Talk:Endor Holocaust

Evil deletionists
They've put the Wikipedia article on VFD.--Eion 19:13, 15 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Those motherfuckers have put it up AGAIN! I ask everyone, go over there and vote KEEP! Adamwankenobi 09:24, 21 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * Nominated for deletion a 3rd time. -LtNOWIS 14:27, 6 April 2006 (PDT)
 * Deleted. We're a better place for articles on this sort of thing anyway. &mdash;Silly Dan (talk) 21:27, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

New category
Should we make a category for these types of theories? KEJ 13:19, 21 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * I have no objections, but some people object to applying physics to canon. They would rather be wrong.  They insist on idiocy such as the radiator-panels on TIEs being solar panels.  They would like nothing better than to delete this hypothesis  (technically, it is an hypothesis because although the moon would surely be devastated if its planetary shield failed with the shield projected onto the Death Star, but the shieldsystems may be independent, thus protecting the moon from the explosion)  even though it comes directly from canon. — Ŭalabio‽ 04:01, 22 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * Well, sure, but it's not so much an in-universe thing, but a hypothesized theory about what might have happened to Endor. There's no canon to it at all, and the canonical sources do not tell of a devestated Endor. I guess it's a real-world theory About the universe - like the theory that Saesee Tiin is in league with Palpatine/Sidious because he doesn't do anything while Agen Kolar gets killed (Tiin could actually have chopped Palpatine's head clean off). I guess these theories are more of a real world thing rather than a canon or in-universe thing.KEJ 08:07, 22 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * I have no objection to a category for notable fan theories; having this in a category with an article on the size of an SSD, sensor globes vs. shield generators, and/or the function of TIE panels would probably actually be beneficial. The main thing is that theories mustn't overwhelm canon material in the regular articles themselves; relaying the official, canonical stance is the first priority of this Wiki.  jSarek 08:33, 22 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * Hey that's true. And all the links to in-universe articles could also be beneficiary. I hadn't even thought about that. I don't think these theories will be overwhelming in any sense. Firstly, there are not that many of them, Secondly, if we keep all the theory stuff in separate articles from the in-universe ones, then the theories and the canonical stuff won't be mixed (since most theories are fan-made, and thus fanon, the rule against fanon in canonical articles should appliy here as well) so readers won't get confused. Thirdly, we just have to make sure to spell out in the theory-articles that they are fan-made theories and not canonical. Fourthly, a category for fan-made theories and hypotheses, I guess, would also have a clarifying effect, such that readers won't mistake the theories for canon. KEJ 12:10, 22 Nov 2005 (UTC)

True?
Here's my take on it. I have it up on my web site as well (www.rpbird.com).

CALLING ALL EWOKS

The Endor Holocaust supposes that the destruction of the second Death Star precipitated a rain of matter onto the surface of Endor's moon that destroyed the ecosystem and may have wiped out the Ewoks. In order to explain the celebration scene at the end of Return, this theory also supposes that the Rebel fleet is protecting that area of the moon.

(For more on this theory, see http://www.theforce.net/swtc/holocaust.html, http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Endor_Holocaust, and http://www.swrpgnetwork.com/files/endor/)

I reject this for several reasons. The bombardment of the moon would have begun almost immediately, before the fleet could deploy to protect Rebel personnel on the surface. Such a devastating explosion wold have produced fragments traveling at several miles a second. If they were going to hit the moon, they'd have started in the hours between the second Death Star's destruction and the cremation of Anakin Skywalker's remains and the start of the celebrations.

No one would stay on a doomed planet for a celebration. The emotions of Luke and the others are all wrong if an apocalypse is going on just a few hundred miles away. Would the Force ghosts of Yoda, Obi-wan, and Anakin be smiling if widespread devastation were taking place? They'd be unhappy, since such an occurrence would cause massive disruptions in the Force.

So what happened to the mass of the wreckage? From the expanded universe we know that a few bits and pieces did hit the planet, causing local cratering. Other small parts went into orbit, whether around the moon or its gas giant parent planet the literature doesn't say (Or maybe it does. I'm basing my analysis on what I saw in the movies and what I've read of this topic from proponents and detractors.). That's it. And maybe, maybe a small wormhole was opened at the site of the explosion. Also, maybe, there was a short-lived debris ring around the moon.

