Talk:Palpatine/Legends

Archived talk: Darth Sidious | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4

Question
In an interview with Film Review magazine in April of last year (which can be viewed here), Ian McDiarmid explains to the interviewer that, regarding Palpatine: "I am categorically assured by George Lucas, and he’s the one who knows, that he’s dead." Would this then negate all of the stories of Palpatine surviving, since Lucas' word is G-canon? Adamwankenobi 21:55, 12 Jan 2006 (UTC)
 * Lucas himself was actually praised Dark Empire, so I doubt it. -- SFH 21:57, 12 Jan 2006 (UTC)
 * Maybe the guy who plays Palpatine thinks he died at Endor, but in-universe, he survived alright. Admiral J. Nebulax 22:55, 12 Jan 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, Palpatine is dead... He was killed by Empatojayos Brand on Onderon. So what he told you was true...from a certain point of view - Kwenn 23:00, 12 Jan 2006 (UTC)
 * It depends on what death. Admiral J. Nebulax 23:04, 12 Jan 2006 (UTC)
 * No, he isn't dead. He's just trapped. When you estabilish a character to be immortal, trapping him is the only way to go. --Master Starkeiller 21:49, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, as far as the Galaxy at large knows, he's dead. Admiral J. Nebulax 21:50, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
 * &mdash;"There are things that go beyond the understanding of a space pirate."
 * &mdash;Luke Skywalker http://forums.starwars.com/share/img/emoticons/wink.gif http://forums.starwars.com/share/img/emoticons/wink.gif http://forums.starwars.com/share/img/emoticons/wink.gif http://forums.starwars.com/share/img/emoticons/wink.gif --Master Starkeiller 22:24, 25 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, still, those who don't understand this probably believe he's dead. Admiral J. Nebulax 01:04, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
 * He's currently trapped in the eternal madness of the dark side, according to the Essential Guide to Characters. Not the kind of immortality he was hoping for - Kwenn 18:10, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Hey, maybe whoever locked him in left the key inside the cell. ;) Admiral J. Nebulax 21:06, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Order 66
Did he give it once, like the book says, or did he really give it to all the commanders, individually? The book was better than the movie - Yoda1300 17:22, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
 * My guess: Palpatine issued the command to Commander Cody personally because he wanted to make sure Obi-Wan was dead and buried. Then he just sent it out to various corps commanders and let it trickle down to the troopers at the front. It would've taken him days to personally give out the order to every single clone commander in the galaxy. --AdmThrawn 17:27, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
 * That's true. Admiral J. Nebulax 20:20, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
 * I wrote that part of the article, and I can only tell you that the ROTS young adult novelization (p. 122) says he contacted each commander individually. I totally agree, that's a whole lot of work to do, but if the book says it happened, shouldn't we consider it canon until another book says otherwise? Erik Pflueger 03:47, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
 * How many commanders are there? Do we know?--DannyBoy7783 06:55, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, I'd say a lot. Admiral J. Nebulax 20:33, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
 * I believe Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader mentions Olee Starstone finds evidence that at least 200 Jedi were killed during Order 66, so that would imply a similar number of commanders - though there may have been multiple Jedi on some worlds, a la Yoda, Quin and Luminara with Gree on Kashyyyk, or Barriss and Aayla with Bly on Felucia - Kwenn 20:36, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, how many divisions were there that are commanded by commanders? Admiral J. Nebulax 20:37, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
 * The book Yoda1300 refers to is the adult novelization. It does seem that it's the exact same message, and that Palps doesn't wait for individual confirmation. But it hasn't been established as a part of canon yet. Hard to call, this debate is--Erl 22:25, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Perhaps he sent it out to all the commanders at once, except for Kenobi and Yoda, because they were the largest threats to him. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 22:36, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Does anyone agree with this? Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 21:18, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I really don't know. I could see it going either way. Maybe we should all go bug Tasty--Erl 18:23, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, knowing Palpatine, he was probably focused more on the major Jedi threats, but who knows. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 18:27, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
 * From the final big screen release of the movie, we are sure that he contacted Cody himself, and arguably contacted Gree himself. In the adult novel, he sent the message to every commander all at once (well, probably he has already recorded 200+ messages, we know Palpatine was always well prepared). Even if not already recorded, technology in Star Wars universe could probably allow him to say the sentence once, and then replace the commander name with AI voice which was exactly Palpatine's voice (3PO can speak exactly like Leia in Thrawn Trilogy). Darth Kevinmhk 03:48, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, for Captain Jag, Palpatine didn't say "Captain Jag,..." if I remember correctly. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 13:05, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Papatine only said Cody's name in the final big screen release. Although in the Screenplay, he did say almost every names of the Commanders. Darth Kevinmhk 14:04, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I thought Palpatine did say Gree's name in the movie. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 14:33, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Nope, the final big screen release / DVD release only shows Gree replying "It will be done, my lord.", no Palpatine's dialogue was shown. Darth Kevinmhk 09:44, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Just saw the movie again, and you're right. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 13:36, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Article size
For those of us on dial-up, this page is entirely too large (140 KB takes over a minute and a half for me to load). I was wondering if we could break it up wikipedia-style -- i.e. under one or two of the larger sections have a summary and link to a new page. This failing, could we at least trim some of the pictures (such as the two images of Palpatine with basically the same pose -- look under "abilities and traits")? Thanks. RMF 04:30, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
 * This has been discussed before, and it has been decided numerous times not to do so. Admiral J. Nebulax 20:31, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Numerous? I thought it was only decided once.  I still think that splitting the bio off to another article wouldn't hurt, but I think RMF and I are the only ones who like the idea. &mdash; Silly Dan 22:44, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
 * It was definitely more than once. More are in favor of keeping it as is. Admiral J. Nebulax 00:18, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Hmm, I could only find one discussion on archive 4 of the talk page. (I'm not counting the discussion on Talk: Darth Sidious where we decided not to have separate articles on Palpatine and Sidious.) &mdash; Silly Dan 13:20, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, before the latest one, there was another one a while back... Perhaps someone deleted it. Admiral J. Nebulax 20:30, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
 * One vote was actually on Erik Pflueger's article prose, but it was essential a vote on the article's length...Good thing it was a vote, because most of the admins wanted to change it. Palpatine's article was saved by democracy. Ironic. -- SFH 20:39, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Wow. I'll say. Admiral J. Nebulax 20:41, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Once again, I'm in favor of shortening this article. Length, writing, images, everything. At this point adding or removing images is a chore because you have to switch every image after it. Many of them are very similar as well and could be removed. It's just too long.--DannyBoy7783 20:46, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Not another damn vote... Admiral J. Nebulax 20:47, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
 * I didn't ask for a vote. I noticed the topic came up again so I'm responding. A number of people think this article needs to change. I'm simply voicing that opinion.--DannyBoy7783 20:50, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
 * It wasn't in response to you, DannyBoy. Admiral J. Nebulax 20:51, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Ok--DannyBoy7783 20:52, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm just saying that votes appear to be the only way to solve a problem on this page now. Admiral J. Nebulax 20:54, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
 * For good or bad, they tend to get more users involved.--DannyBoy7783 20:58, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
 * That's not the point of a vote, though. Admiral J. Nebulax 21:10, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
 * I assumed the point of a vote was to get users to give their opinions on an issue that was no longer progressing via discussion.--DannyBoy7783 21:17, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, it doesn't seem like that anymore. Admiral J. Nebulax 21:22, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes a number of people have stated that there article should be shortened. A larger number has said the article is just fine on two separate occasions. And the second vote, mind you, was, as of the 27th, three weeks ago, so lets cool your ion engines, okay? -- SFH 21:26, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
 * A larger number. See? If there was to be a vote, the outcome would remain the same&mdash;keeping it as is. Admiral J. Nebulax 21:28, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Making it larger: It's fine as it is. --Master Starkeiller 22:48, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
 * See? This article won't be split. Admiral J. Nebulax 23:34, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

"Triad Of Evil"
Palpatine knew that the end was near, and gave the majority of the galactic capital defense fleet to take down a "triad of evil".

Um, maybe I haven't gotten enough sleep, but that sentence makes no sense to me. Thanos6 20:54, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeah, it does. He knew that the CIS would strike at Coruscant, and he sent a lot of the Coruscant defense fleet to attack three CIS-held planets, planets Palpatine called the "triad of evil". Admiral J. Nebulax 21:07, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Then we need to say so, because that was incomprehensible to me. Thanos6 22:20, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Okay, then. Admiral J. Nebulax 00:45, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Alderaan WMDs
Er... where does this information come from regarding Palpatine's irrefutable evidence that Alderaan is developing weapons of mass destruction (line 418, or 416, or something like that)? Is this really something that was written, or is someone just trying to create more George W. Bush parallels?Cutch 17:59, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
 * It wasn't WMDs, just weapons, I believe. Admiral J. Nebulax 21:04, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, it definitely says "weapons of mass destruction"... and, as we all know, some people get very up in arms about the definition of WMDs. Should we change it to read weapons? Also, again - where does this come from? Cutch 22:05, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Change it to weapons. Admiral J. Nebulax 00:51, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I read about it in The Essential Guide to Planets and Moons. The term they used was "Bail Organa's biowar virus". That fits the WMD definition in my book. -- SFH 00:56, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Okay, then, no change. Admiral J. Nebulax 01:06, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Actually, folks, I was the one who put that bit in, and it was based off of material from the Galaxywide NewsNets articles from the Star Wars Adventure Journals of the 1990s. All subsequent references to this were based off of these articles. As for the Bush parallels, I'm a Republican, always have been, and I voted for Bush twice. As such, I'm hesitant to make such parallels unless the material clearly says it does, just as I'm hesitant to put any of my own junk in unless the material says so. That certain writers (Luceno comes foremost to mind) have made such parallels in the GFFA is clear (Department of Homeworld Security as a stand-in for guess-what?), and cannot be dismissed, but even that doesn't mean they think Bush is no better than Palpatine; they may have been using the language of our time to make their stories more comprehensible to the reading audience, just as I did when I used the phrase "weapons of mass destruction" (and who can deny that's what bioweapons are?). No such parallel, either direct or indirect, is present in the films themselves, and in any case, the broad outlines for the prequels were laid out in the 1970s. For this reason, a superb case can be made for Lucas basing the story of Palpatine in part on Richard Nixon (Lucas has repeatedly said as much), but far less so on Bush (he's not said this, and, according to some, has even denied it). Erik Pflueger 08:25, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Does it really matter? :P -Danik Kreldin 08:31, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, I don't like the idea of having something saying that Bush was similar to Palpatine. I still think that it should be removed if Lucas never said anything about it. Admiral J. Nebulax 12:35, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I sympathize with you, believe me. I remember moving the "political inspiration" section around just so I wouldn't have to see Bush's name sitting right next to Hitler's. So I changed the phrase to just "bioweapons" and reworked the grammar accordingly. It's actually more precise that way, anyway. If anyone wants to make a Bush parallel, let them, but I won't make it easy for them. ;) Erik Pflueger 21:23, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
 * It looks better now anyway. Admiral J. Nebulax 21:43, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, Bush's name seems very appropriate next to Hitler's to me. As long as it is mentioned, it's fine. 'Cause to some people, including me, the parallels are crystal clear. --Master Starkeiller 15:29, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, 'Keiller, that's just going to have to be one of the rare occasions where we disagree. Strongly. As always, you're free to have your opinion. When I get some energy (I'm recovering from a stomach virus... Ugh!), I'll be happy to discuss the matter, but on your personal page. We're so immature if we bog down this discussion page with this done-to-death topic. Be good out there! ;) Erik Pflueger 19:16, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Stop by my page any time. It's always a pleasure to call Bush names (I will present my reasons for doing so of course). --Master Starkeiller 12:58, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Sigh... I'll just keep taking the high road here... ;) Erik Pflueger 15:17, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Come on, no political debates here. Admiral J. Nebulax 20:24, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Jack. Erik Pflueger 21:36, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Damn you, Bush! Quit ruining the universe! --Imp 21:50, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Wow... I really threw a turd in the punch bowl, didn't I? Cutch 21:51, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I didn't want to say this earlier to avoid a political debate, but, since one is occuring... I'm not for Bush either. Admiral J. Nebulax 23:16, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I haven't really been following this discussion until now nor am I too familiar with this extremely long Palpatine article but I noticed that Erik said the following: "I remember moving the "political inspiration" section around just so I wouldn't have to see Bush's name sitting right next to Hitler's." I don't know how much of a tie there was between Bush and Hitler in the article before you moved it (in other words, an anti-Bush comparison) but I would strongly urge all wookieepedians to not rearrange material in favor of one side or the other. Like I said, I don't know what the article was like before so I'm not accusing Erik of wrong doing here. I'm simply saying that if the article was shuffled to avoid that connection and it was legitimate then that's no longer a NPOV. This is more a non-specific public service announcement more than anything. Oh, and boo on Bush! ;)--DannyBoy7783 23:38, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
 * We have really shifted the topic of discussion from "Bail Organa's biowar virus" here...But in this topic; my only comment is this: While I have a low opinion of President Bush, I feel that the politics of the real world (particularly those of the United States) are too divise for this Wiki to handle. We get into enough spats over what to put into articles (especially on this page), so why bring in more? My advice for this is to look to the example of Odan-Urr: “The galaxy will live in tranquility if certain matters are a bit overlooked or left unheard”. What I'm saying is, let's just ignore it. -- SFH 23:47, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Admiral J. Nebulax 00:02, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I second that motion...Cutch 00:19, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Okay. Let's stop it here. Admiral J. Nebulax 00:20, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
 * All right, I'd just like to clarify that by saying what I said I didn't want to ignite a political discussion. If anyone wants to talk about Bush, he's free to visit my user page or invite me to his. I also agree that this has no place here. Ummm... Move along, move along... http://media.ign.com/boardfaces/4.gif --Master Starkeiller 18:53, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Good. Admiral J. Nebulax 20:11, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

THE MOST POWERFULL FORCE USER OF ALL TIME
..."As Anakin, he had the greatest known midi-chlorian count (a measure of Force-aptitude) in the Galaxy, surpassing both Yoda and the Emperor's count. However, after all of his limbs were severed and he was severely burned on Mustafar he lost much of his Force potential. As Darth Vader, Anakin was believed to have had roughly 80% of the strength of the Emperor. Had he sustained none of his injuries on Mustafar he would have been twice as powerful". George lucas said so himself....Anakin was the strongest force user of all time but he never got the chance to tap into his full powers...if he ever reaced close to his maximum potentail...god help us...he would have destroyed both the emperor and yoda together

Retrieved from "http://starwars.wikicities.com/wiki/Talk:Yoda"
 * Yeah... but he didn't. I think you need to stop worrying about how big people's "force power percentage" was. --Imp 14:22, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeah. Admiral J. Nebulax 21:19, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
 * You also have to take into account training and wisdom. A simple force power percentage doesn't necessarily make someone better or stronger than someone else.--DannyBoy7783 21:32, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Exactly. A youngling could end up to be a very powerful Jedi, but only with the proper training. Admiral J. Nebulax 21:33, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

OH MY GOD!!!

