Talk:Force ghost

http://img499.imageshack.us/img499/8502/iiam29pb.gif

I really like that image, I don't want to vandalize pages but is there any place I can put it and have it kept up? 152.163.100.203 22:11, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

"In Revenge of the Sith it is made known that "becoming one with the Force" is not in fact what happens to every Jedi, but only a recently discovered ability."

Is this really correct? it´s possible the knowledge was lost from thousands of years ago to the movie-era, only to be rediscovered by a more spiritually intuned Jedi. Or does it state "recently discovered" in the novelization? VT-16 23:54, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * I believe Qui-Gon is instructed by a 'shaman of the Whills', and, whilst this Whills business confuses me, I believe this means that someone in the past knew of it. --Fade 00:02, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * In the Tales of the Jedi comic, Ulic disappears. However in the KOTOR games, dead Jedi left a corpse like Qui-Gon did. In essence, you might say that the power was lost in the Great Sith War. Sounds like a good fix to me. ;) QuentinGeorge 03:27, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Apart from Ulic's disappearance, do we have any Expanded Universe appearance of a Force Ghost, taking place before the prequel era? 62.74.6.213 23:41, 1 Jul 2005 (UTC)
 * KOTOR, korriban tombs--Jinger 00:04, 2 Jul 2005 (UTC)
 * They're sith spirits. Different things. QuentinGeorge 00:17, 2 Jul 2005 (UTC)

yeh the Jedi ghosties and the Sith spirits of rage are two altogether different techniques of the force, the Sith ones even have the ability to possess a living thing. While the Jedi may have lost this ability or perhaps never had it before the Shaman of the Whills(not exactly jedi) taught the technique to Qui Gon. The Blue ghost thing is definatelty a light side power, which could also explain why Anakins blue ghostie reverted back to to his youthful self, before he turned to the dark side. In fact I would venture to say that perhaps the jedi have some measure of control over the appearance of the ghostie, and I could speculate that the ghost is also affected by events in the life of the Jedi, for example a major mark of self inflicted dark side induced trauma would not appear on a light side natured blue ghost. An arm lost while trying to use it to kill an innocent for example would not be missing on a redeemed Jedi's spirit body. A spiritual redemtion would manifest on the blue ghostie as a physical one..this possibility is even in keeping with some "real world" religous beliefs about the "soul body" our spirits inherit upon entering the afterlife. Namely Islam which teaches that the body that houses the spirit after the death of the physical one is called the soul and its attributes and "appearance" are actually formed by or MORAL character in this world, thus a morally beautiful person in this world would be a "physically"or "apparently" beautiful one in the afterlife, irrigardless of thier physical beauties in the living world. Perhaps future writers of the expanded universe will draw upon this idea and the wisdom of people who experience astral phenomenon to further detail the nature of this force power and the one practiced by the Sith.

You know, I find it strange that Yoda disappears with his clothes, and Obi without (his mantle).Inmobilus 18:35, 8 Aug 2005 (UTC)
 * Maybe it's related to the explanation, why his clothes are different than the other Jedi. Moff Rebus 21:36, 8 Aug 2005 (UTC)


 * It is plausible, and indeed considered likely by many, that the failure of Jinn to disappear at death was simply an error on George Lucas' part. I don't believe that this nonsense can be part of WP :s Unlearn what you have learned and discard everything about Force Ghosts before Qui-Gon :) --Sompeetalay 18:12, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Vergere
I loathe to bring up the dreaded philosopher-chicken, but does she really belong on the sith list? First off, the only source of her being in the sith is the sith themselves, not exactly the most truthful bunch. Additionally, Vergere had a habit of playing people. I would find it surprising if she actually espoused a philosophy of hatred and power. The most damning evidence of all, though, is that she didn't seem to be sustained in hatred like sith spirits after she died in Destiny's Way. So again I ask... why? 72.179.152.13 04:56, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

All good points, although I would say none of the ways Vergere appeared are much different than Exar Kun in the Jedi Academy series. So, I think adding her to the list based on Lumiya's word is probably good enough unless further evidence comes to the fore.Mad Jax 17:17, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Darth Nihilus
In kotor 2 his body disapeared shouldn't he be added to the list?
 * His disappearance seems to have not been meaning that he was becoming a ghost, but just dying. He had become incredibly deep in the dark side of the force, so much that he was an entity of it.

