Wookieepedia:Good article nominations/Iving Creel


 * ''The following discussion is preserved as an archive of a good article nomination that was successful. Please do not modify it.

Iving Creel

 * Nominated By:Toprawa and Ralltiir 23:11, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Nomination Comments:

(+7)
Support
 * 1) Your articles on ESB-related stuff never fails to amaze me.  Chack Jadson  (Talk) 21:34, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
 * 2)  Aqua  Unasi  16:21, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
 * 3) Cavalier One ( Squadron channel ) 19:26, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
 * 4) I love that story! Harrar 09:54, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
 * 5) --Eyrezer 10:21, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
 * 6) -- AdmirableAckbar (Talk) 23:29, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
 * 7) I do enjoy our verbal sparring, Toprawa... ;) Darth Xadún ( Consult the Holocron ) 08:39, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Oppose
 * 1) Xadún's scrawlings...
 * 2) * If Jaster Mereel is Boba Fett, all further refences to 'Mereel' should read Fett. Otherwise, it can be misleading as to whether it is Fett or Mereel (irrespective of who everyone else thought he was).
 * 3) **I don't necessarily believe this is the best course of action for this particular article. I agree with what you're saying, and pushed for the very thing on the Nyna Calixte article in regards to the Calixte vs. Morrigan Corde persona alternating. However, in this stage of Fett's life, while living on Concord Dawn he strictly went by the name of Jaster Mereel, and did not alternate between the two. Your suggestion would serve better on the Fett article, I feel, where it would be silly to alternate between the two. From Iving Creel's perspective, however, he only knew the man as Jaster Mereel.
 * 4) ** The fact that Creel knew Fett under an alias for the duration of their contact does not chance the fact that the character is Boba Fett, and not Jaster Mereel. The names should be changed, or the Article is written from a perspective, and therefore has bias to a character. Articles need to be neutral, to the best of their ability.
 * 5) ***I think you're misinterpreting the idea of the NPOV rule. Articles on certain characters are meant to be written from their perspective while maintaining a neutral description of what's going on, in terms of not showing bias toward, for example, right and wrong. This isn't a violation of the neutral perspective in that sense, it's showing the situation from Creel's angle, as in he and the planet of Concorn Down knew the man as Jaster Mereel. Toprawa and Ralltiir 20:26, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
 * 6) **** On that arguement, I concede it is a neutral POV. But since Mereel in this instance is just an alias, surely all references to him should read Fett?
 * 7) *****If I may chime in, I agree with Toprawa, though I understand where Xadún is coming from. I'll give you another example: in The Paradise Snare, for the majority of the book Han Solo is known only as Vyyk Draygo to everyone on the planet Ylesia, and no-one knows his true identity. However, when writing Bria Tharen or Teroenza's articles, it would make more sense to refer to him as "Draygo" initially, because that is who they knew him as and it saves an unnecessary explanation of who Draygo actually is. Does that make sense? -- AdmirableAckbar (Talk) 10:51, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
 * 8) ****** I can see what you mean. But I feel aliases should be mentioned initially, specified as being an alias, and then disregarded, as they are usually invented persons. But this instance could be even more confusing as the alias was an actual person. Interestingly, "Vyyk Drago" isn't mentioned in the entire Bria Tharen article (I don't possess the sources to add it unfortunately), and after one reference to his alias, Han is refered to as either Solo or Han Solo for the remained of the Teroenza article. The latter is what I feel should be applied here. An initial reference, then using the chacter's real name.
 * 9) *******I would like to point out, going back to your original concern for this objection, confusion, is that the article clearly explains in both the intro and biography that this Jaster Mereel character is, in actuality, Boba Fett. The intro: "Creel visited an imprisoned Journeyman Protector—Boba Fett, going by the name Jaster Mereel—who had been detained after murdering a corrupt fellow Protector." ...and the bio: "Creel entered the jail cell of a recently imprisoned young Journeyman Protector of Concord Dawn going by the name Jaster Mereel, in reality the young bounty hunter Boba Fett." I can't imagine where your confusion is coming from. Again, in keeping with the perspective of the central focus of this article - Iving Creel and, secondary, Concord Dawn - there was never a murder trial for Boba Fett. It was Jaster Mereel's murder trial. Toprawa and Ralltiir 14:49, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
