Talk:Palpatine/Legends

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Lucas Audio Commentary
I was listening to the audio commentary on the Revenge of the Sith DVD, and during the Mace-Palpatine duel, Lucas comments on how Palpatine was pretending to be weak - now I'm not trying to start a debate here, I have my own personal feelings regarding the matter, but what do you guys think? -Danik Kreldin 17:41, 8 March 2006 (UTC) I don't understand why some are reverting the article - George Lucas himself clearly states Palpatine was pretending. It's not a contested issue - give it up. --Danik Kreldin 20:33, 13 March 2006 (UTC) You honestly have no idea what you're talking about. Lucas specifically said Palpatine pretended to be weak. It doesn't matter if it's something he added later or not, it was still in the movie, and it's how it went down. Just because it wasn't originally going to take place like that means absolute shit. It ended up with Palpatine pretending to be weak. Just as Lucas said. Is there something you can't comprehend there? --Danik Kreldin 17:33, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, the fact that he was able to hurl lightning at Windu after his hand was cut off is pretty telling in of itself. -- SFH 20:06, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
 * So many people are dead-set convinced that Palpatine was genuinely begging for his life, though, and really was weak - so I'm seeing how they would respond to this. -Danik Kreldin 20:15, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
 * He plants the seeds of distrust of the Jedi in Anakin's mind and appears weak before him. It's all a part of Palpatine's plan. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 20:17, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, I fully agree. I knew from the start Palpatine was just playing Mace - but my point is, even today, there are still people who refuse to accept the truth, in face of volumes of evidence, and it pisses me off to no end. -Danik Kreldin 20:25, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Hey, it's their problem, not yours. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 20:27, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Plus, we know it's true. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 20:43, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeah, Palpatine wasn't weak, he was playing on Anakin's conflicted mind. The lightsaber energy mixing with the lightning may have screwed up his face, but he sure wasn't weak.
 * OMG ... u must listen correctly. Lucas said: "This scene always started out with Mace overpowering Palpatine". And, it is also said that the scene where palp pretends to lose his power was added later. The Producer on disk 2 said "They want to see who is stronger of them" (or something like that). Besides, u can read the following thread: http://forums.starwars.com/thread.jspa?threadID=207450&start=0 . There are also the facts. And there is no quote of any important star wars person who said palpatine faked the duel. instead, he lost the lightsaber duel. it's never ever being sad he faked the duel ... cause he lost.
 * I've seen a lot of quotes thrown around on this from Lucas and other people on both sides. None of them convince me absolutely one way or another. I think the article as it stands reflects that ambiguity and is NPOV. Yrfeloran 20:46, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
 * The point is, he wasn't overpowered. He wanted Anakin to think that he was weak, which he wasn't. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 20:51, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
 * For the anonymous user above: Lucas: This sequence was uh always started out with Mace overpowering Palpatine, and then Palpatine using his powers trying to destroy Mace, and Mace deflecting his rays with his lightsaber. And it was awlays was that Anakin cut the lightsaber out of his hand. But this part where he pretends to lose hisp ower and be weak was something that I added later.. Lucas's exact words. Anyone with the DVD can listen to it. --Danik Kreldin 20:53, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
 * There. Debate over. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 20:55, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Also, just a few minutes after that scene, Lucas states this in the commentary: The killing of Mace... He was trying to stop him from killing Palpatine.. which in essence was the right thing to do.. he didn't realize Palpatine was going to kill him.. Wow, Palpatine was going to kill Mace. --Danik Kreldin 20:56, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Why wouldn't he. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 20:58, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Eh, Debate is not over. There's nothing to say that Palpatine threw the lightsaber duel, only that he was pretending to be weaker than he was once he was disarmed and throwing lightning around. As opposed to the changes I was objecting to, where you say that Palpatine getting disarmed was part of his plot, and Palpatine was pretending the whole battle, which is not supported. (Lucas does say that Mace overpowers Palpatine in the same quote). The second quote is obviously saying that Anakin didn't realize that Palpatine was going to kill Mace after Anakin intervened on Palpatine's behalf. It's not saying that Palpatine was going to kill Mace anyway, only that Palpatine killed Mace once Anakin intervened and disarmed him. Yrfeloran 21:11, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
 * The way I see it, this debate is over. Lucas said it himself that he made Palpatine act and look weak. This was all a plot to make Anakin his apprentice. Maybe the fact that his lightsaber was thrown out of the window wasn't in his plot, or maybe it was. Palpatine was disarmed, which meant Anakin probably saw Windu trying to assassinate a disarmed enemy, which would not be right by any means. Then, the obviously not weak Palpatine shoots Force lightning at Windu. There's no way he was weak throughout all of that. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 22:41, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Wanna ignore George Lucas, heh? Well - fine. The debates not over. The quotes are stating this. And when u're not sure, read the thread I wrote above. (but - caution! there are more than 400 pages ... ). And, come on, even Palps cannot "forsee" that somebody would kick him in his face in the right moment. This is ridiculous! And the Producer said in a special disk 2 scene, both of them wanted to see who is stronger. And Mace won the lightsaber duel because of his incredible fighting skills. And, plz, no "palpatine plans this and that..." bla bla. Nobody can forsee everything. Example: He doesn't forsee Anakin to be in a machine, does he? After the duel with yoda, he only forsees that he's in danger. thats it.
 * Maybe so, but this was a ruse to draw Anakin over to the dark side. You have to admit that you know that. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 22:56, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
 * That's irrelevant. We're talking about the lightsaber duel. And u should know, that Palps lost it. And it makes sense. Everything makes sense; George also said: "Only Yoda and Mace can compete with the Emperor." So, what's ur problem? That he lost a lightsaber duel? Oh, come on, don't think Palps is a Darkside-God or something. He lost, but here is the clue: even if he lost, he could manage it that anakin turns to the dark side.
 * And he needed the Jedi to attack him in order to issue Order 66. He wants to be Emperor! This is his first goal; to turn anakin is second.
 * We can't reach a conclusion, so you can believe that he lost and I can believe that he didn't, but none of us can claim that "he lost, end of story" or that "he won, end of story". It is left AMBIGUOUS. So you can't say: "And u should know, that Palps lost it". --Master Starkeiller 20:20, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
 * To the anonymous user: Notice how well Palpatine fought against Fisto, Kolar, and Tiin. He easily defeated them, and they were skilled Jedi Masters. Then, Palpatine continues to fight Windu with skill, until he loses his lightsaber. Then, he's backed up again the edge of the window, and Anakin comes in. Palpatine does the "I'm weak" deal, then shoots Force lightning at Windu, which is, in turn, deflected back at him. However, this does not make Palpatine weak. After Anakin cuts off Windu's hand, Palpatine begins to fire more Sith lightning at Windu. Then, after Windu falls out throught the window, Palpatine gets up. I don't think he was actually weak. And Lucas himself stated that he later had it changed it to make Palpatine appear weaker. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 20:27, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
 * omg, lucas said: "But this part where he pretends to lose his power and be weak was something that I added later" What does this mean? Right! Before he added this part, Palpi lost, lost, lost and again, lost. So difficult to understand? Nobody of the VIPs in star wars say palpatine faked. nobody ... instead, they fought like real men. And come on, the part where he kills the so called jedi masters is bullshit. But that's another topic. lol, this could be the dumbest scene in the movie (where he kills the 3 "jedi masters").
 * It seems to me that you just have a severe case of dislike for Palpatine. Stemming from inherent Jedi fanboyism. Your opinions can't even be considered anymore because your opinions are based upon your immature fantasies of Jedi and their invincibility. I hate fanboys. Palpatine is not my favorite character - and I'm certainly no fanboy of his. But I do give credit where it's due - credit based upon fact, canon, and the Star Wars universe. Not my own personal beliefs. Just because you think Palpatine slaughtering three of the finest Jedi in a few seconds is dumb does not make it invalid, or anything else. It happened. Palpatine wiped them out. He was responsible for the collapse of the entire Jedi Order. Get over it and stop being a damn fanboy. No one likes them. --Danik Kreldin 17:10, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Hey, ur're insulting me, really. I'm NOT a fanboy; but I can understand what people like McCallum or George Lucas say. Mmmmhhh ... where is now the problem? I show the quotes and what's bad about the movie and he just insults me! that's not friendly! =(but, if u wanna ignore Lucas himself, it's ur problem, not mine.
 * The anon doesn't get it. Lucas added it, which changed the entire scene. Palpatine was pretending to be weak in the final version. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean you act like an asshole over it. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 20:08, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Ok, I'm out. Lucas said it ... but well, all I get here are insults like ass**** and so on. Wow; what a community. A really good style of speaking with others ... applause
 * That's only how we speak to the anons that keep it up and keep it up when they've been proved wrong numerous times. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 22:38, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Seems to me we'd respect him more if he actually, oh, I don't know... TOLD US HIS NAME! Anyone can hide behind anonymity and say whatever they want, but that doesn't make them right. I don't even have an alias, I use my REAL NAME! That's how much I respect my brethren here. Erik Pflueger 04:53, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Anons can be annoying. Something I adress with absolutely no subtlety here. No offence non-annoying anons (a rare breed indeed). The good admiral I consider to be our first line of defence against annoying anons.--Master Starkeiller 12:42, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
 * hey, i'm respecting anyone; but where am i proven wrong? when lucas himself said palpatine faked only his loss of power ... omg, what don't ya understand in the commentary?
 * Even the databank stating it: "The two dueled, transforming the office of politics into an arena of lightsaber combat. Windu overpowered Palpatine the instant Anakin Skywalker came running into the offices.

Skywalker witnessed a stunning sight: the Chancellor, cornered, with Windu looming over him with his lightsaber blade extended. Palpatine unleashed a torrent of Sith lightning at the Jedi Master, but Windu was able to deflect it back at the Chancellor. The evil energies twisted Palpatine's face as they flowed through him, scarring and disfiguring his once handsome features. His eyes burned yellow, his voice grew ragged and deep, and he became a well of dark side energies.

Palpatine slumped in the corner, seemingly too weak to continue the lightning assault. Fearing the Chancellor to be too powerful and too well connected, Windu decided he could not be taken alive. Before Windu could take justice into his own hands, though, Anakin sprung into action." Palpatine faked nothing but his "loss" of power.
 * Enough, already. Lucas said it himself. Lucas outranks the databank. Deal with it. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 20:31, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, at least Mr. Anonymous came to the table with some research material, I gotta admit. The problem is, there's really nothing in that bunch of Databank quotes to definitively prove or disprove what he's saying. It's far too vague. At least Lucas' own quotes point toward one conclusion or the other. But really, isn't this just the equivalent of the old kids' argument: "My dad can beat up your dad?" If you like either Windu or Palps, you can't stand the idea of the other guy overpowering your guy. We've had reasons for knock-down drag-outs on this page in the past (boy, haven't we?), but I don't see this as a reason for one now. Erik Pflueger 13:13, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
 * The point is, it's over now. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 14:36, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't care who wins, but if lucas says "the scene always started out with mace overpowering palpatine" and "but his part where he pretends to lose his power was added later" and mccallum says "they want to know who is stronger of them"(something like that), then, u're proven wrong. and with those sentences said i finish this topic once and for all
 * You don't get it, do you? Lucas is the creator of Star Wars. Lucas himself said it that Palpatine pretended to be weak was added later, therefore in the final version. Now it's over. You lose, anon. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 15:49, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
 * LOL. Nebulax is Greivous. "You lose, Jedi!"--Erl 23:26, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
 * You could say that. ;) Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 00:15, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Except you're an Admiral. Not a general. Ok, done with irrelevance now--Erl 04:28, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