 * I made a terrible mistake and the page was ruined! Someone with the power to revert please do it! I'm terribly sorry... --Master Starkeiller 15:16, 5 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Don't worry, someone's undone it already. If something like that ever happens again, all you need to do is go to the history and find the page before your edit, then you click edit and save :) YIIMM 15:25, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I tried it, doesn't work. It only allows me to edit the current page. --Master Starkeiller 15:26, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Perhaps you misunderstood Starkeiller. In the future should that happen, go to the history page, lick on the date for the previosu edit so it brings up the older page. Click edit, then select all the text and copy it. Then return to the article, select edit, erase what's there and paste in the text you copied. Then save.--DannyBoy7783 23:44, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

THE MOST POWERFUL SITH LORD OF ALL TIME
Obviously the candidates for this are Darth Sidious and Darth Revan
 * Okay, 1) completely uncalled for and unnecissary, and 2) this would be better on the Sith article if it was important and did not involve one person's opinion. Admiral J. Nebulax 20:13, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
 * And Jibers, please stop posting your "What if?"s now. Admiral J. Nebulax 21:46, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Just for the record, at least two official sources have stated that Sidious was "the most powerful Sith Lord in history": The Dark Side Sourcebook and the New Essential Guide to Chronology.--Exor 17:45, 27 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Most powerful, certainly in the sense that only he could achieve to (nearly) destroy the Jedi Order. - TopAce 18:08, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm not suprised that Palpatine is considered to be the most powerful. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 20:10, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

So how's about a new character box?
I saw a new format for a ship box at the Executor-class Star Dreadnought page, and thought it might be a good idea to try a new, sleek, updated character box for our hero. Incorporating the picture we all like, and using the up-to-date information from our current box, I gave it a whirl.

Arguments in favor:

1.) Adding the birth and death dates in the box may make the opening text less cluttered (I wanted to put the HoloNet News date for his birth in, and here seemed good. Please let me know if you disagree).

2.) Doesn't the color just go perfectly with Sidious' saber blade?

Of course, I didn't put it into the article yet, and I won't if I don't get the sense that it would be welcomed. But I put the sample here for you all to judge. So, what'dya think, folks? Erik Pflueger 04:49, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Shiny. I say go ahead and put it in. Saves alot of time if someone is looking for a few basic specifics without having to read through it all. Redemption 04:58, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, it's nice. Two comments -- the main is one that we are trying to shy away from individual infoboxes on most articles for a variety of reasons. We have had a variety of discussions about this lately, most recently over at Consensus track/New ship and vehicle infobox templates. Still, it's a good design, and we could use it as a template for all character articles, given few modifications. With our new templates (see Template:Ship and Template:Planet) we can "auto-hide" fields that we do not know, making it possible for us to create an in-depth character template that could cover any number of possible options. I agree though, the pl/plfs have got to go ;-). My second (and really minor) comment is that I don't particularly care for the term "Usage" for the last section. I think we can do better than that. RMF 05:06, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Awesome. --Master Starkeiller 10:07, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Far more superior. Admiral J. Nebulax 12:20, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
 * My mention of color brings something else to mind: should we change the colors depending on affiliation (i.e. red for Imperials and/or Sith, blue for Rebels and/or Jedi, another color for Fringe characters like smugglers, bounty hunters and such?) Or, perhaps, should every box, character, ship, planet or other, have the same color scheme? I wouldn't really mind if the colors for the Palpatine box were the same as the new blue-gray ship templates going around, since it was that template that got me interested in this question in the first place. Can we have some admins speak to us on this? Erik Pflueger 18:08, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I like that idea, Erik. Red looks good for Imperials. Admiral J. Nebulax 18:11, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Made some changes to the eras spot. Admiral J. Nebulax 18:13, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Jack, shouldn't we just stick to the names of eras as officially established at Lucasfilm? I concede that the Clone Wars has since become its own sub-era, since it was marketed that way. But the Galactic Civil War was covered in the Rebellion Era. Not that you did anything wrong, because you didn't, but I'm just thinking in terms of establishing a unified standard, just as RMF was taling about. Erik Pflueger 18:17, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
 * How about this, then? I personally think all of the era section on infoboxes should be done like this. Admiral J. Nebulax 18:25, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
 * And Erik, it's only a suggestion. This probably won't be the final one anyway, because I'm sure other changes will be made. Admiral J. Nebulax 18:25, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
 * No doubt, Jack, no doubt. And changes can improve things to a huge degree. My only remaining quibble with the changes you made is this: is the Imperial Era technically a LFL-sanctioned era? If so, go with it. If not, we'll have to make a change.

My understanding of the eras is that these are the relevant era titles and dates as established:

Rise of the Empire era: 1000-0 BBY Clone Wars era: 22-19 BBY Rebellion: 0-5 ABY New Republic era:5-25 ABY

Palpatine's lifespan was spread over all four of these eras, so I figure those all belong in the list.

Thanks for your support of the new box! Erik Pflueger 18:43, 11 February 2006 (UTC) I just created a new Wookieeproject for characters: WookieeProject Characters. Right now I only have an infobox (pretty much a rip-off of this one, but with auto-hide) but we can add more later. RMF 02:21, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
 * The Clone Wars are under the Rise of the Empire era. Great box, although the word "Usage" should probably be replaced. --Imp 18:49, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, I guess Clone Wars Era could be removed. And I agree that "Usage" should be replaced. Admiral J. Nebulax 20:04, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
 * As for infobox colors, can't we just go for colors that match the infobox picture? That's certainly more aesthetically than a fixed system based on affiliation. --Imp 22:07, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Oh, and we could probably turn this character infobox business into a great WookieeProject. --Imp 22:13, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Good idea. I'll see if I can't throw together an auto-hide character infobox and post it on a new 'project. RMF 01:53, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I did a compressing of the eras and affiliations lists, by using commas. Just tweaking. As Jack said, it probably won't be the last time. Erik Pflueger 22:37, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
 * It looks much better now. Admiral J. Nebulax 00:20, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I changed "Usage" to "Chronological and political information". --Imp 00:26, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Much better. Admiral J. Nebulax 00:27, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm with the group on that: it does look much better. Erik Pflueger 01:28, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I may get slapped for this, but is there a place I can go to get the codes to input any color I want? I may want to use light gray, for example, but I don't know if, to do that, I need to type in #f0f0f0f0 or something else. Where's the codes to the spectrum? Erik Pflueger 01:39, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
 * There's a color wheel here. RMF 01:53, 12 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks, RMF. By the way, I changed "Basic information" to "Biographical information," to better match the "Production information" bar of technologically-based template boxes. Erik Pflueger 02:32, 12 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I like it better than the old version, but do we still need the hair and eye color? - TopAce 10:26, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeah. I think it should stay. Admiral J. Nebulax 12:48, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Further discussion
Okay, here's how the Palpatine 'box looks with the auto-hide template. Think it's ready? Any other fields that should be added? If you guys think it looks better, we change the field titles to bold, like Eriks' box. RMF 18:33, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

We have been having this same basic discussion regarding ship/vehicle infoboxes recently. Relevant discussions: I agree though, we should develop a standard format for all categories&mdash;ships, vehicles, characters, planets, etc. We have several options: This is by no means exhaustive. There are probably numerous other pros and cons that I've forgotten; feel free to add them. I think making a number of auto-hide templates (for each affiliation) is our best bet overall, though there may be something I'm missing. Thoughts, opinions? RMF 22:27, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
 * That looks excellent! Good work, RMF! --Imp 18:36, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Hmm, what about color customization? Will we have to create seperate templates for infoboxes (such as Template:Infobox/All Terrain Tactical Enforcer)? --Imp 18:39, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Only if you want different colors for every character. The individual template for every article was one possible implementation of the new infoboxes, but we decided against it (well, the discussion's still in progress, technically: Consensus track/New ship and vehicle infobox templates). This version uses one central template, but automatically hides fields that are blank (unknown). Regarding colors, one idea that I had was to make several different charcter infoboxes, one for each major affiliation&mdash;e.g. a blue-colored box for the Empire and red-colored box for the Rebels, etc. If we ever wanted to change the colors, we would only have to edit one centralized template. What do you think? RMF 18:53, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Sounds like a plan. I'll make a proposal for which affilations warrant separate infoboxes on the Character Project page. --Imp 19:00, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I prefer each character having a different color to match his or her main pic. --Master Starkeiller 19:24, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
 * That would be nice (see my sandbox for examples). Infoboxes could be placed at Arthur Everyguy/Infobox or something. --Imp 19:30, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
 * The Durge one looks SO nice in this color... --Master Starkeiller 19:43, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I think this one is good enough to add into the article now. Should it be added now? Admiral J. Nebulax 20:31, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Of course it's good enough, but maybe we should discuss how we're going to organize these infoboxes first. Uniform infoboxes for affiliations, or individual infoboxes designed to match the infobox pictures? --Imp 20:36, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I'd go with uniform infoboxes for affiliations. It just seems a lot easier. Admiral J. Nebulax 20:50, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Consensus track/New ship and vehicle infobox templates
 * Wookieepedia talk:WookieeProject Vehicles
 * Individual infoboxes for every article, included on the article's page:
 * Advantages: Allows sweet color customization, nifty infobox tricks like alternating lines of color, high level of flexibility
 * Disadvantages: Messy code; esp. for newbies, no real infobox standard across articles of the same category, extremely difficult to modify if changes become necessary
 * Individual infoboxes for every article, created as template sub-pages
 * Advantages: Same as before, removes messy code from article
 * Disadvantages: Essentially the same as before, also hard to organize and could get out of control.
 * Broad templates with auto-hide capability
 * Advantages: One centrally located template allows for easy change, if necessary, more organized, doesn't require numerous sub-pages or messy code like the others
 * Disadvantags: More limited flexibility, no color tricks
 * I completely agree with you&mdash;uniform infoboxes for affiliations is our best bet. With individual infoboxes for each character we'd get one hell of an organizational job. --Imp 23:27, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree. This is the best way to have it. Admiral J. Nebulax 23:59, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Actually, Imp, I so loved your example boxes for Durge and Grievous that I'm beginning to think tailoring the color to the picture might be a really good idea after all (go to Imp's sandbox - linked above - to see the examples). As for this one, it's clear from the examples above that either red or gray works as a color for Palpatine's picture, and either would make me happy. What other colors can we try? Erik Pflueger 06:52, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't like the idea of uniform infoboxes for affiliations. On the other hand, mesa mooie mooie liken individual infoboxes for every article. --Master Starkeiller 11:58, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I'd really like to address your concerns, but we've taken up enough space on the Palpatine talk page. Let's move here and we can try to settle this. RMF 00:02, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, this current color isn't good at all. Stick with the red; it's much better. Admiral J. Nebulax 20:51, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I know that the discussion is continued in another spot, but does anyone agree with me that red show be used instead of gray? Admiral J. Nebulax 23:32, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree that the red did look somwhat better. However, being the one who changed it, I thought it was necessary because the red seemed to be the perfect color for the Rebel Alliance (given their emblem, obviously). I thought the darkish-grays would be appropriate for the dark side. See here for a list of all the diff. character templates based on affiliation. I'd have no prob. switching it back, if we could find a good substitute for the rebels. RMF 23:48, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
 * It's just that, when you think of the Sith, most people would usually think of the red lightsaber blades. Admiral J. Nebulax 23:53, 13 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Discussion continued HERE.

Lincoln, Nixon, etc.
What are the sources telling us that Lucas based aspects of Palpatine on Lincoln, Nixon, or other political figures? Due to the possibly controversial nature of identifying Palpatine with practically any political figure, we should probably give sources (through external links and references to books.) I'm sure I've read references where Lucas compares Palpatine to Nixon, Hitler, and Julius Caesar, but I can't recall them specifically.

Additionally, a big chunk of the section discussing the real-world parallels seems to be less about Palpatine being similar to real figures and more about Abe Lincoln being a bad president. This should probably be heavily edited as well as being sourced &mdash; it's as out-of-place as a polemic against current political figures.

