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Spelling
I know that this is frequently an area of debate on Wikipedia (where I would agree that it was a bad idea), but I'm willing to risk bringing it up here: would it be a good idea for us to standard(ise/ize) on American spelling? I know that there are people out there who would rather use British spellings, but, in reading Wikipedia:Wikipedia:Manual of Style, I have noticed that, in the section titled National varieties of English, it gives the example of an article concerning Tolkien's Lord of the Rings and states that such an article should be written using British spelling and style. It seems to me that, following that rule, any Star Wars article on Wikipedia would use American spelling and style, and that Wookieepedia should therefore standardize on American spelling. Thoughts? (By the way, in the event that anyone should attack me as an ignorant and arrogant American who cares nothing about others' culture(s), please know that I spent many of my formative years (the ones where I was learning to read and write) in Southeast Asia, where the predominant form of English is British English&mdash;as a result, I often prefer British spellings myself, so I'm not entirely biased towards the U.S. in this matter; I simply think that uniformity is good. I'm sure that no one on this wiki would resort to personal attacks, though, right? (-:) Uh, all of that aside, any thoughts? -- Aidje 00:07, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Not to be US-centric or anything, but if Star Wars originated in the United States, then the Wiki should follow the American format. -- Riffsyphon1024 00:10, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
 * One could make the argument (as Robert Brown did) that looking at the scripts and production designs, the word "lightsaber" is spelled using the British form, "sabre", rather than the American "saber", and as such should be the way it is spelled in all cases. However, I think the best way to go, at least in this regard, is the most common spelling in official materials, and since probably 99% of the Star Wars novels, reference books, video games, etc. are all made using American English, then it is probably best to standardize on that. In my own writings (off Wookieepedia) I'll still spell it "lightsabre", if only b/c I think it looks better, and in the end, that's the only reason words are spelled the way they are, it looks better that way.--Eion 00:44, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

This issue will be decided by consensus, so if they are more people happy with the US spelling, the way it looks in 99% of merchandise, then that is how we go. -- Riffsyphon1024 00:48, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
 * I'm certainly not US-centric (having lived my entire life in Canada), but I agree that US English should be the standard. However, Commonwealth/British/Canadian spellings for article titles, like lightsabre, should definitely be kept as redirects. Silly Dan 00:38, 3 May 2005 (UTC)


 * There is some post-structral debate over the reason words are spelled the way they are. But I agree.  US spellings all around.  --Kosure 00:50, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Wow. No flames! Cool. And everyone (so far) seems to agree, as well. I certainly feel better about bringing this up now that I see people's responses. I was afraid I might offend someone. -- Aidje 01:07, 3 May 2005 (UTC)


 * I must disagree. Proper names or items that are named in canon sources should be spelled properly. For example, lightsaber is spelled that way in all canon sources, and we should reflect that here. If an author uses an alternative English spelling method consistently in an article, any Wookipedians who edit or add to the article should respect it. If an author writes uses the spelling "armour" in a phrase, such as "Han Solo's shot bounced off Darth Vader's armour", and he is consistent throughout an article, it is acceptable. If an author uses the spelling for, say, a unit name, as in "The Rebel Alliance feared the 3rd Imperial Heavy Armour" -- it would be correctable via canon sources. If we take a hard and fast rule about the use of American English spelling, we may scare off or alienate potential participants, which would be unwise at this stage. In the end, we can make a decision on the final editing stance (perhaps having both US and UK versions of articles), but for now, it should be left alone. We have greater concerns to focus on. --SparqMan 01:48, 3 May 2005 (UTC)


 * I agree with SpargMan. It's just tiresome to have to revise my typing style just to Americanise words that really have no bearing on the article as a whole, and I suppose being 'corrected' for using your own language may not make some contributors happy. -Fade 15:19, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