-i think Palpatine was toying with Mace during their lightsaber duel, and heres why: He was disarmed not a second before Anakin came in. He pretended to be weak and out power until Anakin finally turned and tats when palps showed his true colors and killed mace like it was pie. If he was so weak, he wouldnt have been able to kill him and wouldv asked Anakin to do it for him. And also, if he was truly disarmed fair and square, he wouldv kept the fight going by hurling his lightning at mace or some other force technique. But he didnt, he rushed right for the floor and carried out his master plan. And finally, we see him stalemate Yoda in a lightsaber duel. Yoda was one of the greatest duelists in the galaxy and Palps stalemated him. And we know, Yoda was higher than mace, and more skilled, so palps didnt toy with yoda, he fought to his full ability and defeated the skilled jedi at the end. So, tats why i think palps was mearly toying with mace during their duel.-Dillion Ryan
 * I don't think "toying" is the right word for it, but you're right. Palpatine needed to look defeated to get Anakin's help. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 13:53, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Just a question, didnt it say in the novel that Palps purposely went weak to attract Anakin?
 * I think so, although I don't have the novel with me right now. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 22:00, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Defeat of Yoda
Isn't the part of this page about his abilities a contradiction of the Yoda article in which it says the duel between them ended in a stalemate because this article states that Palpatine defeated Yoda, which he did NOT. So it is a possiblity that Mace defeated Palpatine with skill not luck. Annonymous Supporter "Your arrogance blinds you Master Yoda, now you will experience the full power of the Dark Side." - Emperor Palpatine "If so powerful, why leave." - Yoda "Failed have I." "Do not underestimate the powers of the Emperor." Yoda lost because Palpatine has better footing and quick thinking, in the Senate fight. Yoda was too slow for Palpatine, when Yoda threw that Senate pod, though it does give Palpatine the "Ah S**t!" expression when he has to jump out of the way and find Yoda.
 * Sweet Buddha, not again... Cutch 23:09, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Palpatine defeated Yoda by forcing him to flee. And Mace did not defeated Palpatine. Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 23:40, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Umm.. the duel between Yoda & Palpatine was possibly a stalemate when they were struggling on the pod. But after both of them were knocked down, Yoda lost - due to lack of energy to continue the fight and being outnumbered by approaching clones. So Palpatine still defeat Yoda and forced him to retreat plus exile. In Mace's case, regardless of all the argument & debates, Mace still lost - even if he truly outsparred Sidious. Even if he truly outsparred Palp fair and square, one can say Mace merely gained the upperhand for some time in the fight. Palpatine is the victor of the battle. In both case, Palpatine was the final victor of the entire battle, regardless of his performance in certain particular time period of the battles. Darth Kevinmhk 04:11, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
 * You know, when you 're the smart sneaky guy with all the resources, the dark side, the hidden agenda and the master plan, you always win eventually. Well, until the final film that is. --Master Starkeiller 20:36, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Let's look what Yoda and Palpatine say before the fight, after and what Yoda says in Return of the Jedi
 * They both gained upperhand in different time periods during the fight. Yoda's: Surprisingly knocked Sidious across the room; outsparred Sidious on Chancellor's Podium (stated in Script + young reader); surprisingly countered pods throwing to the now-too-arrogant Sith; able to contend the lightning for some time. Sidious': knock Yoda across office; quick enough to blast Yoda away after Yoda disarm him (script + youngreader); throw pods at Yoda (before Yoda countered it); disarmed Yoda; and finally the advantage of better footing. Darth Kevinmhk 16:06, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
 * The duel was a stalemate plan and simple. After the explosion from the Force lightning they were both thrown simultaneously, Sidious managed to hold on to the pod while Yoda lost his grip and fell all the way down to the ground. Because he wasn't an impulsive imbecile, he chose to retreat because he'd have been at a disadvantage at that point because Sidious had the high ground. So Yoda did NOT lose, he withdrew from combat. Commander Black
 * By fleeing, he lost. Yoda, the Grand Jedi Master, could have just grabbed his lightsaber and kept on going by getting onto another Senate pod. Yoda truly did not have to flee&mdash;he didn't have anything else to do, right? He could have stayed there all day and fought. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 13:27, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
 * In my mind, if you don't achieve the objective you want in a fight, then by definition you lose. Yoda went there to kill Palpatine. Period. And he had a limited window of time to do it in if he wanted to get out of there alive. He could have gone in expecting to die, but who would preserve the Jedi traditions for another day? Kenobi? He might not have made it, either. Palpatine had to die and Yoda had to live. And the fight went in a way that spent Yoda's one chance at doing it. True, Jack, he could have found his blade and gone back to work on it, but the stormtroopers were coming, and if he died, so much for the future of the order. So that was it; he'd shot his wad and it didn't work. Palpatine remained un-killed. Therefore, he lost and Palpatine won, though as the young adult novelization says (I'll add the page number when I get home from work [Edit: it's page 169, for those of you who are curious]), it was a very near thing. But at least he got out alive, to eventually train the Jedi that would set things right. So he didn't lose entirely. But by definition, he lost the fight. Erik Pflueger 20:08, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Yoda could have taken out those shock troopers, though. After all, he took on all those clones at the Jedi Temple. I mean, how many shock troopers were there? A handful? Yoda could have quickly killed them and then continue on with Palpatine. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 20:52, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
 * In truth all points are valid to some degree, in the end though I think ill have to conceed and side with Erik on this that by DEFINITION Yoda did fail in his mission constituting a loss, but as far as skill to skill goes between the Dark Lord of the Sith and the Grand Master of the Jedi, neither won...also Palpatine's failure to KILL Yoda meant he neither achieved his goal of eradicating ALL the Jedi...which obviously became a problem in the future :P Commander Black
 * Objective of Palpatine: Clearly, he just wanna survive the day to rule his empire, if Yoda died, so much the better. Objective of Yoda: Destroy Palpatine to take back the Republic and safeguard the remaining Jedi - If he & Ben both succeed, then the Force is with them; if he succeed and Ben failed, well then Vader was on his Next Kill list; if Ben succeed and Yoda died, then it's a nightmare, Ben could never defeat Palpy in a fight, and Yoda would have no chance to teach Ben about Jiin.... Apart from getting out alive and teaching Ben, Yoda failed his objective. Although Yoda's survival ensure the victory of the light 20 years later, he lost his duel. Palpy win the duel, Yoda won the war. Yoda could risk everything and stay behind, but he duno how is Ben going, and he already lost his lightsaber. Even though clones are nothing compared to a Grand Master, the distraction casued by the clones could open a chance for Palpy to launch a death blow. Darth Kevinmhk 02:41, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
 * "Yoda could have taken out those shock troopers, though. After all, he took on all those clones at the Jedi Temple. I mean, how many shock troopers were there? A handful? Yoda could have quickly killed them and then continue on with Palpatine." But he couldn't, Jack. Find his saber and jump all the way back there again, when he was already tired and there was no way of knowing just how many troops Palpatine could summon? The longer he stayed, the more troops might have shown up, and the less chance he had of getting out of there alive. Why take the chance? Remember, it wasn't just killing Palpatine that was Yoda's objective, it was getting out alive afterward. He had a responsibility to the future of the Jedi Order. He couldn't waste himself by hanging around just to get another shot. He'd had his shot, and botched it. He'd screwed the pooch. Trying again and getting yourself into a trap would have been tactically foolish, extremely so. Erik Pflueger 03:49, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
 * True, Yoda didn't know how many, but he didn't know how many there would be in the Jedi Temple, correct? Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 13:52, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
 * He didn't know how many, but again, Jack, why take the chance? If the future of the Order depends on you living long enough to ensure that future, you cannot take a chance that there'll be too many troops for you to get out. Period. As for he and Kenobi penetrating the Jedi Temple, the objective was quite different. Get in, recalibrate the beacon, get intell on what happened, and get out. They took on one clone patrol to get past the door the clones were guarding, concealed the bodies to prolong the time they had before their presence was known so that the clones wouldn't be actively looking for them and making their job harder, then ducked their way past any other clones they came near. Then they got what they wanted and snuck out. But the moment you attack the chief of state of the government, and that chief's adjutant left the room, it's another ball game.

Yoda showed up in Palpatine's office prepared to do some damage, and Palps sent Mas Amedda away. If I'm Yoda, then I know that means Amedda's off to get help of the clone kind, and I have no choice but to assume there'll be a LOT of help. Security will be on full alert. It means I have only one shot at this, and if I fail, then I have to beat it. I'm a very powerful Jedi Master, but the events of the past day or so have pretty conclusively proved that being a powerful Jedi isn't a bulletproof vest. I have to destroy the Sith Lord if I can, but I have to restore the Jedi, no ifs, ands or buts. I CANNOT RISK DYING OVER THIS. I cannot assume that no matter how many stormtroopers appear, I can take them AND get Palpatine. I cannot take the chance that the Jedi will die with me. And I cannot even assume that Kenobi will succeed on Mustafar and pick up where I leave off. He could die, too, and then it's all down the crapper. So I have to save myself. Based on that dynamic, once Yoda failed to kill Sidious, the jig was up, and HE HAD TO LEAVE. And that's that. Erik Pflueger 23:35, 27 June 2006 (UTC) And when you don't know, you should always err on the side of caution. That's all I'm saying! :) Erik Pflueger 00:44, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
 * "If the future of the Order depends on you living long enough to ensure that future, you cannot take a chance that there'll be too many troops for you to get out". One could say the same thing about their mission in the Jedi Temple. All I'm saying is that for both cases, Yoda's objective was to try to save as much of the Jedi Order as possible. He didn't know how many enemies he was going up against or what. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 00:11, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Okay, the point is Yoda lost. I don't think we need to keep this up anymore. ;) Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 00:49, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
 * True, Jack, too true. But oh boy, a good debate's pretty fun, isn't it? Erik Pflueger 00:52, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
 * You bet. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 12:49, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Palpatine beat Yoda because he has superior Force Powers. But in the lightsaber dueling portion of the fight, Palpatine was out of practice with a Lightsaber. His use of Ataru might have been effective, but it was no match for Yoda's mastery of it. So he simply switched to what he did best, casting Force Lightning and throwing things.
 * Palpatine was out of practice with a lightsaber?! Hell no. He had defeated three Jedi Masters in a few seconds. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 13:51, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Palpatine defeated the first 3 Jedi Masters using Dark Rage and Force Speed, not lightsaber skills. In a prolonged battle, he is out of practice. He probably hadn't touched his lightsaber for decades.
 * Yet he still used his lightsaber to defeat Kolar, Fisto, and Tiin. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 14:14, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
 * But he killed them with the most basic possible moves. I have no sword training whatsoever and I could do the same moves. His only edge was the Force Speed and the Dark Rage.
 * They helped him defeat them quickly. I have no doubt that he could have still defeated them with a bit more time. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 22:03, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
 * OK, he was a skilled duelist in his day, but he hadn't touched his lightsaber for decades. It had been hidden in that Neuranium wall panel in his office for all that time. So he may have been skilled but was still out of practise and hopeless against highly skilled and practiced duelists like Yoda and Windu. (I enjoy this debate, I am user:Darth Vatrir. I hope it continues.)
 * Come on, Palpy could just comm Dooku and ask him to lend him a lightsaber for practice! (A joke, but the point is he could practice despite hiding his personal lightsaber) Furthermore, there is no pure swordplay in the world, especially for Force-users. Every single style of the seven forms involve the application of the Force and Force skills. A pure swordfight would ground Yoda at once, he would not be able to even move. And it was proved that despite eveything, Sidious survived Mace and Yoda, while one of them died, another retreat. Darth Kevinmhk 02:16, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Palpatine defeated Windu because Anakin Skywalker interfered. He defeated Yoda, as I have pointed out by using his Force Powers, which where far superior. And even with the Force, your skill with a lightsaber can still diminish if you don't use it for long periods.
 * If Yoda could slain Palpatine with his lightsaber, he could and would have done so before Palpatine switch to Force battle. Yoda failed to do so shows the mastery of Palpatine's swordplay. Darth Kevinmhk 03:13, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
 * And where, may I ask, does it say that Palpatine never touched his lightsaber until the Duel in the Chancellor's Office? Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 14:07, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
 * To Darth Kevinmhk, Yoda disarmed Palpatine on the Chancellors pod. But before he could deliver the killing blow, Palpatine leapt away. user:Darth Vatrir
 * To Fleet Admiral Nebulax, logically speaking, Palpatine couldn't touch his lightsaber without revealing he had one. Someone would probably notice the big burn hole in his Neuranium sculpture. Oh, stop contradicting me, Fleet Admiral. user:Darth Vatrir
 * Palpatine had more than one lightsaber, in case you didn't notice. Therefore, I'm not "contradicting" you. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 21:25, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
 * One lightsaber, two lightsaber, it doesn't matter. With his 'hide in plain-sight' tactic, he can't touch any of them without revealing them. And this has gone way beyond the theory that Palpatine was out of practice with his lightsaber. user:Darth Vatrir
 * he could of touched one of his sabers...he had others, and whose to say anyone who had seen his saber before lived to tell the tale? Jedi Dude 21:32, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Saying that he didn't touch his lightsaber until that duel is speculation. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 21:37, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
 * and god knows how i hate speculation... haha. these silly conversations on talk pages make me laugh. speculation leads to some crazy arguments. 'confrentations' rather Jedi Dude 21:39, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
 * And of course, we don't want speculation on talk pages. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 21:47, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

-In my opinion, Palpatine was indeed a great lightsaber duelist. After all, he defeated three experienced jedi masters in just a few seconds. He managed to stalemate Yoda, one of the greatest jedi masters ever to live in a lightsaber duel (Only George Lucas is the person who can tell us what happened to Palps lightsaber, and he hasnt, and the books and junior novelizations always tend to change certain scenes after the movie to make it more interesting. So since Lucas nor the movie has told us what happened, for all we know Palpatine simply put his saber away to start a force duel). And then, not six years later, Palpatine owned Luke Skywalker in a lightsaber duel and also disarmed Leia when she herself tried to engage in combat. So, he was IN practice with his saber skills. - Dillion Ryan
 * Well, one could say that Palpatine had a lot of training in the years after Endor but before he reappeared, but I think Palpatine was well-trained from the beginning. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 13:53, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I think that Palpatine was setting up the fight with Mace just so Anakin could come in and save him. Palpatine could see into the future so he most likely saw this coming.--67.87.81.98 22:25, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, I think it's pretty obvious that Palpatine looked defeated to turn Anakin to the dark side. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 22:27, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Palpatine's black hair trim conflicts with red hair in Episode I
Has anyone else noticed that in Episode III, Palpatine has a rim of black hair near the base of his neck. In Episode I he has no trace of black hair. I first noticed the black hair just prior to the deformed Palpatine putting on his cloak, I thought it was because the hair was singed by the lightning, but then I noticed it earlier on in the movie. Was this a goof or is there an explanation?
 * Not necessarily. In Episode II, there's more blackish hair coming up about halfway. Upon closer inspection, it's actually gray, and probably a brownish-gray. It looks like Palpatine's (probably Ian's as well) hair color was fleeing towards the back as the white invaded.

