Talk:Gilad Pellaeon/Legends

This article states that Pellaeon could not have had the rank of captain until after the Battle of Endor. According to Heir to the Empire, though, Pellaeon merely took command after the Chimaera's original commanding officer had been killed--this does not mean that Pellaeon did not hold the rank of captain (it is known that aboard many naval vessels, there can be more than one person of the rank of captain, one as commanding officer, the other as executive, even if they are of the same rank). Further, the word "captain" and the commanding officer of a vessel are and can be used interchangeably, even if the commanding officer is a man of higher rank such as a commodore or even an admiral (but as long as he is not commanding more than one vessel), so it's quite possible that Pellaeon had already been a captain at the Endor and merely took over when the commanding officer was killed. Therefore, it's quite possible--additionally, given Pellaeon's age by the time of Heir to the Empire--that he might have, in fact, been the same Pellaeon commanding an Acclamator during the Clone Wars.--SOCL 01:20, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
 * all quite possible, even plausible, but I am uncertain if the source material leaves open the gap between rank and billet.--Eion 01:19, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
 * I do not believe any of the source material available puts Pellaeon at any rank lower than captain at any point in between. Again, given his age and years of service (additionally a few mentions he makes of being a captain for so long), it seems possible that in the chaos of the Clone Wars he was promoted quickly to captain and then, later, after the rise of the Empire, he was held at captain until his age caught-up with his rank.  Then, given the events at Endor and the virtual collapse of a functioning Imperial government, it would seem likely he would remain a captain until someone got around to promoting him (i.e. in the novel Darksaber he is ranked at Vice Admiral, three ranks above Captain).  Further, the former captain/commanding officer of the Chimaera (the man who was killed at Endor) may not have been a regular Captain but a Line Captain, and Pellaeon was merely the executive officer.  It is open to debate, but it seems more than likely that it is the same person.--SOCL 01:26, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
 * I'm just not familiar enough with the source material to confirm your theory, but I've always suspected a confusion between the rank and the billet in the EU; it is a common problem in Sci-fi writing to assume the "One Captain" rule refers to rank as well as title. I see no problem in changing it.--Eion 01:30, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Actually, I'd say this passage from The New Essential Guide to Characters, pg. 130, explicitly states he held the rank of Captain before taking the position of captain on the Chimaera: "By the time of the Battle of Endor, he had become the Chimaera's second in command. The fierce fighting above the forest moon decimated the Imperial fleet and killed the Destroyer's captain.  Realizing the battle was lost, Captain Pellaeon assumed command and ordered all surviving warships to retreat to Annaj." JSarek 05:01, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Eh, you could read that to say that the moment the Chimaera's CO died, Pallaeon became the new CO, or you could read it as he was already a Captain by rank and merely became CO by virtue of the death of his CO, given the common brain-bug regarding the "one captain" rule, I'd say this is inconclusive at best, but promisingly vague. Thanks for the quotation--Eion 00:06, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * I doubt that an XO of an Imperial destroyer would be a Captain in rank. It is likely that the New Essential Guide to Characters is refering to him as "Captain Pellaeon" beacuse that is how he is best known by standard EU-fans: as a Captain in the Thrawn Trilogy. --SparqMan 01:52, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Why doubt it? There's precedent for it in earthly navies, it helps explain how he would have enough seniority to order the retreat (granted, that takes more than just a captain rank, but it doesn't hurt), it allows the NEGTC quote to be taken at face value (it clearly states that Captain Pellaeon assumed command, not that he became captain by assuming command), and it helps make Pellaeon's history make more sense (because he's been serving WAY too long to be only a Commander by the time of Endor).  I see no reason not to think he held the rank of Captain long before he obtained the position of captain.  JSarek 08:53, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Chimera was the ranking ship at the time, IIRC, and that's why he was able to call the retreat (as CO of the ship). Another view to consider: the Empire was highly corrupt, with many high level postings assigned on bribes, connections and nepotism. Pellaeon may have lacked those connections to advance. --SparqMan 16:21, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Yes, Chimaera was acting command ship in the absence of Executor, which partly explains Pellaeon's authority. Still, a Captain giving the order would make it slightly less out-of-place (though not totally so, since there were still admirals on the scene).  At any rate, that's not my primary point, which is A) We have real world precedent for XOs to hold the rank of Captain, B) We have reason to believe Pellaeon probably held Captain rank, including direct textual evidence that states he did (and requiring us to ignore its face value to interpret it otherwise), and C) We have no reason to *doubt* that he held Captain rank.  Given all of this, I think it's fair to call him a Captain unless later contraindicated for some reason.  JSarek 19:31, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * For those of you not familiar with the idea of Captains as XOs, or warships with more than one Captain onboard (one as CO, the other as XO), look at the United States Navy. You'll find that all Aircraft Carriers (CV or CVN) and Amphibious Assault Ships (LHA, LHD, or LHD(R)) in the fleets have Captains as both commanding officers and executive officers (if not a Captain, then what's called a Commander/P or an officer of the rank of Commander who is already listed for promotion to Captain).  Here's a good website to reference: http://www.chinfo.navy.mil/navpalib/factfile/ffiletop.html#ships.  Just thought I'd put in some real-world prespective....--SOCL 00:59, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * It is entirely possible that Chimaera was commanded by an Admiral. That would explain why it was the senior vessel after the Executor was destroyed. Or it could simply be that the man on the Acclamator was Pellaeon's father. --User:SFH
 * I agree with SFH. Pellaeon, while not briliant, is a highly capable officer. To be held at the same rank for ~25yrs during the naval expansion of the Empire, especially after the culling of the Clone Wars and various purges is highly unlikely--User:Erl

