Talk:Jedi Order/Legends

Luke Skywalker is the last member of the Old Jedi Order?...MTFBWUA. Starkiller1996 Adidas F50+ 11 Febraury, 2007; 23:32 (UTC) "Not the last of the old Jedi, Luke. The first of the new."

- Obi-Wan Kenobi to Luke Skywalker

Sith Council Sith Campaign 21:27, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

User: Mak Manto Yes, he would be. Yoda and Obi-Wan were members of the Old Order, and so, he was too. When he created the New Order, he wasn't anymore.

Appearances
What's up with the Appearances section? I know there was a whole lot more places this is talked about. -- Cato Neimoidia 22:20, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Notable members
To settle the problem with certain individuals deleted members of the New Jedi Order from the "Notable Members" area, we'll put it to a vote.

Include NJO in Notable Members
 * 1) See comments. - JMAS 20:48, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
 * 2) i agree with JMAS. AdmirableAckbar 20:51, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
 * 3) JMAS is correct. Greyman ( Paratus ) 21:27, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
 * 4) I agree. --Jedimca0 (Do or Do Not, There is No Try) 21:32, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
 * 5) Do. I nominated it, so that's final. Jediknight19bby 23:32, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
 * 6) *What do you mean "that's final", the vote is not over yet. --Jedimca0 (Do or Do Not, There is No Try) 10:42, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
 * 7) Unit 8311 11:37, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

Do not include NJO in Notable Members
 * 1) No. Let this article focus on the old Jedi Order. -Fnlayson 21:41, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
 * 2) They're part of a totally seperate order. &#123;&#123;SUBST:User:Jasca Ducato/Sig}} 09:17, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
 * 3) This is specific to the pre 19 BBY order. There is a generic page at Jedi and a New Jedi Order specific one. QuentinGeorge 11:22, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

