Talk:Palpatine/Archive3

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Senator/Supreme Chancellor/Emperor Palpatine.... Grrr!!!
Palpatine is NOT known as Senator/Supreme Chancellor/Emperor Palpatine. Why do you insist on doing this, Jack Nebulax? We simply refer to him as Emperor Palpatine. Especially since the first sentence already indicates that he was the Supreme Chancellor and the Emperor, and the article refers to him as a senator later.

Example: Grand Admiral Thrawn. Not Captain/Admiral/Grand Admiral Thrawn. Another example: President Bush. Not Governor/President Bush. etc etc. --Azizlight 12:20, 14 Aug 2005 (UTC)
 * I would prefer just "Palpatine", but of these two options, "Emperor Palpatine" is certainly better. - Sikon 12:37, 14 Aug 2005 (UTC)
 * Of course he's not known as "Senator/Supreme Chancellor/Emperor Palpatine". But those were his three titles, and he wasn't known as "Emperor Palpatine" when he was a Senator or Supreme Chancellor. That's why I keep putting those other titles in. It's the way it should be. Cmdr. J. Nebulax 13:55, 14 Aug 2005 (UTC)
 * Yes, but Emperor Palpatine was the highest "rank" he achieved, and that's what we go with here. --Imp 14:34, 14 Aug 2005 (UTC)
 * For Sith sake, someone's done it again --Azizlight 01:02, 17 Aug 2005 (UTC)
 * It's not me, that's for sure. I was the one that got rid of the "Senator/Chancellor" part the first time. Cmdr. J. Nebulax 12:13, 17 Aug 2005 (UTC)
 * Haha yeah that one wasn't directed at you Jack :-) Princess/Senator/Chief Of State Leia Skywalker Organa Solo? Anyone? ;-) --Azizlight 12:19, 17 Aug 2005 (UTC)
 * Glad to see that someone believes me. I'm trying to think of the last person was to edit the Palpatine page before I got rid of the Senator/Chancellor part. Cmdr. J. Nebulax 12:22, 17 Aug 2005 (UTC)
 * I agree with Azizlight. It should be just Emperor Palpatine. KFan II 15:47, 23 Aug 2005 (UTC)

Lord Darth Sidious... another fanboy wonkery?
Isn't the title Lord Darth Sidious a little redundant? I think there's really no need for it. Where do people ever refer to him as Lord Darth Sidious anyway? It's either Lord Sidious or Darth Sidious. Anyway, I thought Darth was short for Dark Lord of the Sith, in which case the title becomes Lord Dark Lord of the Sith Sidious. Just a thought... --Azizlight 02:26, 18 Aug 2005 (UTC)
 * We actually have no idea what Darth means. And while it is PRESUMED Darth is a shortened form of Dark Lord of the Sith, we don't know. And Darth Vader was often styled Lord Darth Vader. I say we make it either Lord Darth Sidious, or Darth Sidious, Dark Lord of the Sith. --User:SFH
 * Just looking through the New Essential Guide to Characters, and none of the Sith lords are ever referred to as Lord Darth Whatever. Most of the time they are just Darth Whatever. However the first mention of Vader is Darth Vader, Dark Lord of the Sith, which i think is more accurate than Lord Darth Vader. But if someone can prove me wrong with a source, then please do so. --Azizlight 02:57, 18 Aug 2005 (UTC)
 * They call Darth Vader "Lord Darth Vader" in the Essential Guide to Alien Species. KFan II 16:00, 23 Aug 2005 (UTC)
 * That "Darth" stands for "Dark Lord of the Sith" is a fan speculation. I agree, though, that "Lord Darth" is redundant. After all, the title Darth only precedes the names of Sith Lords. - Sikon 03:04, 18 Aug 2005 (UTC)
 * Cool, i didn't know that "Darth" = "Dark Lord of the Sith" was also a fanboy wonkery, so thanks :-) --Azizlight 03:27, 18 Aug 2005 (UTC)
 * KFanII is the one who keeps putting it in, purely based on an offhand reference to Darth Vader as Lord Darth Vader in Essential Guide to Alien Species. 'Course he doesn't seem to be able to explain why this applies to Palpatine, nor does is he willing to entertain the notion that this is a purely Imperial name for Vader, rather than a set-in-stone Sith title. QuentinGeorge 05:52, 18 Aug 2005 (UTC)
 * Regardless, don't put it in the paragraph, as it looks crap. :) QuentinGeorge 05:56, 18 Aug 2005 (UTC)
