Talk:Darth Traya/Archive2

 This page is an archive of the discussion of an article. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's current talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. =Mysterious Past== Or it could be suggested that she did not find Malachor until well after Revan's departure; otherwise she likely would have accompanied him in his search for the "True" Sith.

Why?

According to the in-game dialog - which supercede the Chronicles whenever the two overlap- Revan did not go back to Malachor V after the Jedi Civil War. He remembered what he had found on Malachor when he first visited and then went off to battle the Ancient/True Sith.

And if I'm mistaken, even if Revan *did* go back to Malachor V, KotOR 2 could imply that she *did* briefly accompany Revan. She begins the game in the Ebon Hawk if you recall. Indeed, she could very well have been travelling with Revan, only for him to dump her (and the droids) and continue on his way alone as he had always intended. She then starts hunting for the Exile while in the Hawk, which leads us to the start of KotOR II... personally, I don't think that. I think she followed the footsteps of Revan and *found* the Ebon Hawk, and then used it to find the Exile...

Regardless, in EITHER case, the "Guardian of Malachor V", or, if you prefer, "The Headmistress of the Trayus Academy" suggestion seems perfectly valid to me.

Whilst the following has *no place* in the article, since it is pure, unadulterated speculation, given what is actually revealed in the game, these are the conclusions I came to:


 * Kreia (or Kae, if you want to think like that) was exiled from the Order after Revan led his breakaway faction of the Jedi to war. The (majority of the) council blamed her teachings for Revan's "fall". Obviously Revan hadn't truly fallen at this point, but he'd certainly gone against their judgement and undermined their authority, which to them was probably bad enough
 * Kreia joins the battle against the Mandalorians. If she's Kae, then Yusanis accompanies her, and they get frisky and whatnot.
 * At some point during the war Revan uncovers Malachor V and starts delving into its hidden Sith teachings. (He may have even found it before he joined the wars, and been a 'secret Sith Lord' in hiding, ala Sidious, all along, but it's not necessary for him to have been so)
 * After the destruction of the mandalorians at Malachor, when the "Sith teachings start sweeping through the ranks", Revan designates Kreia (or Darth Traya as she might be going by now) as the person in charge of the Trayus Academy at Malachor, and the trainer of his Sith assassins. As far as anyone else knows however, she died in the wars. (Especially if she's Kae, since Yusanis is still alive and would not expect her to abandon him, so he'll be reporting that she died. Probably.)
 * Revan does *not* tell Malak about the Trayus Academy on Malachor. He instructs him in the ways of the Sith, but does not tell him from where the knowledge came. Probably one of the things that pisses him off the most.
 * Revan and Malak find the Star Forge and return as Sith Lords.
 * Kreia is probably training Nihilus throughout all this time.
 * Throughout the war, when Revan needs people assassinated etc - he'd get in contact with the academy at Malachor, and they'd send people out to do the job
 * Revan is betrayed by Malak. Since Malak knows nothing of the Academy on Malachor, he never calls upon their services. Kreia probably figures out what's happened, either through the Force or some other means.
 * Kreia's loyal to Revan, not Malak, she doesn't reveal her presence or that of the Academy to him. She continues training Nihilus.
 * Revan returns and beats Malak. Whether he goes dark or light (officially light), there is eventually a civil war on Korriban, from which Sion flees.
 * Sion learns of the Trayus Academy and travels there. Trains under Darth Traya etc.
 * Sion and Nilhilus eventually cast Traya down... and the rest is history.

There are probably a few flaws in the above but it has been a while since I sifted through all the dialog files.

It doesn't matter anyway, I'm sure the above will be made obsolete by some official comic or sourcebook or something... which'll just introduce a whole new bunch of continuity flubbs.(Ulicus 13:46, 21 May 2006 (UTC)) -
 * "According to the in-game dialog - which supercede the Chronicles whenever the two overlap- Revan did not go back to Malachor V after the Jedi Civil War." He did. Kreia mentions that in the end. Revan came to Malachor, left the Ebon Hawk there and only then departed to the Unknown Regions. (And by the way, why shouldn't Malak know about the Trayus Academy? He fought at Malachor V, right? - Sikon [ Talk ] 17:30, 22 May 2006 (UTC))
 * Yeah, checked, you're right - Revan goes go back to Malachor V. *Shrug* Maybe he just avoided Kreia. I just can't accept that she was exiled after the Jedi Civil War, since Kavar says she 'died' in the Mandalorian Wars. I still think it's likely she was a Sith throughout the JCW, even if she wasn't stationed on Malachor or known as Darth Traya at the time.


 * As for Malak... well, since he survived without becoming some sort of 'hole' or 'wound' or what-have-you, and since at that time he was pretty loyal to Revan, I'm under the impression that whilst he fought *at* Malachor V, he didn't fight *on* Malachor V.


 * And since we're told that Malak *does not know* about the threat of the True Sith in KotOR II (or at least, that's heavily implied) I find it difficult to believe he knows about the Trayus Academy - or even where Revan truly got the Sith teachings from. Since otherwise you'd think he'd *also* know about the True Sith. (Ulicus 02:03, 25 May 2006 (UTC))

--Sentry [ Talk ] 08:10, 15 June 2006 (UTC) There is more than enough speculation on the Kreia/Kae matter, i just want to make clear that this is not more of that. Indeed, the inconsistencies of the chronicles are plain evident, Kreia fought in the war and was said to be dead (that was a big revelation followed by a corus of "huh?"), and she clearly says that she remained on Malachor as Darth Traya "to show others the way", what the Exile would ask of her apprentices at the end of the game if she chooses to preserve Trayus Accademy. So there was no hunting guilt: by the time Revan took up the mantle of the Dark Lord of the Sith (Jedi Civil War, some time after the end of the Mandalorian Wars) she was already thought to be dead, and the Exile was the only one to come back to the Jedi Council and face judgment, they had no chance to sentence Kreia for her teachings. Some interesting quotations if there's any need: "Instead of returning after the war's end, the ships under Revan's command went deep into unexplored space. They claimed to be searching for the last remnants of the Mandalorian fleet. All contact was lost. For many months it was assumed some great disaster had befallen the entire fleet. Everyone thought they were dead. There were unsubstantiated rumors of Revan and Malak being seen on a number of different planets during these months - scattered sightings that were never confirmed. Three years ago, Revan and Malak returned at the head of a massive invasion fleet. Revan had assumed the title of Sith Lord; the hero had become a conqueror."
 * Since there is a lot of confusion about Kreia's origins, I'm posting relevant portions of the Chronicles here for reference. Much of it is backed up by in-game dialog, but not all... - Copyright LucasArts.