Dating Systems
I noticed that it seems like the standard for dates here use the Battle of Yavin system, with that battle as a zero years. Would it be possible to use the Great Resynchronization system instead? I prefer it greatly to the BBY/ABY system; it just seems more 'realistic' from an in-universe perspective; that, plus it's used by both the modern Holonet News and the old Galaxy News Net breifs in the Star Wars Adventure Journal. I realize that almost everyone is more familiar with the BBY/ABY system, but that could be rectified by linking each year mentioned to an article about it (much like Wikipedia does) which not only has a list of the events that year, but also the corresponding date using the BBY/ABY system. I realize that many might not agree with me, and that it will take a bit of work to convert everything, but I think it's the best way to go. It's also more neutral, considering that the BBY/ABY system would only be favored by the Rebels and the other one was in use much longer. Gladius 06:42, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
 * While you have valid reasons, it's a lot of work, and for that reason alone I don't think it ends up as a net good result. It's hard enough getting people to work on articles, without the learning curve of a new calendar. This would cause a lot of people a lot of grief. It would be similar to requiring all Wikipedia articles about the Aztec to use only their calendar system.--Eion 06:49, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Its possible that it could be implimented in articles detailed those years defined by BBY/ABY, but hardly anyone would enjoy trying to learn a new dating system based on the Holonet's. -- Riffsyphon1024 06:44, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Besides, the average fan can grasp BBY immediately, but may never have heard of the Galaxy NewsNet or Holonet News systems. Silly Dan 11:31, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Alright, I understand where y'all are coming from. I'll stick to BBY/ABY from now on. -- Gladius 23:33, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

Refering to named Ships
For the Manual of Style, we should establish how we would like to refer to named ships in regards to the use of the article "the" before a name. For example:
 * "At the Battle of Endor, the Executor was the flagship of the Imperial Navy."
 * or
 * "At the Battle of Endor, Executor was the flagship of the Imperial Navy."

Is this a mere matter of choice in style, or does it demand a decision? --SparqMan 06:42, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Matter of choice I think. Maybe personal preference, just like our discussion on American/British English. -- Riffsyphon1024 06:45, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Standard navel practice use "the" before a class name, as in "The Executor Class Star Dreadnaught" but not in the ship's name, as in "HIMS Executor"--Eion 06:49, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Actually, naval communications uses the when the full name is used (as well as a class name), as in "the U.S.S. Nimitz", but would say, "We will dispatch Nimitz as soon as possible." --SparqMan 14:46, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
 * We're not talking about comms, but articles about the ships.--Eion 21:27, 3 May 2005 (UTC)


 * I'm glad this has been added to the Manual of Style, but I have one question: must HIMS be used every time a given (Imperial) ship is mentioned by name, or is it okay on subsequent mentionings to omit the prefix? -- Aidje 13:02, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
 * I think in most cases, only the first mention should be so formal.--Eion 21:27, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
 * HIMS is canon? --SparqMan 14:46, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
 * even if it is not, it is a reasonable conjecture. Lucas based the Imperial navy on terrestrial navies, and as such some carryover of terminology is acceptable.--Eion 21:27, 3 May 2005 (UTC)


 * HIMS isn't canon, but as Eion says it's a reasonable conjecture. Although the Revenge of the Sith novel reveals that RSS (presumably for Republic Star Ship) is the proper prefix for Republic vessels, so perhaps Imperial ships should rather be ISS or HIMSS? -- Gladius 23:40, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
 * An empire doesn't commission ships, the emperor does. Just as the government of the United Kingdom is referred to as "Her Majesty's Government", likewise are their ships referred to as "Her Majesty's Ship". Technically, the entire government of the UK (And by extension, the Galactic Empire), exists at the sovereigns’ pleasure. Unlike the US’s citizen government, in which the government is sovereign, in the UK and GE sovereignty rests with the sovereign herself. Further, the double SS on your second suggestion is redundant, HIMS stands for "His Imperial Majesty's Ship", as the use of the word "ship" in the astronomical sense has replaced the nautical sense.--Eion 23:54, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
 * That makes sense, thanks. I only suggested HIMSS since the Republic apparently used Star Ship rather than simply Ship-- although it was probably for asthetic reasons. RS sound stupid, as does HIMSS. HIMS it is then. -- Gladius 00:18, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
 * I've never seen a reference to HIMS in any books or sources -- I had always assumed that the Empire used numbers to identify the ships (as they do with everything else), and allowed the names to stay for morale purposes (and psychological purposes against insurgents). --SparqMan 23:46, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
 * They likely do, but just as the USS Enterprise of the US Navy is CVN-65, that is her hull classification symbol and registry, not her name.--Eion 23:54, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

In/Out of Universe Perspectives
Didn't see any other discussion on this. Should a policy on whether an article is written from an in or out of unvierse perpective be put in place? Personally, I'd like to see any articles on characters and such written from a totally IU POV, without any references to OOU stuff at all except for a Appearances or Behind the Scenes header at the bottom-- and even that should have a notation like I put in my Soontir Fel article. It just makes this whole wiki more realistic, especially if we format all the articles like they are on the regular Wikipedia. I noticed that a bunch of articles say in the middle of it what books a character appears in, or that they're from the star wars universe or whatever. To me it just detracts from the sense of realism.