We know there was no bombardment of the planet or imminent ecological disaster from the behavior of Luke, his friends, Rebel pilots, and the Force ghosts celebrating on the surface. The effects would have been almost immediate. What constrained the blast and its wreckage? If an object of similar mass were to explode above the Earth, all hell would break loose within minutes, and hour at the outside.

No one involved in this debate has yet mentioned, except briefly, the advanced technologies of the Star Wars reality and how they might have impacted (heh) this subject. There has been a brief discussion of hypermatter and the possibility that when the DS2's hypermatter reactor blew, it punched a hole through realspace and hyperspace to form a black hole. That's where all the matter went. The original proponent of the Endor Holocaust rejects this based on one statement by Han Solo. It's in the first movie (this may be a paraphrase, since I'm too lazy to look it up): "Flying through hyperspace ain't like dusting crops, kid.  You fly too close to a supernova or through the center of a star and that'll end your trip right quick." He assumes that this means hyperspace matter or vehicles in hyperspace will react with realspace matter. So, according to this interpretation, even if the wreckage gets sucked into hyperspace, it'll still hit the planet.

That ain't gonna play. Matter is everywhere in the galaxy. Even in supposedly empty interstellar space, there is a "gas" of one molecule per cubic centimeter (or is it cubic meter?). If material in hyperspace reacts with realspace matter, anyone attempting to travel in hyperspace would be killed within seconds of firing up the old hyperdrive. Imagine the kinetic energy of something traveling at multiple times the speed of light hitting even a single molecule of matter in normal space. Ka-boom! That doesn't happen in the Star Wars reality. So why steer clear of supernovae and stellar interiors? The gravity there (supernovae produce black holes and neutron stars) would warp spacetime so much, it might impinge on hyperspace. Since realspace and hyperspace are accessible to each other pretty much everywhere, there is a connection between the two, a kind of proximity, that is affected by extreme distortions in the spacetime of realspace. Luke survived multiple hyperspace jumps without exploding. So, other than gravity wells, matter cast into hyperspace cannot interact with realspace matter.

This doesn't even begin to deal with the technologies in play aboard the DS2 (or any other large starship). Besides the hyperdrive, which may work by keeping a small bubble of hyperspace permanently in existence (Han's problems in Empire may have had to do with getting the bubble to expand enough to encompass the ship, just speculation), there are hypermatter reactors, which may also keep a permanent connection to hyperspace active. Perhaps hypermatter is in a containment field, to keep it from interacting with realspace matter or folding back into hyperspace. Then there is antigravity technology. I've read that it does not rely on hypermatter or hyperspace tech. It is a result of quantum manipulations of realspace matter. Maybe string manipulations. This technology would have been employed on a massive scale in the Death Star and the second Death Star. What would be the result of the incineration of these exotic materials?

They were firing the giant turbolaser in the last moments of DS2. That's an immense amount of energy to be shifting around, being converted from hypermatter to photons.

What does this stew produce when exploded? Not any conventional explosion, that's what. This would have been known to the Rebellion, to anyone involved in starflight at any time in the last 50,000 years or so of the Star Wars reality.

Anti-gravity technology may account for the slight damage done to Endor's moon by the impact of small fragments of the DS2 and at least one Star Destroyer (on an interesting side note, AG tech might have been absolutely necessary for starships, to lower their momentum, to allow them to reach realspace speeds approaching the speed of light, or to land on planets, even to keep their structural integrity during what would otherwise be ultra-high-G maneuvers). What exotic particles would be emitted when such exotic matter is incinerated? The interaction with the ordinary materials on the ship might be consumptive. The strange particle interactions might produce particles that would simply disappear, either into hyperspace or, because of their strange quantum attributes, to literally vanish.