 * Finally, maybe KFanII will stop putting it in so I can stop taking it out. Plus, the majority of the time, Sith Lords are addressed as either "Darth (name)" or "Lord (name)", but barely ever "Lord Darth (name)". Cmdr. J. Nebulax 11:56, 18 Aug 2005 (UTC)
 * I doubt "Lord" is an Imperial Army designation, as only Darth Vader and Dark Side Adepts recieved the "Lord" thing (i.e. Lord Vader, Lord Hethrir, Blackhole had a "Lord" name too, I forget what it was) Its obviously a Sith title, as in "Dark Lord of the Sith". Lord Darth is not "Lord Dark Lord of the Sith", as we do not know that "Darth" means "Dark Lord of the Sith". KFan II 16:05, 23 Aug 2005 (UTC)

Edit war
I think this edit war with 194.30.198.* should be resolved. Should the (?) be put next to 84 BBY or not? Also, why did 194.30.198.81 replace "himself with Darth Maul" with a single "?"? - Sikon 13:25, 20 Aug 2005 (UTC) --194.30.198.48 23:53, 20 Aug 2005 (UTC)It seems I'm a troublemaker, huh? Yes, 84 IS reasonable, but we're not SURE about it. It is possible Palpatine was born looooooooooooooong before he wants people to think he was born. The character deserves this ambiguity, and the (?) displays the fact we're not sure about him. It isn't obvious he didn't learn the midi-chlorian tecknique, perhaps he actually created Anakin. Let's leave the ambiguity inherent to these events... The other line I remove to leave open the possibility Palpy was not a Sith in Dark Empire. Anakin Skywalker destroying the Sith and bringing Balance to the Force, remember? I don't SUPPORT he wasn't with removing the line. Not at all. I'm just leaving a window of opportunity for the possibility. I don't see the problem here. The changes are minor, why make an edit WAR? --194.30.198.48 00:16, 21 Aug 2005 (UTC)I DIDN'T say he wasn't. I just want this opportunity to be open, because I see a terrible contradiction here. Oh, and sorry about the "Himself and Darth Maul" removals, my bad... --194.30.198.48 00:45, 21 Aug 2005 (UTC)Exactly. Palpatine said it. That's why we can assume he knew the trick. Palpatine lies a lot, and surely he wouldn't admit that he knew it if he did. How else would he ensnare Anakin? Ambiguity once again. There's nothing certain about this character. And again, I repeat, I DON'T WANT TO SUPPORT PALPATINE WASN'T A SITH IN DARK EMPIRE. I just don't want a "He WAS a Sith" or a "He WASN'T a Sith" phrase. Ambiguity. Why don't we make it "Palpatine, the most evil motherf$#%^&* ever born was finally dead"? --194.30.198.48 01:07, 21 Aug 2005 (UTC)You don't listen to me. I just ask for some windows of opportunity to be left open and you say: "NO, THIS WAY!!!". We don't know about the age. Palpatine's age, sure, the fake facade's age, sure, but can we be certain it was the age of the guy behind the mask? No. No = (?). We don't know when he's lying or not. We know nothing about the guy. LET US NOT MAKE CONJECTURES. LET US LEAVE SOME AMBIGUITY. Oh, and in Empire's End, the ghosts don't treat Palpy a lot like a Sith. Okay about the height, though. --194.30.198.48 02:17, 21 Aug 2005 (UTC)SFH, yes, you understand what I am trying to do. Yes, some things can be taken as fact. Sidious is from Naboo. Fact. Okay. Sidious was born 84 B.B.Y.. It seems to be a fact. But is it? The R.o.t.S. Visual Dictionary says: "Always two they are; not only master and apprentice, but persona and true face. Did the T.P.M. Visual Dictionary that revealed Palpatine's age mention anything about a true face? No. It mentioned the age of the persona. While both could have the same age, it isn't necessarily so. We assume they did, but since we aren't certain, there's a questionmark. And everybody should be happy. I don't see the problem with the questionmark... It could be 84 B.B.Y., it could be something else. I think Palpatine deserves this kind of ambiguity around his birthdate. And I do see it from your point of view. I have already made some compromises. About the line then: For the tenth time: I DON'T SUPPORT THAT PALPATINE RENOUNCED THE SITH. I MERELY DON'T RULE OUT THE POSSIBILITY. That way, I can say he is a Sith in Dark Empire