Rank of Commander
The article now states that Pellaeon took command of the Chimaera while holding the rank of commander. There has been a whole discussion concerning this, but I do not see anywhere confirm/concluded that Pellaeon was in fact a commander at the time of Endor... I believe that putting that particular line in the article makes a definite statement without any confirmed facts.
 * Yes, that's exactly what it does - it makes a definite statement without any confirmed facts, which is exactly what we don't want to do (in fact, what little evidence we have - the quote I mentioned above, points to, though perhaps does not confirm, a rank of captain). If we don't know the answer, we don't put it in the article.  jSarek
 * Sorry, you're stating a state of affairs, not a correction you made. My apologies for misreading your statement.  Yes, this is not desirable and should be changed.  jSarek 02:53, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Where does the claim in the [Freja_Covell|Covell] article that Pellaeon promoted him to general rank come from? Because that would imply that Pellaeon was at least a Commodore by rank, or possibly "Commander" (the analog in some WEG stuff, and the real-life Dutch/Russo-Baltic rank system)... --McEwok 01:46, 16 Aug 2005 (UTC)

Age
We know he was 15 when he lied about his age to get into the Raithal Academy, and then went on to the Judicial Forces (similar to the FBI or Homeland Security, I imagine). Heir to the Empire states that he'd served the starfleet for 50 years, and IIRC the Thrawn Trilogy Sourcebook  states that he was 65 at the Battle of Endor. So assuming that he refers to "the starfleet" as both the Republic and Imperial fleets, the years would line up and make him born in 61 BBY. Before I make any changes, does Zahn's inconsistencies with Lucas' Clone Wars timeline mess any of this up? --SparqMan 18:29, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Actually, what you just did was rationalize the inconsistencies.--SOCL 19:24, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * How are they inconsistent? Lies into academy at 15, serves for 50 years, was 65 at Endor. Those don't conflict. I'm just using them to get his proper birth year. --SparqMan 20:58, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * I got the age from Leland Chee's Holocron.. QuentinGeorge 21:04, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * How are they inconsistent? I'm not sure if this was directed at me, but I never said they were.  I stated that your rationalized the, if any inconsistencies, nothing else.--SOCL 05:30, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * I stated the information available on his age and then subtracted. I'm not sure how that was a rationalization of inconsistencies. Feel free to add in something constructive here. --SparqMan 11:26, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Succession box question
Shouldn't his predecessor as de facto head of state be Moff Disra rather than Xandel Carivus? Disra seemed to be in charge, at least politically, during most of the Hand of Thrawn Duology. &mdash; Silly Dan 17:23, 20 Aug 2005 (UTC)
 * All of these succession boxes should be done away with, because there are no clear answers. --SparqMan 22:39, 20 Aug 2005 (UTC)
 * I think Disra was the dominant personality amongst the moffs, but was technically equal to them. Kuralyov 16:59, 21 Aug 2005 (UTC)

If Xandel Carivus's page states the following: Carivus was the last person to attempt to claim the title of "Galactic Emperor"; as such, his death could be considered the dividing line between the Galactic Empire and Imperial Remnant, then why does the succession box identify Gilad Pellaeon as the Head of State of Galactic Empire ? Wouldn't it be much more appropiate for the succession box other than the one for "Supreme Commander of the Imperial Fleet" to read "Head of State of the Imperial Remnant" and say that he was preceded by "None, eventually Xandel Carivus as Galactic Emperor?
 * No; see the talk page for Xandel Carivus as to why I think so.Kuralyov 21:56, 31 Aug 2005 (UTC)

OK, let's allow the succession box discussion to continue in the talk page for Xandel Carivus.


 * Sources cited in the talk age for Supreme Commander of the Imperial Fleet have made it more or less clear that Pellaeon was not the first person to hold the title, so until a timeline of all holders of that title can be properly set down, the succession box should read that he was preceded by "Unknown" instead of "None". --Ace_ETP 23:22, 13 Sep 2005 (UTC)
 * Further, it should be made clear that just because the Empire allied itself and became a member-state of the Galactic Alliance, and that Pellaeon was made its military supreme commander does not mean that Pellaeon is no longer Supreme Comander of the Imperial Fleet. He can quite easily still hold both posts within both governments.--SOCL 00:11, 19 Oct 2005 (UTC)
 * Except for the fact that The Unseen Queen states that he retired after the end of the YV war. Kuralyov 00:13, 19 Oct 2005 (UTC)
 * I stand corrected. My apologies.--SOCL 00:15, 19 Oct 2005 (UTC)
 * No problem. Kuralyov 00:15, 19 Oct 2005 (UTC)

Pictures
Are there really the only two pictures we have of him? Could someone who has the comic scan in his appearance from The Best Blades? Kuralyov 02:51, 1 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * I added an image from the Heir to the Empire comic book series, but it doesn't quite fit where it has been placed. Sadly, the only image of Pellaeon between the time of Thrawn and when he became a Grand Admiral is the image called "Admiral Pellaeon" in the old The Essential Chronology; if we could manage to get a scan of that and but it with the subsection of 'Rise of the Imperial Remnant', things would be better off.--SOCL 03:01, 1 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * Done. Someone with better aesthetic sense than me can decide where to put it. &mdash;Darth Culator   (talk)  04:13, 1 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * There's a new pic in the New Essential Chronology. Thanos6 20:12, 1 Nov 2005 (UTC)