Let's add in hypermatter. Large amounts of hypermatter might literally fold themselves and any nearby objects back into hyperspace. An energetic explosion combined with this would probably open a wormhole, or at least an unstable hyperspace portal, sucking the majority of matter caught in the explosion into hyperspace. What small bits of the shell of the DS2 that didn't get whisked away in exotic particle interactions or the hyperspace portal (or wormhole) would have been decelerated enough to go into orbit around Endor's moon, forming a temporary ring that would slowly degrade over a year or two. A few larger bits would have posed no problem because of the AG materials they contained.

The Star Wars fictional reality is a science fiction reality, with extremely advanced technologies and materials that would radically affect normal matter and energy interactions, even in an explosion. I should re-phrase - especially in an explosion. The Ewoks and their home on the sentry moon were saved because of the exotic materials and spacetime manipulation technologies employed as an everyday thing in this reality. Scenarios leaving them out may tell us what would happen in our harsh realm (like the nasty things that might happen to us in a cometary impact of Earth), but tell us nothing of what might happen in a science fiction reality.

This was such fun. I thank Curtis Saxton ("Kill all Ewoks.") and Gary M. Sarli ("Save the little critters.") and Wookieepedia for all the pure pleasure this has given me. If only I could as easily convince you all to vote Democratic in the upcoming election. Rpbird 07:40, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

the ewoks? killed? it is incorrect to say the ewoks would be drivin to extinction. most of the debris would be destroyed upon entering the atmosphere, and those that did would not have killed off half a speices. Maybe the ewoks we see are killed, but the moon was HUGE compared to the death star and ewoks on the other side of the planet wouldn't be killed. thoughts? P.h 16:00, 7 Jan 2006 (UTC)p.h
 * Two ways to answer this:
 * (wearing physics-guy hat) Doesn't matter.  Large chunks of debris entering the atmosphere would either hit the ground, creating impact craters and dust, or would burn up in the atmosphere, becoming dust.  (Things don't just go away when you burn them.) This dust would be blown across the atmosphere of the forest moon, blocking sunlight, lowering temperatures, and killing plant life.  It might also be highly poisonous, depending on how much of the dust was heavy metals, radioactive substances, and the like.  Depending on how much dust entered the atmosphere, it could be equivalent at best to a major volcanic eruption or industrial accident (nothing the ecosystem couldn't recover from), or at worst to the total destruction of all life on the moon that the Rebels couldn't evacuate.
 * (wearing Star Wars fan hat) The Ewoks and their homeworld seem fine in all of their canonical, post-Return of the Jedi appearances.  Clearly, the Force was with them.  &mdash; Silly Dan  17:58, 7 Jan 2006 (UTC)