(Yes, I know this was briefly discussed before with respect to George W. Bush. I'm sorry to bring it up again, but upon reading the current state of it, I don't like it, and I think it needs attention.) &mdash; Silly Dan 00:06, 15 February 2006 (UTC) I have a list of sites mentioning these parallels... maybe we should just place those somewhere under this heading as links? I wouldn't object to the simplification of that part of the article. Cutch 01:51, 15 February 2006 (UTC) http://www.lewrockwell.com/dieteman/dieteman113.html http://lancemannion.typepad.com/lance_mannion/2005/07/only_the_sith_d.html http://publicola.mu.nu/archives/2004/10/10/star_wars_the_unreconstructed_strikes_back.html http://www.jdedman.com/sw-civilwar.htm
 * I agree. While Lucas has probably stated all of this, it should be in one simple sentence (one for each U.S. President). Admiral J. Nebulax 00:33, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I have to say that I've added to part of the Lincoln reference (specifically the bit about SC Justice Taney); I remember Lucas saying it somewhere, and the parallels seem even more blatant than other political references, what with the Grand Army of the Republic, the Confederacy, a Civil War, etc. That being said... I DO think that Lincoln was the inspiration for Palpatine, and was, in truth, the closest thing to a dictator that the United States of America has ever had (or, frankly, will ever have). Anyone who wants to discuss this can come over to my talk page, but I won't fill it up here.
 * Put the links up on the talk page -- if they have sourced quotes, we're better off referring to them directly (I suspect a lot of those sites would have a real-world axe to grind, and therefore not relevant or objective enough to be external links.) Mentioning the obvious significant story parallels, such as the use of "Homeworld Security Command" by Luceno and Stover or the "Grand Army vs. Confederacy" parallels don't need sourcing, but talking too much about it without Lucas quotes could be interpreted as ascribing political opinions (on the right or the left) to Lucas that he may not actually hold. &mdash; Silly Dan 02:06, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Sounds good to me. For the most part, they ARE editorials, but if you dig through them, you can find some the parallels they cite. Even more interesting is that the first two are left-wing and the last two are right, as near as I can tell. Granted, I'd have to assume the site with the picture of the gun on it has a politcal agenda, LOL:

The last one really seems to be the most fact-based and researched. Cutch 02:08, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

To be honest, folks, the one historical or political figure I've ever heard Lucas make any specific reference to when describing Palpatine's character or actions is Nixon; you have only to listen to the ROTS commentary, or read any number of official behind-the-scenes books. Ceasar and Hitler were mentioned once in the AOTC commentary, but only once. Other references to politicians, whether Lincoln, Bush, or anyone else, have not been said by Lucas specifically, to my knowledge (and that's pretty extensive knowledge). He may have said something I might have missed, but I agree that the only way to do this properly is to cite quotes by Lucas personally. Then, at least we have the creator's words to back up anything we write - as it should be. Erik Pflueger 02:57, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Here's an article in the Billings Gazette that comes up when googling "Palpatine Bush Lucas". I recall similar articles (probably from wire services) popping up when ROTS appeared at Cannes.  It mentions that:
 * Rick McCallum recognized Bush parallels but claimed they were unintentional
 * McDiarmid compared Anakin's "If you're not with me..." line to Slobodan Milosevic
 * Lucas was inspired in the early 70s by Nixon, but says that "No matter who you look at in history, the story is always the same."
 * Lincoln is not mentioned at all, although the current state of our Palpatine article talks more about him than any other politician.


 * It seems to me that the blog posts Cutch links to mostly show that since Palpatine took the usual steps dictators have historically used to take control of democracies and constitutional republics, those inclined to think of Lincoln, Bush, Nixon, or any other politician as a dictator in the making will be able to draw parallels between Palpatine and their least favourite politico. Without quotes from Lucas (or, for that matter, any EU authors who've written about the Emperor), I'm inclined to say the Lincoln paragraph should be reduced to "Some fans see parallels between Palpatine and American President Abraham Lincoln, who also centralized political power in response to a secessionist Confederacy."  &mdash; Silly Dan 03:50, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree. Admiral J. Nebulax 21:22, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

OK everyone: the Sandbox has my proposed rewrite of that section. I think that whatever we do, we should keep that section short, and only add external links and references to actual Lucas or EU author quotes, rather than third-party editorials or weblogs. What do people think? &mdash; Silly Dan 04:14, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Be-autiful! Cutch 04:19, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I can totally live with this. Erik Pflueger 04:22, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Done. &mdash; Silly Dan 04:28, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Star Wars Roleplaying Game
This is listed as one of the sources. It'd be nice if this was elaborated a bit... --Imp 21:28, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes. Alone, it's not much of a source. Admiral J. Nebulax 21:30, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Too many quotes
Seems like there's a quote every couple of paragraphs in this article. Do we really need them? --MarcK [talk] 14:11, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure we really do. Erik Pflueger 18:44, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree, there are too many. Perhaps some should be deleted or moved to Wikiquote:Palpatine if they aren't already there.--DannyBoy7783 19:06, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Actually, the majority should stay. Admiral J. Nebulax 21:29, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Did you ever think you'd see the day when Danny and I agreed on something about this page concerning too many words?! ;) Nevertheless, the majority should stay, it's just that they can't be thrown in haphazardly, just under section heads. I imagine that, once this baby is really hammered into shape and, especially, stabilized (that is, when we've incorporated all the information we have, and updates are limited to just putting in the occasional fresh bit of info), this won't be a problem at all. Let's just let the article mature; it'll all work out right. :) Erik Pflueger 04:27, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
 * If a quote seems inappropriate, then we should move it or remove it. But removing quotes for the sake of removing them is stupid. Most quotes in the article serve a purpose and should stay where they are. --Master Starkeiller 12:56, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Worry not, 'Keiller. I'm not for removing any of them at this time. They are all appropriate for the sections they're at, it's just a question of formatting. That's all. So may I suggest, everyone, that we not go to a long and drawn-out discussion on this? As I said, once this page is as complete as possible, then we can get a better idea of what needs to stay in the quote department and what does not. We may yet decide that nothing should be removed. But let that decision wait for now. Erik Pflueger 13:08, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree. Admiral J. Nebulax 20:38, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Sounds good to me.--DannyBoy7783 21:43, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Personally, I think the more quotes, the better. Admiral J. Nebulax 01:49, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
 * And you may just be right. Like Starkeiller, I won't cut anything just for the sake of cutting. And if it does the article good to have more, then by all means, let there be more, as long as they're inserted according to the format rules. As I said, we won't really have an answer, or need one, until a lot of other work as been done. Let people add quotes, if that's what they wish. Erik Pflueger 02:17, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
 * If the quotes talk about the subject of the article, keep them in. Admiral J. Nebulax 12:47, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

Force Abilities
I just noticed that in the section about Palpatine's abilities and traits there is no mention of his power in the Force. Everything else about Palpatine's potential (lightsaber duelest, strategist, politician,etc) but not his most powerful trait: the dark side. Am I mistaken and this is covered elsewhere in the article? It is a long and complete article. I just feel that if Palpatine's mastery of the Force isin't addressed it wouldn't do the character justice. Or is it too obvious to include? Maphisto86 15:49, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
 * His most powerful trait wasn't the dark side. Plus, he wasn't a master of the Force. No one could be a master of the Force. Admiral J. Nebulax 21:21, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
 * What the heck do you mean Nebulax? What was his most powerful trait then?, and of course he was a 'master of the force' as he was a 'Sith Master'. I know it is impossible to actually master all of the force but that is not the point--Darth Mantus 11:52, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
 * The dark side alone was not his most powerful trait, as the dark side is not a trait. Traits are characteristics of a person. The dark side really can't be a characteristic. Admiral J. Nebulax 12:44, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
 * You are being difficult and arguing semantics Jack. Maphisto is trying to raise an issue here. If Palpatine's use of the Force (his abilities/manipulation of it) isn't covered then it should be.--DannyBoy7783 15:50, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I know it should be. I'm just saying that saying "the dark side was Palpatine's greatest trait" is not exactly the way to say it. Admiral J. Nebulax 15:53, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
 * That's not the issue here so ragging on the guy for poor wording isn't productive.--DannyBoy7783 16:18, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Fine, DannyBoy, but his greatest traits were dark side powers he mastered, not the dark side as a whole. Just saying. Admiral J. Nebulax 17:09, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Alright. Is it covered in the article?--DannyBoy7783 19:07, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure. If it is, it's probably not a lot. Admiral J. Nebulax 21:06, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I'll put Erik to work then :) --DannyBoy7783 23:36, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Hey, we could all work on it. Admiral J. Nebulax 00:15, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Seriously Jack, are you a robot? I was kidding man. Lighten up a little bit.--DannyBoy7783 00:33, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Okay, since my opinion's been requested, here's my take. That Palpatine's very strong in the Force, to me, goes without saying. Just how strong, we don't know; no one's bothered to tell us his midi-chlorian count. But it's a moot point, because it doesn't tell us what his strengths really were. A lot of characters in Star Wars are strong in the Force. To me, his strengths, the things he relied on to come to power to a very large degree, are twofold:

1.) He had the ability to mask his power, and his identity as a Sith, from the most powerful Jedi in the order, even when they were right next to him. If that ability's been named yet, I don't know, I'll have to look it up, and my Star Wars library is in another house than the one I'm living in with my fiancee. But as early as the publishing of Rogue Planet (which is, what, 2000?), that ability's been mentioned, and even then I knew it applied to Our Hero. In fact, it is implied in both Labyrinth of Evil and the ROTS Visual Dictionary that he was born with the power to walk among his enemies unseen.

2.) He had the ability to foresee events. More specifically, I believe, he had the ability to look at the various potentialities stemming forward from the present, and knew what actions to take so that the potentiality he liked the best was the one that came to pass. This is not just a Force power, it's a Force power he exploited by using his own natural ability to navigate through the shark-pool that is politics. If someone else had that Force power, he still might not have been able to act on it if he lacked that natural ability.

So those are the biggies to me. The rest, that he can shoot some mean-ass purple lightning and such, is really less important to how he rose to power than those two. And more than both of those, comes the fact that he was, well, EVIL. Without that, both of those biggie powers wouldn't have been exploited so. Erik Pflueger 02:54, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Great stuff Erik, though even if his actual force usage (such as the lightning, throwing senate pods, etc) wasn't imperative to his rise to power it is still important to Palpatine as an individual. The focus isn't just his rise to power but every aspect of him whether it be major or minor.--DannyBoy7783 04:13, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Aye, you're right, DannyBoy. I confess I forgot about the throwing Senate pods around bit. Shame on me. :) I'll work on the minor aspects when I can. Erik Pflueger 13:13, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
 * He may be a great politician and puppeteer but he still has some impressive force moves as we've seen and read. Thanks for the help Erik.--DannyBoy7783 18:04, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't know if I really helped in the way any of you wanted, but thanks back. You're absolutely right, Dan, the man's got moves. The one fancy move (though it's not really a Force move) I've just been unable to take seriously is the one where he and Mace Windu are fighting in his office, the posse's already dead, he's just bouncing and flipping and spinning all over the place, and Mace is just slowly advancing, barely moving his blade, as if to say "Listen, I'll be right here whenever you're ready to actually duel me." I know Ian had very little lead time in which to practice some moves, and they relied on stunt doubles and CGI for the bulk of it, but that was just ILM going overboard, if you ask me. The rest I was fine with, because Ian sells it as an actor. And let's face it, none of us would put so much effort into the character's page if Ian hadn't sold him to us. He can throw Senate pods all over the place, but we buy it because Ian's spent the last two and a half films getting us invested. That's how good he is; a lesser actor would have failed. Erik Pflueger 04:19, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm just glad they didn't spoil the whole thing in Episodes I or II. Admiral J. Nebulax 20:33, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I just saw this: Force Storm. Pretty impressive.--DannyBoy7783 23:49, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Indeed. Perhaps this was Palpatine's strongest trait. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 23:51, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Saying that the Dark Side of the Force is Palpatine's strongest trait isn't too far-fetched. He himself has stated "I AM the Dark Side.", and in Empire's End said he gave his soul to the Dark Side itself on Korriban. As I see it, you can't really define Palpatine's most potent ability. Let's face it, he's too well rounded; the man's a genius, a patron of the arts, a master strategist, harbors a deep understanding of psychology, is an outstanding politician, has an unparalleled connection to the Dark Side of the Force, and has nearly matchless saber skills. Really, all of these strengths should be cited without favor to any individual trait.--Exor 01:05, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Again, saying "the dark side was Palpatine's strongest trait" is too vague. You need to get more in depth on the specific trait that was Palpatine's strongest. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 00:42, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I never said it wasn't, I merely stated that it wouldn't be too out there for a person to believe. I believe all of his strengths should be cited without any particular emphasis made on any one trait as his strongest. --Exor 01:05, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Palpatine's most powerful ability was the Force Storm - which, coincidentally, was the most powerful and most destructive Force ability known. I have a complete list of Palpatine's known powers taken from the Imperial Sourcebook and the Dark Side Sourcebook, plus his RPG stats. I could always list them here if you guys want. -Danik Kreldin 01:13, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
 * If you wouldn't mind, please do. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 01:53, 1 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Alright, this is the list of Palpatine's known powers - but he was considered to have more, especially archaic ones. This based on the D6 sourcebooks, and are canonical; the three main stats for Force powers are Control, Sense and Alter. Palpatine's Control was 15D+2, his Sense was 17D, and his Alter was 15D+1, pretty much making him the most powerful Force user in the galaxy. For a comparison, Luke Skywalker, at the time of Dark Empire, only had 13D+1 control, 11D+1 Sense, and 10D+2 Alter.

