Talk:Sith/Legends

Darth Revan
Does anyone else think there is too much relating to Darth Revan's personal life? Mentioning the swoop gangs, his love for Bastila, all the different companions he gains in his travels- these things all seem largely irrelevant to an article about the Sith.

Structural Revision
I hate the way the Dark Lords and generic Sith are organised on this page... does anyone care if I do a major reorganisation, dumping, among other things, the chronological listings? QuentinGeorge 06:46, 12 May 2005 (UTC)
 * It might be good to do it on a temp page first, and then post a link for the community to see, rather than making a massive, one time change. --SparqMan 06:50, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

Move to Sith Order
Should we move this over to Sith Order to better distinguish it from the Sith race? -- SFH 17:44, 15 Oct 2005 (UTC)
 * I agree, howver this would mean that Jedi should be moved to Jedi Order. Jasca Ducato 18:54, 23 Oct 2005 (UTC)
 * No, there is no Jedi race, so it doesn't matter. - Alpha Fire 21:22, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I too disagree. This article is about the Sith, in general, not one of the three Sith orders. In fact, Sith Order should be taken out of the intro section and replaced by Sith. On another note, I am considering making Sith Order a disabmiguity page due to the fact that its redirect does not really make sense anymore. The page would list the Brotherhood of Darkness, Brotherhood of the Sith, and Sith Order (Bane). Thoughts? --Sentry 04:18, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Definitely not. In fact, there shouldn't even be a "Sith Order (Bane)" because Palpatine makes it clear in Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader that the Sith Order died on Ruusan, and ever since Bane and his descendents are something else. Kuralyov 04:24, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
 * At this point, I am not even sure there ever was a group that called themselves the Sith Order. Maybe its just fanon...--Sentry 04:34, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

Move History to separate page?
It seems as though this article is one big history lesson, with no mention of the Sith's practices, beliefs, or any other information (other than the Code at the top). How would everyone feel about moving the history to a separate page? The main Sith page could then hold more information on who the Sith were and what they did. This would also be consistent with the Jedi History page, which remains a separate page from the Jedi Order. --Culix 04:07, 6 Oct 2005 (UTC)
 * I agree. Both this and the Jedi page as severely lacking on actual 'examinations of the order. QuentinGeorge 06:51, 25 Oct 2005 (UTC)
 * Done. Now we can begin refining the history page separately. --Culix 19:54, 2 Nov 2005 (UTC)

Post-NJO Sith source?

 * "Following the Yuuzhan Vong invasion, however, Jedi Knight Kyle Katarn encountered a Force-strong Yuuzhan Vong female in the mysterious Cloak of the Sith region of the galaxy, where it was rumored that post-Palpatine Sith still lived. Powerful though she was, Kyle sensed an even darker hand behind her training. Apparently, this Yuuzhan Vong had a Master . . ."
 * From this article. Is there a source for this? 'Cause it smells like fanon. --Imp 02:07, 5 Aug 2005 (UTC)


 * That's from the Wizard's of the Coast website. The Dark Forces articles. -- 63.245.159.27
 * By golly, it is. --Imp 02:29, 5 Aug 2005 (UTC)

It's not Fanon. The Yuuzhan Vong's master was Luyima. Read the LEGACY OF THE FORCE SERIES Darth Brutus09 01:09, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Code
Is the last line of the Sith Code "The Force shall free me", ot is it "The Force shall set me Free"? User:SFH

Do we have any sources for where the Code actually originated from? Was it invented by Xendor or perhaps compiled over time? --Culix 06:23, 1 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * I think it's "free me". --Master Starkeiller 01:42, 28 Aug 2005 (UTC)
 * In KOTOR it's "Set me free". User:Darthnemesis555
 * Definately not Xendor, as he was never a Sith Lord. QuentinGeorge 08:24, 1 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * That doesn't mean he couldn't have invented the code. It might have originally been a Dark Jedi code that was slowly absolved by the Sith. I think the chances of it being created by Xendor are pretty high. Jasca Ducato 15:36, 1 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * I agree with Jasca. While he may not have formed it, it may have been partially based on his meditations. As for the source, this code comes from KOTOR. -- SFH 06:43, 6 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * Sorry, maybe I didn't phrase my question correctly. I realize that the code showed up in KOTOR IRL, but I meant to ask if we had any in universe mention of who thought it up. Perhaps nothing official has ever been said? --Culix 06:16, 7 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * Oh. No, nothing in universe has been said. -- SFH 15:10, 7 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * Err, not that i know off. Sorry. Jasca Ducato 19:54, 9 Nov 2005 (UTC)


 * Um, there's a different Sith Code out there.