Nihilus' body did not disappear in the Kotor games, as I understand it. I am given to understand that Nihilus' body was in fact long dead before Kotor 2. It was a Sith Alchemy ritual wherein he encased his spirit inside his armor, and therefore that is what dissipated when he was defeated. I base this on the words of Darth Krayt in Legacy Volume I. Unless another source contradicts this, I think Nihilus should be removed from the list. Mad Jax 17:13, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Great Anakin's Ghost!
"Presumably, Darth Vader did not learn of this ability, which explains his surprise when Obi-Wan's body disappears when he is slain on the Death Star. However being the strongest in the Force of all the Jedi, the natural fate for him was to become a ghost no matter what."

Is this true? What source is it from? George Lucas' commentary near the end of Return of the Jedi seems to imply that Obi-Wan and Yoda had something to do with Anakin's retention of his idenity after joining the Force.
 * It's been left ambiguous. The original draft of RotJ (which had a duel over a lava lake) sees Yoda bringing Anakin's spirit back to the light side. The current canon has three theories: that Anakin learns the ability himself after Obi-Wan's death (or perhaps upon his own death); that Obi-Wan, Yoda or both bring Anakin's spirit back from the dark side, or the one stated in the article. My own take is that a Jedi has to sever all connections to the physical world to become part of the Force - i.e, they have to remove themselves completely from their bodies. Qui-Gon was cremated, so his body was destroyed, hence his ability to return. Obi-Wan and Yoda perfected Qui-Gon's ability, teaching themselves to 'vanish' their bodies upon death. Anakin's spirit is freed when Luke burns his body on the Endor moon - Kwenn 12:49, 4 Jan 2006 (UTC)
 * In Rouge planet there is a scene where Anakin tells Obi-Wan "I was having a dream. Qui-Gon was teaching me something. I forget what". Seems to me that this could be an explaination. 'Cause Qui-Gon first got the power, then taught it to Yoda and Obi-Wan (and supposedly Anakin). I recall hearing somewhere that Qui-Gon had been trying to contact Obi-Wan for a while, before he managed to. - Skywalka 07:05, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Appearances
Do ANH and AotC count as appearances by Force ghosts? We don't actually see Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan, just hear them - Kwenn 13:14, 4 Jan 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeah, but they are there. --Master Starkeiller 13:21, 4 Jan 2006 (UTC)
 * But can Qui-Gon manifest himself as a Force ghost? In his 'appearances', he seems limited to voice only, whereas Obi-Wan, Yoda and Anakin develop his ability to become true spirits. Yoda: Dark Rendezvous mentions only that the Force speaks to Yoda in the 'voice of Qui-Gon' - Kwenn 13:27, 4 Jan 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes he can. I think he does in one of the recent books. The young adult ones I think.
 * Do you mean The Last of the Jedi? Because again, Obi-Wan only hears his Master's voice, "coming from both the stars and within Obi-Wan's own head" - Kwenn 14:12, 4 Jan 2006 (UTC)
 * Doesn't his spirit appear in The Desperate Mission? --Master Starkeiller 14:20, 4 Jan 2006 (UTC)
 * No. That's the book I was referring to. Obi-Wan only hears his voice - Kwenn 14:20, 4 Jan 2006 (UTC)
 * Okay then, then I need to update my info. Yet, as the netherworld of the Force is not an actual place but a state of existance, voice or shimmering blue image would be the same and if the spirit is listed in "Appearances", then the voice should too. --Master Starkeiller 14:25, 4 Jan 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, that's fair enough, but in that case, ANH should be listed as the first appearance (with Obi-Wan's voice) - Kwenn 14:29, 4 Jan 2006 (UTC)
 * That's right. It was in A New Hope that we first saw a dead guy talk to a living guy, hence first appearance of the Force ghost. --Master Starkeiller 14:31, 4 Jan 2006 (UTC)
 * Would Ulic Qel-Droma count as a Force ghost? There seems to be a difference between dark and light spirits, though Ulic returned to the light upon his death. Thus, Redemption and The Clone Wars could also be listed if that's the case - Kwenn 14:33, 4 Jan 2006 (UTC)
 * Since we don't yet know of the difference between Force ghosts of the Sith and the Jedi if there's any, all dead people that can interact with living people (or with other dead people) are listed as Force ghosts. --Master Starkeiller 14:40, 4 Jan 2006 (UTC)

