Talk:Darth Traya/Archive1

Fanon?
What was all that stuff about Yavin and the mask and the corruption of Nihilus and Sion- is there a source for this? It sounded like fanon. --Fade 12:16, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Strong possibility it is Fanon. The games seem to have a way of eliciting that from fanboys. QuentinGeorge 12:17, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Dark Lord?
User:Sikon has said that Traya was never Dark Lord of the Sith? Does anyone more familiar with the games know if it authoratively says either way? QuentinGeorge 11:00, 28 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * She learned from ancient Sith artifacts, but never took the title. So her apprenticea, Nihilus (taught by Kreia), and Sion (minor Sith Lord under Revan, later trained by Kreia) didn't hold the title either. --Imp 11:08, 28 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Then the three of them should be taken out of the succession then, unless they claimed it. (Remember, you can be a Dark Lord even if your own master wasn't.) QuentinGeorge 11:17, 28 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Indeed. There was a discussion in Wikipedia, and it was also related to Malak's succession box. The consensus was that Traya, Nihilus and Sion were not Dark Lords of the Sith and therefore should be erased from succession boxes. - Sikon 15:55, 28 Jun 2005 (UTC)

They are Dark Lords of the Sith. They are acknowledged as such not only in the game title, not only by characters in the game, but even in The New Esential Chronology. Put them back in. This is a site for facts, not mere speculation which seems to be sweeping the site as of late and needs to be stopped.
 * It's not acknowledged anywhere in the title. "Sith Lord" is not synonymous with "Dark Lord of the Sith". Please sign your posts, as well. QuentinGeorge 04:16, 21 Nov 2005 (UTC)

Kae and Kreia
I don't think it's a fact that Kreia and Kae are one and the same. For starters, Kae went to war. --Fade 08:38, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * You may be right, I don't know enough about the game to be certain. I was just cleaning up the horrible cludge that was put here. QuentinGeorge 08:42, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Fair enough- I don't know enough to say for certain, either. Could somebody more knowledgable outline the arguement for it being Kae? Except that they both have white hair (although Kreia is in her late sixties at least) and both trained Revan at some point? --Fade 09:01, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Here:

'' Disciple: "As a Padawan, Revan was trained by Master Kae, before she was exiled. Strange, I do not recall who Revan's master was after that. And it is said that he went to his first - and final - master to learn how to leave the order entirely, as she had." ''

 Kreia: "He came to me, yes. Both before and after, before Revan knew himself. And after, in the times when Revan was coming into his own and learning he was more than he had been told. At one time, Revan was my Padawan. In times past, long ago. But Revan, when he had learned all he could, had other masters... that fool Zhar, and other Jedi on other planets. He learned from each. But in the end, he turned back to me. When he realized there was nothing more to be learned from the Jedi - except how one could leave them forever."

Kreia and Kae share the same gender and Padawan, and they were both exiled from the Jedi order. --Imperialles 09:10, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)

So what of the statements that Kae fought in the War and died there? Apparently Kreia talks to you about Kae after talking to the handmaiden enough times, what does she say about her? --Fade 10:32, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * No idea. It is interesting, however, that in sound files that were cut from the game for Master Lonna Vash, Lonna mentions that Kae accompanied her to Korriban. Therefore Kae and Kreia can't be the same person, if cut sound files are considered canon. --Imperialles 10:49, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * Very confusing. I think Kreia and Kae should be treated completely seperate, with an OOU mention of the possible link between the two in their articles, outlining what has been said here. Of course, Darth Traya shouldn't actually be an article, as it's a title, and is not really a different persona to Kreia --Fade 11:01, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * Well, I cleared the Kae article, and wrote a new stub about Kae. Now the Traya and Kreia pages need to be merged. --Imperialles 11:11, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * When Kreia reveals herself to the council, master Kavar makes clear that she fought in the mandalorian wars and was thought to be dead, just like Kae. No chance she didn't actually fight because she says she didn't die but became stronger for it, plus she knew in detail what happend on Malachor V when the mass shadow generator was activated, enough to despise Bao-Dur for that. --Jinger 10:37, 23 Aug 2005 (UTC)


