Talk:Form VII/Archive1

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Out of Universe?
What is out of the universe in this article? I read it and found nothing. Please specify. TopAce
 * The end: "In KOTOR 2, occurring some 3950 years before the Clone Wars"... And the Jedi Guardians being mentioned, of course. - Sikon [ Talk ] 14:21, 27 Oct 2005 (UTC)

I removed the KOTOR and Jedi Guardian parts, and changed the line a bit. How's that? 70.17.148.132 16:26, 27 Oct 2005 (UTC)

Echuu
I don't remember Echuu being mentioned as a master of Vaapad in the Battlegrounds game. Have I forgotten, has it been mentioned somewhere else, or is it simply an assumption based on him having been Windu's Padawan? --Fade 16:35, 16 Nov 2005 (UTC)

- Sounds an assumption to me. What may be removed because since Vaapad needed the knowledge of the all forms, so Windu in theory knew all forms and had the priviledge to teach any of these forms to Echuu. - TopAce 23:07, 17 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * I vote for removing Echuu - i know he is Mace's Padawan, but still, there are too many sources which indicate that Mace / Sora / Depa / Vos(a bit) are the only learners of Vaapad in the Order. Darth Kevinmhk 03:22, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I find it likely that Mace would impart upon Echuu some knowledge of his form. Echuu was one of the Order's greatest masters, likely in the echelon just below that of the most elite of the council, like around Luminara Unduli's level. I just don't think he could have possibly learned enough of Vaapad to have it count as even being incomplete. -Cjh37
 * What are you talking about TopAce? Vaapad didn't require knowlege of all forms. In fact i doubt that's ever mentioned anywhere, in any books, games or movies. Can you please tell me where ypu got this information, because I highly doubt Mace learned all seven forms, including the supposedly most difficult, Vaapad. Venators 09:47, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Dude, that was three years ago.  Chack Jadson  (Talk) 13:55, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Dark Sidious and Juyo???
The only people I believed to have ever used Vaapad effectively is Master Windu, Sora Bulq, and Windu's former padawan and council member Depa Billaba, since Windu and Bulq were both responsible for it creation and Windu taught it to Depa.

After being taught and studying the other 6 lightsaber combat, Darth Maul also developed his own lightsaber style based on Juyo and combined his technique with his double-bladed lightsaber.

Though I'm sure that Darth Sidious is familiar enough with Juyo, from what I heard and read he appears to use a fighting form similar to Ataru though he combines more stabs and thrusting motions. Darth Niggie Dec 5
 * So Darth Sidious is now a confirmed Juyo parcticioner? Huzzah! Huzzah! But what is the source. Derek Yoda&#39;s friend 01:48, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
 * No source. Not canon. Will not be in article. Atarumaster88  Jedi_Order.svg ( Audience Chamber ) 02:42, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Sids uses the opening stance for Juyo three or four times, and his fighting style fits the exact description of Juyo as in the Star Wars Insider 62, all evidence points to Sids using Juyo, but no source...still. Derek Yoda&#39;s friend 22:59, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
 * The opening stance of Juyo? Is that sourced in itself? The whole Sids saber form thing smacks of Original Research to me. Atarumaster88  Jedi_Order.svg ( Audience Chamber ) 04:31, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I apologize I did not know that the Opening Stance for Juyo was not sourced. Derek Yoda&#39;s friend 04:09, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
 * It is certain that Sidious knew and used Juyo. My reasons for this are that Vaapad was developed from the ashes of the Jedi's Juyo, and it likey applied the same or a very similar opening possition, which can be seen. Secondly, some of the blows on Sidious's part in the duel were rather un-Ataru like, although he obviously applied some Ataru and possibly some Makashi techniques. It is possible, however, that Juyo was another compounded form, like Niman (consisting of III, IV and V) with a few techniques and characteristics of it's own. Should this be ture, it is likely it consisted forms II an IV, and perhaps others. Anyways, a source could be the Lightsaber book that states Juyo was taught to Maul by Sidious. That at least shows Sidious knew it. Ep. III should and can also be used as a source due to the opening stance. That, and if you look up the line of Sith Lords and who succeeded who, you will find eveyrthing directly translated back to Darth Bane. Sith are known to teach their apprenticees everything they know (or if their apprentice is unable to learn it, at least teach them of it's existance, and how to use it and maybe make a holocron) in order to pass down the knowledge so that one day, hopefully, the Republic is overthrown. That would include Juyo, hence Sidious used Juyo. To further this, The Force Unleashed novel states that Vader learned Juyo. Maul also learned the technique FROM SIDIOUS and there is a canonical source stating that. -Cjh37
 * It's quite possible Sidious learned all seven forms and just put the best parts of each into his own form, but seeing as it never mention directly that sidious knows Juyo, it should not be put in the article. DESPITE your argument Cjh37. Venators 09:53, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Same thing; this is from years ago.  Chack Jadson  (Talk) 13:55, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Juyo?
The article is Vaapad-centred, what about the older Juyo form? What do we know about its strength, advantages, disadvantages before Mace completed it with Vaapad? - TopAce 11:29, 6 Jan 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, we know it's cool and effective, since Maul used it. I think more info could be found in KotOR II. --Master Starkeiller 12:21, 6 Jan 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, Maul did use it, but I am more curious about how it had been used with a single sabre. Maul used a dual-blade Sith lightsaber, that is basically different from any other single-sabre wielders. Do you say KotOR II? I once came across a site that compares the lightsaber forms based on KotOR II. If those are the real statistics in-game, I say I wouldn't consider it canon. It has some very weird things, setting up Makashi weak against a single opponent and Niman as the "Good for everything form". Makashi happens to be the best in "one vs. one". As for Niman, we saw if wielded very effectively by Coleman Trebor who could defend himself for two blaster shots and get hit by the third. - TopAce 19:41, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I think the essence of this is that Juyo is incomplete. The most we can say is that its moves are staccatoed and unpredictable, which we can see when Maul uses the hilt of his lightsaber to unexpectedly hit Qui-Gon in the face, then run him through quickly.--66.231.106.12 05:59, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Juyo has the same strengths and weaknesses as Vaapad. Vaapad is pretty much an upgrade of Juyo, so its pretty much the same, only more extreme.
 * As explained in KOTOR II, Juyo is more of an extreme focus on one opponent. Vaapad, at least as I understand it, focuses on one opponent, but also incorporates emotion to it. Jedi who use Vaapad put themselves in danger of falling to the dark side, and it a strong focus on the Light Side to keep their emotions from overwhelming them, someone like Mace Windu.--Atlas503 07:03, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Coincidental as it was that Samuel Jackson asked for a Violet lightsaber, if you think about it, Violet is a combination of blue, the color of the lightsaber of a Jedi Guardian (the combat masters of the Jedi), and red, the color usually associated with the Sith. It is the fine line between the two colors...and Vaapad is the fine line between Jedi combat and Sith rage. Perhaps Lucas intended this?--Atlas503 07:03, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Juyo is High Galactic