Comments
The Jedi Order is a not just referring to one set era of time. This article encompasses the Jedi Order as a whole. Nomi Sunrider, Voso-Siosk Baas both come from the OLD Jedi Order, one that allowed marriage and love. Yoda, Mace Windu, Aayla Secura all came from an era of the Jedi Order that forbid these things. Luke Skywalker founded the NEW Jedi Order that once again allowed them. They are ALL part of the Jedi Order as a whole. - JMAS 20:48, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Does this mean the history of the New Jedi Order (which I removed) needs to be put back in? --Jedimca0 (Do or Do Not, There is No Try) 21:32, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
 * The NJO can be sumarrized here if that's the way it will be done. And if so, the lead should not say "later known as the Old Jedi Order". -Fnlayson 21:41, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree. Since the NJO has it's own article, it should only be summarized here. - JMAS 21:45, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
 * So if its being summarised, we don't need a list of its members. &#123;&#123;SUBST:User:Jasca Ducato/Sig}} 09:17, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
 * We could list some of the most notable members, perhaps in the history section. And we're trying to make this a good article, so please, don't start an edit war. --Jedimca0 (Do or Do Not, There is No Try) 10:41, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
 * This is the article for the Old Jedi Order. We have a separate New Jedi Order article and a separate Jedi article. Please don't confuse them. QuentinGeorge 11:22, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
 * You're right, it is a bit confusing. Perhaps the article needs to be renamed "Old Jedi Order" to prevent confusion. --Jedimca0 (Do or Do Not, There is No Try) 13:57, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I was just going to say the same thing...if it's not going to cover the history of the whole Jedi Order, then maybe a page move a new name is needed? Just a thought.   Greyman ( Paratus ) 14:06, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
 * If the article gets renamed to "Old Jedi Order", then fine. But the "Jedi Order" should stand for the entire history of the Order from its inception to end (whenever that might be). - JMAS 14:58, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Exactly. Greyman ( Paratus ) 15:02, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I Do feel that there should be some sort of clear distinction between the NJO and the old jedi order; and seeing as there is an article for the NJO we should only briefly talk about the NJO in this article and primarily focus on the old jedi order. I believe that they should remain separate articles and this should be renamed the Old Jedi Order.  You Lose Talk to me! 21:09, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Maybe we should remove the whole silly "Notable members" section altogether. --Imperialles 21:16, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Don't remove it. So many users worked hard on it, if you deleted it, I'd undo your edit. I'd keep doing that as many times as it takes so that you can see these users want to keep it, NJO section or not. Jediknight19bby 14:52, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
 * i think it should be significantly shortened, to include only very notable members. Aayla Secura is not a notable jedi simply because she's featured in many comics/movies. She didn't even make it past knighthood. The notable members section should only include Grand Masters(e.g. Yoda) and extremely well known and powerful jedi (e.g. mace windu). The list shouldn't include jedi like Agen Kolar & Adi Gallia, as they weren't really that notable. AdmirableAckbar 15:27, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Nobody has removed anything and don't make treats. What you suggest could break the 3 revert rule. -Fnlayson 15:36, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
 * It is very difficult to determine notability, I think Aayla Secura is notable enough, others think she isn't. The New Jedi Order article has an even longer list of members, in that article it's called "Roster of the New Jedi Order". I think we should ad a similar section to this article this way we would not have to determine notability, and if we remove the list of members from this article we should remove it from the New Jedi Order article as well. I also think this article needs to be renamed to Old Jedi Order to prevent confusion because this discussion started with the removal of the New Jedi Order members from the list. --Jedimca0 (Do or Do Not, There is No Try) 16:13, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
 * that would be a good idea, but it would have to be divided into appropriate sections. Grand Masters (e.g Yoda) Council Memebers (e.g. Mace Windu) Jedi Masters (e.g. Qui Gon) Notable Jedi Knight (e.g. Aayla Secura). But no further. If we list every Jedi knight and padawan in the jedi order, it will be way too long. AdmirableAckbar 16:40, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Agreed, listing every mentioned Jedi would make it too long. The New Jedi Order Article has those sections too, so we should use them here as well. --Jedimca0 (Do or Do Not, There is No Try) 16:55, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
 * It's done. Grand Masters, Council Members, and Masters in alphabetical order. Jediknight19bby 17:46, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes I can see that, but where are the Knights? and I thought this wasn't going to be a "Notable members" section but something more like this. --Jedimca0 (Do or Do Not, There is No Try) 17:54, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't think there should be that many. Jediknight19bby 18:01, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
 * If You're referring to the New Jedi Order list, than I agree, that would be too long, but that does not mean you should remove Jedi from this list. What I meant was that I thought that the sub section should be named like that of like AdmirableAckbar said, Grand Masters (e.g Yoda) Council Memebers (e.g. Mace Windu) Jedi Masters (e.g. Qui Gon) Notable Jedi Knight (e.g. Aayla Secura). There were several Jedi Knights that were notable enough to be mentioned, we should not shorten this list, I think it was good the way it was, perhaps it could even be expanded a bit, not too much though, just a little bit. It just needed to be divided into sections. --Jedimca0 (Do or Do Not, There is No Try) 18:11, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
 * i added a couple of Jedi Masters to the list. I'm still not sure whether we should list them all, but certainly the most recognised. I also think the section would gain by having Pre-Ruusan and Post-Ruusan jedi masters, councilors etc... AdmirableAckbar 18:17, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
 * That's a good idea. I also think that the Jedi that were on the list should remain on the list, some were removed for an unexplained reason when the new sections were added. --Jedimca0 (Do or Do Not, There is No Try) 18:32, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
 * so, anyone object to having all grand masters, councilors, masters in their respective timelines (post/pre-ruusan) and only notable jedi knights (like Secura or Offee)? AdmirableAckbar 18:43, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I sure don't object. Go right ahead. I'm the one who created the notable members section and nominated this for a good article, so I think that, if there aren't any objections, one vote from me has the right to get it through. Jediknight19bby 18:52, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
 * okay, could everyone please refrain from editing the article for a few minutes AdmirableAckbar 18:56, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't object, <but I think we shouldn't divide the grand masters using more separate sections, there are only two grand masters in the list, simply noting it should be enough. As for the other sections, I suggest splitting them up using bolded text and not more sub sections.
 * i rearranged them into appropriate sections. I'm not an expert on pre-ruusan jedi so that area may be lacking. sorry to the above user, i hadn't seen your objection when i started editing. your idea makes sense so i'll change it if no-one else does. AdmirableAckbar 19:12, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Forget about what I said earlier, your version is better, altough the separate Grand Master sections should be changed. --Jedimca0 (Do or Do Not, There is No Try) 19:14, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
 * oops, i already changed it. you're welcome to revert it if you wish AdmirableAckbar 19:18, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
 * no, sorry i didn't. I thought you'd crossed the whole thing. It now looks fairly complete to me. Maybe some notable knights pre-ruusan. AdmirableAckbar 19:23, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
 * You're right, it does look good, my compliments. Unfortunately pre-ruusan isn't my area of expertise, I'll continue working on the history section tomorrow and perhaps I'll find a few, but I'm not sure. --Jedimca0 (Do or Do Not, There is No Try) 19:27, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Old Jedi Order
If this article is supposed to cover the Jedi Order as a whole, I call a vote for the creation of an Old Jedi Order page to accompany the NJO page. After 6 votes for yes or 4 votes for no, the case will be closed to whichever desicion the majority has made. Jediknight19bby 19:30, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Create an OJO page

