Talk:Grand Army of the Republic/Legends

The Clone Trooper Legions and Battallions and the Specialized Clone Troopers were the predecessors of the Specialized Stormtroopers. -- Eddyward Telerionus 14:12, 10 Aug 2005 (UTC)
 * So...?? We all know that the clone troopers became the stormtroopers after the fall of the Republic. What was the point of that, Eddy? Cmdr. J. Nebulax 16:31, 10 Aug 2005 (UTC)

The Specialized Clone Troopers were assigned to special duties and each type of Specialized Clone trooper wore armor that distinguish one type of Specialized Clone Trooper from another, but ironically a Phase II Clone trooper armor's color markings indicates legion affiliation (whereas in the early Clone Wars, the Phase I armor's color markings indicates a rank). After the fall of the Republic, when the Clone troopers were transformed into the Stormtroopers, the Empire abandoned the use of armor with color markings that indicate rank or legion affiliation. -- Eddyward Telerionus 23:20, 10 Aug 2005 (UTC)
 * Again, I ask. So...??? I don't see the point of why you're posting this information WHICH WE ALREADY KNOW. So why bother posting this? I thought that the discussion pages were for discussing the article, not putting up information which we knew, even before you posted this. Cmdr. J. Nebulax 00:24, 11 Aug 2005 (UTC)

I'm posting this information because the Clone Troopers were divided into specialized units and color-marked legions. -- Eddyward Telerionus 22:08, 11 Aug 2005 (UTC)
 * Ok, what did I miss? -- Riffsyphon1024 22:20, 11 Aug 2005 (UTC)

Eddy, WE ALREADY KNEW THAT. We knew long before you posted that that the clone troopers were divided up like that. Cmdr. J. Nebulax 22:58, 11 Aug 2005 (UTC)

"Though the clone troopers fought for the Republic during the Clone Wars, the army was turned against the loyalists and the Jedi when the Galactic Empire was formed at the war's end." Turned against loyalists? I don't think so... Only against the Jedi.
 * Actually, that statement is true. At the beginning of the Jedi Purge, Palpatine began to compile a list of possible traitorious senators that thought the Galactic Republic should not have been changed into the Galactic Empire. That is stated in the Episode III Visual Dictionary. Cmdr. J. Nebulax 19:25, 31 Aug 2005 (UTC)

Just something to add: The numbers about the Order of Battle are wrong. If a Squad contains 9 Troopers and a Sergeant there are 10 Clones. 4*10 = 40 not 36(which would let the Troopers without a Sergeant). I think this makes all the numbers wrong. I will correct that, if I have enough time tomorrow --84.173.244.19 20:21, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, let's make sure we have the right numbers from the Insider 84 article before going and changing it. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 20:24, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Clone Marshal Commander
I hadn't heard this title before. What is its source? --SparqMan 00:01, 25 Sep 2005 (UTC)

Insider 84: Guide to GAR --24.247.124.158 00:20, 25 Sep 2005 (UTC)
 * Yes. It seems that someone will need to find some information on the Clone Marshal Commander and create a page for it. We know that this clone trooper is more important than the senior clone commander. Cmdr. J. Nebulax 01:27, 25 Sep 2005 (UTC)

Specializations Image
Why was it removed? it was perfect for that part... razzy1319
 * It was too big. Maybe if you could make it smaller, then you could put it up again. Cmdr. J. Nebulax 21:32, 1 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * if it was a big file size then I would agree but it fit perfectly between the division lines.
 * If you would have previewed it, you would have seen that it stretched out that section. Cmdr. J. Nebulax 21:58, 1 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * I did preview it. it fit perfectly. what's your screen resolution?
 * It doesn't matter. Its location in the article made a gap between two bullets. That's why I removed it. Cmdr. J. Nebulax 22:12, 1 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * Dont know what page your looking at but it looks perfect.
 * Now it looks much better. Cmdr. J. Nebulax 00:35, 2 Nov 2005 (UTC)

Specializations
It contains information the Clone trooper article doesnt... pls revert. --Razzy1319 05:15, 17 Jan 2006 (UTC)
 * Anything that wasn't in Clone trooper was moved over. --SparqMan 05:32, 17 Jan 2006 (UTC)
 * eh, dont see cuyvaldar, planetary militias, and etc in the clone trooper article ---Razzy1319 05:37, 17 Jan 2006 (UTC)

Republic Navy in GAR Article?
In case you don't know, the Grand Army and the Republic Navy are two seperate entities. This article should be about the Army, and the Republic Navy article should be about the Republic Navy. Bottom line: there's more about the Navy in this article than the Army. --AdmThrawn 21:16, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Agreed. I removed some unneeded stuff. Admiral J. Nebulax 22:41, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks. All that starfighter stuff belongs somewhere else. --AdmThrawn 22:46, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
 * I wasn't exactly sure to keep it in from the beginning, either. Admiral J. Nebulax 23:56, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Numbers
Quote:"The account of the Battle of Muunilinst in the New Essential Chronology says that the Republic landing involved "hundreds of assault ships, each one groaning from the weight of troopers and war machines"; the figure of 3.2 million is arrived at if this phrase is extrapolated to mean around two hundred Acclamator-class assault ships, each carrying its full capacity of 16,000 clones."
 * Couldn't some of the Acclamators have been Acclamator II-class assault ship, which presumably carry fewer troops? -LtNOWIS 02:09, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Acclamator IIs presumably wouldn't have been available then, since they were eventual modifications of Mk Is. Also no Clone Wars source has ever shown a Mk II, which after all are mentioned in only one EU source. Plus the quote implies that all ships were transports; why would a ship not designed to hold anything be included in a definition of a "groaning" carrier fleet? Kuralyov 03:11, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
 * That was me by the way. I thought I was logged in. We don't really how long after the Mk I they were introduced, or what version whether any given Acclamator-class in the EU is. When someone calls a ship an Acclamator, it could be either. Nor do we know how many troops the Mk II carried. But those are valid points. -LtNOWIS 05:19, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

I can't help but notice a number of references to points raissed in my essay here. Cool - Daniel-K
 * Where did you get that information about the figures from the movies? Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 19:07, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I watched them and counted - Daniel-K
 * Dead discussion, but oh well. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 20:04, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Debate

 * Unlike the fleet-related debates for the OT and later eras, I don't particularly care about this Grand Army "problem." And now I know how the uninvolved parties must feel about the debates I follow/participate in. It's kriffing hilarious to watch. http://media.ign.com/boardfaces/18.gif -- Darth Culator 12:57, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
 * And you know what else would be funny? If some of you guys went and edited Grand Army of the Republic on Uncyclopedia. -- Darth Culator 13:15, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
 * If you liked it so far, you're gonna love this:

Traviss:

"It's not a daft figure, though: everyone assumes that the war was fought on every planet all the time for three years solid.

''It wasn't. It was small scale, very mobile, spread out and bushfire as much as anything - to keep the Jedi busy and scattered. Palps wasn't stupid.''

'Folks think WWI or WWII. Wrong style of war for this.'"

And someone's comment:

"Did I miss something? "Small scale"? Doesn't she realize that George Lucas is one of those "folks"? Traviss has made it clear that she won't discuss this further, so I guess there's no idea pushing it further."

Gold. Comedy gold. 8D VT-16 18:37, 11 April 2006 (UTC) Making this more objective would be excellent. You get the feeling only one viewpoint(maximalist) is presented here.(FoM, the "Fandalorian"...sure...)``
 * We need to make the numbers section more NPOV and encyclopedic. It should be like the Creationism articles on Wikipedia, where both sides of the issue are evenly presented. I mean, this article really shouldn't have an exclamation point...-LtNOWIS 19:06, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 19:29, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree it should be more objective, but don't delete entire parts of text that don't support your view. The NEGC and Lord of War references keep on disappearing during these edits, and they're a key part to the debate. Jast17

Wont happen again. Though, since whatever edits I make will invariably disappear before long, I do ask someone to possibly create a section for the lower numbers (3 million cloens and the like) and a section for higher numbers (3 million clone divios and what not) and present the arguemnts for both sides in a fair manner in these sections. -FoM
 * I see some "interesting" edits have been removed once again, before I had time to complain to the admins. Wasn't that fortunate? I also see some people have an issue with the Clone Wars being a galactic-scale conflict, which is a shame, as this recent "re-imagining" of events as a series of small spec ops with little consequence for the galaxy as a whole, is an unfortunate development, with little regard for the previous four years of CW literature. Low troop-numbers or not, I've never seen any previous author obsess this much with low-scale CW events, as if they constituted the CW as a whole.


 * As for "different" troop-numbers, I refer once again to the previous four years of literature (as well as, god forbid we forget, the actual movies). Many battles are shown with large-scale confrontations, that easily eclipse "a few thousand troops". And the fact remains that clones were set to operate everything in the military, from tanks to fighters to capital ships (and, no, you can not fight a ground battle and a space battle with the same clone doing different tasks at the same time, i.e pilot a fighter, man ship-guns and pound the ground). This has all been stated time and time again, and the sheer number of ships are too many to account for only three million clones. In the battle of Coruscant alone, there are thousands of ships (as stated by the ILM animators), with primarily all-clone crews, and with plenty of clones already fighting on the surface, it easily eclipses 3 million. Plus, the Outer Rim Sieges are on-going at the same time!


 * There's a time when people need to know where to jump off. The author in dispute has gone way past that line by now, and I'd appreciate it if people would now settle down or distance themselves from her, until this thing cools off.
 * It's really pathetic, now. I'm not saying that to be snarky, and I don't find this debate particularly funny, either (in contrast to my previous remark above :P). Now it's just down-right sad.


