Talk:Jedi Civil War

Exile's Extract
Wherever that extract is taken from (it isn't in KOTOR II, at least), it is inaccurate. "The twelve great Masters"? When the soon-to-be Exile appeared before the Council, only five Masters were present - Vrook Lamar, Kavar, Zez-Kai Ell, Lonna Vash and Atris. - Sikon 17:01, 3 Jul 2005 (UTC)


 * At the time the other seven Jedi Masters were most probably away fighting Revan when the Exile turned himself in. Chances are all twelve of the Masters would have banished him so the views Five Master's represent the views of the entire council. - Jasca Ducato 19:54, 23 Aug 2005 (GMT)


 * Where is that extract from anyway? I'd sure like to know. - Niirfa-sa 18:07, 7 Oct 2005 (UTC)
 * I can't find an official source for it, and I'm tempted to remove it. --Fade 15:39, 19 Nov 2005 (UTC)

Title?
Why is there no reference to the 'Jedi Civil War' being the term coined by Republic citizens who didn't understand the war? e.g. " the 'Jedi Civil War' is a misnomer" Jedi Xian 17:58, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I, for one, wish this article was named the "Second Sith War" since that is what it is called in the NEC (KOTOR calls it the "Sith War" which is too easily confused with the "Great Sith War"). The only source that calls it the "Jedi Civil War" is KOTOR:TSL and I don't really understand the developers' reasoning for changing the name. Unfortunately, since the sequel was released after the NEC, it takes precedence...--Sentry 22:44, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I actually argued briefly with Chris Avellone about this at the Obsidian boards. I'll forever disagree with the reasoning behind the name change - and not just because the Sith aren't Jedi. For it to have been a "Jedi Civil War", it would have had to have been restricted to the Jedi alone - the war, as presented in KotOR 1, is NOT a Jedi vs Sith conflict, but a clear Sith Empire vs Republic conflict. Remember Manaan? So, I've rationalised it in my head as referring to a *galactic* civil war that was *instigated* by fallen Jedi. Thus being the "Jedi" Civil War. Nothing else makes sense to me.(Ulicus 23:42, 19 May 2006 (UTC))

But it is explained, in-game, that 'Jedi Civil War' isn't the true name of the war, but what mistakenly dubbed it. Shouldn't we just re-title it 'Second Sith War' and make a mention of how it was known to the common person as Jedi Civil War? Jedi Xian 23:49, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Everyone in the sequel, including kreia, refers to the war as the "Jedi Civil War" and according to the developers, the name change was authorized by LucasArts. So, sadly, its official. :( --Sentry 01:06, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm aware that most of the characters call it that, but couldn't it be argued that that's just because it is the more widely known (in-universe) title for the war? I think it would be infinitely more appropriate if 'Jedi Civil War' was stuck under 'aka' or 'more commonly known as'. I mean, at the very least a mention in the article about the hideously misleading name for the war is called for! Jedi Xian 01:29, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Then, by all means, feel free to add a note to the 'Behind the scenes' section. I fully agree that the naming controversy should be mentioned...--Sentry 06:22, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Is it really not called the "Jedi Civil War" in KOTOR I? I could've sworn I remembered the name being used. Kuralyov 21:44, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Nope. 'Sith War' is the only title the war is given in the game... 'Jedi Civil War' didn't suddenly appear until the sequel.--Sentry 00:48, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

How did the sith attack Dantooine?
I've wondered, Did Malak Bomb it or did he attack it with dark jedi?

Master Nikolce 11:02, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
 * First he pummelled it to the ground with an orbital bombardment as is evident in the game. Then in-game we find out that he later sent ground troops down to the planet to raid the Academy there. Jasca Ducato 12:18, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Malachor V
"Sith energies of the planet to manipulate the Jedi fighting in orbit. One by one, he overpowered them and drew them to the dark side." I must question if this statement is true or not. Since Atton said that Revan wasn't even present at the Battle at Malachor and said he had been delayed by a Mandlorian scouting patrol. How could he have possibly used the Sith energies if he wasn't even there? Or is my memory wrong? Part X: Proving Grounds Time frame: 3,961 - 3,956 B.B.Y. Period name: Knights of the Old Republic
 * Revan was present at Malachor V. This is where he killed the old Mandalore, according to Canderous. - Sikon [ Talk ] 07:18, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Yup, Canderous first mentioned Malachor V during one of his final conversations in KOTOR (FYI - Part of that convo is quoted in the Battle of Malachor V article). In that conversation, Canderous states that Revan killed Mandalore and won the war during the battle. The sentence, quoted in the post above, which we are discussing was originally written by me and it is little more than a paraphrase of what is said in the Chronicles of the Old Republic... Yet, I can see where you are coming from. KOTOR 2 greatly obscures what happened during the battle of Malachor V. The sequel seems to imply that Revan had little to do with it. Obsidian decided to place much of the responsibility for what happened there on the Exile and, thereby, introduced some slight plot discrepancies that have never been adequately clarified or explained...--Sentry 04:30, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Guess I better post this so no noobs change stuff without knowing better... Its an excerpt from Chronicles of the Old Republic - Copyright LucasArts

