Talk:Form IV/Legends

"Form IV: Ataru" seems redundant. Perhaps move this to "Ataru" and include that the two names are interchangeable in the lead. --SparqMan 03:32, 24 Jul 2005 (UTC)

Obi-Wan with Ataru vs. Anakin
I noticed that one of you - probably without any background knowledge - deleted the line which said Kenobi had switched back to Ataru in his final duel against Anakin. I doubt it, too, but I think that deleting without any evidence is unfair. We should have at least discussed it. Before you all pounce on me, let me tell you that it is not me who gave that line in and protest because MY line was deleted. You can make a search if you do not believe me, but you would only waste some hours whihc could be spent doing something more valuable from your life.

I have only seen Episode III once, but I remember that Obi-Wan used the Force in that duel much, compared to how much he uses the Force usually. But this does not mean he switched back to Ataru. It seemed to me he was on the defence until he found the higher ground. I read the novelization twice but do not remember if it is mentioned there that Ataru was used, but I did not find anything to prove it is not true (for example the novelization does not directly state that Obi-Wan used Soresu. This is my opinion on the matter. I do not revert edit, because TopAce, 15:31, 27 Oct 2005, (GMT +1)
 * a) I also disagree with it -> It is illogical that you face an opponent that is more powerful than you are (in theory) and you use a combat style you have not practiced for a decade.
 * b) I do not have any source which clearly states that Obi-Wan used Ataru
 * c) It is better to have an article which mentions nothing than one which mentions something unproven and thus disputable.

Obi Wan uses a variant of Ataru called Sokan in that duel.
 * TopAce, Obi-Wan still practiced Ataru! EP3 Visual Dictionary had said so, and EP3 Novel has Obi-Wan using Ataru to face Dooku! Plus Obi-Wan could possibly applied Sokan to cripple Vader in the last minute. And although Obi-Wan is The Master of Soresu, he could & should apply Ataru if the situation requires it - Vader's mastery of Djem So was the best, but he still applied Shien on Mustafar, which was confirmed by the novel. Darth Kevinmhk 16:31, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Please don't post in the middle of someone else's post. Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 19:01, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I dont think there is a source which exactly state that Obi-Wan applied Sokan on Mustafar. Darth Kevinmhk 02:04, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Perhaps the anon could provide us with one. Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 11:10, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Last paragraph
Count Dooku stated that he understood "every weakness of the Ataru form, with its ridiculous acrobatics". Dooku's Makashi would counter Ataru by launching a series of flashing thrusts toward the enemy's legs to draw the opponent into a flipping overhead leap, so that Dooku could burn through the enemy's spine from kidneys to shoulder blades with his Makashi attack. The Count applied this tactic against Obi-Wan Kenobi onboard Invisible Hand, who blocked Dooku's blows with Soresu.

Do you think it is necessary to note? I think it would be more appropriate in either the Makashi or the Soresu article. - TopAce 11:23, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree. Admiral J. Nebulax 21:27, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
 * My opinion is keeping the paragraph here. The paragraph focus on the so-called weakness of Ataru and how it can be countered. Soresu does not appear much in the paragraph, and the Makashi article is already focus on comparing Makashi and Djem So, so I suggest Makashi & Ataru comparison can be placed here. Darth Kevinmhk 04:00, 27 March 2006 (UTC)