 * PS. (I didn't invent the word "fandalorian" but I have seen it be used by Ms. Traviss and fans of her work, so both sides have used it, IIRC). VT-16 21:34, 11 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Wow, it seems like a lot has occured since I last wrote something here... Anyway, from what VT-16 said: "if people would now settle down or distance themselves from her, until this thing cools off". Let's just do what VT-16 suggested here. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 22:04, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

But still, it is a debate, and what Karen says is canon, just as much as Lord of War and NGEC and ITW etc. are. I realise both sides have valid reasons and all the more reason to show them. And even though it conflicts with these earlier sources (and perhaps because it conflicts) we should at least try to show why people might support her instead of the others. Seeing as how there is no definitive answer (hence the term debate) until it is retconned to something everyone is happy with (somehow unlikely methinks...) we should represnt both viewpoints, not just one. -FoM
 * Yes, but in a way that doesn't say "This side is right, and this side is wrong". Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 23:13, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Well, thats the general idea behind NPOV...
 * That's a very strange definition of NPOV, since one side in this case is at the disadvantage of having to justify numbers that go with an ideology. Namely, that the Clone Wars were not, as shown in most previous sources, a big galaxy-wide series of battles, but were in fact a series of special operations performed by a tiny group of "elite troops". (Even though they already have three distinct groups of spec ops soldiers to do that: Clone Commandos, ARC troopers, Null ARC troopers)
 * Even authors using the 1.2 million clones in all, didn't treat the conflict like that, so this is a very recent invention by seemingly one specific author.
 * And there's the statement from Ryan Kaufman (co-author of the Insider 84 article that began this recent mess) where he says, quite clearly, that LFL did not want any total number for the Clone Army at all, and none would be affixed to cover the entire army.
 * This is quite understandable, as they are thinking of story potential and a modicum of continuity (i.e, if a big army gets sent to a specific planet in a new story, yet this would be supercede the "3 million clones" number due to other big battles being waged in other stories taking place at the same time, then this would limit the number of stories that could be told in the same time-frame. And I can't see why LFL would want that, so this policy makes business-sense.)
 * Even the biggest numbers given in canonical sources so far is "a million divisions at the start of the war, with milions more undergoing final evaluations". That fits in more with the "fantasy" or "myth-like" part of SW, as it doesn't give any final numbers to the Clone Army, only a rough estimate at the beginning of the war, with potential for great expansion as the conflict intensifies. It appeals both to "techies" like me, as well as to people who usually go "it's just fiction!" in these debates. A nice, big fantasy-number for a fantasy-story. "3 million clones", a fraction of WWII's Wehrmacht forces, who, as we all know, didn't even conquer or hold one continent, doesn't make any sort of sense, unless each trooper was magical. ;) VT-16 10:02, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Rewritten the discussion, aiming for NPOV. Perhaps we should go through it here in the discussion page, and fix on structure and phrasing that everyone finds acceptable, rather than editing over and again? --McEwok 16:00, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Now that's a good idea. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 19:19, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Should it worry you that you agree with me, Nebulax?

Well... VT-16 has reverted my rewrite, and made some further tweaks of his own: so... starting with his current version, here's the major points I think could be problematic. Once we've fixed on what the article should include, we can discuss the structure and phrasing.


 * Additionally, most stories made since AOTC have shown hundreds of battles, many of which with massive losses for the clones, thereby negating any argument that they represented a "small, elite, special operations force" compared with regular battle droids.

Since the GAR fights in some open battles, the phrase "small, elite, special operations force" isn't perhaps the best to use to describe them? Fair enough - I agree! I assume the phrase is from Karen Traviss, and I'd be interested to know the exact context of the line...

... but I'm not quite sure what this particular point has to do with the question of the size of the GAR.

Speaking for myself I certainly don't doubt that there were major battles throughout the Clone Wars with hundreds of thousands of clones deployed together in planetary assaults and sieges. I'm pretty sure that a number of battles of this sort are part of canon. But - and here's the fundamental point - it's entirely possible for a GAR of three million to fight in "hundreds of battles" and suffer "massive losses".

How big is a "big" battle? What proof is there that more than a few thousand clones fought at most "major battles" in the Clone Wars? Has anyone taken a detailed look at the battle-by-battle evidence yet? In discusisons I've seen, opponents of "three million" figure tend to cite just two pieces of evidence for large formations... so we'll come onto those next...
 * The largest figure given for the Grand Army so far, was a million clone divisions, which were being prepared at the start of the war, and with additional millions more undergoing evaluation.

I'm not aware of a direct reference to a million divisions at the start of the war - just to "clone divisions" plus "millions more"; and shouldn't the text acknowledge the fact that some fans think the "millions more" means millions of clones, with nothing more than a little sloppy grammar?
 * the account of the Battle of Muunilinst in the New Essential Chronology...

Well... all VT's numbers here are extrapolated from a single reference to "hundreds of assault ships"; the interpretation he presents as fact is contentious extrapolation, and while that interpretation itself should certainly be mentioned, so should the opposing view: the current text is a partisan argument representing one side of the debate. Why must "assault ships" must mean specifically Acclamator-class? And why must all the Acclamators (even if they exist) be fully loaded with 16,000 clones each? More seriously, can we really be sure that 3.2 million clones fought at Muunilinst, when multiple sources (the NEC itself among them) say that only 1.2 million were available for front-line operations in the first months of the war?
 * These 3 million troops would also be divided among ship-operators and ground troops, like the battle droids, as they were stated as being used to fill all kinds of different roles in both the army and the navy.

I'm curious as to where this comes from. The figure of three million clones corresponds to the nominal strength of the GAR according to its order-of-battle, something I pointed out in the version of the article that VT reverted; this also has the effect of rendering the question of "massive losses for the clones" irrelevant for the three million figure: it is the muster strength of the GAR, not the total number of clones!

Of course, this leaves the issues of droid numbers and relative scale compared to real-world combat: I agree that these should be mentioned - in fact, I'd insist on it! - but I also think that to present these as categorical reasons for discounting a GAR of three million is to misrepresent both the canon evidence and the range of fan POVs: in other words, there are (possible!) explanations for these issues, and the article as it currently stands is far from NPOV.

So to break that down: there are specific numbers for the GAR in the first year of the war, rising to a figure of three million, which corresponds to the full muster on the order of battle. There are debated interpretations of two specific phrases (ITW's "millions more" and "hundreds of assault ships" in the NEC), plus questions of scale and battledroid numbers, on which both sides of the debate have POVs that they find acceptable...

... and this is what I was trying to get across in the version VT reverted. Where did I go wrong?

Come on, everyone: let's get this article fixed and beautiful! --McEwok 19:43, 12 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Ironically, the 3 million number is conflicted by Traviss' own novel hard contact which repeatedly describes millions of clones being deployed on hundreds of worlds. - Lowkey


 * "Should it worry you that you agree with me, Nebulax?". It's easier to write something than say it. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 19:45, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Uh, let's not have questions in it, if possible. It looks unencyclopedic, in my opinion, if there are questions. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 19:54, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm not aware of a direct reference to a million divisions at the start of the war - just to "clone divisions" plus "millions more"; and shouldn't the text acknowledge the fact that some fans think the "millions more" means millions of clones, with nothing more than a little sloppy grammar?
 * The quote from ITWoAOTC is this:
 * "The first batch of clone divisions are ready for deployment; millions more are undergoing intensive performance evaluations."
 * The subject of this sentence is clone divisions, NOT individual clones. You CAN'T dismiss a perfectly fine sentence as a possible "grammatical error" without proof. That quote is from a Saxton book, you know damn well what he intended.


 * Why must "assault ships" must mean specifically Acclamator-class?
 * It's quite obvious given that Acclamators are colloquially known as "Republic assault ships". Furthermore, if this assault ships are really just small dropships or even LAATs as you minimalists want to believe, how the hell can such an attack rely on "sheer numbers" as the quote in the NEGC said it did?


 * And why must all the Acclamators (even if they exist) be fully loaded with 16,000 clones each?
 * The quote said that the ships were "groaning" from all the troops and war machines they were carrying. That's not the way you would describe a ship that's not even carrying the STANDARD complement that it was designed to carry.


 * 1) More seriously, can we really be sure that 3.2 million clones fought at Muunilinst, when multiple sources (the NEC itself among them) say that only 1.2 million were available for front-line operations in the first months of the war?
 * Muunilinst was NOT in the first month of the war, and there are sources that refute such stupidly small numbers. JimRaynor55 20:14, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Surlethe (Big Badass Starship) 22:38, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
 * My 2 cents: a "Grand" Army of the Republic of only 3 million men seems so incredibly small as to be insignificant in a war which (according to RotS) had multiple "sieges" in the Outer Rim. This is clearly a conflict which literally spans multiple entire worlds; and given both that, again in RotS, the clones do not possess a good kill ratio at all against droids, as well as the fact that, terrestrially, some modern militaries have had more than three million men, and none have ever come close to being able to single-handedly fight in a world-spanning conflict, it's quite clear that the 3e6 clone number is ridiculous.
 * Excellent points, JimRaynor. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 23:31, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