Either way, I think red-brown is Ian McDiarmid's natural hair color. Or at least was.
 * Well, the image with Palpatine with red hair is set before Episodes II and III, and I don't think there's any black hair in that image. So, either something happened to his hair between Episodes I and II or he dyed it. Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 10:56, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Palpatine's hair started out a brilliant red when he was a young man, but Dark Side corruption steadily darkened it as he got older. In Episode 1, his hair was a burgundy color. So it can be assumed that had his hair not gone white with age, it would have darkened to black at that point.
 * I don't think the dark side had anything to do with it. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 14:14, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Number 1, why not? Number 2, Fleet Admiral, you have just contradicted another user:Darth Vatrir theory. GOD DAMN YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!
 * Oh my God, I "contradicted" something you said again. Not everything you say is canon, Darth Vatrir, and it sure isn't nice to say "Screw off" and "God damn you" to people, no matter who it is. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 14:07, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I blend canon with personal speculation, so I can believe whatever the hell I want. Besides, most of my theories are plausible if not true. I apologize for the rudeness but being contradicted over and over and over again is incredibly annoying.user:Darth Vatrir
 * Darth Vatrir, you can say and believe whatever you want, but make sure you know that canon plus speculation does not equal canon and that speculation isn't allowed on talk pages. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 21:25, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I give up...user:Darth Vatrir
 * Ok, now that I have spent a little while calming down, back to this theory. It has been pretty firmly established that the Dark Side of the Force does affect your appearance. So if it changes your eye and skin pigment, why won't it change your hair color? user:Darth Vatrir I rest my case...
 * Because it's not sourced. And please don't restart old topics. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 16:41, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Sorry to press this, but how else could his hair have darkened. I seriously doubt he dyed it,otherwise he would have a full head of black hair. And hair doesn't darken like that naturally, so Dark Side corruption is really the only plausible explanation. user:Darth Vatrir
 * To you, perhaps. How do we know for sure that he didn't dye it, or that something else caused it? Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 22:31, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't think he dyed it because he was trying to appear to the galaxy as a humble polition, and dyeing your hair implies vanity. Humbleness and vanity don't work togethor at all. And what else could have caused it accept Dark Side corruption. Please be specific... user:Darth Vatrir
 * It could be anything, because we don't know for sure. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 22:16, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Ummmm...WHO CARES!?!
 * It appears that some of us do, so don't say anything like that again. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 19:54, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Did Palpatine have a lightsaber available in Return of the Jedi?
After seeing Episode III, I doubt that Palpatine was "unarmed" as he said he was. Is there any recent information that indicates that he was armed with a lightsaber or were is force powers so great that he had no need for one?
 * I would generally be surprised if Palpatine didn't have one somewhere in his robes, but no, there is no official information on whether he had a lightsaber with him at the time. -- SFH 04:18, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
 * No source has stated whether he got a lightsaber on DS2... but i too agree that he actually had one. (But that would make him stupid, coz once Vader grab him, he should use the blade to slice off Vader's arm - i observe that move can still perform, especially for a masterful swordsman like Plapy) Darth Kevinmhk 10:02, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Palpatine was probably too overconfident to have one with him while both Skywalkers were there, but I assume he had one in his quarters. Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 11:05, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Having a lightsaber in your belt would still make you "weaponless," in tge sense that you don't activate it and will be unable to defend yourself. I, too, think that Palpatine had one. - TopAce 11:08, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
 * The question is, however, where was it if he had it? Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 11:11, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Maybe it was in his sleeve. So when Vader lift him up, the hilt fall backward and physically not reachable by palms. Or maybe Palpy was so so so surprised by the betrayal of Vader that he knew nothing other than continue his blasts. Darth Kevinmhk 14:01, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Of course, now that I think about it, even if he did have a lightsaber with him, he might have wanted to die so that the Rebellion would seem victorious, and Palpatine would later come back and fool the entire Alliance. We have to remember that Sidious had a big plan before 19 BBY, so this could have been another one. Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 19:11, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
 * He's always the man with a plan, Jack, but the thing is, I know of no other plan that he had in mind other than 1.) convert Luke, 2.) make Luke kill Vader, 3.) go right on expanding his power, only with a new and more powerful apprentice, one with most of his flesh intact and not so Cajun-cooked.

It's not that he wanted to die for any reason, it's just - according to Dark Empire - he had the clone thing as a fallback. And it ain't necessarily the case that he expected to need that fallback. If he had, he would have brought a clone with him to the Death Star and, a few minutes after the old Palpatine was turned into chunky salsa at the bottom of the shaft, a young Palpatine - probably packing a saber - would have come in the throne room and - let's be honest, folks - he'd have pasted Luke. I mean, it's not like Luke had a prayer against Palpatine doing all those spinning moves, right? Now, if I find anything that tells me different, I'll let you all know, but I really don't see any benefit to his plans if he dies, even temporarily. In fact, all that does is cheese him off.

Now, as to whether he was packing a blade in ROTJ: my guess is, he wasn't too old to use one - his cane was just for show, not because he needed it, so he could have still busted some moves with a blade - so if he HAD one on his person, in his robes, he would have used it if he needed to. But did he need to? When it comes to Luke, he probably figured the purple lightning would've done the trick by itself, but when Vader grabbed him, he sure needed it then, and he's quick enough that he could have gotten to it - IF it was there. So it probably wasn't on his person. But I have a hard time thinking he didn't at least have one in his private quarters. There's no backup for my opinions, in the EU or anything else, it's just my feelings. And remember, source trumps feeling, always. Erik Pflueger 04:32, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Of course. Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 11:20, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
 * My personal guess would be that he had one concealed in his throne (consider that he would likely be aware of Amidala's blasters in TPM - if he didn't know before, he would have probably learned after from either Amidala or Gunray) and thus couldn't reach it after he stood up. Which indicates either overconfidence or him getting carried away with the lightning. Either way, an unusual oversight for such a cunning man, but much less so than not bringing a sabre to the fight at all. No sources back this up though, so the whole discussion is kind of pointless.
 * Please don't post in the middle of discussions like that. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 14:12, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

After all, what would happen if his lightning didnt work, what would he do? surrender? i dont think so. Hed slide down his ol saber and engage in a lightsaber duel. But he figured he wouldnt have to use it because he had Vader. And if anybody, including Luke, tried to engage him in combat, hed just have Vader do it for him. But im sure palps had a saber on him in DS2 JUST IN CASE.- Dillion Ryan
 * Knowing Palps, he probably DID have a saber on him in death star 2.
 * Of course, we don't know that for sure. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 23:37, 12 August 2006 (UTC)


 * But we do know this for sure, if Vader or Luke engaged palps in a lightsaber duel, theyd have their ass handed to em on a silver platter.
 * Probably, but still, it's speculation. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 13:52, 13 August 2006 (UTC)


 * yep, the force was with Luke that day, and Palps was old, but yep its all just speculation Jedi Dude 13:54, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
 * While Palpatine was old, he was still the Sith Master and more experience than Luke. But let's end this discussion until we have proof that Palpatine had a lightsaber on the second Death Star. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 13:56, 13 August 2006 (UTC)


 * As for the main question, with all the strong Jedi gone and the relatively inexperienced Luke Skywalker, I now think Palpatine may have arrogantly believed he no longer needed a saber as he had achieved the ultimate power in the Galaxy and that Vader was badly injured at Mustafar.
 * Could be, but still, it's all speculation. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 13:07, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

I just want to remind everyone that in the Star Wars The Empire At War game, Palpatine fought in a few battles in which used his lightsaber. So I assume htat during the battle of Endor, he must of had a lightsaber but I agree that he probably did not had it with him on the Death Star but rather in his quaters.

Narrative tone
This article reads with more of a narrative tone than an encyclopedic one. Is that intentional? --P3d0 21:28, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, because Erik is very creative. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 00:12, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I like it, it's like a real biography. Jachra 09:50, 12 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Please don't restart old topics, unless there's something important to the discussion needing to be discussed. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 13:53, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
 * What old topics? What do you mean? --P3d0 23:18, 3 September 2006 (UTC)


 * This was an old topic before Jachra posted on it. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 23:20, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Palpatine as Antichrist?
I was watching a history channel special on the antichrist (I don't know if anyone else has seen it or not) but as I watched it I got the sense that Palpatine could be an antichrist type figure in the Star Wars universe. He was a solitary, charismatic person who lead and unified during a time of crisis promising peace and prosperity and was heralded as a savior, of course as his rule grew longer he became less amiable and more sinister as his rule solidified and eventually lead to a time of tribulation until eventually being destroyed (this was how the concept of Antichrist was defined by the History Channel). Of course the idea being that the antichrist would eventually be defeated by Christ and Palpatine was destroyed by Anakin who was The Chosen One. So I was just curious if anyone thought it would be worthwhile to add to the 'behind the scenes' section. I figure I should note that I don't purport to see Star Wars as a religious allegory or anything, this was just an observation that I felt was valid and thought it might have a place in the 'behind the scenes' section.-Jadden Sinn 05:22, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
 * That should be added. It does seem like Palpatine was the Antichrist of Star Wars. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 13:41, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
 * All right, I added it to the "Behind the Scenes" section at the end just above the "Original Version" section, I think it fits well there but if someone wants to double check in case it might fit better some where else. I'm still a little new at the whole wiki thing. Thanks.-Jadden Sinn 20:44, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
 * It looks good there. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 22:40, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I really love this concept. I don't recall Jadden Sinn having contributed to this article before, but if so, then he struck gold right out of the gate. I shall see if there are any ways to flesh it out some. My sole nitpick - and it is just that - is for my friend Jack: I noticed you changed the "A" in Antichrist to a lowercase "a". Respectfully, I submit that I have never seen a rendition of that term in any book I've ever read - biblical or otherwise - where the "A" was not capitalized. Rather than change it, though, I wanted to give you a chance to give your opinion. You're the traffic cop on this page, after all. ;) Erik Pflueger 02:49, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Ha ha, thanks for the compliment I appreciate it. And as for the capitalization issue I honestly don't know why I changed it because Antichrist should be a proper noun, I probably just missed it as I was typing, I'll change it back as that's how I believe it probably should be.-Jadden Sinn 03:19, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, I wasn't exactly sure about whether it was capitalized or not, but I guess I should have since I'm Catholic. ;) Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 13:44, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Did Sidious stalemate Yoda in lightsaber duel?

 * After watching the movie and reading the novel, my conclusion is that the lightsaber duel between Yoda and sidious was a stalemate. We see both contestants show fight hard and show their skills. We see the sabers clash many times, and yet neither combatent is able to overpower the other. The last we see of the lightsaber duel is the two blades interlocking. Palps probably realized tat if he kept going with sabers, they would be there ALL DAY. And tats why the next time we see him, he has put his saber away and started a force duel, to end it quickly. Tats my opinion.- Dillion Ryan
 * It's already been decided (under "Defeat of Yoda") that Yoda was defeated because he retreated. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 23:37, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Palpatine's death by Anakin - Plagueis' Revenge?
I know that the issue of whether Anakin was conceived by Palgueis is still in contention. But supposing that he was and that Plagueis anticipated a threat by Sidious, Anakin could have been designed to get rid of Sidious similar to the fate of Dooku. I think that Anakin was a ticking time bomb on Palpatine, which Palpatine had to spend the rest of his life trying to diffuse. Plageuis may have in effect created the Chosen One in consequence of his own fear of losing power which he, like all Sith refuse to lose, to be the time bomb which would activate if Palpatine ever killed him. Palpatine's death could have been Plageuis' most twisted revenge, to give Palpatine the most terrifying destruction which all Sith fear, to fall (in part literally) from the absolute power to destruction.
 * Please keep speculation off of talk pages. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 18:49, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Cos Dashit
I know this has been discussed backwards and forwards for the past seven years, but Here is my spin: We know that Padme Naberrie [sp?] was given the name Amidala when she was elected Queen of Naboo, and that she has used this name for the rest of her time in service to Naboo. In Cloak of Deception, it is said that Palpatine had once served as King of Naboo. We know that it is the tradition of the Naboo to give these names (without apparent definition) to their leaders. In GL's early writings the Emperor was known as Cos Dashit.

Therefore: Palpatine can very well go by the names Cos Dashit, or Cos Palpatine (like Padme Amidala, though improper), in adition to Palpatine and Sidious.

At the very least, stop calling him Frank! For the Love of the Force!