Move this arcticle to Old Jedi Order
 * Creating yet another Jedi Order article will make things even more confusing, and since this article only covers the Old Jedi Order anyway it may be better to simply move this page to a better title and make a disambiguation page under the current title (Jedi Order) this way we would make things less confusing in stead of more confusing. --Jedimca0 (Do or Do Not, There is No Try) 19:53, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
 * 1) theres no point having an article which just repeats what is on other articles. page called OJO contains what is on this article current. NJO page contains NJO info. JO page can be a disambiguation page, directing user to OJO or NJO. AdmirableAckbar 19:59, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
 * 2) Jediknight19bby 20:15, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
 * 3) Move page to "Jedi Order (pre-purge)" or something similar since "Old Jedi Order" was not its title.  -Fnlayson 21:12, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
 * 4) * That's a good idea, but perhaps something like "Jedi Order (Pre-Galactic Empire)" would be better, since there was more than one purge. --Jedimca0 (Do or Do Not, There is No Try) 21:23, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Leave it as it is
 * 1) It was never known IU as the Old Jedi Order, as far as I know. &#123;&#123;SUBST:User:Jasca Ducato/Sig}} 20:23, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
 * 2) Unit 8311 20:29, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
 * 3) Just because you have an article on New Coke doesn't mean you need to move Coca-Cola to "Old Coke." jSarek 09:38, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
 * 4) Per jSarek. Green Tentacle (Talk) 09:46, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
 * 5) Per them all. It was only called the Jedi Order, and adding something in parentheses would make it more awkward and confusing, not less. - Lord Hydronium 09:56, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
 * 6) Yup. Greyman ( Paratus ) 11:05, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
 * 7) *I would have to agree, a move may not be necessary, but we have to make this less confusing, a lot of people think this is an article about the entire Jedi Order "old" and New, but it isn't, this article focuses on the "old" Jedi order. Perhaps just a disambig page or something else that will direct people to the New Jedi Order article is a better idea, I'm open to any suggestions. --Jedimca0 (Do or Do Not, There is No Try) 10:00, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
 * 8) **What about a simple "youmay" tag at the top of the page? jSarek 10:03, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
 * 9) ***That's not such a bad idea, in fact, it would be much better than a move. --Jedimca0 (Do or Do Not, There is No Try) 10:07, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
 * 10) Per Jasca and jsarek.  Gonk  ( Gonk! ) 11:28, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
 * 11) I agree, a move was not such a good idea, a simple youmay tag will achieve much more than a move will. --Jedimca0 (Do or Do Not, There is No Try) 13:29, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
 * 12) this is a far better idea than moving it. AdmirableAckbar 14:03, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Comments

