Talk:Sith/Legends

Structural Revision
I hate the way the Dark Lords and generic Sith are organised on this page... does anyone care if I do a major reorganisation, dumping, among other things, the chronological listings? QuentinGeorge 06:46, 12 May 2005 (UTC)
 * It might be good to do it on a temp page first, and then post a link for the community to see, rather than making a massive, one time change. --SparqMan 06:50, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

Move to Sith Order
Should we move this over to Sith Order to better distinguish it from the Sith race? -- SFH 17:44, 15 Oct 2005 (UTC)
 * I agree, howver this would mean that Jedi should be moved to Jedi Order. Jasca Ducato 18:54, 23 Oct 2005 (UTC)
 * No, there is no Jedi race, so it doesn't matter. - Alpha Fire 21:22, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I too disagree. This article is about the Sith, in general, not one of the three Sith orders. In fact, Sith Order should be taken out of the intro section and replaced by Sith. On another note, I am considering making Sith Order a disabmiguity page due to the fact that its redirect does not really make sense anymore. The page would list the Brotherhood of Darkness, Brotherhood of the Sith, and Sith Order (Bane). Thoughts? --Sentry 04:18, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Definitely not. In fact, there shouldn't even be a "Sith Order (Bane)" because Palpatine makes it clear in Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader that the Sith Order died on Ruusan, and ever since Bane and his descendents are something else. Kuralyov 04:24, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
 * At this point, I am not even sure there ever was a group that called themselves the Sith Order. Maybe its just fanon...--Sentry 04:34, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

Move History to separate page?
It seems as though this article is one big history lesson, with no mention of the Sith's practices, beliefs, or any other information (other than the Code at the top). How would everyone feel about moving the history to a separate page? The main Sith page could then hold more information on who the Sith were and what they did. This would also be consistent with the Jedi History page, which remains a separate page from the Jedi Order. --Culix 04:07, 6 Oct 2005 (UTC)
 * I agree. Both this and the Jedi page as severely lacking on actual 'examinations of the order. QuentinGeorge 06:51, 25 Oct 2005 (UTC)
 * Done. Now we can begin refining the history page separately. --Culix 19:54, 2 Nov 2005 (UTC)

Post-NJO Sith source?

 * "Following the Yuuzhan Vong invasion, however, Jedi Knight Kyle Katarn encountered a Force-strong Yuuzhan Vong female in the mysterious Cloak of the Sith region of the galaxy, where it was rumored that post-Palpatine Sith still lived. Powerful though she was, Kyle sensed an even darker hand behind her training. Apparently, this Yuuzhan Vong had a Master . . ."
 * From this article. Is there a source for this? 'Cause it smells like fanon. --Imp 02:07, 5 Aug 2005 (UTC)


 * That's from the Wizard's of the Coast website. The Dark Forces articles. -- 63.245.159.27
 * By golly, it is. --Imp 02:29, 5 Aug 2005 (UTC)

Code
Is the last line of the Sith Code "The Force shall free me", ot is it "The Force shall set me Free"? User:SFH

Do we have any sources for where the Code actually originated from? Was it invented by Xendor or perhaps compiled over time? --Culix 06:23, 1 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * I think it's "free me". --Master Starkeiller 01:42, 28 Aug 2005 (UTC)
 * In KOTOR it's "Set me free". User:Darthnemesis555
 * Definately not Xendor, as he was never a Sith Lord. QuentinGeorge 08:24, 1 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * That doesn't mean he couldn't have invented the code. It might have originally been a Dark Jedi code that was slowly absolved by the Sith. I think the chances of it being created by Xendor are pretty high. Jasca Ducato 15:36, 1 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * I agree with Jasca. While he may not have formed it, it may have been partially based on his meditations. As for the source, this code comes from KOTOR. -- SFH 06:43, 6 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * Sorry, maybe I didn't phrase my question correctly. I realize that the code showed up in KOTOR IRL, but I meant to ask if we had any in universe mention of who thought it up. Perhaps nothing official has ever been said? --Culix 06:16, 7 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * Oh. No, nothing in universe has been said. -- SFH 15:10, 7 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * Err, not that i know off. Sorry. Jasca Ducato 19:54, 9 Nov 2005 (UTC)


 * Um, there's a different Sith Code out there.

There is no fear, there is power. There is no death, there is immortality. There is no weakness, there is the Dark Side. I am the Heart of Darkness. I know no fear, But rather I instill it in my enemies. I am the destroyer of worlds. I know the power of the Dark Side. I am the fire of hate. All the Universe bows before me. I pledge myself to the Darkness. For I have found true life, In the death of the light.