{to physics guy} uh...........{to Star wars fan} o.k P.h 18:20, 7 Jan 2006 (UTC)p.h {P.S. wickit rocks!} [{sorry}]
 * I would think that any rescue and relief effort would be conducted by volunteers and planets not involved in any direct fighting, yet still supportive of the Rebel Alliance. With the terraforming technics most likely being refined in the GFFA, any post-apocalyptic Endor would probably be reseeded and regrown rather quickly. In the meantime, enough Ewoks could be transported off-world to help rebuild their society once returned. They're so small a few dozen transports or Mon Cal cruisers would be sufficient to take them to a fertile yet sparsely populated planet. Case solved. VT-16 12:22, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Even easier than that - the Ewoks cartoon showed more than enough magical artifacts for a completely mystical, unscientific "Poof - the planet is healed" answer to be within the realm of realism. jSarek 20:43, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
 * (nods) Maxi big, the Force. &mdash; Silly Dan 05:30, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Let me see if I get this straight: You think attributing summer to a guyin a hawiian shirt who says "dude" instead of axial tilt and orbit is "realistic"?  Better explanation for the Ewok cartoons is that they were a hallucination brought on by whatever they were smoking in those pipe.  Marooned implies its some kind of drug.  --Lowkey
 * I don't think it's realistic, it's just what appears to be part of the continuity of a space fantasy franchise which never claimed to be diamond-hard science fiction in the first place, what with the laser swords and the telekinesis and the noisy spaceships that ignore general and special relativity and all. In other words, "If you're wondering how they eat and breathe, and other science facts (la la la) Just repeat to yourself, 'It's just a show, I should really just relax.'" &mdash;Silly Dan (talk) 06:29, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Not to mention when you have little green trolls lifting up fighters with "magic", having weather controlled by "magic" is hardly a stretch. QuentinGeorge 06:36, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
 * And any hallucinogen that those two stranded survivors in Marooned may have been smoking that made them think they were in a verdant temperate coniferous rainforest rather than a toxic wasteland would also have made it impossible for them to walk, talk, or eat, so that doesn't work as a counter-explanation either. &mdash;Silly Dan (talk) 13:46, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
 * As for the "Kyp was imagining the planet Endor in the skies" explanation: the continuity there is a bit confusing. According to the Databank, only the ROTJ novel and the first version of the Dark Force Rising Sourcebook say it vanished.  The ROTJ novel might be overwritten by the possible appearance of the planet in the film, while the DFR sourcebook claim was left out of the Thrawn Trilogy Sourcebook four years later.  Besides, the planet disappearing without any effects on its moon between the Ewok TV movies and ROTJ is on the same level of weirdness as a 160 km 800 km metal sphere exploding near it with little or no effect. &mdash;Silly Dan (talk) 14:30, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I find this discussion intriguing, even if it does open up a can of worms regarding Star Wars vs. real physics (which gets into the whole Newtonian physics debate etc). The simple fact is that if a 900km metal sphere with energy sources capable of propelling it into hyperspace and vapourising planets from a quarter-million km away detonates less than 2,000km above a terrastial surface, the surface of that planet would be first irradiated, then incinerated when the blast hit it seconds later, and then buried under tons of molten metal. The only way that Endor could survive is if the planetary shield was operational. The problem is that there is limited evidence that Endor has a planetary shield. The projection of Endor and the DSII shown on Home One only shows a single shield beam emanating from the ground installation up to the station. The width of that beam when it intersects the ground would be dozens if not hundreds of km wide, enough to cover all Imperial ground assets on the surface. There is no need for the Empire to build dozens of shield generators to cover the entire surface of the planet, since 99% of the surface is valueless to the Empire. Certainly the situation with Echo Base on Hoth confirms that a single shield generator cannot cover an entire planet. Naturally, the fact that the Empire is prepared to build something so preposterously huge as the Death Star II in the first place may counterargue this since the resources to cover Endor with multiple shield generators would be minute compared to the scale of the actual project and the general paranoia following the destruction of Death Star I may have made this a viable idea, the ultimate failsafe mechanism to prevent forces landing elsewhere on the moon and assaulting one single shield generator. Naturally this would entail the construction of dozens if not hundreds of additional shield generators across the surface of Endor, of which there is no evidence for or against. However, the situation in the novel Star by Star, in which thousands of simultaneous impacts against the Coruscant planetary shields (presumably among the most most powerful in the Galaxy) causes them to overload and shut down may indicate that even a fully-operational planetary shield giving 100% coverage to Endor (a far smaller body) would be insufficient against the sheer bulk of the DSII's explosion and the resulting debris impacts. The fact that Endor does appear intact in subsequent material, however, makes much of the debate academic. Endor is intact in later materials, ergo there was a planetary shield. Just my 2 cents. --Werthead 17:54, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I believe it was the novelization that said the shield covered both the station and the moon it orbited. Which also explained why the rebel strike team had to go through an orbiting patrol. If the shield only covered parts of the moon, they could do what the Empire did on Hoth, and land beyond the barrier with a much larger force. Since we see rebels partying carefree hours later, Endor clearly did avoid the immidate incineration. Now, if we use the hypothesis of multiple operational shield generators, limited damage to Ewok population (those Mon Cal cruisers could probably pick up most of them anyway), extensive relocation and/or terraforming performed later on by Rebel-sympathetic worlds (I remember a book mentioning an Ewok colony somewhere else), then it might just work. Or all the Marvel issues after Endor could be showing a holographic interpretation of Endor as it was, for the benefit of ewoks either relocated or put inside a protective enclosure. ;P VT-16 18:05, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