- Master Dorak

"That is why Atris and the others blamed me, sentenced me. They believed me responsible for Revan's fall."

- Kreia

"Countless Jedi died in both conflicts, and everyone who followed Revan and Malak died or were turned to the dark side. Except conveniently you."

- Vrook in the crystal cave on Dantooine

"You were the only one who came back from the wars to face our judgment. And rather than attempting to understand why you did what you did, we punished you instead."

- Zez-Kai Ell

"He came to me, yes. Both before and after, before Revan knew himself. And after, in the times when Revan was coming into his own and learning he was more than he had been told."

- Kreia

"And he came because Malachor, like Korriban, lies on the fringes of the ancient Sith Empire, where the true Sith wait for us, in the dark. He left the Ebon Hawk and its machines behind, for he knew he would not need them. Perhaps you shall go there with him, and do battle at the end of all things. Instead, I remained here... and now show others the way."

- Kreia on Malachor V

"You... cannot come with me. I need someone to stay here at the edge of known space, and show others the way."

- The Exile, cut content, dark side ending.

"Die? No - became stronger, yes."

- Kreia to Kavar

"Consumed them? No - taught them, defined them, yes. As Revan and Malak fought the Mandalorians in battle after battle, they grew to despise weakness, just as the Mandalorians did. In the end, the Mandalorians had taught them through conflict. Shaped the Jedi. And turned them into a weapon - against the Republic."

- Kreia to the Exile, after the destruction of Peragus. --Jinger 21:12, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

"Atris... that is not who I am, not any longer. She has not existed for some time, I think. There was always something else within me - it just took time for its voice to be heard."
 * A note on the comment that Atris mentions that Kreia is not Kreia's real name. Some take this to be a reference to Darth Traya. However, in the very same conversation, the player can get this response from Atris:

- Atris

From this it seems clear to me that Atris sees herself as Darth Traya, which is consistent with the previous cutscene, where she is corrupted and finally falls to the dark side as Kreia talks about Darth Traya. Atris is mistaken, of course, yet she still thinks that she is Traya. Therefore it would seem very odd for her to give Kreia that name, and so I assume she must be referring to a third option, when she says that Kreia is not Kreia's real name. I have added comments to the speculation accordingly. Jediphile 23:58, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Krynda?

 * Yes, Kreia is probably not Kae. The evidence is too circumstantial. It is possible that she was originally planned to be Kae (indeed, I concede that certain unused sound files give such an impression) yet the designers changed their mind. Certain elements within the finished game (or unfinished, depending on your point of view) point in the other direction: Kreia referring to Arren in the third person, and with more clarity and less smokescreen than would be used by someone attempting to mask their identity; Brianna only joining if the player is male (surely no place for the daughter of Kreia...), and even then neither character interacting as more than "old witch" and "servant of Atris" (Kreia: "Take me to your mistress") even up to Kreia's death. No - there's little evidence for Kreia/Kae; Kreia and Brianna may simply being two entirely unrelated people with the single common factor of knowing one Jedi Master Arren Kae.
 * Instead, with the continued unfolding of mysterious secrets in the somewhat newer Knights of the Old Republic comics, it seems Kreia's alter-ego may in fact be another famous Jedi Master: Krynda Draay.
 * I'll start the ball rolling with this quote:
 * "And do not mate with her [Visas Marr]. Such a union would breed trouble." - Kreia
 * Of course, Kreia would know what it's like to be the product of such an undoubtably rare union wouldn't she?
 * It is known that both possessed amazing powers of prognostication. It is also known that Kreia once used her eyes but allowed them to atrophy (despite being able to heal them) as she found how to use Force Sight, maybe because they create another layer of disguise: Krynda's Miraluka heritage certainly gifted her with unusual physiology, and her distinctive eyes could easily identify her to any who knew her. Also, Krynda tells us just how much she appreciates the power of Force Sight:
 * "If only my father's blood had been stronger! I would gladly have given my eyes—and yours—for you to be able to see what the Miraluka see!" - Krynda
 * But there's more: when Revan was looking to recruit more Jedi for his Revanchist movement, who better to ask than an old "acquaintance" to join? Judging from their conversation, Revan appears to have some history with Lucien... a friendship between Kreia's son and her Padawan perhaps?
 * Weren't all of Kreia's - numerous - apprentices considered failures? Bloodthirsty, all too eager to get their lightsabers out? Possibly, say, the kind of Jedi who would unanamously agree to cut down their own Padawans at the first sign of trouble? Possibly "failed Padawans" in much the same way as Haazen, the Padawan of her husband? ;P
 * Thanks to Zayne Carrick, Krynda won't be able to keep the Padawan Massacre quiet too long. Maybe she'll be exiled before the end of the Mandalorian Wars for her own part in it. Maybe, consumed by guilt, she'll question the validity of her unorthodox beliefs. Maybe I'll contine to paraphrase elements from the Kreia article until it becomes clear...


 * "You see that I was right, now, don't you? The truth is written in blood." - Revan

Of course, a sudden twist may render my argument utterly wrong. However, I think the Kreia/Krynda possibility is entirely strong enough to be included in the speculation. --Kessel 13:59, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Dark Lord, again
"The three lords of KotORII are never called Dark Lords"
 * Since Freedon Nadd is in the Dark Lord sucession box, shouldn't Traya be there too? At least with a "de facto" comment? None of them have actually claimed the title in any material, but they were the leading Sith Lords of their time and nobody disputed Traya's (and later Nihilus'/Sion's) rule over the remaining Sith forces. Charlii 08:44, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree. Whatever anyone else called them, they were the ones running the showSithPower 10:30, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
 * No other thoughts on the matter? Adding... Charlii 07:27, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Well THANK YOU for reverting without comment. Charlii 11:23, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
 * As far as I know (I havent played KOTOR2 yet, so I dont really have much to say in this), Freedon Nadd rightfully claim the rank of Dark Lord by murdering the last Dark Lord, Naga Sadow. After Nadd died, Marka Ragnos personally promote Kun to Dark Lord of the Sith. After Kun died, Revan and Malak worked it out and Revan became the new Dark Lord, and Malak claimed the title by killing (so he thought) Revan. From what I heard, neither one of the three bad guys in KOTOR2 claimed the title of Dark Lord, and no other canonical reference states any of them as Dark Lord. Darth Kevinmhk 12:04, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Nadd has never claimed the title, actually the old TotJ Companion says that he wasn't strong enough to be a Sith Lord and therefore settled on Onderon. This is in line with his presentation in the comics. The three lords of KotoRII are never called Dark Lord(s), but on the other hand we have no "Darth" (well, before Legacy...) that wasn't a DL or directly apprenticed to one. Anyway. I purpose that Traya is added to the sucession box with a "de facto" comment for the purpose of continuity. She did control the Sith remnant, and this sucession box is most of all about the Sith heritage. That's why it leads to Xendor and Flint, even though none of them were real Sith. Charlii 14:37, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Actually, they are, Kreia states of Nihilus:

