Talk:Victory I-class Star Destroyer

Conjectural Turbolasers
"The Victory-class presumably also had a few heavy turbolaser turrets." Similar to the HIMS debate, why would we include this in the article? If there is a long standing discussion of the probability of VSDs bearing them, perhaps it should be included in Behind the Scenes, or if it's discussed at length on websites, linked to fron External Links. --SparqMan 15:45, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Because WEG also consistently ignored the HTL turrets on the ISDs in their stats. Even the Venator has HTLs, and it's just a carrier. It wouldn't make any sense at all for the VSD to not have them. -Vermilion 00:27, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

I should point out that recent sources have gone back to the Victory I-class Star Destroyer having 80 concussion missile launchers, not simply twenty launchers with 4 missiles each; the New Essential Chronology supports the former case, and the fact that the Providence-class Carrier/Destroyer has 102 proton torpedo launchers makes the VSD having 80 launchers not that unreasonable. --TIEDefenderPilot 00:56, 30 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * Not nesesarily (I spelt that wrong, but I'm tired... lol): The Venator and ISDs were built by KDY, whereas the VSD was by Rendili. Plus I'm pretty sure the Victory came before the Venator. --Beeurd 00:43, 12 May 2005 (UTC)
 * WEG consistently left out the primary armerment of ships in favor of the secondary one. From their POV it makes sense, a hit from one of big HTLs is gonna annihilate the party.  But the weapons still need to be there.  -- Lowkey
 * Visible turrets are not necessarily the sine qua non of heavy weapons. More serious is the question of concussion missiles - as I've noted in the Behind the scenes section, we seem to have a snafu here, if SotG really says four tubes: so, does it? --McEwok 14:01, 16 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * It says 20 tbes, 4 missiles a piece -- Lowkey
 * I agree. If the recent sources support the 80 launchers, then that should be it. Admiral J. Nebulax 20:01, 30 Nov 2005 (UTC)

Victor Project
Please explain to me how what really comes down to an immature temper tantrum about what a book says is necessary? A wiki entry is suppossed to be from a neutral POV, how is bashing what LFL has decided to retcon in anyway shape or form neutral? --Lowkey
 * It doesn't matter; it's information that should be there. Admiral J. Nebulax 17:06, 10 Dec 2005 (UTC)
 * Why? How is the fact that LFL made a decision that you don't like to change things relevent to the Victory class?  I don't like the fact that Galaxies is canon, you don't see me messing up articles bashing it.  What justification is there for including it?  -- Lowkey
 * Simple: It's information. Admiral J. Nebulax 17:13, 10 Dec 2005 (UTC)
 * The fact that you don't like it does not make it relevant informaion. --Lowkey
 * I never said I didn't like it. Admiral J. Nebulax 17:33, 10 Dec 2005 (UTC)
 * Then why are you so quick to revert information bashing LFL and defedning its inclusion despite being fron a nonNPOV? --Lowkey
 * You know, I don't really care about this anymore. It's out of the article anyway, despite the fact that it provides some information. Admiral J. Nebulax 17:43, 10 Dec 2005 (UTC)
 * I'm looking at the anonymous edits that brought this diatribe into the article, and they all go back to McEwok. Of course I'm not surprised, but I do wonder how much longer the admins are going to put up with that kind of childish behaviour. And why, oh why, doesn't he pick on other "fan-writers" who got a lucky break. How about them Wizards of the Coast boys, huh? Or Pablo Hidalgo and his WEG team of wonder? Why is it anything that might have had something to do with Curtis Saxton? Saxton had nothing to do with this book, but still, he's the one getting picked on. The only author getting this kind of treatment here, apparently. VT-16 15:59, 13 Dec 2005 (UTC)
 * That's pretty sad if he's the only one. Admiral J. Nebulax 21:56, 13 Dec 2005 (UTC)

