot on a higher end machine? Ulicus 20:25, 16 February 2006 (UTC))
 * I did the best I could in the quality...its a little better at least... Redemption 22:40, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
 * It's good Redemption. But i don't like the fact that his legs disappear into the background. As for Ulicus' image. I might be able to ge a decent image. Luckily i keep a saved game set just before the duel with Malak while set on darkside. Jasca Ducato 09:07, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Try a couple (I mean, if you don't mind :) ) I was just thinking it might be better to have a shot of him just *before* that part - when the camera is focused on his upper body (the part where you'd usually see him 'gloating wickedly' if you've not got the robes hacked in)... but maybe people want a full body shot, I dunno. S'up to you. (Ulicus 13:09, 17 February 2006 (UTC))
 * Are there ANY objections to the new black background Revan image? Is the quality good enough? Redemption 00:35, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Although i like the picture i would have to object. The main reason being the quality of the image. If someone can provide me with a decent program to do that or at least a link then i will do it. Jasca Ducato 21:02, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, I could try to make a in-game picture with high detail, AA and the other thing on, cause i got a powerful machine. But i dont promise u anything, cause i havent installed kotor yet. (and i dont have a savegame before the duel with malak. maybe i should try warp codes...)[[Image:Revanfull.png|thumb|right]]
 * Well i've just got a new image program (YAY!!!) and as you can see i've editied one of the pictures offered up. What do you think?

The picture on the left has been sharpened and the contrast put up (or down i cant remember). So what do you think? Jasca Ducato 18:16, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Unfortunatly, thats one of the problems. The first image looked too scratched up. I'll try to get an in-game shot and then edit what should be edited. Redemption 00:43, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
 * To be honest considering how much of a pain Revan is being to us, even after 5,000 years of being dead, i think that one of the best we're going to get. Jasca Ducato 09:17, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Actually now i look at the picture to the right of this, the quality on that image is very good. The only problem is he's facing the side. If you can get that one looking forward then that's excellent. Jasca Ducato 09:20, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeah, we should finish the image problem. My problem is that I haven't installed KotOR on my machine and therefor can't make good pictures of Revan. The pictures above are good; one of them has the wrong perspective we see Revan and the other one's ingame-detail is too low.
 * Profile image perhaps? Being that its been a couple of days since I first asked if it was alright, I'm goingt to assume that it is.--Redemption 00:24, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
 * The picture you have uploaded is pixelatd, blurry, and WAY too dark. Furthermore, its obvious that the contrast has been increased far too much. The previous pic was of much better quality. I don't mean to be overly negative, but this pic just isn't good enough...--Sentry 23:50, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I concur with ya, Sentry. I like the picture where Revan's crossing his arms; that's an ingame-shot. But the ingame details should be very high to do it. ---The Man who Sentry wanted to sign his comments---
 * The funny thing is, the images of the article are very good; but we have a problem finding a very good main image -.-. :D ---The Man who Sentry wanted to sign his comments---
 * You see? This is why I asked and gave several times for someone to object before I changed it...--Redemption 23:51, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

What a mess
Does anyone think this article is bloated and unfocused? (Not to mention speculative and biased) It is supposed to be about Revan, NOT the entire Jedi Civil War OR Knights of the Old Republic. Those articles already exist and are, for the most part, better written. This needs some drastic trimming. --Sentry 01:32, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Revan is the most important character in both the Jedi Civil War and the first KotOR game. It makes sense to include information about the conflict and the game.  Since he also happens to be the player character of KotOR, there is a lot of information about him that needs to be included and discussed.  And most (all?) of the information included about the Jedi Civil War and KotOR relates to Revan in a way or another.  I certainly do not think that this article is a mess.--DarthMuffin 02:05, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Either way, I am going to start editing out portions of the text that have nothing to do with Revan. If they are relevant and interesting, I will move them to the Jedi Civil War article.--Sentry 07:40, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Whoa. I'm not overkeen on some of these changes, though that may just be my attachment to the stuff I wrote coming through. It's the edit/s made to "Jedi Training" in particular that bothers me.

Original stuff: "Initially his instruction was undertaken by Jedi Master Kreia on Coruscant, yet Revan's appetite to learn proved insatiable, and he and his friend Malak were soon visiting Jedi Master, Zhar Lestin, for additional training. This love of knowledge did not go unnoticed by the elder Jedi, yet he dismissed it as simple exuberance and eagerness, seeing in Revan a future champion of the Jedi Order."