It should be noted that the stated size in Revenge of the Sith Incredible Cross Sections and General Grievous: Lord of War that the size of the droid army is in the quintillions. Yet in the CIS Shadowfeed dated in universe 14:2:14, article "Dooku Addresses 'Spurious' Republic Reports" (SW Insider 65, page 75) Count Dooku states "the forces on our borders and outlying colonial assets are admittedly facing greater numbers...". In other words, the GAR outnumbered the Confederate Army initially! - Lowkey
 * I don't need to repeat the forum debates here. Possibly, we could boil down each point and counterpoint that people make in this article, in some sort of bullet system. -LtNOWIS 00:22, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Lowkey, Dooku most likely wanted it to seem like they were outnumbered so their victory would appear as a great accomplishment (after all, Dooku was promised by Palpatine that they would win...). Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 00:50, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
 * From this address, Dooku seems to be admitting that the reports are true and they are facing greater numbers, but that victory will still be at hand. If he said anything else, wouldn't reports from the frontlines conflict with his words and make him look stupid? Better to admit the problems but keep optimistic about it. He's got charisma and charm, you'd think him being truthful about something like this would only make him look better in the Separatists' eyes. Their "great leader" standing firm in the face of danger. Adding to this, is that at the time right before the Second Battle of Coruscant, the Republic had driven the Confederacy back towards the Outer Rim again. How anything on a galactic scale can be "driven back" by 3 million troops, is unknown to me. As for the CW as a whole, there's Lucas' prologue from Shatterpoint, but I'm not sure people are interested in the view of the guy who made the films. ;) VT-16 10:44, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Quote: "...the entire need for the clone army rose from the fact that the Republic had too few conventional soldiers to fight the Separatists." What's the source for this? I thought they needed the clones because you can't raise a conventional army in secret, and because the clones could be counted on for Order 66. -LtNOWIS 05:52, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
 * According to Labyrinth of Evil which detailed Sifo-Dyas' backstory, he did order the clone army because he worried the Republic was facing dark times (i.e wouldn't be prepared with conventional forces) VT-16 10:34, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

George Lucas' quote
I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt and posting the words of the man himself (from the opening of Shatterpoint), hoping they will be useful:

Prologue

The Clone Wars by George Lucas

''For a thousand years, the Old Republic prospered and grew under the wise rule of the Senate and the protection of the venerable Jedi Knights. But as often happens when wealth and power grow beyond all reasonable proportion, an evil fueled by greed arose. The massive organs of commerce mushroomed in power, the Senate became corrupt, and an ambitious senator named Palpatine was voted Supreme Chancellor. Most disturbingly, the Dark Lords of the Sith reappeared, after a thousand years of seeming absence.''

''In the midst of this turmoil, a separatist movement was formed under the leadership of the charismatic former Jedi, Count Dooku. By promising an alternative to the corruption and greed that was rotting the Republic from within, Dooku was able to persuade thousands of star systems to secede from the Republic. Unbeknownst to most of his followers, Dooku was himself a Dark Lord of the Sith, acting in collusion with his master, Darth Sidious, who, over the years, had struck an unholy alliance with the greater forces of commerce and their private droid armies.''

''The turning point came when Count Dooku lured the unsuspecting Jedi into a trap on the desolate planet of Geonosis. Having just discovered the existence of a clone army that had been secretly commissioned for the Republic ten years earlier, the Jedi were well prepared when they confronted the Separatists on Geonosis. But their victory in that heated battle was pyrric. It would prove to be merely the opening salvo in a war that would spread like fire across the galaxy and engulf thousands of star systems in the legendary Clone Wars.''

''Having already been granted emergency powers in the face of the growing threat, Chancellor Palpatine used his ironclad grip on the Senate to seize even greater authority, all in the name of security. To address the urgent military needs of the Republic, he enlisted the Jedi Knights as generals to command the Clone Army. The Jedi valiantly accepted their assignment, though never having served as military commanders, they were unaccustomed to the wages of war. Their ranks, once sufficient to serve as the guardians of peace and justice, were spread periously thin in the face of this unthinkable challenge. Their relationship with Palpatine grew strained. At the same time, they felt their own power waning even as their most promising new apprentice completed his training and stood poised to fulfill his destiny as the Chosen One who would bring balance to the Force.''

''The Clone Wars raged for three long years, tearing the Republic apart and spawning countless tales of heroism, bravery, treachery, and betrayal as both sides fought to defend their ideals. As dedicated as the Separatists were in their resolve to create a new order to replace the failing Republic, the Jedi were equally determined to preserve the Republic and defeat the Sith, who they understood all too well were the masterminds of the Separatist movement. They still believed in the Republic, still deemed it a Republic worth saving. Their faith, which gave them superhuman strength in the face of mind-boggling power of the enemy, had yet to be shaken.''

VT-16 10:55, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Thank you for providing us with this quote from GL. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 11:22, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Random linebreak for ease of editing
Lowkey: Ironically, the 3 million number is conflicted by Traviss' own novel hard contact which repeatedly describes millions of clones being deployed on hundreds of worlds.
 * Quotes would be useful, because as it stands, I don't see vague references to millions of clones and hundreds of worlds directly contradicting more specific references to a GAR with a standing strength of three million....

Nebulax: ''Uh, let's not have questions in it, if possible. It looks unencyclopedic, in my opinion, if there are questions.''
 * The disagreements are part of the reality of the topic. They should be explained. To do less is to be inaccurate, and misrepresent what's happening. However, I'd add that explicit canon figures for a GAR of three million are also canon, and the arguments raised against these are all based on inference. Some fans might not like this, but it's what we have to work with.

JimRaynor55: ''The subject of this sentence is clone divisions, NOT individual clones. You CAN'T dismiss a perfectly fine sentence as a possible "grammatical error" without proof. That quote is from a Saxton book, you know damn well what he intended''
 * No, I don't know what he intended. And if he did intend millions of clone divisions, I can't say that LFL did: that sentence may have been a compromise between Saxton's POV and LFL's requirements, or even an attempt to subvert canon. More to the point, that sentence must be taken alongside the repeated, explicit references to a GAR of three million men. It's entirely clear what that is meant to mean, and that affects how we must read the reference to "millions more" supplimenting the original "clone divisions".

JimRaynor55: ''It's quite obvious given that Acclamators are colloquially known as "Republic assault ships". Furthermore, if this assault ships are really just small dropships or even LAATs as you minimalists want to believe, how the hell can such an attack rely on "sheer numbers" as the quote in the NEGC said it did?''
 * Well, the NEC is supposedly a history written under the Galactic Alliance, and this particular passage is rather rhetorical, describing Muunilinst as "an impregnable castle keep". There is no evidence to treat this passage as more than a quickly-written impression of the battle of Muunilinst: "Republic assault ships" doesn't necessarily mean Acclamators, and "sheer numbers" doesn't necessarily mean more than a Sector Army or two. And when the passage here is set against the explicit evidence for a GAR of three million (or at this stage in the war, 1.2 million), then the ambiguity of meaning must come into play.

JimRaynor55: ''The quote said that the ships were "groaning" from all the troops and war machines they were carrying. That's not the way you would describe a ship that's not even carrying the STANDARD complement that it was designed to carry.''
 * They could easily be carrying large, specialist siege weaponry, rather than large numbers of infantry?

JimRaynor55: ''Muunilinst was NOT in the first month of the war, and there are sources that refute such stupidly small numbers. ''
 * I said "in the first months of the war?", not first month. Muunilinst is before Shatterpoint, when the GAR is still 1.2 million. And no, there are no sources that refute the canon numbers; there are interpretations that challenge such small numbers. I'm cool with that, though. Why do you have a problem with allowing your POV to take its rightful place in the wider context of evidence and fan opinion?

Surlethe: ''... it's quite clear that the 3e6 clone number is ridiculous.''
 * You're definately entitled to that opinion. However, it is just your opinion. You'll note that you have nothing specific, and the canon numbers do allow multiple major battles with hundreds of thousands of troops to be running concurrently with thousands of smaller operations... to say nothing of other Republic forces, and the Navy, with its impressive orbital-bombardment capabilities!

VT-16: I'm not sure how that intro from Lucas is relevant. It contains nothing specific to countermand a GAR of three million...

... and in the end, that's the point. Canon says 200k, then 1.2k, rising to three million. Canon says nothing that categorically countermands these numbers. Some fans dislike these numbers, and they could certainly be short of the total in one way or another (in fact, even if taken as hard and final, they're just the GAR order of battle, not counting casualties or the Navy)... but as it stands, these are the numbers that we have to work with at the minute. That may not be everyone's ideal situation, but it is the canon scenario. Where's the problem? --McEwok 12:14, 17 April 2006 (UTC) Besides, in the end, what is the Clone Wars but a setup for Palpatine to get into power?. Remember that he controled BOTH the Republic and the CIS. So there was not any war at all, simply Palps's plot to sluaghter the Jedi and to become Emperor of the GFFA.
 * Here we go with the quotes from other people... Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 12:20, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
 * As for what I said that you quoted, you can rephrase questions into statements that still gets a point across. Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 17:36, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Oh, I pretty much agree, if that's what you meant; there wasn't a single direct question or question-mark in my version,  so I presumed that by "questions", you meant the highlighting of uncertainties and ambiguities. No worries, sorry for the misunderstanding. --McEwok 16:36, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Oops, I thought there had been a queston mark in there... My bad. Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 16:43, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
 * No worries. Due to the lack of replies/discussion, I'm going to revise/revert the article later today, though.... --McEwok 09:53, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Be careful, then... Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 19:00, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm not interested in more fanon garbage taking center place. You already took out canonical information from this page once. I will report you to the administration if it happens again. VT-16 06:54, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
 * That's a pretty convicing arguement. Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 11:06, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
 * This page will soon get some more, there's people I know who are working on a big article and will possibly put it on a blog on the OS. Can't reprint it of course, but I will put up some bullet-points with stuff taken from the dozens of sources they've gone through. There's so many books and quotes mentioned, I think few people debating this have taken time to read them all. Adding it all up, there's little reason to keep thinking 3 million can explain all of it. (Though, I suspect some debaters long since realised this but keep going just to get people riled up. Logic and concern for continuity has little to do with it.) VT-16 14:20, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, if it's a lot of good stuff, we could always use it. Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 20:33, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
 * My only concern here is to do what I can to keep the material on Wookieepedia canon-compliant and NPOV. If it was up to me, I'd have made the GAR much bigger, but the explicit canon numbers are in the low millions, and as such, they constrain the continuity.
 * This is the way I look at it: the hard numbers define the possible interpretation of the other evidence, which is less clear-cut; evidence like the NEC's "hundreds of assault ships" and ITW's "millions more". Now, these lines could imply hundreds of fully-loaded Acclamators and millions of multi-regiment battlegroups, but they could also mean hundreds of small craft and mere millions of troopers; and since there are also sources stating a GAR of a few million troops, the latter interpretation is IMHO necessary to maintain overall continuity. It's true that we then have a massive disparity in numbers with both battledroids and real-world armies, but these comparisons aren't really like-for-like.
 * That said, though, I'll wait and see if any new evidence is produced by the new analysis. --McEwok 09:54, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
 * "My only concern here is to do what I can to keep the material on Wookieepedia canon-compliant and NPOV". Well, most people don't think you do a good job at it. Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 11:08, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I would like to add that the regular Clone Troopers averaged 200 droids a head. [Source: Guide to the GAR]