Thought bomb victims
It just ocurred to me that every thought bomb victim became a Force ghost trapped inside the sphere on Ruusan. Qordis is listed 'cause we saw him (we also saw Kaan). Should we list the others? --Master Starkeiller 14:55, 4 Jan 2006 (UTC)
 * I think the entire Valley of the Jedi-business deserves a section of its own in this article, since it's a bit of a unique case KEJ 14:58, 4 Jan 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeah, but Kaan and Qordis must be removed from the list with the regular cases. --Master Starkeiller 15:11, 4 Jan 2006 (UTC)
 * Agreed KEJ 15:28, 4 Jan 2006 (UTC)

Yes Qordis and Kaan were in fact hallucinations by Bane's distraught mind, not true force spirits. However, I think the only victim of the thought bomb that might retain their identity would be Githani, since she wasn't at the apex of the blast and thus her spirit might not have been shredded (as described in Darth Bane:Rule of Two) when her body disintegrated. So I would disagree with the assertion that all the victims would be considered force ghosts. Mad Jax 17:23, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Zeth Durron
How do we know Zeth Durron wasn't Force-sensitive? Is it stated in the book? Lieutenant Gerard 02:37, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
 * We don't, but it is unlikely--many Jedi are the only ones in their family, and if he had been found out At Carida he would have been killed--Erl 23:14, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Anakin Solo
I noticed that Anakin Solo's name was taken off the list. I think that it should remain off the list, at at least put down suspect. Though I refuse to read certain books of the NJO (and Star by Star and Traitor are among them) I've read enough from our own articles and the Unnofficial New Jedi Order homepage to raise some doubts about it: At the time Jacen saw Anakin's ghots, he was nearing an emotional breakdown, and it may have just been that Jacen finally snapped. Also, from what I've been given to understand, Vergere somehow cut off Jacen from the Force (though not permanent like Nomi Sunrider did to Ulic Qel-Droma) so at the very least it should be suspect. -- SFH 02:48, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Alright, I'll give hope a bit more chance, but I gave up after the TUF...it really looks like he's going to stay dead :(. Also, because of the the direction the Dark Nest trilogy is taking, it seems he will stay dead because now I think I know why they changed their plans from Jacen being killed to Anakin.  &mdash; Mirlen 18:07, 30 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I was under the impression that they killed Anakin by direct order of George Lucas. -- SFH 15:52, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Del Ray originally wanted to kill off Jacen, but George Lucas said no, it had to be Anakin because he didn't want confusion over the two Anakins or something along that line. I've always often wondered why (because the confusion over two Anakins never made sense to me) and I was just saying, that after reading the Dark Nest trilogy, I think I know why it specifically had to be Anakin who had to be killed and not Jacen (and it does clear up Lucas's reason a bit). &mdash;Mirlen 23:48, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Apparently you're interpreting something about Dark Nest that either I am not or don't want to, but don't tell me, because I don't want to ruin the surprise. Still, one must ask the question, why did any of the Solo children have to die? Nothing can be said to convince that it wasn't for sails purposes. -- SFH 00:31, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I won't :). Well, unbiasedly, I can see why they had to kill of Anakin (or any of the Solo children) in terms of plot and character development, but I still protest against this&mdash;even if George Lucas's reason makes sense after reading the trilogy (in my opinion).  Couldn't they have...well, seriously injure him instead...?  Or how 'bout just leaving them alone? &mdash; Mirlen 01:05, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Varieties
It seems to me that there are a number of different types of Force Ghosts. There is the Obi-Wan type, "at one with the force," the Kun type, imprinted by pure power on a specific place, the Palps type, unable to do much of anything w/o a body, the Ruusan type, created by the thought bomb, and the Daeshara'cor type, one who does not know the technique, but rather achieves enough oneness in the moment of death to vanish. Ideas? Can we add this as a BTS explanation, or what?--Erl 23:19, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree that there should be sub groups and how they are different 74.129.45.167 07:39, 18 November 2006 (UTC)tonyman1989