I do think that articles about any OOU stuff, like books or merchandise, should obviously be written from an OOU perspective and perhaps noted be noted as such.

What do y'all think? -- Gladius 06:48, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
 * I have merged your OOU article to the Manual of Style. -- Riffsyphon1024 06:52, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Thanks! -- Gladius 23:38, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Gee I wish I had wings too. Seems needlessly complex and draconian. You need Suspension of Disbelief when viewing this kind of material, or else you have to accept that giant yellow letters zoom throughout space, all heroic actions are accompanied by orchestral music, and giant wipes whisk characters from scene to scene.--Eion 06:52, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Addendum, A clear IU/OU boundary is perhaps a mark of a great article, but even a fuzzy one drastically improves the "believability" of an article. Though I doubt anything from this wiki could be C&Ped direct into a novel as an "in universe" writing, it's nice to try.--Eion 06:57, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Look, I don't think it's that big of a deal. I'm just saying that any articles about characters an other IU stuff should probably, from now on, be written form as realistic and IU perspective as possible. It's not all that hard. I realize it sounds nitpicky, but reading about how a character was a bit part in ANH and played by so and so kinda yanks you out of the moment. Just look at the Biggs Darklighter or Thrawn articles. I realize that it's because they were shifted from the regular Wikipedia, but they sould probably either be redone as a 'real' type of article in the style of the real articles on main Wikipedia. I tried to emulate that style, for instance, in the Baron Fel article I submitted, and it wasn't that hard. I just used articles about folks like Rommel, Eisenhower, and Lee as examples to work off of. -- Gladius 23:39, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
 * No, I actually agree with you. Sorry if it came off otherwise, it was late. I try to do so as well, even if it is with tongue firmly in cheek on occasion.--Eion 23:57, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Hah, alright, thanks. I get what you mean. -- Gladius 00:20, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Would it be helpful to create a template tag for articles that require IU/OOU cleaning? Or should the tag include it, now that it has been merged into the Manual of Style? --SparqMan 07:01, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
 * I think that would be a great idea, to tag all the horribly OOU articles with that so someone can fix them up. Maybe the maual of style can have more detailed guideline on how to write new 'realistic' articles. The boxes describing eye and hair color, for example, are kinda tacky and could be included in the article (although that's just my opinion). -- Gladius 23:39, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Such boxes are used in the EGTC & NEGTC, and IMHO having to start each char article with "He had blue eyes, brown hair, and stood 1.8 meters tall" would be more tacky.--Eion 00:22, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Shouldn't the box portray vital information? I fail to see how hair or eye color (unless a distinguishing feature) is important to grasp immediately. Their need is particularly useless when the article is accompanied by an image (or multiple images). --SparqMan 01:03, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Are you willing to assume that all images will readily show eye color? I'm not, and I don't see anything wrong with a brief, uniform space for vital statistics, especially when it saves us from sounding like 3rd graders in the writing, not to mention precedent in the EGs.--Eion 01:53, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
 * The current boxes list species, gender, home planet, and affiliation, all of which should be described in the article anyway. The only two that normally wouldn't be are hair and eye color, and those can be determined from a provided picture (which is available for all characters about whom that information is known). The boxes are unnecessary and look unprofessional; this is supposed to be an encyclopedia-type site, not another essential guide. -- Gladius 02:32, 4 May 2005 (UTC)


