Talk:Form VII/Legends

Out of Universe?
What is out of the universe in this article? I read it and found nothing. Please specify. TopAce
 * The end: "In KOTOR 2, occurring some 3950 years before the Clone Wars"... And the Jedi Guardians being mentioned, of course. - Sikon [ Talk ] 14:21, 27 Oct 2005 (UTC)

I removed the KOTOR and Jedi Guardian parts, and changed the line a bit. How's that? 70.17.148.132 16:26, 27 Oct 2005 (UTC)

Echuu
I don't remember Echuu being mentioned as a master of Vaapad in the Battlegrounds game. Have I forgotten, has it been mentioned somewhere else, or is it simply an assumption based on him having been Windu's Padawan? --Fade 16:35, 16 Nov 2005 (UTC)

- Sounds an assumption to me. What may be removed because since Vaapad needed the knowledge of the all forms, so Windu in theory knew all forms and had the priviledge to teach any of these forms to Echuu. - TopAce 23:07, 17 Nov 2005 (UTC)


 * I vote for removing Echuu - i know he is Mace's Padawan, but still, there are too many sources which indicate that Mace / Sora / Depa / Vos(a bit) are the only learners of Vaapad in the Order. Darth Kevinmhk 03:22, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

ONLY sith lord?
why does it say darth sidious is the only sith lord to use form vii when darth maul uses it aswell? i know it is an adaptation but surely it still counts. please prove me wrong if i am. elpablo


 * Palpatine was a master of Ataru as it is stated in the Ataru article. - TopAce 19:43, 4 February 2006 (UTC)


 * And where's the proof for that, anyway? --GrandAdmiralJello 20:46, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Sidious, Master of Vaapad?
Just out of curiosity, wouldn't Sidious be a master of Juyo, instead of Vaapad? I'm asking this because we know that Mace Windu was the Jedi Master who modified and embellished upon Juyo to create Vaapad. So how could Sidious be a master of Vaapad without having been instructed in the form by Mace Windu? Its certainly possible that Sidious mastered Juyo, but since Windu specifically developed Juyo into Vaapad, how could Sidious be noted as a "Vaapad master"?--Knightfall 00:30, 5 Dec 2005 (UTC)
 * Good point. Technically, Sidious would have only mastered Juyo. I also recall something about Palpatine once saying he thought there were only six forms of lightsaber combat, but that was until Mace created Vaapad. -- SFH 00:35, 5 Dec 2005 (UTC)
 * Sure, Palpatine once said that, but recall that Darth Maul is __known__ to be a Juyo user. Who do you think taught it to him? --GrandAdmiralJello 20:46, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, shouldn't we note that Sidious was a master of Juyo, and not Vaapad in its completed form? Actually, what's the source for Sidious mastering Juyo/Vaapad anyway?--Knightfall 00:38, 5 Dec 2005 (UTC)
 * I don't think there is any (novelization maybe?) apart from the fact that he fights in a way similar to Windu and that he appears to be using a Vaapad technique with the lightning. --Master Starkeiller 22:01, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I think Mace certainly would have noticed if Palpatine threw Vaapad back at him. IIRC the text notes Mace as its only living master during their duel, so it can't be intended for Sidious to have been using it. There's no indication Sora Bulq knew Sidious even existed, and Sids couldn't have learned it from anyone else, except maybe Dooku learning it from Sora and passing it on. And Dooku doesn't seem to view Vaapad as a threat to him. Yrfeloran 22:16, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
 * This makes sense though: "Palpatine also used his own version of Vaapad by using his reflected lightning and his own pain to fuel his continuing attacks". Even if Palpy "learned" Vaapad from his duel with Windu based on his Juyo mastery, this use of it seems to make sense. --Master Starkeiller 22:28, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I would rather vote that Juyo mastery was already able to "generate" that so-called "superconductor loop" to reflect incoming stuff back (after all, Juyo IS Form VII). That's why Mace can only even the duel with his Vaapad: Not because Vaapad can't defeat Sidious, i guess it is because the duel is Vaapad VS Juyo - that's why only shatterpoint ability could break out this infinite loop. And, if this reflecting belongs to Vaapad alone, even if Sidious learn it at once, it was only part of Vaapad, thus Sidious could not be a Master. Mace mentioned that even though Grievous copy his style, it was not Vaapad. Thus even Sidious copy 1 of the Vaapad's core concept, it was still not Vaapad. And as Yrfeloran said, it is far too unlikely for Sidious to have really mastered the whole Vaapad. Therefore, I vote for removing Sidious as Master of Vaapad (possible or not) once and for all. Thank you and Good Editing. Darth Kevinmhk 03:03, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Nowhere in either canon or EU is Sideous EVER mentioned as a practitioner of Juyo. That was Maul's style.  On that note, there is no way that he could EVER have learned Vaapad.  The style was created by Mace Windu and only shared with a small group of Jedi.  If this idiotic theory persists, I would love to know exactly where you acquired your information from.  Lord Scholar  02:17,  7 August 2006 (UTC)
 * 1. Mace created Vaapad, Juyo existed 4000 years ago. 2. Nowhere did canon state Sidious know Ataru too, for that matter. Darth Kevinmhk 02:24, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
 * The Ep3 Visual Dictionary states Palpy was a user of Ataru. --beeurd 15:18, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
 * The exact page number? I read it thousands of times! I don't believe I have missed it! Darth Kevinmhk 15:19, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Didn't Nick Gilliard say that Palpatine knows every form, and switches between them at will?