 * According to The Dark Forces Saga, "...adapted Form VII lightsaber combat (or Juyo in High Galactic)". Maybe we should mention in the article that Juyo is actaully a term of High Galactic to describe Form VII? Darth Kevinmhk 04:01, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

New image

 * Just uploaded this great image. Should we use it? Darth Kevinmhk 11:22, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Someone else already uploaded an identical image a more than a month ago (on Feb. 28) for the Force Lightning page. See:

Doesn't Wookieepedia have rules against having intentical images under different filenames? 70.109.224.125 16:46, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Oops. Doesnt know that. I checked Mace's gallery, and it was not linked there, so I uploaded one... Darth Kevinmhk 08:33, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
 * And fine, i will deal with my mistake, but the point is, should we use the image (the earlier one then) in the main article as "A visual representation of the superconducting loop between two Form VII masters." ? Darth Kevinmhk 08:53, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Vaapad died?

 * Where is the source that indicates that Vaapad didn't survive after the OJO. TNO have revealed that they do indeed know lightsaber combat forms and i doubt mace didnt make a recording of his teachings.
 * So, do you have any source which specify Vaapad survived the Purge? When not even Shii-Cho, Makashi, Soresu, Ataru, Shien/Djem So, Niman or Juyo was canonically confirmed surviving the Purge, I very doubt Vaapad survived. Darth Kevinmhk 02:09, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
 * something obviously survived and I doubt that once they regained control of the jedi temple and all the scrolls on Ossus and the fact that Jacen Solo remembers seeing a holorecord of Mace Windu, and if they had this info it is also likely that they had info on saber combat. Kenobis writing may also have info. they could not destroy all the records and even if they did, they could be recovered, and yoda and obiwan could have taken those files before leaving the temple. Point is they seem to know lightsaber combat in NJO.
 * All of the above was just speculation. No canonical source confirmed that the seven forms survived the Purge except Luke mirroring Vader aboard DS2, thus carrying Form V onwards. Darth Kevinmhk 14:57, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
 * So there is no canon source for either, thus it is speculation and being which should be removed. Lightsaber form didnt die during the purge.
 * We might as well just open this page to fanon as that what many seem to want. Vaapad dying? No source and unlikely.
 * Actually, both Star Wars: Galaxies and Hero's Guide, written from a post Yavin POV, IIRC, have information on the saber forms. Atarumaster88  Jedi_Order.svg ( Audience Chamber ) 05:51, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Vaapad survived via Mace's lectures on the Great Holocron, rediscovered by the New Jedi Order in 40ABY.