It is a period of tumult and astuteness for the galaxy's most powerful entities, as the Mandalorian conflict culminates. The Jedi, fighting alongside the Republic and their finest tactical minds, such as Admiral SAUL KARATH aboard his flagship Leviathan, begin to force the fierce Mandalorians back into a retreat. The rout of the Mandalorians reaches a crescendo above the skies of Malachor V. Unbeknownst to the Jedi Order, DARTH REVAN has discovered numerous Sith artifacts and holocrons, all stored in great tomb-like cities buried beneath Malachor V's surface. As Revan plundered these tombs and relics, he fell deeper into the Dark Side. He learned of the location and the true nature of Korriban, he learned of the location of other Sith artifacts, and he learned how those strong in the light side of the Force could be seduced and made to see the strength inherent in the Sith teachings.

Revan knew he had discovered more than a staging area for the Mandalorian War - he had discovered an ancient, planet-sized Sith storehouse of knowledge. He had discovered a world that held one purpose - to teach and train others in the ways of the Sith. He had discovered a weapon that he could use against the Mandalorians, and a weapon by which he could convert more Jedi to his cause. This process of "turning" Jedi into SITH ASSASSINS continued even as the Jedi Council hailed Revan as a hero, as he lead the Republic forces to victory over the Mandalorians in the skies above Malachor V, and forces them to surrender. Revan is able to draw upon the dark side energies of the planet below and use it during the battle, destroying the Mandalore and ending the Mandalorian threat. Simultaneously, more and more Jedi, unable to ignore the power emanating from the planet below, become corrupted by its influence.

--Sentry 05:47, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Uhm. This part of the chronicles is contradicting the games. Revan didn't become a Sith (and didn't accept the title Darth) until after the Mandalorian Wars. By the way, I don't remember Atton saying anything about Revan not present at Malachor, or any discrepancies in the description of the battle whatsoever. - Sikon [ Talk ] 08:43, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
 * In what ways does it contradict the games? Revan fell to the dark side and became a Sith before the battle of malachor V. That statement is made in this official document and nothing in the games contradicts it that I am aware of...--Sentry 06:08, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
 * As for the discrepancies during the battle, there are a LOT of them. Compare canderous' conversations about the battle in KOTOR 1 and 2. In the first game, he gives complete credit for the victory to Revan in very strong language. In the sequel, he explicitly states that it was the Exile who commanded the fleet that defeated the mandalorians. In addition, Atton DOES make a vague statement to the effect that Revan was delayed and was not present during the battle. He says this during his last and longest converstaion with the Exile...--Sentry 06:08, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Exact quote, please? (As for Canderous, I don't see the discrepancy. Canderous may have discovered the truth about Exile and the MSG between the games.) - Sikon [ Talk ] 06:23, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Scratch that! I just checked, I guess its not in that conversation with Atton... I could have sworn that it was. Anyway, I know for certain that it is mentioned in the game at least once that Revan was delayed by Mandalorian scouts or something outside the system. Perhaps Bao says it during his converstion about the MSG or it could be in a loading screen... I don't have time to search the whole game for that obscure quote at the moment, but I strongly remember it from the game and it is mentioned all over the internet...--Sentry 06:50, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

On the general topic of "when Revan fell", while I'm definitely not a fan of the Chronicles, I'm pretty tired of people saying over and over that Revan fell "after the mandalorian wars". There are plenty of hints throughout *both* games, indicates that Revan fell at an unspecified time *during* the wars. Not least becuase it was *straight after* the battle of Malachor that the Sith teachings "swept through the ranks". Had Revan only *just* fallen, do you really think it would have been so swift? The chronicles do contradict some stuff from the games- suggesting that Revan fell during the mandalorian wars however, is *not* an example of these contradictions. Contradictions in the Chronicles include Revan "constructing a stronghold" - this didn't happen, he *found* the Trayus Academy on planet, and utilised it. He built nothing. The sentences suggesting that he "built a new training facility" should be removed from the article. True to the chronicles, incorrect as far as the game is concerned.(Ulicus 23:48, 19 May 2006 (UTC))
 * And to back up Sentry, I also remember comments made by a character suggesting that Revan was delayed before he could get to Malachor. I might have heard it while sifting through the dialog files though, so it's possible it was cut from the game.(Ulicus 23:50, 19 May 2006 (UTC))
 * Ya, that might be it. I was an active member of the Obsidian forums for a while and I might have picked up that bit of information from a discussion about cut content, but I'm not sure... I'll have to replay the game again to find out, I guess. On another note, how is the the bit of information about Revan reconstructing the Trayus academy a contradiction?--Sentry 08:58, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, the Chronicles say that he "ordered a stronghold to be constructed", but in the game it is made plain that he found the Trayus Academy intact. He may well have given it its name, or whatever, but he didn't build it. That's all I mean. Other stuff the chronicles get wrong is more obvious - like referring to Revan as a Jedi Master. (Ulicus 14:20, 22 May 2006 (UTC))