In time, Revan left Kreia's tutelage entirely, going on to study beneath numerous Jedi Masters, including the aforementioned Zhar, Master Dorak and Master Kae. 

New stuff: ''Revan was taught by numerous Jedi Masters during his youth including Masters Kreia, kae, Dorak, and Zhar Lestin. Revan's appetite to learn proved insatiable. This love of knowledge did not go unnoticed by the elder Jedi, yet they dismissed it as simple exuberance, seeing in Revan a future champion of the Jedi Order.''

Is the original version 'bloated'? Perhaps - I mean, there's certainly more of it, but I feel (and if I'm in the minority, speak up folks) that it makes the subject matter engaging as well as accurate. I'm really not a fan of brevity for its own sake (unless there's a word count, which there isn't as far as I know), especially if it actually cuts information that deserves a mention, like Revan's training on Coruscant.

There are too many people are under the impression that Revan was trained exclusively on Dantooine and the article should be saying, "Hey, you know, that isn't the case". Zhar specifically states: "When I was still on Coruscant, Revan and Malak often came to me for additional training"


 * I trimmed it because the info was NOT accurate. Never once is it confirmed that Kreia was Revan's first master. I got rid of the Coruscant info simply because it did not seem to be relevant... --Sentry 05:31, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
 * That's a reasonable position to take, though I certainly feel it's *implied* that Kreia was his first teacher. (Ulicus 21:24, 7 March 2006 (UTC))

The stuff changed in the Mandalorian Wars section doesn't concern me so much, though I'm curious as to how we now know with *certainty* that Revan discovered Malachor V "late in the wars". I was almost certain that every time its mentioned, it's just said "Revan found this place during the Mandalorian Wars". Maybe I'm wrong, but I'd like the source (New Essential Guide to chronology perhaps?), since otherwise it's speculation.


 * Ya, that was an error on my part. In fact, it is quite likely that Revan found it early in the war...--Sentry 05:31, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm also a little peeved that the Jedi Council now "refuses" to give aid. They do *not* refuse to give aid. They refuse to give *immediate* aid. "The Jedi flat out refused to help" is one of the biggest misconceptions Joe Bloggs takes from Knights of the Old Republic.

Bastila - "In time we would have helped in the fight against the Mandalorians..." (wtte, speaking to Carth about the Jedi Council's decisions)

The whole point is you have a contrast between the immediate aid Revan offers, "The quick and easy path" and the gradual help promised by the Council. It's a metaphor for the dark and light sides of the Force. The Republic (understandably) chose the "quick and easy path", Revan, which ultimately led to the new Sith rising and stomping all over them. Did they have to choose Revan? Could they afford to wait for the Council? That's another debate entirely.


 * The Jedi Council DID refuse to help. The fact that they intended to help later is irrelevant and pure speculation on Bastila's part since she definately was not in a position to learn the Master's intentions first-hand. In any case, KOTOR:TSL heavily hints that if Revan had not gotten involved, the Republic would have fallen. So, Revan's decision is not so black and white as the first game makes it appear. --Sentry 05:31, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Fair enough. Dorak simply says that the Council were considering all the factors before letting themselves be drawn into the conflict and preaching patience - actions that led the rest of the galaxy to believe they'd simply refused to help. Which, I suppose they had. (Ulicus 21:24, 7 March 2006 (UTC))

Ultimately, I took umbridge with the suggestion that the article was "a mess", even though you seemed to be talking more about areas that I'd contributed little more than a paragraph to (Jedi Civil War/KotOR info). That said, your user-page made me smile widely, so what little pangs of irritation I felt are long gone. Apologies if I've seemed overly confrontational. Oh, and if the majority disagree with what I've said, feel free to give me a big internet-slap. ;) (Ulicus 19:44, 4 March 2006 (UTC))
 * Yeah; we shouldn#t let the people change so many things without our agreement. Let's just make the article good.
 * Right, I've added an appropriate quote to the "Jedi Training" section and tried to make the text a little more dynamic without making it 'bloated' - as I'll have to admit the original version was, despite my fondness for it. That said, I'm still not keen on the order in which the Jedi Masters Revan trained under are given to us, it gives the impression that he went from Kreia to Kae (though I think they're the same person, so...), to Dorak to Zhar. We know that Revan had 'additional' training from Zhar while on Coruscant, which implies that he was actually studying under another master at the time (presumably Kreia) and we know that he eventually left Kreia and Coruscant to go study under a host of different masters. (Ulicus 13:35, 6 March 2006 (UTC))