Darth Bane and Vaapad
In Path of Distruction, one of the Sith students, Sirak, is said to use "the jabs and thrusts of Vaapad." Doesn't this directly contradict the fact that Windu created Vaapad? Duke Starhopper 21:28, 30 September 2006 (UTC) --Black Jack Scarron 23:26, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I'd say yes, it does. -  Angel Blue 451 Jedi_Order.svg(Holonet) 21:30, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
 * It could be retconned to be Mace invented the Jedi version of Vaapad.
 * No, the lightsaber combat forms are the same whethere jedi or sith, there isn't a jedi version or a sith version of any form, this along with other issues such as a few deaths are under discussion in the senate hall as they are contradicting other sources, please go and input your views. Jedi Dude
 * Drew K. signed my copy of the book and he told me it was just a mistake on his part. He knows Vaapad didn't exist then. There was only Juyo. Drew K. was really tired one night when he typed that error. He told me to just pretend it says Juyo.
 * In Star Wars Insider #92, they have a possible retcon. but I don't like it at all. Drew Karpyshyn already said it was a mistake, so I don't see a need for a retcon when the AUTHOR HIMSELF said IT WAS A MISTAKE.and to JUST PRETEND IT SAYS 'JUYO'.--Jedi Kasra 03:57, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Insider is canon. Too bad. We don't get to pick and choose canon, just report it. Atarumaster88  13:06, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Alright, but it was known as 'Juyo' 2,000 years before when Kavar used it, so it would still contradict the fact that Mace created Vaapad to complete the incomplete Juyo, and there are Jedi Variants and Sith variants to the forms. And doesn't Yoda say in Shatterpoint that there were the six forms for generations of Jedi? So I hold the theory that Kavar probably created the original form,although it was not recognized as canon by that Jedi Council, and maybe taught Revan and the Jedi Exile Juyo and then the Jedi teachings on Juyo were lost"for generations of Jedi".--Jedi Kasra 16:50, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Kasra, we don't tolerate fanon here at all on our articles. Your "theory" is fanon, and there's no source that says a) Kavar created Juyo, b) Revan knew Juyo, or c) Exile knew Juyo. And the retcon is canon, so aside from a little BTS mention, there's no debate open on the topic. Atarumaster88  17:21, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

This is interesting... Actually,

1. There is a Sith variant to lightsaber Forms - at least one: Juyo. Canon sources have been shown, describing Darth Maul's Juyo as a "Sith variation" and as such this coincides with Palpatine's Sith Juyo. There has even been scant evidence to show that the Lus-Ma Form that Dooku learned from Sidious and taught to his minions is, accordingly, the name of that Sith varient. And...

2.Actually, Revan does know Juyo. During the video where Bastilla and her striketeam board the Leviathan to take him captive, he is seen moving his lightsaber in the exact cadences that Mace Windu's does in the RotS Video Game. The Video Game's fight coreography was designed personally by Nick Gillard, the creater of most of the Lightsaber Forms for the movies. In the making of the Game section of the Star Wars Special Edition Trilogy DVD release, it is revealed that Gillard deliberatly took special and painstaking care to illustrate fully how each Form actually functioned in the Star Wars Universe and transmitted it into the game. Mace Windu's movements in the Game, are accordingly, those of Juyo/Vapaad. Revan mirrors those movements, signifying physically, to those with 20/20 vision and half a brain, that he is a practioner though most likely a Master, of Juyo. --The truth hurts... 01:16, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

The comparison you've made between the game's movements and Revan is fan speculation and therefore cannot be used on Wookieepedia, sorry. Atarumaster88 (Talk page) 05:42, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Do you have 20/20 vision? Go check it out then.

If you have at least half a brain, you'll register that I'm correct. So go, check it out. --The truth hurts... 21:31, 18 January 2008 (UTC) Oh, almost forgot. Go check out the source I provided you with as well. It will be located on the Special Features disc of the latest version of the Star Wars Trilogy DVD Collection. The Behind-The-Scenes featurette on the game will give you all the information you need, to come to terms with the truth. --The truth hurts... 21:39, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm going to assume that you're new and possibly not aware of the rules pertaining to posting on forums, but please be aware that insulting me is a violation of Wookieepedia:Civility and continuing to make personal attacks will get you banned. I read your post, and even checked the source. Perhaps I wasn't clear enough the first time. Here's the problem: Any comparison of Mace Windu's moves to Revan's are fanon/original research. See Canon. Until Lucasfilm Ltd., or a licensed source explicitly says that Revan used Vaapad, it cannot and will not be placed in the article. Furthermore, Juyo was also known to Jedi, though Darth Maul certainly used his own variation of the form. Atarumaster88 (Talk page) 22:47, 18 January 2008 (UTC) And I said that Darth Maul used a variation of the Form. --The truth hurts... 20:18, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I see what you mean, even If it's obvious that Revan uses Juyo, If no official source states it outright, then he dosen't.
 * This was a typo on behalf of the Author. He meant Juyo. -Cjh37

Canon Issue
In Shatterpoint it is said that Mace created Juyo/Vaapad how is this justrafied for KOTOR II? Valin &quot;Tnu&quot; &quot;Shido&quot; Suul 04:17, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Mace didn't create Juyo. He just refined it into Vaapad.-- Lord Oblivion Sith holocronSith_Emblem.svg 04:40, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
 * To be more specific, he created Vaapad from the ashes of Juyo, which was essentially lost to the Jedi, though how is unknown.