"Victor" comes from the Latin vincere, victum meaning "to conquer". Vincere means to win, not to conquer. --Dark Scipio 08:00, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
 * They're still basically synonyms. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 15:06, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Battlefront II
I'm not sure why my edit was taken out, but during the space battles of the game Battlefront II, if one checks his or her sensors, one will note that it records the Victory-class vessels as "frigates" and not as "Star Destroyers." I commented on this in the "Behind the Scenes" subsection because it, to me, seemed relevant. Why it was deleted, I do not know.--SOCL 21:25, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
 * See Victory II-class frigate. They're two completely different warships. Admiral J. Nebulax 22:30, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
 * See, this is the point where I apologize and also the point where I ask that in the future such a thing be pointed out to me rather than action simply being taken.--SOCL 04:53, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, if you look at the history, plenty of people had added this kind of thing in before, and I get tired of writing the same thing in the "Summary" box. Admiral J. Nebulax 21:34, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Victory III
Would the upgraded ships manufactured after the Vong war be considered a Victory III-class? Generally upgrading the design and adding massive tractor beams seem to me like it's sufficient to define a new class. 68.47.234.131 21:28, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
 * No. If you add a massive asteroid-tug tractor beam to a ship, that does not make it a new class. Upgrading some other things doesn't make it a new class, either. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 21:42, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
 * The alterations are made during construction, not as refits. If significant alterations to a design's armament and such doesn't constitute a new class, then the Endurance-class carriers also aren't actually a new class. They're just modified Nebula-class Star Destroyers. Besides, what is the Victory II, but a Victory I with upgrades (less substantial than those of the new "Victory Is" seen post Vong war, at that)? 68.47.234.131 03:21, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
 * No matter what, a source is needed. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 13:01, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Any speculation or mention of it (since it sounds substantial enough) could go in the Behind the scenes section. :) VT-16 16:53, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't like that idea, though. I don't think we should go around mentioning a possible "Victory III-class Star Destroyer" if we don't know if it exists. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 20:20, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
 * It does at least deserve a BTS mention for being such an extensive modification as to warrant being a possibly new sub-class, even if it was never mentioned as such in-universe. VT-16 21:21, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Fine, but someone's going to go make a page on that, because someone usually does. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 22:38, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Victory-class in ANH?
I discovered this interesting card from the SW:CCG ANH set. Having discarded it as non-canon in the past, the recent retcons highlighted (Sariss in ANH, Tectors in ROTJ) made me wonder what the canon status of Victory ships in ANH are.  The card shows the Devastator model from that film, but identifies it as a Victory SD. Now, with the exhibition model of the Devastator showing refitted parts that made the ISD-Is in ESB and ROTJ look more like ISD-IIs, this image could easily be explained as showing an extensively refitted Victory SD. The SDs over Tatooine were never really expanded on, so maybe they could be retconned as Victorys? VT-16 09:52, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't think so. Devastator looks like the other ISD-Is in A New Hope; I think that's just a mistake on the part of WotC. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 12:10, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I wasn't saying the Devastator was a Victory ship, only that its model could have portrayed several classes in ANH, if this retcon is still accepted. I asked about it on the continuity-thread on the OS, so hopefully we'll have an answer soon. VT-16 13:20, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Oh. Now I get it. But still, if the model was used as a Victory, it would look different from the Victory Is and IIs. Of course, if the model was used as a Victory, it could be considered a Victory III... Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 15:19, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Of course, if it was a Victory III, there would probably be "Victory Vs" by the Yuuzhan Vong War. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 15:21, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeah, something like that, or Victory-I A or something, since it wouldn't be a new model in the same series, but an upgrade of an older design. VT-16 15:46, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
 * But that would make the Imperial II the "Imperial I A". Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 20:23, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
 * No, I said "upgrade", not "new model in the same series", which is what the ISD-II's were. But, then again, they might just not bother with it. ;P VT-16 21:25, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I know you said that, but weren't the ISD-IIs upgraded ISD-Is? Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 23:57, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
 * No, they were a new model in the Imperial-series, but some ISD-Is had a few refits done to be more like the ISD-IIs. VT-16 07:23, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Oops, that's what I was thinking of. Sorry. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 11:04, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