In conclusion, It does not matter how many CTs there were in the GAR, The clones are simpaly meant to create a war so Palpatine could get his excuse to transform the Republic into an Empire.
 * Wrong. Palpatine didn't control everything in the Clone Wars. It did matter how many clones and droids were in action. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 00:56, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Even with Palpatine starting and effectively ending the war, he still didn't have full control over it nor did he influence everything. The only times we see him interfere, is when he wants someone specifically taken out or he needs to cover his tracks/ensure his own survival (and doing so with simply feeding information to the Confederacy). The only extent of his "chess playing" is to begin and end the war when necessary, keep it going long enough, and keep himself out of trouble. VT-16 17:02, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
 * So don't say that it didn't matter how many clones there were. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 20:00, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree with VT-16. The "chess game" of the Clone Wars is more like Palpatine telling two people to play a game of chess, and then whispering good moves to each side to keep the game going. Finally, when he's done, he has the pawns kill one of the players. Jobiwan7 14:32, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Not really. In the "chess game" known as the Clone Wars, Palpatine took breaks from "giving advice" to each side every so often. He didn't tell each player what to do at every single move. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 19:58, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
 * To keep the chess analogy going, I didn't mean Palpatine came up with every move; he just had a "suggestion" now and then. Jobiwan7 20:16, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, he didn't suggest everything. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 20:17, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I know--I'm trying to agree with you! My point was that Palpatine doesn't control everything. Jobiwan7 21:12, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Okay, you were confusing me for a second... Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 23:03, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Anyhoo, on the chess metaphor, What the GAR is in this chess game is a second chess set crreated by Palps so there IS a chess match to be played.
 * I am quite pleased with the inteligent responses my statement is receiveing, this says alot about the wookiepedia community!

Seeing that Palps is the leader of both the CIS and the Republic. It is kinda like he is playing chess with himself [Palps] actually. Sure he lets suborbinates take care of the more insignificant details. The overal stratergy for either side is his to decide. So if the clones started losing, He can make the Republic do a few good moves, the CIS do a few bad moves. and everythings back into place.
 * No. He wasn't playing himself. He didn't control the entire war. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 02:18, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
 * The few chess-aspects that exist, are there for Palpatine to accomplish two important things (one of which keeps getting ignored by a certain group of people): 1) Devastate the galaxy so the broken worlds will call out for a "strong man" to take control and establish order. 2) Separate the Jedi Knights as much as possible so they will be helpless when order 66 is given.
 * Both of these goals are easier to accomplish with a galactic conflict than with "brush-fire wars". And both are of course noted by the man who created SW, George Lucas (in the intro to Shatterpoint and in ROTS). VT-16 10:23, 20 May 2006 (UTC)


 * True. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 12:00, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I believe another of Palpatine's goals was to weaken or eliminate some of the stronger alien speices; Neimodians etc. Thrawn3.14 14:43, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, he certainly made them enemies of the Republic. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 20:50, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Edit-skirmish :P
I see there's been a slight edit-skirmish going on lately. Now I'm not sure where the one person was getting his numbers from, so I can't comment on that before he does. (Was it from the parade at the end of AOTC? That would be a good candidate for seeing how the army was divided into units. At least at the start of the war). VT-16 15:32, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
 * But how could one tell the number of troops in squads, companies, and battalions? Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 17:15, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
 * That's what I'm trying to find out. I suspect it has something to do with the way the clones are divided into columns during the parades in AOTC, but I'll have to ask the person who put it in. VT-16 19:15, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't think that one could determine the numbers of troops in squads, companies, or battalions by watching the movie. And also, anothing thing: Battle droids aren't directly comparable to clones. There were a ton of differences. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 19:43, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Clone Base
Where was the Headquarters (Main Base, Central Command, whatever you want to call it) of the Grand Army of the Republic? I'm assuming it was either on Kamino, the clone homeworld, or Coruscant, the Republic capital...but which? Also, was their a single General of the Army... or simply was the Supreme Chancellor in charge...or else who? -- Wolfdog
 * First: Coruscant. Second: Supreme Chancellor Palpatine. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 01:09, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Oh thanks. But would you know where on Coruscant? There is no specific central command ever mentioned unless in EU. Is there a specific building or anything?
 * I believe there was a building, though I'm not entirely sure. Republic Commando: Triple Zero says something, I believe. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 12:14, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
 * There are a number of military structures like the one we see Yoda and Obi-Wan departing from in RotS all over Coruscant, established post-AotC. The Executive Building also apparently looks out over a parade ground - Kwenn 20:10, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
 * True. But what is the main command building? Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 20:11, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Triple Zero only mention Arca Company barracks and the Bravo-something Supply Base, not the HQ building.
 * Good point. Normally I would say "Please don't restart old discussions", but that was important to the topic. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 01:10, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Numbers
Maybe the 200,000 units Lama Su mentioned were organized units instead of individual clones. This would account for the discrepency in the numbers. It would also allow the clones to fight on numerous worlds and suffer havey losses. Has anyone noticed that the clones, even though they are highly trained, are used for nothing but cannon fodder? Look at the Battle of Kashyyyk, they put like 50 snipers on a single tree branch.
 * "are used for nothing but cannon fodder". Not really. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 17:52, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, they are. There's nothing that separates ordinary troopers from ordinary battledroids. They're both complete cannon fodder. Special forces do not equal an entire army. The only difference is more creativity on the clones' part, but nothing more. VT-16 20:43, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
 * No. Clones are very different from droids. Clones can learn from their mistakes. Clones can develop personalities. What can droids do? They take orders from their commanders. That's about it. They do not care when many of their kind are destroyed. Take CT-914. He was upset when CT-915 was killed on Drongar. Clones cared. Droids didn't. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 21:47, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Droids as of AOTC are independent-minded and can learn: AOTC novel, ROTS VD. Kuralyov 05:32, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Battledroids do develop personalities, just watch the prequels, especially ROTS. The droid that gave Grievous the two lightsabres reacted to his rudeness, the pilot droids tried to flee when Obi-Wan and Anakin got free and Grievous had to tell them to stay at their posts despite being cut down. Then there's the two droids fleeing from the Acklay in AOTC. :P VT-16 12:59, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Point, but did droids care when another droid was destroyed? Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 13:28, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
 * No, they were brushed out of the way if they hindered operations. There was also a recycling system in place for collecting reusable parts for new droids. VT-16 14:25, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Exactly. Therefore, clone troopers =/= battle droids. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 15:36, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
 * You do realize those two points make battledroids superior as regular troopers, right? They're pros, not cons. VT-16 01:19, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
 * You yourself said that clone troopers are identical to battle droids. I've been making points to show that's incorrect. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 01:47, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
 * But it sounds like you treat droids << clones, which I pointed out isn't necessarily the case. Both groups have their pros and cons, but so far I've seen nothing to suggest an average clone can one-up an average droid. We've mostly just followed Jedi or spec force clones throughout many of the CW stories, and since they're main characters, they're even less likely to kick the bucket. VT-16 13:12, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm saying that clones are superior to droids in some ways. I'm not just talking about how their are in combat. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 13:17, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
 * But it is combat that ultimately matters the most to these two groups. Not their social life. VT-16 14:37, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I was only arguing this: "There's nothing that separates ordinary troopers from ordinary battledroids". Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 16:47, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Fine. Conceeded. VT-16 02:00, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
 * But you are correct that they are basically the same on the battlefield. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 20:28, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
 * in several articles on this very wiki it states a clone is more than a match for a commen droid...and i think this may of been stated in a book as well Jedi Dude 21:45, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Reasons for blankings
''owever, the reliability and quality of mercenaries and bounty hunters would not be high, and having large-scale non-clone troops available from the outset of the war would eliminate the need for a clone army or a controversy over the Military Creation Act. It should also be stated that the sources that depict non-clone forces prior to Geonosis are all extremely small-scale conflicts and minor battles.''

with its own commander stating that non-clones are far less than equals to battle droids

This was removed becuase it wasnt in contention. The quality and quantity of mercenaries, bounty hunters and soldiers isnt an issue to the numbers debate. Some are good, some are bad, given the population of a galaxy the number of possible recruited and conscripted is very very big. It doesnt matter that they were bad just that they were more numerous than the droids army.

Additionally, Traviss's own Triple Zero states that (at least up to that point of the war) all Acclamators are fully crewed by clones; combined with the twelve Acclamators present at Geonosis, that would mean that around 713,000 clones (or 23% the entire fighting force of the Republic) were tied up as largely noncombatant ship crews.