"He is one of the Dark Lords that follows you"

The KotoR games, both I and II, use "Sith Lord" and "Dark Lord" pretty interchangably. It's irritating.(195.92.168.167 14:50, 14 June 2006 (UTC))
 * Oh, well... If they really are called Dark Lords, I guess it's really not much to debate? Unless anybody have a quote from KotoRII where Dark Lord is used in the wrong context by Kreia or another of the Lords (who all should know the difference). Charlii 14:58, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
 * What about a box that says "Leader of The Sith"?SithPower 15:47, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
 * If there are many people against Dark Lord so, sure. Charlii 16:05, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
 * For "One of the Dark Lords" quote: in Sith history, only the New Sith Empire has multiple (i mean many) Dark Lords, and the Order of the Sith Lords with 2 Dark Lords (while Master is the leader). Thus, Jedi Civil War era's Dark Lords should consider as merely Sith Lord, the Dark term was just a figure of speech. Look at KOTOR comic issue 5, I see no proof that the red armor guy is a Sith, let alone a Dark Lord as they claimed. For Nadd, well I guess NEC's retcon outrank the original comic now as NEC recently define how Nadd kills Sadow (The Jedi didnt even know Nadd had killed Sadow in the comic, and no one attempted to stop Nadd and his dark side descendents for 350 years. Thus what the Jedi claimed in the comic should not be considered as absolute facts). As I mentioned I duno KOTOR2 much, so I will leave that part for someone else to argue. Darth Kevinmhk 16:07, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
 * About Nadd: Nobody calls ObiWan a Dark Lord just because he killed Maul. The NEC doesn't change anything about Nadd's character, it only adds the fact that he killed Sadow (probably not a great feat, the guy was over six hundred years old). And about Dark Lords: Titles and their meaning change over time. Sion and Nihilus seemed rather equal i the game, neither one the master over the other. If they decided to share the title Dark Lord and rule the Sith together, who would have stopped them? Charlii 16:19, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Agreed. I'll add the leader succession boxes. If you have any objections please put them on the Talk page before reverting, please.SithPower 22:07, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Changed the content so that it will less possibly be reverted by others. Darth Kevinmhk 03:30, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Good ideaSithPower 01:41, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Factfiles calls Nadd a Dark Lord. Nothing says that Traya, Nihilus, and Sion ever were.

"In the tradition of the Sith, there can only be one Dark Lord at a time... unable to become a Sith Lord as long as his master lived, Nadd came to Onderon to make himself a king."
 * It is interesting to note about Freedon Nadd here in reference to the above comment that Freedon Nadd wasn't strong enough to become a Sith Lord and therefore settled on Onderon; the Mandalorean guide for the Exile's comapions exploring his tomb was something akin to: "He (Nadd) was far worse than Revan or Malak ever were."-User:Mikda Fopal
 * I believe Arca means that Nadd couldn't became the leader of the Sith because he was not strong enough to challenge the ruling Dark Lord.

- Arca Jeth, after the death of queen Amanoa. --Jinger 21:12, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Those titles are not misused, during her time as Darth Traya there was not a single Dark Lord, there was a triumvirate, so the terms are used correctly. --Jinger 21:12, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
 * The term "Dark Lord" is used correctly. All three were "Dark Lords of the Sith". Kreia herself says so "He is one of the Dark Lords", and so does Atris: "She is one of the Lords of the Sith." I have changed both Kreia's and Sion's articles to state this fact from the game. To keep deleting it is to deny canon and what has been established in the game. Regardless of your personal thoughts on the matter, fanon has no place here. Leave the issue alone.--Master Dakari 02:15, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree with the fact that they were DLoTS ( of course with a de facto )

Lord of Betrayal?

 * I remember Star Wars: The Ultimate Visual Guide stating Sion as Lord of Pain and Nihilus as Lord of Hunger, but I dont remember whether it stated Kreia/Traya as Lord of Betrayal or not, can anyone confirm for me? Thanks. Darth Kevinmhk 04:26, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
 * This is said in the actual game itself; one of the loading screen messages for Malachor V says that Sion learned Pain, Nihilus learned Hunger, and Traya learned Betrayal. Amazing how much has to be learned from those loading screens, when content gets cut. :-) -BaronGrackle 13:03, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, but is she directly called the "Lord of Betrayal"? The fact that she learned to use it is established in the first quote, but the question here is if we should say that Lord of Betrayal was one of the titles that she actually used. Charlii 13:24, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Exactly my point, especially when other wookieepedians seem to call her Lady... Officially she is Lady or Lord? Darth Kevinmhk 14:11, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
 * It was a long time since I played the game, but I don't think she's called Lord/Lady there. The only other source I have read (NEC) called her a Lord, but that was together with Nihilus and Sion, so the male pronome is correct. We know Lady can be a correct way to address a female Sith Lord, so I see no problem with using it here. Charlii 15:07, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't know about other sources, but KOTOR2 NEVER uses the term "Sith Lady" or "Lady of Betrayal". Even if the female Exile goes to the Dark Side, one of the prestige classes Kreia describes is still "Sith Lord". And... if Nihilus is Lord of Hunger, and Sion is Lord of Pain, then Kreia is certainly Lord of Betrayal. The loading screen I described earlier says, "From the teachings of the Trayus Academy, Sion learned pain, Nihilus learned hunger, and Traya learned betrayal... and then was betrayed in turn." Every time Kreia mentions Darth Traya, she throws in a bit about a betrayer, or knowing betrayal. If she wasn't a Lord of anything, then the triumvirate couldn't have really existed. Besides... only Sith Lords appear on the menu screen (first Sion, then Nihilus, then Traya&mdash;or the Exile, if she takes the path of "Sith Lord") :-) -BaronGrackle 20:30, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Miraluka?