Control: Absorb/dissipate energy, Accelerate healing, Concentrate, Control Pain, Detoxify poison, Enhance Attribute, Hibernation trance, Rage, Target, Reduce injury, Remain conscious, Reist stun, Short-Term Memory Enhancement

Sense: Combat sense, Danger sense, Instinctive astrogation, Life detection, Life sense, Magnify senses, Recepective telepathy, Sense Force, sense path

Alter: Injure/kill, telekinesis

Control and Sense: Farseeing, lightsaber combat, projective telepathy

Control and Alter: Accelerate another's healing, control another's pain, feed on dark side, Force lightning, inflict pain, return another to consciousness, transfer Force, battle meditation

Control, Sense and Alter: Affect mind, control mind, doppelganger, drain life essence, enhanced coordination, telekinetic kill, transfer life, Force storms

Sense and Alter: Dim other's senses
 * Thank you. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 20:46, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Age
Where did it come from?
 * If you check the archives, there's a source for it. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 23:43, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, archives? What archives? It's not that I don't believe you, someone from another site doesn't believe me about his age, so I have to fund the source. Don't you hate it when that happens?
 * It's here: Talk:Palpatine/Archive1. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 23:54, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I have to admit I was scared for a moment when I saw Age in Contents... --Master Starkeiller 20:46, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Why, exactly? Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 20:50, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
 * That was one of the biggest edit wars in Wookiepedia history...wouldn't want it to start again.&mdash;Silly Dan (talk) 22:31, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
 * That's why I call it the Great Edit War. If you're wondering why, it's name is based off the Great Sith War. -- SFH 22:51, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Oh. I believe that was shortly before I became a Wookieepedian. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 00:07, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Actually, I was referring to something that happened when you were just starting out here (though you were only a commander in those days. 8) &mdash;Silly Dan (talk) 00:14, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Oh. I really don't remember the days I was a commander... ;) Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 00:17, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

Vader on the temple
I doubt this: Consider how many troopers the youngling that got killed in front of Bail Organa killed before getting hit and multiply that up by a decent number and I would have serious doubts that the 501st could handle the temple alone. -- TheDarkArchon 21:54, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, this shouldn't be in here. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 22:49, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I put this in there based on material from Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader. I'll find the page numbers and quotes if necessary. By the way, regardless of how well Zett Jukassa acquitted himself, that doesn't mean that a detachment of battle-hardened clones whose maximum numbers were over 9000 couldn't take care of a largely empty structure whose complement, largely untrained, is quite significantly below that. In any case, the line is in there because the book said it. If an official source says it, it should be in here. Erik Pflueger 01:59, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Fair enough. I didn't think there were that many clones in the temple and taking that into account would make a proper eradication by the 501st feasible but not without heavy losses (Though this shouldn't be mentioned in the main article as this is just speculation) -- TheDarkArchon 09:44, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Okay, then. And if it's from a book, it probably should be in there. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 22:51, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Woah!
Hang on, hang on, hang on! Where do we get irrefutable proof that Anakin is indeed the creation of Darth Plagueis? I thought this was merely fanboy speculation...


 * Not only is it glaringly obvious in the movie, and not only is it more or less stated in the novelization, but it's pretty much confirmed in The New Essential Chronology. Whether it was Plagueis who was responsible, or Sidious after his master's death, is unknown, however. -Danik Kreldin 17:33, 8 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Err, I wouldn't consider the mention it has in the movie to be 'glaringly obvious', and I must admit I have read neither the novelization or the Chronology. Is there some way you could relate to me how the Chronology confirms this? I don't wish to start an argument but I would like some confirmation on this one way or the other, since the official databank implies that the circumstances surrounding Anakin's 'creation', whether through 'immaculate conception' or 'sith experiment' have not been fully revealed...


 * If you take everything said in the movie out of context, then I think it is obvious.. but, anyway, as for the Chronology...

from page 32... "Palpatine - under the Sith name Darth Sidious - learned dark traditions from Plagueis, but grew concerned over his Master's stated intentions to create life from nothing. The child that resulted from this Force miracle, Plagueis insisted, would be the living embodiment of the Force itself - and at that moment, Sidious knew that his Master was discussing Sidious's replacement. Soon after, Sidious killed Darth Plagueis in his sleep. The work necessary to create a Force-conceived child continued, however. It is unclear whether Plagueis had initiated the process b efore his death, or whether Sidious instead implemented his former Master's scheme for his own dark purposes.

On Tatooine, the slave Shmi Skywalker had given birth to a child more powerful in the FOrce than any other in history - the apparent product of forbidden research initiated by Darth Plagueis and taken up by Darth Sidious. This boy, Anakin Skywalker, had seemingly not been conceived by a human father, but by midi-chlorians themselves. Palpatine kept a close watch on Anakin as the boy grew. If trained as a Sith apprentice, such a child could be vastly more powerful than Maul."

from page 40... "Anakin's mother, Shami, confirmed in her own words what Qui-Gon had already suspected - the boy was immeasurably strong in the Force. Neither knew of Darth Plagueis's suspected involvement in inducing midi-chlorians to create life, though Shmi informed Qui-Gon that Anakin had no natural father."

from page 41... "Darth Sidious learned of his enemies' arrival on Tatooine. He dispatched his apprentice Darth Maul in order to prevent the Jedi from meddling with Anakin Skywalker's fate."

from page 82... "Palpatine had carefully cultivated Anakin's hopes for preventing this dire premonition, and had revealed everything to Anakin: Palpatine's secret identity as Darth Sidious. His murder of his own Master, Darth Plagueis. The role that the Sith had played in creating Anakin by manipulating the midi-chlorians. And the hint that by studing the ways of the Sith, Anakin could learn to conquer death."

Not to mention it was George Lucas's intention, and the whole revelation was included in one of the earlier drafts, but was taken out with just a few hints left in, which we see in the movie. -Danik Kreldin 19:26, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Ahhhh, now I see! Well, thanks for clearing that up for me :)
 * So, it's a self-fullfilling prophesy. The Sith create the very being that will destroy them. Ironic. Cutch 21:32, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Very ironic. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 22:21, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I like it to. I mean I'm a big sith fan, but I love the idea of the Sith destroying themselves with the very weapon they created to destroy the jedi with.

82 BBY?
First of all, which source either states or hints that this was the year of his birth? Looking at past discussions, people note 84 BBY, not 82.

And I don't see any reference to this date being a possible cover either, just a plain, bombastic statement that he was born that year, which isn't even agreed upon. I also dislike this whole tone of the biography, being so far removed from the neutral tone of most articles here. This is an encyclopedia, not an exercise in prose. VT-16 16:53, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
 * The 82 BBY date comes from the Episode I Insider's Guide, and is backed up by a statement from Leland Chee about what he has in the Holocron. Check archives 2 and 3 of this talk page for links and quotes. It might be a bit too speculative to say he fudged his birthdate, but I think his early life is canonically said to be obscure (mostly in sourcebooks which predate the prequels, and therefore were written by authors who weren't allowed to make up details yet.) &mdash;Silly Dan (talk) 17:14, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
 * You're getting in on this discussion a little late. No, a LOT late. Both of your points have been argued in depth in the four pages of talk archives going back to the second month of Wookieepedia's existence. &mdash;Darth Culator   (talk)  17:28, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeah, arguements (often heated) about the age and the prose are all over the Palpatine talk pages. We have discussed these matters A LOT. Like Culator said, four pages of talk archives. --Master Starkeiller 19:01, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
 * OH GOD. FOUR of them? No wonder I couldn't find anything in the ONE that I looked in. Sorry about that! ^__^;;; VT-16 17:52, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Lucas Audio Commentary
I was listening to the audio commentary on the Revenge of the Sith DVD, and during the Mace-Palpatine duel, Lucas comments on how Palpatine was pretending to be weak - now I'm not trying to start a debate here, I have my own personal feelings regarding the matter, but what do you guys think? -Danik Kreldin 17:41, 8 March 2006 (UTC) I don't understand why some are reverting the article - George Lucas himself clearly states Palpatine was pretending. It's not a contested issue - give it up. --Danik Kreldin 20:33, 13 March 2006 (UTC) You honestly have no idea what you're talking about. Lucas specifically said Palpatine pretended to be weak. It doesn't matter if it's something he added later or not, it was still in the movie, and it's how it went down. Just because it wasn't originally going to take place like that means absolute shit. It ended up with Palpatine pretending to be weak. Just as Lucas said. Is there something you can't comprehend there? --Danik Kreldin 17:33, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, the fact that he was able to hurl lightning at Windu after his hand was cut off is pretty telling in of itself. -- SFH 20:06, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
 * So many people are dead-set convinced that Palpatine was genuinely begging for his life, though, and really was weak - so I'm seeing how they would respond to this. -Danik Kreldin 20:15, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
 * He plants the seeds of distrust of the Jedi in Anakin's mind and appears weak before him. It's all a part of Palpatine's plan. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 20:17, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, I fully agree. I knew from the start Palpatine was just playing Mace - but my point is, even today, there are still people who refuse to accept the truth, in face of volumes of evidence, and it pisses me off to no end. -Danik Kreldin 20:25, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Hey, it's their problem, not yours. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 20:27, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Plus, we know it's true. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 20:43, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeah, Palpatine wasn't weak, he was playing on Anakin's conflicted mind. The lightsaber energy mixing with the lightning may have screwed up his face, but he sure wasn't weak.
 * OMG ... u must listen correctly. Lucas said: "This scene always started out with Mace overpowering Palpatine". And, it is also said that the scene where palp pretends to lose his power was added later. The Producer on disk 2 said "They want to see who is stronger of them" (or something like that). Besides, u can read the following thread: http://forums.starwars.com/thread.jspa?threadID=207450&start=0 . There are also the facts. And there is no quote of any important star wars person who said palpatine faked the duel. instead, he lost the lightsaber duel. it's never ever being sad he faked the duel ... cause he lost.
 * I've seen a lot of quotes thrown around on this from Lucas and other people on both sides. None of them convince me absolutely one way or another. I think the article as it stands reflects that ambiguity and is NPOV. Yrfeloran 20:46, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
 * The point is, he wasn't overpowered. He wanted Anakin to think that he was weak, which he wasn't. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 20:51, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
 * For the anonymous user above: Lucas: This sequence was uh always started out with Mace overpowering Palpatine, and then Palpatine using his powers trying to destroy Mace, and Mace deflecting his rays with his lightsaber. And it was awlays was that Anakin cut the lightsaber out of his hand. But this part where he pretends to lose hisp ower and be weak was something that I added later.. Lucas's exact words. Anyone with the DVD can listen to it. --Danik Kreldin 20:53, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
 * There. Debate over. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 20:55, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Also, just a few minutes after that scene, Lucas states this in the commentary: The killing of Mace... He was trying to stop him from killing Palpatine.. which in essence was the right thing to do.. he didn't realize Palpatine was going to kill him.. Wow, Palpatine was going to kill Mace. --Danik Kreldin 20:56, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Why wouldn't he. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 20:58, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Eh, Debate is not over. There's nothing to say that Palpatine threw the lightsaber duel, only that he was pretending to be weaker than he was once he was disarmed and throwing lightning around. As opposed to the changes I was objecting to, where you say that Palpatine getting disarmed was part of his plot, and Palpatine was pretending the whole battle, which is not supported. (Lucas does say that Mace overpowers Palpatine in the same quote). The second quote is obviously saying that Anakin didn't realize that Palpatine was going to kill Mace after Anakin intervened on Palpatine's behalf. It's not saying that Palpatine was going to kill Mace anyway, only that Palpatine killed Mace once Anakin intervened and disarmed him. Yrfeloran 21:11, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
 * The way I see it, this debate is over. Lucas said it himself that he made Palpatine act and look weak. This was all a plot to make Anakin his apprentice. Maybe the fact that his lightsaber was thrown out of the window wasn't in his plot, or maybe it was. Palpatine was disarmed, which meant Anakin probably saw Windu trying to assassinate a disarmed enemy, which would not be right by any means. Then, the obviously not weak Palpatine shoots Force lightning at Windu. There's no way he was weak throughout all of that. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 22:41, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Wanna ignore George Lucas, heh? Well - fine. The debates not over. The quotes are stating this. And when u're not sure, read the thread I wrote above. (but - caution! there are more than 400 pages ... ). And, come on, even Palps cannot "forsee" that somebody would kick him in his face in the right moment. This is ridiculous! And the Producer said in a special disk 2 scene, both of them wanted to see who is stronger. And Mace won the lightsaber duel because of his incredible fighting skills. And, plz, no "palpatine plans this and that..." bla bla. Nobody can forsee everything. Example: He doesn't forsee Anakin to be in a machine, does he? After the duel with yoda, he only forsees that he's in danger. thats it.
 * Maybe so, but this was a ruse to draw Anakin over to the dark side. You have to admit that you know that. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 22:56, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
 * That's irrelevant. We're talking about the lightsaber duel. And u should know, that Palps lost it. And it makes sense. Everything makes sense; George also said: "Only Yoda and Mace can compete with the Emperor." So, what's ur problem? That he lost a lightsaber duel? Oh, come on, don't think Palps is a Darkside-God or something. He lost, but here is the clue: even if he lost, he could manage it that anakin turns to the dark side.
 * And he needed the Jedi to attack him in order to issue Order 66. He wants to be Emperor! This is his first goal; to turn anakin is second.
 * We can't reach a conclusion, so you can believe that he lost and I can believe that he didn't, but none of us can claim that "he lost, end of story" or that "he won, end of story". It is left AMBIGUOUS. So you can't say: "And u should know, that Palps lost it". --Master Starkeiller 20:20, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
 * To the anonymous user: Notice how well Palpatine fought against Fisto, Kolar, and Tiin. He easily defeated them, and they were skilled Jedi Masters. Then, Palpatine continues to fight Windu with skill, until he loses his lightsaber. Then, he's backed up again the edge of the window, and Anakin comes in. Palpatine does the "I'm weak" deal, then shoots Force lightning at Windu, which is, in turn, deflected back at him. However, this does not make Palpatine weak. After Anakin cuts off Windu's hand, Palpatine begins to fire more Sith lightning at Windu. Then, after Windu falls out throught the window, Palpatine gets up. I don't think he was actually weak. And Lucas himself stated that he later had it changed it to make Palpatine appear weaker. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 20:27, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
 * omg, lucas said: "But this part where he pretends to lose his power and be weak was something that I added later" What does this mean? Right! Before he added this part, Palpi lost, lost, lost and again, lost. So difficult to understand? Nobody of the VIPs in star wars say palpatine faked. nobody ... instead, they fought like real men. And come on, the part where he kills the so called jedi masters is bullshit. But that's another topic. lol, this could be the dumbest scene in the movie (where he kills the 3 "jedi masters").
 * It seems to me that you just have a severe case of dislike for Palpatine. Stemming from inherent Jedi fanboyism. Your opinions can't even be considered anymore because your opinions are based upon your immature fantasies of Jedi and their invincibility. I hate fanboys. Palpatine is not my favorite character - and I'm certainly no fanboy of his. But I do give credit where it's due - credit based upon fact, canon, and the Star Wars universe. Not my own personal beliefs. Just because you think Palpatine slaughtering three of the finest Jedi in a few seconds is dumb does not make it invalid, or anything else. It happened. Palpatine wiped them out. He was responsible for the collapse of the entire Jedi Order. Get over it and stop being a damn fanboy. No one likes them. --Danik Kreldin 17:10, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Hey, ur're insulting me, really. I'm NOT a fanboy; but I can understand what people like McCallum or George Lucas say. Mmmmhhh ... where is now the problem? I show the quotes and what's bad about the movie and he just insults me! that's not friendly! =(but, if u wanna ignore Lucas himself, it's ur problem, not mine.
 * The anon doesn't get it. Lucas added it, which changed the entire scene. Palpatine was pretending to be weak in the final version. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean you act like an asshole over it. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 20:08, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Ok, I'm out. Lucas said it ... but well, all I get here are insults like ass**** and so on. Wow; what a community. A really good style of speaking with others ... applause
 * That's only how we speak to the anons that keep it up and keep it up when they've been proved wrong numerous times. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 22:38, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Seems to me we'd respect him more if he actually, oh, I don't know... TOLD US HIS NAME! Anyone can hide behind anonymity and say whatever they want, but that doesn't make them right. I don't even have an alias, I use my REAL NAME! That's how much I respect my brethren here. Erik Pflueger 04:53, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Anons can be annoying. Something I adress with absolutely no subtlety here. No offence non-annoying anons (a rare breed indeed). The good admiral I consider to be our first line of defence against annoying anons.--Master Starkeiller 12:42, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
 * hey, i'm respecting anyone; but where am i proven wrong? when lucas himself said palpatine faked only his loss of power ... omg, what don't ya understand in the commentary?
 * Even the databank stating it: "The two dueled, transforming the office of politics into an arena of lightsaber combat. Windu overpowered Palpatine the instant Anakin Skywalker came running into the offices.