 * Kae was exiled before or during the Mandalorian Wars, Kreia was exiled after so they would have to be different people. RushinSundaws 2:35, 23 Aug 2005 (UTC)
 * Both fought in the mandalorian wars and were thought to be dead, it seems obvius to me that they were exiled before they left, given that the Exile was the only one to come back and face judgement. --Jinger 19:49, 23 Aug 2005 (UTC)

I believe "Fall to the Dark Side" and "Kreia and the Jedi Exile" need to be revised:
 * 1) Since Kreia fought in the mandalorian wars and was thought to be dead, she couldn't possibly be exiled when and for the reasons she spoke of. Revan didn't took on the mantle of dark lord until the end of the mandalorian wars, and the Exile was the only one to face judgement
 * 2) Kreia clearly says that she "remained here to show others the way" while Revan left, she became Darth Traya not because she fell to the temptations of the Dark Side, it was "a sacrifice"
 * 3) It is revealed Kreia entered Trayus Accademy to study the echo the Exile created, not to look for Revan
 * 4) Kreia didn't meet the Exile by chance, she was looking for him, and the bond was her primary intention, not an accident--Jinger 15:02, 24 Aug 2005 (UTC)


 * Could a seperate page be created so that people can discuss whether Kreia and Kae are the same person. Hopefully there we could come to a conclusion. Jasca Ducato 08:45, 11 Sep 2005 (UTC)

Before the Exile confronts Atris..

''Atris: Kreia? that is not her name''

Arren Kae trained revan before she left for the mandalorian wars and was thought to be dead though her body was never found, Kreia was revan's last master. When the Exile meets the council on dantooine, master Kavar says to kreia

Kavar: I thought you had died in the mandalorian wars

''Kreia: Die? No - became stronger, yes''

Arren Kae was exiled about ten years later Brianna's birth, almost ten years have passed since the mandalorian wars began, assuming kreia is 50-60 and Brianna (aka Handmaiden) is 20, she could be her mother. Besides Kreia could know that much about the echani traditions (the handmaidens sharing similar features from the same father) and rituals (the intimacy and meaning of echani duels) because of Yusanis.

Before Brianna breaks her oath to Atris..

''Kreia: I knew her mother.. she left for the mandalorian wars after the shame of her birth was revealed''

''the Exile: Are you sure? I do not remember her''

The only way the Exile could forget one such close to Revan (Arren Kae was Revan's master) is that she made him forget. When the Exile asks kreia why the council never mentioned her..

the Exile: If the council cast you out, how come Atris and none of the jedi masters mentioned you?

Kreia: ..There are techniques in the force, where one can cloud the memory of others, make their presence so small as to be unnoticed

the Exile: Do you use that technique on me?

Kreia: No - but if i did, you would never know..


 * Well, kudos to the user who collected this evidence. Still, some clarification:
 * 1) "Kreia? This is not her name" may as well refer to Kreia's Sith identity of Darth Traya, which she had revealed to Atris a little earlier.
 * 2) "I do not remember her"... well, to no surprise, given that the Exile doesn't even remember Bao-Dur and many other people from the Mandalorian Wars. - Sikon 11:28, 6 Aug 2005 (UTC)


 * Well, yes but master Kae is not just from the mandalorian wars, she was a jedi master known to him long before, i mean she trained the most "popular" jedi knignt around, and she too made some noise of her own with her exile, her romance with the well known echani general Yusanis, and the birth of their child. Like Kae, Kreia too was to be well known to the Exile, she trained many who lost the way of the jedi or fallen to the dark side, and the council blamed her for that. The Exile did remember well Yusanis, yet he couldn't remember what of him that concerned Kae or their child. Master Kae left for the mandalorian wars when her crime was reveald but Brianna was already a teenager when this took place, yet Brianna couldn't remember her mother's face. The Exile used to live on Dantooine, Kreia and Kae were teachers in a jedi enclave not big enough to "hide" for long, yet he couldn't remember them... besides Kreia cleared her presence from the minds of the masters, from the mind of Mical, and had her reasons to do so to the Exile. --Jinger 17:00, 22 Aug 2005 (UTC)
 * Given how many teachers Revan had, I doubt Exile would remember every single one. And we know too little about Kae to judge how popular she was. Maybe she was a humble, elusive Jedi Master who may have never been to Dantooine as far as we know, never leaving her chamber on Coruscant... until the Mandalorian Wars, of course. - Sikon 00:57, 23 Aug 2005 (UTC)
 * But "exile is a rare sentence", isn't it? And surely the "shame" of a jedi, a master, having children is noisy enough too, isn't it? Yet these are nothing more than theories, let's be fair :) --Jinger 02:40, 23 Aug 2005 (UTC)

