Talk:Dark Jedi/Legends

Did Mara Jade every actually become a full Dark Jedi? I didn't get that impression from reading the Thrawn trilogy. JimRaynor55 20:04, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * if she was a Jedi that left the Jedi Order after falling to the Dark Side, then yes. --Imperialles 20:06, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * But she wasn't; she was trained as a child by Palpatine.Kuralyov 15:11, 15 Jul 2005 (UTC)
 * And she wasn't truly dark, either; Palpatine, as an experiment, kept her from being a full Darksider (as seen in the beginning of Mara Jade: By The Emperor's Hand). jSarek 23:53, 15 Jul 2005 (UTC)

I think this list is for Dark Jedi only, contrasted to those who were SITH Dark Jedi like Vader. If so, Vendress should not be here, becase she claims to be a sith. 62.74.5.101 13:12, 15 Jul 2005 (UTC)
 * But Dooku proved her wrong. – Aidje talk 14:39, 15 Jul 2005 (UTC)

Dark Jedi vs. Sith?
What's the difference between a dark Jedi and a Sith? What are examples of one versus the other?
 * While Dark Jedi were Jedi who fell to the Dark Side, Sith were those who followed the teachings of the Sith order. Joruus C'baoth was a Dark Jedi, Darth Maul was Sith, Dooku was both. &mdash; Silly Dan
 * So does that mean that Darth Vader was also both? i've read something in the article page of this article implying that he was. come to think of it, i see something else that does above- i just noticed that. Gringo300 03:45, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Dooku saw that Anakin Skywalker was already half-Sith on the Invisible Hand. Given that Ani was not yet Sith Lord Darth Vader by then, it looks justify to say that Ani/Vader is also a Dark Jedi. Darth Kevinmhk 03:58, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Alright, a Dark Jedi doesnt mean he / she is a Sith. But when a Jedi become a Sith, does he/she by definition become a Dark Jedi as well? Darth Kevinmhk 10:35, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Sith and Dark Jedi are not mutually exclusive groups. All Jedi/Padawans who fell to the dark side are Dark Jedi whether or not they joined the Sith. The Sith are, afterall, just an ancient sect of Dark Jedi. Therefore, every fallen Jedi from Revan to Count Dooku should be considered Dark even if they later joined the Sith Jedi...--Sentry 03:16, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I disagree. The first group of Sith Lords were Dark Jedi, but after that many Sith are just Sith, never a Jedi. I don't think those should be considered as Dark Jedi. Like Palpatine, he is just a Sith, never a Dark Jedi, because he has nothing to do with Jedi. Darth Kevinmhk 03:41, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I never said all Sith were Dark Jedi. Only Sith that have been trained by the Jedi and converted are Dark Jedi. I was simply trying to clarify the fact that Dark Jedi can also be Sith and vice versa. Not all Sith (or dark side adepts for that matter) are Dark Jedi nor are all Dark Jedi Sith. --Sentry 03:54, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Dooku
Why is Dooku here? According to LOE, he was already recruited into the Sith before he even left the Jedi. Although granted the whole Dooku/Maul/Sifo-Dyas/Clone army timeline seems really difficult to work out. Kuralyov 04:23, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Dooku secretly studied the Sith Holocron in the Jedi Temple when he was very young. Darth Kevinmhk 04:25, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I review the Dooku article once more, and admit Dooku is a debatable case. I am open to suggestions. Darth Kevinmhk 04:26, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Dooku was never a dark Jedi. He went directly to being Sith. Many Jedi studied Sith holocrons; saying that he was secretly a dark Jedi for decades before the left the order is ridiculous. Likewise, LOE flat-out states that he joined the Sith just before he left the Order. Kuralyov 04:12, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
 * "Many Jedi studied Sith holocrons" -- May you quote names & source? What business did Dooku have with Sith Holocron if not for studying their teaching? Quote ep3 novel: "This was the real power of the dark side, the power he had suspected even as a boy, had sought through his long life until Darth Sidious had shown him that it had been his all along." For Dooku's whole life, he was always studying the dark side and seeking dark side mastery. Darth Kevinmhk 05:11, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Revan, Malak, Kreia & Sion