Shouldn't this be included? I mean, it is the code from Darth Bane on. -Hitokiri Akins I'm fairly certain that KOTOR is the source. - Angel Blue 451 21:36, 8 Dec 2005 (UTC)
 * Provide a source before this is added, please. QuentinGeorge 05:00, 8 Dec 2005 (UTC)
 * No, it's not. I've played through both KOTOR games countless times, and the only Sith Code mentioned in them is the one that's already in this article.

Ancient Sith
How can Tulak Hord have lived in the same era as Ajunta Pall if Hord was a lightsaber duelist? Not only had the lightsaber not been invented yet, but the Sith wouldn't come to use it until after the Great Hyperspace War. I don't see how Hord could have reigned anytime but after Ludo Kressh.


 * Since we can only assume when he lived at this point, I moved him to "Others". --Master Starkeiller 16:31, 4 Sep 2005 (UTC)

Also, shouldn't King Adas be on the list somewhere? Lieutenant Gerard 16:22, 2 Sep 2005 (UTC)


 * If he lived 16.000 BBY, he should be under the "Ancient Sith" section. I put him there. --Master Starkeiller 16:32, 4 Sep 2005 (UTC)


 * The Lightsaber was invented before the time of Ajunta Pall, sometime just after the Jedi formed.

Main Picture
Anyone opposed to me adding this image as the main picture?--Knightfall


 * Yeah, me. It's awful. We have a pic showing the same thing where Sidious and Vader look much better. No, absolutely not. Without the tweaking to make Hayden taller, Vader looks LAME. --Master Starkeiller 18:56, 27 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * No problem. Just figured I'd ask. Thanks for the reply. --Knightfall 19:34, 27 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * If it weren't for Vader's height, it would be fine... --Master Starkeiller 20:12, 27 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * I always thought that pic would be better for this page. I mean, when you say "Sith", what do you first think about?TIEPilot051999 01:48, 28 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * This may be beating a dead horse, but in regards to what Starkeiller said, doesn't this picture properly represent Vader's height? The tweaking to make Hayden taller was actually IN the suit he wore, it wasn't edited in later...well, at least as far as I know. If thats true, then that would make Vader's height in this picture accurate.--Knightfall 00:54, 3 Dec 2005 (UTC)
 * It's because its actually Ryan Kaufman in the suit for the promos, I've heard. QuentinGeorge 02:58, 3 Dec 2005 (UTC)
 * I prefer this picture, not the current one which is in the article. The only thing I do not like in that pic is that Vader has a blue lightsaber, which does not really represent the tradition of a red blade. - TopAce 11:50, 3 Jan 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree with TopAce... the current main picture isin't good enough. I really don't see a problem with the picture presented by Knightfall. I always thought that represented Vader's height in comparision to Palpatine. Geuss I have to watch Return of the Jedi again! -- Maphisto86 13:12, 4 Feb 2006 (UTC)
 * No seriously the picture with the red blades is better. How is it crap!? Im talking to Jasca Duacto. Vader doesen't look that small! The current picture with Anakin (pre-Mustafar) and Palpatine looks...well lame. It just doesen't say "Sith" to me. Sorry guys for beating a dead horse but I need a answer (a mature one, not "you suck!!1!!"). I'll stop changing it if someone gives a good answer. - Maphisto86 8:06, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Here is a good answer. The picture is crap. Yes i'm sure there are better pictures out there on the internet than the one we currently have but we haven't found them. The one with Vader in the armour would be alright were it not for the fact that he is too short.

