Talk:Darth Sidious

*sigh* Name.........
OK, so, I have to say this. The most common name for Palpatine in the Disney continuity ("Canon") is "Palpatine". "Sheev" occurs once, and "Sheev Palpatine" occurs nowhere. Per Wookieepedia's naming policy, the most often used name is preferred. "There's been a lengthy debate going on at Qymaen jai Sheelal over whether the article should really be there instead of at "Grievous". Some say it's more professional and encyclopedic to use birth names (and that redirects prevent any subsequent confusion), while others say the same about whatever name the individual used last, and/or was more widely known as, citing Mark Twain on Wikipedia as one such example. As the result of this debate could set precedent for the moving of many other articles, such as Padme Amidala, Mara Jade Skywalker, Leia Organa Solo, and so on, I felt it was worth discussion amongst a larger audience. CooperTFN 18:22, 26 February 2006 (UTC)" A more pertinent example from Wikipedia would be every single Roman Emperor from Augustus to Constantine Palaeologus. The Augustus article is not titled "Gaius Octavius", it is titled "Augustus" (like Augustus, Palpatine is never known to have used his given name as Emperor, and we have no evidence that anyone except Tarkin, once, ever did). The article on Philip the Arab is titled "Philip the Arab", not "Marcus Julius Philippus", the article on Julian is titled "Julian", not "Flavius Claudius Iulianus", the article on Diocletian is "Diocletian", not "Diocles" or "Gaius Valerius Diocletianus", etc. OK, so who cares about Wikipedia, this is Wookieepedia, right? Well, I'd argue that we should have waited to see "Sheev Palpatine" used a few times (or, you know, at least once, maybe) before we renamed the article, because according to Wookieepedia rules, "the most commonly known [...] name" is to be used when the character has many names, and "Palpatine" is the most commonly known name. I am talking about the article title, here, not the introductory paragraph, which should begin with "Sheev Palpatine" in bold letters. And also all the canon articles that mention Palpatine. --R5-X41238-G8-R3-3124-D2 (talk) 22:06, October 25, 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't see what the fuss is all about. His first name is Sheev and his last name Palpatine. We always have full names in article titles. 1358  (Talk)  22:12, October 25, 2014 (UTC)
 * (Edit conflict) You're misinterpreting the naming policy. The "most common name" argument applies to when people have multiple names. For example, Qymaen jai Sheelal is the Legends birth name for Grievous, but his most commonly used name in-universe is Grievous. Hence the article being titled Grievous. Similarly, it's why the articles about Palpatine use his real name, rather than Darth Sidious. But Sheev is Palpatine's actual first name in canon. It's not an alternate name, like Darth Sidious is. It's his actual name. Therefore, the "most common name" argument doesn't apply, because we use his full name. - Brandon Rhea (talk) 22:15, October 25, 2014 (UTC)
 * I understand that full names are preferred; I'm just saying that in this case, it would be prudent to wait and see if the first name is used (the one use of it that we have makes it seem like it's some kind of state secret) before using it all over the place. Maybe I can understand its use in the article title. But in every other article, making it seem anyone would ever call "Palpatine" "Sheev Palpatine", in-universe? Why? --R5-X41238-G8-R3-3124-D2 (talk) 22:25, October 25, 2014 (UTC)
 * It's his real name, so we use his real name. It's that simple, really. The naming policy is very clear on this front. It doesn't really matter if the name "Sheev" is rarely used in-universe, because it's still his real name. - Brandon Rhea (talk) 22:27, October 25, 2014 (UTC)
 * Sure, whatever. I had to say it, though. For my soul. --R5-X41238-G8-R3-3124-D2 (talk) 22:36, October 25, 2014 (UTC)
 * Regarding the point of using it widely in other articles, I'm sure there are other characters too who more commonly went by a particular name, but the full name is still used regularly in articles. For example, I'm pretty sure that's the case with the article example given on the naming policy page, Jabba Desilijic Tiure. Personally, I'm fine with the name. As I was reading, it's referential of "Shiva," which follows a practice of Hindu name references that's also used with other names of Naboo people. And for those that really think it's dumb-- well, that's perfect. If you don't like it, maybe he didn't either; that's why he never used it! ProfessorTofty (talk) 23:51, October 25, 2014 (UTC)
 * Just out of morbid curiosity, how many times and under what circumstances is Palpatine called "Sheev" in Tarkin? I don't have that book.-- Richterbelmont10  R2 sig.jpg( come in R2! ) 03:59, October 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * Tarkin calls him Sheev on page 93 of Tarkin, which you can see in the preview on Amazon.com. It's referred to as his first name. - Brandon Rhea (talk) 04:08, October 26, 2014 (UTC)

