Talk:Meetra Surik

Archives: 1 2 3 

Note
The lengthy discussions previously here have been put in the third archive. If you want to start a discussion, you may want to check one of the previous archives to see if your points have been raised already. If you want to start up a discussion complaining about the Exile being female: please do so on another site, unless you can find a genuinely new point and can do so without insulting other editors or the Lucasfilm people responsible for setting the female lightside Exile as canon. Thanks. &mdash;Silly Dan (talk) 15:25, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Exile is male i can prove it
The exile is male because it in a certin cut that is the one from dantioonie with the droid and fixing it, it even when a female charachter says "The exile cant be controlled, He was argueing with my padawan the other day"said vrook - Jaceb Scorn 18:51, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Any ways it doesnt matter that the exile is female but i piture him male
 * The Exile is female. Stop trying to prove otherwise. Give up before you start!Jasca Ducato Sith Council (Sith campaign)[[Image:SOFD.PNG|20px]] 19:29, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Ok but prove that hes female and ill give up, but dont take it from a guy who has problably never even played the game have a vote for male or female Exile Also the exile could have been unisex for all we know - Jaceb Scorn 12:46, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
 * If you'll check the article's "Behind the scenes" section, you'll note that the Exile has been set to female in The New Essential Guide to Droids. The end. &mdash;Silly Dan (talk) 12:52, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Not the end that not proof that some guy thinks he's the authority and says the exile is female thats not proof any ways maybe the exile was a unisex meaning he was both _ Jaceb Scorn 12:59, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
 * As far as Lucasfilm is concerned, the persons responsible for making the Exile female (Daniel Wallace, Leland Chee, etc.,) are the authorities. This does not mean heavily armed-Lucasfilm goons will seize your copy of KOTOR II for playing a male PC: it only means that all references to the character in the future will refer to her as a woman. Please check the previous archived talk pages for the various arguments which have already been made. &mdash;Silly Dan (talk) 13:05, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I summit but ill be back after i contact the Obsidian developers _ Jaceb Scorn 13:10, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Obsidian developers have no part in this. Because that's just what they are. Developers. They don't make the decisions. They made the Exile up to the choice of the player. Just as Bioware did for Revan. Funny how nobody raises any fuse about that. -- Redemption Talk [[Image:Oldrepublic.jpg|15px]] 13:15, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
 * that is kinda funny - Jaceb Scorn 13:23, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Jaceb, stop being petty and realise thet you are wrong. The Exile is female (as much as i hate it) and you can't change it. Jasca Ducato Sith Council (Sith campaign)[[Image:SOFD.PNG|20px]] 19:36, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I alreadly gave up what do you think "i summit" means - Jaceb Scorn 12:57, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
 * According to dictionary.com and Wiktionary, using "summit" as a verb means that you reached the top of a mountain. -- Darth Culator  (Talk) 14:04, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Padawan vs. Knight
''See also: archive discussion

I admit it can be rather ambiguous what the Exile's exact status was prior to the Mandalorian Wars, but the Disciple's background confession speaks quite a bit. Key bits boldened. Bear with it, if you would:

"If you are not chosen by a master when you have come of age, however... then the path of the Jedi is denied you. I met you on Dantooine, long ago, briefly. You taught us the ways of the Force, how to hear it sing within others, within the life around Dantooine. It is difficult to explain the difference between you and Master Vrook, but I think it is because he was knowledgeable, but not a leader, not a mentor. You were different &mdash; we could all feel it. And I knew that if I were to have a Master, I would want it to be you. And then you went to war. Many Jedi went to war, and the Jedi Masters proclaimed that you were Jedi no longer. Atris, the mistress of the archives, was first among them. I knew at that moment, that if you would no longer be a Jedi, then you must be correct. I realized I did not want to be a Jedi &mdash; instead, I wished to follow your path. And in any event, there was no one to train me, even if I wished it. They all went to war, as I grew past the age of acceptance."