Also, if you want to talk to me personally leave a message on my user talk. Thanks Jasca Ducato 13:19, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeah I keep on hearing that Vader is too short. I noticed that he is a little short in the picture although in ROTS and ROTJ Palpatine's head is about shoulder hight to Vader. In the promo picture he is about neck hieght to Vader. Well Im glad that you answered so quickly and concise. In the future if I want to talk to you or another user I will do so directly. P.S. I apologise if my last comment sounded like a challenge or something... :P Maphisto86 9:22, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I also perfer this suggested picture. And Image:Vaderemperor.jpg was another Vader-stands-next-to-Palpy pic, and I dont see that much height difference with this suggested one. Darth Kevinmhk 09:34, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Take note of the angle the picture is from. It could well provide a false impression. Jasca Ducato 18:53, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
 * This one, then Image:Construction of the Death Star.jpg. Better angle, huh? Similar result. Darth Kevinmhk 03:14, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Better angles, yes. But you can see that Vader's slouching. You catch that, huh? Jasca Ducato 10:04, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Okay, people, calm down. Let's just keep the pic we have now and leave it at that. It's a good pic, and it represents Vader at his most powerful. Remeber that if he hadn't been hacked to bits by Obi-Wan, he'd be able to easliy overthrow Palpatine, and wouldn't have taken anymore orders from him once he realized his true power and potential. -Lord vader1414 22:20, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Ranks?
Where do the ranks for the pre-Bane Sith come from? Lieutenant Gerard 18:40, 16 Dec 2005 (UTC)
 * The Dark Side Sourcebook. -- SFH 20:15, 16 Dec 2005 (UTC)
 * Should Sith Assassin be on the list? Isn't it not a rank so much as a prestige class? Lieutenant Gerard 01:14, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
 * During the Jedi Civil War, it was a rank. --Sentry 07:50, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

First landing
We need to gain some consensus on where the Dark Jedi first discovered the Sith race. Ziost may have been the homeworld, but I think that they first discovered them on Korriban. Any thoughts? -- SFH 20:15, 16 Dec 2005 (UTC)
 * I'm pretty sure that the KOTOR loading screens say the Dark Jedi landed on Korriban. Lieutenant Gerard 23:26, 6 Jan 2006 (UTC)

Insignia
I noticed that in KOTOR II, Ludo Kressh's tomb has the star forge-esque symbol that was the insignia for Revan's Sith. Given that Ajunta Pall apparently knew of the star forge, and it's stated that Revan and Malak took as many symbols and relics as possible from the old Sith, could this mean that this was the symbol of the Sith from prior to Revan? Kuralyov 19:29, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
 * It's distinctly possible, even likely. Personally i don't believe it to be true myself but i know when i'm wrong. All i know for sure is that the Mandalorian banner on Dxun (KOTOR II) is based on what Canderous Ordo saw during the final battle of the Jedi Civil War (i.e. the Star Forge). Jasca Ducato 19:25, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
 * It's possible since it is hinted in KOTOR I&II that the Sith prior to Revan knew of the Starforge. There are two other Sith insignia I have seen that resemble one another very closley. One is the one with the circle and the two flame symbols on each side which is shown on this wiki. The next was shown in the Essential Guide to Vehicles & Vesselsrefrence book on one of the pages describing ship manufacutres. It has the cirlce like before but with the "flames" put diagonially with another two on the opposite axis. Not a great description but check it out. It's the Sith entry and it as an orange colour. I think it would be cool to somehow can it and put the symbol in the article like the recent Jedi article edit. -Maphisto86 16:11, 6 March 2006.

Philosophy
Can we get a source for that Philosophy section? Sounds fanony to me, but I think I'll give it a chance. -- SFH 18:56, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Only result from Google is...us. --Fade 18:19, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Sith Organisations
Should we move the list of Sith Orginisations (ie the Naddists, the Brotherhood) to a seperate article making acsess easier. It would also tidy the page up a bit! Jasca Ducato 16:30, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I only added it becuase this article was far too broad and chaotic. I mean, the term 'Sith' refers to numerous disparate organizations that rose and fell over thousands of years of galactic history. Without a list of them, the article becomes far to generalized. I agree that the new section makes for an overlong contents block, but the list improves navigation and it seems more important than the list of RPG classes... --Sentry 23:45, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I understand that but under a new article, say Sith Orginisations/Orginizations it would mean we could add more detail. Jasca Ducato 08:57, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

THE MOST POWERFUL SITH LORD OF ALL TIME
WHO DO ALL OF YOU THINK IS THE MOST POWERFUL SITH LORD OF ALL TIME?
 * When I said to put it here, I didn't think you actually would. But I guess it can be here. Admiral J. Nebulax 21:55, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Probably Palpatine. But unless explicitly stated in a canon source, that would have no place in the main article The Erl of Korriban
 * In truth, NO sith could have been the most powerful. Every sith would eventually be beaten by another Sith or Jedi, so the power would just keep going and going. -Lord vader1414 22:23, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

A Thought on Ajunta Pall
Is it possible the unknown power he was speaking of to Revan wasn't the Star Forge, but the Trayus Academy. its just a thought on the matter being the Trayus Academy was an ancient Sith academy. User:RushinSundaws

