Wookieepedia:Good article nominations/Zelka Forn


 * ''The following discussion is preserved as an archive of a good article nomination that was successful. Please do not modify it.

Zelka Forn

 * Nominated by: -- Darth tom Imperial Emblem.svg (Imperial Intelligence)  15:54, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Nomination comments: Doctor? Doctor Who?

(4 ACs/4 Users/8 Total)
Support
 * 1) Master JonathanJedi Council Chambers 03:46, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
 * 2) Seems mostly fine now. SoresuMakashi ( Everything I tell you is a lie  the truth  ) 08:08, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
 * 3)  IFYLOFD  ( You will pay the price for your lack of vision! ) 17:33, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
 * 4) Good job.--Jedi Kasra (talk) 14:30, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
 * 5)  Cavalier One FarStar Logo.jpg( Squadron channel ) 10:24, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
 * 6) LordDeathRay  (My Sith Holocron)
 * 7)  Chack Jadson  (Talk)  01:49, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
 * 8)  CC7567  (talk) 03:55, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Object
 * 1) From the Council Chambers:
 * 2) * "After the destruction of the Galactic Republic, the main galactic government of the time, warship Endar Spire, individuals brought in several Republic soldiers who had been seriously wounded in the battle." Huh? Either something's missing or there's extraneous words here, because this doesn't make sense.
 * 3) * "Rakghoul this, rakghoul that": Rakghoul is inconsistently capitalized. Most notably, the term "[R]akghoul serum" is used at least once each way. I seem to possibly remember that Rakghoul should be capitalized, but I'm not sure if that is true or if my crazy brain is making stuff up. Which is correct?
 * 4) *I did a copyedit for you. Remember that the Ref template is only used in the infobox&mdash;you had it in the body, too, which I fixed. Otherwise, it's well-written and easily understandable for someone totally unfamiliar with that era. Good job. Master JonathanJedi Council Chambers 04:47, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
 * 5) **Alright, done. -- Darth tom Imperial Emblem.svg (Imperial Intelligence)  19:34, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
 * 6) Soresu
 * 7) * Benevolent is POV. Please remove.
 * 8) * Linking. Make sure everything is linked once in the intro and the body.
 * 9) * You begin too many sentences with Forn. Try using "he" instead.
 * 10) * Try not to use "grieved" twice.
 * 11) * After the destruction of the warship Endar Spire. Why and by whom was the Spire destroyed? Also, you haven't established where this event happened.
 * 12) * Despite the Sith government, the government that followed the Sith ideology, having an occupation of Taris, which could have seen him arrested and possibly shot, Forn agreed to heal the soldiers. He put a few of the soldiers in kolto tanks, healing medical tanks, in a back room of his facility. this doesn't flow very well. May I suggest something like Despite the fact that Taris was occupied by the Sith, which could have seen him arrested and possibly shot, Forn agreed to heal the soldiers, putting them in kolto tanks in a back room of his facility.
 * 13) * In the intro, you say that Revan killed a patrol to obtain the serum, but in the body, you say he found a corpse. Which is correct?
 * 14) * How did Revan discover the soldiers if they were in a back room? IIRC, he convinced Forn to show him the soldiers. you should probably add that some of them had already died.
 * 15) * Bts expansion. You need to add info about his appearance in KotOR as an NPC, his entry in the CSWE, whether it is possible to finish the game without doing the quest, and how he reacts if you give the serum to someone else.
 * 16) * The bts is too trivia-ish at the moment.
 * 17) * Is it actually essential to the plot that you meet Zelka? Can you actually finish the game without going into the medical facility? If so, then it would be unconfirmed as to whether Revan met him, and an extra bts note would be required. SoresuMakashi ( Everything I tell you is a lie  the truth  ) 10:59, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
 * 18) **Fixed, although no, Revan looked in the back room. I don't recall any sort of way for Zelka to agree to show him. -- Darth tom Imperial Emblem.svg (Imperial Intelligence)  16:47, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
 * 19) Soresu's second look
 * 20) * There are some previous objections you haven't taken care of. In future, put a message after each objection, to alert the objector to the fact that they are all done, and so that if there are any issues, they can continue the discussion. In this case, to keep it organised, I'll strike all the old ones and reiterate any that are still not addressed.