Dark Sidious and Juyo???
The only people I believed to have ever used Vaapad effectively is Master Windu, Sora Bulq, and Windu's former padawan and council member Depa Billaba, since Windu and Bulq were both responsible for it creation and Windu taught it to Depa.

After being taught and studying the other 6 lightsaber combat, Darth Maul also developed his own lightsaber style based on Juyo and combined his technique with his double-bladed lightsaber.

Though I'm sure that Darth Sidious is familiar enough with Juyo, from what I heard and read he appears to use a fighting form similar to Ataru though he combines more stabs and thrusting motions. Darth Niggie Dec 5
 * So Darth Sidious is now a confirmed Juyo parcticioner? Huzzah! Huzzah! But what is the source. Derek Yoda&#39;s friend 01:48, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
 * No source. Not canon. Will not be in article. Atarumaster88  [[Image:Jedi_Order.jpg|20px]] ( Audience Chamber ) 02:42, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Sids uses the opening stance for Juyo three or four times, and his fighting style fits the exact description of Juyo as in the Star Wars Insider 62, all evidence points to Sids using Juyo, but no source...still. Derek Yoda&#39;s friend 22:59, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
 * The opening stance of Juyo? Is that sourced in itself? The whole Sids saber form thing smacks of Original Research to me. Atarumaster88  [[Image:Jedi_Order.jpg|20px]] ( Audience Chamber ) 04:31, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I apologize I did not know that the Opening Stance for Juyo was not sourced. Derek Yoda&#39;s friend 04:09, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Juyo?
The article is Vaapad-centred, what about the older Juyo form? What do we know about its strength, advantages, disadvantages before Mace completed it with Vaapad? - TopAce 11:29, 6 Jan 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, we know it's cool and effective, since Maul used it. I think more info could be found in KotOR II. --Master Starkeiller 12:21, 6 Jan 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, Maul did use it, but I am more curious about how it had been used with a single sabre. Maul used a dual-blade Sith lightsaber, that is basically different from any other single-sabre wielders. Do you say KotOR II? I once came across a site that compares the lightsaber forms based on KotOR II. If those are the real statistics in-game, I say I wouldn't consider it canon. It has some very weird things, setting up Makashi weak against a single opponent and Niman as the "Good for everything form". Makashi happens to be the best in "one vs. one". As for Niman, we saw if wielded very effectively by Coleman Trebor who could defend himself for two blaster shots and get hit by the third. - TopAce 19:41, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I think the essence of this is that Juyo is incomplete. The most we can say is that its moves are staccatoed and unpredictable, which we can see when Maul uses the hilt of his lightsaber to unexpectedly hit Qui-Gon in the face, then run him through quickly.--66.231.106.12 05:59, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Juyo has the same strengths and weaknesses as Vaapad. Vaapad is pretty much an upgrade of Juyo, so its pretty much the same, only more extreme.
 * As explained in KOTOR II, Juyo is more of an extreme focus on one opponent. Vaapad, at least as I understand it, focuses on one opponent, but also incorporates emotion to it. Jedi who use Vaapad put themselves in danger of falling to the dark side, and it a strong focus on the Light Side to keep their emotions from overwhelming them, someone like Mace Windu.--Atlas503 07:03, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Coincidental as it was that Samuel Jackson asked for a Violet lightsaber, if you think about it, Violet is a combination of blue, the color of the lightsaber of a Jedi Guardian (the combat masters of the Jedi), and red, the color usually associated with the Sith. It is the fine line between the two colors...and Vaapad is the fine line between Jedi combat and Sith rage. Perhaps Lucas intended this?--Atlas503 07:03, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Juyo is High Galactic