Cant find this quote, regarding "all acclamators" are crewed by clones. Additionally, some accs were crewed by non-clones accdng to Jedi Starfighter.

''ROTS:ICS also noted that because of millions of Separatist warships being locked up in battles with Republic fleets, only a few thousand frigates and destroyers could assault the galactic capital towards the end of the war, accompanying dozens of battleships. The Revenge of the Sith novel states (from the out-of-unvierse perspective of the narrator) that the CIS had pursued the war to that point through sheer force of numbers, with its droids outnumbering the clones.''

Not really important because everybody knows the droids does outnumber the clones.

although clones have been shown being gunned down with similar ease.

Another unimportant part... Clones can heal, droids get destroyed.

rom Star Wars Republic 50: The Battle of Kamino, a single droideka destroys an entire squad of ARC troopers and clone trainees.

Blatantly lie... the droideka kills one arc and none of the the trainees.
 * You know, you could have explained this in the first place and the page wouldn't have been locked... Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 14:36, 25 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Errr... followed the "Be bold" rule... --Razzy1319 20:31, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Yet a bold move like that needs some explanation for those who might dispute it. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 21:43, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I have always been someone who does stuff for a reason, I was more concerned by the fact that it was protected when I would have explained my actions when asked to do so, as if the mod assumed me to be a stupid and edit-mad user who would condone an edit war when all I was doing was removing unnecessary information. --Razzy1319 01:32, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
 * All of us (or at least most of us) do stuff for a reason here, Razz. I don't claim to have read the complete section here, so I won't speak to anything specific about it. But I do have a general rule I can recommend: don't wait till you're asked to explain stuff, especially if it's huge. When I add anything to a page, more often than not I put the source for my addition (down to the page number of what I sourced it from - usually a book - if available) in the Summary spot just below the edit box. That way if anybody cries foul, they can check that out and go "...Oh. Never mind..."

Our community here is kind of like the international scientific establishment. If one guy comes up with a theory that he thinks works, there are a hundred or even a thousand other guys happy to subject it to the most stringent analysis, break it apart if they can. And it's nothing personal; the objective is getting it right. And it works; it's the ultimate self-correcting system. It's not that different among professional historians, or even us amateurs here. If I add something that's just out there, the mob will fricasee me, unless they can see my backup right there and confirm that my data's good. So my advice is, "Be bold... but bring backup." Erik Pflueger 02:19, 26 June 2006 (UTC) Droids can be put back together again or recycled as we saw in TPM. When clones die, they stay dead. VT-16 20:47, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Razzy, think about it this way: You might know why you did it, but everyone else doesn't. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 13:33, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Clones can heal, droids get destroyed


 * So when is this page gonna be unlock so that I can remove the parts I have to remove? --Razzy1319 17:21, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
 * You can either a) ask an admin to unlock it and do the edit yourself or b) ask an admin to do the edit for you and then unlock it. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 18:48, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

ARC troopers?
Hey you guys, in the "Notable Divisions" sections, why isn't there a link to the ARC troopers? I know there's an article for that.
 * First: Please don't post at the top of the talk page. Second: ARC troopers aren't a division like the Galactic Marines. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 22:27, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't know if anyone has noticed this, however I have found an error in the numerical structure of the army as described on the page as it is.

Clone Marshal Commander Bly is the leader of the 327th Star Corps.

However, there cannot be 327 corps if we go by the structure laid out on the page as it is.

If there are 10 System Armies in the Grand Army, 2 Sector Armies in a System Army, and 4 Corps in a System Army, that would mean there are only 80 corps in the entire army: 10 x 2 x 4 = 80.

Like I said this would mean that there cannot be 327 corps, unless the army is at least 4 times larger than the page, as it is, would imply.

Hope this helps Starry Owl,,
 * Are you subscribed to Star Wars Insider? If so, you might want to take a look at the Guide to the Grand Army of the Republic in whatever issue it's in. It explains that the "327th" part doesn't mean that there are 326 Star Corps before it. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 19:41, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

On the topic of ARC troopers, are their any sources which say how many there were? Jedi Dude 16:09, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I believe it's six (originally twelve) Nulls and 100 Alphas. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 16:20, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, canon is canon. And we know that there are more then 100 ARCs, and more then 100 Alpha series - Republic Commando has Jango training thousands of ARCs, and Cestus Deception has Jang'tat nee Nate, an Alpha series ARC, being one of 1000 decanted in a single go. So the Alpha series was certainly more then 100, and there were more then 100 ARCs, but apparently only 100 of the Alpha series clones made the cut for ARC training. Lowkey 18:11, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
 * i thought that may have just been an initial number, becasue you know 100 arcs for all those armies... well they are special i suppose:p Jedi Dude 16:48, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, the sources only say "100 initial ARCs", but I've never seen something like "more Alpha-class ARCs were created in addition to the original 100". "Initial" in this case probably refers to the number before some were killed or went rogue. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 17:13, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
 * "generating the first 100 ARC troopers" from the arc article, the first 100, implying more were generated/cloned/produced? i find it hard to belive only 100 were in service..Jedi Dude 14:33, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
 * They were standard clone troopers. They were elite soldiers, like the clone commando. And no source has said that more than 100 Alpha-class ARCs were produced. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 14:35, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
 * they wern't like the commando's, specially if there were only 100, there were alot more commandoes than that, whole squads of them in armies. Which means the importence of the ARC's is even beggier than i thought, i knew they were elite but geeze 100! Jedi Dude 14:37, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, canon is canon. Plus, usually only one ARC went on a mission, not a squad. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 14:40, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
 * So, therefore, if only 100 Alpha-class clones made the cut for the ARC training, there's only 100 actual Alpha-class ARCs. The remainder would be standard clones, since they didn't have ARC training. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 19:25, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

I think this nails it
Due to not having constant access to ROTS:ICS, I wasn't aware of this part until it was highlighted by someone else:
 * "First page of the ROTS ICS, under the Republic entry mentions they are spending vast amounts of money on grand armies and fleets. grand armies being plural."

That's it. Case closed. The Grand Army is 3 million, but it's only one of many grand armies. Wow. I feel pretty stupid now. Well, I'm glad to have been in the wrong this time. :p VT-16 11:29, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
 * So, "Grand Army of the Republic" is the collective term for the many grand armies of the Republic. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 12:40, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Either it's the new "Star Destroyer" (a word meaning several things, like "destroyer" and "a design-lineage"), or there's a Grand Army and many of these together form the unified Grand Army of the Republic. VT-16 16:03, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
 * It's probably many grand armies to become the Grand Army. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 16:06, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
 * thats what i would think to. Jedi Dude 16:09, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Best thing is, it could possible explain (with some tweaking) the emphasis on 1.2 million clones used early on in the Wars, not as a total, but as an estimate per army-unit, i.e each Grand Army grew in size as the Wars continued. Perhaps 3 mill was the desired troop-strength of each army, and the various units were essentially under-strength in the early stages of the war. VT-16 18:23, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Let's hope so. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 18:43, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Here's the exact quote for when the article's ready to be edited again:
 * "The teetering government of the Galactic Republic desperately spends its waning wealth on grand armies and fleets to defend its territorial unity."

- Revenge of the Sith Incredible Cross Sections, p.3

Unfortunately it still doesn' explain away everything - the OoB explicetly states that the Jedi high council and ranking Jedi masters command this, and the article itself states 3 million is the total. Same for Odds. And the article still fails to match basically every other source, including the films. So while it matches my hypothesis that grand armies flow together into THE Grand Army, it doesn't solve everything. Lowkey 18:08, 6 August 2006 (UTC) "In response, the Old Republic assembled its own army by leveraging mysterious cloning technology to create a near-limitless supply of troops. Like the Confederacy, the Old Republic enjoyed immense wealth, funding the construction of even more fearsome weapons of war. The Clone Wars pitted history's two largest armies agaisnt each other. The conflict spread to nearly every inhabited world."--Jerry 00:36, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Excellent. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 14:25, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Then what would solve everything? Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 19:25, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
 * And another things what's the issue with the OoB? It doesn't seem to be an issue to me. Plus, if the article is your only "source", don't use it, due to the "anyone can edit" thing. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 19:26, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Note the lack of capitalization. The Grand Army was itself made up of many armies. There's a difference between a "grand army" and an organization actually called a Grand Army. Still, more forces around the time of RotS wouldn't contradict anything. And non-clone forces from the NEC are said to be a part of the GAR, but they're clearly not in the OoB from Insider 84. So more forces beyond the OoB is quite possible. -LtNOWIS 06:01, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree. Plus, didn't the Episode III Visual Dicitionary say that more clone troopers were being cloned from other templates? Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 12:37, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Just to add another quote into the mix for what it's worth, the New Essential Guide to Weapons and Technology had this to say about the Clone Wars (emphasis mine):
 * You're too late. VT-16 already provided the quote in the next section. ;) Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 00:39, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeah, just noticed. D'oh!--Jerry 00:40, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Sorry if I originally sounded a little harsh. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 00:58, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
 * No no, not at all. It was my fault entirely. But thank you.--Jerry 23:10, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
 * No problem. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 00:21, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

In case things weren't clear enough
"The Clone Wars proved to be a war of attrition, and the Republic sought to repair clones and Jedi with prosthetics whenever possible."

- New Essential Guide to Weapons & Technology, page 183

"In response, the Old Republic assembled its own army by leveraging mysterious cloning technology to create a near-limitless supply of troops. Like the Confederacy, the Old Republic enjoyed immense wealth, funding the construction of even more fearsome weapons of war. The Clone Wars pitted history's two largest armies against each other. The conflict spread to nearly every inhabited world."