There is no fear, there is power. There is no death, there is immortality. There is no weakness, there is the Dark Side. I am the Heart of Darkness. I know no fear, But rather I instill it in my enemies. I am the destroyer of worlds. I know the power of the Dark Side. I am the fire of hate. All the Universe bows before me. I pledge myself to the Darkness. For I have found true life, In the death of the light.

Shouldn't this be included? I mean, it is the code from Darth Bane on. -Hitokiri Akins I'm fairly certain that KOTOR is the source. - Angel Blue 451 21:36, 8 Dec 2005 (UTC)
 * Provide a source before this is added, please. QuentinGeorge 05:00, 8 Dec 2005 (UTC)
 * No, it's not. I've played through both KOTOR games countless times, and the only Sith Code mentioned in them is the one that's already in this article.

Ancient Sith
How can Tulak Hord have lived in the same era as Ajunta Pall if Hord was a lightsaber duelist? Not only had the lightsaber not been invented yet, but the Sith wouldn't come to use it until after the Great Hyperspace War. I don't see how Hord could have reigned anytime but after Ludo Kressh.


 * Since we can only assume when he lived at this point, I moved him to "Others". --Master Starkeiller 16:31, 4 Sep 2005 (UTC)

Also, shouldn't King Adas be on the list somewhere? Lieutenant Gerard 16:22, 2 Sep 2005 (UTC)


 * If he lived 16.000 BBY, he should be under the "Ancient Sith" section. I put him there. --Master Starkeiller 16:32, 4 Sep 2005 (UTC)


 * The Lightsaber was invented before the time of Ajunta Pall, sometime just after the Jedi formed.

Main Picture
Anyone opposed to me adding this image as the main picture?--Knightfall


 * Yeah, me. It's awful. We have a pic showing the same thing where Sidious and Vader look much better. No, absolutely not. Without the tweaking to make Hayden taller, Vader looks LAME. --Master Starkeiller 18:56, 27 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * No problem. Just figured I'd ask. Thanks for the reply. --Knightfall 19:34, 27 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * If it weren't for Vader's height, it would be fine... --Master Starkeiller 20:12, 27 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * I always thought that pic would be better for this page. I mean, when you say "Sith", what do you first think about?TIEPilot051999 01:48, 28 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * This may be beating a dead horse, but in regards to what Starkeiller said, doesn't this picture properly represent Vader's height? The tweaking to make Hayden taller was actually IN the suit he wore, it wasn't edited in later...well, at least as far as I know. If thats true, then that would make Vader's height in this picture accurate.--Knightfall 00:54, 3 Dec 2005 (UTC)
 * It's because its actually Ryan Kaufman in the suit for the promos, I've heard. QuentinGeorge 02:58, 3 Dec 2005 (UTC)
 * I prefer this picture, not the current one which is in the article. The only thing I do not like in that pic is that Vader has a blue lightsaber, which does not really represent the tradition of a red blade. - TopAce 11:50, 3 Jan 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree with TopAce... the current main picture isin't good enough. I really don't see a problem with the picture presented by Knightfall. I always thought that represented Vader's height in comparision to Palpatine. Geuss I have to watch Return of the Jedi again! -- Maphisto86 13:12, 4 Feb 2006 (UTC)
 * No seriously the picture with the red blades is better. How is it crap!? Im talking to Jasca Duacto. Vader doesen't look that small! The current picture with Anakin (pre-Mustafar) and Palpatine looks...well lame. It just doesen't say "Sith" to me. Sorry guys for beating a dead horse but I need a answer (a mature one, not "you suck!!1!!"). I'll stop changing it if someone gives a good answer. - Maphisto86 8:06, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Here is a good answer. The picture is crap. Yes i'm sure there are better pictures out there on the internet than the one we currently have but we haven't found them. The one with Vader in the armour would be alright were it not for the fact that he is too short.