 * i agree

Behind the Scenes: Cin Drallig?
From the description of both Ataru and other forms, it doesn't seem to me that Cin Drallig (in the game, you can actually tell) uses Ataru. I'd think that Serra Keto does, because she's very acrobatic, but Cin Drallig doesn't really display an acrobatic techniques. It seems to me that he's using Juyo, because he's using staccato movements, but they're not dark like Vaapad. I think that the comment should be removed since it's speculation and seems unlikely. --Swali 23:04, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
 * While I agree it should be removed, it's a game. They probably really didn't give much thought to the forms of lightsaber combat. Admiral J. Nebulax 00:58, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I once read it - here - that Cin Drallig was a Makashi user. What has become of that line? He was known to be a good swordsman, one who taught a lot of Padawans how to wield a saber effectively. I don't think Ataru is an ideal choice for that. - TopAce 17:02, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Just remove it, then. Admiral J. Nebulax 20:19, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Palpatine using Ataru?
What's the source on Palpatine using Ataru? Furthermore, why--then--is there a conflict with the Djem So article that seems to say, for some reason, that Palpatine and Windu used Djem So in their duel? I'm more concerned about the sources--really--because I hope it's not visual intrepretation, which isn't valid for evidence. Even if it was, I would dispute that he uses Ataru anyway: his moves are far to abrupt and serpentine. --GrandAdmiralJello 20:48, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, Windu used Vaapad in the duel, not Djem So, so that's one wrong thing. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 21:48, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Hideously wrong, yes. So it really raises the question: are people simply guessing what forms are being used by visuals? Let's hope not. --GrandAdmiralJello 05:31, 13 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Palpatine used a mix of various forms... I remember reading it in the RotS novelization. I don't have it on me right now, though.. --Danik Kreldin 05:33, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I'll take you word for it. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 20:35, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
 * In the novelization, it describes Palpatine using Ataru - he's extremely agile, almost a blur, moving all around. Which is pretty much Ataru. Then I read somewhere he mixed some Juyo/Vaapad into it, though that may have just been on Wookieepedia. --Danik Kreldin 20:40, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Thank you for confirming the Ataru part. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 20:52, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Just wanna point out that no solid word was ever said about Sidious' actually style. Star Wars fans just observe and think it out - They observe Sidious' style in the Senate looks quite like Yoda, and the novel described Sidious moving like a blur. Fans thought Sidious used Form VII because he is Maul's master, and he applied some concept of Form VII during the lightning struggle with Mace. However, I wanna point out that Insider 62 said Form VII itself applied "very advanced Force-assisted jumps and movements", so it is possible that Sidious blur effect was from Form VII, not Form IV. Darth Kevinmhk 16:25, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, Danik Kreldin said that Palpatine used a mix of forms, anyway. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 20:01, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Nope, the novel didnt mention that, I'm sure. It looked like what Nick Gillard described in an interview... I will quote a source later to continue the discussion. Darth Kevinmhk 04:15, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Thank you. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 13:13, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Darth Kevinmhk 10:54, 27 March 2006 (UTC) Got it. From theforce.net -> EP3 -> Just the Facts -> Palpatine section. But I doubt he was actually refering to the seven forms, because the crew does not consider c-canon when designing stage fighting. Anyway, Nick Gillard said these:
 * Pertaining to whether Sidious is right-handed or left-handed with a lightsaber, he's ambidextrous. He's just that good.
 * Sidious' abilities are beyond anything we've experienced.
 * It took a really long time for Nick (Gillard) to work out Sidious' fighting style, and he has a style that's constantly changing. His style is one in which you'll never get the better of him. It is ambiguous --- he'll fight less than you and draw you in; you're a sucker if you think you're going to better him.
 * Sidious is a master of every weapon and every style.
 * Still, "every style" could still mean all of the seven forms. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 20:36, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
 * So we should put Palpatine's name in all 7 articles? Darth Kevinmhk 02:31, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
 * When being asked whether Mace used Vaapad in EP3, Rick said "No, he did what Nick taught him."; Nick's Level 1-10 system is completely different from the already existed seven forms.. so i consider the crew doesnt care the setting of 7forms. Darth Kevinmhk 14:30, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Responding to your question: It's worth a small mention, I suppose. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 21:20, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

I don't know for sure if the Lighsaber Guide of the Dark Jedi Brotherhood is a canonical source or not. In that the writer(s)' theory is that Palpatine's style could be the long-forgotten style known as Lus-ma. He does not state it firmly, it is written that they are 'searching for evidence and more details.' One thing is stated though: that Palpatine's style was extremely demanding. Even this particular article says that he combined stabs and thrust into his attacks, so it was not a 'clear' Ataru. Of course we don't even know for sure what the 'clear' Ataru was like, although the pdf document gives a detailed list of manouvres and movements for each style, and in Ataru's list there's clearly no stabbing. If the source is not canon, then cancel this last sentence (it's likely because the movements are definitely listed for the players of the role-playing community which has created the guide). Anyway, I like the idea of Palpatine using a style that was forgotten - or erased from lightsaber training - by the Jedi, because it would definitely give him advantage should he get into a situation where he has to defend himself with lightsaber. I rather disagree with Palpatine using Form VII, because in my opinion it was unlikely that he could devote himself to the intensive training required by this form, nor the mentioned state of mind (see article about Form VII), because he was known as a cool-headed and counting person, looking to exploit others' weaknesses, not giving himself entirely over to the heat of combat. A surprising and unusual style I think would better suit him. (This is only personal opinion). --Domlith 22:19, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
 * That's not canon. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 00:52, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I must admit that the guide looks good, but it is non canon. Darth Kevinmhk 03:06, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Big difference between looking good and being good. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 11:20, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
 * yer agreed, it looks nice but i read the first few lines and already its wrong, "Form II is a easy form to learn" erm, since when| anyway back on topic did Palps use Ataru then? whats decided? Jedi Dude
 * In very, very strick sense, there is no line in any source which directly state that Palpatine used Ataru. (And, in the same sense, no source stating he used Form VII too) Darth Kevinmhk 11:27, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
 * However, if he happened to use moves common to a certain form in the film, it would be canon, as long as we could distinguish the moves and what form they belong to. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 19:36, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