 * You don't think it possible that a character may warrant a mention of their eye or hair color, but not a picture, in official sources? Or one is not available? I think the boxes summarize vital statistics in an efficient, and provide a continuous design element., which I feel is an element of any professional work. We clearly disagree on this.--Eion 02:41, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Clearly. My reasoning is that, in real life articles hair or eye color is never mentioned, and putting it in a box especially just looks odd. You may as well put RPG statistics while you're at it. I suppose if it must be included, and no picture is available, than it could easily go in a "Trivia" section at the end of the article along with other things that don't fit elsewhere, such as favorite foods or nicknames. It would look much better that way. -- Gladius 02:52, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
 * I view such char articles as that person's official record, and a person's official record ought to include such vital statistics. Imagine if an FBI file listed hair color under trivia. Does that make sense? No, it should be in large bold letters in a standardized box under your picture. If they gave us Han Solo's blood type, I'd want it in the Vital Statistics box. If they gave us his favorite song, I'd want it in the Trivia. Form must follow Function.--Eion 02:57, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
 * The way I'm looking at it is that this isn't a FBI database or whatever, this is an encyclopedia, and encyclopedias don't generally include inane stuff like eye or hair color unless it's somehow unusual or relevant, and especially not in a tacky big chart at the top of the page. A George Bush article wouldn't say Hair Color: Brown Eye Color: Brown Affiliation: United States and so on, for example. It's a difference of asthetic opinion, I guess. -- Gladius 20:36, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
 * While In Universe is a good idea, we gotta have some OOU content in IU articles. For example, if you want to compare a character or ship to real-world people/vehicles. I think the best thing would be to seperate them in each article. For example, Jar Jar Binks is completely OOU at first, talking about fan reaction and who acted him and the like, than going on to talk about the actual story. Perhaps we should do it like that, only flipping it, so character stuff is first, than there's a section for each thing about real world stuff, like a list of where the topic was featured and introduced, and how heavily, real-world inspirations and comparisons, etc. Like in SW databank when they have movies, EU, and "behind the scenes" sections for each entry.-LtNOWIS 03:13, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
 * I agree, that is the best way to handle such mixed articles. Certain articles (The Films in particular) defy this though, as certain OU infomation (casting, poster, gross, etc.) should appear at the top of the page.
 * picture (which is available for all characters about whom that information is known)
 * I doubt this is the case. I'm sure there are EU characters who's physical characteristics are described, while the character is not portrayed in any official artwork. Broad sweeping statements using words such as all, every, never, always, etc. are almost "always" wrong :-) -- Aidje 03:20, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
 * You're right, sorry. I shoud have said "most characters"-- most main characters, at least, have some picture of them somewhere, although alot minor ones don't. -- Gladius 20:36, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
 * I have created the template to mark articles that contain inappropriate OOU content. The listing can be viewed here: Out of Universe cleanup. Many of the articles simply require a little fix at the top (removing the "in the fictional universe..." bit), but some require a more comprehensive workover to focus the articles in IU content and/or separate out valuable OOU content into a section. Please add the template tag to articles that require it as you see them. --SparqMan 06:34, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Whoa, wait a second. That part you just mentioned is wookification. It's already covered, because that kind of statement is just left over from Wikipedia. I thought you were talking about more subtle differences, the kind of thing that would be written on this Wiki rather than the kind of thing that would be written on Wikipedia and then moved here. Doubtless, OOU cleanup would be a vital part of the wookification process, but I'm not sure that outright "This is Star Wars" statements quite fit into that category. I thought it was more like "In blahblah book" statements that were merely trying to tell people which book something was in, rather than the statements that assume one doesn't even know it's fictional to begin with. I hope I'm making sense. I think there should be somewhat clear lines here&mdash;totally blurred lines can cause great confusion. We must take care. -- Aidje 14:24, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Right, we would certainly want an article on Luke to mention Mark Hamil. To clarify what I was saying, a segregated or semi-segrated system might work fairly well. I think each IU article should have a section saying where it's from or introduced, especially the minor stuff, so we can look it up and see that it actually exists. This would prevent fake stuff from being inserted, and also let people make their own decisions on canon. I pesrsonally don't mind having phrases like "featured heavily in Star Wars: ..." in article titles, but I think it's better to at least divide it by paragraphs-LtNOWIS 15:45, 4 May 2005 (UTC)


 * I don't have anything to say, other than I'm watching this thread closely. FYI--Kosure 14:31, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
 * The OOU tagging is being used for articles with glaring issues that can be easily corrected. While it's wookification, I've created the tag to make them easier to see, just as there are multiple types of tags. I agree with LtNOWIS: a good reference section should handle a large number of the issues, and the rest (particularly movie related articles) can be segregated within the article. --SparqMan 16:02, 4 May 2005 (UTC)