Also, if you want to talk to me personally leave a message on my user talk. Thanks Jasca Ducato 13:19, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeah I keep on hearing that Vader is too short. I noticed that he is a little short in the picture although in ROTS and ROTJ Palpatine's head is about shoulder hight to Vader. In the promo picture he is about neck hieght to Vader. Well Im glad that you answered so quickly and concise. In the future if I want to talk to you or another user I will do so directly. P.S. I apologise if my last comment sounded like a challenge or something... :P Maphisto86 9:22, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I also perfer this suggested picture. And File:Vaderemperor.jpg was another Vader-stands-next-to-Palpy pic, and I dont see that much height difference with this suggested one. Darth Kevinmhk 09:34, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Take note of the angle the picture is from. It could well provide a false impression. Jasca Ducato 18:53, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
 * This one, then File:Construction of the Death Star.jpg. Better angle, huh? Similar result. Darth Kevinmhk 03:14, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Better angles, yes. But you can see that Vader's slouching. You catch that, huh? Jasca Ducato 10:04, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Okay, people, calm down. Let's just keep the pic we have now and leave it at that. It's a good pic, and it represents Vader at his most powerful. Remeber that if he hadn't been hacked to bits by Obi-Wan, he'd be able to easliy overthrow Palpatine, and wouldn't have taken anymore orders from him once he realized his true power and potential. -Lord vader1414 22:20, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Ranks?
Where do the ranks for the pre-Bane Sith come from? Lieutenant Gerard 18:40, 16 Dec 2005 (UTC)
 * The Dark Side Sourcebook. -- SFH 20:15, 16 Dec 2005 (UTC)
 * Should Sith Assassin be on the list? Isn't it not a rank so much as a prestige class? Lieutenant Gerard 01:14, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
 * During the Jedi Civil War, it was a rank. --Sentry 07:50, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

First landing
We need to gain some consensus on where the Dark Jedi first discovered the Sith race. Ziost may have been the homeworld, but I think that they first discovered them on Korriban. Any thoughts? -- SFH 20:15, 16 Dec 2005 (UTC)
 * I'm pretty sure that the KOTOR loading screens say the Dark Jedi landed on Korriban. Lieutenant Gerard 23:26, 6 Jan 2006 (UTC)

Philosophy
Can we get a source for that Philosophy section? Sounds fanony to me, but I think I'll give it a chance. -- SFH 18:56, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Only result from Google is...us. --Fade 18:19, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Sith Organisations
Should we move the list of Sith Orginisations (ie the Naddists, the Brotherhood) to a seperate article making acsess easier. It would also tidy the page up a bit! Jasca Ducato 16:30, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I only added it becuase this article was far too broad and chaotic. I mean, the term 'Sith' refers to numerous disparate organizations that rose and fell over thousands of years of galactic history. Without a list of them, the article becomes far to generalized. I agree that the new section makes for an overlong contents block, but the list improves navigation and it seems more important than the list of RPG classes... --Sentry 23:45, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I understand that but under a new article, say Sith Orginisations/Orginizations it would mean we could add more detail. Jasca Ducato 08:57, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Empathy quote
Was one sith ever defeated?
 * What is the source for the lead in quote about empathy? -- SFH 16:29, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
 * From The Apprentice (comic) in Star Wars Tales. So it's legit, but of unknown canonicity. --Fade 17:09, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Behind the Scenes

 * Shortly, I'm going to integrate all that KOTOR junk into the main article since the titles that are already in the article (ie acolyte, warrior, lord, etc) are from the RPG anyway so I'm not sure why they are listed twice. QuentinGeorge 05:08, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I've been wanting to do that for a while... Its good to see it finally deleted. --Sentry 04:09, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

99.50.229.36 02:56, June 23, 2010 (UTC)chlorian.MIDI
 * On a separate note, I think it merits mention that we do not hear the term Sith in the original trilogy (or if it's mentioned, it certainly eluded me). This is crucial, because we only know from the original films that the Emperor and Vader use the Dark Side, but not that they are members of a separate order of Force users.  It appears that Alan Dean Foster addresses the matter in more detail in his novelization, but the public as a whole did not know the term; it did not even appear in the Thrawn trilogy.

Copy Editing
"Dark side" is apparently not capitalized--thanks to JackNebullax for pointing that out--but what about concepts like Dark Side Adept (dark side Adept), Dark Side Elite (dark side Elite): are these proper nouns and should be stylized up (Dark Side Adept, Dark Side Elite), or is "dark side" here merely descriptive and "Adept" and "Elite" are the actual (proper) noun and they should be styled down (dark side Adept, dark side Elite)? Perhaps a trivial point, but an improvement drive is an improvement drive, and copy editing helps improve any text. Ulic 17:51, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

what was wrong with what i added?
The line: -"A Sith beleives he comands the force, but it is the dark side that commands him."

- Jolee Bindo ?

Master Nikolce 08:37, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I can't speak for QuentinGeorge, but I think it's just that too many quotes in a row are discouraged. One in a row is usually plenty; if there's a different subsection that's appropriate for that quote to head off, it would fit much better there, and it should be perfectly fine to add it. - Lord Hydronium 09:00, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Okay, instead, i've found it in the dark side article. Good enough for me.