Prometheus 17:18, 28 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Cos Palpatine is Supershadow fanon. Cos Dashit is the original name for Palpatine, indeed, but without any canonical source, we cannot consider Palpatine's name as "Cos Dashit." Even though there may be some truth in what you say, it cannot be added to the article, only if it were a common speculation. - TopAce 17:28, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Damn SuperIdiot. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 19:36, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Palpatine, the king of Naboo? Wha-wha-whaaaaaat? If there were anything in Cloak of Deception that even suggested that Palpatine had actually served as the elected monarch of Naboo, I would have remembered it, and added it already. If Prometheus is saying this, then he'd better be prepared to cite the exact quote and page number, or else I'll be forced to conclude, regrettably, that he doesn't know what he's talking about. Erik Pflueger 21:50, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Oops, must have skipped over that part that Prometheus wrote about him being king of Naboo. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 22:29, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I prepared to read an interesting debate until I find out he mentioned Palpy as King of Naboo, then I know I would be disappointed. Darth Kevinmhk 04:38, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Right now, Frank still looks like a better first name for him. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 11:15, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Personally, I'd like to call him "TV's Frank Palpatine" ;) In the not-too-distant future... Erik Pflueger 01:26, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Maybe even the Plagueis novel will have his name. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 11:18, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Near the End of Cloak of Deception, Valorum and Palpatine are discussing what will happen now that King Veruna is dead. Valorum asked Palpatine if there was any possibility of him being recalled. I am unable to give the precise page as the book is being lent to a friend in the cause of converting more to the way of the Force. If I have misinterpretted this part of the book, I will welcome the cited page and quoted area in question.

We can only hope that James Luceno can answer our questions. Okay, for sheer kicks and giggles, I've used what Mr. Anonymous told us and tracked down the quotes he mentioned. They're from Cloak of Deception, all right (p. 287-288 of the hardcover edition). Palpatine and Orn Free Taa are in discussion just prior to the conference on Eriadu, and Taa notes that Palpatine seems preoccupied. Palpatine answers that he had just heard that King Veruna has abdicated the throne (he has not been assassinated yet), that there will be an acting regent until elections are held, and that he doesn't know who is in the running to replace Veruna (he's probably lying there).
 * Please do not post in the middle of a topic. And "being recalled" doesn't mean he was King. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 19:45, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Taa asks Palpatine if he is in danger of being recalled, and he answers, "That remains to be seen." The reason Taa asks is most likely because Luceno is assuming that an off-world representative of Naboo is appointed by, and serves at the pleasure of, Naboo's monarch, so when that monarch finishes his term, one way or another, then those who represent him may also have to wind up their affairs and finish their service. Luceno had good reason to assume this; quite a few monarchies work this way. It was only established in the last year or so, in the Star Wars: Republic comics, that Palpatine was in fact elected as a Senator himself, after Vidar Kim was assassinated.

Because of this inconsistency, we can't know what Palpatine had on his hands when Veruna stepped down. No one at LFL has rectified the inconsistency. We can only speculate. Perhaps, once a new monarch was elected, he or she had the option to call for a new election for Senator, in which case Palpatine would either have been replaced or reelected. In the end, Amidala was elected, and while it is established that Palpatine returned home for her coronation (Episode I Visual Dictionary, p. 62), there is no indication anywhere that he had to stand for a new election. So this all may be just completely incorrect speculation on my part. But at least I'm telling you up front.

In any case, nothing that was said in the book means that Palpatine ever served as a monarch himself. What we have been dealing with here, for days now, is exactly what happens when someone makes public claims here based on information half-remembered or delivered second-hand. I say again, as I always have, that if someone wants to add something, he or she had better be prepared to back it up with the exact title and page number. And there'll be a hundred others like myself prepared to check it. If they can't confirm it, they should wait to confirm it before writing it up here, and if they're just guessing, they should tell us they're just guessing. Erik Pflueger 05:41, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Interesting theory, Erik. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if you were right. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 14:17, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Really? Frankly, I thought you'd be chiding me for being too hard on the guy (and yes, I was, but you can't solve a problem by treating it with kid gloves). By the way, how do you get it so that there's a logo next to your name whenever you sign? That's really cool. :) Erik Pflueger 14:59, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
 * It's in one of the archives of my talk page... Let me look. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 15:04, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Here it is: User talk:Jack Nebulax Archive 4. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 15:06, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the assist, Jack. And that's good as a topic palate-cleanser as any I could think of... Erik Pflueger [[Image:Galactic_Republic.JPG|20px]] 15:32, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Force hover

 * I notice when I was playing as Palpatine in Battlefront II that his feet don't touch the ground or move unless he's crouching. This isn't cannon, is it? I was thinking the developers did this because it was difficult to animate the cloth around his legs or something like that.--Darth OblivionComlink[[Image:Oldsith.jpg|20px]] 16:11, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
 * It's not been shown anywhere, but if his apprentice Tyranus could float to the ground using the Force, and if other, lesser Force-users could levitate things, then Sidious has to be able to do this. I haven't played Battlefront II, so I can't speak personally to what you've been experiencing. I can't believe that the game designers couldn't animate the cloth around his legs, when they animate all sorts of things that to me seem more difficult. So, while it's not specifically canon (and it's canon with one "N", by the way - a cannon with two "N"s is something you blow people away with), it's really hard to believe that someone as powerful as Sidious couldn't use the Force to hover, float, or lift himself. Erik Pflueger [[Image:Galactic_Republic.JPG|20px]] 19:09, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Probably just another way Battlefront II goes against canon. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 19:55, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
 * well it does appear in Visionaries.
 * Visionaries is mainly non-canon. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 19:54, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Portrayal
There must be some way that we can have the two pics in the portrayal section side-by-side without them cutting the sentence apart. Sentences that are cut apart by a pic look fairly unprofessional, in my opinion, but I also understand the rationale of having them side by side. There must be a way to do it without splitting the text. - Angel Blue 451 01:04, 15 September 2006 (UTC) How so? I thought it made it look better. The text wasn't split anymore. - Angel Blue 451 00:58, 20 September 2006 (UTC) You mean in the code, or in the article itself? Was it between the two pics or between the pics and the text? (I didn't see a white space on my monitor, so forgive my questions.) - Angel Blue 451 16:55, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
 * That's probably the only way, I'm afraid. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 11:15, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Did it. - Angel Blue 451 18:35, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I've tried shrinking the one image. The "  s" did no good for me. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 20:17, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
 * You mean the text was still split on your monitor?-Angel Blue 451 23:03, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
 * No, but it made that section look really bad. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 00:14, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
 * It created a very large and ugly white space. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 11:30, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
 * In the article, between the pictures. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 20:25, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Luke vs. Sidious rematch! (One-on-one, Luke gets no help from ANYBODY)

 * Well since its one one-on-one, ill break it down to this:

1)Saber duel 2)Force duel 3)Force and saber duel

And since Luke gets no help from Leia, ill say this:

Saber duel: Sidious, Force duel: Sidious, Saber and force duel: Sidious VIA

Thats for damn sure. -Dillion Ryan
 * ...what are you talking about? -- SFH 22:58, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
 * hes simluating a duel, sorry anon no one cares, this isn't the place for it, try a forum on another site Jedi Dude 23:04, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Wookieepedia is not about who you think would win a duel, anon. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 02:40, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Sidious' lightsaber after his duel with Yoda
In "Dark Lord The Rise of Darth Vader", although noncanoical and some of its information has been proved wrong, said that Sidious allowed Vader to use his lightsaber for a model. That would mean that Sidious kept his black saber after his duel. But this information is noncanoical, should we believe it??
 * How is Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader non-canonical? -- I need a name 22:52, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeah, Dark Lord isn't non-canonical. Some of its information may be contradicted by other sources, but that doesn't make one source non-canon. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 00:15, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Since that lightsaber was itself a backup of the one Sidious lost during his duel with Mace, it's not unlikely he keeps spares, so this doesn't really prove he kept his saber after the Yoda battle. Of course, if it wasn't destroyed, Thire's shock troops would likely have found it - Kwenn 18:25, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
 * True. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 18:34, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Sidious' swordsmanship

 * In my opinion, for his time, Sidious was one of the greatest fencers we ever get to see. And heres why: He bested Darth Maul in two saber duels (They were actually tests to see if Maul was prepared to become a sith, but still were duels), he took down three trained jedi masters in under five seconds, and he managed to stalemate Yoda in a vicious saber duel on the senate podium. So, during the time of the Old republic and the galactic Empire, Sidious was ONE of the greatist fencers in the galaxy. Yoda, being the grandmaster of the jedi order, rivaled Sidious in terms of swordsmanship, and thats why neither were THE greatist. However, both surpassed anybody else and became damn near unbeatable for their times.
 * While I agree, please keep opinions off of talk pages. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 16:03, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

A link needs to be changed
Since I can't edit this page, I just wanted an admin to know that the link Glory needs to be changed to Glory. Thanks. Reignfire 17:02, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Done. But why can't you edit the page? Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 20:13, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks. To me the article page is protected, probably because my account is too new. Reignfire 23:38, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Are you sure? I wasn't aware that articles could be protected against only new users.--Darth OblivionComlink[[Image:Oldsith.png|30px]] 23:52, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
 * It's possible, but the articles are usually tagged as such. -LtNOWIS 23:56, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, it says only registered users can edit it. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 23:57, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I am genuinely sorry that Reignfire had a problem, but believe me, we had so many problems from anons before this new policy was enacted that I would never consider changing it back. What happened to Reignfire may be the exception, not the rule, and perhaps any user who is registered can still edit. Perhaps if he tries again, he'll have better luck. I hope he does. But better the occasional fluke than some jackass named 68.233.748.3632 saying that Palpatine did his mother in a pink Porsche. They write that kind of stuff, ya know. Erik Pflueger [[Image:Galactic_Republic.JPG|20px]] 00:39, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
 * So Wookieepedia does have semi-protection. Is the article semi-protected or not? If so, it should be tagged as such.--Darth OblivionComlink[[Image:Oldsith.png|30px]] 01:05, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I think I read somewhere that when a certain protection is enabled, new users are blocked to help against vandalism. Unfortunately, I don't remember where this was, so I can't check what the time length is. This doesn't bother me though since the only change I wanted to make has been done. Reignfire 01:21, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia's policy, which I assume is the same as Wookieepedia's, states that a new user cannot edit a semi-protected article until 4 days after joining.--Darth OblivionComlink[[Image:Oldsith.png|30px]] 01:26, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Ah. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 11:31, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

The greatest, best-thought-out, most complex part of Star Wars&hellip;
&hellip;is Palpatine's whole rise to power, isn't it? Reading it here in one place really solidifes how all the EU materials come together to form the tapestry of a perfectly executed plan. This is the main source of depth in the prequels, and I feel like a lot of prequel-haters don't see this brilliance. Viva Wookieepedia! Cutch 07:08, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Yep, i agree although you do need to keep opinions off these pages thanks! Jedi Dude 08:46, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree, too. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 11:16, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree also... don't act so shocked. ;) Erik Pflueger [[Image:Galactic_Republic.JPG|20px]] 14:54, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
 * But, as Jedi Dude said, this isn't the place for it. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 20:39, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
 * . Cutch 05:16, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Sorry, Cutch. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 11:14, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Did Sidious still carry a saber after ROTS?

 * Did Sidious still see the need to pack a saber?? Its obvious that he did not lose it. He chucked it after his saber duel with Yoda to achieve the high ground, and later had it returned to him. He even allowed Vader to use it as a model to create his own weapon. But, after he declared himself emperor, did he see the need to still keep one hidden up his sleeve??
 * I suspect so. -  Angel Blue 451 [[Image:Jedi_Order.jpg|20px]](Holonet) 16:08, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
 * This has already been discussed in one of the archives. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 19:31, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Defeat of Darth Maul

 * In the comics, we see that Sidious enters and beats Darth Maul in two saber duels. However, he had some trouble in the second. Did he actually plan on Darth Maul going pyscho, and if he did, did he plan on Maul beating him??