 * According to The Dark Forces Saga, "...adapted Form VII lightsaber combat (or Juyo in High Galactic)". Maybe we should mention in the article that Juyo is actaully a term of High Galactic to describe Form VII? Darth Kevinmhk 04:01, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

New image

 * Just uploaded this great image. Should we use it? Darth Kevinmhk 11:22, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Someone else already uploaded an identical image a more than a month ago (on Feb. 28) for the Force Lightning page. See:

Doesn't Wookieepedia have rules against having intentical images under different filenames? 70.109.224.125 16:46, 30 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Oops. Doesnt know that. I checked Mace's gallery, and it was not linked there, so I uploaded one... Darth Kevinmhk 08:33, 31 March 2006 (UTC)


 * And fine, i will deal with my mistake, but the point is, should we use the image (the earlier one then) in the main article as "A visual representation of the superconducting loop between two Form VII masters." ? Darth Kevinmhk 08:53, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Palpatines Awareness
How could Palpatine have only heard of six forms when he studied Juyo and it still falls under the catagory of Form Seven.
 * Everyone knows Palpatine is a big liar. Darth Kevinmhk 04:38, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Actually, I noticed that Palpatine doesn't once lie. He understates, he exaggerates and he leaves stuff out, but he doesn't once downwrite lie. user:Darth Vatrir


 * No offese but he does say this "I love democracy, I love the Republic" and then he goes and destroys democracy and the republic, and turns it to a speciesist Empire, with no Democracy and not a Republic. Derek Yoda&#39;s friend 04:13, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Vaapad died?