 * Let's discuss whether the above four are Dark Jedi... I am really open to suggestions this time. I cannot reach a solid conclusion after reviewing their articles. Darth Kevinmhk 04:32, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
 * They are Sith. - TopAce 16:18, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I know, but before they officially declare themselves as Sith, did they already fell and became DJ ? Darth Kevinmhk 16:20, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
 * All the Sith have to somehow prove themselves worthy of being a Sith apprentice. Even Malak, Palpatine, or Maul had to do that. Self-proclaimed Sith Lords such as Revan also have to start simply as Dark Jedi instead of directly becoming a Sith Lord. I think those who eventually became Sith Lords should not be in the article. - TopAce 16:24, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
 * My opinion is Palpatine is not a Dark Jedi, because he never was a Jedi to begin with. Dooku indeed started his dark journey at an quite early age, accessing Temple Sith Holocron to begin his fall, so i think even though Dooku became a Sith, he deserve the DJ title. Anakin constantly call upon anger & other dark side feelings (proved by Labyrinth of Evil) to boost his power throughout the whole Clone Wars, and Dooku noted that Ani was a half-Sith, so I guess more or less Ani was a DJ too. A DJ more or less is related to a Jedi. Back at Revan Malak Kreia Sion, I cannot quite decide because their fall were pretty much keep in secret - they vanish, and they come back as Sith. Darth Kevinmhk 16:31, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Ok, Palpatine was not the best example, but I still think that those who ever achieved the title of Sith Lord should not be on the list. - TopAce 16:33, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Umm.. maybe open a new section which only mention DJ who eventually become a Sith? Darth Kevinmhk 16:37, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
 * That is good. At least it makes a distinction - TopAce 16:39, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Done. Darth Kevinmhk 17:46, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Revan, Malak, Kreia & Sion were never Dark Jedi. Revan and Malak became Sith by studying the Trayus Academy and defeating the Sith Lords they found on Korriban. Kreia was a Sith acolyte and Sion was a Sith apprentice. Kuralyov 04:10, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Sith-only and Dark Jedi techniques
As we have probably all noticed, in almost every LucasArts game, as a Dark Jedi, we can use all kinds of dark powers, some which are G-canonically restricted to the Sith, such as Force lightning. I am thinking of making a new paragraph about Dark Jedi techniques in comparison with Sith ones. Considering the Jedi Knight series and both Knights of the Old Republic fully canon, what can be said is that there is no difference between Sith and Dark Jedi techniques. Any suggestions? - TopAce 16:29, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
 * The Ultimate Visual Guide further confuse the stuff. According to the Guide, Dooku & Sidious used Sith lightning. And Sidious learn this skill from ancient Sith ghosts that he summoned!!!! So the guide seems to imply that Sith lightning and Force lightning are 2 different things. Darth Kevinmhk 16:33, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Confusing, do you think it should be mentioned in the article? - TopAce 16:34, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Maybe discuss on Force lightning's talk page first. If we can reach a conclusion for this typical example, i guess we can settle everything else. Darth Kevinmhk 16:36, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Quinlan Vos