- Mical

Disciple never mentions that Exile couldn't be his master because the Exile was still a Padawan; he says it was because the Exile and (according to him) anyone who could have been his master left to fight. He claims that the Exile was among those who taught prospective Jedi the ways of the Force, and he even compares the Exile to Master Vrook, as one comparing potential mentors. Also remember that taking a Padawan is not a prerequisite for being a Jedi Knight; it is a prerequisite for being a Jedi Master (I think). In any event, search the game. There is no mention of the Exile still being a Padawan when leaving for the wars, there is no mention of her master or master's reaction to her leaving, none of her not completing the trials, or anything of the sort. There is her affinity to forming Force Bonds with masters, but this only proves that she had already had several teachers before leaving, similar to the way Revan learned from many. For now, I'll put the old edits back up. -BaronGrackle 22:35, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

I was also under the assumption that the Exile never acsended to the rank of Jedi Knight. For one reason, because the Exile is never reguarded or acknowledged as Jedi Knight; either in any of her personal coversations, or any third party talks about her. And this discussion that takes place between a male-Exile and Brianna also seems interesting to contemplate:
 * Agreed; if the Exile had actually been just a Padawan, they would've made a mention to it somewhere in the game. If the Exile had been a Padawan she also would've been wearing Padawan robes at her trial, not full Jedi robes. Then there's that snarky comment the Exile makes to Kreia on Peragus about not treating like a Padawan. So people need to stop messing with the article; she's a Jedi Knight until someone can get an official source that says otherwise, period. Master Kavar 23:15, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Then there's that snarky comment the Exile makes to Kreia on Peragus about not treating like a Padawan. What/ Where?! When?!! - Sikon (Vacation) 05:12, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
 * It does mention in-game that the Exile wa a Padawan. Kreia mentions it at some point. As for the Snarky comment, it could well be that the Exile knows she is above the normal level of a Jedi Padawan and dispises being referred to as one. Who said that a padawan couldn't teach younglings (Which is what Mical most likely was) about the Force. It isn't an impossibility for a Padawan to be able to teach about the Force. Jasca Ducato Sith Council (Sith campaign)[[Image:SOFD.PNG|20px]] 10:27, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm fairly sure the game never calls the Exile a Padawan, and quite a few times they call her a Jedi Knight. If your certain about your claim, find and present an exact quote of them calling her such, anything else is just supposition. Master Kavar 19:54, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Who said that a padawan couldn't teach younglings (Which is what Mical most likely was) about the Force. Understand that I mean no sarcasm when I ask: really? Has this ever happened, where a Padawan would give younglings their first introduction to the Force instead of a Knight or a Master? Besides that, if you can remember the generic point when Kreia calls the Exile a Padawan, maybe the rest of us can help find it. Kreia does ramble on throughout the entire game, so it's easy to miss something. That being said... it could be that she just made a remark about when the Exile had been a Padawan, prior to the wars. No way to tell until we find it; it just seems that everything else in the storyline suggests she was already knighted. -BaronGrackle 14:22, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Brianna: "I have thought about what you have said, of my mother, of my bloodline. There is something I would ask of you."
 * Kreia: And so it ends.
 * Brianna: "I want you to teach me the ways of the Force. To become a Jedi Knight like my mother."
 * a PC choice is: "I... am not a Jedi Knight. Ask it of Atris."
 * to which Brianna then replies: "There is no one else I would want to train me. I have seen you in battle, I have seen your heart, and you are what I want to be. It is like a hollow place inside me, but when I am with you, the echo dies."

I just thought this was an interesting conversation to put forth. I know perfectly well that is not considered canon (with a male Exile), but Brianna's views of the Exile - even though he makes the comment that he is no Jedi Knight (either referring to never officially attaining the rank, or perhaps his exile from the Jedi Order) - seem to reflect perfectly those held by Mical.

Just wanted to point that out. However, if the canon Exile turns out to be a Jedi Knight, that's fine with me. It would explain her teaching at the Enclave a little better. Though, I must admit, I always assumed Mical was speaking about sparrs and ragtag instructions and not actuall classes taught by a Knight or Master. --Master Dakari 00:52, 28 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I'd like to point out that the Exile was a General during the Mandalorian Wars. That seems to be a pretty lofty rank for a padawan, don't you think? I believe that most evidence points to the exile being a full Knight, including the robes she wears when approaching the council in the cutscene and the fact that she posessed the high rank of General. The responsibilities placed on her shoulders during the time of the Mandalorian Wars would not be placed on a padawan. In response to the Exile's conversation with Handmaiden, it seems fair that he means that he is not part of the Order, simply because I doubt someone exiled from the Jedi would care much if he/she has a high enough rank in the Order to train someone. ---Ambrose- 14:33, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
 * The Exile was a General, yes. But unlike the Clone Wars where almost every single Jedi fought on the Republic's side; in the Mandalorian Wars only a handfull of Jedi entered. So positions would have been tight. Jasca Ducato Sith Council (Sith campaign)[[Image:SOFD.PNG|20px]] 13:55, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