I believe Ajunta was talking about the Trayus academy since he says somthing like "you will find this power and you will regret it" then he says "Or have you? Or will you? So many images"

That and it's mentioned that the academy almost killed Reven when he went to it hence the regret. Phillowe88 14:29, 8 February 2006 (UTC)


 * He is conflicted over Revan having found or not because Revan is off to the Star Forge for the second time in Kotor, even though, as far as he's aware, he never has visited it. Ajunta doesn't know the chronological facts for what he's talking about, so the regret could be a view of Revan's first visit. Or, as a pessimistic Sith Lord, his vision of Revan's future may have been the dark side ending. As for the Academy...we don't even know Revan visited it after his mind wipe. And I'm not sure how the 'power' of Trayus stands up to a dark-side-leeching, Sith-lord-strengthening, fleet-spawning spacestation. --Fade 14:57, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Phillowe88 20:43, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Some good points there. I don't think Revan visits Trayus after the wipe but he does remember it eventually along with the old Sith empire. I believe that Ajunta was part of that old Sith empire and that is what he was refering to. The old Sith had no knowledge of the Star Forge. As for the "power" part the Trayus academy has the power to turn even the most light side Jedi to the dark side and corrupt them. Wonder if the Academy predates the Forge or vice versa?
 * Bear in mind the author's intent, as well. The fact that it was mentioned in Kotor I heavily supports the Star Forge idea; that is, the Kotor I writers obviously wanted to make a connection between the ancient Sith and Star Forge, as Trayus hadn't been invented yet. Obviously there was no evidence prior to this; the Forge was, after all, invented by Kotor. And the Forge, assuming Trayus was built by the Sith, far outdates the academy. --Fade 14:22, 15 February 2006 (UTC)


 * But Revan found or refound the Trayus Academy before the Star Forge in the Star Wars continuity...seeing how the academy led him to Korriban and the Star Map on Korriban helped him find the Star Forge. And the Trayus Academy is said by Kreia to be something of the ancient Sith. User:RushinSundaws 11:23, 16 February 2006


 * Revan found the Star Forge before finding any of the Star Maps. (With the exception of the Dantooine possibly) Bastila SHan cleary states that Revan and Malak were seen on several words while they were meant to have been looking for the remnant of Mandalorian forces. Jasca Ducato 08:53, 17 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Umm... No. In KOTOR, you are retracing Revan's path to the Star Forge. He and Malak did not just stumble on it out of the blue. They hunted for it in secret after their supposed 'disappearance'. As to when they discovered the Dantooine Star Map, I would guess that it was early, probably before the Mandalorian Wars. Vrook seems to support this in his conversation options. If you want to know about how Revan discovered Malachor V and how it fits into the story, read the Chronicles of the Old Republic. Its not the best source in the world, but its the only one, so beggars can't be choosers...--Sentry 10:48, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Right; the reason they were seen on several worlds is because they were looking for the maps. --Fade 11:16, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Sorry, i meant that. IT was a typo. I meant to say they hadn't found any maps (with the exception of Dantooine) before they found the Trayus Academy. SO the Trayus Academy and the Star Forge and completely unrelated. Jasca Ducato 12:17, 17 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Um, thats not entirely true, the Trayus academy led Revan to Korriban and one of the Star Maps, so they do a small connection. RushinSundaws 9:18, 19 February 2006
 * Erm, how so exactly? Jasca Ducato 19:45, 25 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Anyone ever consider that Bioware might have written the KOTOR 1 and 2 at the same time and implemented them in different games (i know bioware didn't make K2) This means Adjunta Pall can be talking about Trayus and not about the Forge. The Trayus academy however did not lead them to the Forge (or it's not stated to (and we can't make assumptions))Phillowe88 23:20, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Sorry, but no. Various Devs over at the Bioware forums have said that KOTOR was not originally planned to have a sequel at all. KOTOR:TSL only came about after LucasArts realized that the first game was 'Game of the Year' quality... --Sentry 06:14, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Empathy quote

 * What is the source for the lead in quote about empathy? -- SFH 16:29, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
 * From The Apprentice (comic) in Star Wars Tales. So it's legit, but of unknown canonicity. --Fade 17:09, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, idiot move. Hadn't heard of Legacy yet.