 * 10) ********As well, at this point Jaster Mereel was pretty much his official name on Concord Dawn, as I understand it. It's what Creel knew him as and it's what the courts knew him as, so there's no reason why the article can't or shouldn't refer to him as "Mereel." It's the same situation with Darth Vader; surely you wouldn't want an article mentioning him to refer to him as "Skywalker." -- AdmirableAckbar (Talk) 23:29, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
 * 11) * A little more info on Fett when you introduce him would be nice.
 * 12) **Added.
 * 13) * "Unknown to Creel was that the man had raped Fett's wife, Sintas, causing Fett to seek vengeance." Re-phrase this so it makes sense, and always use full names when mentioning a character for the first time in an article.
 * 14) **I added this, so I feel like I should ensure it make sense. Changed the sentence a little, though it still refers to him as Fett rather than mereel, because she was Fett's wife, after all, not Mereel, as in his fake identity.  Chack Jadson  (Talk) 23:36, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
 * 15) ***Thanks, Chack.
 * 16) * Infobox - Either put a canonically confirmed birth date or leave it blank, please
 * 17) **I don't think this is necessarily that bad of a practice. While we don't have an exact DOB for the man, we know from the book's description of Creel that he is canonically several years Boba Fett's senior, and thus was born sometime in the time frame prior to Fett's birth in 31.5 BBY. A similar infobox can be found on the Clabburn the Elder Featured Article. Mind you, this isn't just a random assumption based on whether someone appears older than someone who is a teenager, for example. This is indeed a canonical description. Toprawa and Ralltiir 14:15, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
 * 18) *** Just because it's slipped though on an FA doesn't make it correct. If this was the case, all character articles could have an "approximate" DOB based on how old they are compared to canonically age-defined characters. And that, IMHO, would just look amateurish.
 * 19) ****Once again, I think you're misinterpreting the meaning behind including this. Nothing "slipped by" the Inquisitors. Of course any and all article could include a "Sometime before X date," but the uniqueness of these instances is that the they are canonically described to be born around this time, rather than just guessing based on someone's appearance. If we could give a certain date for Creel we would, but we're working with what we have. In this instance, we're nailing it down as close as canonically possible. There's nothing amateurish about this at all. Toprawa and Ralltiir 20:26, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
 * 20) ***** A poor example on my part. The problem I have is that where there is no definate date given, I feel there should not be a speculated date. I understand that sources will not always grant the necessary information - it would serve no purpose to outline a character's whole history within a storyline. But I feel that unless you can actualy confirm a character's DOB it shouldn't be in an article, vauge canonical reference or not. How about, as compromise, remove the unconfirmed DOB from the infobox but refer to his age in the BtS as unconfirmed with the canonical reference to an approximate birth date?
 * 21) ******This isn't really a valid objection. You're not showing me any concrete evidence not to include it. There is nothing speculative about the date, and it is 100% verified canon. Aside from the FAs I've already showed you, we now have a persistent precedent with the Dhol article, which employs a similar example of the "unclear" DOB/DOD deal. Toprawa and Ralltiir 16:32, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
 * 22) ******* I guess I'm the only one that finds the absense of an exact date irksome. And if that's the case, I just don't want to be at loggerheads with people. Darth Xadún ( Consult the Holocron ) 20:38, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
 * 23) *Not bad. I like GAN/FANs on people I've never heard of, mainly because I think it's easier to judge them without bias. Darth Xadún ( Consult the Holocron ) 20:20, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Comments
 * Not really opposition since I'm not sure - but as Revelation had extra information on the case, should that be added to the article? Also, is Creel mentioned (either directly or indirectly) in the book? - Cavalier One ( Squadron channel ) 10:40, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Is this the case where the man Fett killed was guilty of raping Sintas? I believe it is, and that thus needs to be added. I don't think Creel is referenced, but I could be wrong.  Chack Jadson  (Talk) 00:10, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Hmm, very interesting. I'm not sure, since I've never read Revelation. If someone could shed some definitive light on this, it would be greatly appreciated. Toprawa and Ralltiir 00:41, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm almost positive this is the case mentioned. I'll add the info for you in the next day or two unless someone else does it first.  Chack Jadson  (Talk) 21:45, 25 June 2008 (UTC)