Skywalker witnessed a stunning sight: the Chancellor, cornered, with Windu looming over him with his lightsaber blade extended. Palpatine unleashed a torrent of Sith lightning at the Jedi Master, but Windu was able to deflect it back at the Chancellor. The evil energies twisted Palpatine's face as they flowed through him, scarring and disfiguring his once handsome features. His eyes burned yellow, his voice grew ragged and deep, and he became a well of dark side energies.

Palpatine slumped in the corner, seemingly too weak to continue the lightning assault. Fearing the Chancellor to be too powerful and too well connected, Windu decided he could not be taken alive. Before Windu could take justice into his own hands, though, Anakin sprung into action." Palpatine faked nothing but his "loss" of power.
 * Enough, already. Lucas said it himself. Lucas outranks the databank. Deal with it. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 20:31, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, at least Mr. Anonymous came to the table with some research material, I gotta admit. The problem is, there's really nothing in that bunch of Databank quotes to definitively prove or disprove what he's saying. It's far too vague. At least Lucas' own quotes point toward one conclusion or the other. But really, isn't this just the equivalent of the old kids' argument: "My dad can beat up your dad?" If you like either Windu or Palps, you can't stand the idea of the other guy overpowering your guy. We've had reasons for knock-down drag-outs on this page in the past (boy, haven't we?), but I don't see this as a reason for one now. Erik Pflueger 13:13, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
 * The point is, it's over now. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 14:36, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't care who wins, but if lucas says "the scene always started out with mace overpowering palpatine" and "but his part where he pretends to lose his power was added later" and mccallum says "they want to know who is stronger of them"(something like that), then, u're proven wrong. and with those sentences said i finish this topic once and for all
 * You don't get it, do you? Lucas is the creator of Star Wars. Lucas himself said it that Palpatine pretended to be weak was added later, therefore in the final version. Now it's over. You lose, anon. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 15:49, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
 * LOL. Nebulax is Greivous. "You lose, Jedi!"--Erl 23:26, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
 * You could say that. ;) Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 00:15, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Except you're an Admiral. Not a general. Ok, done with irrelevance now--Erl 04:28, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Palpatine is addicted to the Dark Side, not self-centred
I believe that Palpatine embodies much of the Dark Side itself. I also agree that the Dark Side is almost the ultimate narcotic for the users. If you look at it, Palpatine is self-centred, but he is controlled in a way by something, e.g., his voice changes drastically when Anakin joins the Dark Side, almost as if something else is speaking through him, much like the girl in the Exorcist movie.

He is so addicted to the dark side, that he is willing to sacrfice himself for its existance, like when he says to Luke "Strike me down with all of your hatred and your journey towards the Dark Side will be complete!" That sounds a lot like a heroin addict saying "Give me one more shot and I'll never do it again". He also shows a sacrificial position when he admits to Yoda, that Vader may become the dominant Sith, saying "You will not stop me, Darth Vader will become more powerful than either of us." This is not the speeking of a completely self-centred man, but of an addict.
 * Not really. Palpatine was a master of the dark side; he wasn't addicted to it. He had been taught the full power of the dark side, and he used it for his own will. Plus, if Luke would have struck him down, his body would have traveled to Byss and enter a clone body. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 20:46, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Or he probably would have just jumped into Luke. In the sense he needed it to survive death, he may have been an addict, but never forget what Obi-Wan said: "Palpatine is evil". -- SFH 00:07, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Maybe. But I don't think he could have done it easily; after all, Palpatine's spirit could have jumped into Luke's body at any one of his other deaths. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 03:02, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Palpatine is a master manipulator. Everything he does he does it to achieve a certain goal. He appears ready to put the revival of the Sith above his personal gain at times but he isn't addicted. --Master Starkeiller 20:02, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Exactly. Not addicted, but self-centered. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 20:03, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Palpatine's Artwork
I recently got Star Wars Chronicles: The Prequels and there are some good pictures of the artwork he kept such as the wall frieze and his various statues. Perhaps we could on this page or somewhere else have a gallery of the art he owned?--DannyBoy7783 14:41, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Perhaps a subsection in the gallery of Palpatine images? Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 20:25, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I've had the book myself since Christmas, Dan, and since I put in a section about his redecorating the Chancellor's office, why not have an image in there from the book? Every section ought to have at least one image. If a given section is big enough, it can have room for more than one. Whatever doesn't go in there should go into a gallery, as you and Jack suggested, or in individual articles in the 'Pedia devoted to each object.

As to which images? You should all state your preferences before anyone proceeds. But I have my suggestions from the Chronicles (p. 287). The image of the Sistros statue in the corner is clear (and the section goes into detail about the little goodie he's hidden inside), and so is that of the Sith chalice. I'm less sanguine about using the big frieze images, since they're not shot on the set, but in the workshop in which they were made (they were never on set, but added digitally by ILM after the shoot). But they may still work. In any case, someone else will have to put them in, I don't have the tech. But I like the idea. Erik Pflueger 23:25, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
 * "Whatever doesn't go in there should go into a gallery...". Even if the image is in the article, it could still be in the gallery. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 23:27, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
 * You're absolutely right, Jack. I once stopped by the Palpatine gallery and saw that, as a rule, all the images in our article also go there. My apologies; I should have spoken more clearly. Erik Pflueger 23:48, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Don't worry about it. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 00:04, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Oh, what do you know! There is a palpatine image gallery. I didn't even know. I'll get to work sometime soon and upload the images to the gallery page and when I'm done I'll put a notice here and you guys can decide which ones to stick in the article. Sound good?--DannyBoy7783 18:18, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Sure sounds sweet to me, Dan-O. Erik Pflueger 02:26, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Palpatine an orphan?
I was just flipping through Jango Fett: Open Seasons 1 and Sidious says "the most dangerous men are always orphans..." after learning that Jango's family is dead. This may be a bit of a stretch but that sounds to me like he may be hinting at his own family. Thoughts? I can upload the page if people want to see it.--DannyBoy7783 21:58, 19 March 2006 (UTC) Here's my take on this: All that is absolutely known about his parents is based on inferrence. The Rebel Alliance Sourcebook states (exact words) that "Palpatine started out as a senator and a noble, after all" which hints that he may have been born to a family of nobles. On a planet like Naboo, which is governed by a monarchy, albeit an elected one, this is not hard to conceive. But that's all that we know about the possible status of his parents. There's nothing there or anywhere else that says he wasn't also an orphan, but there's also nothing to say he was. But it's possible.
 * Well, that would explain why no one knew about Palpatine's parents... Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 22:14, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Could always add to the article that he may have been an orphan - based on statements to Jango Fett- but it has yet to be confirmed, or denied. --Danik Kreldin 02:28, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I added it.--DannyBoy7783 02:57, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't know for sure if Palpatine is an orphan, but in in the real world, Hitler was orphaned and became twisted, so the quote has some relevance and truth to it.

We also have to consider that the Dark Empire Sourcebook (p. 33) refers to a "remote grandniece," specifically Ederlathh Pallopides. The "remote" may be just a way of avoiding the obvious conclusion: if you have a niece, even a grandniece, then you have a sibling to sire it. Was that sibling a brother? A sister? There's nothing to say. The use of the term "grandniece" basically states that his sibling had a child, who later had a child named Ederlathh. My best guess is that the sibling, whatever the gender, had a girl, who married a male of the Pallopides family, hence the name.

So if there was (possibly) a sibling, and if he had (possibly) noble lineage, does this mean that the orphan theory is invalid? Not at all. Since someone mentioned Adolf Hitler (my specialty historical subject), let's use him as an example. Hitler was one of several children born to Alois and Klara Hitler, but only he and his younger sister Paula survived past a very young age to reach adulthood. He lost his father at age thirteen, and his mother at age eighteen. But he and Paula never really lost touch afterwards, and even during the height of his power he was dealing with a nephew, William Patrick Hitler (the son of a half-brother), who came to him hoping to profit from his famous uncle by getting a big job. Both sister and nephew survived him; Paula died in 1960, William in 1987.

So, yes, it is possible, based on that example, for Palpatine to have been born to a family of nobles, presumably in Theed, as one of two or even several children, and then to have been orphaned later, but still keeping tabs on his surviving relatives, even granting some titles after becoming Emperor (such as Lord Volpau). We can imagine anything about how the parents died; an accident, or perhaps even the sinister secret acts of Darth Plagueis. But until something comes out officially, we're all just blue-skying here. What's certain is that the parents have to leave the stage sometime; can Plagueis train him under their nose?

My problem is, a comment about the orphaning of Jango Fett does not constitute sufficient evidence to include this possibility, not to me. The examples I cited above, I feel, can justify including the references to his noble status, or his sibling(s). But this is different. I've read the comic DannyBoy cited, and I'm familiar with the line, but does it apply to Palpatine when Sidious says it? For all we know, that's a subtle dig against Dooku, who as a former Jedi was orphaned when he was taken by the order, and indeed Yoda: Dark Rendezvous implies in various places that Dooku felt he was orphaned. Doesn't mean that's what Sidious meant, just means that you can read the line more than one way.

I don't really intend to make a big stink of it, nor do I wish to hurt DannyBoy's feelings when he really had an excellent theory, but I'd just as soon not have it in the article until some more evidence comes to call, to make it something more than a theory. Can we consider that, perhaps? Erik Pflueger 04:37, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Just because you don't agree with my assessment of his comment doesn't mean the comment should be removed. As far as his parents are concerned we just don't know what happened or how Palpatine became Plagueis's apprentice.--DannyBoy7783 17:11, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I want to point out, however, that, regardless of my opinion about whether or not to include the "orphan" bit, the way DannyBoy wrote it in the article is so good that it deserves the complement. As I said, I'm not married to this issue (and, who knows, someone official may read it and go, "they may be onto something here" and make it a fact). But it was well done. Good job. Erik Pflueger 04:54, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I figured you'd disagree with me Erik but it doesn't hurt my feelings (thanks for the compliments). The way I wrote it does not state that it is fact but presents the quote and throws in some theories relevant to that section. Feel free to continue to expand on it by including the Dooku theory as well. I'm also not contradicting his background as a member of a noble's family. I'm thinking more like he was born into the family and they were killed or Palpatine was kidnapped from them, effectively orphaning him. I think, until more information comes forward, that's ok to leave it in, or at the least leave the quote and remove the theories I tossed in and leave it up to the reader to decide. The quote is suggestive of something and that by itself is important. Perhaps my theories do not belong (I don't want to sound like I'm trying to include fanon or anything) but the quote at least does.--DannyBoy7783 05:31, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
 * You just described the reason I love how it was written; it clearly says it's a theory, but stands up well and is good in terms of prose. Our only difference is that you think we should keep it until it's contradicted officially, and I think we shouldn't have it until it's backed up officially. But you know what? I said I wasn't married to the issue. Maybe it needs a slight weight-loss, but hell, we can do that later. I've changed my mind; let's keep it for now. ;) Erik Pflueger 06:00, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I know that this has nothing to do with this much, but in my fan-fic on Palpatine's past I had his parents assassinated and Palpatine enacting his revenge on the assassinators--Darth Mantus 12:33, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Hm... The only way I'd come to terms with the notion of Palpatine having parents would be if he killed them. More like, slaughtered them... Anyway, I vote for it to be removed for a very simple reason: Palpy didn't think that he was dangerous in the sense Jango was. Palpy thought that he did what he did for what he considered to be a noble cause, the revenge of the Sith, and he'd never draw a parallel between himself and Jango, a cold-blooded murderer in the same way that Yoda or Mace wouldn't. --Master Starkeiller 12:54, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I disagree. Palpatine was a Sith and hew knew that he was dangerous because of that fact.
 * Actually, I agree with you, Danny, but I don't think it should be in the article. We don't know for sure yet. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 20:53, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
 * What about including the quote and a comment saying it could apply to his past in the BTS section? As it isn't fact, you are right it shouldn't be in the main article biography but perhaps it can be incorporated elsewhere? I think that's a fair compromise.--DannyBoy7783 21:08, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
 * That works for me. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 21:25, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Now that's a great compromise. I'd say I'm happy with that. DannyBoy wins, Jack wins, I win, everybody wins. "So let it be written, so let it be done!" Erik Pflueger 23:22, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Is that sarcasm? ;) Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 00:23, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
 * No, my friend, I don't do written sarcasm; I have a hard time making it drip with the same amount of venom as my spoken sarcasm. In any case, I try to go by my maxim: If you don't say what you mean, you can never mean what you say. And when I say it's a good idea, I mean it. But looking at the text, I can't say I blame you for thinking otherwise; there's just too many italicized words. And quoting The Ten Commandments? What am I, Yul Brenner? :) Erik Pflueger
 * Seeing as this page is your baby Erik, why don't you make the changes? I don't have nearly as much invested here so I'd rather you (and Jack) be happy with the edit.--DannyBoy7783 15:50, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeah, Erik, you're the one who made most of this page come to life. If you need any help, call me. ;) Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 20:52, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I thank you both for your confidences, but, honestly, I wouldn't have to do much of anything to what you wrote, DannyBoy, just move it to the Behind the Scenes section as you suggested. That's how well you wrote it. I'll just make a little subsection there about the possibility of his being an orphan. If they can devote an entire subsection to Palpatine's face scars, or to his lightsabers, then why not this topic?