-How the hell is Maul gonna beat Sidious. Sidious rivals Yoda, the greatest swordsman in the galaxy, in terms of saber combat. And he was also able to defeat three of the best councils warriors in under five seconds. So, how is Maul gonna be a threat to him?-Dillion Ryan
 * Why does it sound like you're talking as two different people? Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 19:31, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't know, but neither of them make sense to me. Erik Pflueger [[Image:Galactic_Republic.JPG|20px]] 02:24, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I think the anon actually meant to make it sound like two people. I don't know why, though. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 14:50, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
 * As to the question, it's all about context. OK, so Force-User A has more raw power than Force-User B. Big deal, as Anakin "Crispy" Skywalker would testify. No fighter is at his or her peak 100% of the time, so it's entirely feasible that Maul may have given Sidious a challenge on that occasion, but not necessarily on every occasion - Kwenn 14:53, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
 * True. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 14:56, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Palpatine and Tarkin

 * Its no doubt that Palpatine trusted grand moff Tarkin. He trusted him with information regarding Vaders past as well as other things. But did he trust him enough to reveal his true identity, as Darth Sidious to Tarkin??
 * Who knows. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 18:22, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
 * It's not really a matter of trust is it? I mean, by the year 0 BBY/ABY the galaxy has realised the Empire for what it is, not what it was in the wake of the Clone Wars. One could say that if the galaxy knew the Emperor was a Sith Lord then even more people would rebel aginst him, but i doubt it. So it wouldn't really matter if Tarkin knew Vader and Sidious were Sith Lords. Jasca Ducato Sith Council (Sith campaign) 19:51, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Or would it? There were some Moffs who tried to remove Vader and Palpatine from their positions because they were Sith Lords. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 21:25, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Palpatine beat Yoda?
Excuse my ignorance, but didn't Palpatine duel Yoda to a draw? Because a user just changed it to say he could beat Yoda in combat. Sorry if you guys were in the middle of a discussion. Master 76 Holodisk Mind TrickJedi Library
 * Still, please do not remove topics. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 11:13, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

I noticed in the abilities and traits section of this article it states that Sidious defeated Yoda in lightsaber combat. We know that the entire fight along with the lightsaber duel was a draw, because Yoda and Sidious are essentially Yin and Yang. The only part of the battle that Yoda failed in was that he did not accomplish his goal of killing the dark lord. Can I get an okay to make that sentence say that Sidious equaled Yoda in lightsaber combat rather than saying he defeated him? which of course he didn't, thank you.--Stardust6000 23:37, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
 * No. This has been discussed numerous times, and it has been decided that Yoda was defeated. End of story. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 23:43, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
 * See, Stardust? Everyone feels this way. So don't make your gripe personal with me. Cutch 04:58, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
 * If he makes a personal attack, you might need to inform the administrators. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 11:21, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Oh my God, do we have to keep coming back to this topic every other month? The movie was released more than a year and a half ago, and people are still caught up in the juvenille question of "Who Won?" Is everyone so worked up about defending Yoda's abilities as a swordsman - as if he needed anybody to get his back - that they have to represent all over this Wiki? "My dad can beat up your dad?" Come on, let's all just grow up. Erik Pflueger [[Image:Galactic_Republic.JPG|20px]] 22:14, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Agreed. This has been settled, and unless an official source says it's a draw, it will be interpreted as a defeat.  Besides, even if Yoda didn't "lose" in the way people often mean when speaking of duels, he sure didn't win either. -  Angel Blue  (Holonet) 22:29, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Exactly. But he did admit defeat when he said, "Failed, I have." Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 22:46, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I look at how you keep getting these "promotions" of yours, Jack, and I admit defeat... ;) Erik Pflueger [[Image:Galactic_Republic.JPG|20px]] 00:29, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, next step is Executor Nebulax... ;) Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 00:33, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
 * You're bucking to be Emperor soon, aren't you? Tell the truth... Erik Pflueger [[Image:Galactic_Republic.JPG|20px]] 04:05, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

NPOV
This article is ripe with POV, which goes against our policies. Examples: "When angered, Sidious was a frightening sight to behold and an overpowering opponent." "A diabolical genius [...]). Furthermore, the article's quotes need to be cleaned up to comply with the MoS (excessive links and such). --Imp 00:45, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
 * If you mean links in the main article and not quotes, yes. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 00:46, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
 * "Redundant internal links should not be added to quotes because they serve little purpose beyond making the quotes appear cluttered and messy. Links should only be added to quotes if they contain that article's ONLY mention of that particular concept, but even then, it is be better to integrate the internal link into the body of the article's text. Piped links should be avoided as much as possible. If the context of the quote is not readily apparent, it is best to add appropriate information to the quote attribution field of the quote template rather than adding piped links to ambiguous pronouns such as "you", "he", or "they"."

- Manual of Style --Imp 00:47, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
 * The reason I said that was because I'm currently working on the quotes. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 00:52, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm no big fan of a hundred-gillion links either. Please do continue, Jack. As for the NPOV, that's another thing we've had discussion after discussion over, and have definitively answered. At this point, I'd rather just go back to the "Palpatine didn't really beat Yoda" argument. Erik Pflueger [[Image:Galactic_Republic.JPG|20px]] 04:09, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Imp, for the record, the article has been filled with POVs for a long time. Even though some questioned it, it never changed. I personally think this article is better this way. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 13:24, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately that conflicts with policy, and will have to be changed. --Imp 15:17, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I disagree. Too often we here sacrifice good writing just so things can be NPOV. Palpatine was a genius. I've read history books that say Hitler was a genius. Neither were good people, but the fact that someone can be brilliant is indeed a fact. Cutch 18:16, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Policies > interesting prose. --Imp 18:18, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
 * But you've got to admit that if someone's brilliant&mdash;or a "diabolical genius"&mdash;that's not POV, it's a true statement of their abilities. And, if this article does have to be rewritten, I would seriously prefer that it be Erik who rewrites it. He has a sense of what it means to be a good writer. Cutch 18:24, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
 * That may be, but this article is far to big to be rewrote by just one person, its an interesting choice though, policy or a genuinely good piece of writing? Jedi Dude 18:26, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Erik wrote most of it. He therefore has the ability and familiarity with the article to rewrite most of it. Cutch 18:29, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Exactly. Imp, you might want to leave the changes to Erik. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 19:11, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I have done extensive work on this (grammar revisions) for extra credit for school so i would also be happy to do it.  Ugluk: Destroyer of Redlinks Whine Here 21:12, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Of course. When I said "leave the changes to Erik", I didn't mean just him. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 23:21, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure what's bothering Imp, since I didn't even write "diabolical genius." I consider that too cliche. And if Imp's raising the need for changes, what changes exactly? If I, Ugluk or anyone else is going to do anything for Imp, I need to know just what he has a problem with, no generalized "I just think it's NPOV." I need specific examples, down to the paragraph. I can accomodate Imp and still keep the style intact, but Imp needs to help me do so. If he does, I can make both sides happy. And, Ugluk, how does one get extra school credit for working here, anyway? It's sure different from how I used to get it. :) And thanks to Cutch and Supreme Air Marshal Jack ;) for the props. Erik Pflueger [[Image:Galactic_Republic.JPG|20px]] 03:40, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
 * First of all, how did you get extra credit Eric? hehe. secondly, my english teacher is a super star wars fanboy and he gives extra credit for correcting grammar/spelling from articles and posts at TFN.  Ugluk: Destroyer of Redlinks Whine Here 03:43, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

How did I get it? The usual methods: extra book reports, assisting with the projector, cleaning the blackboards... you know, dorky stuff. ;) None of my teachers appreciated the sublime literary qualities of Star Wars. I'm going to guess that you show him the edit history to show him where you corrected, am I right? Erik Pflueger  04:02, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I agree that we need more specific examples of what to fix. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 14:57, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Until Imp decides to provide those specific examples, I would like to remove the NPOV bar above the article. What say you? Erik Pflueger [[Image:Galactic_Republic.JPG|20px]] 02:24, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Aye, Erik. Cutch 04:57, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Definitely a good move. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 11:25, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Ars Dangor quotes
What's the source for the Ars Dangor quotes in "The same event in different languages" section? I ask because there are a few typos there, but I wanted to check them against the original source to make sure it that it's not how they appear there. -- Ozzel 04:34, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Best to ask Erik on his talk page. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 11:17, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Thank you for asking, Ozzel. They both came from the Imperial Sourcebook, second edition (p. 44-45). But don't worry about the typos, I just took care of those. Erik Pflueger [[Image:Galactic_Republic.JPG|20px]] 21:05, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Excellent. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 00:18, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Cool, thanks. Glad you fixed it, because I don't have that one anyway (unfortunately). I went ahead and added to the sources list. -- Ozzel 05:06, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Needs culling
Waay to long, and disproportionate - there are some sections that are far too lengthy, and some that are far too short. . .  .  .  03:24, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
 * This has been discussed before, and the result was keep it as is. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 13:54, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Hmm, well, the result was just plain wrong. This is an encyclopedia, not an opportunity for ambitious young writers to re-interpret popular culture in a storybook fashion. Have you even read the whole article, through? .  .  .  .  12:14, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
 * It's also not a forum for blowhards to insult other Wookieepedians they don't happen to agree with, as if his/her opinion had more weight then anyone else's. As for the disproportionate-ness, I'll freely acknowledge that, but it's because the article's not finished yet. Have you considered that possibility? Or have you not read the full article? I can assure you that Jack Nebulax has, many times, and anyone who's been here long enough to know what he does every day should know that full well. Consider that before you talk down to him, because he deserves better than that kind of treatment.

I don't get the logic of saying we're "too long" when every other Star Wars resource on the Web - including the official Databank - is far too short, and here we have the opportunity to be all-inclusive and yet there are people who just want to pass that up! If that's a flaw, and I think it is, shouldn't we try to be different from the others, not just like them? In any case, if a significant majority has come out on record liking the way things are done here - and they have, on multiple occasions - then it's not "just plain wrong." They shot down the "too long" argument long ago, and they decided that what we do here is well within the parameters of what this encyclopedia is supposed to provide. You can disagree with my work, if that's what you choose, but you'd best accept that fact.