 * 21) * You begin too many sentences with Forn. Try using "he" instead.
 * 22) **Fixed. -- Darth tom Imperial Emblem.svg (Imperial Intelligence)  16:37, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
 * 23) * How did Revan discover the soldiers if they were in a back room? IIRC, he convinced Forn to show him the soldiers. you should probably add that some of them had already died.
 * 24) **I don't recall any sort of way for Zelka to agree to show him.
 * 25) ***I'm pretty sure that you can persuade Forn into believing that you are a friend of the Republic. He then opens the door. The other way is to bash through the door of course. Instead of just saying he discovered them, you need to elaborate on how. One of these outcomes will have to be expanded upon in the body, while the other will have to go to the bts.
 * 26) ****Yep. -- Darth tom Imperial Emblem.svg (Imperial Intelligence)  16:37, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
 * 27) * After Revan discovers the soldiers, he and Forn have a short converstion, the details of which should be added into the article.
 * 28) * Bts expansion. You need to add info about his appearance in KotOR as an NPC, his entry in the CSWE, whether it is possible to finish the game without doing the quest, and how he reacts if you give the serum to someone else.
 * 29) **You haven't added anything about the CSWE entry or his reaction of you give the serum to someone else.
 * 30) ***Okay. -- Darth tom Imperial Emblem.svg (Imperial Intelligence)  16:37, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
 * 31) * Is it actually essential to the plot that you meet Zelka? Can you actually finish the game without going into the medical facility? If so, then it would be unconfirmed as to whether Revan met him, and an extra bts note would be required.
 * 32) **That was added in before hand; oddly, however, the article includes content however isn't showing anything beneath the first paragraph of the BtS. I'll talk to staff about that. -- Darth tom Imperial Emblem.svg (Imperial Intelligence)  16:37, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
 * 33) * The bts is too trivia-ish at the moment.
 * 34) ** I didn't mean for you to delete that info, I was merely saying that it looked a bunch of facts in a list. The info should be restored and integrated into larger, more orgainsed paragraphs.
 * 35) ***Not deleted. Same problem. -- Darth tom Imperial Emblem.svg (Imperial Intelligence)  16:37, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
 * 36) * This page currently is not categorised. SoresuMakashi ( Everything I tell you is a lie  the truth  ) 23:02, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
 * 37) **It is categorized, but the categories are in the section not showing. By the time you're reading this, they should be fixed. -- Darth tom Imperial Emblem.svg (Imperial Intelligence)  16:37, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
 * 38) *Hm. Odd. Seems fine now. Alright, done. -- Darth tom Imperial Emblem.svg (Imperial Intelligence)  16:38, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
 * 39) **I'll vote as soon as an AC review comes in. SoresuMakashi ( Everything I tell you is a lie  the truth  ) 08:12, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
 * 40) Graestan the Merciless:
 * 41) * Last names after first mention, please.
 * 42) **What do you mean? -- Darth tom Imperial Emblem.svg (Imperial Intelligence)  17:18, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
 * 43) ***The first time you mention an individual, use their full name. From that point onwards, use their last name only. Using first names is seen as too informal for our encyclopedia. --Eyrezer 04:13, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
 * 44) **Alright, solely referred to as "Forn" throughout. -- Darth tom Imperial Emblem.svg (Imperial Intelligence)  10:25, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
 * 45) * I'm pretty sure things like "the South" when referring to the Upper City can be dismissed as game mechanics.