- New Essential Guide to Weapons & Technology, page 13

You don't get a "war of attrition", "near limitless supply of clone troops" and "history's two largest armies pitted against one another" by having one consist of 3 million troops. VT-16 23:24, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Excellent points. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 00:34, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Attrition warfare involves one side grinding down the other with superior numbers. The first point doesn't really work. But the second one does. -LtNOWIS 00:59, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, since that first one came from TNEGtWaT, can there be another explanation for it? Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 11:43, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Actually, that's not necessarily the case, both factions could be evenly matched and grind each other down: Attrition warfare is a strategic concept which states that to win a war, one's enemy must be worn down to the point of collapse by continuous losses in personnel and materiel. The war will usually be won by the side with greater such reserves.
 * Even at the end of the CW, the Republic and CIS were at a stalemate. Despite pushing the CIS out of the Core, Republic forces were also being pushed out of star systems elsewhere, or tied up in month-long sieges in the Outer Rim (from Evasive Action: Reversal of Fortune and the ROTS novelization). VT-16 23:14, 11 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Both quotes come from the same book. VT-16 14:56, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes. And as for the "war of attrition" part, why exactly can't that work? Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 17:40, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Okay, now I know that it can work. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 14:32, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I just noticed something: since the article is about the combined military forces of the Republic during the CW, this would also cover the multiple grand armies mentioned above, big letters or no. VT-16 18:41, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Excellent point. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 20:58, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Unprotect?
Can this article please be unprotected already? Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) 12:36, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I think jack's right, the dispute has been resolved now so can we have it accessible again? Jedi Dude 12:42, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I think the dispute has been over for a long time anyway. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 12:42, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
 * So can the article please be unprotected now? Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) (Data file) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 00:18, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Done. --Azizlight 00:30, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Thank you. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) (Data file) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 00:54, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
 * So, can I make my deductions now? --Razzy1319 06:09, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I suppose so. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) (Data file) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 14:09, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Latest edits
Someone had put in their personal interpretation of why Labyrinth of Evil's description of clones being "omnipresent" on Coruscant should be disregarded, with non-canon claims that this was Bail Organa and therefore was only talking about the Senate district, and similar apologetics not supported by the actual text. The clone troopers are described as an omnipresent force everywhere where beings gathered or mingled: shuttle landing platforms, plazas, banks, hotels, theatres, etc, acting as anti-terrorist force, searching crowds, belongings, residences. Rumors of antiwar demonstrations put down by force, disappearances and seizures of proviate property, etc. And most importantly, that "the majority of Coruscanti" had accepted this state of affairs. This is most certainly not a description of just one District, nor is there any indication or evidence that Bail is exaggerating- indeed, it's not Bail's thoughts at all (Bail's thoughts are in italics, the relevant passages are not.) There's also an ambiguous sentence about the "Coruscant security force" somehow "disregarding" the facts as related in Labyrinth of Evil- but I don't see how it changes anything. The passage in LoE is talking about Clones, specifically, not the CSF. Basically, we should simply report what the text in question says, not take the opportunity to make non-canon claims about why it should be disregarded. Especially for an issue like this.Vymer 13:06, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

... And I see Razzy1319 has not only reverted my edit, providing no reason whatsoever for doing so and ignoring the reasons I have stated above, he has also made numerous other unexplained edits. Please explain and justify Razzy1319, especially in terms of why you think your interpretation of Labyrinth of Evil is correct. Unless you have a canon justification for why you think x or y should be "disregarded", my edits in terms of LoE should stay. The other changes you made look similarly unjustified, and look like the removal of relevant evidence wholesale. Droideka reference was removed as per the reasons you stated above, but I don't see why you got rid of anything else.Vymer 14:06, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

1. LOE confirms the number of clones being in the low millions and lowers this number by half and even further by stating a percentage of those are being sent out to the outer rim. 2. One of the Republic Comics shows clones arent an omnipresent force on Coruscant becuase they have to hire Bounty Hunters. Triple Zero also confirms this but it is earlier in the war. 3. The clone garrison isnt located on Coruscant, its on one of the moons.
 * my reasons for blankings have been documented here already. As for reverting your edit, LOE's description of the soldiers' omnipresence is in contention for the following reasons:

Given that and the current stance of LFL to keep the number in the low millions then its either the description is a metaphor or its the author speaking in a very tight POV, preferrably Bail. --Razzy1319 14:27, 30 August 2006 (UTC)


 * (you should have put an asterix before your post, btw) In terms of 1, that's not accurate. What LoE says is that Palpatine has committed half of Coruscant's home force to the Outer Rim Sieges. We don't know how big the home force is in total. Just because he commits 200,000 additional troopers to the Outer Rim Sieges earlier on doesn't mean that they are the half being spoken of, nor do we know how "home force" is defined. Part of the security forces? Or an offensive force?
 * In terms of 2, which Republic comic, hire Bounty Hunters to do what, and when?
 * In terms of 3, what is the source for this claim, and what has it go to do with what is stated in LoE? Irrespective of where the garrison is, LoE is very clear. Also, I could not see your reason for blanking anything else but the droideka reference.Vymer 14:43, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

In any event, I note that the LoE entry as originally put before my edit addressed none of these points, and instead simply made the claim that it's Bail's POV and is just one District. That might be acceptable if it didn't contradict the passage wholesale, but it obviously does. As far as LFL's "current stance" is concerned, I don't see why we should bend over backwards to twist every source that doesn't follow the current party line because of that.Vymer 14:47, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Vymer is right here. Razzy, keep your trolling to yourself, it won't be tolerated here much longer. Also, there is no Republic comic that shows bounty hunters being hired to keep the peace on Coruscant, and the presence of clone troopers training on a moon has nothing to do with them being everywhere on Coruscant. Kuralyov 14:51, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
 * FYI, next time Razzy reverts without explanations, he will be banned. Kuralyov 15:11, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I can remember a post-CW issue of Republic having mercenaries being hired to track down a fugitive naval officer, but that was it (and since bounty hunters do exist in real life, despite larger police forces, this is not an issue). The visual sources dealing with Palpatine's "new security measures" during the war, also show clone troopers prominently in the streets. VT-16 19:04, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
 * True. Razzy, you went out of line with your edits. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 20:06, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Bull... I didnt erase anything other than what I erased before, Jack. Kuralyov's just being a bitch about threatening me with a ban once more I've already explained it. he didnt even counter my old reasons. VT, Clone troopers hiring bounty hunters in the place where they are supposed to be, described to be omnipresent is a conflict.
 * They were hired to get him in the most seedy of places on Coruscant. Coruscant does have areas in control by criminal organizations (like Black Sun) and I doubt the Clones would be as numerous in these places. (And, as Vymer said, their armor would be poor for infiltration.) This is not a conflict. And I hope this new act now gets you banned. VT-16 09:51, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