Too Many Pictures?
Too me, it seems there may be too many images rather than too few. It seems distracting to the article as a whole. Opinions? User-Name 00:38, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
 * The pictures all seem nesacery so I think we should just add more information. Derek Yoda&#39;s friend 02:29, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Practitioners
^^^^^^ I think that sums up what Sidious did and didnt know don't you? Darth Byss 22:19, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Do not add "rumored" practitioners without a really good explanation, not just your personal theories. Exar Kun is not. Sidious is not confirmed to have known Juyo. Atarumaster88  Jedi_Order.svg ( Audience Chamber ) 17:32, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Pertaining to whether Sidious is right-handed or left-handed with a lightsaber, he's ambidextrous. He's just that good. Sidious' abilities are beyond anything we've experienced. It took a really long time for Nick (Gillard) to work out Sidious' fighting style, and he has a style that's constantly changing. His style is one in which you'll never get the better of him. It is ambiguous --- he'll fight less than you and draw you in; you're a sucker if you think you're going to better him. Sidious is a master of every weapon and every style. - Nick Gillard
 * Sure. But it never says anything about Juyo, so that remains speculation. And Gillard also said he and his stunt crew don't consider the 7 forms. Atarumaster88  Jedi_Order.svg ( Audience Chamber ) 23:15, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Still...we could write it in saying that he mastered all combat forms and we would still be in agreement with canon. Darth Byss 01:57, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
 * It's already on Sidious' article, I believe. Atarumaster88  Jedi_Order.svg ( Audience Chamber ) 04:37, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Good. Darth Byss 16:49, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
 * It is certain that Sidious knew and used Juyo. My reasons for this are that Vaapad was developed from the ashes of the Jedi's Juyo, and it likey applied the same or a very similar opening possition, which can be seen. Secondly, some of the blows on Sidious's part in the duel were rather un-Ataru like, although he obviously applied some Ataru and possibly some Makashi techniques. It is possible, however, that Juyo was another compounded form, like Niman (consisting of III, IV and V) with a few techniques and characteristics of it's own. Should this be ture, it is likely it consisted forms II an IV, and perhaps others. Anyways, a source could be the Lightsaber book that states Juyo was taught to Maul by Sidious. That at least shows Sidious knew it. Ep. III should and can also be used as a source due to the opening stance. That, and if you look up the line of Sith Lords and who succeeded who, you will find eveyrthing directly translated back to Darth Bane. Sith are known to teach their apprenticees everything they know (or if their apprentice is unable to learn it, at least teach them of it's existance, and how to use it and maybe make a holocron) in order to pass down the knowledge so that one day, hopefully, the Republic is overthrown. That would include Juyo, hence Sidious used Juyo. To further this, The Force Unleashed novel states that Vader learned Juyo. Maul also learned the technique FROM SIDIOUS and there is a canonical source stating that. -Cjh37
 * That's speculation. Unless a canon source specifically states "Palpatine used Juyo in combat", he can't and won't be listed in this article. Gray Jedi 07:03, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
 * It is NOT speculation. How else did Maul and Vader learn it? -Cjh37
 * It doesn't matter how they learned it. Even if they did learn the techniques from Sidious, that does not mean he is a practitioner. // ~mikah~  14:48, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Actually, it does. It means that he at least knew it. That is a fact. It is undeniable. It is stated in the Fightsaber book thingy that Maul was trained by Sidious. Interesting how it also says Maul uses Juyo, isn't it? That means Sidious DID FOR FACT impart his knowledge of Juyo unto his apprentice Maul. Because of those canonical statements, it can be easily confirmed that Maul did not use a holocron to learn Juyo. Vader possibly picked up on it assuming Sidious decided to teach him what little he could of lightsaber combat. It's also possible that he looked through the Great Holocron for Mace's teachings during Opperation: Knightfall, hence explaining what little of Juyo and Vaapad he knew. And when did anyone who used Ataru use Sidious's fighting possition? Luminara Unduli, a Soresu user who implemented Ataru into her form, used the possition Sidious originally started in, but Sidious switched to one more resembling Mace's. The only other form that used a starting possition like that was Niman, hinting that he did not use Juyo, he likely used Niman. Sidious also uses far more stabs than the standard Ataru or Niman user. And another thing. Obi-Wan still had Soresu as his predominately used form, but he still used some parts of Ataru in his duels, all of them. That means if Sidious knew Juyo, which he did, he would have implemented some of it in his fighting. -Cjh37
 * Yes, he knew it. But that does not make him a practitioner of Juyo, as I said earlier. I know about certain medical procedures, and can inform others on how they are performed, but does that make me a doctor? // ~mikah~  22:50, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
 * No canon source has actually stated, as a fact, that Palpatine used Juyo. To say that he used it when no source has stated it as a fact is nothing more than speculation and original reasearch, which are not allowed. Just becuase maul knew Juyo doesn't make Palpatine a Juyo practitioner. Look at it like this: Anakin was a practitioner of Form V, and yet Obi-Wan used Form III (and at one point, IV). Just because Ankian learned Form V somewhere doesn't mean that Obi-wan was a form V practionioner, even though Obi-Wan was Anakin's master. It's the same thing here: Just because Maul used Juyo, it doesn't mean his master was a Juyo Practioner. No canon source has directly stated as a fact that Palpatine used Juyo, so he can't be listed as a Juyo practitioner. Speculating based on Palpatine's moves, and what his apprentices knew is just speculation, and can't be included in the article unless a canon source actually says specifically that Palpatine used Juyo. Gray Jedi 20:19, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
 * If he at least knew it, he was certain to implement some of it's moves into his style. And about mikah's statements... you would use your skill in everyday life, though. Other people would come to you for assistance on occasion if they didn't want to see a certified doctor, assuming they knew of your knowledge, as they likely would. Anyways, Form V was created by Form III users who wanted a more offensive version of Form III, so that argument doesn't work. Plus, the Sith didn't have access to many holocrons (if any) during Sidious's time. That, and Vrook Lamar's predominate form was likely a force form (something Sidious may have also used), as he was a Consular. -Cjh37
 * You don't get it. If no canon source specifically says Palpatine was a Juyo practitioner, he won't be listed in the article. No confirmation from a canon source that specifically identifies him as a Juyo practitioner means he will not be listed. Assuming he knew Juyo just because Maul knew it, and based on what his movements look like is nothing more than an assuumption, and original research. Wookieepedia is based on canon facts, not your guesses, theories, or assumptions. Unless a legitimate, canon source specifically identifies him as a Juyo practitioner, he won't be listed in this article. Gray Jedi 23:54, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Did Fightsaber: Jedi Lightsaber Combat not state that Sidious taught Maul Juyo? If that's not direct then I don't know what is. And the movies are the absolute highest source of canon. Are you saying him assuming what we know to be a Vaapad starting possition to be at least remotely convincing? This is not fanon we are talking about here. The movies were deliberately choreographed that way. This is canon. -Cjh37
 * First, Fightsaber says nothing about Maul learning it from Palpapatine. I have Insider 62 and checked the article, it only says Maul knew it, not who taught him. Second The Forms are from the Expanded Universe, and are never mentioned in the movies. I don't know how to explain it any simpiler than this: Unless a canon source specifically says the words "Palpatine used Juyo in combat" or "Palpatine is a Juyo practitioner" he won't be included in the article. You're assuming he uses Juyo even though no canon source has ever actually identified his form.  I have contacted Atarumaster88, one of this sites administrators, and asked him to settle this issue. So I'll just leave it to him, since you refuse to accept anything I say. Gray Jedi 06:10, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Okay, I checked Fightsaber and you were correct. Ask yourself this, though... Where did Maul learn it. Anyways, when, in the likely event that this happens, Sidious is confirmed as a Juyo user, you can be assured I will scoff in your face. -Cjh37
 * If you look at the very top of this segment, I specifically, explicitly said two things. 1) Palpatine is not a confirmed practitioner of any style of Form VII. 2) Do not add "possible users" to the article. The reasons for that have already been said by Gray Jedi, so I see no need to repeat them. I will say this, though, in that you're entitled to your opinion, but you are not entitled to continue putting that opinion into the article. In fact, you're not really entitled to continue espousing said opinion on a talk page, when it's been canonically proven that you're wrong (or at least not confirmed by any canonical source). As such, if you continue to make edits to the article that reflect your own opinion and not canon, you will be taking a week-long timeout from Wookieepedia in which to contemplate your misdeeds. Thank you. Atarumaster88  Jedi_Order.svg ( Talk page ) 23:46, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Never has it canonically stated that Sidious did not use it, so don't even go there. In fact, there is far more knowledge suggesting that he did, in fact, use Juyo in battle, so don't even bother denying that. I will agree that it is also possible that he used an entire slur of styles, but as it stands, the only 2 possible styles he could have used are 1-6 mixed whilst imitating Mace (a sign of his manipulation and mind control) or Juyo. -Cjh37
 * I think Jaina came incredibly close to this with the technique Bevin taught her to use on Mandalore. The way it's described as treading close to the dark side is similar, but not the same as the manadlorian style, which still required a person to more or less open up to their rage. Also it involved great amounts of offense with little in terms of defense as a result of the number of attacks. Even if she didn't learn it as the vaapad, the mandalorian style is incredibly close to being the same. Sia Fel
 * That's nice, but that's also fanon and shouldn't be included in the article. Also, personally, I think that the idea of having a non-Force-sensitive Mandalorian coming anywhere close to something that draws so heavily on the Force is faintly ludicrous. Atarumaster88  Jedi_Order.svg ( Talk page ) 20:28, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
 * True I agree with that, what I'm saying is that the mental state for the mandalorian style of fight is incredibly similar in my opinion, I really just think that she qualifies, but it's my opinion. Jaina also called their fighting style as skirting the darkside, or something similar to that, I don't have my book with me at the moment Sia Fel