 * i thought kreia was a miraluka not human because when you control her on the game and press CAPS she 'sees' like visas Mevan 20:07, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
 * No, she is human. She clearly has eyes, and she states in the game that they have simply atrophied (or wasted away) from use. She tells the Jedi Exile, if asked, that she could heal them and restore her physical sight if she so wished, but she does not; preferring to use the Force to see. And it is this, Force Sight, that you see when you look through her as you play her. Now, Miraluka can either have empty eye sockets, and they can also have defunct eyes, but Kreia's defunct eyes once worked - and can work again - which makes all the difference. And in any case, this should be in its own section, not under "Lord of Betrayal?".--Master Dakari 02:24, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Kreia's eyes atrophied from lack of use. User:Tommy9281 04:54, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

After Nihilus's death

 * Earlier we settle with Traya as leader of Triumvirate, then Nihilus as Dark Lord. So after the deaths of Sion and Nihilus while Traya being the final boss, do we need to give her 1 more succession box? As the only known major Sith of the time, does she automatically gain Dark Lord status? Just like Luke's succssion box has him as Grand Master since 4 ABY? Darth Kevinmhk 03:11, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
 * She never was one to care about titles, there was hardly anything left of the Sith Empire at the time, she only had this status for a few days at most and it's just messy with multiple succession boxes... Just as we have Naga Sadow -> Ludo Kressh -> Freedon Nadd, it is easier to read and quickly lets you navigate through the timeline. If you want the details you can find them in each article. Charlii 07:27, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I am under the assumption that Kreia/Darth Traya was in fact a true GREY JEDI, though her two incarnations of both Sith Lord and Jedi were extremes on both sides of the spectrum. She was far more a GREY JEDI than Jolee Bindo in this regard, I think.  In reference to the above post, Kreia didn't care for titles, as we know.  During KOTOR II when the Exile asks her what she is, Jedi or Sith, she claims that there is no need for titles and that she was once both, and held them for what they were. Mikda Fopal

Image

 * Found this image in the unused image list - does anyone object to making it the main image? Lonnyd 21:34, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Concept art should not be used as main images, and only carefully in other parts of the article. They aren't canon, more like high-level fan art. Charlii 21:43, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree. The image we have now shows her final appearance, and that's how it should stay. --FireV 15:13, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Concept art shouldn't be the main image if it's different from the final result, but this pic looks like a finished draft. I think it looks nicer, and it isn't like a rough draft or anything. What's so wrong about it?Darth Ceratis 02:11, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
 * It's concept art all the same. Not only that, it's not Kreias final appearance. AND it can't be a finished draft. Look at her eyes. =P -- Redemption Talk [[Image:Uglykotoricon.svg|15px]] 02:13, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Hole in the Force
"showing them the Force through the Exile's eyes, making them worse than dead; holes in the Force." I liked the reference but I fear this may cause more confusion about the expressions "hole/wound/breach/echo in the Force", maybe it would be better to quote literally "like an absence in the Force", one better understands what it is that she actually did: she made them suffer what the Exile suffered on Malachor V, the Force through the eyes of the Exile would be the sight of the Force abandoning you, she does what the Exile does to the Jedi Masters if she chooses to kill them, and what Nihilus does as well. "It is a technique that is almost as old as the Sith themselves... it is a means of severing connections between life, the Force, and feeding upon the death it causes. It cannot be taught... it can only be gained through instinct, through experiencing its effects, first-hand."

- Kreia

It may be something Kreia experienced at the hands of Nihilus when he cast her down and stripped her of the Force, or learned of in Trayus Accademy, or likely even before on Malachor V when the Mass Shadow Generator was activated as she fought in the war and was able to describe in detail what it felt like: "There is a world on the Outer Rim surrounded by mass shadows. Past the graveyard of Mandalorian warships, this planet suffers, crushed in gravity's fist. To walk on its surface is to feel it crushing every cell of your being. It is like being buried alive until it seems you will never breathe again. What manner of creature would have birthed such a thing? Nothing human, to be sure. If you dare voice your opinions again, Iridonian, you will forget yourself for a time. Return to your machines, and trouble me no more. Serve the exile until it is your time to die, and it will be enough."

- Kreia to Bao-Dur, on the Ebon Hawk. --Jinger 10:05, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Vandalism
uh sorry about this but someone wrote bitch in the beginning a couple of times, i don't want to interfere with the hard work and mess something up 72.230.40.84 20:35, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks for pointing that out. I've removed it now. -- I need a name 20:40, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
 * What the heck was that all about?! Xepeyon 13:12, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Loss of remaining hand
The article states that the Exile cut off her remaining hand. What is the source for this. I don't recall it being in the game.--Darth OblivionComlink 16:43, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
 * It is seen in the game. That's also the very reason she uses these three floating sabers after you defeat her for the first time. - Sikon 18:46, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Guess I wasn't paying close enough attention.--Darth OblivionComlink[[Image:Sith_Emblem.svg|20px]] 01:16, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I didn't notice that either. Hmmm.... Xepeyon 03:03, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Most people don't notice. But not only is the model missing her hands but the gamenotes call for the Exile going medevial on her other hand.(look at the floating lightsabers pic where you can see that she is missing both hands) -- Redemption Talk [[Image:Uglykotoricon.svg|15px]] 03:07, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
 * How do you know her hand isn't covered by her sleeve.
 * Read the dev notes. Specifically says her hand goes the way of her other one. -- Redemption Talk [[Image:Uglykotoricon.svg|15px]] 00:30, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Darth Sion appears and chops it off? :-P --  I need a name  ( Complain here ) 00:32, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
 * No. Player chops her hand off after beating her the first time. Obvious. Don't try to be disagreeable just for the sake of it. -- Redemption Talk [[Image:Uglykotoricon.svg|15px]] 20:49, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Move to Darth Traya

 * should we? It was the last name she was known by, i mean she re-claimed the title during her duel with the Exile on Malachor V. Jasca Ducato Sith Council (Sith campaign) 20:28, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't know... she uses "Darth Traya" more as a generic title than as her personal assumed name. This is evidenced even in released elements of the game; if the Exile kills Atris, then Kreia says that someone must take the place of Darth Traya, and if Atris cannot then she will. If the Exile falls to the dark side, then Kreia tells her at the end of the game that she loves her because she is not truly Sith. Kreia is not truly Sith, and I think, in her own way, she repents her Sithness as much as her Jediness at the end of her life. -BaronGrackle 21:46, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
 * If we follow the precedent set by Darth Vader, shouldn't there be two articles? ;) Lonnyd 06:28, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
 * No, because the Darth Vader/Anakin Skywalker thing is unique (see their respective talk pages). Maybe so, but if she re-claimed the title, which she does in either storyline, then she reassumes the name Traya. Jasca Ducato Sith Council (Sith campaign) 09:15, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
 * You may have noticed I haven't responded, Jasca Ducato. That is because I cannot think of a sensible argument against the move, and it saddens me. :-) -BaronGrackle 16:55, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
 * OK, i'll ask an admin to move the page. Jasca Ducato
 * No, after the exile defeats her, she can call her "Kreia," so you can assume she was redeemed.  Darth Anxor [[Image:Revanchist_Sith.svg|20px]] Sith Order  17:18, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Your a bit late. Jasca Ducato undefined 18:09, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

The In-Game Picture With Her Hood
Is there a way to perhaps get a better one? I'm not sure if I'm the only one, but she looks like a vaguely angry blow up doll, I just think there are better.