And razzy's done it again. Why do you insist on putting back that "this is further disregarded due to the Coruscant Security Force and the fact that some clone troopers were sometimes stationed on-planet as a show of force or security"? Not only is it a poor sentence, what does this have to do with what Labyrinth of Evil said? Further, this: "description itself is a subject of contention since Star Wars Republic 78: Loyalties shows the supposed omnipresence of the clones to be severely limited due to use of bounty hunters to perform the task of apprehending a criminal." As those have noted, this proves nothing. That's not the Clones role (anti-terror, keeping the peace, etc), and deciding to use bounty hunters instead of highly visible Clones (who are soldiers) does not somehow mean there are only a few clones on Courscant- especially when Republic 78 is a good time after LoE anyway. And I repeat, the claim that this is just Bail and just one District is simply not in agreement with the text. You've also deleted the reference to Acclamator crews. Why? You've eliminated the thing about bounty hunters earlier. Why? You've changed the facts as related in the Grievous short-story to "allegedly had". Why? You've deleted the reference to the RotS:ICS wholesale. Why? You've also deleted the canonical fact that Clones have been shown to be easily gunned down.Vymer 02:45, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Re: the latest edit by Silly Dan (a more NPOV version of razzy's argument) I'll leave it for what some of the other guys think. I persoanlly don't think it's necessary to say what some think about what Republic 78 or the CSF mean in relation to LoE, but I'm going to leave it as is. Anyone else want to offer their view?Vymer 06:29, 31 August 2006 (UTC) Thanks for that- looking at the edit, I'm still of the view that mentioning the CSF isn't really relevant to the topic of what LoE says about the clones- it is "the cloned troopers" specifically it's talking about, after all. In addition to what I said above, stating that bounty hunters "supplemented" the security forces on Coruscant is also not accurate- they were hired in one instance specifically by Darth Vader, at Palpatine's suggestion, to catch one man. There's no evidence that they were peroforming any Clonetrooper duties like those described in LoE as far as I know.Finally, while its true that "some fans" (in this case, Razzy) feel that this is just one district, the passage disagrees with that.Vymer 14:20, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Vymer, I agree with you. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 11:13, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Agreed, again. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 19:54, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
 * To be honest, I had not read the sources in question: I was just concerned that in the course of your edit war, both of you may have been removing relevant information. Hence, I attempted to add a more neutrally worded version of Razzy's edits. From what Vymer said, those bits of evidence probably are too ambiguous to add. Perhaps someone disagrees and thinks they should go back? &mdash;Silly Dan (talk) 20:15, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm fine with the way it is now. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 20:16, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
 * More curious about what people who haven't posted in this section of the discussion thought, actually....8) &mdash;Silly Dan (talk) 20:23, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I know. I'm sort of thinking of it as a vote, for some reason, which is why I wrote that. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 20:26, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I am of the opinion that Vymer brings up good points that Razzy has offered no response to, and none of Razzy's points should be included. Kuralyov 23:49, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 00:26, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I will continue the blankings in 24 hours since I have already explained my reasons in this same page above titled, "reasons for blankings", since no one has provided as source for the acclamator crew issue or made a counter argument against my other arguments then as I said earlier I will continue the blankings. As for the Labyrinth Of Evil issue, I will revert it to Silly Dan's NPOV edit since although the narrator indicates the supposed omnipresence of the clones it also states that the omnipresence is what Bail is feeling at the moment because of his problems with the security measures meaning that the omnipresence is and only is in Bail's mind, who the text also says has been away from Coruscant. I will revert this part in 24 hours --Razzy1319 18:19, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Then I suppose I'll revert it back. You were banned because of your edits, Razzy. I don't think you want to be banned again for the same reason. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 19:04, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Razzy, you've been banned once for edit warring, don't do it again. And don't make threats either. If you are still convinced your points must be added to the article, try putting some proposed text on this page (and I'll urge the other editors to at least consider any revised wording he proposes.) &mdash;Silly Dan (talk) 20:50, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I'll agree to that. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 22:25, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Again thats Bull... I am not threatening I am warning people of my edits which will occur in less than 12 hours... the blankings are explained above, if you dont know how to read thats your problem, if you dont know how to look above at the other subheadings then ask an admin... if you have a counter argument then counter my arguments until then I will continue the blankings. Read the reasons above. As for the LOE reedit, as I said above the text in the book doesnt describe clone being omnipresent literally, it describes Bail's apprehension, his feeling that the clones are omnipresent. Meaning that they arent omnipresent. --210.213.199.166 04:40, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, I'm looking forward to getting to ban you again, then. Kuralyov 06:27, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
 * The counter argument is simple, you are wrong, and to be honest if you want your view to be looked at with any form of seriousness you aren't going the right way about it. Jedi Dude 09:13, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Some random thoughts about the other of Razzy's blankings. His reasoning for blanking the point on bounty hunters etc is inadequate. The point is that having large-scale non-clone troops available from the outset of the war would eliminate the need for a clone army or a controversy over the Military Creation Act. Triple Zero and Acclamator Clone crews: saying one can't find the quote is insufficient reason to delete it. I've read Triple Zero, and at one point (and this isnt the sole one, mind you) it refers to Fi being able to tell whether fellow clones he saw in a civilian setting were infantry or ship's crew by the way they walked. If ship's crew weren't clones, he wouldn't have to know how they walked at all- ship's crew would be non-clones by definition. For that matter, We see Clones on the bridge of an Acclamator in the Clone Wars cartoon, clearly manning the stations. The RotS:ICS quote is very relevant. Given the capacities and crew of Separatist warships, noting that there are millions of such ships (and millions of Republic ships, as well) is of course quite significant when thinking about both Clone and droid numbers. Its not a simple matter of "Everyone knows the droids outnumber the clones". Getting rid of the fact that Clones are often gunned down with ease is the least justified of them all. Clones can heal, droids get destroyed? Leaving aside that the clones are outnumbered, a droid can be repaired (Refer to the battle with the gungans in TPM, where the little droids are gathering all the "destroyed" battle droids in a neat pile, presumably for reassembly/salvage later). On the topic of LoE, I've said as much as necessary short of quoting the passage word for word to demonstrate there is no indication that this is just one District or that this is just Bail being paranoid. Just so razzy has an idea of why people don't think his blankings are justified.Vymer 10:51, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Razzy, don't be an idiot and get yourself banned again. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 14:38, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Good, just one more abuse count on Kural then. Vymer, Quality of Nonclones: from various sources(SHW, NEC, SWJSF, CWA, COD) we know, that there is a large population of possible conscripts and military infrastruture ready and willing. The controversy of the military creation act is based on the centralization of these forces and its use for war thus the quality of nonclones arent in contention they just have to be there and be plentiful. Acclamator: Ive read the book 3 times. nowhere does it say all Accs were crewed by clones all the time... give me the quote, ive asked the same from the person who posted it. Until today they havent given it and because the person who put it in there has a history of putting lies into this wiki then it must be removed until proven canon. Clone Wars Cartoon: We see non clones manning the bridge in other sources too. ROTSICS: So if there are millions of Separatists ships? that means billions of droids. and then? Does that mean that the clones are finished? Ofcourse not. because not all ships are driven by clones... As said earlier nonclones are there. it doesnt matter that the droids outnumber the clones because it only takes a small fraction of the galaxies population to outnumbner the droids. Clones Gunned Down: Tell me how clones you see get gunned down in Aotc versus the droids. LOE, then get the quote on here. Its clearly a metaphor, a hyperbole. How can you render omnipresent literally to a force not even their leader can trust to find one captain. The narrator even tells you the story from what Bail is seeing rather than a description of what the entire Coruscant is experiencing. Post it here so everyone can see. The inclusion of the Triple Zero information is also important as to not overplay the literal godliness that you give the clones credit for... --210.213.199.166 02:45, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Quality of non-clones: you missed the point about the entire point of creating a clone army. Acclamator crews: It is not incumbent on me to prove that "all Accys were crewed by Clones all the time". That's an impossible standard of proof, and an irrelevant one. The point is that there are clearly and unambigiously clones who are trained as ships crew, not infantry. Period. I told you what the quote says, and it's meaning is clear. RotS ICS: yes, billions of droids minimum. That's why it's there. I think everyone else can see why that's important considering Odds. Clones gunned down in AotC? We see several. RotS is more instructive in that regard. The initial charge on Utapau were several are gunned down in the space of seconds, for one. Kashyyyk as well. I didn't think it was possible for someone to argue Clones weren't easily killed, but if I have to point out the obvious .... finally, LoE, you want the quote, you've got it. - The new Coruscant, he thought.

Faceless, blaster-wielding soldiers on the shuttle landing platforms, in the plazas, arrayed in front of '''banks, hotels, theaters, wherever beings gathered or mingled. Scanning the crowds, stopping anyone who fit the current possible terrorist profile, conducting searches of individuals, belongings, residences. Not on a whim, because the cloned troopers didn't operate like that'''. They answered merely to their training, and the duties they performed were for the good of the Republic.

One heard rumors about antiwar demonstrations being put down by force; of disappearances and seizures of private property. Proof of such abuses of power rarely surfaced, and was quickly discredited.

'''The omnipresence of the soldiers seemed to bother Bail more than it did his few friends on Coruscant or his peers in the Senate. He had tried to attribute his agitation to the fact that he hailed from pacific Alderaan, but that explained only some of it'''. What bothered him most was the ease with which the majority of Coruscanti had acclimated to the changes. Their willingness—almost an eagerness—to surrender personal freedoms in the name of security. And a false security, at that. For while Coruscant seemed far from the war, it was also at the center of it.

Now, three years into a conflict that might have been ended as abruptly as it had begun, every new security measure was taken in stride. Except, of course, by mem-bers of those species most closely associated with the Separatist agenda—Geonosians, Muuns, Neimoidians, Gossams, and the rest—many of whom had been ostracized or forced to flee the capital. Having lived for so long in fear and ignorance, few Coruscanti stopped to question what was really going on. Least of all the Senate itself, which was so busy modifying the Constitution that it had completely abandoned its role as a balancing arm of the government.

Before the war, widespread corruption had stifled the legislative process. Bills languished, measures sat for years without being addressed, votes were protested and subjected to endless recounts… But one effect of the war had been to replace corruption and inertia with dereliction of duty. Reasoned discourse and debate had become so rare as to be archaic. In a political climate where representatives were afraid to speak their minds, it was easier—and thought to be safer—to cede power to those who at least appeared to have some grasp of the truth.

"You're free to go," the trooper said at last, apparently satisfied that Bail was in fact who his credentials claimed him to be. - It's not a metaphor (how the heck can it be a metaphor? Metaphor for what?), it's not hyperbole, it's not one district (as clearly evidenced by where I've bolded the text), and it's not just Bail. Period- there's no evidence for your attempts to dismiss this clear passage anywhere in there. And since when do I give the Clones credit for being "godly"? I'm accurately reporting what the book says, and no more.Vymer 09:20, 3 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Quality of Nonclones: the clone army wasnt even discussed as an option during the military creation act, give a source that does, the creation of the clone army predates the military creation act. How can something be a topic of controversy when one does not know the clone army even exist?
 * Accs: Yet that is what the sentence says... that all accs are crewed by clones, thats called inaccurate, bordering on a blatant lie, also there is evidence that says nonclones were used as crew during the battle of geonosis. And since you cannot prove it, I will remove that one first.
 * ToBeContinued
 * Razzy, knock it off. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 13:27, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

To Razzy, Quality of nonclones: you're missing the point, again. The point of the quote is not that clones were discussed in the military creation act, the point is that the entire controversy about the military creation act would be a fiction if there were large numbers of non-clone forces available to actually have a chance of countering the Separatist threat. There'd already be a military. The availability of those large numbers of troops would also obviate the need for a clone force in totality. Accs: Bordering on a blatant lie? Funny, then perhaps you can explain this quote from Triple Zero as well, which is even more explicit- you do remember Ordo asking for leave for his clone troopers from Rugeyan, right? How they don't get any? - "We have two battalions of the Forty-first Elite back in barracks and an assault ship's crew waiting on a refit. If someone could come up with the idea of an extended leave with the men allowed and encouraged to go off base, I think everyone would benefit. And maybe some credits to spend, because they don't get paid. A nice feel good story for the media." - It doesn't get much more obvious than that. An explicit quote of Ordo asking for leave for the Clones (in barracks or training when they're on downtime), and an assault ship's crew is included in the reckoning. Acclamator's are crewed by Clones. Triple Zero says it, Clone Wars says it, RotS implies it (Clone gunners at Battle of Coruscant)and the massive numbers of Clone starfighter pilots (i.e. also part of the Navy) supports it.Vymer 12:49, 5 September 2006 (UTC) And just for kicks, here's another one: - Yes, I know I should be directing the battle from the ship. Yes, I know we could reduce the surface of Dinlo to molten slag from orbit. But we can extract more than a thousand men, and that's worth doing. I asked for volunteers and I got the whole ship's crew and every man in Improcco Company, and not from blind obedience. Let me try. - He's talking about Clones.Vymer 12:53, 5 September 2006 (UTC)


 * and nowhere in those quotes do they say the crew is clones... You assume the crew is clones. One is about giving leave to clones and crew not just clones and the other is the same differentiating crew from clones.
 * Quality of Nonclones: where exactly is this discussion of clone in the military creation act? is that your fanon? The galaxy has a military infrastructure already, how can you deny that that infrastructure doesnt exist when several canon, i repeat, CANON, sources show it. Although it is still an assumption based on the fact that nobody knew of a clone army, no mention of a clone army or creating one can be seen in sources dealing with the Military Creation Act then how the hell does it explain the controversy of the creation act? Simple, its a government with no military just members with military, although the government has no control whatsoever with this localized military the controversy is over the government making the military and using this military in a war.