 * Why do people keep reverting my rewritten intro? It is far more complete and accurate than the old one. If people are worried about spoilers, they should remember that the policy on this wiki is that spoiler warnings are only supposed to remain up for a year after a product's release.--Sentry 05:35, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Never mind, forget it. I think I'll abandon work on this article. Its not worth the aggravation... The article is too heavily trafficked by annons and it seems to be guarded by a host of well-meaning former contributors. --Sentry 05:41, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Don't be put off just because the stuff you write gets contested, it's been too long since this article has been put under any serious scrutiny and there *are* parts that are bloated and/or messy. Sure, I got a bit uppity at the start when my long standing Jedi Training stuff got messed around with - but hey, it was bloated and it allowed me to re-evaluate it. I agree with the issue of spoilers - I don't think there are any Star Wars fans out there that don't know that you play as Darth Revan in KotOR. No Star Wars fans that know about Wookiepedia anyway. (Ulicus 21:24, 7 March 2006 (UTC))


 * Alright, thanks for the pat on the back Ulicus. I am going to start posting controversial portions of the article here for discussion:


 * Oh, come on, guys, we just wanna finish this article, don't we? Revan is the main factor for many things happened during his career. Say something ^^ --The Man who Sentry wanted to sign his comments--

Intro
OLD: Revan was a fallen Jedi and Dark Lord of the Sith. He lived 40 years after the Great Sith War and the fall of Exar Kun, or 3,956 BBY. Revan sought what many considered to be the complete annihilation of the Galactic Republic, a tendency later followed on by his apprentice Darth Malak.


 * Breif, vague, and inaccurate.--Sentry 23:29, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Agree strongly. Even if spoilers are still not going to be allowed, we need something better than this. (Ulicus 13:56, 8 March 2006 (UTC))

NEW: Revan was a Jedi that was corrupted by the dark side during the Mandalorian Wars. Crowning himself Dark Lord of the Sith, he founded a powerful new Sith Empire which he utilized to invade the Galactic Republic, thereby sparking a conflict known as the Jedi Civil War. At the height of his power, the Jedi set a trap for Darth Revan and he was captured, in part, due to the betrayal of his apprentice Darth Malak. Once in their custody, the Jedi Council opted to replace the Sith Lord's identity with one loyal to the Republic. Given a second chance, Revan redeemed himself by abandoning the dark side, defeating Malak, and ending the very war that he had begun.

"but it's more a summary than ... an introduction" That's what they're meant to be. Check out Anakin Skywalker's for example - it gives a brief outline of his character and what happened to him, then launches into the biography. (Ulicus 18:02, 10 March 2006 (UTC))
 * A little long perhaps, but at least it provides a summary of the major events of Revan's life...--Sentry 23:29, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I love it and I've no problem with the spoilers. I think convincing others of this will be more difficult however. Good luck. (Ulicus 13:56, 8 March 2006 (UTC))
 * I'm not against a new intro, but I don't like this one; the old one is as far as we haven't got better ones better than this.
 * Can you state what is wrong with it so we can rewrite it? If not, then, by all means, write your own and post it here. Oh, and please sign your comments. --Sentry 22:42, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Hmm, well, but it's more a summary than ... an introduction :D. ... hmm, i don't know ... meditate, on this, i will. ---The man who Sentry wanted to sign his comments---
 * You can sign and date your comments by using four tilde keys ( ~ ). That is, unless you are worried about displaying your IP address to the world, in which case, you should probably just create an account...--Sentry 07:08, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Ouh, wanna lure me to the dark side, don't ya? :D. Well, you won't convert me as u did my father:D. --- What do others say about the intro(s)? --The Man who Sentry wanted to sign his comments--

Mandalorian Wars
OLD QUOTE: "Many of the young Jedi admired Revan."

- Zhar Lestin


 * This quote is out of place and rather pointless.--Sentry 23:29, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

NEW: "Only Revan was worthy of our respcect. We swept throught the Outer Rim without opposition - until Revan assumed command of the Republic forces. Only then did the battle turn."