while X can say he isn't. If 99% of people believe he is, then this way we allow X to believe he wasn't without saying, "HE WAS" or, "HE WASN'T". I really don't see your problem. I understand the way you react. "Palpatine renounced the Sith? Nonsense!" But I never said he renounced the Sith. I JUST DIDN'T COMPLETELY RULE OUT THE POSSIBILITY FOR THE SAKE OF ONE LINE THAT EXISTS MERELY FOR EFFECT AND CAN BE CHANGED AS TO HAVING THE SAME EFFECT WITHOUT COMPLETELY RULING OUT THE POSSIBILITY. If we both made a compromise and changed the line somehow? "Emperor Palpatine, the most powerful practitioner of the Dark Side was finally dead"? "Palpatine, the most evil user of the Force was finally dead"? --Master Starkeiller 02:43, 21 Aug 2005 (UTC)Well, he defeated Yoda by lifting pods like feathers and was so evil that he was rotting alive, but okay... How about, "Emperor Palpatine, perhaps the most powerful practitioner of the Dark Side was finally dead"? Oh, and sorry for not logging in... --Master Starkeiller 03:03, 21 Aug 2005 (UTC)But he is! And I agree that he should be considered a Sith Lord for now. But because in D.E. he does not act much or is treated much like a Sith Lord since when it was written, he was not supposed to be, I think we should remove the line. I repeat: Just in case. Just not to rule the possibility out. Not that he is not a Sith. JUST IN CASE. --Master Starkeiller 13:55, 21 Aug 2005 (UTC)Guys, that's what the character is like. He's a big questionmark, and in the case of his age, he definitely deserves the questionmark. We know Sidious is a Human from Naboo. That's what the Databank says. We don't know ho old he really is though. Perhaps we'll learn in the future that he's a cosmic potato from another Universe, but for now, he deserves the questionmark right next to his age. --Master Starkeiller 23:44, 23 Aug 2005 (UTC)Yes, let's all make some compromises... Let's just talk, people. Civilized discussion... Now that the article is locked it might be easier.
 * According to Lucas, Palpatine during the prequels is no older the McDiarmand. So I suppose that 84 is accurate. But I'm also in an edit war with this user. I keep trying to place the line "Darth Sidious, the greatest Dark Lord of the Sith, was finally dead" at the end of the Palpatine reborn section, but the user keeps removing it, saying it contradicts the whole point of the entire saga. I think the fact Palpatine survived may do that more than a quote, but I think the line is good for effect. Any opinions? User:SFH
 * Put in the line. I'm annoyed (even though there is no emotion...) that we have to discuss virtually every change here. Always there's someone unsatisfied. - Sikon 16:22, 20 Aug 2005 (UTC)
 * Sorry if I ticked you off. However, I think the safest thing with 84 is make it definite. I'm confident enough that he was born then. It's obvious Palpatine never learned Plagueis control over midi-chlorians, so 84 is reasonable. User:SFH
 * Palpatine was not a Sith in Dark Empire? Why wouldn't he be? People like that don't just renounce the title of Dark Lord of the Sith. Anakin did bring balance to the Force, and it didn't necessarily mean killing Palpatine, but just ending his reign over the galaxy. I think SFH's "Darth Sidious, the greatest Dark Lord of the Sith, was finally dead" line should remain. --Azizlight 00:03, 21 Aug 2005 (UTC)
 * Sith Lords do not simply abdicate. And Palpatine DIDN'T know the midi-chlorian trick. He said as much in Episode III, saying Plagueis took it to his grave, and he told Anakin that they would discover the secret together. It also says that on the Plagueis article. User:SFH
 * The lie that ensared Anakin was that he DID know it. Once he had him, he admitted that he didn't know the secret. Seriously. You *did* watch, ROTS, didn't you? And it's Palpatine's EXISTENCE in Dark Empire that would constitute a continuity error, not whether or not he's Dark Lord of the Sith. QuentinGeorge 00:48, 21 Aug 2005 (UTC)