I know. It appeared in the Canon book Star Wars Ultimate and like you said in Tarkin--73.169.180.53 23:36, January 3, 2017 (UTC)

Name... again
I agree that the title of this page should be his full name. However, why do we use his full name when linking to this page, when he is almost always known simply by his surname? Shouldn't links in other articles just read as Palpatine? --' DK Wolf 27 '   Holonet Channel  03:37, November 16, 2014 (UTC) As I see it His first name is not used much in the original saga nor TCW or SW Rebels, and is therefore irrelevant.--73.169.180.53 23:38, January 3, 2017 (UTC)
 * Nothing prevents you from doing so. That's what I do most of the time. Lelal Mekha  Old Republic military symbol.svg(Audience Room) 09:43, November 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * But there's no reason not to either. Jabba is normally known as "Jabba the Hutt," but on many of our Legends pages, he is still referred to as "Jabba Desilijic Tiure." ProfessorTofty (talk) 10:47, November 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * But nothing prevents any editor from using "Jabba the Hutt" in a Legends article if he/she wants. It's a perfectly valid nomenclature, and it all boils down to the editor's preference. Likewise, I usually pipelink Galactic Empire" to "First Galactic Empire''. -- Lelal Mekha  Old Republic military symbol.svg(Audience Room) 10:53, November 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * Okay, that's cool, I just saw loads of articles where his full name is used and didn't want to be inconsistent. I thought maybe there was a rule saying we should use the full name when linking here. --' DK Wolf 27 ' Imp roundel 2ndempire.svg  Holonet Channel  01:40, November 17, 2014 (UTC)

Lightsaber combat
The article states that the only person known to have defeated Sidious in lightsaber combat was Mace Windu. I still think this point is debatable, as I think being disarmed and at the point of Windu's lightsaber was all part of Sidious' design to seduce Anakin to the dark side. In that regard I'd say Sidious allowed Windu to get the upper hand, because the sight of Windu about to slay a seemingly defenseless old man (who had promised to save Padme from death) would be the final temptation to bring Anakin fully to the dark side.

I know it's debatable and there may never be agreement on who was truly the better combatant, and I think the article should reflect this uncertainty. Q-Wing (talk) 19:08, November 22, 2014 (UTC)

Ditto with Anakin Skywalker "having visions" of Padme's death and Palpatine "taking advantage" of that event. Isn't it much more likely that Palpatine caused these visions? Or at least helped them? --JRBaldauf (talk) 06:27, December 2, 2014 (UTC)
 * Regarding the first point- I agree completely. Feel free to edit as you see fit regarding that. Regarding the second, now this seems much more speculative to me, given that there has never been any information provided, either in canon or Legends for that matter, that I know of, that would indicate it's possible to induce or manipulate such visions. ProfessorTofty (talk) 08:52, December 2, 2014 (UTC)

In ROTS, he does seem to be defeated by Windu, however the fact that he kills Windu soon thereafter seems to say different.--73.169.180.53 23:41, January 3, 2017 (UTC)

3.2 Corrected tense
Would it make more sense to have the events in this article be discussed in past tense? The way it is now, some sections feel like someone is reading the story of the original trilogy out loud.

Additionally, are there plans to cleanup a few of the grammatical errors (mostly commas)? JRBaldauf (talk) 06:31, December 2, 2014 (UTC)
 * Feel free to correct any of these problems. The article was apparently edited a while back by someone with limited command of the English language and not all of the issues have been fixed yet. ProfessorTofty (talk) 08:52, December 2, 2014 (UTC)