New title image
We could really use a high quality title image for this article since it is going to be featured in a month. I removed the last one because it had next to nothing to do with the article and it was just plain ugly. Does anyone have any decent screenshots, promotional images, or concept art that would work at the top of the page?--Sentry 04:37, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Here are some possibilities:
 * 1) http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/9353/leviathanchase3vh.th.jpg
 * 2) http://img240.imageshack.us/img240/858/sithforces2xe.th.jpg
 * 3) *http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/7059/sith2cc.th.jpg
 * 4) **I carefully edited the image to make it less panaramic in order to make Malak appear much larger in the frame.
 * Marvelous! - Sikon [ Talk ] 09:12, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I love the second one, we should ut that one in. Jasca Ducato 08:00, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree, number two. - Lord Hydronium 08:30, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I prefer the second one as well, but then again, the first image seems more representative of the conflict...--Sentry 09:22, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Why can't we insert both? - Sikon [ Talk ] 11:26, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Why not indeed? ;) Anyway, we seem to be in agreement. I'll just upload them both since they are bound to be useful somewhere...--Sentry 02:15, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Image Combo

 * Hmmm... I don't know about the new layout introduced by Jasca Ducato. Its kinda neat, but it causes a lot of distortion. I rather liked how the article looked before...--Sentry 08:32, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I disagree- I really like the new image combo. Especially after Clone Wars' precedent, it really adds to the article by being able to see all those main images right at the top.  I would say two things need to be done still, though:  First, the caption on the second picture is a little shaky.  Maybe something a little less nonspecific- the Jedi weren't all "subterfuge and kidnapping", the capture of Revan was an exception.  Secondly, the Trayus Academy picture needs to be made smaller and moved down a bit.  --Thetoastman 12:56, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Firstly, i know the Jedi don't usually use subterfuge and kidnapping, thats why i put "in desperation". Secondly, the only bad thing is the fact that the "Origins" title is followed by a massive gap which i cant remove with manually moving the title down god-knows how many spaces. Jasca Ducato 17:54, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I rewrote the captions a bit and removed the redundant image (its already in the behind the scenes section). The poem is cheesy, but at least everything fits properly now...--Sentry 20:02, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I know i created the image combo but, personally, i don't like the poetry aspect that much. I prefer it to "match" the Clone Wars article more, with no poetry. Jasca Ducato 08:19, 20 May 2006 (UTC)


 * How about something simple and general, like this? --Thetoastman 15:53, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Frankly, I would prefer these poetic introductions blasted. For all wars. - Sikon [ Talk ] 16:19, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Honestly, I'm with Sikon on this one. As I said from the beginning, the idea is nice, but I don't think such things have a place in any sort of encyclopedia. The whole concept is just too fanboyish (no offense Jasca Ducato). I don't see what purpose the images and captions serve. They don't add much to the article, yet they cause a lot of issues: taking up space, distorting the visual balance and general structure of the page, and breeding fanon...--Sentry 04:54, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
 * None taken Sentry. I can understand your views, i just thought it would look quite nice as it would match the Clone Wars and Galactic Civil War articles. Jasca Ducato 07:35, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
 * i like the image combo idea, it brings a sense of standard to the articles, plus it does look good apperance wise. Jedi Dude
 * I like the image combo, but I think maybe it should have the form of a gallery rather than images spread over the article. KEJ 08:58, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I'll make a CT discussion. - Sikon [ Talk ] 09:35, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Since Clone Wars and Galactic Civil War both use this format, and they are, without a shadow of a doubt, the two most important and documented wars in this database, using the format for the Jedi Civil Wars follows a precendented standard of article style that is necessary if it is to be considered on the level with those wars, especially since the Jedi Civil War is arguably next in line for importance and documentation after those two. Unless the standard is changed, it should be procedure to try to bring articles up to this standard.  That said... I definitely think we need something original (The CW and GCW poems sound cringingly similar) and better than the semi-coherent, non-formal hippy stuff we have up now.  --Thetoastman 02:54, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Okay, I made the pictures look a lot cleaner, added one, and changed the poetic into, even though it's probably futile since it looks like it's going to be removed soon anyway... ah, well. --Thetoastman 03:25, 23 May 2006 (UTC)