The new Traya image is too small, and I don't like the angle; the old one is better. But that's just me. MPK 02:07, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I can't please everyone. The other one wasn't all that great of quality either. -- Redemption Talk [[Image:Uglykotoricon.svg|15px]] 02:18, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Guardian of the Archives?
According to what source was she "very possibly the guardian of the archives before Atris"? -  Angel Blue  (Holonet) 23:26, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
 * "Because Atris' path is one I walked long ago, and it is a chapter of my life that has been read and closed. She has taken the first steps, I think - we shall see. Surely you felt the righteous anger, the spoken judgments, the lack of forgiveness. I was a historian once, gathering the relics of the Jedi, learning the ancient mysteries. Always, there were more questions." -- Redemption Talk [[Image:Uglykotoricon.svg|15px]] 23:31, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Huh, interesting. Thanks. -  Angel Blue  (Holonet) 23:41, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Definitive "Sith Lord" quote
Found this beauty just the other night. After defeating Atris, take this dialogue path (it may not be the only one):

"I will not kill a helpless opponent, Atris." "That is where we are different." "Tell me where Kreia is." "Is that where Kreia has gone?" "What I started?" "What does this have to do with Kreia?" "Why would Kreia do that?" "Who is Kreia?"

I do know that if you do not select "Who is Kreia?" the first time around, it will disappear from the options (just as Nihilus's description disappears if you don't ask about him first, after leaving Peragus). You get this: "She is one of the Lords of the Sith, one of those who murdered the Jedi, and she holds the death of the galaxy in her hands."

- Atris

Sith Lord, not Lady. -BaronGrackle 00:00, 12 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Actualy, it follows the same reason why we call tha mankind mankind... it involves men and women. in spanish its that way also "los hombres", can be used both for men and for the two gender, and "señores" refers to lord and lord & lady or a comunity of diferent gender of lords... . you dont use two lord and one lady cause its to large... you just simply unify them in the lords, refering to one lady and two lords... the fact is that first lord is for male only, thats why the term "lady" was created, for female; and because of our old man-preference society one lady and one lord or diferent and many lords an lady are just called "Lords"... CONCLUSION...kreia was a Sith lady, member ruler three "lords" of the sith triumviratum. viento 19:15, february 3 2007
 * She was a Sith Lord. As said before, Lord is unisex. Give it up. Atris is referred to as "Master Atris" during the holorecording as is Lonna Vash. It's the exact same thing. And I don't ever recall any of the female Jedi during the Clone Wars ever being called "Mistress" either. Give it up. She's a Sith Lord. -- Redemption [[Image:Redemptionusersymbol.png|20px]] Talk 00:14, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Move back to Kreia
I'm not comfortable with the recent move, which is based on the opinions of only two people. In the game, doesn't she imply that Darth Traya is not a title that is unique to her?-- Lord Oblivion Sith holocron 06:29, 29 November 2006 (UTC) HOW CAN IT NOT BE KREIA? This is getting very ridiculous.
 * I think that's deliberately left oblique. .  .  .  .  07:36, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't like it very much, but there's no indication that there was ever any other Darth Traya. Her statements can be akin to the idea that, "Hey, someone's gotta take the name 'Darth Traya', so it might as well be me." Imagine that there was a KOTOR-style RPG over the events of the prequel trilogy, but, depending on decisions the player took, either Anakin Skywalker would become Darth Vader or Obi-Wan Kenobi would become Darth Vader. In the end, only one person fulfills the destiny, so only one person can be associated with the title. And, in terms of identification, I find the final dialogue between Traya and the Exile akin to that between Vader and Obi-Wan on Mustafar: the hero still calls the old friend by the former name (Kreia or Anakin, respectively), but both figures, while still acknowledging the old names, still think of themselves by the Darth names. Hold the mouse over her, or look at the feedback descriptions, or just hear her refer to herself, and she is Darth Traya. -BaronGrackle 20:32, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Well if you look at the convo above, you had plenty of time to put forward your objections. And regardless, she became known as Darth Traya at the time of her death, and we cannot change that. Jasca Ducato 09:55, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I was on a "Wookieevacation" and didn't notice it until recently.-- Lord Oblivion Sith holocron[[Image:Sith_Emblem.svg|30px]] 21:05, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I prefer Kreia as well. It is her real name. Maybe we should have a vote? -  Yoshi  626 [[Image:Yoshiegg.jpg|20px]] 03:06, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
 * My justification was that she died as Darth Traya, so she gets the Sith name per policy. But since not everyone feels comfortable with this, here is the vote. - Sikon 01:46, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Technically, she was last addressed as Kreia. Though I guess that's pretty uncertain since the dialog is all from the PC and the PC chooses which responses. But typically, all the "light sided" type responses to end the convo with Kreia, she addresses Kreia as "Kreia". -- Redemption Talk [[Image:Uglykotoricon.svg|15px]] 04:28, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Seriously. Do we really have to check what it said word-for-word?  The Policy for naming is what they were last called, but it is also what they were known as most of their life.  In that case, it would be either Kreia, or a non-canon conspiracy theory name that involves Arren Kae or the Draay family.