Juyo and Vaapad should be seperated
I think to avoid confusion to readers of this article, I think Juyo and Vaapad should be seperated, because they are to different things so they should be put on different pages. Derek Yoda&#39;s friend 02:26, 13 February 2007 (UTC) Maybe we can just seperate them within the article, noting the differences in the two styles or something, since the article seems more oriented towards Vaapad. Make it kind of like the Shien/Djem So article, seperating the two. --Hencho414 13:12, 13 March 2007 (UTC) I reckon that Vaapad is simply the name of Mace Windu's variant of Juyo, instead of being an advanced version. Mace uses Juyo to turn his inner darkness into a weapon of the light, whereas Darth Maul and Darth Sidious, both being Darksiders, use Juyo without Mace's mental conditioning; therefore demonstrating its ferocity (hence the name). The reason Form VII is seen as incomplete is because it has fallen into disuse due to its link to the darkside, it may even have been created by the Sith, who knows? Darth Raivon 16:18, 26 February 2008
 * But they are both Form VII, aren't they? I don't have too big of an opinion on this one, I'm just curious. Atarumaster88  Jedi_Order.svg ( Audience Chamber ) 03:04, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
 * It seems fine as it is. They are both form VII, but I think Juyo was known as an incomplete form, and Mace Windu completed it with Vaapad. - N ighthawk L eader    05:32, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I thought Juyo was a complete, effective form, and Mace Windu just created Vaapad as an upgrade. Darth Vatrir
 * History is sort of foggy, but yes, that's true. The new book should have more on that. Atarumaster88  Jedi_Order.svg ( Audience Chamber ) 19:48, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree with Derek. This article should be split into two. The Essential Guide to the Force clearly lists Form VII to be Juyo, with Vaapad being more of a variant lightsaber form, much like Sokan or Shien. It should be allowed its own article. grobiano