- Canderous Ordo


 * I think this quote is more appropriate.--Sentry 23:29, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I'd agree. My original reasoning for the quotes was to back up things I felt would be contended in the text proper. For example, I feared the "a sizable cult of personality" (which when you consider everything that's said about him in the game, seems to be correct), would be moved out - so I used Zhar's statement to try and reinforce that point. I also liked how it 'linked' between the "Jedi Training" section and the Mando section. It was really more of an 'opening' to Revan's part in the Mando Wars, as opposed to a summary of it - "Many of the young Jedi admired Revan..." which leads into them following him, which leads into etc etc. I'm cool with the change though.(Ulicus 13:28, 8 March 2006 (UTC))
 * Side note: Disregarding the quotes to talk about the section proper for a moment, I'm not sure about giving Malak props for being "admired" for his charisma - one assumes he must have been charismatic, but the one who was *admired* for exceptional charisma was Revan - Malak was more admired for being gung-ho, relentless and a badass. Someone the soliders could look up to. Revan was the silver-tongued leader, the one who most (well, if we take Atton's word) considered to have "saved" them. The Bioware site says Malak was admired for "fierce courage and relentless fury at the forefront of every battle", so a change from "charisma" to "courage" would not go unamiss. So... that's what I'm changing it to...(Ulicus 14:22, 8 March 2006 (UTC))
 * Yeah, Canderous' quotes are some of the best.
 * I hope ya don't mind, I added this quote to the article. It's better than the previous one; however, we must still talk about the other quotations.
 * Good work! I don't mean to harp on this, but it is considered rude not to sign your comments even if you are an annon.--Sentry 22:54, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Jedi Civil War
"After Malachor, after the Mandalorian Wars, that's when the Sith teachings started spreading through the ranks."

- Atton Rand

"The Jedi Civil War destroyed the Jedi. By the war's end, barely a hundred Jedi remained. Many fell in battle... and many more were seduced by Revan's teachings."
 * We need a better quote than this. It has little to do with Revan nor even the Jedi Civil War section which it is meant to introduce...--Sentry 23:45, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Again, this was mainly to do with the "linking and leading into..." stance for each of the quotes I was using at the time, and as a way of enforcing the previous section's assertation that Revan turned to the dark side and Sith *during* the Mandalorian Wars (whereas the previous version of the article had mainted that he didn't become a Sith until right after the wars - I'd think one would have to be quite familar with Sith teachings before you could start spreading them throughout the ranks with any sort of conviction). It seemed to be the quote that best linked "Mandalorian Wars" to "Jedi Civil War" - I'd still like it to be included somewhere in the article (or maybe put somewhere in the Jedi Civil War article if its not there already, I'll check later), but right at the beginning of the Jedi Civil War section isn't necessary. (Ulicus 13:48, 8 March 2006 (UTC))
 * I have no problem with the quote at all. In fact, I like it a lot and am trying to find a place for it in the Jedi Civil War and Sith Empire (Jedi Civil War) articles. I just think that it is out of place in this particular article. I am currently searching for some different quotes. I know Carth had some interesting things to say upon Revan's arrival on Taris and Dorak also had some good quotes on Dantooine.--Sentry 22:51, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

- Kreia

How about that? I'll keep looking for some others - I've used Kreia a lot already(Ulicus 01:17, 9 March 2006 (UTC)) "Three years ago, Revan and Malak returned at the head of a massive invasion fleet. Revan had assumed the title of Sith Lord; the hero had become a conqueror."

- Dorak

And there's another one, though it's not really as good as the previous one imo. It's also information already covered elsewhere in the article (Revan assuming the title of Sith Lord, hero becoming conquerer) and isn't really a summary. As an introduction however, it's ok...(Ulicus 01:27, 9 March 2006 (UTC))
 * I kinda like this one, but the other one is good too. ;) --Sentry 07:31, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Actually, despite it being Kreia *again*, I *really* think that her's is the most appropriate quote - it both directly references Revan and gives a sense of the conflict's scale. I'm going to be a little brazen and add it to the article - feel free to change back if neccessary{Ulicus 01:33, 9 March 2006 (UTC))

If Kreia's comments aren't liked, here's what Carth has to say on the matter, obviously we wouldn't use *all* of it, but I'm just plopping it here:

"Revan and Malak were heroes. I was damn proud to have served in their fleet. It was completely unexpected when they turned on us, invading the Republic while we were still weak. Nobody knew what to think, least of all me. Our heroes had become brutal, conquering Sith... and we were all but helpless before them. Think about it... if you can't even trust the best of the Jedi, who can you trust?"