Why has the page been moved to Darth Sidious?
Why on earth has "Sheev Palpatine" been moved to "Darth Sidious?" Palpatine is used more often than Sidious ever is, and it's his real name. Palpatine didn't ever even go by Sidious in public; it was always by "Palpatine," even during the Empire's reign where the galaxy knew him as "Emperor Palpatine." Cevan (talk) 22:00, January 28, 2015 (UTC)
 * Per Forum:CT Archive/Proposed amendment to the naming policy. ProfessorTofty (talk) 22:02, January 28, 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks Tofty; makes a bit more sense after reading over all the reasoning. Cevan (talk) 22:03, January 28, 2015 (UTC)
 * If "Sheev Palpatine" was changed to "Darth Sidious" because that's how he personally identifies himself, then shouldn't characters like "CT-5555" be changed to "Fives", or "C1-10P" to "Chopper"? 134.129.60.199 00:55, March 29, 2015 (UTC)
 * It goes beyond personal identification. Names like CT-5555 and C1-10P are their real names. For all intents and purposes, Darth Sidious is his real name in canon. Palpatine is just a public front. Same with most other Sith who have adopted Sith names. - Brandon Rhea (talk) 00:58, March 29, 2015 (UTC)
 * In that case shouldn't the Anakin Skywalker article be renamed to Darth Vader? If you don't count the redemption in the last few minutes of his life, he had a similar existence to every other Sith in the new canon material.  Dooku's article is named as such, despite the fact that he was also known as Darth Tyranus up until his head came off.  What should be the standard for the naming of canonical Sith, the names they were born with, or the names they received upon their induction as Sith Lords decades after the fact?68.97.76.212 00:52, May 20, 2015 (UTC)
 * Hey. This is laid out in our naming guidelines. The Anakin Skywalker page is named Anakin Skywalker because that's what his name was at the end of his life. After he was redeemed, Darth Vader was no more. The Dooku page is called Dooku because that's how he identified himself and that's what his most common name was. He was rarely ever called Darth Tyranus. For Darth Sidious, that's how he saw himself as, and canon has established that the name Palpatine is more of a public front. In thought and action (as StarWars.com eloquently put it), he is Darth Sidious. Hope that clears things up. - Brandon Rhea (talk) 01:27, May 20, 2015 (UTC)

Why are there 2 pages for the same guy?!
Why are there 2 pages?? There's one page called Palpatine and one called Darth Sidious.... They are the same people lol so why are they 2 separate pages? They should be merged, but they are move-protected... Why is this, Wookieepedia???? If there are 2 pages about Palpatine then there should be 2 pages for Anakin, one Anakin Skywalker, and one Darth Vader... The Darth names are just their Sith names. The Wookieepedia pages should be named after their REAL name, just like Anakin's Page is for example. Well if they insist on naming it Darth Sidious, at least they shouldn't be 2 pages about the same guy!! --ThriftShop (talk) 04:44, May 3, 2015 (UTC)
 * Palpatine is his Legends page. Darth Sidious is his Canon page. We've already established why this page is called Darth Sidious. - Brandon Rhea (talk) 04:52, May 3, 2015 (UTC)
 * The long and short of it is Palpatine is the page documenting the character's life in the films, The Clone Wars and the old Lucasfilm-published Expanded Universe where he was most often referred to as Palpatine. Darth Sidious is the page documenting the character's life in the films, The Clone Wars and the new Disney-published Expanded Universe where he hasn't really been called Palpatine since the Prequel Era. As the New EU is growing fast and promises to be basically incompatible with the old one it was decided to split effected pages between Legends and Canon subpages, this is one of the rare-so-far cases where it was decided to give each page a separate name. 120.144.170.253 04:58, May 3, 2015 (UTC)
 * Indeed. The new canon has established that, by Episode III, "Palpatine" is a public front. Darth Sidious is his true identity and true name. - Brandon Rhea (talk) 05:00, May 3, 2015 (UTC)

Canonical Comic Appearances
Darth Sidious is a prominent character in the new canonical Star Wars: Darth Vader comic series. Yet, the events of this series, which takes place after A New Hope, is not mentioned anywhere.

I ask that someone add this vital information.
 * Be bold, add it yourself. Also, please sign all of your post -  AV-6R7 User talk:AV-6R7 18:22, June 8, 2015 (UTC)

I not able to upload images, so I'm asking for another person to make the edit.