 * Anon User. Please stop your constant edits. One: The height is correct - see Palpatine's entry in the databank and the NEGTC. The Sidious databank is a diversion so as to throw people off the scent pre ROTS to Sidious identity. Two: The "?"s add nothing to the article. The date is the current correct age for Palpatine. Three: The line "Darth Sidious, Dark Lord of the Sith was finally dead" was fine and contradicts with nothing in Dark Empire, considering Palpatine goes to Korriban, where the dead Sith Lords acknowledge him as one of their number. DON'T revert this article again. QuentinGeorge 00:58, 21 Aug 2005 (UTC)
 * I think I get what your trying to do. You are trying to preserve the mystic about Palpatine. That's perfectly understandable. In many ways, it's admirable. But there are somethings that just have to be taken as fact. He never renounced his title as Dark Lord of the Sith. He never learned the midi-chlorian trick, or he simply would have used that instead of the clones to keep himself alive. I'm aware Dark Empire was written years before the prequels came out, but the Expanded universe is just as canonical as the movies, though the movies do take precedence. So please, I can see it from your view. Can't you see it from ours? Otherwise, we are all gonna be spending our time reverting each others edits. User:SFH
 * This should end. The consensus is that we don't need the "?" after the dates, and that we keep the line. Any opinions on Palpatine that are different should be in "Behind the Scenes", which they already are. QuentinGeorge 01:36, 21 Aug 2005 (UTC)
 * Palpatine wasn't the most powerful, nor was he the most evil. - Sikon 02:34, 21 Aug 2005
 * Ah, don't worry about the logging in thing. But I think that until we see evidence that he did renounce the the title of Dark Lord of the Sith, he should still be considered as such. Also, I'm comfortable calling Palpatine the most powerful user of the Dark Side. User:SFH
 * Use "perhaps" if you want, or maybe "one of the most powerful", just not "most powerful" because that's POV. - Sikon 03:33, 21 Aug 2005 (UTC)
 * This is getting ridiculous. Do we want a whole article that says, "Palpatine was a Sith Lord. OR MAYBE HE WASN'T!!!!! He was born on Naboo.... OR MAYBE HE WASN'T!!!!! It is getting incredibly tiresome. QuentinGeorge 04:05, 21 Aug 2005 (UTC)
 * I agree with QuentinGeorge. "Palpatine's species should be marked with a (?), because even though he was said to be Human, he may have actually been some sort of cosmic potato, since there is no source that specifically says that he wasn't one." --Azizlight 09:29, 21 Aug 2005 (UTC)
 * Starkeiller and I currently have a dialogue going on to try to find some compromises. If you have some suggestions, ideas, or inspirations you recieved during a meditation on the Force, please leave your suggestions at our respective talk pages. All idea's are welcome. Tirads and threats will not recieve an answer. User:SFH

Sidious was the most powerful of the NEW Sith?
To quote The Dark Side Sourcebook from Wizards of the Coast, 2001:
 * When the Sith finally emerged from a thousand years of watching and waiting, they numbered - in accordance with the tradition set down by Darth Bane - only two. The most powerful of these was Darth Sidious...

I'm a little confused by this sentence. I think it means that Sidious was the most powerful Sith in the 1000 years since Darth Bane. But I think the sentence is poorly worded, because technically it is saying that Sidious was the most powerful Sith out of those that revealed themselves 1000 years after Darth Bane. Thoughts? --Azizlight 09:49, 21 Aug 2005 (UTC) --Master Starkeiller 23:47, 23 Aug 2005 (UTC)It's all percpective. I believe Palpatine was the most powerful Force-user to have ever existed. Mister X may believe he was the weakest. None of us is right.
 * Too vague to be encyclopedic. - Sikon 11:32, 21 Aug 2005 (UTC)
 * I agree with Sikon. Plus, I think Darth Bane was the most powerful Sith in his "new order". Note: The last sentence was just a random thought. I do no twant anyone to argue over it. KFan II 16:11, 23 Aug 2005 (UTC)

Locked? Protected?