After reading the entire article carefully I have deduced that Juyo allows the Jedi to absorb the power of their opponent, making them stronger. The problem is that, if used against a Sith, the Jedi would essentially be calling on the dark side. This is probably why the form fell into disuse as the Jedi would view it as dangerous and corruptive. Vaapad is different in that, instead of absorbing the opponents power, it basically reflects it back without affecting the user. An example of Juyo's power is demonstrated by Darth Maul after Obi Wan severs his lightsaber, forcing him to fight with a single blade; Maul absorbs Kenobi's rage, speeding his attacks and later unleashing it as a Force Push. In short: Juyo allows the user to match their opponent and defeat them (Darth Maul vs Obi Wan), while Vaapad turns the opponent's own power against them (Mace Windu vs Sidious). Please comment. Darth Raivon 17:16, 27 February 2008

I agree with Hencho414. We could do like Form V and descirbe both.Jabezstara Your confusing that with how just tapping into Vapaad affects the practioner, which is a seperate issue. In other words, yes, the practioner's own darkness will affect him, but by utilising the super-conducting-loop, the technique you just described above, all dark energy not originating from the practioner but from the opponant, is reflected back against him and thus the vapaad practioner is not affected by it. Hope that clears things up. --69.51.150.90 21:35, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
 * The whole "Vaapad reflects an oponents power back at them without affecting the user" thing is wrong. Vaapad has a major affect on the user. Someone using Vaapad has to take themselves to the edge of falling to the dark side, which is why most of the people who have used Vaapad have fallen to the dark side, because Vaapad took them so close to the dark side that they were corroupted by it. Mace Windu was the only one who could handle it and use Vaapad without being corrupted by it. So Vaapad has a huge effect on the user, and was probably even more corruptive than Juyo. 96.240.194.236 21:43, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
 * -sigh- The reason reflecting a dark-siders power back at a user does not affect the Vapaad practioner is simply obvious - because the dark power is all being brought back against the opponant, nullifying the onslaught.

Windu the creator?
How can Mace Windu have been the creator of the form if it was used by both the exile as well as Kavar?
 * Windu created Vaapad. The exile and Kavar used Juyo. Also, please remember to sign your comment using four tidles: ( ~ ) - TopAce 11:08, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Got it - and thanks for the tip. Gustafar 10:00, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

The Unifying Force novel and Vaapad
When exactly did James Luceno confirm that Luke was using Vaapad? If Luceno really confrimed it, than shouldn't Luke Skywalker be added as a practitioner of Vaapad?--Jedi Kasra 21:30, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
 * He never did. In an interview, Luceno stated that his description of Luke's saber work was similar (and intentionally so) to the description of Vaapad. It's not a confirmed practice. Atarumaster88  Jedi_Order.svg ( Talk page ) 00:00, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
 * So the only thing missing is just the word Vaapad, but yes Luke probably was using it, and from the description, mastered it to higher level than Windu. Darth Byss 21:17, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
 * That's what they call fanon. If Luceno does not state the word "Vaapad" or "seventh form" or something like that in the novel, it's fanon. Atarumaster88  Jedi_Order.svg ( Talk page ) 22:49, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Just to remind everyone, Vaapad isn't JUST a form of Lightsabre usage, it's also a force power, so even if it was confirmed that Luke was using a Vaapad style Lightsabre technique, that doesn’t mean he's actually using the attendant force powers, (as a personal comment I don't believe Luke would ever try anything like that, it doesn’t match how his character is written). I've added a comment to this effect to the article. Guest: Darth Carl99
 * It's been removed. Do you have a source for that statement? Atarumaster88  Jedi_Order.svg ( Talk page ) 01:51, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Try the bottom part of the mental requirements part of the article and any attendant sources. It explicitly states that it's more than just a lightsabre combat form, and that it is also a force power. If somebody can give me an example of where Luke is using any force power that’s directly attributed to Vaapad, and only Vaapad, then we can claim he used it. Otherwise, (according to the rules of wookiepedia as I understand them), it's pure speculation. Using the lightsabre component, isn't the same as using Vaapad itself.