And anyway, I'm 34. I'm not that young... ;) Erik Pflueger  14:22, 16 October 2006 (UTC) Otherwise, it's fantastic, but those little niggles need to be adressed.  .  .  .  .  01:12, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Sorry, FourDot, I'm siding with Erik and Neb. The article's fine; why's everyone attacking it? Cutch 15:49, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
 * The article is long, yes, but it's a hell of a lot better than a short one. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 20:30, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Size matters not. Look, it's an excellent article, but things like the Canna Omonda section are just plain too long for something as inconsequential as that. .  .  .  .  23:45, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
 * And again, I object. I see nothing wrong with having plenty of information. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 01:13, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Plenty is one thing, but this article - it's overkill. It should be a detailed summary, not a blow-by-blow account. .  .  .  .  07:13, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
 * And that's your opinion. Now, in my opinion, there is no such thing as having too much information on an article, or, as you put it, overkill. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 13:30, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I think that this article really is the nirvana every Wookieepedia article should strive towards. Cutch 22:11, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 00:06, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
 * God help us and save us. .  .  .  .  01:47, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Thefourdotelipsis, was that post at all necessary? Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 14:06, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Nah, it wasn't. What are you gonna do about it, huh? .  .  .  .  23:28, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
 * You need to stop it. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 23:29, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Fine, I'll get right back on topic, since you just can't hack it, Jack. I'm sure that you would ban me in a flash, had you the power (thank god you don't). This article is a great article, I'll give it that, but there are one or two things that need to be cut down. The minor things, that are really irrelevant to Palpatine's story. Because what we have here is an article that tells us everything that he does in every source. Even if it's next to nothing. I'm suprised it doesn't describe how he does a little speech at the start of TIE Fighter. It just need trimming, that's all, and then, we will have an article that all others should strive to. The Canna Omonda section needs to be condensed, for a start. .  .  .  .  23:42, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
 * (Ignoring your first two sentences). How do you propose "trimming" the Canna Omonda section? Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 23:44, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Make it one section, for a start. Secondly, let's give it a bit more of an encyclopedic tone (I personally won't touch it...it'll either disrupt the prose flow or get reverted) We need to do away with things like Were they Rebels? Possibly. It sticks out like a sore thumb. And whilst it is a fascinating section, it does little to further the biography. It's like a summary for the source of the whole Canna Omonda thing. And a lot of it is speculation, from my point of view. In reality, it should be something like "In such and such ABY, Palpatine had Canna Omonda, Mon Mothma's successor as Senator of Chandrila arrested and executed in private". Obviously, that's not as compelling story wise as what's there, but it's more encyclopedic. Biographies of Albert Einstien in encyclopedias do not speculate, not take the tone of an obsever, they merely chronicle his life, which is what we should be doing here. The Canna Omonda section is but one amongst many that needs trimming. All the groundwork is here, the article just needs fine-tuning. .  .  .  .  23:53, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I suppose you're right. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 00:24, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
 * : 0 Are you sure? .  .  .  .  00:27, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Don't tell me this is more of your sarcasm. Of course I'm sure. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 00:29, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
 * No...no, this isn't sarcasm...I was bracing myself for another flat out "No.", but this...this is unprecedented. .  .  .  .  00:32, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
 * You have a good point. I'd just like to know how you plan on having this done. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 00:34, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Thefourdotelipsis, I would like to point out that there have been several votes over the past year to trim the article down. They've failed. -- SFH 00:41, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Sorry, SFH, I already said that. ;) Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 00:42, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
 * There were several attempts to kill Hitler that failed, but he's dead, isn't he? Anyway, I would reccomend finding whoever is the greatest contributer to this article, and get him to "trim" sections like the Canna Omonda section down to just shy of a bare minimum like I suggested. .  .  .  .  00:54, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Round and round we go. As we mentioned earlier, it's Erik. Cutch 01:50, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Oh, right, sorry. Well, he should just peruse back through the article and trim, and make more...encyclopedic. Because at the moment it reads like an Essay. "Conclusions" is the most telling part. .  .  .  .  04:38, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Then why don't you suggest to Erik what should be done and let him take care of it? Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 19:30, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, I kinda don't like to tell people what to do, but if he comes here he can read what I've said and act on it, if he wants. .  .  .  .  22:40, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
 * First you need to say specifically what you think needs to be changed. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 22:43, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Ugh, that means reading the whole darn thing again. Hang on, I'll skim it and give a rough guide of what needs to be condensed.
 * 1) Outbound Flight. Make it one section, and shorter too.
 * 2) The assassination attempts on Senator Padmé Amidala is really not needed - I understand that AOTC content is needed, but it's obviously going to be less than TPM and ROTS, as he has far less screen time.
 * 3) The Seti Ashgad and Bail Organa sections could be put under a generic heading and condensed.
 * 4) As I have said, the Canna Omonda section needs a severe trimming.
 * 5) Bevel Lemlisk doesn't really have a huge bearing on the bio.
 * 6) The reactions to Thrawn's campaign is really making a mountain out of a molehill. Make a slight mention at the intro to the Dark Empire section, and do away with the rest.
 * 7) Make it more encycopedic. Space Conclusions, and remove little rhetorical questions like Was he lying to himself? Or did he know things that Vader and Skywalker did not?. It reads like an essay, not an encyclopedia summary of a man's life.
 * Now I have to disagree. I've looked over those sections, and I think they're fine. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 11:13, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
 * That's fine, I don't have the time nor the energy to try and convince you. .  .  .  .  11:14, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, as said above, it's been decided not to make this shorter, so I guess there's no point to this any more. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 11:16, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Believe it or not, Jack, the list above wasn't for your benefit. .  .  .  .  11:18, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
 * And I know that. Knock it off, Thefourdotelipsis. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 11:22, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
 * What? I'm posting a legit complaint about this article, intended for the primrary contributors. If you don't like it Jack, fine, but you don't own Wookieepedia. .  .  .  .  11:24, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I know damn well I don't own Wookieepedia. It's your atitude toward me that's the problem. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 11:26, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
 * No, I don't think you do. And what attitude? I just listed my problems, and I was going to leave it at that, but "No way, there's no conversation that Jack Nebulax can leave untouched", so you decided to state that you didn't like it. All power to you, but it didn't warrant a post. .  .  .  .  11:29, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
 * That's the atitude shared by the numerous people who hate me. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 11:31, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Hate? No, my dear Grand Admiral, you hardly warrant hate. You're just....eh....it's hard to describe what you are....to use a Star Wars analogy, your epitaph would read "He did what he thought was right" .  .  .  .  11:38, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Alright you two... Cutch 14:05, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I'm getting tired of it, too. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 20:21, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I've got no problem, I'm just trying to put foward my point of view as to what should happen to this article.... .  .  .  .  22:56, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I suppose numbers 1, 3, and 4 of your suggestions could work. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 23:58, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I suppose I was a little harsh about 2, 5, and 6, but they really do need condensing, if not removal. And 7 is the biggest niggle of all - it's nice, but in no way shape or form does that style of writing belong in an encyclopedia. .  .  .  .  06:30, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Right now, I don't think anything needs to be removed. As for the Conclusions section, I think it's actually pretty good. Maybe unencyclopedic, but definitely good. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 11:16, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, maybe you're right, not removed, but definetly condensed. And as for Conclusions, I sympathise - it's very, very good, but it has no place here, in an encyclopedia. .  .  .  .  12:12, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Anyone ever feel like things are sometimes taken too seriously around here? Cutch 13:31, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Thefourdot, I have to disagree. I think the Conclusions section deserves to be here. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 20:12, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I have to admit, it is tough to say this, but regardless of whether it's like or not, it really has to go if we want it to be both a FA, and for this site to have "pedia" on the end of it. .  .  .  .  23:07, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, I think you're the first so far to actually have a problem with it. Everyone else seems content with it, which is why I think we should keep it. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 23:09, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
 * True, and this is a democracy - however, we still style ourselves as an encyclopedia. When I was writing Richard III (1955 film) over at Wikipedia, I learnt the hard way about what's encyclopedic and what's not. Just look at the FA processess I had to go through. I understand that we're not Wikipedia, but we are an encyclopedia, not an archive of essays. .  .  .  .  23:18, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Encyclopedia or not, I still say it should remain. In the end, it comes down to the fact that this is a site anyone can edit. By being that, we're not really much of an encyclopedia. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 23:52, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia is a perfectly acceptable encyclopedia, and so is this. Anyone can edit, true, but the edits should be in aid of an encyclopedia status, not against it. .  .  .  .  00:13, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
 * You know, it's just you two posting here, with me popping in every now-and-then&hellip;I think that's a pretty strong indication that no one really cares about "culling" the article. Cutch 01:09, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't care about who cares, all I care about is people caring for this place's encyclopedia status. Have a care, Cutch. .  .  .  .  02:17, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
 * And actually, you're the only one who wants to remove the Conclusions section, Thefourdot. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 11:08, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
 * That doesn't worry me one bit, nor does it shake my view. I am trying to defend common sense - what is right, over what is good. .  .  .  .  11:22, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

I think I may be the only person on Earth (or one of the only two or three people) who thinks this article still needs expansion. -- Darth Culator  (Talk) 13:22, 26 October 2006 (UTC) I'm back, folks. I want to apologize to everyone for my week-long absence; I had to go to Pennsylvania to attend the wedding of the person who brought my fiancee and I together (we'll be married in three weeks!), and the house in which we were staying had no computer, let alone an internet connection. I also want to thank Jack Nebulax specifically for standing up and getting my back in my absence. In doing so, he proved what I knew already; he's a friend of the first rank. My thanks also to the rest of you - Cutch, Darth Culator and Jedi Dude - for standing with Jack, and Jaina Solo, just for trying to keep things reasonable.
 * Its those little things, that really do make it so much better, it shows detail and to be honest you saying the past discussion is irevlevent is rubbish, just because you weren't a part of it doesn't make it invalid im afraid. And its only your view that is right, and besides I still think there could be even more aded :P Jedi Dude 13:26, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree. With novels being announced every so often, more information on Palpatine will be revealed. No need to shorten it now before it becomes long again. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 19:55, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Agreed.Cutch 00:10, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Now that that's out of the way, it comes down to this: Should the Conclusions section be removed? Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 00:11, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
 * 1) No. Cutch 04:31, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
 * 2) If we want to keep calling ourselves an encyclopedia, yes.  .  .  .  .  06:32, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I also mentioned in my initial post that the article is disproporiante - I understand that new content will come this way, and that it will always be large, but some sections are just too big, which I've outlined above (we've got two whole sections on bloody Canna Omonda, but...oh, yeah, he went to Bothawui and destroyed a whole town. Just as a footnote, really). Yes, it will need expansion, but in order to stop it spiraling out of control, we need to excercise some trimming on the larger sections. .  .  .  .  06:36, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
 * 1) I also say not to remove the Conclusions section. 2) Thefourdot, you're the only one who wants to do that. No one else is siding with you on the matter. Therefore, neither of your suggestions will likely happen. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 22:53, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I mean if you really want it then make a vote page on the senate hall, but it won't change anything, were known for this article, and thats a good thing. Jedi Dude 23:29, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I might just do that. You may have noticed: I'm not easily discouraged when I think something is right. .  .  .  .  00:03, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
 * That's not at all a good thing. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 01:14, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Why, Jack? It never stopped you. .  .  .  .  01:46, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Here we go again&hellip;Cutch 07:05, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Alright, alright, I've no desire to start up another dogfight with Nebulax. But this issue is not a matter of consensus. It is a matter of what is correct. Encyclopedia articles do not have "conclusions". So either it goes, or the little message on out main page saying "a Star Wars encyclopedia that anyone can edit", and should be replaced by "a repository for Star Wars fans to write essays on their favourite characters." .  .  .  .  07:13, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Thefourdot, once again, you're the only one who wants this. No one has ever said before you that the Conclusions section of this article ruined our status as an encyclopedia. My point is, no one else cares. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 13:47, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Oh, goody, that means I can delete it. .  .  .  .  23:41, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
 * No. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 00:50, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Why? If you don't care about defending it, don't cry when it's gone. .  .  .  .  01:00, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I am defending it. You're the only one who wants it removed. Therefore, it's not going to be removed. Drop it. I'm not in the mood to argue further with you. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 01:02, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
 * So far, you've not come up with one tangible arguement for keeping it, other than "we like it". .  .  .  .  01:04, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
 * And so far, you're the only one who wants to remove it. Seeing as you obviously don't read my previous comments, I'll say it again until you get the idea. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 01:11, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Please don't turn this into another edit war. Jaina Solo ( Goddess Stuff ) [[Image:Jainasolosig.gif |25px]] 01:13, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, if Thefourdot removes the Conclusions section, then I'll just re-add it. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 01:15, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm still waiting for a good argument as to why it should stay. .  .  .  .  01:16, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Though I agree with Thefourdotelipsis that the article is waaaay too long, the conclusions section should stay as it is relevant to Palps' history and legacy. Jaina Solo ( Goddess Stuff ) [[Image:Jainasolosig.gif |25px]] 01:18, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Tell, you what, I'll propose a happy medium - dump "Conclusions" somewhere into the Personality and Traits section, tweak it a little, and I'll leave it alone. But in no way shape or form does it have a place in the summary of his life. .  .  .  .  01:21, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Why not leave it where it is and "tweak it a little"? Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 01:25, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Because it is not suitable content for an encyclopedia biography. However, in the end notes, in that variety of sections, it would fit quite well. .  .  .  .  02:23, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Now, to business. Because FourDot, unlike anyone else who criticized this article and what I do for it, listed specific examples he felt needed to be changed - and I thank him for putting in the time and effort - I intend to address him on these specific examples. In the order you posed them:

1.) Since 1991, Palpatine's involvement in the loss of Outbound Flight has been the subject of much speculation and debate, which took nearly fifteen years to answer. What Palpatine did from a distance on Coruscant and Roxuli, and what his agent Doriana did on site with Thrawn, has now been explained, and it is legitimate grist for this discussion. His machinations resulted in the deaths of a dozen or more Jedi and how many civilian passengers? For that reason alone, it deserves as much space as any one of his other individual schemes. As of now, it takes up two subsections. The first I intend to leave as is. The second, I concede, could be trimmed some without sacrificing any of its intent or style.

2.) The material relating to the various hits on Amidala were not written by me. I agree with you totally that they need to be rewritten, with a greater focus on what Palpatine did or did not do. The points to focus on are: A.) what was Palpatine's involvement in Amidala's hits, and if he didn't really want her dead, as clearly he didn't, why did he allow Tyranus to contract Fett to do them? In this, a certain amount of speculation will be necessary: he didn't so much want her dead as out of the way when the militarization vote was held, and when emergency powers came up, and the threat of an assassination would do that, force her into hiding. B.) While Anakin was watching Padme, the focus should not be so much on what happened, as how Palpatine learned about it and how those events - like killing a bunch of Tuskens, for example - impacted and played into Palpatine's long-term plans for Anakin. Remember, just because Palps isn't on screen for much of this, don't assume his hand isn't at work in everything in AOTC, just as it is on everything in the saga.

3.) Ashgad's disappearance has been crying out for a full explanation since it was first mentioned in 1997. What I came up with incorporated every disparate fact about it - all canon - and made it make sense from Palpatine's point of view, while covering all the questions that could be raised about why it happened, and about why he was exiled but not just killed. There is little, if anything, that can be cut from it without compromising it beyond help. It is a specific incident and should not be condensed under a generalized theme of "how Palps knocked off his rivals." The Bail Organa part should be left untouched for the same reason: they're both separate incidents that just happened to occur close to each other.

4.) Canna Omonda's terrible fate is supposed to speak for many others, since it is clear that Palpatine acted against many other Senators much as he did with Omonda. She, unfortunately, is the only one we have specific and detailed facts on, thanks to the Star Wars Adventure Journals. The intended effect is to show what happens to dissidents in the New Order at its height, and it says a lot about both Palpatine and the machine he created. I am willing, however, to concede that the description regarding the Fete Week celebrations could be cut down significantly and the part about Omonda's execution would still work. It would reduce it by two, perhaps three paragraphs and reduce the topic from two subsections to just one. That, I think should satisfy you regarding that issue.

5.) Bevel Lemelisk's story, again, says something about Palpatine's character, his vindictiveness, his cruelty, and that he could indulge in such traits practically on a whim. This is life in Palpatine's Empire. In fact, Lemelisk will probably have to be mentioned again, as the development of Death Star II - which began here in this subsection - progresses, and Palpatine's plans for it, his great climactic scheme in ROTJ, come closer to pass. I could trim a word here or there, but what would be the point? It will have to be expanded on anyway.

6.) I could cut a sentence or two out of the Thrawn subsection, but it is vital that it be kept in in general. The purpose of this material, as developed by Michael Allen Horne for the Dark Empire Sourcebook, is to reconcile two parts of the Expanded Universe that happen right next to each other on the timeline but are radically different from each other. If Thrawn is fighting and winning, and Palpatine is alive and well in the Deep Core and massing his own forces, why didn't Thrawn know? Why didn't Palps tell him? Why didn't they team up and knock that stupid New Republic out? The Thrawn books and the Dark Empire comics were written independently of each other - scrutiny of the EU was looser then - and as a result, this discrepancy has to be explained. To answer all the questions that discrepancy raises requires more than "a slight mention." I can do away with some words, some sentences, but that is all I'm prepared to give.