New Pic
The Victory II had hull hugging "fins" like the one pictured in both articles.--Jerry 00:23, 8 June 2006 (UTC) For those with a functioning scanner and either the Star Wars Sourcebook or the Imperial Sourcebook, I point you to page 35 of the SWSB, which has the original concept Imperial Star Destroyer art (mislabeled as an actual ISD) that was used for the Esdee Vic Mark I; and page 59 of the ISB, which has a profile view based on that pic (which was later misinterpreted as having fins, resulting in the design of the Vic Mark II). jSarek 08:51, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
 * It's good, but it's not a pic of a VicI, it's a VicII. I suggest it be moved to the VicII page.--Jerry 22:36, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Actually, it's a Victory I. Victory Is had those fins so they could enter atmospheres; the Victory IIs didn't. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 23:17, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Vic Ones had outward facing fins like this: http://moddb.com/images/cache/mods/55/5568/gallery/thumb_31059.jpg
 * Oh. I didn't realize that. My bad. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 00:23, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Is there any pictures of the Vic-I that isn't fanart? I remember seeing something in a video game, possibly. VT-16 07:42, 8 June 2006 (UTC) 07:42, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
 * There has to be some non-fanart pictures. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 12:10, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I know I've seen it somewhere, but haven't been able to find it online.--Jerry 21:22, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
 * But was the previous image a Victory I? Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 11:37, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
 * WHich one? The one I posted above? --Jerry 17:50, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
 * No, the one as the main image before this current one. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 19:57, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
 * That was a Victory II, the same picture was the main image for both the VicI and VicII, and still is for the VicII--Jerry 20:42, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Oh. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 20:43, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Seen it somewhere in a game or in a book? VT-16 20:50, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Game I think. Can't remember which one though--Jerry 22:18, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
 * It'd be nice to get one. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 00:04, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Agreed. It's just a matter of finding one.--Jerry 21:58, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Would it be possible to remove all of that extra stuff on the above image? Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 23:36, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
 * But it's fanmade... :S VT-16 08:27, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
 * None of the pictures in the article or shown in ISB match the fanart above, all of them have the fin-like structure, but they point toward one another, not away. VT-16 11:25, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Too bad. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 12:58, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Hmm, I see both VSD I and VSD II have been changed. There *ARE* definitely VSD's with those finlike structures - they're visible in the old The Essential Guide to Vehicles and Vessels and the X-wing line of games.  I'd heard that they were the VSD IIs to explain the visual discrepancy (the fins are apparently the result of misinterpreting the profile image in the ISB), but I don't recall if it was canonically stated anywhere. jSarek 13:47, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Hmm, indeed. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 14:00, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
 * There's no way to prove it, but I'm fairly certain the fins are maneuverable. In space it doesn't matter whether they're extended or contracted but in an atmosphere to move faster the VSD would tuck the wings in and when slowing down and doing maneuvering, the wings would extend.  It's pure conjecture but it makes sense to me while explaining the discrepancies between the wings being extended versus being collapsed.
 * That could be... Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 19:53, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
 * X-Wing Alliance's Victory Destoyer. http://digilander.libero.it/iuriflagg/fotos/accademia/altro/vsd2.jpg --Unregistered user.
 * Providing that it wasn't modified at all, we could probably use that. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 12:35, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Number of Victorys owned by the CSA.
Okay, let's hear the sources for 250 and 520. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) 22:59, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Han Solo and the Corporate Sector Sourcebook, p. 91: The Empire decided to remove 520 of these cruisers from the 27th Denarian Fleet to make room for the newer Imperial-class Star Destroyers. &mdash;Silly Dan (talk) 23:07, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Okay, thank you. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 23:12, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I was going to get around to mentioning that when I found my copy of that sourcebook. I've been the one changing it to 520. Admiral Wes Janson
 * Oh. Once again, my apologies. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 12:48, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't know about other sources, but The Essential Guide to Vehicles and Vessels states the number at being 250, not 520. Kuralyov 06:05, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Now I see why there was a problem. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 12:36, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Atmosphere

 * This question is kinda dumb but I don't get the whole one of the largest ships cpable of atmospheric operations. Does this mean that ISDs, SSDs, and Lucrehulks couldn't enter the atmosphere? If so, why? If they could, then this sentence should be removed. Thanks. Chack Jadson 12:55, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Larger warships were incapable of entering atmospheres, yes. Some might say that the reason is that they didn't have atmospheric manuevering fins, but Venators didn't have them, yet they could enter atmospheres. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 13:50, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Sorry for my ignorance but why couldn't they? Did they explode, or fail to respond/didn't function? The Second Battle of Coruscant took place in the atmosphere, so I guess that Lucrehulks, Recusants, and Munificents could function. Thanks. Chack Jadson 14:34, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
 * No, the Second Battle of Coruscant took place in space, not Coruscant's atmosphere. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 19:28, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I thought I read somewhere that the battle took place in the atmosphere, allowing for the fire and sunlight (although Star Wars really doesn't care about things like sound in space being wrong) but never mind. Anyway, back to my original question: is there a specific reason why some ships couldn't enter the atmosphere? Thanks. Chack Jadson 01:14, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure if there is. But, just to prove that the Second Battle of Coruscant took place in space, look at Invisible Hand's decent into Coruscant's atmosphere. The entire ship begins to burn up. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 03:12, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I remembered that right after I typed it. I have no clue what I was thinking. Anyway, thanks. Chack Jadson 16:16, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
 * No problem. If I find anything on why certain ships couldn't enter atmospheres, I'll let you know. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 16:19, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

EaW
Why is the Victory II-class Star Destroyer's picture from EaW in this article? It doesn't appear in the "Appearances" section here but does in the Victory-II's article. Now, I think it's been proven that the EaW model is the Victory-II.