Kreia

 * 1) Thank you for allowing a vote, Sikon. -  Yoshi  626 [[Image:Yoshiegg.jpg|20px]] 01:47, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
 * 2) If that's policy, why doesn't Dooku get his Sith name?-- Lord Oblivion Sith holocron[[Image:Sith_Emblem.svg|30px]] 01:58, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
 * 3) Both Dooku/Tyrannus and Kreia/Traya were known by both names during their time as the Darth. Which is where you have conflict. Name should go to the real name in these cases. Also, Darth is more of a title then anything else. -- Redemption Talk [[Image:Uglykotoricon.svg|15px]] 03:24, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
 * 4) Lord Hydronium 19:07, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
 * 5) "Darth" is a Sith title, but "Darth Treya" became Kreia again when she was herself exiled, thus no longer a valid holder of the title. (~ SotiCoto)
 * 1) "Darth" is a Sith title, but "Darth Treya" became Kreia again when she was herself exiled, thus no longer a valid holder of the title. (~ SotiCoto)

Darth Traya

 * 1) See comments. -BaronGrackle 02:34, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
 * 2) If the vote is still up... Evir Daal 11:33, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Comments
"Technically, she was last addressed as Kreia." Technically, had Darth Vader died on Mustafar, he would have last been addressed as "Anakin", by Obi-Wan. But he was still Darth Vader. "If that's policy, why doesn't Dooku get his Sith name?" Because Dooku was his political name that he used with the rest of the world, as was Palpatine. Kreia had no real public image. "Both Dooku/Tyrannus and Kreia/Traya were known by both names during their time as the Darth." No, Traya was not. She abandoned her name after losing her connection with the Force, and she then reclaimed it on Malachor. We can vote on this all we want, but the bottom line is that she is Darth Traya at the time of her death. All the contrary evidence we have is that 1) the Exile calls her "Kreia", which doesn't mean anything, and 2) it would have been really cool for her character if she had kept the name Kreia... but she didn't. Democracy is nice and all, but this isn't really a matter of opinion. -BaronGrackle 02:34, 10 December 2006 (UTC)


 * 1.It is more about what they were called for most of their life. This argument is still pending discussion for the Anakin/Vader merge for this reason.

2.It doesn't matter if it was a, "political name" or not. She called herself Kreia, and other people called her Kreia. It was her name. How do you know that Vergere, a similar character, didn't have a Sith name while she was briefly under Palpatine? Do you think that Jacen would have called her by a Darth name, or her "public" name?

3.It doesn't matter if she went by two names at different times. She was known all of her life as "Kreia". The Jedi Exile calls her Kreia, others do, it does matter, and she simply said that there always has to be a Darth Traya underneath. However, it is more all-conclusive and Encyclopedic to call her Kreia.

Here are the two sides of the argument. Decide based on what you think.

I would prefer "Kreia / Darth Traya". Just like I'd prefer it for all Sith characters. We should have Anakin Skywalker / Darth Vader, Dessel / Darth Bane, Phanius / Darth Ruin, hell, I wouldn't even be adverse to stuff like Revan / Darth Revan, Malak / Darth Malak... (Ulicus 02:34, 14 December 2006 (UTC)) In agreement totally with Ulicus.
 * Personally, I prefer Traya, but I can see the arguments to either side. I would like to point out, however, that the Darth Vader article no longer exists, but since this issue is still under consideration, it shouldn't be used as an example. In a similar matter, I have suggested that the Darth Malak article be renamed to "Malak", my major argument being that this was in fact his given name, unlike Darth Bane which was an assumed name. Also, Darth Malak was commonly called "Malak" even as a Sith Lord. Others were always refered to "Lord" or "Darth", with the exception of Vader (again this matter has not been settled). Bredd13 22:26, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I would prefer we actually followed Wookieepedia policy actually. [[Image:DarthAbeonisSig2.gif|Jasca Ducato]] Sith Council Sith Campaign 11:36, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Ohhh, cutting... but yes, what I was saying was that I'd like Wookieepedia's policy to *be* what I'd described, not that we should change all those articles whilst it wasn't. (Ulicus 16:15, 14 December 2006 (UTC))
 * Then take it to the Consensus track and we'll vote. -- Yoshi  626 [[Image:Yoshiegg.jpg|20px]] 19:38, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Kreia's Appearance
How does she change it so dramatically? Its completely beyond me. I mean changing clothing is one thing, but she seems capable of completely altering the colour of her skin, her hair, and inverting her eyes on a whim. Is there any explanation given for this besides dramatic effect (to show how eeeeevil she is)? Besides, I never took Kreia for being as shallow as to specially dress up for the arrival of the Exile (though there would have been a slightly better excuse had the Exile been male). Also, I'm curious as to whether people are using her appearance to judge whether she died as "Darth Traya" or not. I contend of course that she didn't as she ceased to be Darth Traya when she was exiled by Darth Sion and Darth Nihilus. The fact that she takes on the "Darth Traya" appearance for the final scene however might be implying to certain others that she had changed back, irrespective of whether she was really representing the Sith there or not. What do others think regarding the supposed connection of her appearance to her affiliation? On a related note to that last point, did Darth Traya ignite her lightsaber in the scene showing her own betrayal? If so, what colour was it? She used violet lightsabers in the final battle afterall, which aren't as typically representative of the Sith as red. (~ SotiCoto) - Sounds silly but I always thought that the reason her skin tone changes so drastically is becuase she used make-up. Really, really thick queen elizabeth style make up. Add a bit of black lipstick and voila.(195.92.168.165 23:57, 15 December 2006 (UTC))
 * The appearance is one reason for believing she died as Darth Traya, but the main argument is that the game specifically identifies her as such. If you hold your mouse over her, it says "Darth Traya". If you look at the feedback reports, "Darth Traya" is the one speaking and attacking you. Even though the Exile (and even Sion) call her Kreia, remember also that Obi-Wan called Darth Vader by "Anakin" during their Mustafar duel, and Vader never corrected him. As for lightsabers, I believe she had a red one in that cutscene... she uses a red lightsaber in the first part of the final battle as well, wielding the purple ones only when she switches to telekinesis. -BaronGrackle 23:49, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

I always just figured her sudden change was simply dark side corruption, which would probably be accelerated since she was on Malachor, a heavily dark side-tainted place. 70.106.162.68 21:38, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Quotes
This page has a lot of quotes, how does making a quotes page and moving out some of these sound?24.196.5.209 04:50, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Most powerful Sith Lord until Palpatine?
What canon source supports this claim: "She was thought to be the most powerful Sith Lord until the reign of Darth Sidious and Lord Vader (Several millenia later)"? Could someone help shed some light on this?


 * I agree, it's obviously fanboy-shit. At least the Exile bested her--
 * Nailing three Jedi Masters without breaking a sweat is pretty impressive. That, and her manipulations of Sion, Nihilus, Atris, and Exile are equally impressive - and very much like Paltipine. - Allronix
 * It's fanon, and it's outta here. --Imp 05:46, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
 * It doesn't really matter if she killed the three Jedi Masters or not. No in-universe sources say she's thought to be most powerful, so it's really just the guy's opinion. I'm removing it.Darth Ceratis 21:01, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Morichro
"Sleep, murderer - and be silent. I need no distractions."

- Kreia to Atton

I've been wondering if she could be a Morichro practitioner, Force trance doesn't affect others.--Jinger 16:56, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

I put that in the article in more detail. Feel free to move it to the Behind the scene section, if you think that's the case. I could have quoted some significant lines but I think there's enough already. "Is Atton okay? He looks out cold."