Behind the Scenes

 * Shortly, I'm going to integrate all that KOTOR junk into the main article since the titles that are already in the article (ie acolyte, warrior, lord, etc) are from the RPG anyway so I'm not sure why they are listed twice. QuentinGeorge 05:08, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I've been wanting to do that for a while... Its good to see it finally deleted. --Sentry 04:09, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

Copy Editing
"Dark side" is apparently not capitalized--thanks to JackNebullax for pointing that out--but what about concepts like Dark Side Adept (dark side Adept), Dark Side Elite (dark side Elite): are these proper nouns and should be stylized up (Dark Side Adept, Dark Side Elite), or is "dark side" here merely descriptive and "Adept" and "Elite" are the actual (proper) noun and they should be styled down (dark side Adept, dark side Elite)? Perhaps a trivial point, but an improvement drive is an improvement drive, and copy editing helps improve any text. Ulic 17:51, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

what was wrong with what i added?
The line: -"A Sith beleives he comands the force, but it is the dark side that commands him."

- Jolee Bindo ?

Master Nikolce 08:37, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I can't speak for QuentinGeorge, but I think it's just that too many quotes in a row are discouraged. One in a row is usually plenty; if there's a different subsection that's appropriate for that quote to head off, it would fit much better there, and it should be perfectly fine to add it. - Lord Hydronium 09:00, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Okay, instead, i've found it in the dark side article. Good enough for me.

Master Nikolce 00:31, 29 April 2006 (UTC)


 * The problem with that quote is that it is biased against the Sith. You shouldnt quote a Jedi in a Sith or Dark Side article.
 * Not at all, as a sith would be biased to their own beliefs to, the reason was due to the amount of quotes in such a small space. Jedi Dude 22:35, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Sith (species) Homeworld
According to the new Star Wars Insider, the home planet of the Sith species is Korriban, not Ziost. I'm changing it in the article. Duke Starhopper 22:07, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
 * The homeworld of the Sith species is not Korriban. It is Ziost according to most primary sources.--Sentry [ Talk ] 06:13, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

was sidous talking about Naga Sadow's empire in episode 3?
in episode 3 right after Anakin and Sidous kill mace windu sidous says that once again the Sith will rule the galaxy. Was he talking about Naga Sadow's empire? --Dumac 02:57, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Going from what Lucas wrote for his own Sith backstory, he's probably talking about what the EU later made into the New Sith Empire. Kuralyov 03:00, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
 * It's the NSE. Darth bane was a part of the NSE and so that is who Sidious was fighting to return to power. Jasca Ducato Sith Council (Sith campaign) 09:45, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

First mentioned
Does anybody actually know the first time the word Sith is actually used in the movies, and who said it? I know Sidious uses the word during Episode I but it was definately mentioned before. Jasca Ducato Sith Council (Sith campaign) 19:42, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I think that that was the first time the word "sith" was actually mentioned on-screen. I believe that it had only appeared on merchanise before that. – 21:18, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks Sentry, but i found out what i wanted to know just yesterday :). Darth Abeonis Sith Council (Sith campaign) 18:03, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

"Sith have no fear"
Dooku in Clone Wars. It sounds odd to me, seeing as fear is a prime emotion for darkside-style Force-tapping. Was this just Dookus wrongful assumption, or is there any truth to it?

Reason I'm asking is beacuse the Dark Jedi article states that one of the differences between Dark Jedi and Sith is the Sith lack of fear.DarthMRN
 * The Sith have no fear because fear is the first step down the road to the Dark Side. At the point the Sith have reached, they are beyond fear and no longer need it, so they cast it aside. user:Darth Vatrir
 * So youre saying that becoming more advanced in the ways of the sith includes casting aside a prime source of power?! Diregarding the logical breach in that statement, everything we know of the sith way tells us that they hoard every advantage they can, further conflicting with "Sith having no fear". I could have believed that powerful sith lords had sufficient emotional control to choose when to indulge their emotions for power, but letting themselves lose fear outright is downright stupid. What are your sources?DarthMRN 17:29, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Inconsistencies
"Only a Sith deals in absolutes", Obi-Wan said in Episode III, but it seems to me as if the Jedi are the ones to do that. On the contrary, it's when the Jedi start tweaking with their strict Code that they fall to the dark side... The Sith are more adaptable and less dogmatic. Evir Daal 08:38, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Agreed, but Obi-Wan cannot be accused of not being biased. Anyway, that quote is canon. Has nothing to do with the article.DarthMRN 17:32, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Legacy era sith
why does it say in the article that the legacy era sith were formed after the second correlian insurection i was under the impression that the legacy era sith were formed in 30 aby?69.26.85.153 01:55, 27 November 2006 (UTC)