And I want to go on record about what I think about DannyBoy's theory after sleeping on it for a few days. I REALLY LIKE IT. It doesn't at all contradict what little we know about Palpatine's youth (or if it did, we could make it fit, just as we've discussed), it ties up quite a few potential loose ends, and it potentially tells volumes about his character: part of the reason he's just not capable of genuine affection is that he was robbed of the chance to learn in the natural way. Then Plagueis got his hooks into him.

If there were just a little more in the way of official material leaning toward it, I'd be the first to promote it going in the article proper. And if it turned out that - in the unlikely event that LFL allows the EU to explore Palpatine's backstory like we'd like them to - this was the explanation LFL chose, no one would be more pleased than I. So, pat yourself on the back, DannyBoy. It's well earned. Erik Pflueger 03:45, 22 March 2006 (UTC) Wow, actually I think he's on to something there. How could Plagueis train Palpatine under his parents nose? Heck Plagueis could've adopted palpatine, under the guise as an instructor in the ways of politics. Wow I really like this Danny Boy, someone get TastieTaste here and have him read this. Wow, If Plagueis had arranged palpatine's parents death, possibly he could have used this incident to show palpatine the weakness of the republic, and place the primary blame on the jedi for not using their power to save Palpatine's parents. Then he could subtly hint towards a group of force users that could right the wrongs in the galaxy, The Sith. Perhaps even showing Palpatine that the sith's empire was very much similar to Palpatine's view of how the republic should be, and Plagueis tells him that Palpatine is the only one who could do it, but only through Plagueis's guidance, and he would show him a power that would bring the galaxy under his will and control. This would give Palpatine a motive. It's brilliant! My good friend 'Keiller, I can assure you with some confidence that few people who can justly be labeled evil were born so. I happen to be a fan of "Nurture, not nature" when it comes to that. No serial murderer, no mass murderer, no tyrant, was necessarily destined to take those roles from conception. You may want to see the CBS miniseries Hitler: The Rise of Evil for an example of this. For that matter, read the Darth Maul journals. Would Maul have turned out differently had he not been raised in the Sith tradition? You bet. Or, wait a few months and read the upcoming Darth Bane book, and see if Bane was "born bad."
 * It looks good, Erik. Good job to both of you. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 20:40, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Anybody remember when DannyBoy and I were sparring over stuff? It's amazing the difference a few months make. I grow on people. Like a fungus. :) Erik Pflueger 02:53, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I realized my preference for this article won't ever happen so like they say "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em!" I thought about blowing you up with a death star super laser...but look what that got Tarkin? (I'm only kidding) :) --DannyBoy7783 04:25, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
 * You will deal with my Rebel friends soon enough... :) Erik Pflueger 04:33, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Behind the scenes is where it belongs indeed. --Master Starkeiller 14:44, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
 * "It's amazing the difference a few months make". Same with me. I believe it was with Xilentshadow over a few things... And now we're friends. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 21:24, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
 * We had a mild disagreement or two ourselves, Jack, and now we're friends. I think I remembered that lesson when I had my clash with DannyBoy, but I never expected that we'd both come around so well. I am glad he dispensed with the use of battle stations, however... ;) Erik Pflueger 22:26, 23 March 2006 (UTC).
 * Don't worry Erik, I still have some world devastators in storage. ;) --DannyBoy7783 03:18, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I'll see your World Devastator and raise you a Sun Crusher!!! ;) Erik Pflueger 03:48, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
 * A motive would take something away from the character. It would take everything away from the character. Palpy needs no motive because he is the source and embodiment of evil. The only story about Palpy's youth that would do him justice would be one that'll have him be inherently malevolent. If Palpy was made like Anakin, ensnared by evil and not a source of evil himself, a great character would be destroyed. --Master Starkeiller 12:04, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Palpatine was a human being, with all the complexity of human beings. If I were to lean toward your conception of the man, then I would agree that he had an innate talent for evil, like one can be a natural at painting or singing. He was a natural at evil, perhaps. But one has to learn to use any talent. Without whatever experiences he went through, whatever their nature, his innate evil would never have been given reign.

And this has to be stressed, 'Keiller: it doesn't make him less evil if he had a time where he was innocent, as we've been going on about in this page for months. Why? Because at some point, he did indeed become a conscious, willing participant in evil for its own sake, as the Dark Empire Sourcebook described him. He chose evil, when he could just as easily have done differently. I don't let him off the hook just because he wasn't inherently malevolent. He's still a dillhole. Whatever made him one doesn't take away from his character; it makes him a more complex character. Erik Pflueger 14:28, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Then I'd prefer it if his earlier years were left untouched. --Master Starkeiller 14:44, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Amen Erik! The simple act of revealing his past doesn't, by default, ruin him as a character. Only a poorly written one does.--DannyBoy7783 14:44, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 21:06, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Is it site policy to only link names once per paragraph?--DannyBoy7783 22:42, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
 * "Then I'd prefer it if his earlier years were left untouched." In truth, 'Keiller, you'll likely get your wish: Lucas has shown no inclination to turn the EU toward this subject, or to Yoda's backstory, or many other things we'd love to know about. In fact, it would seem that he's specifically forbidden it. Even attempts to give Palpatine or Dooku a first name have been shot down by Guess-Who.

But this does not mean that I can support this line of thought. If anything does emerge about Palpatine's backstory, I will include it here. In fact, I would feel obligated to do so. I cannot fight to defend the inclusion of all information in this page, however minor, as I have done, and yet stay my hand when it comes to this fundamental aspect of the character. If, for instance, the "orphan" theory is the accepted course LFL eventually takes, I'll be putting it in here.

Just making Palpatine a mystery figure is not sufficient to me. I don't believe in enigmas. If I did, then what am I spending my time on this page for? What are any of us doing here, if that's the case? Erik Pflueger 22:44, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I think that Lucas should give us more information on Palpatine, even if that doesn't include a first name. Come on, GL, don't leave us in the dark about Palpatine's history. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 22:47, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
 * There is a policy that keeps EU authors away from Palpy and Yoda's past. Thank God... Don't get me wrong, I love the EU and I'm a great defender of it, but only Lucas can handle this. And I'm sure he won't, as he wants keep some mysteries, and Palpy's past's on the top of the list. Lucas wants some answers left unanswered, I'm sure I've heard him saying it in some DVD Bonus Disc or something. And I say amen to that. --Master Starkeiller 23:19, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Lucas can't handle anything. He can write a good outline for a story but that is about it. Most of the stuff I love about Star Wars comes from the EU. I wouldn't trust Lucas to do backstory for Palpatine or Yoda. Look what he did to Vader? I can't look at him now without thinking he's just some naive, whiny bitch under the armor...--DannyBoy7783 23:48, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
 * That's the point, that's what he is... Palpy is the real bad guy here, Vader's just a naive, whiny bitch that was ensnared by the bag guy, he's the tragic character... THAT'S why Palpy musn't get a backstory. Vader has a story, and it's a sad one. Palpy's story is two syllables: E-VIL and should stay that way if you ask me... --Master Starkeiller 00:17, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, we'll come to see his point of view and why exactly he became a Sith if his early history is released. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 00:23, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Uh, Starkeiller, could you just stop changing your last paragraph? Because I got a million edit conflict messages when I was trying to write something. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 00:26, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Don't worry, that's its final form. --Master Starkeiller 11:52, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Thank you. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 12:52, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Red hair?
Palpatine has red hair? Whaa? --Danik Kreldin 21:40, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
 * It's in a promotional image from The Phantom Menace, I believe. It's a mix of red and white, though. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 21:41, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
 * As well as his clone bodies from Dark Empire...--DannyBoy7783 04:29, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Good point. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 20:49, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Spoken Languages
Does the article say what languages ol' Palps spoke? If so, we need to include Talz and Ithorian, vas-a-vis evidence in the Clone Wars cartoons. Cutch 00:38, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Just because he understood it doesn't mean he spoke it. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 00:43, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Sigh. Technicalities, technicalities. Okay, like Huttese, we know that he at least had a working language of Talz and Ithorian. Is this in the article? Cutch 00:47, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I think it's in there somewhere. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 00:49, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, a Find search of the pages reveals no mention of "Talz" or "Ithorian". Cutch 00:54, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
 * So, what do we put in? "Palpatine understood many languages"? And then where do we put it? Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 16:48, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
 * http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=starwars/article/sw20050714a: Read/Write Basic, Read/Write Bothese, Read/Write Gran, Read/Write Mon Calamarian, Read/Write Rodese, Read/Write Ryl, Read/Write Sith, [...] Speak Basic, Speak Bothese, Speak Gran, Speak Mon Calamarian, Speak Rodese, Speak Ryl, Speak Sith. --Master Starkeiller 18:57, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I would argue that game stats are NOT the best source for this sort of thing. Yrfeloran 19:19, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree. Let's keep it general. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 13:19, 5 April 2006 (PDT)
 * Meh. Cutch 21:00, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Hey, for all we know, Palpatine could have been able to speak every language in the Galaxy. Just listing a handful isn't a good idea. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 22:28, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Good point. I'm satisfied. Cutch 22:30, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Game stats may not be the best source, Yrfeloran, but I can think of no other source for such information than that. I've just bought a home for me and Yvette, so I'll soon have regular access to all my Star Wars books again; I'll let you know what I find. Also, I would propose that, if we do decide to include such information (and why not?), we put it in the "Traits and Abilities" section rather than the main section. If there's something in a story that indicates specifically that, say, he's speaking or understanding Huttese in a scene, then we include it in the main section. Until then, the T&A section (insert joke here) will do nicely. Sound good? Erik Pflueger 01:51, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, have it as a subsection, I suppose. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 19:42, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Odds are that he has the Comprehend Speech ability. Either that or he spends *way* too much time learning them. LightWarden
 * Well, we don't know how many languages he could speak, but, as Supreme Chancellor of the Republic and Emperor of the Empire, he most likely could at least understand a lot of languages. Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 00:44, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Is Palpatine publicly known as Darth Sidious after 19 B.B.Y.?
I am asking this question because the Jedi, particularly Yoda knew that a Sith lord named Darth Sidious was ruling the CIS and that Count Dooku a.k.a. Darth Tyrannus was his apprentice. Seeing the obvious negative attitude of the Old Republic toward the CIS and Count Dooku, and potential treason charges being put on Palpatine for supporting the CIS, I doubt that he officially is recognized as Darth Sidious. If he is officially recognized as that, how did he explain his actions during the blockade of his homeworld Naboo, or the actions of his early apprentices, Maul or Tyrannus?
 * Well, he wasn't known as Darth Sidious after 19 BBY&mdash;he was known as Emperor Palpatine to all. Also, as of 19 BBY, only a handfull of people (some Jedi, Mas Amedda, and Sly Moore) knew that he was Darth Sidious and was the de facto leader of the CIS, as well as the Sith Master of Maul and Tyranus. Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 01:48, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Around and after the showdown with the Sith, only Yoda, Kenobi, Mace, Kit, Saesee, Agen, Anakin/Vader, Padme, Bail(Clearly stated in Dark Lord), Dooku, Captain Dyne and Roan Shryne (before their death) knew and completely understood that Palpatine = Darth Sidious. Mas Amedda & Sly Moore are implied in many products as also knew the truth. Darth Kevinmhk 07:06, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, after the Duel on Mustafar, only Vader, Kenobi, Yoda, Organa, Amedda, and Moore knew that Palpatine was Sidious. Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 12:42, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm pretty sure Sate Pestage knew as well. And if you go the Ep III novel, everyone learns he's a Sith (mentioned in the audio recordings he plays for the Senate), but no one knows and/or cares what that actually means. Thanos6 06:46, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
 * NO ONE CARES!!! That's like a South African saying "well, I guess Apartheid wasn't so bad." If the public discovered he was the Sith Lord that brought the galaxy into the Clone Wars, he would be out on his grey lightning-burned ass because his military would revolt against him. He must have at least drawn a comparison between himself as a "loyalist" Sith and Tyrannus as a "separatist" Sith.
 * But do they know that Tyranus was a Sith? Thanos6 03:20, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
 * "NO ONE CARES!!!". Well, maybe others do, so shut up. Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 11:20, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Palpy accused the Jedi of conspiracy against the Republic by plotting the Separatist movement. Palpy claimed that Dooku was still align with the Jedi and the Clone War was a Jedi plot. I believe the name "Tyranus" never got out to the Senate at all, only the Sith, high ranking CIS, the Fetts, high ranking Jedi and Republic High Command(which all were Palpy's pawns) heard the name "Tyranus". And when Jedi are considered as traitors, of course no one care what Mace claimed Palpy to be in the audio tape. Darth Kevinmhk 15:58, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
 * However, not all considered the Jedi traitors. However, I doubt the public was allowed access to the audio recording. Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 19:52, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Didn't he play the audio for the Senate? Thanos6 20:56, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
 * It's made clear that not many people knew he was a Sith. The moffs in Betrayal are the only ones mentioned as knowing so, and they had been working with Palpatine since before he had even become chancellor. Also in Truce at Bakura the Imperial governor mocks Palpatine for ever having trusted a Sith lord, which makes it pretty obvious that he didn't know Palpatine was one too. Kuralyov 19:57, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Okay, I'm going to try to make a list of people who knew Palpatine was Darth Sidious as of 19 BBY (after the Mustafar duel): Vader, Kenobi, Yoda, Organa, Amedda, Moore, Pestage, presumably some in the Imperial Inner Circle, the Moffs from Betrayal, and Ferus Olin. Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 20:02, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Uh, Thanos6, please don't post in the middle of a discussion. And if he did, that's still not really the public. Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 22:17, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I think Bobby Fett finds out as well in one of those young readers books, which seems like a really stupid idea to me. Kuralyov 22:21, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
 * You mean the Boba Fett series? I don't think so. I read the series, but it only seems that Fett finds out that Palpatine knew Tyranus was Dooku. I don't think Palpatine's other identity is revealed. Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 22:23, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Jango Fett and Boba Fett knew for sure that Tyranus = Dooku, but both of them have not heard the name Sidious ever. However, consider how smart and resourceful the Fetts are, they can probably deduce that Palpy knew about the Force. In the Imperial Era, we should not forget Thrawn, Nial, Royal Guards, Emperor's Hands, Prophets, Dark Jedi, Byss officiers, etc knew that Palpy knew the Force and its dark side. (Though seem none in the list knew he is a Sith) Darth Kevinmhk 03:10, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, that's the thing, how many people knew he was a Sith as of 4 ABY, now? Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 11:15, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
 * For knowing Palpy exactly as a Sith in 4 ABY.. Well, I can only confirm Vader, Pestage, Ben, Yoda (plus Jinn, if his mind still exists in the Force and not yet move to the next phase). I haven't read Outbound Flight yet, but I heard Thrawn cut a deal with Sidious. Given his status as Imperial High Command, I guess he could himself deduce that Sid=Palpy, right? And Boba might guess, too. Anyway, is there any sign that Luke knew Palpy = Sith? Darth Kevinmhk 11:36, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, as far as living people as of 4 ABY, it's Vader, Pestage, Yoda, Thrawn (possibly), and Luke (possibly). Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 19:07, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Did the Rebel Alliance ever say Palpatine was Sidious? It would be instrumental in their campaign against the Emperor to declare him of being the mastermind of the Clone Wars?