- Carth

(Ulicus 03:49, 9 March 2006 (UTC))

OLD: Evidence from acquaintances of Revan point out that he, during the Wars, discovered something outside the realm of the Old Republic: the original Sith Empire, believed to have collapsed millennia ago. In learning this, they say, Revan felt compelled to protect the Galaxy from this threat. Under this revelation and others, Revan's actions become quite different than the rash, destructive goals of Darth Malak and other, later, Sith. These include:


 * Ignoring, militarily, any planet with a strong industrial infrastructure: one that would be required to defend the Galaxy against the unknown threat. Revan's plan was to leave the Old Republic's infrastructure intact, giving him a relatively functional military and economy to work with once he had conquered the Galaxy, rather than starting from scratch. Also, had he failed in conquering the Galaxy, the end result would have remained: a stronger, more capable Republic.
 * Use of assassin droids, such as HK-47, to assassinate those who would have destabilized local governments, planets, or entire sectors.
 * Focus on conversion, rather than murder, of Jedi. In joining the dark side (or at the very least, abandoning the constrictive Jedi teachings), these Dark Jedi would be stronger against the ancient Sith Empire.
 * Does anyone else think that a bulleted list in the middle of an article is tacky and unprofessional?--Sentry 23:29, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm not a fan of it (not at that point in the article anyway). Originally, I'd intended to completely overhaul the entire article - but seeing that it was a "Featured Article", I realised that would be pretty risky. So I just rewrote the Early Life/Mandalorian Wars stuff, and the first paragraph of JCW, (you can see my rather arrogant pronouciation further up on the talk page) to gauge whether or not I'd successfully be able to rewrite more of it. As it happens, real life picked up again (albeit briefly) and I stopped being bothered. It's since fallen into a bit of a lull as of late, which is why I'm back :) (Ulicus 13:48, 8 March 2006 (UTC))

NEW: Revan's campaign, while bloody, was orchestrated to topple the Republic with a minimum of harm to its underlying industiral infrastructure. Under his leadership, Sith forces bypassed militarily vital planets that would be required for the defense of the Galaxy against the threat of the True Sith. Revan's plan was to keep the Republic largely intact for the purposes of post-war rebuilding. As such, he could begin his rule with a relatively functional military and economy rather than starting from scratch. Also, had he failed in conquering the galaxy, the end result would be much the same: a stronger Republic, more capable of defending itself.

Revan pioneered new Sith tactics relying on secrecy rather than brute force. His Sith Assassins quietly flooded into the Republic from their base on Malachor V to kill and abduct Jedi throughout known space. Revan reestablished strongholds and academies upon worlds of ancient power such as Rakata Prime, Dxun, and Korriban. In these dark places, his most faithful servants broke captured Jedi and converted them to the dark side. Revan also utilized assassin droids, such as HK-47, to eliminate the most dangerous threats to his rule.

With Revan at the helm, the Sith forged vital alliances to expedite the support and deployment of their forces. They conspired with the Czerka Corporation, one of the richest and most powerful galaxy-spanning companies of the time, to amass much needed resources and they secured diplomatic relations with the ocean planet of Manaan so that they were able to export the healing agent kolto.
 * How is that? Its a little long and the third paragraph probably is not necessary, but its more informative and much better looking than the old version.--Sentry 23:31, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I much prefer it to the previous version and it's very well written. That said, I don't think Revan would utilise assassin droids to eliminate the "*most* dangerous" threats to his rule, leaving it as simple "threats to his rule", or just "dangerous threats" to his rule would probably be closer to the truth. I'm pleased that there is acknowledgement of the campaign being "bloody" - since Carth makes it quite clear that Malak *resumed* the bloody conquest of the outer worlds. (Ulicus 01:07, 9 March 2006 (UTC))
 * Ok, I've put it in the article proper (again, if there are any reasonable objections to it, let it be removed) with only three changes: "with a minimum of harm" doesn't make sense to me ("with a minimal amount of harm" perhaps?), but maybe it's an americanism - so it has become: "while doing little damage". I've kept the bit about stability that was in the "list version" when referencing HK-47, so we've got: "eliminate threats to the stability of his fledging Sith Empire." And I changed "industiral" to "industrial" ;) Other than that, it's all your stuff. Good job! Now the stuff that comes after needs brushing up...(Ulicus 01:56, 9 March 2006 (UTC))