"Darth Sidious/Canon"
I know the Legends article is at Palpatine, but given that Darth Sidious is also a common-enough name for the old EU's version and Legends tend to occupy the "main" name by default, I can't help but feel having this as Darth Sidious rather than Darth Sidious/Canon is a bit inconsistent. It could also lead to some links intended for the Legends ending up here by mistake -- though to be clear that's just me guessing, I haven't done a real look yet. – The Millionth One (talk) (contribs) 22:10, August 5, 2015 (UTC)
 * I did a quick check: most of the links here are from Canon articles. Grats on the wiki's speediness/comprehensiveness, I have to say. – The Millionth One (talk) (contribs) 22:13, August 5, 2015 (UTC)

Name
Legends is "Palpatine", so why Canon is not "Sheev Palpatine"?
 * Because in canon, Lucasfilm has very deliberately said that, by the time of Episode III, Darth Sidious reflects Palpatine's true identity and the name Palpatine is simply a public front. - Brandon Rhea (talk) 15:21, August 19, 2015 (UTC)

Edit request
Could someone add Lando, Part I and Lando, Part II to his appearances, please? 121.220.22.140 10:06, August 22, 2015 (UTC)

Age of birth
Why is it saying that Darth Sidious was born 65 years before Yavin on the info box. Wasn't he born 84 years before Yavin--Senjuto 19:00, December 17, 2015 (UTC)
 * I think the 84 years is the non-canon date but Ian McDiarmid (palpatine's actor) said that palpatine is more than 100 years old....--DieKPie (talk) 15:49, December 19, 2015 (UTC)
 * It's 65 years before the establishment of the Empire, not the Battle of Yavin. Since the Empire was founded 19 years before Yavin, the number is accurate (65 + 19 = 84). --LelalMekha (talk) 17:25, December 19, 2015 (UTC)

In the new Canon we don't know who trained him.
On the Canon page it really shouldn't say that his master was Darth Plagueis. In the Disney continuity sources this is never stated (not even in Episode III). The same applies for the Canon page of Darth Plagueis as the only Disney continuity source for him is that short dialogue from Episode III. --201.127.212.39 08:34, December 23, 2015 (UTC)hortiz
 * In addition to Episode III, Sidious' master has been confirmed in the Star Wars.com Databank (image 1 caption) and novels such as Tarkin. Cwedin (talk) 08:43, December 23, 2015 (UTC)

Name
How is his name (Sheev) considered canonical? It came from a book, which is part of the Expanded Universe. Mmwa (talk) 22:17, January 9, 2016 (UTC)
 * I'm afraid you misunderstand the workings of current canon. Not all books belong to the Expanded Universe, but only those that were released prior to April 2014, when the EU was excluded of the canon. Novels such as Tarkin clearly belong to that post-April 2014 canon. --LelalMekha (talk) 22:25, January 9, 2016 (UTC)

3.2 Corrected tense
I realize I'm new, but please can someone correct grammar and tense issues, particularly around Episode III.

3.2 Corrected tense
I realize I'm new, but please can someone correct grammar and tense issues, particularly around Episode III. --/\\//\&#124;_&#124;\&#124; (talk) 16:40, February 22, 2016 (UTC)

Name...AGAIN!
From starwars.com

"The State Museum of His Grace, The Honorable Emperor Sheeve Palpatine" http://www.starwars.com/news/imagining-empire-day-on-coruscant

So it is a mistake/typo, or something else? Tweet P. Hidalgo or something.The Ultimate Dude (talk) 00:40, March 8, 2016 (UTC)
 * Just a typo. Brules (talk) 00:41, March 8, 2016 (UTC)
 * No need to tweet anyone. Definitely a typo. - Brandon Rhea (talk) 00:43, March 8, 2016 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I got official confirmation from Pablo Hidalgo himself. https://twitter.com/pablohidalgo/status/707020915217829888 The Ultimate Dude (talk) 04:39, March 8, 2016 (UTC)
 * What, why? You didn't really have to tweet the man. Props to you for getting a reply though. Brules (talk) 04:57, March 8, 2016 (UTC)

Rey's Vision
"30 years after the Battle of Endor, Rey heard Palpatine's voice during a vision she witnessed upon touching the lightsaber that previously belonged to Luke Skywalker, and his father before him." Is there a canonical source for this?  AnilSerifoglu  (talk) 16:22, March 22, 2016 (UTC)
 * I'd think that'd be The Force Awakens. -  AV-6R7  Crew Pit 19:04, March 22, 2016 (UTC)
 * I can't hear anything. Are you sure it's during the vision scene? Brules Jabba'sDesilijicClanTattoo-SWFF.jpg Chit Chat Page 19:16, March 22, 2016 (UTC)
 * All the official sources I have read mentions voices of Yoda, Obi-Wan and Luke only. TanDivoInsignia-SenateMurders.svg  AnilSerifoglu  (talk) 19:19, March 22, 2016 (UTC)
 * I can't even hear yoda. Brules Jabba'sDesilijicClanTattoo-SWFF.jpg Chit Chat Page 19:25, March 22, 2016 (UTC)
 * Yoda's definitely there (you can hear him speaking about the Force - "its energies surround us and bind us") but I've never heard Palpatine in it. - Brandon Rhea (talk) 19:28, March 22, 2016 (UTC)