 * 46) **Addressed. -- Darth tom Imperial Emblem.svg (Imperial Intelligence)  17:18, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
 * 47) * "amnesiac Jedi Knight" doesn't quite cut it when referring to Revan. At the time, he was pretty much nothing in terms of being a Force user; I'd almost prefer that his Force sensitivity is left completely out.
 * 48) **Mhm. -- Darth tom Imperial Emblem.svg (Imperial Intelligence)  17:18, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
 * 49) * "presumably killed" is speculation. Only say what is known.
 * 50) **Yep. -- Darth tom Imperial Emblem.svg (Imperial Intelligence)  17:18, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
 * 51) * Taris has a "main city?" I thought Taris was a city.
 * 52) **Sorted. -- Darth tom Imperial Emblem.svg <span title="(Imperial Intelligence)" style="color:Black">(Imperial Intelligence)  17:18, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
 * 53) * Again, something like "no known family members" is out-of-universe and speculation.
 * 54) **Removed. -- Darth tom Imperial Emblem.svg <span title="(Imperial Intelligence)" style="color:Black">(Imperial Intelligence)  17:18, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
 * 55) * Linking needs to be more thorough.
 * 56) **Hm. Could you point out generally where, please? -- Darth tom Imperial Emblem.svg <span title="(Imperial Intelligence)" style="color:Black">(Imperial Intelligence)  17:18, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
 * 57) * Rakghoul disease needs context in the bio.
 * 58) **Done. -- Darth tom Imperial Emblem.svg <span title="(Imperial Intelligence)" style="color:Black">(Imperial Intelligence)  17:18, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
 * 59) * Second paragraph of the bio needs to be broken up; it's a mishmash of not-yet-converged storylines.
 * 60) **Yep. -- Darth tom Imperial Emblem.svg <span title="(Imperial Intelligence)" style="color:Black">(Imperial Intelligence)  17:18, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
 * 61) * How Shan was on Taris should be provided.
 * 62) **Provided. -- Darth tom Imperial Emblem.svg <span title="(Imperial Intelligence)" style="color:Black">(Imperial Intelligence)  17:18, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
 * 63) * "Which option Revan took was unknown, as neither results in a change of alignment. The nature of the conversation afterwards, unless Revan threatened Zelka, was such that it did not change the plot nor the character's alignment, therefore it's undetermined if Revan ever discovered the soldiers." – This is all pretty unnecessary. You can sum it up by stating that later sources which canonized the light-side path don't mention Forn or the medical facility.
 * 64) **Yep. -- Darth tom Imperial Emblem.svg <span title="(Imperial Intelligence)" style="color:Black">(Imperial Intelligence)  17:18, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
 * 65) * What exactly is meant by "one thousand and fifteen hundred credits?"
 * 66) **Whoops, addressed. -- Darth tom Imperial Emblem.svg <span title="(Imperial Intelligence)" style="color:Black">(Imperial Intelligence)  17:18, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
 * 67) * Graestan ( Talk ) 17:14, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * 68) Bumrushin' the Show with IFYLOFD:
 * 69) * City of Taris? Do you mean the planet?
 * 70) **Fixed. -- Darth tom Imperial Emblem.svg <span title="(Imperial Intelligence)" style="color:Black">(Imperial Intelligence)  07:29, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
 * 71) * Sith government? Was it really a government? Better wording could be used here.
 * 72) **Fixed. -- Darth tom Imperial Emblem.svg <span title="(Imperial Intelligence)" style="color:Black">(Imperial Intelligence)  07:29, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
 * 73) * Give more information on the rakghoul disease in the bio.
 * 74) **Fixed. -- Darth tom Imperial Emblem.svg <span title="(Imperial Intelligence)" style="color:Black">(Imperial Intelligence)  07:29, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
 * 75) * Give more info on Revan and the circumstances of his amnesia.
 * 76) **Fixed. -- Darth tom Imperial Emblem.svg <span title="(Imperial Intelligence)" style="color:Black">(Imperial Intelligence)  07:29, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
 * 77) * Quote for the P&T?