 * Where is the source that indicates that Vaapad didn't survive after the OJO. TNO have revealed that they do indeed know lightsaber combat forms and i doubt mace didnt make a recording of his teachings.
 * So, do you have any source which specify Vaapad survived the Purge? When not even Shii-Cho, Makashi, Soresu, Ataru, Shien/Djem So, Niman or Juyo was canonically confirmed surviving the Purge, I very doubt Vaapad survived. Darth Kevinmhk 02:09, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
 * something obviously survived and I doubt that once they regained control of the jedi temple and all the scrolls on Ossus and the fact that Jacen Solo remembers seeing a holorecord of Mace Windu, and if they had this info it is also likely that they had info on saber combat. Kenobis writing may also have info. they could not destroy all the records and even if they did, they could be recovered, and yoda and obiwan could have taken those files before leaving the temple. Point is they seem to know lightsaber combat in NJO.
 * All of the above was just speculation. No canonical source confirmed that the seven forms survived the Purge except Luke mirroring Vader aboard DS2, thus carrying Form V onwards. Darth Kevinmhk 14:57, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
 * So there is no canon source for either, thus it is speculation and being which should be removed. Lightsaber form didnt die during the purge.
 * We might as well just open this page to fanon as that what many seem to want. Vaapad dying? No source and unlikely.
 * Actually, both Star Wars: Galaxies and Hero's Guide, written from a post Yavin POV, IIRC, have information on the saber forms. Atarumaster88  [[Image:Jedi_Order.jpg|20px]] ( Audience Chamber ) 05:51, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Darth Bane and Vaapad
In Path of Distruction, one of the Sith students, Sirak, is said to use "the jabs and thrusts of Vaapad." Doesn't this directly contradict the fact that Windu created Vaapad? Duke Starhopper 21:28, 30 September 2006 (UTC) --Black Jack Scarron 23:26, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I'd say yes, it does. -  Angel Blue 451 [[Image:Jedi_Order.jpg|20px]](Holonet) 21:30, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
 * It could be retconned to be Mace invented the Jedi version of Vaapad.
 * No, the lightsaber combat forms are the same whethere jedi or sith, there isn't a jedi version or a sith version of any form, this along with other issues such as a few deaths are under discussion in the senate hall as they are contradicting other sources, please go and input your views. Jedi Dude
 * Drew K. signed my copy of the book and he told me it was just a mistake on his part. He knows Vaapad didn't exist then. There was only Juyo. Drew K. was really tired one night when he typed that error. He told me to just pretend it says Juyo.
 * In Star Wars Insider #92, they have a possible retcon. but I don't like it at all. Drew Karpyshyn already said it was a mistake, so I don't see a need for a retcon when the AUTHOR HIMSELF said IT WAS A MISTAKE.and to JUST PRETEND IT SAYS 'JUYO'.--Jedi Kasra 03:57, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Canon Issue
In Shatterpoint it is said that Mace created Juyo/Vaapad how is this justrafied for KOTOR II? Valin &quot;Tnu&quot; &quot;Shido&quot; Suul 04:17, 7 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Mace didn't create Juyo. He just refined it into Vaapad.-- Lord Oblivion Sith holocron[[Image:Oldsith.png|30px]] 04:40, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Too Many Pictures?
Too me, it seems there may be too many images rather than too few. It seems distracting to the article as a whole. Opinions? User-Name 00:38, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
 * The pictures all seem nesacery so I think we should just add more information. Derek Yoda&#39;s friend 02:29, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Fan Vid
[]

I was watching this fan video and the way these guys fought intrigued me. I'm wondering, is their fighting style closer to Juyo or Ataru? (Don't criticise me for putting this here, I don't know of any other sights that allow hyperlinks, please tell me of them.) Darth Vatrir Ookami, the White Wolf
 * Using four tildes would make your life a hell of a lot easier. As for the fighting styles, they exsist purely on paper - there is no practical application of any of these styles to actual duelling. Nor is there any correlations between the forms and what you see on the screen. It's pure BS. .  .  .  .  22:47, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Regarding their practical application, why aren't there any. A lot of these styles are based on real-world ones and could easily be invented by adapting real-world ones. Darth Vatrir
 * I'd say the style is closer to wǔshù.
 * I'm talking about lightsaber combat styles, not actual styles. Darth Vatrir
 * No, there are no physical lightsaber combat styles that can be applied to the real world. They're a bunch of nonsense. .  .  .  .  05:52, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Oh well, its still a good vid. I REGRET NOTHING! Darth Vatrir (pronounced Va-Trear) (ps: Why can't the combat styles be applied to real-world fighting? I mean, we won't achieve the speed and skill of a force-user but their still do-able. Perhaps we should continue this new topic on the main lightsaber combat discussion page.)
 * Seeing that real people don't have Jedi reflexes, you would probably end up maimed or dead if you tried to apply lightsaber techniques to real melee combat...if you're using real weapons that is.-- Lord Oblivion Sith holocron[[Image:Oldsith.png|30px]] 01:12, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm self-studying swordfighting and one of the techniques I'm actually using is LIGHTSABER COMBAT!!!  Of course, I don't have Force-powered abilities... :-) But I've tried out all the Forms and I have to say...  Nick Gilliard is a genius!  Not only do the Forms work, but the techniques correspend with the mindsets.  I'm currently developing Vaapad now.  Probably I'm gonna write more about this in the "Lightsaber combat" article.  Gel Maethor 14:48, 21 December 2006 (UTC)