Master Nikolce 00:31, 29 April 2006 (UTC)


 * The problem with that quote is that it is biased against the Sith. You shouldnt quote a Jedi in a Sith or Dark Side article.
 * Not at all, as a sith would be biased to their own beliefs to, the reason was due to the amount of quotes in such a small space. Jedi Dude 22:35, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Sith (species) Homeworld
According to the new Star Wars Insider, the home planet of the Sith species is Korriban, not Ziost. I'm changing it in the article. Duke Starhopper 22:07, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
 * The homeworld of the Sith species is not Korriban. It is Ziost according to most primary sources.--Sentry [ Talk ] 06:13, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Move
Why was this page moved to "Sith Order"? The article is about the Sith, not any particular organization. The term Sith, at various times, referred to a species, various empires, a sect or two, a brotherhood, and a number of other disparate organizations. This article belongs at "Sith".– 05:01, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
 * It was moved because Jasca decided his opinion was more important than consensus. -- Darth Culator  (Talk)(Kills) 05:14, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, it is going back to Sith until he can explain himself.– 05:20, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Changes
What was wrong with the changes I made i thought they looked better.-User:KickAssJedi

Dark Acolyte
I believe this should be added to the Sith Ranks. There is already the Sith Acolyte, but no Dark Acolyte. I believe they played a significant enough part in Star Wars to at least get mentioned.
 * Well, if they have an article, they're significant. But it's not a Sith rank, it's a Dark Jedi rank. DarthAb.gif Sith Council Sith Campaign 11:05, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Whats the source for this information?
"The Sith were a species of red-skinned humanoids native to Ziost and Korriban that were enslaved by exiled Dark Jedi. Prior to their discovery, the Sith were divided into a meek and lowly slave class, a skilled and intelligent engineer class, and the warlike Massassi class. Over time, the Sith interbred with the Human Dark Jedi through the practice of Sith Alchemy, and the two peoples became one."

What source(s) does it mention that the Sith and Human Dark Jedi interbred?
 * Try reading the articles Sith (species), and Dark Jedi, and you'll find out. &#123;&#123;SUBST:User:Jasca Ducato/Sig}} 08:37, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Killik Sith Lord
As a note, this, I suspect, is dated wrong. The Killik Sith Lord article mentions its off by approximately 19000 years as of the Hundred Year Darkness, placing the Killik Sith Lord around 26,000 BBY, though probably earlier, as Alderaan was abandoned in roughly 30,000 BBY. --Sinre 21:34, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Sith Names
While the article talks about the practice of adding "Darth" before Sith names, I think some general guidelines, if there are any, to Sith name creation would be useful and relevant. Thanks. mrobviousjosh 18:36, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Adding for behind the scenes
Hey I have thought of an addition to the behind the scenes part. "The Sith teachings of dominance and only the strong survive are possible references to evolution on earth." Should I add it? (65.34.164.133 00:15, 8 February 2008 (UTC)King Maakel)


 * Actually, I would much more strongly connect it with the philosophy of Friedrich Nietzsche.

Etymology of the name Sith
While doing some casual reading, I discovered a possible origin of the name "Sith". Sidhe. While it may be possible that Lucas simply invented the word, I find it interesting the similarities between the hidden, mysterious Sith Order and the faerie witches of Gaelic mythology.

Sith are Without Fear
In the Star Wars, Clone Wars animated series Tyranis claims that sith are without fear. He uses this fact when arguing that Assage Ventri is not a sith
 * An interesting observation; fear must be some sort of emotional barrier to using the Dark Side, because Tyranis also tells Anakin he senses great fear, that he has anger and hate but doesn't use them. hmmmm...--Anonyhm 21:56, September 28, 2009 (UTC)
 * Yet Yoda says that fear leads to the Dark Side and fear is needed to turn to the Dark Side. --Jared Waymen 22:05, September 28, 2009 (UTC)

For behind the scenes
ok from what i can see the philosophy of the sith sounds like either the ideas laid out by friedrich nietzche (I HATE HIM SO MUCH) or a version of social darwinism and evolution. Agian this is just my personal opinion but would that be "behind the scenes" worthy or do i need some kind of source or proof?
 * Not worthy. Opinions mean very little, you need proof. Dark Lord Trayus 23:11, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

1446 BBY
What is the source that the New Sith Empire conquered the entire known galaxy beyond the colonies by 1446 BBY? The NEC has 1446 BBY as the year of the Battle of Mizra, but doesn't mention the size of the New Sith Empire at that point. Barringer 06:44, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