I got conflicting views about this myself. Base on the novelization, i guess that his form is more in keeping with the principles of Form IV. But the scenes in the movie suggests that Form VII may be used instead of Form IV. His lightsaber fight scenes are pretty erratic & do not have the flow that's usually associated with Form IV (like Yoda). However, this could be due impractical application of Form IV in reality. The main problem about lightsaber scenes in movies is that not all of them corresponds to the description in official sources, thus making it difficult to guess the Form, especially Forms IV and VII -naz-

Image

 * Is it just me, or does the second third image not display very well? I can't see a thing. Perhaps if we zoomed in on it? Atarumaster88  [[Image:Jedi_Order.jpg|20px]] ( Audience Chamber ) 03:07, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Which one? The second one seems to be Yoda on a saber thrown clone? That looks good to me. The Yoda vs Sidious one may really zoom too far away, though. Darth Kevinmhk 14:42, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Yoda vs. Sidious. I can barely tell who's even there. Atarumaster88  [[Image:Jedi_Order.jpg|20px]] ( Audience Chamber ) 14:46, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Oooh, pretty. Atarumaster88  [[Image:Jedi_Order.jpg|20px]] ( Audience Chamber ) 14:58, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Whats the Point?
Why was Ataru developed? What was it made to counter. As far as I can tell, it may have an effective attack, but its defense is compromised and the acrobatics are taxing. Based on these inferenses, it seems to be an ineffective style. Anyone agree or disagree? user:Darth Vatrir


 * Naturally, I disagree. It's sheer speed allow it to finish a fight quickly. Also, its defense is largely comprised of its acrobatics- i.e. you can't hit me if I'm moving too fast, preventing for example, a Form V user from pinning the Ataru practitioner in one place then overloading them with sheer power. It also allows users with a smaller reach- such as Yoda or even smaller humans with less reach- to get in and out of an opponent's larger reach. Against a single opponent, the multiple dimensions of attack can overload an opponent's defense. Against non-Force users, Ataru is effective because almost all "normal" people can't compensate for the enhanced speed. Ataru becomes more effective with powerful Force users, such as Yoda or Palpatine, Quinlan Vos and Aayla Secura (all Form IV practitioners) who can use the acrobatics to their advantage. As a matter of fact, this form or Form VII itself was used by all known lightsaber combatants who defeated a Form VII practitioner (using canonical Jedi Exile of course)- examples: Yoda was better than Mace; Quinlan Vos defeated Sora Bulq; and during TPM Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon both used Ataru vs. Darth Maul. Case rested. Atarumaster88  [[Image:Jedi_Order.jpg|20px]] ( Audience Chamber ) 03:57, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Not yet. Darth Maul took out Qui-Gon who mastered Ataru. The only reason that Obi-Wan won was because he surprised Maul with his huge jump out of the pit. Before that, Maul gained the upper hand. user:Darth Vatrir
 * To add, infact most of the Ataru practitioners are now dead, and not all from Order 66. user:Darth Vatrir
 * Qui-Gon was OLD and was in confined quarters, which I admit are not the best for Ataru. And Darth Maul was an arrogant son-of-a-Selkath. The point still stands- Ataru and Vaapad are the only forms used by people who defeated Form VII practitioners and Ataru was used by two of the greatest saber combatants ever- Yoda and Palpatine. Even practitioners of other forms- including III and V- i.e. Luke, Anakin, and Obi-Wan used elements of Ataru. Counterpoint: Lightsaber forms pretty much died out after Order 66 as far as we know. Although the fast style incorporates elements of Ataru and Soresu. Let's not forget that both Yoda and Quinlan- FIV users- presumably died a natural death. Atarumaster88  [[Image:Jedi_Order.jpg|20px]] ( Audience Chamber ) 18:39, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Ataru seems to only be effective if mastered. Also, it practically demands that the user remain on the offensive, keeping a fast attack. The moment an Ataru practitioner is forced onto the defensive, he seems to be screwed. user:Darth Vatrir
 * I can somewhat agree with your second statement. The first statement is considered true for any form, though that should be obvious. Being put on the defensive is not the idea in Ataru. If you want impenetrable defense, go learn Soresu. If you want to go through your opponents very quickly leaving pieces of them scattered around, use Ataru. Atarumaster88  [[Image:Jedi_Order.jpg|20px]] ( Audience Chamber ) 18:52, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
 * But still, Ataru seems to be easily countered. Simply stay on the defensive while their acrobatics take their toll, then counter-attack when they tire. Ataru is ineffective against calculating opponents (unless your Yoda, whose jumping around and twirling like the friken Tasmanian Devil. [I wish he displayed that bladework in ROTS]). user:Darth Vatrir
 * Look, I've answered your question with counterpoints and actual examples, which you've failed to provide in defense of your position- which basically seems to just detract from the form. Additionally, this topic doesn't serve much purpose to the wiki and won't alter the article at all if I have any say about it. I've humored you so far, but if you want to continue this, I suggest you take it elsewhere where this can be properly appreciated for what it is. Atarumaster88  [[Image:Jedi_Order.jpg|20px]] ( Audience Chamber ) 02:00, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
 * OK, I give. user:Darth Vatrir