Luke Skywalker

 * When Exar knocked down Luke in Jedi Academy Trilogy, didnt Luke become the first Force-sensitive who reach the level of Force ghost without death? I think it worth mentioning, maybe with some more explaination about this special case. Darth Kevinmhk 14:31, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Callista

 * What about Callista? She certainly showed some of the traits of a Force Ghost while aboard 'Eye of Palpatine' (I think she even 'appeared' to Luke, too). Could the technique she learned from Djinn Altis, her master, be a variation of Qui-Gon's? Tocneppil 09:28, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Why doesn't Qui-Gon's body disappear like all others who turn into force ghosts?
In all the movies every person who becomes a force ghost has their body vanish except Qui-Gon. I was wondering why this never happened.

Also, does anyone know if Palpatine's body disappears. It seems like it explodes into dark side energy.

We don't know for certain if Vader's biological tissue disappeared, since the suit would burn in a similar manner, body or no inside. The databank said that it did, but other sources say that it didn't. All of them predate Revenge of the Sith, where it was shown that disappearance did not equate with returning as a spirit. So, the answer is still up in the air.

The explosion issue is a question that plagued folks for a long time. The impression the movie gave me is that Palpatine's body hit a reactor or something, not that the body was the source of the explosion.

Later, the EU attributes that explosion to originating from Palpatine. In the Thrawn trilogy, the clone of Jorus C'boath erupts the same way. I read it as the energy releasing from the body and potentially leaving some of the corpse behind (since at least some effect of the dark side "radiation" would damage it). But I believe it still to be an unanswered question.Mad Jax 17:38, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Dark Woman
Is this the ability An'ya Kuro uses to seemingly walk through walls ?Tocneppil 00:54, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
 * It sounds like Force Sight. MoffRebus 08:13, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Qel-Droma
Does anyone have any more context for what the heck happens when Ulic appears to Anakin in the Clone Wars game? That's a long time for a ghost to stick around... Yrfeloran 18:11, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

lifespan of a ghost
is there a limit to how long you can be a ghost because obi-wan could not come back after 9 aby a length of 9 years

but there are sith that have been arould for 7,000 years (Dathka Graush)

then there are jedi that can live for 4,000 years (Vodo-Siosk Baas)

but there should be two spirits pages one for jedi and one for sith because jedi go to the force and can come back and forth but sith spirits must stay on this plane. 74.129.45.167 02:28, 8 November 2006 (UTC)tonyman1989
 * This is actually an interesting question. Obi-Wan could only go 9 years, or so he claimed. Anakin Skywalker may or may not have held on for 26 years, depending on whether "Stand firm!" was him or a hallucination. Luke appears to have held on for something like 80 years, depending on when he dies and assuming his Legacy appearance was likewise real and not conjured by Cade's drug-addled mind. So how do the long-term blue ghosties hang on? -- Darth Culator  (Talk)(TINC) 21:44, 8 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Ben is pretty infamous for stretching the truth and speaking in hyperbole when he thinks it's nessecary or for a greater cause. He could just simply have thought that Luke would be better off on his own without knowing he could always look to him for advice, and that at that point he was strong enough to do so.Eric-Wan 18:50, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Tahl
Shouldn't something be mentioned about Tahl in regards to Qui-Gon learning this ability.

Taken from the Qui-Gon page:

The death of Tahl drove Qui-Gon into a terrible state of depression and a rise in strong dark side emotions. He blamed himself for Tahl's death and even recalled his past failure with Xanatos. He swore revenge on Balog and made it his top priority to track him down. Obi-Wan, who was worried about his master, tried to assure him that there was nothing that he could have done to save her, but Qui-Gon wouldn't hear it. Finally tracking down Balog, Qui-Gon cornered him and was about to slaughter the man when he heard a voice utter two words:

“No, Qui-Gon.”