 * PS, Lord Vatrir, I saw the video, Judging from the use of acrobating moves, I have to say that the two guys are Form IV: Ataru.  In real life, Form IV: Ataru may be analogous to Kung Fu (specifically Wushu).  To my untrained eye, the guys in the video seem to be Kung Fu exponents.Gel Maethor 14:56, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, since their fighting style reminded me more of Darth Maul than Yoda or Qui-Gon Jinn, I was thinking that ,if they existed in the Star Wars universe, they might be amatur Juyo practitioners. Darth Vatrir (pronounced Va-Trear)

Practitioners
^^^^^^ I think that sums up what Sidious did and didnt know don't you? Darth Byss 22:19, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Do not add "rumored" practitioners without a really good explanation, not just your personal theories. Exar Kun is not. Sidious is not confirmed to have known Juyo. Atarumaster88  [[Image:Jedi_Order.jpg|20px]] ( Audience Chamber ) 17:32, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Pertaining to whether Sidious is right-handed or left-handed with a lightsaber, he's ambidextrous. He's just that good. Sidious' abilities are beyond anything we've experienced. It took a really long time for Nick (Gillard) to work out Sidious' fighting style, and he has a style that's constantly changing. His style is one in which you'll never get the better of him. It is ambiguous --- he'll fight less than you and draw you in; you're a sucker if you think you're going to better him. Sidious is a master of every weapon and every style. - Nick Gillard


 * Sure. But it never says anything about Juyo, so that remains speculation. And Gillard also said he and his stunt crew don't consider the 7 forms. Atarumaster88  [[Image:Jedi_Order.jpg|20px]] ( Audience Chamber ) 23:15, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Still...we could write it in saying that he mastered all combat forms and we would still be in agreement with canon. Darth Byss 01:57, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
 * It's already on Sidious' article, I believe. Atarumaster88  [[Image:Jedi_Order.jpg|20px]] ( Audience Chamber ) 04:37, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Good. Darth Byss 16:49, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Juyo and Vaapad should be seperated
I think to avoid confusion to readers of this article, I think Juyo and Vaapad should be seperated, because they are to different things so they should be put on different pages. Derek Yoda&#39;s friend 02:26, 13 February 2007 (UTC) Maybe we can just seperate them within the article, noting the differences in the two styles or something, since the article seems more oriented towards Vaapad. Make it kind of like the Shien/Djem So article, seperating the two. --Hencho414 13:12, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
 * But they are both Form VII, aren't they? I don't have too big of an opinion on this one, I'm just curious. Atarumaster88  [[Image:Jedi_Order.jpg|20px]] ( Audience Chamber ) 03:04, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
 * It seems fine as it is. They are both form VII, but I think Juyo was known as an incomplete form, and Mace Windu completed it with Vaapad. - N ighthawk L eader    05:32, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I thought Juyo was a complete, effective form, and Mace Windu just created Vaapad as an upgrade. Darth Vatrir
 * History is sort of foggy, but yes, that's true. The new book should have more on that. Atarumaster88  [[Image:Jedi_Order.jpg|20px]] ( Audience Chamber ) 19:48, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Windu the creator?
How can Mace Windu have been the creator of the form if it was used by both the exile as well as Kavar?
 * Windu created Vaapad. The exile and Kavar used Juyo. Also, please remember to sign your comment using four tidles: ( ~ ) - TopAce 11:08, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Got it - and thanks for the tip. Gustafar 10:00, 11 March 2007 (UTC)