- The Exile to Kreia, as Atton lies unconscious

"That is a skill I know well. To know the knots of muscle, the currents of blood within the veins and flesh... it is a galaxy within the galaxy."

- Kreia, about the Treat Injury skill

"Though it has been some time since I exercised my healing powers, there is a shred of life within you still."

- Kreia to Colonel Tobin

"But Revan, when he had learned all he could, had other masters... that fool Zhar, and other Jedi on other planets."

- Kreia

"When I was still on Coruscant Revan and Malak often came to me for additional training."

- Master Zhar Lestin

From the last two you gather Kreia and Zhar taught Revan on Coruscant and that off-world masters came after, so she did spend some time on Coruscant. This, togheter with her multiple references at her healing skills, makes it worth mention.--Jinger 13:33, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Hey, great point to bring up. I think that's definantly Moricho. Also remember that Kreia is one of the last and only practioners of the esoteric Jedi and Sith arts. By the way, Force Trance, or Hibernation, can be used against an opponant, but, it can only be applied through physical contact, so Kreia would've had to have been close enough to touch him in order to put him under It's influence. By dint of this, It's pretty sure-fire that she used Moricho. Good call. --The truth hurts... 21:15, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Date of birth
The date of birth 3951 BBY cannot be true. See Jedi Exile, T3-M4 an other KotOR related articles. -80.108.234.164 04:57, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Um, that's the date of her death, not birth. -- Yoshi  626 [[Image:Yoshiegg.jpg|20px]] 06:47, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Hey, I was wondering why Kreia's date of birth is 4001 BBY, I had thought that she would be a little older than this. Does anyone know why 4001 BBY is noted as her birth date, is there a source for this? - TheLostJedi  11:27, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
 * In 4,001 BBY under Births it says Kreia (speculated), why is it speculated to be this date? But more importantly, as it is just speculation shouldn't it be removed? - TheLostJedi  20:10, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Kreia Vs Darth Traya

 * Shouldnt the name of the article be Darth Traya seeing as thats the name she died under, I think there was a simaler disscussion on the Darth Ruin article whether it should be called ruin or phanius and everyone agreed that as he died as darth ruin that should be the name of the article it should be the same here.-User:KickAssJedi
 * Our policy for Darths is generally that if they used their non-Darth name most of the time, we file them under the non-Darth name (for example, check where Darth Tyranus and Darth Sidious lead you.) &mdash;Silly Dan (talk) 14:42, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Fair enough maybe we should change the main picture to one of her as kreia, in her brown green robes on the ebon hawk.-User:KickAssJedi

Prophecy relating to the fate of the Mandalorians
"They will die a death that will last millennia, until all that remains is their code, their history, and, in the end, the shell of their armor upon the shell of a man, too easily slain by Jedi."

This is said here to refer to the death of Jango Fett at the hands of Mace Windu, but actually I believe it instead should refer to the death of Boba Fett at the hands of Luke Skywalker in RotJ.
 * Boba didn't die at the hands of Luke.--Hencho414 17:42, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I do realize that technically, though, well fine I see your point. I was just thinking along the lines that BF was further along the Mandalorian line is all. Please disregard then.
 * And please sign your name using four "~", thanks.--Hencho414 17:48, 16 March 2007 (UTC)


 * boba fett survived the sarlaac pit incident 2wice actualy he didnt die on rotj Mevan 20:03, 10 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Kreia's quotation is flawed, which leaves room for interpretation. The "shell of their armor upon the shell of a man" is a more accurate description of Boba Fett than Jango Fett. If Boba Fett were to die in the Sarlacc Pit as depicted onscreen in ROTJ, then he is "too easily slain," and his death would last a millennia as Jabba describes. The Expanded Universe renders Kreia's prophecy bogus on its face since Boba Fett returns to lead the remaining Mandalorians, so their culture is not dead at all. An absolute conclusion can not be drawn here.

Her prophecy refers to Jango Fett. Boba wasn't killed by a Jedi was he? - TheLostJedi  17:43, 09 November 2007 (UTC)

Her true purpose
Why did she want to destroy the force? Is that because she thinks the Force is manipulating everyone's life and everyone is nothing but slave to the Force? I don't see a reason why should I take this question somewhere else. Isn't this a discussion page? It is just a simple question. That is not senseless if you think about it. Several comics and novels mentioned that the Force does direct an individual's destiny, which means that the galaxy can be said is merely a toy of the Force since it exists everywhere. I am not sure Kreia's intention and I want to know her true purpose. I am discussing the content. I don't understand certain statement and I am just asking a question.Jasonfu 04:30, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Please ask these questions elsewhere, like on TheForce.Net. Atarumaster88  [[Image:Jedi_Order.svg|20px]] ( Audience Chamber ) 04:24, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
 * The discussion page is for discussing the contents of the article, not your senseless conjecture. Also, plese sign your comments.--Hencho414 10:49, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

You can read the article perhaps Xavcam 02:43, 2 April 2007 (UTC) The thing is I cannot understand the article.Jasonfu 04:05, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Arkanian?
Dunno, just thinking... is there a possibility that Kreia is an Arkanian? She seems to have all the characteristics of one... (Edit: Including the arrogance and perceptive mind. If only we could see her ears...) --Kessel 17:09, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

I used to think that she was of Shaak Ti's species; until I saw that she had hair and not head tails. But I agree; she does appear to be Arkanian.--Logan Felipe 03:56, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
 * She has five-fingered hands, so she's definitely not a pure Arkanian. And offshoots have different skin color and pupils, so she's not an offshoot either. - Sikon 12:18, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I've read the Arkanian page and it says that they use implants to enhance them selfs off world and if you look at Kreia's attributes she has a high concentration what is used for implants. User:Kami-Sama
 * That's original research based on gameplay mechanics. - Sikon 13:37, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I always thought she was Human. Chack Jadson 20:09, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I thought she was a Miraluka.