Actually, I don't. Here is my revision of my argument. I can accept that Ataru is effective against regular people with blasters, but against other Forceusers, it seems to have a really bad reputation. Qui-Gon used Ataru against Maul and lost, but as you mentioned, he was old tired and in a restricted space. Obi-Wan used Ataru against Maul and lost, but as far as I could tell, he had plenty of space for his acrobatics, he was young and still had energy to spare. Again, he used it against Darth Tyranus, and lost. He was still relatively young and energetic, and had plenty of space. When Anakin started fighting Tyranus, he used the Ataru application of Jar'Kia and it was next to useless. In fact, the only two people I saw use Ataru effectively were Palpatine and Yoda. user:Darth Vatrir
 * One more thing, how did Ataru become so popular amongst Jedi. Ataru practically demands that you remain on the offensive, but the Jedi emphasize the defensive. user:Darth Vatrir
 * Look, I've already told you this is practically pointless. Obi-Wan vs. Maul did not have much acrobatic space, he was obvious less skilled than Maul- largely due to the Jedi Order's neglect of lightsaber vs. lightsaber dueling, which was their own stupid fault. Why do you think Agen Kolar, Saesee Tiin, and Kit Fisto got pawned by Palps so quickly despite being vaunted Jedi Masters? Tyranus was a kriffing battlemaster and Obi-Wan was partially using Ataru and partially Soresu at the time. And Anakin- same story as young Obi-Wan, and Tyranus was still a battlemaster. And obviously you've never heard of Oppo Rancisis, Quinlan Vos, and Aayla Secura. As for why it was popular- I don't know, but I can reasonably presume that it had to do with it using the Force-assisted speed of the Jedi to its maximum potential. This is the last time I am posting here. There is honestly no point to this and I am tired of this irrelevant debate. It doesn't matter how you feel about Ataru- at least not on this site- so move on with life. Atarumaster88  [[Image:Jedi_Order.jpg|20px]] ( Audience Chamber ) 00:40, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Actually, I have heard of all those people, but I'm trying to keep this within the movies. The EU is too large and complicated to even attempt to tackle on one topic. And my argument stands. The winning Ataru pratitioners (other than Yoda) only won because they used it in conjunction with another style. Ataru on its own against another Forceuser, unless you have reached Yoda's level of mastery, is almost useless. user:Darth Vatrir
 * You make the mistake of being a "movie purist" by disregarding the EU. Regardless of the status of your argument, this discussion is over- largely due to the fact that it has no relevance to this site. "Move along, move along." Atarumaster88  [[Image:Jedi_Order.jpg|20px]] ( Audience Chamber ) 00:52, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm not a movie purist, I'm just disregarding the EU in this particular argument because there is too much for me to cover. If I tried, I'd be combing through it for ages. I'm also one of those people who never give up and must always have the last word. You can beat me down, but I'll still come back for more! user:Darth Vatrir

Needs Quote

 * Is there a good quote for this? Maybe Yoda as a whirlwind of destruction, or whatever they say in KotOR II? Same for the other forms that don't have quotes. Atarumaster88  [[Image:Jedi_Order.jpg|20px]] ( Audience Chamber ) 03:53, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Greatest Practioners
These lists are crap and need to go! No canon source for any claims. They are fanon and will be deleted.