Its also possible she was the Handmaiden from this dialoge cut out of the game,

< if Exile male, to Handmaiden> Think. Think before you throw away your life for him. Think of everything you will lose by dying.Your lusts unfulfilled. A dance, unfinished. A love, requited. Think before you give it up so quickly.

Handmaiden: By putting my weapons down I will dishonor the Exile. I cannot dishonor the Exile anymore then I can dishonor the memory of my mother.

Kreia: Foolish words. Perhaps I could simply marr your face to show how foolish your clinging to a memory of her is. Or perhaps the truth would leave a greater wound...

Handmaiden: Your words are hollow Traya. Your lies will end here today. If not by my hand, then by the Exile's.

Kreia: Hollow? {[Kreia gives a wry smile]} Then know the truth and suffer for it. Arren Kae did not die at Malachor, or at least not in the way you believe... Look into your feelings...

Handmaiden: {[In despair]} No... it... {These last words are said in pure anguish} it cannot be...



Kreia: {[Gameplay Programmer: Kreia turns to Visas.]}And you, blind one, you have hungered to strike me down ever since you saw the bond the exile and I share.


 * This dialog was not cut, it is simply nonexistant. There are no dialog.tlk entries for it. I suppose you invented it. - Sikon [ Talk ] 05:36, 27 Dec 2005 (UTC)

Well sorry to burst your bubble but I didn't make it up. Do me a favor and go to this site, it has some of the cut out material. 
 * Yes, I understand, if it's on that site, it automatically should be true. But the fact remains: all conversation lines, even cut, are in dialog.tlk. If they are not, they don't exist in the game at all. I don't know where they got it from. In any case, putting original dialogue in the article is qualified as copyvio. - Sikon [ Talk ] 08:28, 31 Dec 2005 (UTC)

Vash
It was not Kae who was to accompany Vash, but Kaah, her Padawan. And not to Korriban, but to M4-78. - Sikon 11:28, 6 Aug 2005 (UTC)
 * Well, wasn't this the only reason Kreia couldn't possibly be Kae? Can we finally say that the chance of so many "strange coincidences" to occurr among the jedi is pretty weak?--Jinger 10:02, 23 Aug 2005 (UTC)
 * The opinion that Kreia can possibly be Kae doesn't make her Kae. You can bring as many "proofs" as you like, but as long as it isn't an officially confirmed fact, it can't be included into the article. - Sikon 12:43, 24 Aug 2005 (UTC)
 * Oh I agree, still I believe "Mistaken identity" lacks arguments. --Jinger 14:45, 24 Aug 2005 (UTC)

Revan, Kreia and the Exile
The Sith Lords has brought much light on Revan's actions, if Revan was born in the unknown regions, likely he knew of the real sith threat all along. Learning the jedi teachings, the sith teachings, and building his own armada was always his purpose, he needed the jedi, the mandalorian clans and the republic under his control to fight the sith.

When Kreia reveals herself to the council, master Kavar makes clear that she fought in the mandalorian wars and was thought to be dead, then she must have been exiled before, during the war, *before* Revan became the dark lord. Being his master she was likely very close to him till Malachor V and eventually "remained here to show others the way" while Revan (after the Jedi Civil War) left for the unknown regions. At this time she assumed the dark throne as darth Traya to continue the training of Revan's sith assassins and the "cleaning house" he started on Malachor (the assassination of the jedi not loyal to Revan). One of the tips that appear when you load or save a game clearly says that Kreia entered Trayus Accademy to study the echo the Exile created. When she was cast down by Sion and Nihilus, was forced to live without the force and experienced the terrifying potential of their power, she found her new purpose, the death of the force.

After the destruction of Peragus, Kreia and the Exile finally had time for talking and from their words..

the Exile- Care to explain how you tracked me down?

Kreia- You were difficult to find..