The opening stance
Shatterpoint explains that the opening stance of Vaapad is an "constant near-invisible weave of lethal energy" where the "slashes never stop" and "flow one into the next with liquid precision, whipping in curving slashes almost too fast to see." Pages 389-390. This should be included in the article, right? grobiano Wait both Mace and sids shared an opening stance in Revenge of the Sith bringing the saber level with his head with both hands holding it. Revan was shown utilizing a similar opening stance before his betrayal at the hands of Malak
 * This whole article could use some expansion, and if you're willing to write it into there using Shatterpoint and other sources, that would be welcomed and appreciated. If not, I plan on revamping the saber form articles once a certain book comes out. Atarumaster88  Jedi_Order.svg ( Talk page ) 02:26, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Ah, The Essential Guide to the Force. I'm looking forward to it, too. grobiano

Would that mean that the opening stance of Juyo is the same stance Revan went into before his betrayal? im trying to piece together how to use juyo and tranlate it to actual swordsmanship.
 * Welcome to Wookieepedia. Some quick tips for future postings: it's generally considered poor practice to restart topics on talk pages that are over two years old. Also, talk pages are for discussing the article, not for discussing the topic. Lastly, please sign your posts with four ~ (like this: ~ ). To answer your questions, the canonical opening stance for Juyo/Vaapad is more or less unknown in terms of how it physically looks. Also, there's no proof that Revan uses Juyo. And lastly, "using" saber forms with "actual swordsmanship" is impossible without a) the Force, b) years of training, c) a lightsaber usually helps. Atarumaster88  Jedi_Order.svg ( Talk page ) 15:28, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Ataru + Shien/Djem So
The article states that Form VII requires mastery of other forms and it makes reference to Ataru and Shien/Djem So. So, am I right in thinking that Juyo is a combination of these two forms as it is described as having acrobatics and powerful strikes. Also, does anyone else think that Vaapad is simply the completed version of Juyo (as it was in KOTOR 2) and not a variant/improvement. Darth Raivon 13:33, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Juyo is not a combination of Ataru and Shien/Djem So. It may use some acrobatics and powerful stikes, and there may be some simularites, but it isn't related to Ataru or Djem So. As far As Vaapad goes, I think Vaapad is both a completed version of Juyo and a variant at the same time. 72.79.223.216 14:55, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Wow, I get the impression people are really defensive about this Form. Whenever I ask a question or give a theory it is quickly cast down without debate. Regardless, what proof do you have that Juyo is not related to Forms IV and V, this articles practically screams Ataru + Shien/Djem So. The Form has acrobatics and powerful strikes, it requires the same mental conditioning that Djem So has, albeit to an extreme degree. Mastery of this form requires mastery of previous forms, Ataru and Djem So seem the most likely candidates, possibly Makashi as well. I think Juyo is a combination of these two forms in the same way that Niman is a combination of Forms I, III, IV, and V. It blends them together to create an entirely unique form, this is what I believe to be Juyo. Vaapad is Juyo plus the whole superconducting loop thing. This is my theory, prove me wrong...debate! Darth Raivon 19:31, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
 * There is no debate. No canon source says that Juyo is a combination of Djem So and Ataru. Your theory is nothing more than speculaton, and there is no canon evidence for it. Talk pages are meant to discuss changes to the article itself, not to discuss fanon theories, so there will be no debate. Wookieepedia is about facts, not speculation. 96.240.190.17 21:35, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

I wasn't actually looking to change the article in any way, I simply wanted to put forth an idea and see if anyone agreed which, as you've said, isn't what Wookieepedia is about (although you can't deny that many debates go off topic). My mistake. I shan't press the issue, in fact you can delete this entire section if you want. Darth Raivon 20:29, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

What the hell is going on ? there is only one kinda ligthsaber style- luke skywalker. I dont no why you guys are making up all this crapWhat the hell? 05:55, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Please use a spell checker, and apparently you're misinformed or just ignorant of the number of different lightsaber techniques. Atarumaster88  Jedi_Order.svg ( Talk page ) 15:05, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

I thought there was only a Luke Skywalker style, like he learned it from Obi-Wan. Well that's what my friend told me.What the hell? 18:19, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Then now you know more about lightsaber combat than your friend does. - TopAce (Talk) 18:33, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I do not think that Sidious meets the physical requirements to practition anything stemmed off of Djem So as effectively as he could practition something less physically stressing, like Makashi. I think it more likely to be Juyo=Ataru + Makashi + (.5*Soresu) + (.25*Shien) with some elements of the other forms and certain distinct techniques of its own. Until Lucasarts releases something more official, however, we'll never know, however I have a feeling I am correct. -Cjh37
 * Talk pages are not the place to discuss fan theories. Please refrain from doing so; all it does is waste time. Atarumaster88  Jedi_Order.svg ( Talk page ) 15:58, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Then delete the entire section talking about what Juyo was like, as all it is meant for is speculation. -Cjh37

You are a stiff asshole, atarumaster. Sure, it's just speculation, but you refusing to delve into any speculation just shows what a stiff douche you are. The thing about forms combination is quite reasonable, so why don't you say something like "a fair perception indeed yet still just a theoretical one" instead of dismissing everything as "disproven speculation". Of course I am not appealing to you to approve the addition of this stuff to the article, but you should refine your attitude.
 * First, I suggest you read no personal attacks. Calling someone an asshole is a personal attack, and could get you banned. Secondly, note the banner on the top of this page that says "This space is used for discussion relating to changes to the article, not for a discussion about the topic in question". Talk pages aren't for discussing thoeries or speculation. Gray Jedi 22:32, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