I'm moving the image... if anyone has any objections tell me. Jorrel Fraajic 03:09, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, I think it's because we can't find an actual Victory I image. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 03:12, 5 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Oh, ok... do you want me to move it back? Or maybe put it in both, with a mention in the description thing to the Victory II? Jorrel Fraajic 03:18, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
 * No. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 03:20, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Ok then. Jorrel Fraajic 03:20, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Although we badly need an image for this article. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 03:21, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm looking for one now, but it seems all I can find is fanart... I think. I can't tell on one because of the stupid content blocker on my computer. Would someone mind looking for me? This is the link: stardestroyer.quickseek.com/ Jorrel Fraajic 03:24, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Sounds like a fanon site to me, but I could be wrong. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 03:29, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Image confusion.
The Victory-class in Empire at War is not referred to by a mark-I or II.

The Victory-I and Victory-II in X-Wing Alliance use the same model.

The Victory-I and Victory-II in Star Wars: Rebellion used the same model.

Starships of the Galaxy says both classes can enter atmosphere.

Visually speaking, they're effectively interchangeable. I doubt we'll find a picture that specifies whether it depicts a -I or a -II, so a pic from EaW is fine in the infobox or anywhere else. -- Darth Culator  (Talk)(TINC) 03:16, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, I deleted it, but, with that logic, I may put it back or have it reverted. Jorrel Fraajic 03:53, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Where was the Victory I or Victory II described as having hullplates that extended away from one another? People kept saying that was the difference between sub-classes, but I forget the source, if it ever existed. Either way, it seems the two have been treated as mostly structurally similar for so long now, it doesn't matter anymore, but it would be good as background material, or maybe a refit explanation? VT-16 10:34, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I think the Victory I had the outward-pointing fins. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 12:18, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
 * The only source I've seen with outward fins is X-Wing Alliance (and perhaps its predecessors, but I don't have them installed right now). XWA uses the same model for both the I and II. Literally the same, as in the same .OPT file. The only difference is the shield and hull points it assigns and the firing priority of the hardpoints. And I'm fairly certain the outward facing fins are the result of reading the side view in the Imperial Sourcebook wrong. -- Darth Culator  (Talk)(TINC) 12:49, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
 * So, is there any way we can find out which is which? Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 17:57, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, I guess short of asking the game directors, I guess there is no way to fully know... maybe use a guess? I mean, Victory Is were around towards the end of the Clone Wars, whereas the Victory II came later. That's why I figure the Victory II is the one in EaW, because they're later models. Maybe they use similar hulls? Jorrel Fraajic 23:01, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
 * The only difference I see is the fins. Perhaps we could use the sources to determine which is which. We could see which one appears the first, and see if it makes an image appearance in it. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 02:13, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
 * My whole point is that there are Vic-I's and Vic-II's with open fins, and Vic-I's and Vic-II's with closed fins. The model in Empire at War has closed fins, but EaW has names for VSDs that cover both VSD-I and VSD-II series. Crusader, Gallant, Hunter, Iron Fist - explicitly Mark I, Corrupter - explicitly Mark II, Dominator - Totally overhauled by ROTJ and could be either. (The evidence actually points to the EaW model being a Mark I, given that the names are all referred to in other media as Mark I or Mark-unspecified except for two.) Any VSD which is named in both EaW and the X-wing series will have been seen in both the open-fin and closed-fin versions. I think the open fins are a mistake, but we may have to explain them as a moving component or a yard retrofit. -- Darth Culator  (Talk)(TINC) 02:38, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I always thought Victory Is had open fins. I never knew that they could move. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 14:29, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
 * They may not be mobile, but there needs to be some explanation for ships that have appeared in both configurations. Hunter, Protector, and Stalwart have all been seen in the open-fin and closed-fin version. The simplest explanation is that the VSD-II is a VSD-I with different engines and a few turrets swapped out for other weapons, and thus they both look the same at any reasonable level of detail. -- Darth Culator  (Talk)(TINC) 17:30, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
 * But then wouldn't that make the Victory II just a retrofit, like how Victory IIs later on (Yuuzhan Vong War) got upgraded things, yet aren't called Victory IIIs? Does this mean that changing a few things about the ship makes it a new class? Jorrel Fraajic 17:50, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
 * From what I recall, isn't there superstructure between each fin in the closed versions? Can't just say they from that to a version where the fins turn upwards and with nothing in between, if it's the same ship. Unless those sections are detachable.
 * Does this mean that changing a few things about the ship makes it a new class?
 * No, it makes it either a subclass or a refit. VT-16 17:52, 23 November 2006 (UTC)