About your comments, Ambrose, would you consider "Commander" quite a lofty position for a Padawan? If so, then you should know that by one of Palpatine's executive orders, that declared every Jedi Master a "High General", every Jedi Knight a "General", and every Jedi Padawan a "Commander". These titles were legally distributed to every member of the Jedi Order whether they accepted and used them or not. However, like Jasca Ducato said, during the Clone Wars, almost every Jedi was a participant. During the Mandalorian Wars, however, only a few of the Order defied the Council and climbed on board. Revan, who was only a Jedi Knight, was soon given supreme command over the Ruepublic's forces; which authority, according to your mode of thinking, should have gone to some Jedi Master who participated. Master Kae, maybe?

My point being: Revan recognized the skills and abilities of the Exile. Everyone did, even Vrook (who was jealous of the Exile, I dare say). Even HK-47 makes comments on how Revan saw the connections the Exile made with others, be they Force-sensitive or not, and also her strong affinity and attunement with the Force. Whether the Exile was a Padawan or Knight, Revan took advantage of her skills and made her a General.

Come to think of it, an advanced Padawan would - in some way - have a slight advantage over a well-trained soldier because of better discipline and the use of the Force. Look back at some of the back-handed remarks Kreia makes to the Mandalorians for proof of this.--Master Dakari 16:50, 28 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Point taken on both counts. However, on a note slightly more oriented toward the intentions of the developers, you'd think that if they intended to have made the Exile a Padawan they may have vested more time in the story discussing who the Exile's master was. As it stands, I don't think there's proof one way or the other as to the Exile's rank within the Order, though my impression is that she was a Knight. But again, there's no hard proof that I've seen indicating one way or the other. Nor do I think it's of much concern- the Exile's time in the Order before the Mandalorian wars is inconsequential, I think. It's her actions that took place during and after the wars which defined her, as well as her decision to fight in them in the first place. And once she defied the council and took on a sort of "Gray Jedi" status along with the rest of the Jedi who fought in the wars, her rank wouldn't make much of a difference would it? Just some things to think on. ---Ambrose- 18:11, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
 * This is in response to the Handmaiden dialogue above, where one choice is: "I... am not a Jedi Knight. Ask it of Atris." Throughout the game there are constant, numerous times when the Exile can respond with something along the lines of "I am not a Jedi" or "do not call me a Jedi anymore". The reason this specific choice says "Ask it of Atris" in the very next sentence is because of the whole subplot of Atris being the last Jedi versus the Exile being the last Jedi. -BaronGrackle 19:42, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
 * We're not discussing who is the last of the Jedi. We're discussing the Exile's rank when she was fighting in the Mandalorain Wars. Jasca Ducato Sith Council (Sith campaign)[[Image:SOFD.PNG|20px]] 09:38, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, exactly. WE'RE not discussing the last of the Jedi, but the Exile is discussing it when he has the chance to say "I... am not a Jedi Knight. Ask it of Atris." There's usually an option in the Exile's dialogue to make her (or him, in this case) accept her status as no longer being a Jedi, in many different conversations. You know... if it's really this big of an issue, we can just change the introductory sentence to refer to the Exile as a "Jedi"... without the preface Padawan, Knight, Master, or anything. Since she is never called any of these three, it could possibly be one of those things left open-ended... I and a few others have presumed that Knight is the default since no rank is mentioned, but perhaps that's just as presumptuous as presuming her to be Padawan. -BaronGrackle 21:38, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

BaronGrackle, I concurr with your suggestion. During the game, the Exile is never mentioned as being either of the three ranks. People keep alluding to the robes worn during the Exile's trial before the Council, declaring that she wore Jedi Knight robes. I stand to correct that they were Jedi Robes. Not padawan, knight, or master robes - just Jedi robes.

Also, let's keep in mind that the types of robes worn, by any one person, does not establish what rank that Jedi holds within the Order. Brianna wore her mother's robes. Her mother - Arren Kae - happened to be a Jedi Master, so her robes could possibly be considered Jedi Master robes. Simply because Brianna was wearing them, does this make her a Jedi Master? I hope none of you would say, "Yes".