That is total nonsense. You are clearly in the realm of outright denial. Ordo is talking about his damn clones, not clones and some miscellaneous non-clone crew. It's the clones who don't get leave and spend all their time in barracks and training- what, you think non-clones would do the same? The fact that Fi tells the difference between ship-crew clones (ie, the ones Ordo is obviously talking about!) and infantry clones makes that even more blindingly obvious. You're simply in denial, and frankly, we're obviously all sick of it. That you'd go so far to assert that Fi needs to look at how ship's crew walks to tell the difference between them and infantry just goes to show you can't be bothered reading the passage. It's a group of clones he's looking at- not only does the passage explicitly say that, the very fact that he needs to differentiate them by how they walk confirms it- or is Fi so thick in the head that he doesn't think that these ship's crew have ... different faces? Jeez .... And I see you're still totally misrepresenting the point about the Military Creation Act. How you continue posting refutations of things I have never said is beyond me. The galaxy has a military infrastructure? Sorry, what do you think the Military Creation Act is for? It's in the name. To create a military. Any militaries in the galaxy at that point were small scale local affairs that were absolutely no match for the Droid Army. Did you miss Dooku asking how the Republic could come up with an army so quickly? They didn't have significant military forces to fight the Separatist threat before the Clone Army was created. Period. Everyone seems to understand this but you.Vymer 13:41, 5 September 2006 (UTC) Yes, there is. I'm tired of your stonewalling. What makes my interpretation correct is that it's what the book says. Ordo isn't talking about non-clone crew, he's talking about clone crew. Clones don't get leave. That's the whole point. Fi is looking at clones approaching him, and only clones. Not only do you ignore this fact outright, you also require us to believe that Fi is a raving imbecile. What kind of fool needs to look at the way someone walks when simply seeing their face will do? He has to look at how this group of clones is walking because that's his only hope of telling what branch they're from. And none of those links of yours proves anything whatsoever. Small scale, pathetic skirmishes. There was no military available to face the Separatists, that's what the Military Creation Act was for, and what made the Clone Army necessary. That you're desperate enough to cite puny anti-piracy actions and the Judicial Forces (i.e. not a military) demonstrates that in spades. Unless you're strawmanning my position into claiming there were no armed forces at all, which I never said. Vymer 14:36, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Dude, there is nothing in that book or in the quotes you just provided that says clones = crew... it always differentiates between the two. Fi differentiating the walks says it all. clone walk versus crew walk. what makes your interpretation, your assumption right?
 * QON-C:, Sabaoth Squadron, Republican Army, Yinchorri Uprising, Lok Revenants, Academy of Carida, Dreadnaught-class heavy cruiser, Invincible-class dreadnaught, Nebula Front, Militarist, Katana fleet, [[Image:UnknownBattleRe.jpg|100px|right]] add to that numerous other weapons and military organizations active during this timeline. --Razzy1319 14:18, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Time to make it more abundantly clear: -

"Here comes the Forty-first," he said. "You can always rely on the infantry . . ." [ie. the 41st released on leave at Ordo's request, along with the ship's crew]

A dozen or so brothers were ambling along, gazing around them and being gazed at by shoppers who had clearly never seen clones before. No matter how many times Fi saw that reaction, he always found himself wondering what they found so strange about it, and then had to see his own world as the rest of the galaxy saw it. The Forty-first were level with them now.

Fi smiled fraternally and got a bewildered nod or two in return. They don't recognize me! That felt strange. All his commando brothers knew him. And he could tell infantry from ship's crew by the way they walked. He walked between the men of the Forty-first with Sev like a marching band merging, and spun around at the back of the group to walk back toward the target.

She was still sitting there. But she was looking the other way.

She was staring at another group of clone troopers heading toward her from the other direction.

"I love being a familiar face," Fi said. His anxiety gave way to a sense of heightened awareness, - This continued mass quoting wouldn't be necessary if razzy wasn't being so obtuse, but I want to leave no doubt as to the canon facts. His assertion that ship's crew could be referring to non-clones is totally debunked.Vymer 14:49, 5 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Again, it makes no mention of clones = crew. It just said that Fi can discern between Clones and Crew nothing more.
 * QoN-C: Skirmishes? They are called Wars for a reason. The fact that Rendili has dreadnaughts, Kuat has Star dreadnaughts, a lot of planets have defense forces and etc are canon and you insist they dont exist? Thats called making your own canon. The issue of the Military Creation Act isnt the creation of the clones its the creation of a military under republic orders, local militias united under the republic, a military not commanded by localized interest, a military that can declare war and draft soldiers. The necessity of the clones was artificial, due to the time constraint palpatine introduced, if the creation act was passed without the interference of clone army at geonosis what do you think would have happend? Republic dead? game over? No it would have taken time for the CIS to build up, enough time for people to be conscripted. You think somehow after Military Creation Act the Republic is gonna order clones and wait ten years for them to be done without making up it own army? --Razzy1319 15:14, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Deny it all you want. The meaning of the passage is crystal clear- he's thinking about why the Clones don't recognize him when all his commando brothers know him and he can tell the difference between types of clones by an idiosyncracy like walking (which would be pointless if ship's crew were not clones, for reasons obvious to all but you). Your inability to answer any of my points in that regard is on display for all to see. The infantry and crew Ordo wants released for leave are clones, Fi knows clones can be either infantry or ship's crew. Period. As for your continued strawmen about the other passage, they're just that. I never said anything "doesn't exist". I never said the issue of the Military Creation Act was the creation of the clones. You're clearly not interested in reading anything anyone has to say and are content to stamp your feet and insist that something is so even when the quote proving otherwise is staring you right in the face. I already said that the puny defense forces in existence before this were obviously not considered a factor in meeting the Separatist threat, by anyone. I've had it up to my eyeballs trying to reason with you- though I will note, amusingly, that your no-evidence claim that there'd be enough time to conscipt people to fight the CIS (obviously false given that the TF had been building up for a decade and was about to combine its armies with those of the Techno Union and overwhelm the Republic) is an implicit concession of the entire point of the passage, which is that there were nowhere near enough or good enough forces to fight the Separatists.Vymer 15:26, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Right this is gone on long enough and clearly no matter what each of you says the other is not going to listen, I think it needs to stop now. However just to point out that again and again Vymer's points are over-shining yours as you fail to address them Razzy. Jedi Dude 15:47, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I'll say this has gone on for far too long... Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 20:31, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Razzy will again be banned the next time he edits this article. And the ban will not be so short this time. Kuralyov 04:45, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Now Razzy is complaining on my talk page about the same nonsense he claims to be correct. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 11:20, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

I find it amazing he continues to insist in the face of all evidence to the contrary that Triple Zero does not in fact say what it says- i.e. that Acclamators have clone crew. It's really quite remarkable- for example, he apparently seriously read Ordo's conversation with Rugeyan and came away thinking "well, obviously Ordo is talking about non-clone crew there- which means perfectly normal recruits don't get paid, get no leave, and spend all their time in barracks in Star Wars- just like the Clones." Makes perfect sense, that. Vymer 14:59, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
 * He also insists that bounty hunters did the same job as clones&mdash;Yeah, right. Maybe bounty hunters were used in the same role as Palpatine's guards. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 20:11, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Depth of article
Is it just me, or is this article way too short for such a vital subject. A topic this important should be more than a list with a small history section, I think. -  Angel Blue (Holonet) 17:09, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 19:10, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm going to go ahead and nominate it for next week's improvement drive. -  Angel Blue [[Image:Holocron negwt.jpg|20px]](Holonet) 21:28, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Good idea. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 21:30, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Palpatine and the GAR
I thought it would be important to point one thing out. It's stated in this article (based on the Insider article) that Palpatine was commander-in-chief of the Grand Army. However, according to the Revenge of the Sith novelization, the Jedi Council acted as commander-in-chief with Palpatine only holding that position in the very last few days of the Clone Wars. Northerner 21:13, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, in Yoda: Dark Rendezvous, Yoda and Mace are advisors to Palpatine on the war, so I think the Jedi Council was more of an advisor to the commander-in-chief than the actual commander-in-chief. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 01:29, 29 October 2006 (UTC)


 * That may be. However, the novelization is quite clear on that the GAR answered directly to the Jedi Council and not to the Supreme Chancellor. The line "Palpatine is now the Supreme Commander of the Grand Army of the Republic" is also spoken by Anakin (ROTS novelization, pg 254 paperback). The novelization is also higher canon. Northerner 06:57, 29 October 2006 (UTC)