 * how about Vos? He acted like crazy when lost his memory, and even applied Force lightning. He often call upon anger and strike in cold blood. Hot temper, forbidden relationship, etc (much like Ani) But of course he was ultimately redeemed when fighting Sora. Darth Kevinmhk 17:49, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Notable sections
Does anyone else think that the two notable sections are not necessary in this article? Those lists could easily grow immensely long, yet, as far as navigation goes, they aren't terribly useful. I mean, what is the criteria for choosing which characters are notable in this particular circumstance? Perhaps just a few names should be mentioned within the article as examples of what is and is not a Dark Jedi...--Sentry 04:17, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
 * That's a good point, in my opinion. I think it would be better to incorporate all of those names into a narrated historical section, perhaps further subdivided into the different eras. In other words, perhaps something like a section entitled History of Dark Jedi, with subsections like Dark Jedi in the Old Republic Era, Dark Jedi in the Rise of the Empire Era, and so forth. Comments? Jaywin 04:09, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Thats an idea. The only problem is that the Dark Jedi are such a scattered and divided bunch that such a history would likely be quite chaotic, but then again, it might be the best solution...--Sentry 05:43, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
 * First, Dark Jedi did not have that many member... I guess just like Order 66 confirmed survivors & victims, we dont have much difficulty to list them all out. Second for history, as noted in the article already, Dark Jedi mostly went as indiviuals instead of an organisation. I suggest we split sections and write short intro and link those sections to main articles like Dark Side Elite, Xendor's Cult etc. Darth Kevinmhk 06:48, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Definition of Dark Jedi

 * I disagree with the opening definition of Dark Jedi. It seems to me that it is a necessary condition that an individual has to have been previously a Jedi or in the process of being trained as a Jedi in order to be a Dark Jedi. The Jedi are a specific Force organization amongst many Force organizations in the Star Wars universe, with a tradition that was established on Tython by the followers of Ashla after the end of the Force Wars. The Sith are a specific force organization with their own Dark Side traditions. The Aing-Tii Monks are a specific force organization that doesn't believe in a Light Side or a Dark Side but instead see the Force more like a rainbow. And so on...Thus, I would say that the definition of a Dark Jedi would simply be "a Jedi or someone who was in the process of being trained in the Jedi tradition who fell to the Dark Side of the Force"...nothing more, nothing less. Jaywin 02:04, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Yup, just as I argued above. The more open interpretation (dark side user = Dark Jedi), seems to be a remnant of poor word usage in numerous sources. I think the reason why relatively few people are working on this 'Improvement Drive' article is just this issue. Too many people are not sure what the authoratative definition of a 'Dark Jedi' is. As such, before going forward, I think we had best work out what the that definition should be. I would suggest that people paste different versions of the article intro here on the talk page, then we can have a meaningful discussion on the topic...--Sentry 05:43, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
 * As i always propose, Dark Jedi should relate to Jedi - either he/she was a former Jedi Padawan/Knight/Master, or he/she was trained by another Dark Jedi/Sith. If Dark Jedi = Dark side users, then those Prophets, Nightsisters, Kar Vastor & his elites would all be Dark Jedi, and I am pretty sure that they are not Dark Jedi. Further more, under my proposal Palpatine is a Sith and not a Dark Jedi, because he has no relationship with Jedi. Darth Kevinmhk 06:44, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
 * The definition of Dark Jedi, as given by Leland Chee here: "A dark Jedi is anyone who practices the dark side of the Force whether or not they were a former Jedi." jSarek 07:52, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Bingo! Thats what we needed ;)--Sentry 09:30, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I went to the link where you say that Leland Chee defined Dark Jedi, but I didn't see it. Was it on the first page? Also, with that definition, Darth Sidious and Darth Maul would be Dark Jedi, and that doesn't seem quite right. Jaywin 13:03, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
 * But this is too wide, isnt it? Then even Queen Amanoa, King Ommin, every Nightsisters and every Sith become a Dark Jedi - which doesnt feel right at all. Darth Kevinmhk 15:27, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Pictures at the gallery

 * There's some pictures a the Gallery of Dark Jedi that could be used on this page, though I wouldn't agree that they're all Dark Jedi. Jaywin 02:12, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Anakin Skywalker