7.) Now I'll take a different tack: Yes, the Conclusions section could work just as well after the appendices as it does after the article proper. I wrote it to sum up all the fundamental points of the article, to put a bow on it, so to speak. It could still do so where you propose to move it. I would personally prefer it stay in the spot I chose for it, but yes, I suppose I could live with moving it south a tinge. If the majority agrees to do so, I will move it without protest. I could even see where it could benefit from a tweak, as you call it. Regardless of the need to move it, I will look into trimming it some. Sound good?

And now, some general comments. FourDot, I listened to your criticisms carefully, and, I hope, provided an explanation for my thinking and, in some areas, conceded some of your points. I've heard your opinion; now I want you to hear mine. Jack is correct: the only person raising this issue is you. Jedi Solo has stepped in strictly in the name of maintaining order, but I don't think that implies agreement with you. Despite that, I looked through every section you mentioned, seriously considered what you had to say, and offered ways to meet you in the middle. I hope you understand the importance of that. But understand this: I can't and won't meet you halfway on the fundamental disagreement we have. I believe what I have done is proper for this format, and you don't.

I'll explain my fundamental philosophy again: Wookieepedia may very well be the one place where all Star Wars information can be brought together without regard for file size restrictions. If people want brevity, there are any one of a hundred sites to go to, including the official site's Database. I've been there; it's just not enough. Why stay beholden to the belief that encyclopedia articles have to be brief? Just because they were brief in their original bookbound incarnations? There, one had to consider the expense of paper, of binding, of pricing a set so high it couldn't be sold. This is the internet age, and those rules and considerations no longer apply, not to the Wiki format. Somebody has to provide an alternative to that approach, and if not us, then who? We gather all the information that is out there, make sure it is all canon, and if it is contradictory, we acknowledge and account for it. That's all. That's not writing fan essays, it's not overkill; it's being responsible. It's offering a choice. It's appreciating the rich continuity that has been developed for this universe over thirty years. To degrade this as fan-indulgence is to degrade all that.

And finally, remember that, as you acknowledged, information is still coming in. This article, and this entire Wiki, will only get bigger, not smaller. That's just the nature of the Beast. I will continue to do what I do here. Those that have disagreed with that approach in the past have raised their contrary opinion, as is their right, asked for a vote, as is their right, and been defeated in numerous successive legitimate votes. Even people who disagreed with the approach have changed their minds after careful consideration and without any prompting or pressure from me or anyone else. I have made concessions to you, including the one that most bothered you, as I'm sure you'll acknowledge, and I will keep my promise and execute those consessions over the coming week. I am happy to do so, since I would rather make you happy than not. I'll even lose some of the rhetorical questions you didn't like. But my fundamental approach will remain the same.

You have said: You may have noticed: I'm not easily discouraged when I think something is right. Please remember that others feel the exact same way, and will fight just as hard for the other side. You can be certain that I will, because I really do believe that this approach is right. I believe in myself, my work, and the ideals of this Wookieepedia. If I don't defend those ideals, what value do they really have? If you respect my opinion as I have tried to show respect to yours, please understand that.

I look forward to talking with you again. Best wishes, and God bless. Erik Pflueger  07:30, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
 * First of all Erik, thank you. Thank you for making your case in a coherent fashion, and backing up your points with exposition, and a proper explanation, instead of falling back on a purely subjective and childlike "I like it, and others do too." I am willing to concede on many, if not most of your points.

1) I agree with you, Outbound Flight has been the source of much anticipation in the EU since Zahn's superb Thrawn trilogy. I remember myself thinking "What the hell is an Outbound Flight?" But levels of anticpation should not have a bearing on an encyclopedia article - it should be indifferent. Though Palpatine's involvement with Outbound Flight is major, it's bearing on the overall flow of his story is minor in comparison to, say, Imperialisation. I still believe that both sections could be put under a single heading and trimmed, if ever so slightly, but if you feel strongly about it, I will concede the point.

2) Yes, I thought that the AOTC section stuck out like a sore thumb. And I understand that Palpatine still had a major impact on those events, though it is less than say, his TPM influence.

3) Once again, anticpation should not have a bearing on encyclopedia entries, but I'm happy to have two seperate sections if you really think the article needs it. But they still do need trimming.

4) Thank you. That was a major problem.

5) Lemlisk, I will concede, however, I'll adress one of the problems you raised later.

6) I am fully aware of the Thrawn Trilogy vs Dark Empire battle that occured during the early 90's....in fact, the problems with that are apparent even now. The New Republic saves itself from Thrawn, only to come close to being wiped out by a clone of Palpatine the next year? Han and Leia are having another child? But anyway, I understand that the discrepancy needs to be adressed, but once again, trimming is needed.

7) Thank you for seeing things my way.

As for the rhetorical questions, their removal is an absolute must. They have no tangible place in an encyclopedia article, and in fact, those were the most telling signs towards the overall "essay" tone of the article. But with their removal, and a subsequent "tweaking" to the sentences surrounding them, I'm sure that this article will be in tip-top condition.

And I will say this - though this is an encyclopedia that anyone can edit, when an article gets to this size, it eventually becomes someone's. The prose is so embedded, that any new contributions by an alien user stick out like a sore thumb. A case in point would be the Empire at War content. From that, I can assume that you, Erik, have not played Empire at War, because it covers a pretty damn significant event (Palpatine wipes out a whole city on Bothawui by himself), and yet it is little more than a footnote in this article. I can again assume (I may be wrong) that you have never played TIE Fighter, which depicts Palpatine being kidnapped by Zaarin. It also features him expressing keen intrest in both Vader and Thrawn's campaigns post 3 ABY. And yet the mention of it in this article is miniscule in comparison to, as I have mentioned, Canna Omonda.

That leads to a disproportionate article, and ultimately, leaves the onus on the primrary contributor to do, well, all of the editing. It also leaves the onus on that contributor to keep up to date with all of the sources possible, and update accordingly. This is potentially damaging to Wookiepedia, both in the sense that anyone can edit, and in the sense that it is supposed to be accessible to all types of fans. I fear that this article panders to only the most die-hard, adult fans, and that a casual or young fan would find it near impossible to read. Another example of this problem is Zsinj. You can't just read a select section, because the article is already so deep in the prose, that you are immediately lost. As I mentioned to Jack, I learnt all of this the hard way when I was writing Richard III (1955 film) on Wikipedia - just look at the FA processes I had to go through, and that article was just a stub when I came across it.

As I have mentioned before, it's a fantastic article, but these problems are all that stand in the way of it being the best article on Wookiepedia. And, quite frankly, I find the arguement of it's going to have to be expanded anyway to be complete rubbish. If we take that attitude, the article will spiral out of control. The reason that I am advocating this culling is so that when we have to expand for new content, we will have a good platform to expand on, but we won't end up writing something that will rival an unabridged Bible for length. I completely agree - we should not be bound by the limitations of a print encyclopedia, but we should also exercise moderation where it's due. And it's due here. . .  .  .  23:25, 29 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Ladies and gentlebeings, FourDot has asked me the following in regards to what he names "The Great Palpatine Debate": Are we still going on that? Or do you consider it officialy closed? I'm still good to talk, but if you think it's settled, that's fine. Well, I must first say that when one considers the ferocity of some debates about this very subject, this one wasn't that great. It was good, but not "great."

Let me start by saying that I think we all need to give FourDot a significant amount of credit. Early on in this discussion, his attitude to some, especially to my best friend here, Jack Nebulax, was not the best. To be blunt, he was rude and snippy. He has since, however, turned around by 180 degrees and exhibited with me and mine a great attitude, as good as I have any right to expect from a fellow Wookieepedian. He did not argue; he discussed. He did not shout; he reasoned. He matured a lot in a short time. In his dealings with me, he has been in every way a model Wookieepedian.

Just to tie up a few loose ends, FourDot, you are correct: I have not played either TIE Fighter or Empire at War, though I have the strategy guide for the former. The reason is that video games are a touchy thing in terms of continuity. Sometimes they fit in nicely, and other times (in fact, more often than not) they outright contradict long-established continuity. It may be a prejudice from a decade in the past, when these games were playing a lot more fast and loose with the canon than they may be doing now. Hell, the sheer mechanics of a video game can play havoc with continuity. In the X-Wing games, Luke doesn't make the killer shot into the Death Star; some yutz named Keyan Farlander does, or something like that. In the Shadows of the Empire game, Vader doesn't blow away Xizor's skyhook; Dash Rendar does, and by the way, Rendar dies in the books but lives in the game. Confusing, isnt it? The last thing I expected after Exar Kun was defeated in the comics is for Knights of the Old Republic to tell me the Sith came back right away with Darth Revan. And if that game can't outright tell me what gender the Exile is, can I trust it on anything else?

I often have to wait until events or characters from a game are referenced in some other media form, like a book or comic, to accept them as canon. When the comics confirmed that Rendar lived, I relaxed. When Farlander was brought into the NJO books and became a celebrated hero, I laid off him. When KOTOR became a comic and began establishing connections to the TOTJ comics that made more sense, I accepted it. Get me? And anyway, didn't they decide the Exile was a chick? Or am I wrong? And as people began referencing Palpatine's kidnapping by Zaarin in other material, that's long since become canon and it WILL be discussed in more detail than now. Bank on it.

In any case, just because I don't put video game references in doesn't mean that references to games Palps is featured in can't be added into the article. Someone can always put Empire at War info in, with as much detail as they want; in fact, the more the better. If they need to be smoothed over to match the style of the rest of the article, we'll do a little tweaking. If they're under-represented when set against other parts of the article, one has to remember that this is still a work in progress, and it will take time to get it all. Count on the fact that when we're all done, everyone's favorite bit will be added in and represented fairly. Someone will put it in even if I don't.

Which leads me to the next argument: Yes, it is true that this article is probably more for the die-hards than for the casual reader. Well, truth to tell, that's partially by design. It goes back to something I said before: other sites and sources, including the official Database, the Essential Guides, and so on, are brief, at least in part because they are intended to inform casual readers. Also, page count and file size are concerns in those cases. As I said, someone has to provide an alternative, and in part I mean to say that someone must provide sustenance for the experienced fans who already have more than a layman's knowledge of the subject, who have read all the basic accounts and remain unsatisfied. We need more than just basic nutrition; we need meat and potatoes.

Not everyone is serving said dishes on the 'Pedia, which means that a small number end up becoming an article's caretakers. I really have no argument against something you said that was so good it bordered on poetry: Though this is an encyclopedia that anyone can edit, when an article gets to this size, it eventually becomes someone's. I don't consider myself the primary contributor here, and if someone is, it's Jack, who cleans up after all of us. I may, perhaps, be the primary content contributor, so by your reasoning, I guess it does fall on me to do the heavy work. If that's so - and I really don't like tooting my horn in such fashion - then trust that I'd never come start something this big if I wasn't prepared to finish it. It's taken a full year for me to get this far, and it may take another, or two more, for me to finish everything (at some point it will be finished, since the character's dead twice over). I'm here for the long haul. I stayed here through courting the woman who will be my wife in three weeks, getting her through two serious surgeries, moving in together and dealing with all the arrangements of a wedding, and managing my own business at the same time. I stayed here through all that; I'll be here through thick and thin.

But what will this look like when we're done? While I do want the article to be long and detailed, I don't want an unabridged Bible any more than you do. An abridged one will do just fine; what I don't want is the Cliff's Notes version. I am certain that it will be long, but that is just a measure of how complex this character is. He may be in the top five - if not on the top - as one of the most complex characters in the entire saga. How can his story be told in brief? I see clearly the direction this article can take, but I have no right to expect you or anyone else to take me on trust. That's why you took up the stand in the first place: you saw an article where some parts were big, and some were small - some of those dealing with subjects far more important than the ones that were big. You couldn't know that we're still in the middle of all this, and to you, something looks off. And you have a point: in the middle of this by whose estimate? Mine? The answer to all this may be that we should see to it that all the parts grow equally at the same time, not let some parts grow disproportionately to other parts. We can do that.

I also can't expect you to trust me when I say that I will exercise the moderation, the restraint, you have asked for. But I can trust that you will have looked over some of the changes I made over the last few days according to what we talked about, and you'll probably conclude - I hope - that I mean what I say, that I keep my promises.

And now, on to a personal note: I took the liberty of going to the Richard III page you worked on. It's excellent work. It's somehow appropriate that you turn your attention from Richard to Palpatine; there are quite a few character traits they share. I haven't seen the Olivier version myself, though I understand Criterion has it on DVD when I get curious. I have seen the Ian McKellen version, but something about it fell flat to me. The version I most love, ironically, is as much about the play as it is an adaption of it. It's real hard to find (it's not on DVD, and the VHS is expensive because it was never mass-released), but try to find Al Pacino's film Looking for Richard. He's triumphant in it.