First Name?
Is there ANYTHING ANYWHERE that could possibly tell his first name? I really hate knowing only half of a Star Wars character's name. From the all-powerful Darth Tercero 22:54, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
 * No, otherwise it would be in the article. Plus, we don't even know if "Palpatine" was really his last name. Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 23:08, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Defeat of Yoda
Isn't the part of this page about his abilities a contradiction of the Yoda article in which it says the duel between them ended in a stalemate because this article states that Palpatine defeated Yoda, which he did NOT. So it is a possiblity that Mace defeated Palpatine with skill not luck. Annonymous Supporter "Your arrogance blinds you Master Yoda, now you will experience the full power of the Dark Side." - Emperor Palpatine "If so powerful, why leave." - Yoda "Failed have I." "Do not underestimate the powers of the Emperor." Yoda lost because Palpatine has better footing and quick thinking, in the Senate fight. Yoda was too slow for Palpatine, when Yoda threw that Senate pod, though it does give Palpatine the "Ah S**t!" expression when he has to jump out of the way and find Yoda.
 * Sweet Buddha, not again... Cutch 23:09, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Palpatine defeated Yoda by forcing him to flee. And Mace did not defeated Palpatine. Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 23:40, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Umm.. the duel between Yoda & Palpatine was possibly a stalemate when they were struggling on the pod. But after both of them were knocked down, Yoda lost - due to lack of energy to continue the fight and being outnumbered by approaching clones. So Palpatine still defeat Yoda and forced him to retreat plus exile. In Mace's case, regardless of all the argument & debates, Mace still lost - even if he truly outsparred Sidious. Even if he truly outsparred Palp fair and square, one can say Mace merely gained the upperhand for some time in the fight. Palpatine is the victor of the battle. In both case, Palpatine was the final victor of the entire battle, regardless of his performance in certain particular time period of the battles. Darth Kevinmhk 04:11, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
 * You know, when you 're the smart sneaky guy with all the resources, the dark side, the hidden agenda and the master plan, you always win eventually. Well, until the final film that is. --Master Starkeiller 20:36, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Let's look what Yoda and Palpatine say before the fight, after and what Yoda says in Return of the Jedi
 * They both gained upperhand in different time periods during the fight. Yoda's: Surprisingly knocked Sidious across the room; outsparred Sidious on Chancellor's Podium (stated in Script + young reader); surprisingly countered pods throwing to the now-too-arrogant Sith; able to contend the lightning for some time. Sidious': knock Yoda across office; quick enough to blast Yoda away after Yoda disarm him (script + youngreader); throw pods at Yoda (before Yoda countered it); disarmed Yoda; and finally the advantage of better footing. Darth Kevinmhk 16:06, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Nial Declann
Hi there. I'm a new user so I hope this isn't out of place. Anyway, I noticed a recent edit saying that Grand Admiral Nial Declann, not Palpatine, was responsible for the Battle Meditation during the Battle of Endor. I had a look at the Declaan page and it seems to back that up, with Declann being dark-side sensitive. I haven't changed it as it might be one of those newer material overwriting the older cases. But I think this should be looked into. Smegatron 11:00, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't think that's correct. There was no source for it. Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 12:16, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
 * In Thrawn trilogy, Thrawn claimed that Palpatine used Battle Meditation during Endor. However the Who's Who article did mention that Declann can "telepathically meld the units under his command into a superior fighting force" through the dark side; and the same article mentioned him "...abandoned his efforts to coordinate the Imperial fleet and raced to the throne room." But whether Declann really applied Battle Med. during Endor is unclear. Darth Kevinmhk 18:28, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
 * When I read it, I thought he was in a position where he was sort of doing Vader's job ("... to coordinate the Imperial fleet..."). It doesn't sound like he was using Battle Meditation&mdash;if anyone, it was probably Palpatine. Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 18:30, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Actually, apart from Thrawn's (or other character's) own deduction in the story, is there another source stating Sidious used Battle Med. during Endor? Darth Kevinmhk 18:33, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I think so. I might have read it somewhere, but I don't remember where exactly. Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 18:34, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Has anyone actually noticed that the Imperials actually seem to start losing as Palpatine gets more distracted by the Luke/Vader duel? -- SFH 18:36, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Excellent point. While that's not exactly proof, that could show that Palpatine was using the Battle Meditation. Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 18:38, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
 * They could both be using Battle Meditation at the same time... --Master Starkeiller 20:30, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
 * That was my take on it, as well. jSarek 20:52, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, SFH's point could show that Palpatine was only using it. Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 21:50, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Or that Declann was less capable than the Sith Lord when it came to coordinating a fleet in an unexpected, completely chaotic brawl. jSarek 21:54, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
 * True... Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 23:07, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Plus the fact that Nial might be able to sense the conflict between the dark and light side in the throne room. He might be able to hear, through the Force, the anger of Luke and later the agony of Vader & Luke, and finally Sidious' own shock/surprise/anger/fear. Considered that Palpy, Luke & Vader are 3 of the most powerful Force users, their "scream" in the Force might create quite a disturbance which affect Nial's performance in coordinating the fleet with BM. And as works implied that Nial was extremely loyal to Palpy, some of his mind might be worrying Palpy's safety all along during the battle. Darth Kevinmhk 02:22, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Kinda long, huh? But in fact I personally believe that Palpy used BM during Endor instead of Nial; but yet I hope to see canonical proof apart from in-universe deductions by other characters. Darth Kevinmhk 06:33, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I vote both, myself. Thanos6 06:44, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
 * On the other hand, Palpy is far more powerful than Nial, if Palpy indeed used BM, would Nial's effort has no effect at all or even affect Palpy's BM in a bad way? I vote Palp. Darth Kevinmhk 06:48, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
 * It's possible it works like the later Jedi battle-meld; the more you get, the more powerful it becomes. And Palpatine wanted to make sure not one of the Rebels escaped. Thanos6 06:53, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
 * True, but as for now, we don't know who was really using the Battle Meditation. Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 11:08, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't see how we can interpret it other than they both were. Sources state that Palpy was.  Sources state that Declann was.  There's no source saying that it was impossible, or even unlikely, for both of them to be.  Therefore, barring further textual evidence to the contrary, we should assume they were both coordinating the fleet through the Force. jSarek 19:38, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
 * "Sources state that Declann was". What sources? Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 19:55, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
 * The Insider article, already quoted on this page. jSarek 20:26, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Just checking. Well, Palpatine and Declann were both using Battle Meditation. It's settled, I suppose. Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 21:45, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Wait, the Insider article I quote merely say he can meld the forces through the Force; and he for some time was coordinating the fleet during Endor. It did not really say Nial use BM to coordinate fleets during Endor --- It did not even say Nial's ability was really the classic Battle Meditation of the Jedi / Sith. Darth Kevinmhk 02:14, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Palpatine's black hair trim conflicts with red hair in Episode I
Has anyone else noticed that in Episode III, Palpatine has a rim of black hair near the base of his neck. In Episode I he has no trace of black hair. I first noticed the black hair just prior to the deformed Palpatine putting on his cloak, I thought it was because the hair was singed by the lightning, but then I noticed it earlier on in the movie. Was this a goof or is there an explanation?
 * Not necessarily. In Episode II, there's more blackish hair coming up about halfway. Upon closer inspection, it's actually gray, and probably a brownish-gray. It looks like Palpatine's (probably Ian's as well) hair color was fleeing towards the back as the white invaded.

Either way, I think red-brown is Ian McDiarmid's natural hair color. Or at least was.
 * Well, the image with Palpatine with red hair is sent before Episodes II and III, and I don't think there's any black hair in that image. So, either something happened to his hair between Episodes I and II or he dyed it. Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 10:56, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Did Palpatine have a lightsaber available in Return of the Jedi?
After seeing Episode III, I doubt that Palpatine was "unarmed" as he said he was. Is there any recent information that indicates that he was armed with a lightsaber or were is force powers so great that he had no need for one?
 * I would generally be surprised if Palpatine didn't have one somewhere in his robes, but no, there is no official information on whether he had a lightsaber with him at the time. -- SFH 04:18, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
 * No source has stated whether he got a lightsaber on DS2... but i too agree that he actually had one. (But that would make him stupid, coz once Vader grab him, he should use the blade to slice off Vader's arm - i observe that move can still perform, especially for a masterful swordsman like Plapy) Darth Kevinmhk 10:02, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Palpatine was probably too overconfident to have one with him while both Skywalkers were there, but I assume he had one in his quarters. Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 11:05, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Having a lightsaber in your belt would still make you "weaponless," in tge sense that you don't activate it and will be unable to defend yourself. I, too, think that Palpatine had one. - TopAce 11:08, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
 * The question is, however, where was it if he had it? Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 11:11, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Maybe it was in his sleeve. So when Vader lift him up, the hilt fall backward and physically not reachable by palms. Or maybe Palpy was so so so surprised by the betrayal of Vader that he knew nothing other than continue his blasts. Darth Kevinmhk 14:01, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Of course, now that I think about it, even if he did have a lightsaber with him, he might have wanted to die so that the Rebellion would seem victorious, and Palpatine would later come back and fool the entire Alliance. We have to remember that Sidious had a big plan before 19 BBY, so this could have been another one. Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 19:11, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
 * He's always the man with a plan, Jack, but the thing is, I know of no other plan that he had in mind other than 1.) convert Luke, 2.) make Luke kill Vader, 3.) go right on expanding his power, only with a new and more powerful apprentice, one with most of his flesh intact and not so Cajun-cooked.

It's not that he wanted to die for any reason, it's just - according to Dark Empire - he had the clone thing as a fallback. And it ain't necessarily the case that he expected to need that fallback. If he had, he would have brought a clone with him to the Death Star and, a few minutes after the old Palpatine was turned into chunky salsa at the bottom of the shaft, a young Palpatine - probably packing a saber - would have come in the throne room and - let's be honest, folks - he'd have pasted Luke. I mean, it's not like Luke had a prayer against Palpatine doing all those spinning moves, right? Now, if I find anything that tells me different, I'll let you all know, but I really don't see any benefit to his plans if he dies, even temporarily. In fact, all that does is cheese him off.