Form VII Unleashed?
Galen Marak (aka Starkiller) a user of form VII? I was under the impression that he used Shien (it's even in the Form V article).
 * Jedi are not restricted to simply one fighting style. Please note the reference next to his name in the list. // ~mikah~  19:15, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

vandalism
apparently I have been warned by DC because of "vandalism", removing sourced information. the sentence was duplicated, appearing twice immediately after each other. the restored sentence was removed by another user, again restored ("please stop removing sourced information"), and now once again removed. it seems some of us have got the sentence twice and some not. vandalism? come on. Silenthunter 16:39, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I think the problem was that you never explained why you removed it. Simply removing something without explanation could easily be mistaken for vandalism. If you had written an edit summary saying that it was a duplicate sentence, it would not have been mistaken for vandalism, and would not have been added back. Gray Jedi 17:21, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
 * good point, will do so in the future. Silenthunter 18:36, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Sorry. XD I was kinda sleepy when I made that edit and when I'm not really paying attention and I see a new user removing sourced information without an edit summary. . . my revert finger gets a little jumpy. 9_9 I'll try and be a little more careful, but as Gray Jedi pointed out, the edit summary really helps sleepy admins! :-P I didn't even catch that it was a duplicate sentence until Grunny removed it later and left me an edit summary telling why it was removed. I felt . . . pretty dumb. Atarumaster88  Jedi_Order.svg ( Talk page ) 20:36, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Discussion about page split
The point was raised in IRC by Graestan that this article should be split into 2 different ones, one presumably at Form VII: Juyo, and the other, at Vaapad for Windu's variant in particular. Now, here's what the sources say:

EGTTF uses Juyo when referring to Form VII and explicitly describes Vaapad as a variation of Form VII. That seems to be the most concrete justification for separating them. Fightsaber doesn't mention either by name. KotOR II refers to Form VII as Juyo, obviously, as Vaapad wasn't invented. The most recent RPG books list Windu as a practitioner of both Juyo and Vaapad, indicating a split. The SW.com version of Fightsaber refers to "Form VII: Juyo or Vaapad", seemingly indicating that it treats them as one topic. It is more recent than EGTTF, FWIW.

Another issue that might be a problem is that a number of sources (Fightsaber, both the Insider and SW.com version) refer to only Form VII generically. While, thanks to the SW.com source, we know that Juyo and Vaapad are both in the Form VII umbrella, I'm unsure of how to treat the information that only refers to Form VII generically without invoking the words Juyo or Vaapad. That said, I'm indifferent to the decision overall. With as much work as Grunny and myself put into this article, I really think this one is open to interpretation based on the sources. Atarumaster88  ( Talk page ) 04:14, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

Leave it together

 * I say keep it. IF you are gonna split this, than split Shien and Djem So, as well.--Jedi Kasra (talk) 18:21, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I'd love to. Graestan ( Talk ) 06:33, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

Separate into two articles, Form VII: Juyo, and Vaapad

 * 1) It's stated above that the EGTTF says it's a variation. That's the logic between finally splitting up the Y-wing articles after so much time. No reason not to have two articles, when things with lesser divisions have them.  Graestan ( Talk ) 04:20, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
 * 2) Nighthawk Leader 01:21, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

More discussion

 * I'm for the split, however I was wondering why the Vaapad page is going to be moved to "Vaapad" and not "Form VII: Vaapad" since it's still classified as Form VII. Thanks, Nighthawk Leader 01:21, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Vaapad's end
Since Mace Windu was the last know participant of Vaapad since Sora's death and Depa's coma, does that mean Vaapad died with him when Sidious electrocuted him? Lord KOT 03:22, November 8, 2009 (UTC)
 * This is not the right place to discuss this. Please read the Talkheader template again.  JangFett  (Talk) 03:52, November 8, 2009 (UTC)

Contradiction in description
"The form's attacks appeared to be unconnected, its motions seemingly unpolished to an untrained observer," but "A Vaapad user's attacks would flow into each other with liquid precision"; this seems blatantly contradictory. Am I missing something, or do the canon sources really conflict, and if that's the case, can we assume the Fact File got it wrong (or was possibly confusing Vaapad with the earlier Juyo), and move it to the "Behind the Scenes" section as an anomalous reference? It's also possible the Fact File is correct, and Anakin's observation in the RotJ novelization is down to him not being an "untrained observer" when he considers Mace's lightsaber-work "'an oblate sphere of purple fire' which contained dozens of blades attacking from every angle", but the weight of the rest of the description seems to back Vaapad as seamless and fluid.  tovarisch krae  coms  16:08, September 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * Don't really know if the sources are contradicting each other (though it wouldn't be the first time), but are the two sentences really contradicting? The first one says the form APPEARS to be be unconnected and unpolished, the other one says that it IS precise. What it appears to be and what it is are two different things. And I would agree that Anakin would not be counted as an "untrained observer". Just my two cents...--Lesten 00:59, September 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the feedback! My main concern was that the Fact File description seems to fit the "ungraceful", "erratic", "unconnected staccato sequences" of Juyo much better than the "liquid precision" of Vaapad.  Considering the mistaken (or retconned) interchangeability of the terms, I wondered if this was, in fact, referring to Juyo.  The contradiction is in the statements "The form's attacks appeared to be unconnected" yet "flow into each other with liquid precision".  The "untrained observer" comment applies to the motions seeming unpolished (meaning, if you don't know what he's doing, you might assume the wielder doesn't know what he's doing either), not to whether the attacks physically flow together or not.  Right?  Imperial Emblem.svg  tovarisch krae   coms  05:00, September 28, 2010 (UTC)