 * Okay, forget what I said. I see that there's overlap between the two, but that neither is a complete subset of the other. This worried me at first. Not sure why. I think I understand why it's okay now. -- Aidje 16:23, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I'm thinking that basically the whole article should be IU, then at the end have a "Behind the Scenes" heading where you say who created him/her/it, what actor played a character, misc. stuff about the design process of the subject, etc. Then in the References heading list all the sources the subject appears in. That way the article is realisitically IU with not "then in X book so and so did this," but readers can still see where they appeared and click on the source links for summaries. -- Gladius 20:36, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
 * The Yoda article is like this already isn't it. Use that as an example. -- Riffsyphon1024 21:07, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Well... the Yoda article isn't quite what I had in mind. It includes alot of OOU references inside the article. IMO I'd move all of the references of the materials he appears in to a "References" heading at the the bottom, above "External Links," and move all of the stuff like the Sanskrit origin of his name, George Lucas keeping his species secret, and so on to a "Behind the Scenes" header above "References." I think the Baron Fel article serves as a good template for this sort of thing (but then I wrote it so I may be biased ;) ). -- Gladius 22:02, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
 * I have edited Ponda Baba, Wedge Antilles, and Doctor Evazan in more-or-less the same way. Silly Dan 22:37, 4 May 2005 (UTC)

Abbreviations
What are the acceptable abbreviations for the various governments? Does GE for Galactic Empire, NR for New Republic, RA for Rebel Alliance, GR for Galactic Republic, and EotH for Empire of the Hand all work? Or should it just be EH for the Empire of the Hand? I'm wondering because saying "Empire of the Hand" multiple times in a single paragraph gets clunky, and the only 'standard' or official abbreviation that I'm aware of is CIS. Are the above ones all reasily recognizable enough, or is there something else for each? -- Gladius 00:23, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
 * I try to avoid using abreviations in articles, but of course I get lazy on the talk pages. That's just my preference. It could be solved in this way:
 * The Empire of the Hand (Hereafter refered to as the EotH (or Empire).
 * using this text at the top of an article would allow you to use whichever abbreviation suited you. Over time, an accepted list of abbreviations will emerge, but I'm uncertain any such meme exists yet.--Eion 00:31, 4 May 2005 (UTC)


 * I would agree. Abbreviations, unless used "in universe", should be kept out of articles. We should follow the Wikipedia style guide on the appropriate use of abbreviations beyond that. --SparqMan 01:05, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
 * I'm guessing that NR would work for New Republic. After all, NRI is an accepted abbr for New Republic Inteligence (used in JKII). Shadowtrooper 01:42, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
 * That sounds reasonable. A minor question: what would the adjective for the Empire of the Hand be? Imperial? Hand Imperial? I can't think of anything that sounds right and isnt' confusing. -- Gladius 02:36, 4 May 2005 (UTC)

Tense
I am assuming that we should write as if the latest source (furthest in the future) is the present tense. So that an article about the New Republic (now the Galactic Alliance) should be in the past tense. Correct? --SparqMan 01:38, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Talk:Main_Page Shadowtrooper 01:44, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Past tense is the safest bet in most cases, Planets (unless destroyed) could be in present tense.--Eion 01:49, 4 May 2005 (UTC)

Spoiler Warnings
While I respect the need for spoiler warnings, I think they are vastly overused in articles. Isn't it safe to assume that if a user clicks on "Leia Organa" they want to learn everything about her? The only place where this seems to make sense is for EPIII where people don't want any related info before they see the films. I imagine that users would come here seeking information fully aware that they will uncover "spoiler" information. Thoughts? --SparqMan 21:07, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
 * That was the point of the Ep III spoiler templates. -- Riffsyphon1024 21:08, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
 * So could spoiler warnings be removed from all but the RotS-related articles? And will those be removed about a month or so after RotS comes out? -- Gladius 22:30, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Believe it or not, some people might have to wait until the DVD comes out. They stay for now. -- Riffsyphon1024 22:37, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
 * What about the non-RotS spoiler warnings? -- Gladius 22:50, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
 * That will require consensus from the community. -- Riffsyphon1024 22:51, 4 May 2005 (UTC)