..we can assume she was *looking* for him (they didn't meet by chance). Before the war Kreia was a teacher on Dantooine, so (like the jedi masters and perhaps every jedi on Dantooine) she was likely well aware of his ability to easely form bonds, and when on Peragus she helped the Exile to feel the force again she knew there was a great chance that such a thing could make a bond. She needed this bond, and she needed it to be as much powerful as she could make it, so she trained him and made him more powerful than any she ever trained, because the more the bound jedi are strong in the force the deeper is the bond, and deeper is the wound when the bond is severed.

In the light of all this i don't think one could evenly say that any of them actually fell to the dark side...

Kreia- Perhaps i am neither, and i held both of what they are, pieces of a whole

''Kreia- Fall? ah, already you presume much. The difference between a fall and a sacrifice is difficult..''

Kreia- You are no sith, not truly - and it is for that that i love you

--Jinger 02:12, 23 Aug 2005 (UTC)

Does anybody have a quote of Kreia's 'predicton' of Jango Fett dying at Mace Windu's hands?
 * I think it was cut, part of the content that never made it into the final game, there is no such prediction in the story as it is.--Jinger 09:44, 23 Aug 2005 (UTC)
 * Yes there is. At the end, when you ask for predictions of Canderous and the Mandalorians. She says the Mandalorians will wither until they are just one man encased in armor, all too easily defeated by the Jedi. QuentinGeorge 09:46, 23 Aug 2005 (UTC)
 * Was that about Jango Fett? There is no mention of bounty hunters, clone armies or anything about him but mmm.. there is a great chance, yes, mostly because it is officially said that she did this prediction.--Jinger 10:17, 23 Aug 2005 (UTC)

Could be Boba too, couldn't it? After all, Jango didn't die easily at all... He killed many Jedi before he died at the battle of Geonosis... Boba, though, died pretty ridiculously during Luke's(a Jedi, after all) attack on Jabba's sailbarge. --200.217.22.210 13:26, 23 Aug 2005 (UTC)
 * She means Jango, if only for the fact that Boba isnt dead. Durnar 19:27, 23 Aug 2005 (UTC)

By the way, what were Kreia's other predictions? --Andrelvis 05:51, 24 Aug 2005 (UTC)
 * It wasn't cut. Actually, there are even two references to Jango Fett... The full list of predictions, at least those I'm aware of, is here. - Sikon 13:06, 24 Aug 2005 (UTC)

Thanks... a lot! =) --Andrettin 00:12, 26 Aug 2005 (UTC) She could be refering to either father or son, as one can be defeated without being killed (for instance,not to start a political disscussion, but just to make a point, Saddam is still alive, and just because someone has not shot him... yet, does not mean he wasn't defeated.)And I would be hard-pressed to be convinced that Boba wasn't defeated on Jabba's yacht, even in spite of the fact that he did survive.P.S. I cannot have a signature as I have not registered.


 * Kreia's predictions

Birth = c. 4025 BBY?
Source? - Sikon [ Talk ] 06:13, 2 Oct 2005 (UTC)

Cleanup?

 * Does this article really need to be cleaned up? It looks good to me. Hollis 04:47, 15 Nov 2005 (UTC)


 * It's probably some number someone came up and they thought it was reasonable (which IMO it is) DAWUSS 7:04, 30 Jan 2006

Quote
Even though the header quote is normally about a character, not by a character, I think that the old quote was not only more relevent, but also said more about the character herself. It told us things that the current quote does not, things about Kreia's past, motivations, and (to a certain extent) how she thinks. Therefore, I motion that the old quote be restored and the old quote either moved to a different section (possibly the section about her fall to the dark side), or else removed. Otherwise, perhaps the old quote can be put into the section about her fall to the dark side. Please give these suggestions some consideration, because I feel that inclusion of the old quote (as the article header, or a section header if that is not possible) would contribute in a very positive way to this article. - Angel Blue 451 19:26, 30 Nov 2005 (UTC)

Hoodless Kreia image
Is this a mod? If yes (and the original graphics are not present in the game), then it should be removed. - Sikon [ Talk ] 17:42, 10 Dec 2005 (UTC)
 * It isn't a mod. Its an original in-game model. All I did was add an extra animation to one of her dialouges.Redemption 01:17, 11 Dec 2005 (UTC)