 * If an Old Jedi Order page is created, this one (Jedi Order, whole thing), will need to be more of an overview article with links to the OJO, NJO, etc pages. The Notable Jedi list(s) would then be a better fit on the OJO and NJO page, not here, imo. -Fnlayson 19:48, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I think we should either have one article that covers both the Old and the New Jedi Order, or we should have two articles, one for each Jedi Order. Having three articles will make things more confusing than it already is. And this article already focuses on the Old Jedi Order, so why not simply move it to a more appropriate title. --Jedimca0 (Do or Do Not, There is No Try) 19:57, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
 * what should happen(IMHO): OJO & NJO have a page each. Jedi Order can be a disambig page. AdmirableAckbar 20:01, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Agreed, forgot to mention that in my earlier comment. With Jedi Order as a disambig page we would make things less confusing and the two articles (OJO and NJO) would be easier to find. --Jedimca0 (Do or Do Not, There is No Try) 20:07, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
 * After Greyman and JMAS cast their votes, we can end this- nobody really except the 5 of us have anything to do with the Jedi Order page. Jediknight19bby 20:17, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Then again, I wanted it the 6-yes and 4-no way because if it was 6-3 in favor of having OJO and NJO, the 6 would be twice as much as the 3. Since there are only 5 whose votes can really be collected, I'll end it now. Jediknight19bby 20:24, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
 * everyone's votes still count. Wait until their is a majority vote in one direction AdmirableAckbar 20:31, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
 * If no one objects (and if the vote still favors a move) I'll be moving this page to "Jedi Order (Pre-Galactic Empire)" later today or tomorrow, if anyone knows a better of more appropriate name, feel free to let me know. --Jedimca0 (Do or Do Not, There is No Try) 08:57, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I've heard some good arguments and I think a simple Youmay tag will be much better than a move. --Jedimca0 (Do or Do Not, There is No Try) 13:29, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Idea
I've an idea. I'm not even sure if i want to do this mhyself, but i just thought I'd put it out there. In the list of notable jedi, we could include each jedi's death. like so:

Count Dooku

Qui-Gon Jinn

as i already said, I don't really care, but I thought i'd share my idea. I'll happily do it if other users are happy for me to. AdmirableAckbar 20:27, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
 * actually, giving it further thought I think this is a good idea. We could include a little bit of detail about each Jedi. e.g.

Kit Fisto

what does everyone think? AdmirableAckbar 20:39, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Not a bad idea. Do it. Jediknight19bby 21:01, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
 * i did all the Post-Ruusan Jedi Councilors. i'll do the rest tomorrow if i get a chance. AdmirableAckbar 21:11, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I added some. Jediknight19bby 21:28, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
 * it is nearly complete. I left a few i wasn't sure about blank, so if someone else could fill them in, i'd be grateful. AdmirableAckbar 21:55, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
 * If you're not sure, you could also just check the articles about those Jedi, the information you're looking can most likely be found there. --Jedimca0 (Do or Do Not, There is No Try) 22:01, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Sourcing
I think the roster section with the whole thing about species and deaths is a great way to source more. Ackbar, JMAS, see if you have time to source Tuesday or Wednesday, because I'll be sourcing, too. Jediknight19bby 03:46, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I think the roster section needs too be referenced, and I also think all the extra information needs to be checked (just check the articles about the Jedi in question and see if our info is correct) because I found a small mistake yesterday and it appears someone else found one too earlier today. So before you source something, please check if the information is correct, just incase we made a mistake. I'll be working on the History sections, just expanding them a bit more and, if the vote favors it, I'll be moving this article to a more appropriate name later today or tomorrow. So don't be surprised to find a disambig page at the current location. Just thought I'd inform you guys about what I'll be doing. This article is really improving and perhaps we might even get GA approval for it, good job everyone, and keep up the good work. --Jedimca0 (Do or Do Not, There is No Try) 08:51, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
 * should we source both species and death, or just one? AdmirableAckbar 13:45, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I think it we can assume that the species and death are in the same source, so instead of mentioning the first source that identified their species and mentioning the source for their death, just mention the one for their death. If someone objects to this we can always source the species later. if you're not sure just source both of them (does that make sense? If it doesn’t simply ignore my comment) --Jedimca0 (Do or Do Not, There is No Try) 14:59, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Just things like about their deaths, being a grand master, something that's either from the EU or a sourcebook. Jediknight19bby 15:15, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
 * ok. i'll be able to do some today, but i'm going away tomorrow and my only access to internet is through internet cafe, so someone else may have to finish them.AdmirableAckbar 15:17, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
 * is there any real point referencing these? They're likely already referenced on their pages, so it seems a waste of time and effort to me. Also, Jediknight19bby, when you see this tag:

please refrain from removing it 'till the person who put it there is done. I was about to go and reference every post-ruusan jedi master/council member, and then I saw in recent changes you'd gone ahead and removed it.AdmirableAckbar 17:20, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Things To Do
Okay, guys. I've run out of things to do. Well-written, lengthy enough, non-POV, and the pictures and the article are completely sourced. I'm now open to suggestions. Nothing crazy like re-writing it, though. Jediknight19bby 14:53, 28 June 2007 (UTC)