Age
I just read the novel Tarkin but I didn't find any information about the fact that Palpatine was born 84 years before Yavin. Andre 00 (talk) 17:38, April 25, 2016 (UTC)

As Darth Sidious or as Palpatine?
In the Clone Wars (2008 CGI series) appearances, add him as Sidious or Palpatine. Like "episode X" (as hologram, as Sidious),... Except if Sidious was already identified as Palpatine from the begin to the new comers of the show (if that is true, leave a note on the first episode of the series). The new comers, meaning just watch the show for the first time, and the first thing to watch about Star Wars. Not us who saw all.

Marjorie Eaton in ESB
Two different women where filmed in the part of Palpatine for TESB. While it is well known that Elaine Baker was one of them, not many people know that there was another actress that played the part. She was Marjorie Eaton, a veteran character actress in her late 70s. In fact she was the actress who was actually cast in the part. Baker was only filmed for makeup tests and it is Eaton that appears in the final film according to Don Bies, Jim Bloom, Jon Berg and Rick Baker himself. The Making of book get that facts mixed up and states that Eaton filmed the tests while Baker appears in the film. But I have seemed to find enough proof that it is actually Eaton.

Here are some direct quotes from Jim Bloom http://boards.theforce.net/threads/marjorie-eaton-the-original-emperor.50033425/

While a forum might not be 100% reliable source, there is definite proof that Marjorie Eaton was at least filmed as the Emperor (according the Making of book). Whether it really is her in the final film or Baker, it might not be fully confirmed. But it's pretty likely that it is Eaton. It makes sense that she would be that actress that they used in the final film, as she was the seasoned character actress out of the two. It is understandable that Baker, was simply used for the makeup test, as she was not actually an actress and was doing it as a favor for her husband - Rick baker the makeup artist, (she also did this for him in the Exorcist). Also if you look at the Emperor compared to pictures of Eaton in her old age, it is plausible, whilst Baker, looks nothing like him. Eaton was in her late 70s which would fit the role of the Emperor much better, in comparison to Baker who was not even 40.

I think at the very least Marjorie Eaton should be mentioned in this article :)


 * Baker is already mentioned. As for Eaton, the forum can't be used as a source, but the Making Of book probably can (if you can remember the name of it). DarkKnight2149 04:49, October 24, 2016 (UTC)

Jidim Contributions 14:43, October 24, 2016 (UTC)
 * Here are the sources
 * The Making of Star Wars: The Empire Strikes Back (Enhanced Edition) (see here:https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=-U0PAAAAQBAJ&source=gbs_navlinks_s)
 * Marjorie's IMDb page mentions it (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0247856/)
 * She also mentioned on Wikipedia page for Palpatine (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palpatine)
 * IMDB and Wikipedia are not reliable sources either. However, I think the "Making Of" book will do. DarkKnight2149 17:33, October 24, 2016 (UTC)

Can someone with permission to edit this page PLEASE add Eaton. The facts stated in the article are incorrect. Rinzler's book mentions TWO actresses who filmed for the part (Eaton and Baker). Pablo Hidalgo himself has confirmed on twitter that it is not Baker but Eaton who appears in the final film. See here : https://twitter.com/pablohidalgo/status/791503521925304320?lang=en-gb and here: http://www.earwolf.com/episode/bonus-episode-the-empire-strikes-back-controversy-averted/ Jidim Contributions 19:28, November 11, 2016 (UTC)
 * There you go, I tried to cover it best I could. Thanks for the effort. -- Dr. Porter Resistance starbird.svg ( Talk | Contribs ) 01:32, November 12, 2016 (UTC)


 * Thank you. Now all seems accurate:) -- Jidim Contributions 10:38, November 12, 2016 (UTC)