The Eyes
It's apparent that the change in color of eyes is something to do with, at the very least, extensive use of the Dark Side. I was surprised to find no mention of eye color change in this article. Does anyone else think some kind of mention should be made of the flaming eyes as evidenced in Maul, Krayt, Palpatine, and Skywalker? Medleystudios72 14:10, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
 * As far as I'm aware, there's no canon source that links that with the Sith. It could happen to anyone who uses the Dark Side enough, in which case it wouldn't belong in this article, it would belong in the Dark side of the Force article. At any rate, until we've got a source that explicitly says what the source of the eye color change is, anything that we write about it will be speculation, and therefore shouldn't be included. DolukFurthermore I believe that lists must be destroyed. 17:24, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
 * And actually, now that I actually took the time to look it up, it seems that we already talk about it in the Dark side of the Force article. DolukFurthermore I believe that lists must be destroyed. 17:26, 4 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I did notice that it was talked about on the other page, but it seemed like speculation to me to say either thing. We've only ever seen it happen to Sith Lords.  To my knowledge, we've never seen another Dark Sider (non-Sith) display the eye color change.  Is there a source that differentiates?  Does anything actually come out and say it happens to anyone using the Dark Side enough, regardless of membership in the Sith Order?

Medleystudios72 14:28, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
 * It happens to those who use the Dark Side and even that's ambiguous - we see some very powerful Sith Lords (like Dooku and Exar Kun), who have normal eyes and skin. As for non-Sith darksiders, who were deformed, you may want to check Amanoa, Ommin, Cronal, Depa Billaba, Maris Brood, Mighella, Namman Cha, Silri and practically all Nightsisters. Darth Fist 23:26, November 12, 2009 (UTC)

Is there anything about the difference in color? I noticed the eyes of the Sith in KOTOR are gray and cloudy looking, yet the eyes in more recent Sith are red/yellow/orange. I'm probably missing some older Sith who have the red/yellow/orange eyes, and I remember there was a Sith in the One Order who had white eyes. Does this have anything to do with whether or not they are "true" Sith? What is the difference, if there is any?

Oh, and I thought I should mention that after Darth Caedus kills Mara he looks into his mirror on his.. I think it was a Stealth X, and sees his eyes have changed color, indicating he had become the Sith master. His eyes turned to the same color as Anakin's when he became a Sith. Obviously, Anakin was never Sith master, but this is a canonical example of the changing of eye color being related to the Sith. I can't remember any examples of non Sith (just dark side users) having this eye color. Maybe they had the cloudy white eyes? Any help here would be hot.

Tattoos
I'm not a real member so I won't edit such an important section but their is a phrase "the tattoos were extremely painful, as they often cover the entire body" I think the phrasing is misleading. The tattoos are extremely painful because of the way the Sith do it not because of the amount. Wouldn't "the sith method of applying tattoos is extremely painful. Especially as the often cover the majority of ones body." be better? --72.241.206.170 22:14, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

Timeline
Hello. I'm a huge fan of this wiki. This is one of my favorite articles, and I love the timeline. But I don't like what has been done to it. Even though you have that new history section above, could you please restore the first half of the timeline? Maybe should do both that and finish the history section. Please fix it, that is my favorite part of the article. Thanks in advance!

Sith Empire = True Sith?
They both are linked to the same page, but they still are described as different on this page... I'm afraid I'm completely lost in the Sith history... :s LelalMekha 16:21, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Grammar/Spelling
I suggest that whoever has access to this article, please read through it (out loud), and correct errors.

Watch for things like missing words and word swapping, i.e., the use of tenants instead of tenets.

Update: I'm able to edit now. Whew. Good.

SWTOR and history
There is a factual inaccuracy in the history section:

"However, for some odd reason, the Sith Empire eventually lost power and retreated. Whether this was the result of a Republic counterstrike or a fluke or intentional retreat on the Sith Empire's part remains unknown. Either way, within thirty years, the Cold War was over, and the Sith were once again gone, though why remains unknown."

This is the information it is based on:

"Debuting this month, Star Wars: The Old Republic - Threat of Peace will feature action-packed, character-driven episodes written by BioWare’s Rob Chestney and published by Dark Horse. The stories will span the three decades from the pivotal signing of the Treaty of Coruscant to critical events at the beginning of the game."

Is the Sith Empire is not 'gone' at the beginning of the game! (- -) 22:11, March 25, 2010 (UTC)


 * Deleted un-sourced speculation, the section needs a proper ending now, I put a request for expansion (- -) 21:48, April 4, 2010 (UTC)

Anakins Skywalkers love for his son
You should mention that Anakin Skywalker returned because of his love for his son. Thats why Siths dispise love.

Dominiation
Did the Sith ever take over the Galaxy before Sidious' Empire? Flyn Arc  21:00, September 17, 2010 (UTC)