 * 78) **Fixed. -- Darth tom Imperial Emblem.svg <span title="(Imperial Intelligence)" style="color:Black">(Imperial Intelligence)  10:25, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
 * 79) * IFYLOFD  ( You will pay the price for your lack of vision! ) 00:43, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
 * 80) Attack of the Clone
 * 81) * "In his standing and position as a doctor": redundant; choose one or the other.
 * 82) **Fixed. -- Darth tom Imperial Emblem.svg <span title="(Imperial Intelligence)" style="color:Black">(Imperial Intelligence)  07:29, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
 * 83) * "Forn would not refuse help to anyone, regardless of their homeworld, species, political affiliation, personality, or even if he hated them on a personal level": the last one stands out with the lack of a noun; please reword.
 * 84) **Fixed. -- Darth tom Imperial Emblem.svg <span title="(Imperial Intelligence)" style="color:Black">(Imperial Intelligence)  07:29, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
 * 85) * "medically help or assist": I reworded it to this, but "help" and "assist" are redundant, and "medically" also makes the wording awkward.
 * 86) **Fixed. -- Darth tom Imperial Emblem.svg <span title="(Imperial Intelligence)" style="color:Black">(Imperial Intelligence)  07:29, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
 * 87) * "and individuals brought in several Republic soldiers": unclear; what were the individuals' affiliation?
 * 88) **Fixed. -- Darth tom Imperial Emblem.svg <span title="(Imperial Intelligence)" style="color:Black">(Imperial Intelligence)  07:29, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
 * 89) * "even with the possibility of being arrested or even shot": unclear as to who he would be punished by, and the wording is a bit awkward as well.
 * 90) **Fixed. -- Darth tom Imperial Emblem.svg <span title="(Imperial Intelligence)" style="color:Black">(Imperial Intelligence)  07:29, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
 * 91) * Awkward wording that Forn was upset about the plague; try to word to something clearer.
 * 92) **Fixed. -- Darth tom Imperial Emblem.svg <span title="(Imperial Intelligence)" style="color:Black">(Imperial Intelligence)  07:29, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
 * 93) * "Revan arrived at Forn's facility and convinced him to show them the Republic soldiers, by declaring their loyalty to the Republic." Revan convinced Forn to show who the soldiers?
 * 94) **Fixed. -- Darth tom Imperial Emblem.svg <span title="(Imperial Intelligence)" style="color:Black">(Imperial Intelligence)  07:29, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
 * 95) * What information did Revan agree not to disclose?
 * 96) **Fixed. -- Darth tom Imperial Emblem.svg <span title="(Imperial Intelligence)" style="color:Black">(Imperial Intelligence)  07:29, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
 * 97) * "Although Forn was originally fearful that Revan would betray him, Revan proved him wrong." Sounds strange never mentioning this before; try to move it up. If it happens here, please make it clearer.
 * 98) **Fixed. -- Darth tom Imperial Emblem.svg <span title="(Imperial Intelligence)" style="color:Black">(Imperial Intelligence)  07:29, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
 * 99) * Why was Revan's alliance with the Republic a problem for Forn and/or his decision?
 * 100) **Fixed. -- Darth tom Imperial Emblem.svg <span title="(Imperial Intelligence)" style="color:Black">(Imperial Intelligence)  07:29, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
 * 101) ***Please check this again. Do you meant, "Allied with the Sith as he was, Revan was in favor of Forn’s choice."? Forn's choice was in favor of the Republic, and this wording makes it sound like Revan was allied with the Sith. Please clear this up.  CC7567  (talk) 07:39, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
 * 102) * "Revan refused, however, believing Forn needed them more than he and his companions did." Please replace "them" with something more specific.
 * 103) **Fixed. -- Darth tom Imperial Emblem.svg <span title="(Imperial Intelligence)" style="color:Black">(Imperial Intelligence)  07:29, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
 * 104) * "even if they were an off-worlder, alien, or even if he hated them": same issue with the different elements not matching; please try to reword.