Phrasing
"Later on in life, after she turned to the dark side, the abilities of her former profession complemented her place [as] a master schemer and a Sith Lord" (emphasis mine). That bolded part just reads wrong to me, even when the missing "as" is put in. I'm not sure how to rephrase it, though. - Lord Hydronium 23:40, 14 Jan 2006 (UTC)


 * Is it bad grammar? --Razzy1319 04:09, 15 Jan 2006 (UTC)
 * More like word choice. I get what it's trying to say, just the phrasing and choice of words seems wrong to me.  "abilities of her former profession": professions don't have abilities, people do, and I think it's referring to the traits she had that suited her to that profession anyway.  "complemented her place": I don't think something can complement one's place.  Possibly "role" instead.  Basically, the sentence says that those traits that suited her to her former profession made her adept at her new role as etc.  That's a bit too verbose, though, and I'm not sure how to say that more succinctly. - Lord Hydronium 04:24, 15 Jan 2006 (UTC)
 * Do you want to make it "...traits of her former profession, complemented her role" ? just change it. sounds better. --Razzy1319 04:33, 15 Jan 2006 (UTC)
 * OK, I rephrased it. That should get the same meaning across. - Lord Hydronium 04:40, 15 Jan 2006 (UTC)

Improvement for feature

 * Ok... so what needs to be done? --Razzy1319 07:19, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
 * For the starters, a better infobox image. - Sikon [ Talk ] 11:33, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Kae... again
I'm sorry, but
 * Furthermore, their names bear a distinct similarity. Kreia's name is pronounced as if it were an amalgam of the names "Kae" and "Traya." This is possibly in keeping with the character's personality. Given that she turned her back on both the Jedi Council and the Sith, instead embracing the Gray Philosophy, it is possible she combined her names to create a new one, much in the same way she combined both Light and Dark Side knowledges of the Force. The name similarities could, on the other hand, be striking coincidences.

is taking it way too far. Also, I don't remember
 * the confusion surrounding the events of Kae's death (no body was discovered)

to be mentioned anywhere in the game. - Sikon [ Talk ] 11:31, 1 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Talk about Kae to the Handmaiden. She says "No body was found."SithPower 12:13, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Image
All oppose, say nay. Redemption 23:14, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Both of these are too dark, only the face and hands are visible. - Sikon [ Talk ] 04:54, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Okay, here are the four I propose for the new image. - Redemption 20:01, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

What about Kreia's full body concept art with her holding a lightsaber?--Gonzalo84 01:05, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Quey'tek
During a conversation between Kreia and the Disciple, I've begun to wonder if she may be using Quey'tek, seeing how Disciple asks how long she had been there, the way Kreia replied sounds like she was hiding herself. I know its just speculation but it is a thought? User:RushinSundaws 2:42 pm, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Yoda was able to hide himself against Tyranus, even on the dark side planet Vjun. But it didnt state whether Yoda applied Quey'tek or not. Vos, Aayla & Tholme were all able to hide themselves pretty well too. I am not sure all "hideing in the Force" means Quey'tek. Darth Kevinmhk 04:03, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Exile and Fall
The article says that she was exiled after the Mandalorian Wars. But I don't think I ever heard this said in the game. Kavar said that he thought she'd died during that war, so this would lend itself to the thought that she was exiled during the war? Any thoughts? SithPower 11:21, May 6th, 2006
 * She was exiled, but definitely before the Mandalorian Wars, due to the said comment. - Sikon [ Talk ] 07:26, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Ok, I've gone back and fixed it. Just wanted to make sure.

lightsaber combat with the Force?
Forgive me, I haven't played KotOR II, and I don't understand how could Kreia/Darth Traya "wield three or more lightsabers in combat, holding each of them aloft with the Force, and having them fight with a will of their own"?? Can you PLEASE SHOW ME AN IMAGE OF KREIA USING THIS TECHNIQUE?? Axel Shan.
 * First off, shame on you for not playing KOTOR II (right now I can't blame you but that's not the point) Anyway, here you go. --Redemption 01:42, 16 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Also, you might want to check out the Telekinetic lightsaber combat article. 151.203.152.40 02:29, 16 May 2006 (UTC)


 * THANK YOU VERY MUCH!!!!! Axel Shan