The warning made Qui-Gon realize the dark path he was following and he abruptly deactivated his lightsaber, snapping out of his own anger, horrified at the dark path he was about to go down. After taking Balog into custody, Qui-Gon thanked Obi-Wan for stopping him, only to hear from his apprentice that it was not him who said those words. It was then that Qui-Gon realized that it was the voice of Tahl. The Jedi returned to Coruscant and gave Tahl a proper funeral.

A possibly explaination of Sith Force Ghost
While Light Siders die and become Force Ghost by love and whatnot, it is possible that Sith hold on to theirselves through their hate for whoever happened to kill them. As such, some may attach themselves to possesions they owned during life and because they were killed their hate was transfered into that item. It is ALSO possible that Qui-Gon was completely wrong (as was the Prophecy) and that Dark Siders through a entirely different mean can become Force Ghosts.


 * It's all theory here, but I've always gotten the impression that the Sith spirits we've seen are actually ghosts in the literal sense. They're forcibly doomed to be in a status of limbo and unable to move on and become one with the Force, either as punishment ( Jedi Hell, essentially ) or until they atone for what they've done. For the most part they've been linked to a specific place, just like a "real" ghost would be, and are obviously never too happy about it. Either way all of the instances of Sith spirits I can think of seem extremely different from when we see Jedi. Eric-Wan 18:58, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

More Powerful than you can Possibly Imagine
I think there is a possiblity that the Force ghosts take on god like properties hence Obiwan's quote. My thinking on this situation is that while a being that is one with the force may be infinately powerful the others like them might prevent them from changing anyones destiny directly or effecting galactic events

Obiwan may have been able to tell Luke what to do but could not do it himself, not because he wasnt powerful enough to do it but rather that the other spirits would not let him interfere.

This could mean that the netherworld of the force is a vast spiritual battleground where the spirits of the light and dark battle for supremacy. none able to destroy another but by influencing galactic events or the balance of the force itself they achive their goals.

For example Exar Kun might not be literaly be trapped in that tempple as he is powerful enough to destroy the galaxy so others like him have forced him to be imprissioned in the temmple as they cant kill him cuz he is already dead.

this may also explain why Obiwan's ghost only apeared to luke for a certain time period. he may have had too much influence on the galaxy and the other spirits may have limited said influence

i have no proof of any of this it is just my thinking that if i were more powerful than any one can imagine i would try to use that power to change things I didnt like, and with differing views between the jedi and sith I would think such spirits would be in a constant supernatual war.

Siri
Did Siri turn into a force ghost or not? I have looked everywhere to find out and still don't know. If you know please tell me.

Provide some more background. What book did she die? Where is there some mention of the possibility? It would help out those who might look into it a bit more if you were to provide some context.Mad Jax 17:44, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Use of the word "Ghost"
I notice that the new figure in Star Wars Miniatures is called "Obi-Wan Kenobi, Jedi Spirit". And it got me wondering: do sources actually use the term "ghost"? Would it be more accurate to call this article "Force Spirit"? -BaronGrackle 22:42, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Tulak Hord
Why is Tulak Hord listed as having dissapeared when he died? There seems to be no information about how he died. -MPK 20:00, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm wondering the same thing about Darth Traya and Naga Sadow. We've seen the body of none of these three die, nor have we seen any of them return as a ghost, so why are they listed here?


 * Naga Sadow's ghost trained Freedon Nadd I believe, but Hord I don't know about, and I KNOW Traya's body does not vanish. Din&#39;s Fire 997 19:27, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Possible Difference
There is no source for this, but it seems that Light Side force ghosts can't be killed (of course ghosts can't be destroyed at all, but can be freed, I presume), as for the Dark Side force ghosts - there've been many cases when a force ghost was either badly wounded or destroyed by a living forceuser (or smb else).

Ajunta Pall seems to fall under such unofficial "rule", he was redeemed by Revan, but in Dark Side version one can simply kill him. Force ghosts that have been destroyed can also be seen in books.

Marka Ragnos could have fallen under such rule, but he didn't interact with others physically per se. He used Tavion as a way to fight Jaden. And that's all. It is not known whether his spirit survived after the defeat, but it's possible... Anyway he might have remained as a spirit because of lack of a "solid" body.

I believe there are other examples... Neterwan 20:32, 3 February 2009 (UTC)