 * 105) **Fixed. -- Darth tom Imperial Emblem.svg <span title="(Imperial Intelligence)" style="color:Black">(Imperial Intelligence)  07:29, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
 * 106) * "Forn considered Revan's spirit very noble": builds too much off of each other using "spirit".
 * 107) **Fixed. -- Darth tom Imperial Emblem.svg <span title="(Imperial Intelligence)" style="color:Black">(Imperial Intelligence)  07:29, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
 * 108) * "for its work on making a Rakghoul serum before it was taken by the Sith": awkward wording.
 * 109) **Fixed. -- Darth tom Imperial Emblem.svg <span title="(Imperial Intelligence)" style="color:Black">(Imperial Intelligence)  07:29, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
 * 110) * "the light side choices are those chosen canonically": do you mean that "the light side choices are canonical"?
 * 111) **Fixed. -- Darth tom Imperial Emblem.svg <span title="(Imperial Intelligence)" style="color:Black">(Imperial Intelligence)  07:29, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
 * 112) * "Although canon dictates that the most light side choices would have to be taken": bit unclear; please check and/or clarify.
 * 113) **Fixed. -- Darth tom Imperial Emblem.svg <span title="(Imperial Intelligence)" style="color:Black">(Imperial Intelligence)  07:29, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
 * 114) * Are dark side points bad? It sounds like it from the use of "however"; please check.
 * 115) **Fixed. -- Darth tom Imperial Emblem.svg <span title="(Imperial Intelligence)" style="color:Black">(Imperial Intelligence)  07:29, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
 * 116) * CC7567  (talk) 18:42, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
 * 117) A little expansion on how Revan got Forn to show him the Republic soldiers would be appreciated. Wasn't there several dialogue options, or the option to bypass the door locks? -  Cavalier One FarStar Logo.jpg( Squadron channel ) 14:45, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
 * 118) *Addressed in IRC. - Cavalier One FarStar Logo.jpg( Squadron channel ) 10:24, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
 * 119) Toprawa:
 * 120) *Intro objections:
 * 121) ** This needs better and more context. For example, when did he arrive? What year? Perhaps why is he arriving? Doesn't have to go into any great detail, but don't assume the average reader automatically knows what's going on: "When the former Sith Lord Revan, in service to the Galactic Republic after having his memory erased, arrived on Taris" Toprawa and Ralltiir 04:39, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
 * 122) ***I rephrased this, simply because it seemed confusing. I didn't add the year however.  Chack Jadson  (Talk) 12:59, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
 * 123) ****He was not yet a Jedi at this point and there is no reason to say that he was a former Sith Lord because the person he was at this time was just a faceless soldier. I've fixed this in both the body and the intro. I've also added the year and contextified how he got onto the planet. NaruHina  Talk Anakinsolo.png 08:02, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
 * 124) Anyway, here's one thing I've got: "Despite an offer of a large deal of credits from the crime lord Davik Kang for the serum." However, in the body, it states that his assistant told Revan about Kang, rather than the crime lord actually offering him credits.  Chack Jadson  (Talk)  12:59, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
 * 125) *Fixed. NaruHina  Talk Anakinsolo.png 08:02, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
 * 126) Attack of the Clone II
 * 127) * "Despite an offer of a large deal of credits from Forn's own assistant if Revan donated the serum to the crime lord Davik Kang": I've read it over and over again, but the sentence flow just isn't working, and "donated" does not seem to be the right word choice. Please reword this.
 * 128) **Fixed. NaruHina  Talk Anakinsolo.png 06:21, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
 * 129) * "no matter who they were": inconsistent with the intro. Clarify or reword it.
 * 130) **Fixed.
 * 131) * In the first paragraph of the bio, the third sentence on is incoherent and includes a lot of extra detail that is directly unrelated to Forn, and it's also unclear why Forn would face arrest for helping the wounded. Please shorten and reword it.