 * Well, in EP3 Novel, Dooku said Ani was already half-Sith without knowing it; in Labyrinth of Evil, Ani told the reader that he actively and constantly call upon his suffering and other history & emotion to boost his power; in EP2 & EP3, he slaughter diferent beings in cold blood... Ani didnt start the dark path when Palpatine grant him Sith rank - he began his Dark Path long ago! Darth Kevinmhk 02:33, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm not quite sure what your point is here, nor do I understand the relevance of your statement to this article. Are you suggesting that Anakin was a Dark Jedi? Are you suggesting that the Sith are Dark Jedi? Are you trying to give a counter- example to the definition of a Dark Jedi that I proposed above? Am I missing your point completely? If you could clarify a bit, that would be great. Thanks. Jaywin 03:58, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I am suggesting Anakin Skywalker is both a Dark Jedi and a Sith, Anakin Skywalker's fall to the dark side did not begin in pledging himself to Palpatine after Mace's death, his fall to the dark side began long ago "He was half Sith already, and he didn't even know it. This boy had the gift of fury."; so as Dooku, who studied Sith holocron before contacted by Sidious. And yes, to the definition of Dark Jedi, I propose Dark Jedi must have something relate to the Jedi in the first place: either he/she was for some time a Jedi, or he/she was trained by a Dark Jedi in Dark Jedi way or by a Sith in Dark Jedi way. Otherwise, if Dark Jedi was merely guys who follow the dark side, then even Nightsisters and Queen Amanoa are Dark Jedi, but they are not. For example Palpatine, he is just a Sith only, not a Dark Jedi, because he has nothing relate to the Jedi. Darth Kevinmhk 05:03, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
 * OK, thanks for clearing that up. I guess I would say that in my mind, I wouldn't call Anakin a Dark Jedi. When I think of a Dark Jedi, I think of a Jedi who fell to the Dark Side without belonging to any other dark side organization to identify with. In other words, if Anakin fell to the Dark Side and fully embraced it for a period of time before he became a Sith, then I would say he was a Dark Jedi for awhile. Anakin "slipped" many times before his final fall, but he didn't reject the Jedi tradition and fully embrace the Dark Side...a part of him still recognized that he was acting improperly. He didn't fully embrace the dark side until he joined the Sith. Either way, it's a tricky issue. I think the key word that I used was identity, which in and of itself is a rather murky philosophical issue in general. Jaywin 13:14, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I disagree with "without belonging to any other organization", as we are pretty sure that Dark Jedi occasionally team up as organization like Dark Side Elite, Disciple of Ragnos, etc. For Anakin, well, personally i dont think Anakin has ever truly accept or understand Jedi tradition/teachings. Ep3 novel, in Obi-Wan's words: "Despite all I have tried to teach him about the sacrifices that are the heart of being a Jedi he - he will never, I think, truly understand. ...Any Jedi, except Anakin. I think that abstractions like peace don't mean much to him..." In Palpatine vs Ani in Opera house: "Or so you've been trained to believe. I hear the voice of Obi-Wan Kenobi in your answers, Anakin. What do you really think?" Anakin suddenly found the ballet a great deal more interesting than Palpatine's face. So in my opinion, Anakin never truly understand or embrace the Jedi teachings / way in the first place. Darth Kevinmhk 15:26, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Those are some good points. However, I think the issue comes back to the concept of identity. Were those Dark Jedi who "teamed up" with certain Dark Side organizations actually members of, (i.e., identify with), those organizations, or were these just temporary alliances with common interests? With Anakin, he identified himself, (and others did as well), as a Jedi, even if he did have problems with certain aspects of the Jedi, (and for that matter, other Jedi considered him somewhat of a problem case, as well!) Perhaps something that would help with this issue on this page would be . I guess I would see Dark Jedi as Dark Side practitioners who were trained as Jedi and who are not identified as members of a particular formal institution during any specified period of time...former Jedi / Dark Side practitioners without an official home, so to speak! No doubt about it, though, this is a rather tricky issue! Jaywin 16:13, 17 May 2006 (UTC)