Now, as to whether he was packing a blade in ROTJ: my guess is, he wasn't too old to use one - his cane was just for show, not because he needed it, so he could have still busted some moves with a blade - so if he HAD one on his person, in his robes, he would have used it if he needed to. But did he need to? When it comes to Luke, he probably figured the purple lightning would've done the trick by itself, but when Vader grabbed him, he sure needed it then, and he's quick enough that he could have gotten to it - IF it was there. So it probably wasn't on his person. But I have a hard time thinking he didn't at least have one in his private quarters. There's no backup for my opinions, in the EU or anything else, it's just my feelings. And remember, source trumps feeling, always. Erik Pflueger 04:32, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Of course. Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 11:20, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

"...to create...life."
Did Palpatine really know how to cheat death? Lots of people have asked that question, but my current project–changing articles regarding the now-canonized Star Wars Tales comic Resurrection–has got me thinking about this whole issue. In the comic, Darth Maul is resurrected by the Prophets of the Dark Side. After defeating Maul, Darth Vader asks him how Maul's rebirth was possible. Palpatine replies cryptically, "There are ways that those who once died can live again" (or something to that affect, my comic is not with me). Now, this was written pre-RotS, but it makes one wonder: was the writer informed of the whole Plagueis plot thread? It would seem that way, as the comic also hints that Maul was resurrected at Palpatine's behest. So, could it be concluded that Palpatine really did know how to resurrect people, and that this comment in Resurrection was luring Vader on even further, keeping him dependent upon their relationship with the hope of someday reanimating Padme? Interesting thoughts. Cutch 03:00, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Good thoughts. My opinions: 1) This comic is written Pre-AOTC! 2) Consider Dark Empire Saga, Palpatine indeed could cheat death, but several sources hint that Palpy learn the cheat death during 19 years of Imperial rule, with Vader taking over many daily jobs so that Palpy could concentrate studying. 3) In Rise of Darth Vader, Palpy confess he didnt know how to cheat death yet. 4) About whether Palpy & Plagueis could create life, sources often contradict each other. I was under the impression that Vader The Ultimate Guide & NEC * Vader databank strongly hint that Plagueis create Anakin, while Plapy in Rise of Darth Vader claimed that the Force create Ani. 5) Palpy claim that mastering life means mastering death also, and vice versa. But this is just his claim, out of all the Force spirits none was known to be able to create life. Darth Kevinmhk 04:15, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Regarding #3: When does Resurrection take place? Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 13:10, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Around 0 BBY, i guess. As Vader hunting for Death Star plan. Darth Kevinmhk 13:46, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, by 0 BBY, maybe Palpatine found out how to bring back the dead. Or, perhaps what he did to Maul was similar to what he did to himself&mdash;clone the body and have the spirit enter it. After all, I don't think that was Maul's actual body. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 14:42, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I think that Palpatine knew how to cheat most forms of death in 19 B.B.Y. like old age, external wounds, but not a saber to the head or heart. That's why he survived the lightning reflecting at him. Even though Mace was not the chosen one, he was powerful, Palpatine had to keep the saber from hitting him, by using his dangerous force lightning, despite causing serious body deformations to himself that would kill an average being. So when people say he's "corpse gray" or "looks dead" that's because he would have died without his force capabilities. The only reason Palpatine says he will have to "find the secret" is to insure that Anakin is loyal.
 * Well, I suppose it's point of view for cheating death in a way. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 00:34, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I kinda disagree. See Form VII's article for details: Mace & Sidious both applied Form VII during the lightning struggle: Vaapad & Juyo. They form a superconducting loop, an infinite flow of energy. Sidious intensify his attack by his suffering. Combining the movie scene & novel, Mace died because 1) surprise by Ani; 2) just lost an arm - series injury; 3) cannot deflect lightning with 1 arm & no saber; 4) it seems the fall kill him, not the bolts. Darth Kevinmhk 02:56, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
 * "it seems the fall kill[s] him". Well, some Mace Windu fans disagree, but that's beside the point. ;) Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 11:12, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, at least we saw that Mace was still alive before being thrown out; and why Palpy throw him out in the first place? Certainly not because of getting rid of the body, as there were 3 more in his office, i guess he throw him out probably because it takes time to really blast Mace to the death. Darth Kevinmhk 11:54, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Perhaps Palpatine thought falling to his death (and possibly hitting an airspeeder&mdash;man, that would be funny) was a very painful and helpless death. Perhaps that's why Anakin did it to Palpatine, too. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 19:36, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
 * ...back on topic... Cutch 21:18, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Okay, that wasn't needed. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 21:28, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, it was. This doesn't need to turn into a Mace vs. Palpatine thread... there have been enough of those already. Cutch 22:55, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Actually, no, it wasn't needed, because this really wasn't turning into a Mace vs. Palpatine thread. We just happened to say some things regarding Windu's death. Still, you could have said more than "...back on topic...". Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 23:52, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Just a short one then: Palpy sure did his best to blast Vader, a guy more machine than man, still it takes very long for Vader to die, not to mention he speed it up a little bit by removing the helmet. Darth Kevinmhk 11:21, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
 * True. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 11:23, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Bear in mind that, whatever its current canon status, Resurrection was written as an Infinities piece, and so probably wasn't concerned with delving into Palpatine's reasons for reviving Maul in relation to the Saga. Besides, as a pre-AotC publication, the whole eternal life thing hadn't been established in the movies. Of course, Palpatine eventually learns how to transfer his soul into clone bodies - and may have used a technique like this to resurrect Maul - Kwenn 22:04, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
 * That's what I said. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 22:05, 12 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Talking to the newly "knighted" Vader, Sidious says "The power to cheat death is one which only one has achieved" or some such, and that together they could learn it, implying that at that time, he himself did not know. Who was this "one" who knew?  Duke Starhopper 05:23, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
 * If refer to G-canon only, the majority agrees that the "one" was referring Plagueis; a less popular theory is that Sidious knew Qui-Gon's existence & knowledge, and was actually refering to Jinn secretly. But with the novel of EP3, it clearly state that Sidious was refering to Plagueis. Darth Kevinmhk 05:38, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I thought we had already known that... Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 11:00, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
 * YOU might have, but I was drawing a blank. I figured it referred to Plagueis, but at the same time, he still died, so I didn't know for sure...  Duke Starhopper 17:38, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I meant to say something along the lines of "I thought that was already on the talk page". Maybe it's in an archive by now. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 23:50, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

May I translate this?

 * This article is really awesome! I was wondering if I could be allowed to translate it for "Lores del Sith", a Spanish webpage about Star Wars. Unfortunately, many Spanish-speaking fans are not fluent in English, some Spanish publishers have stopped publishing Star Wars stuff, and I thought of using this page to make an approach to them. "Lores del Sith" is of course a completely free page (no "Hyperspace" sections), I'll provide a hyperlink. Of course, if there is any problem on that, I would not publish a translation of this or any other article. tYvm. Skippy Farlstendoiro 09:45, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
 * http://www.loresdelsith.net

Palpy undermining Thrawn Campaign?

 * I read that Palpy undermined Thrawn campaign... I have never read that before, probably this is a new info from NEC? Anyway, I knew Palpy did not reveal his secret resurrection to Thrawn, but undermine the Thrawn campaign? What did Palpy really do to undermine Thrawn's effort? Darth Kevinmhk 03:56, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
 * It's strongly implied in the Dark Empire Sourcebook that he was responsible for the lack of warships that forced Thrawn to go look for the Katana fleet - too many of them were being withdrawn and secretly assembled at Byss. The ultimate clincher, as I'll be including, is this line from the DES (p. 37) "Still, no contender could ever be allowed to become too powerful. It was no accident when Thrawn fell. Palpatine never knew if Thrawn guessed that he was being used to divert attention from his own return."

My assumption, based on the DES, is that Palpatine did not actively work to bring Thrawn down - it's not like he made Rukh kill Thrawn, for instance - but he did deny things to Thrawn that could have helped him to win, and made Thrawn's job that much harder. The reason? It would be harder for Palpatine to regain the throne if Thrawn was already on it, with a proven track record of victories behind him. He was a cancer best removed early. But he had to do so in a way that did not reveal his own presence too early. This way was the best, it seems.

One has to remember that one function of the DES was to try to link into continuity two storylines that on the surface really didn't go together - the Thrawn books and the Dark Empire comics. If Thrawn lost in the books, why are things even worse in the comics? If Thrawn was so trusted by Palps, why didn't Palps help Thrawn when it would have done the most good? It had to be answered in a way that didn't take away from Thrawn's skill as a baddie, but still let everyone know that Palpatine was still the GREATEST baddie. Erik Pflueger 04:48, 12 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Ya, I know whatever Palpy did was due to retcron, but still it was quite hard to believe: I bet Thrawn knew well that the power hungry Imperial warlords are not some loyal good guy who would aid an alien Grand Admiral with their hearts. So i presume Thrawn would spend some of his intelligence resources on monitoring warlords who didnt join his campaign. With Thrawn's military mastermind (Palpy was a puppet master / conspirator / masterful planner, but in terms of pure military affairs I dont think he is Thrawn's match), I really doubt that he could not detect any hint of unusual concentration of military forces in the Deep Core & Byss. Anyway, Palpy was really stupid. Even if Thrawn claim the throne, a galaxy gun / Eclipse superlaser could get rid of him. Or Palpy could sneak into Thrawn's location and kill him or whatever. After all he is a Dark Lord of the Sith... Darth Kevinmhk 07:13, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I believe that Palpatine did have something to do in Thrawn's fall, but I'm not sure what exactly Palpatine did. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 10:59, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I think one of the main lessons of Palpatine's life, Kev, is that, even if you are a Dark Lord of the Sith, even if you're the most powerful Sith ever to breathe air, even if you have every superweapon toy you could want and all the armies of an Empire at your command, YOU CAN STILL FAIL. Big time. Just being a Sith isn't enough. As for the ships going to Byss, the DES says it happened (p. 36), but doesn't say anything about whether Thrawn learned about it. The New Republic sure didn't. If Thrawn did, then maybe, as Palpatine speculated, he did guess he was being used. But if no official source outright says it, all we can say is "maybe," "possibly," and the like. By the way, I agree that, in terms of pure military strategy, yes, Thrawn beats Palpatine. But Palps was able to harness this strategist to his will. Tell me, what's the stronger power? Erik Pflueger 12:12, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I always wonder what if Thrawn was a powerful Force-sensitive... Anyway, I dont think Palpy has the understanding of "everyone can fall". In the holding office, no matter how neglectable his injury was, he still suffered a powerful Force push which could be avoided if not for his arrogance; in the Senate Arena, I very much believe that his arrogance made Yoda possible to counter his Pod throwing - we can see that while Yoda was working hard, Palpy just enjoy his evil laugh; and of course there is the defeat at Endor, even though death could not claim him. Well, maybe Plapy became smarter(in his own mind) after his first death then. Sigh, this news make me very sad... I would be heart broken if Thrawn knew nothing about being used. Darth Kevinmhk 12:59, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
 * "I dont think Palpy has the understanding of 'everyone can fall'." He never did, Kevin. It's not the lesson he took from his life that's at issue: it's what we're supposed to learn from it. And you nailed it right: It's Palpatine's hubris, his utter sense of exaggerated self-confidence (didn't Luke just nail it? "Your overconfidence is your weakness.") that brought about his downfall. And being the best Sith ever, with all the power ever, didn't save him. He was still a loser. Did he learn better after Endor? As you speculated, he may have thought he had, but nothing really shows that he did. He kept making variations on the same mistake at Da Soocha and Onderon, and was a loser. Again.

As far as Thrawn goes, I'm sorry to break your heart (I mean that), but there's nothing to say that he did know he was being used. There's no passage that ever went into his head to show what he was thinking, of course, but he sure never said to Pellaeon "I think someone's screwing with my campaign," and Pellaeon was his trusted executive officer (the real reason, of course, is that when T. Zahn wrote the Thrawn books, he didn't know T. Veitch was bringing Palpatine back for the DE comics, and it fell to M. Horne, when writing the Dark Empire Sourcebook, to try to super-glue them together). So, Thrawn was a great strategist, one of the finest (and he didn't need to be Force-sensitive to be really interesting, if you asked me) but he was as fallible as anyone else, and as Leia proved by secretly turning the Noghri against him, Thrawn could be caught unawares and slapped upside the head, just like anyone else. So as good as he was, he too was a loser. Erik Pflueger 16:56, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Anyone can make mistakes. That's basically it. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 21:59, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I need three paragraphs to make a point. Jack does it in two sentences! Maybe everyone's right... maybe I do use too many words... ;) Erik Pflueger 01:25, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Hey, thanks to the fact that you might use too many words, Palpatine is the longest article on Wookieepedia. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 01:27, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, I'm proud of that. And now that I've got all my books again, you ain't seen nothing yet. ;). We're gonna have a lot of fun here, you and I. Erik Pflueger 01:29, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I look forward to it. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 01:31, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
 * As far as I see, the critical mistake which really bring down Thrawn was Rukh - Thrawn suspect something is wrong with his kind, he halt all their assignment, but he still had Rukh hanging around. This is the critical error, which cost his life. If Rukh was not around, Thrawn may even turn the tide of his last battle, or at least a very orderly retreat to minimize loses and strike again soon after. But I suspect Thrawn shares some of Palpy's thought: Death is inevitable for everyone, so he prepared his clone. A cold military mastermind like Thrawn should understand "everyone is expendable" & "war can kill anyone at any place at anytime". He just could not know death would be so soon. Darth Kevinmhk 02:41, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Now, I might be making up some things here, but I've been thinks about this: Thrawn begins his campaign before Palpatine re-emerges. Could Thrawn have been instructed by Palpatine to do so? And then, like many other of Palpatine's loyal servants, he kills Thrawn in the form of Rukh. That way, the New Republic seems victorious, and then Palpatine strikes back. But, if Palpatine truly had the power to enter a person's body, could he have left his clone body for a moment or two and enter Rukh's body to kill Thrawn himself? Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 12:59, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
 * It could also explain Rukh's death. Although Royal Guards are great warriors, Noghri is nothing less. If Palpy's spirit left Rukh after killing Thrawn, Rukh's upcoming combat performace would sure be compromised. Darth Kevinmhk 14:57, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
 * So, would you consider my theory a good one or not? Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 15:08, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I've actually been working on a big post about this for TFN. I'll give you the link when I get it done. Kuralyov 15:12, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Really? I'd like to see it. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 15:15, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, Jack, Palpatine clearly didn't know about Thrawn's campaign in advance, and according to the Dark Empire Sourcebook (p. 37), he was sad that Thrawn made such a move. If he instructed Thrawn to do it, why would he have been saddened by it? Palpatine did, however, use Thrawn for the very reason you imagine Palps would have instructed him to do so: distract the New Republic from his own imminent return. As for jumping in and out of his own clone body at will, my analysis of the comics implies that he can, and so, theoretically, yes, he could have jumped into Rukh just long anough to off Thrawn, and then split. But why would he, when Bilbringi was half a galaxy away from Byss, and he had many servants with which to do the job instead? In any case, Rukh sure didn't do it for Palpatine; he did it to avenge the manipulation of his people by Thrawn, which Leia revealed to him. So Rukh was working Palpatine's will, but probably not because Palpatine told him to. Erik Pflueger 16:49, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
 * ... and thus, my theory goes right down the drain. Oh well. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 17:07, 13 May 2006 (UTC)