 * 132) **Fixed.
 * 133) * "This caused a great deal of trouble to some on Taris, due to the fact that only the Sith had an antidote for the people who suffered from it. He was particularly grieved for the Outcasts, people who lived in the Undercity who had been&mdash;or whose ancestors had been&mdash;cast out of the Upper City." Both sentences are unclear, and it's unspecified whom the second sentence is referring to.
 * 134) **Fixed.
 * 135) * "Forn had heard that the Republic scientists were approaching a cure for the plague, before the Sith had overrun the Tarisian Military Base and kept the serum all for their patrols in the Undercity, in case they were infected." That's all very good, but what did this cause him to do? This is a cause, and it's missing the effect; I have no idea why this is even here.
 * 136) **Removed
 * 137) * "Revan arrived at Forn's facility and convinced him to show him the Republic soldiers": the pronouns are unspecific; I have no idea who you're referring to.
 * 138) **Fixed.
 * 139) * "From Forn, Revan learned about the serum. Gurney, Forn's assistant, drew Revan aside as he was leaving the facility": the first sentence has the same issue of lacking relevancy without clarification. Furthermore, why was Revan leaving the facility?
 * 140) **Fixed.
 * 141) * "His respect for the Republic was also evident by his willingness to hide and heal the injured Republic soldiers." If he helped anyone, I don't see why this would be any different or suggest his respect for the Republic. Please clarify.
 * 142) **Removed.
 * 143) * "The option to bash down the door, or bypass the locks, and discover the soldiers": this is extremely choppy; please replace the commas only where they are required. I haven't touched this because I'm unsure of what the meaning is.
 * 144) **Fixed. NaruHina  Talk Anakinsolo.png 21:56, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
 * 145) *While this nomination is finally moving again, my tolerance is very low with inactivity, as this has been idling for an extraneous amount of time. If nothing is done to satisfy these objections, I will be easily swayed to rejoin the removal vote.  CC7567  (talk) 20:45, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Comments


 * For obvious reasons, I'll withhold my vote until some feedback comes. -- Darth tom Imperial Emblem.svg <span title="(Imperial Intelligence)" style="color:Black">(Imperial Intelligence)  15:54, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
 * You're not meant to vote for your own noms. We got rid of that in the GA system revamp. SoresuMakashi ( Everything I tell you is a lie  the truth  ) 04:28, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I may have supported this nom but if CC's objections are not addressed promptly, I have no problems voting to remove.  Chack Jadson  (Talk) 01:50, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

Vote to remove nomination (AC only)
 * 1)  Only one unaddressed objection remaining, yes, but one that's been sitting here for over three weeks. This isn't getting a lot of activity, and unless there's something done soon, it needs to go.  CC7567  (talk) 02:35, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
 * 2) *My bad; miscounted the weeks. It's only been two, but I still think it needs to be addressed soon.  CC7567  (talk) 02:48, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
 * 3) **Noticing Floyd's unaddressed objection, I'm going to have to reinstate my vote. With so many current GANs, the tolerance for inactivity is becoming lower.  CC7567  (talk) 04:53, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
 * 4) *I apologize; I've only just noticed Floyd's outstanding objection. Unfortunately, I won't be able to address it until Sunday afternoon, as I won't even be on site until then. If you feel the need to remove the nom then I'm dissapointed but I understand. If you could, however, give me a little more time, seeing as I didn't realize, I'd appreciate it. :) -- Darth tom Imperial Emblem.svg <span title="(Imperial Intelligence)" style="color:Black">(Imperial Intelligence)  06:42, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
 * 5) I'm reinitiating this removal vote. The article has once more fallen idle with outstanding objections more than 3 weeks old. Nominator has shown no continuing initiative toward this nomination. Toprawa and Ralltiir 22:59, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
 * 6) Less that than the whole "this is going nowhere" notion.  Graestan ( Talk ) 00:46, 16 August 2009 (UTC)