This is ridiculous! Why can't I edit the page? What's going on? Can't I have a different opinion? I know this is a result of the edit wars, but this thing is outrageous! Okay, I edited the page a lot. We discussed about it, we were on a path of agreement on some matters and now, paf, "No, it's NOT going to be your way, shut up!". Please unlock it. We will keep discussing it and reach an agreement, I am sure. --Master Starkeiller 14:10, 21 Aug 2005 (UTC)Yes, but this is Wiki. It MUST be unlocked. This is Wiki for God's sake! --Master Starkeiller 14:17, 21 Aug 2005 (UTC)And who CAN edit it, anyway? The grand dictator that is always right? --Master Starkeiller 14:21, 21 Aug 2005 (UTC)But that's not a Wiki anymore... If nobody can edit it... --Master Starkeiller 14:25, 21 Aug 2005 (UTC)Let's decide it, then! --Master Starkeiller 14:29, 21 Aug 2005 (UTC)I am calm, it's just that I'm getting paranoid about that questionmark! I'm getting mad! Who is the administrator? --Master Starkeiller 14:33, 21 Aug 2005 (UTC)Thanks. Now, let's resolve all disputes, shall we? --Master Starkeiller 22:29, 23 Aug 2005 (UTC)I'm not outraged. I'm calm. But I don't think a poll would be a good way to solve the dispute. I think what's canon and what's not has nothing to do with opinions. I propose we keep discussing it until we find a solution that satisfies EVERYONE. Then it can be unlocked. I believe in the power of discussion. So, tell me, why do you think the questionmark isn't needed? Then I'll tell you why I think it is.
 * It's with mine, too. It's probally meant like that for every user to stop the edit war on the article. Cmdr. J. Nebulax 14:06, 21 Aug 2005 (UTC)
 * Well, if people will keep messing up the article, then it should stay locked in my opinion. Cmdr. J. Nebulax 14:13, 21 Aug 2005 (UTC)
 * It cant be editted by anyone until the admins unlock it AFAIK Durnar 14:18, 21 Aug 2005 (UTC)
 * Good lord man, theyve frozen one page because of a useless edit war thats going on, and it will be unfrozen when its decided on this very talk page ehat to do with it. Its not the end of the world. Durnar 14:23, 21 Aug 2005 (UTC)
 * Calm down! First of all, it's not for you to decide. That's the administrator's decission. Cmdr. J. Nebulax 14:26, 21 Aug 2005 (UTC)
 * Riffsyphon1024 is the main man I believe Durnar 14:31, 21 Aug 2005 (UTC)
 * Actually, User:WhiteBoy is the founder, but Riff is the most active of the admins. - Sikon 15:33, 21 Aug 2005 (UTC)
 * Unlock the page! This is proposterous! I mean, Main Page is not protected! Why should Palpatine be? Pretty soon they'll be locking up all the pages! KFan II 16:08, 23 Aug 2005 (UTC)
 * Good lord! Its all been explained perfectly clearly. This page is in the middle of an edit war, which is useless. Its staying locked until its decided how things should be (probably in a poll). Durnar 16:09, 23 Aug 2005 (UTC)
 * This page is locked only because consensus could not be reached on a certain issue and the page had to be reverted over 5 times. I advise that an edit war begins after 3 reverts, and so my locking of the page is justified. But as said already, this isn't the end of the world, there are over 10,500 other articles not protected that you can contribute to. -- Riffsyphon1024 19:04, 23 Aug 2005 (UTC)
 * Well said, Riffsyphon. I agree with you. If this article is to be continuely editted for only one thing, then it should be locked. Starkeiller, there is no need to be outraged. Once the edit war is resolved, it should be unlocked. Cmdr. J. Nebulax 20:45, 23 Aug 2005 (UTC)

I have a suggestion. As this page is locked and only admin can unlock it, then why not post any suggested changes here, and let the adminguy add them if he agrees with them. That way perhaps we could get Palpatine's list of appearances added to or something. My first suggestion is to add the short story In His Image to Palpatine's appearances 20:22, 24 Aug 2005 (UTC)
 * Actually, I also have something. In the table, next to "Affiliation", it says "Galactic Republic Senate...". But the Galactic Republic and its senate are, in a way, two different things. Shouldn't it be "Galactic Republic, Galactic Senate..." instead? Cmdr. J. Nebulax 21:06, 24 Aug 2005 (UTC)