Arkanian? Yes. Proof of identification: Pale skin, blank white eyes, and white hair. Those are very significant facts you should remember. - Will Karner 20:19, 9 November 2007

Revan's mother

 * I've heard rumors saying Kreia was Revan's mother... anyone know anything about this? FemaleCommando25
 * Fanon. Completely and utterly fanon. That's the kind of crap you see in "fan-fiction". -- Redemption [[Image:Redemptionusersymbol.png|20px]] Talk 22:13, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Love for the exile
When she says she love the exile what kind of "love" is it supposed to be ?
 * Maternal. At least that's what the game notes say exactly. -- Redemption [[Image:Redemptionusersymbol.png|20px]] Talk 00:47, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Kreia Manipulates Bao-Dur
In the article paragraph about Kreia manipulating The Exile's party members, should we add in the part where Kreia reminds Bao-Dur of Malachor, or is that only in the Dark-side story?

wookiepedia is just as territorial as wikipedia
why did you undo a correct edit? Revan and Malak came after Kreia, correct? She trained them, after all. Wouldn't that make them her successors, not predecessors? feel free to undo your removal of my correct edit. Though that part of the Chronicles of the Old Republic does contradicts in-game and other canon information. Personally, Mr Anon, I think that the idea that Kreia was a Sith before Revan and trained him in their ways is quite a nice one. I can see strong parallels between Lumiya/Caedus there. I would not, however, ever claim that such a thing was canon or even likely.
 * Haha, I love it when anons think themselves more knowledgeable than everyone else. Kreia training Revan isn't worth two cents. Revan and Malak fell to the darkside before Kreia, so they were her predecessors.  Jasca Ducato Sith Council 21:32, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * sorry, i'm too lazy to register, as i don't plan on contributing, just consuming. if you'd like my name, number and address to chat i'd be happy to divulge that to you.  i'm not hiding behind a veil of anonymity as you implied... in any event this isn't a matter of knowledge; it was a matter of correcting an error.  by virtue of being trained by her, Revan and Malak are Kreia's successors.  it's simple logic.  also - what makes you believe that kreia hadn't fallen to the darkside before revan?  regardless of whether that is true, i still feel like the sentence in question should read "successors" and not "predecessors".  to lock this page because of my "vandalism" is outright absurd.  so it goes
 * The second game cleary states that Kreia fell to the dark side after she trained and lost Revan. Thus, it would be impossible for her to have fallen before Revan. Granted, in the Jedi regime, Revan and Malak are Kreia's successors, but in the Sith, they are her predeccessors, because they took up the title "Darth", before Kreia.  Jasca Ducato Sith Council 22:08, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Right. The point is that they were Dark Lords before Darth Traya and the Sith Triumvirate. Had she fallen to the dark side before Revan and Malak did, not much would have changed, we're talking about Sith leadership, not simple adherence.--Jinger 11:49, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
 * JEDI MASTER KREIA, Revan's old mentor, is still haunted by guilt, wondering whether it was her teaching that resulted in Revan's fall to the dark side, and begins to search for him. Sensing his last location, she travels to Malachor V, but is unable to shield her emotions, and is completely consumed by the dark side of the Force. She is lost to the Jedi, spending the next several years on Malachor V, learning its secrets, and eventually becoming The master of the Sith academy there. -- Chronicles of the Old Republic. -- Redemption [[Image:Redemptionusersymbol.png|25px]] (Talk) 14:55, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
 * 1) The game states that the Jedi believe Kreia to have died during the Mandalorian Wars. She was "lost" to the Jedi long before the aftermath of the Jedi Civil War
 * 2) Revan returned to the light side. There's no reason for her to be haunted by guilt.
 * 3) Even if she IS haunted by guilt (he did still terrorise the galaxy), she could have spoken to him long before he disappeared from the face of the galaxy if the Chronicles scenario is correct.

Is it possible? Sure, but such a suggestion/idea has no real place in the article because there's little to no evidence that supports it. The only things I can find that even remotely hint at it are:


 * "what the greatest of the Sith Lords learned of evil, they learned from me"
 * Could be taken as a reference to Revan, though this is very unlikely and it's far more probable that she is talking exclusively about the TSL Sith Lords.


 * "But in the end, he came back to me. When he learned there was nothing more to be learned from the Jedi, except how one could leave them forever."
 * Interesting stuff, but the implication there is that Kreia is still a Jedi, since she includes herself amongst their number.

So yeah. A cool thought, but unlikely to be true. (Ulicus 19:14, 9 November 2007 (UTC))

You know what's sad? There are anon that know more about Star Wars than people registered here. Having a name here dosen't mean you automaticaly know more than someone who dosen't. I was an anon here for a while, and was debating with registered names here who knew almost nothing of what they were talking about. The guy at the top of the article had a few good points. --The truth hurts... 21:23, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Please read the talk header at the top of this page. This discussion needs to stop here as it is a complete and utter waste of time, especially since it has nothing to do with the improvement of the Kreia article. If those involved wish to continue this conversation on this talk page after my warning, those users will find themselves blocked accordingly by me. If you guys absolutely feel the need to continue this pissing contest, then take it to your respective user talk pages. Greyman ( Paratus ) 21:27, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Kreia is no wound in the Force
Kreia is not a wound in the Force. She was stripped of the Force but that's not what it takes. And Atris never said her bond with the Exile was due to them both being wounds in the Force, that's fanon.--Jinger 02:32, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Move to Darth Traya (again)
Look, I know its been talked about twice already, but we should move the title to Darth Traya, as she died under that name.

Kreia\Darth Traya
How come the title of the article is Kreia but Darth Traya is in the infobox? Just wondering. Also, if the title is Kreia (which I don't support) shoudn't we move the image to one of Kreia? Maxi6 00:14, 6 December 2007 (UTC)Maxi6
 * This was one of those weird exceptions to the rule that we had a consensus about. While the preference was to keep her at Kreia, her infobox remains Darth Traya as it was technically her final persona. -- Redemption [[Image:Redemptionusersymbol.png|25px]] (Talk) 00:31, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Redemption?
In the article it said that Kreia realized she had been searching for redemption all along. I thought she died as Darth Traya. Shouldn't this be corrected?Maxi6 02:17, 7 December 2007 (UTC)Maxi6
 * No. Darth Traya was not redeemed. Realising what you seek is redemption, is not the same as being redeemed.  Jasca Ducato Sith Council 22:01, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Oh, sorry. just didn't understand.Maxi6 00:02, 8 December 2007 (UTC)Maxi6

Wait a minute. If she wasn't redeemed, how come she told the Exile to go find Revan before she died? After all, Revan was her former Padawan. Why else would she want to find him? And also, when the Exile said there was still time to save her, Kreia said that she already had. That's the exact same thing Anakin said to Luke before dying in Return of the Jedi. Surely there was still some good in her. 68.228.149.192 17:18, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
 * If Kreia had admitted that she was wrong and was sorry about what she'd did, then she'd been redeemed. But the whole point was that she wanted to prove that was right and she stuck to it until the very end. -- Redemption [[Image:Redemptionusersymbol.png|25px]] (Talk) 17:26, 12 January 2008 (UTC)