 * It has to be noted, that the depiction of the huge Battlestation in Endor's sky is in no proportion to it's depicted position and size in space. If you look at the scenes in space, Death Star II seems to loom almost at a Lagrange point between Endor and the Sanctuary moon, which would make sense for such a battle station. It wouldn't waste sithloads of energy for fighting the moon's gravity and if there were plans to blow up the moon, why would you want to be so close to the explosion? I suppose the gas giant Endor has a powerful gravity field, which explains, why the Lagrange point would be closer to the moon. I'm not sure about this - the hologram the rebels use in the briefing room, shows the station to be extremely close to the moon, but that could have been just for visual demonstration of the shield and not actual scale. The proportions in space vary greatly from scene to scene. We see the Death Star as a huge celestial body in the sky over Endor's moon, with its superlaser clearly visible, as well as other details, which really wouldn't show, if the death star was really less than 1000km across, even at the closest imaginable point, so it has to be considered a mistake. We see the moon bulge from the Emperor's throne room, which gives some substance to my theory. The debris of the Death Star would just have dissolved between Endor and its moon, maybe forming a ring around the planet Endor. ->Yaahg D'sow Can't read watches - all those numbers...just weird!
 * I disregard any information about the planet Endor "vanishing" or "being destroyed", if such a disaster really happened with the moon already populated, we shouldn't be discussing such a minor event like a death star meteor shower. Yaahg D&#39;sow 13:00, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
 * and again like so many other convos going on, this is another topic which people are pointlessly speculating about. Jedi Dude 13:11, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Maybe that the holographic map of Endor and DS2 aboard the Home One is depicting the real state of the two bodies. Maybe it also depicts the rotation in a realistic proportion. In this case Endor is rotating at alot of RPM and DS2 is circling it with almost ludicrous speed (just joking). The rotation speed is so high, that the gravity force is not big enough to hold DS2 in relative position to Endor. So the death star shield has to pull DS2. In the moment when the shield is destroyed, DS2 begins to move away from Endor because of centrifugal force. Then Lando flies in, destroys the reactor and flies out. DS2 drifts away from Endor in these minutes. In the moment DS2 explodes, it is so far away from Endor, that it isn't harmed by the explosion. I think this is a very good theory. And it is completly relying on film material and real physics! --TeakHoken84.173.1.91 00:25, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Maybe the remaining Rebel fleet fired upon the debris, either destroying it or breaking it into smaller pieces that would burn up quickly in the atmosphere.-- Lord Oblivion Sith holocron[[Image:Oldsith.png|30px]] 03:04, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
 * As I said above, if it burns up in the atmosphere, that just means more dust settles. But there are sources, discussed in the article, which explain that the Rebels somehow "took care" of the debris which could have landed on Endor. &mdash;Silly Dan (talk) 03:38, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Large quantities of stuff burn up in Earth's atmosphere all the time.-- Lord Oblivion Sith holocron[[Image:Oldsith.png|30px]] 03:40, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Featured article?
This article is excellent in my opinion. Could it potentially be featured? MC Otaku 08:38, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
 * It would take an otaku to suggest that :-P but I don't see why not. KEJ 08:40, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Symbol of Doom
Look in the upper left of this page. DS2 is overhanging and seems to be a symbol of Wookieepedia, which is in my opinion a good project. But DS2 is a symbol of mass murder! And with the backround of this article, it is also a symbol for acting in a good cause but ignoring collateral damage (the destruction of Endor and the killing of thousands of cuddly Ewoks). Do you think this should be a symbol for Wookieepedia? This is like using the christian cross (a symbol for a execution tool) for a religion! Wait,... now I'm a little confused... --TeakHoken84.173.1.91 00:43, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

vote
We should have a vote, did it happen or not. I say It didn't P.h2 02:24, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
 * We shouldn't have a vote: we don't determine canon. Lucasfilm does, they said it didn't happen. People who want to argue it can take it to a message board if they insist. &mdash;Silly Dan (talk) 02:27, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

I know it wouldn't determine cannon, it s just for fun P.h2 02:31, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
 * We don't do fun here. .  .  .  .  03:41, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Star Wars is not fun.-- Lord Oblivion Sith holocron[[Image:Oldsith.png|30px]] 03:44, 5 December 2006 (UTC)