 * I partially reverted your changes- I agree that the term "greatest" is speculation, aside from Yoda. However, I think having a list of notable practitioners is a good idea, so I have modified the lists to reflect that. Also, thank you for removing that ilk about Obi-Wan's knowledge of Ataru. Atarumaster88  [[Image:Jedi_Order.jpg|20px]] ( Audience Chamber ) 23:32, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Actually Sidious would be the best but he sees to be very disieving in his form, leads you into a trap, and then defeats you.
 * Unfortunately, we do not have exact canonical proof of what form Sidious uses. We have reasonable certainty that he used Ataru based on his motion, but he could have been incorporating other forms- we just don't know beyond a shadow of a doubt. Atarumaster88  [[Image:Jedi_Order.jpg|20px]] ( Audience Chamber ) 02:01, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

I concur with Atarumaster88, Sidious' form is hard to determine. I've contributed my opinion in this matter under section no. 4. -naz-

Semi-Protection

 * This article is semi-protected by order of Atarumaster88  [[Image:Jedi_Order.jpg|20px]] ( Audience Chamber ) due to repeated fanon, vandalism, and POV. Regardless of your status, do not add such to Wookieepedia, because it will be noticed, and you will be banned. Complaints may be directed to my talk page.  Atarumaster88  [[Image:Jedi_Order.jpg|20px]] ( Audience Chamber ) 23:48, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Unprotected earlier today. Atarumaster88  [[Image:Jedi_Order.jpg|20px]] ( Audience Chamber ) 05:18, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Ataru strikes lesson in Dagobah

 * Ok, just a little thought. It might seem that Ataru died along with Yoda, but there are other people teaching Ataru in the New Order aka Fast Form. However I think Yoda did teach Luke some Ataru swordplay. Although it did not really happen in the film (Ep. V - TESB), but happened in the comic version. In one of Luke's training, Yoda told Luke to slash seven pieces off from one long metal bar. At first Luke would definitely miss the entire metal bar. He then later was able to slice seven pieces of metal. Does this count as one of the trainings, although it is confirm that Luke is more of a Djem So practitioner. User:CrudeSword 01:11, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Maybe, but it could be from Shii-Cho, as Yoda taught that to younglings, so I don't know. Grunny (Talk) 09:15, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Speculation like that should not be placed here. We can say "Fast form has some similarities to Ataru" but we can't say much else. I'm familiar with that bit of training, but Yoda says "If you were a Jedi, that bar would be in seven pieces." Not, if you were an Ataru practitioner, that bar would be in 7 pieces. So, there's nothing to add. Atarumaster88  [[Image:Jedi_Order.jpg|20px]] ( Audience Chamber ) 15:43, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Ok Atarumaster88 User:CrudeSword 12:17, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Featured article status
Now, I'm not questioning why this article was nominated, but I am curious as to why none of the articles for other forms were. I don't really see what the differences are. Jwebb13 HoloNet 02:49, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Uh, because for some strange reason, I care more about this form than the others. And that meant that I restructured the article- you'll note that the other articles aren't structured this way. I re-formatted the images, removed speculation, made the intro longer, started sourcing it, and added quotes. If you want to do the same thing to the others, that's fine with me. Atarumaster88  [[Image:Jedi_Order.jpg|20px]] ( Audience Chamber ) 04:04, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Okay, an informed second look cleared things up. Now I just have to get my ass in gear for Form V.  Jwebb13 HoloNet[[Image:oldsith.jpg|40px]] 04:53, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I removed the last bit of speculation, so its ready to be featured! -Derek Yoda&#39;s friend 23:37, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Do you really think in the Practicioners article there should be two things for Anakin and Darth Vader, just asking. Derek Yoda&#39;s friend 04:46, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Not in the gallery, but in the main body, there should be, because they had two completely different styles. Atarumaster88  [[Image:Jedi_Order.jpg|20px]] ( Audience Chamber ) 04:53, 28 February 2007 (UTC)