Revan and Malak separately knew of the Star Forge's almost sentient nature. It wanted to exist and was willing to go to any lengths to keep itself "alive". Whereas Malak, like the Rakata before him, allowed himself to be corrupted by it utterly - one could almost say that the Star Forge actually took control of him, Revan minimised his exposure to it. Also, Revan didn't want to become over-reliant on the Star Forge; once its existance was exposed to his enemies, it would become the number one target hence a strategy of trying to capture planets rather than eradicate them.
 * Not only is this paragraph poorly phrased, but it is also wildly speculative. Where does this info come from?--Sentry 23:29, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree about the phrasing but some (- I'm not sure about that "taking control of Malak" thing) of the actual details are heavily implied during KotOR 1 & 2, if not directly stated. We know that the Star Forge is linked to the cataclysm that befell the Rakata and that Revan only intended to use the Star Forge for a limited time... or at least we "know" that's what other characters think (who may be speculating themselves) (Ulicus 13:48, 8 March 2006 (UTC))

Revan's Height?
I'm not sure about using the in-game graphics to provide Revan's height, anymore than one would use the in-game graphics to come to the conclusion that: "in 3956 BBY, many citizens of the galaxy shared the same face despite having no relation to one another". In KotOR 1 there are only three heights for males and females, 'scoundrel height', 'scout height' and 'soldier height' - with all non recruitable NPCS (and cutscene Revan) being at the "scout height" for their gender. In KotOR 2, there is only the "scout height" for everyone except Sion and Nilihus. Insofar as 'canon' is concerned, I think there would have been more variance.

That said, I've always been slightly miffed by the "Malak is 6 foot 6 inches" official line, because he looks *well* taller than Darth Vader. Obviously, how tall he looks is revelative to the company he keeps, but I can't really accept that pretty much *everyone* in the 3956 BBY Star Wars galaxy is Luke Skywalker's height. (Ulicus 13:55, 6 March 2006 (UTC))
 * Revan seemed rather short in the cutscenes, but in-game, he looked much taller - TopAce 15:29, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Error in Gender Section
Whoa! Whats this:

"In KOTOR II, if the player chooses not to define Revan's gender during an important conversation with Atton Rand, the game sets Revan to a light-side female by default."

Simply not true. As I hate the part where Atton jumps the gun with the "Revan's a female" bit (if I'm playing after a KotoR I game where I was male that is), I never let him say it - instead saying flat out "I don't care about Revan" before he launches into it. The game then *always* automatically sets Revan as light-side male.

Now, maybe it gets set as light-side female if you hear Atton say "her" and *then* refuse to define Revan's gender, but if you skip past that part of the conversation entirely, it's always LSM. Gah. I don't know why there needed to be a canon gender or ending anyway, it's ridiculous and makes Obsidian's efforts to try and not walk over player choices meaningless. (Ulicus 03:41, 9 March 2006 (UTC))
 * Correct it, then, no need to discuss it on the talk page. (I don't know who added that in the first place.) - Sikon [ Talk ] 05:48, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
 * It needs to be addressed on the talk page because people keep reverting Revan to a female by default. I corrected it in my rewrite a few days ago and I am getting tired of fixing the repeated vandalism. LSM is the default choice if you decide not to provide a gender. Period. The person who keeps messing with this section needs to replay the game and do a little research. --Sentry 07:00, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

It should read like this:

Gender
While Revan's gender is specified by the player, the canonical Revan is confirmed by Leland Chee to be male. Also, The New Essential Chronology and the Chronicles of the Old Republic, published prior to the release of The Sith Lords, both refer to Revan as male. It must be noted, however, that many KotOR fans protest the idea of setting an official canonical gender and they are unlikely to recognise any attempt to do so.

In KOTOR II, if the player chooses not to define Revan's gender during an important conversation with Atton Rand, the game sets Revan to a light-side male by default. However, if the player does choose to provide a gender, it is notable that Atton, at first, assumes Revan to be female. The actual physical appearance of the character has not been defined in continuity.

Canonicity/Canonization/Canonness
I've read the Abel Pena article regarding Revan, other than that, I know nothing of the "Official" story of Revan. Can anyone give sources (online or otherwise) for any official info on Revan? Lonnyd 14:03, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Maybe the game itself? --The Man who Sentry wanted to sign his comments--
 * Well, you see, the game can have many different outcomes. Revan can be a male, a female, a darksider or a lightsider, he can be african-alderaanian or caucasian.  I was looking more for things outside of the game.  Thanks for the helpful comment though. Lonnyd 21:42, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Check out Chronicles of the Old Republic. I think it is the only official source that tells Revan's story besides the NEC.--Sentry 22:37, 10 March 2006 (UTC)