So after all that vomiting of the keyboard, let me sum up. We've had our disagreement. I drew my line, and made the concessions I felt comfortable making. You accepted them, offered concessions of your own. The rest, we agreed to disagree on, and peaceably. In the absence of further complaints, I consider the matter closed. Best regards, and God bless! Erik Pflueger  02:14, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, I thank you for your time and your patience with my complaints. I am a sook, and I'm often riled if I don't get my way, but that's just my character, and I can't hope to change that. But you've subdued me, and I'm going to let this rest...when Conclusions is moved. But you've said that you would do that, and I trust you. I agree with you on the videogame front - they seem to be getting better canon-wise (except for the Battle of Wayland in Empire at War...disgusting), but I'm not sure that I agree with you on the more...exclusive tone that you wish for Wookiepedia. However, as I've said before, I'll concede the point, and leave the article be.

But I am puzzled - if this article is still a work in progress, in the sense that it does not yet contain informaion from currently published works, why is there a little star in the top right hand corner? I understand that you have a private life, unlike some of us (oh, and congratulations on that front), but this is the point I was trying to get across in the earlier post - an article so gargantuan is almost impervious to outside edits. As you said, others can come and offer the information, for you to glaze over, but the time between the input and the glaze presents us with, well, an article that resembles the Frankenstein monster, made up of lots of different little prose styles. I suppose that's why I made my initial, albiet terse comments. I had spent a day, on and off reading the article, and little parts of it gave me headaches. The parts that were obviously not written by you, Erik. And that's what the problem was.

Oh, and about the Richard III thing...I'm glad you like it. It gave me a few grey hairs, even at my young age, but I'm particularly proud of it. I did it probably because I'm a huge fan of Laurence Olivier than anything else, so the Palpatine link was purely coincidental. And I have been looking for...Looking for Richard, but it's not all that accessible here in Australia.

I appreciate your efforts, and I just want to apologise to any who I offended over the course of the past...2 weeks. Erik...Jack...and anyone else. Time to put this to rest. "Good night, and good luck". . .  .  .  02:41, 1 November 2006 (UTC)


 * You need to go to eBay, FourDot. There are several copies of Looking for Richard available. Most of the DVD copies are Region 2. Some computers are region free, I'm told. There's at least one VHS-PAL version, perhaps more. All of them are cheap. With luck, you'll find what you need. I don't know if you've already seen it, or want to see it, but in addition to being a spectacular exploration of Shakespeare - almost a love letter - it's one of Pacino's best projects, if only because he invested so much in it, and when Pacino gives a role his all, you just know you're in for a treat. Erik Pflueger [[Image:Galactic_Republic.JPG|20px]] 03:11, 1 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Throne of the Sith, this post is enough to warrant its own archive. Let me just say that I've always thought this article was well written, but FourDot has some good points. Anyway, Erik, it warmed my heart the other day to hear my latest greatest most headache-causing project compared to Palpatine, although it's still only half as long. As a matter of fact, if this is over, I may just make a special archive for this- "Look here if you ever want to cut Palpatine down." Sorry I wasn't here to help moderate everyone, I try to keep the peace in an unofficial manner. Atarumaster88  [[Image:Jedi_Order.jpg|20px]] ( Audience Chamber ) 03:00, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I'll take your advice to heart Erik. I'm very curious to see it. And Ataru...you should probably be keeping the peace in an official manner, judging by the way you conduct yourself.... .  .  .  .  03:39, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
 * True, Ataru compliments me for my diplomacy, but I think he's much better at it than I am. He'd make a fine moderator, don't you think? Erik Pflueger [[Image:Galactic_Republic.JPG|20px]] 03:51, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Sidious never got disarmed!
Alright, when Sids and Yoda have their first force duel, you have a real good look at Sids face. It is scrunched together on his cheeks and has a yellow-greenish color. When they engage in a saber duel, you again have a good look at his face. It has not changed. He is not under direct light and since his face is hidden behind his cloak, his face looks gray now compared to the yellow-greenish as earlier seen. But thats because in the throne room, Sids face was in direct light so his face looks as exactly as it really is. But in the senate area, his face is darker because of the lack of light and his cloak. But in any case, his face has NOT changed. Now, Sids has changed tactics and starts to hurl pods at Yoda. When the camara pans in on his face, you can clearly see his face has NOT changed. It is exactly the way it was when the duel first started. So that contradicts what the Junior Novilization says of Sids face being further deformed. So therefore Sids was never disarmed by Yoda. What truly happened to his saber we probably will never know. HOWEVER, chances are that he chucked it once he realized that he and Yoda equaled in swordsmenship. Also, when Yoda pushed the pod back to Sidious and forced him to a lower Senate pod, we see the jedi master dash on the pod with his saber brandished. By the way of his position and his surprisement for when he got disarmed, makes it seem like Yoda was preparing for another Saber duel with Sidious. Now why would Yoda prepare for another saber duel with Sids if Yoda disarmed him earlier? Oh i know, cause Sids never got disarmed!!! Also for the sake of the argument, the novilization explained things that never happened in the movie, such as Yoda using his body as a weapon, something he was unable to do because he was still to weak from the lightning attack. Also, Yoda never tried to strike Sids while he was down, that would be murder, in yodas opinion. The novilization stated "Yoda brought his saber down, to be met by the emperors red sith blade." Never happened, Yoda NEVER tried to stab sids while he was down, he gave him a chance to defend himself, because that was the jedi way. Also, the pod fight was shortened greatly, Sids almost defeated Yoda with the pods, something the novel left out. So, the Juniour Novilization was written to make Yoda look more powerful, just as the novel itself tried to make Sids more powerful. The movie tried to make oppents look equal, something it did well. So we cant accept the Novel nor the Juniour Novilization as canon because both contradict the movie.
 * Aside from the fact that it seems you're trying to make two things appear to be the same, Sidious was disarmed. He lost his lightsaber. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 01:15, 28 October 2006 (UTC)


 * No he wasnt cause we never saw it in the movie. And if it didnt happen in the movie, IT NEVER HAPPENED. And whos to say he just didnt chuck it or put it away?
 * Just because it wasn't shown in the movie doesn't mean it didn't happen. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 19:03, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeah, didn't one of the novelisations cover that? And besides, Palpatine wasn't that great a duelist, his talents lied elsewhere. .  .  .  .  23:44, 28 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Hey Palpatine defeated Yoda in a duel and also equaled him in saber combat. He also defeated three jedi in under five seconds. AND, he also defeated Mace Windu once he realized Anakin turned. That seems like a good duelist to me. But anyway, the way it says he got disarmed doesnt add up. Like for example, it says his face got further deformed because of that, which in actuality never happened because i just disproved that. And it says the blast of lightning knocked Yoda back, well from the way he landed on the pod, he landed facing foward not backward which wouldve happened if he had been knocked off the podium. And it says that palpatine had in fact backed up while firing his lightning at Yoda, which if you look at the podium can see it has very little room and is very unlikely palpatine could back up without falling off. And, in the novil it said he "redoubled the speed of his blows", the speed in which we see Yoda use against Palpy is the fastest he can go, otherwise we wouldve seen him go faster. So see, the whole way the disarment has been described in ways that have disproved or unlikely. Neither the novel nor Junior Novilization are complete canon, because both explain events that never happened. Therefore we must come to the conclusion that whatever happened on the poduim, whether Palps got disarmed or disposed his own weapon, we will never truly know until George Lucas himself tells us.

Did Mace physically beat Sidious or did Sidious mentally beat Mace?

 * We all see in the movie what happens: Sidious takes down three jedi masters in under 5 seconds. He later duels with Mace for a while until Anakin comes in and Sids is "miraculously" defeated. Then Sids is supposidly to "weak" to continue after firing his lightning. But as soon as Anakin turned, Sids killed Mace like it was nothing. And also when Sids dueled Yoda, you can clearly he redoubled the speed of his saber blows from last time which allowed him to pull off a stalemate with Yoda in a saber duel. He also later managed to defeat Yoda using his force abilities. Now if Sids was able to stalemate yoda with sabers, then beat him using the force, why couldnt he do the same with Mace? Because he played Mace like a harmonica!! Sids knew Anakin would never turn if he saw him waving a saber, so he decided to allow Mace to "outspare" him and "defeat" him until Anakin came him. Then he used the lightning as kind of a show to prove how powerful he was. He noticed how Anakin still hadnt decided and decided to play a "weak old man." Meanwhile Mace thinks he has the dark lord beat, little does he know the power still in sids and the game thats being played. Once Anakin turned and Sids was sure of it, he killed Mace and showed his true colors. So what do you see? I see a dark lord who managed to outsmart Mace Windu then later turn a jedi into his new apprentice.
 * Not again... not... AGAIN... Can I please delete this section and send the author to read the long discussion before? - Sikon 17:17, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Vader
I'm wondering, when Sidious was rescueing Vader, didn't it occur to him that if Vader 'bought it', he could clone him. Of cource such a clone would be slightly less powerful than the actual Vader, but it would still be incredibly powerful, and its powers wouldn't be limited by prosthetics. user:Darth Vatrir
 * That's a really good question, Vatrir, but unless some EU writer writes a story in which Palpatine does make a clone from the DNA of the deep-fried Anakin, we'll just have to assume it didn't occur to him to do that. To be fair to him, he was kind of distracted. But can you imagine him, after he's put crispy Anakin in the black suit and all, suddenly realizing "Oh, I could have just cloned him! Duh!" and slapping his own forehead? Erik Pflueger [[Image:Galactic_Republic.JPG|20px]] 22:06, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Thank you. Maybe I should write the EU story. And I came up with another perk of cloning Vader, Sidious could raise the clone to be completely loyal to him, thusly avoid the danger of Sith master-apprentice one-kill-the-other relationships. user:Darth Vatrir
 * The problem with that is that the two Karen Traviss short stories about Vader, which take place soon after ROTS, imply that for some reason, Sidious wants Vader to try to betray him. Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader seems to imply the same thing. Somehow it has something to do being a natural sign of his growth as a Sith. It may be that he didn't want Vader to actually succeed, just to try it. I have a problem wrapping my head around it fully, and until then I can't speak fully about the matter, but I'm not sure that cloning a version of Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader that had the same genetically-programmed loyalty as, say, a clone trooper cloned from Jango Fett, would be what Palpatine needed or wanted. Erik Pflueger [[Image:Galactic_Republic.JPG|20px]] 03:44, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Augie
It might be worth mentioning, in the section regarding speculation about Palpatine's name, that the melody from the "Augie's Great Municipal Band" song in The Phantom Menace is exactly the same as Palpatine's theme music from "The Emperor's Throne Room" from Return of the Jedi, except in a major key instead of a minor one. This might lend further credence to the claim that "Augie" is Palpatine, and I think it's at least worth putting in the article. - Grand Moff Chloe


 * The problem, Chloe, is that that's a claim no one really has an interest in lending credence to. I noticed that fact that the Gungan band was playing Palpatine's theme in a major key two seconds after they started playing it, and I don't know anyone who failed to notice it. But does that mean that Palpatine is Augie, or that his first name is Augustus? That's a leap most of us can't make, and don't want to. The idea that this was his first name is strictly fan speculation, and with the sole exception you cite, there is absolutely nothing to back it up that is canon. In fact, there are no first names that are recognized by the Lucas authorities, and without something from them, everything else is just academic.

Now, let me make another suggestion: if you mean that the inclusion of that theme in the film was one of the film's hints that Palpatine was actually not the gentle being he posed as, that he was in fact the same Darth Sidious that was behind everything, then yes, it deserves inclusion in the behind the scenes section of the article. It was probably more important back when his identity as Sidious had not been absolutely confirmed in ROTS, and those who believed in it had to use whatever they had to back their claim up. Nowadays, it's more of an anecdotal reference, a way of saying "I remember when that was real grist for the 'Palpatine-is-really-Sidious' discussion." Ah, those were the days... Erik Pflueger  20:14, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
 * If they ever do reveal his name, I hope it's Augustus, or just August. Sounds cool. Not like Frank. But that's a joke anyway. .  .  .  .  21:29, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm more inclined towards Ethril Palpatine, if only because we were a short hair away from having that be official as early as TPM, until Lucas said no. In other words, out of all of the supposed first names, it was the closest thing to canon we're likely to get for now. So close, and yet so not. But since it's not, as I said, it's all academic. I don't understand LFL's reluctance to give him any kind of first name, truth be told. I mean, who's it gonna hurt? Erik Pflueger [[Image:Galactic_Republic.JPG|20px]] 22:01, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm still praying for August. Ethril? Was that in the early drafts or something? .  .  .  .  22:17, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
 * No, I wish. From what I understand - actually, someone put this on the Palpatine page - is that someone (possibly David West Reynolds, since he wrote the book) put the name Ethril into early drafts of the Episode I Visual Dictionary, but Lucas said no to this. I wish he'd done otherwise, but there it is. Erik Pflueger [[Image:Galactic_Republic.JPG|20px]] 23:03, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Gah! I wish someone would give him a goddamn name already! Maybe his grandson could be named after him...making his make Ken ;) .  .  .  .  23:06, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Ewwww... Erik Pflueger [[Image:Galactic_Republic.JPG|20px]] 03:37, 1 November 2006 (UTC)