Again, I second the idea to change the opening phrase to say, simply, "Jedi" with the ranking of such left out. Since it is never specifically mentioned in-game what position the Exile held within the Order before being exiled, it is not our place, as a source of grounded information, to assume one way or the other.--Master Dakari 01:36, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I concur with leaving the rank out of the article. It shall be done. Jasca Ducato Sith Council (Sith campaign)[[Image:SOFD.PNG|20px]] 08:01, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Agreed here. ---Ambrose- 12:24, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
 * When asking Kreia about the Mandalorians wars "But only some Jedi Knights answered the call...like I did." Coridan 21:38, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

When Kreia offers the Exile the three Jedi Master/Sith Lord classes, usually only a Knight would've been offered those choices. If the Exile was a Padawan, Keria would've had to train her to a Knight before she could even get to such a high staus, official or not. User:Jedi Striker:Jedi Striker 17:20, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Even if that was the case Strkier, it doesn't matter. Canon has not told us what rank the Exile was and so it shall be left out of the article. Jasca Ducato Sith Council (Sith campaign)[[Image:SOFD.PNG|20px]] 09:23, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I almost hate to post this, but it seems relevant:

Unfortunately, this excerpt does not help much as the Jedi Exile probably earned the rank of Jedi Knight during the war.– 09:40, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
 * It confirms the only known rank for the Exile was Padawan. And i dubt she was promoted during the war because she went against the wishes of the Council. They wouldn't reward someone for disobeying them would they (well, not these ones at least). Jasca Ducato Sith Council (Sith campaign)[[Image:SOFD.PNG|20px]] 10:16, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Overseen by Baas? Wasn't he, like, killed by Exar Kun? - Sikon (Vacation) 11:15, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Probs a type. It was overseen by Baas, before he was killed. Jasca Ducato Sith Council (Sith campaign)[[Image:SOFD.PNG|20px]] 11:46, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, bah. Padawan it is, then, I suppose, wrung from a website strung with typos. Even with the fact that Vodo-Siosk Baas was killed by Exar Kun, and the Exile was hardly the "single student" who joined Revan alone (as we see both in the Korriban vision and countless times in dialogue) the word is still as unmistakable as "heroine". Much thanks, Sentry; no need for another Exile controversy I suppose. :-) -BaronGrackle 14:04, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Well hang on a second, there's conflicting evidence here. Didn't anyone else read what Coridan wrote? "When asking Kreia about the Mandalorians wars "But only some Jedi Knights answered the call...like I did." Coridan 21:38, 30 August 2006 (UTC)". Again, I think it should be left out. I don't think there was considerable thought put into the Exile's rank when the game was being developed, since we can clearly see how it could be either one, and perhaps that indicates that it should be left out altogether. --Ambrose 16:23 1 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't mind either way. But Leland Chee has said that the Chronicles are canon, despite the number of mistakes they have. Any information in them that is contradicoty is automatically de-canonised, but the rest is Canon. The Exile is a padawna. Jasca Ducato Sith Council (Sith campaign)[[Image:SOFD.PNG|20px]] 16:41, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree that the Exile's rank should be left out. If you remember, the 'Chronicles' also state that Revan was a 'Jedi Master', which was plainly not true. I wouldn't trust the accuracy of the excerpt above as the Chronicles are full of minor inaccuracies and inconsistencies with the established continuity of the games. KOTOR II heavily implies that the Exile was a Jedi Knight during the war, but, as I said above, we simply cannot confirm if or when she reached that rank.– 21:00, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Name and Face
-- Redemption Talk 16:59, 27 August 2006 (UTC) appearance that is canonical? DAWUSS 16:45, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Does anyone know if a name for her is being considerd, and why does her face have to be obscured? If we were to vote on a face. I think the blond with the Samantha Carter hairstyle looked sexy.
 * Because it wouldn't be considered canon. We don't decide what's canon. -- Redemption Talk [[Image:Oldrepublic.jpg|15px]] 18:23, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
 * We can't vote on her face, the public don't decide what names and apperances are giving, thats not canon at all Jedi Dude 18:27, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
 * We shouldn't have the picture then. It's saying that the Exile was fighting a floating lightsaber at that exact position facing that exact direction. MPK 00:30, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I was just saying. Does LFL have any intention on giving her a name and an
 * Probably not. Anyways, something like Image:Manyfacesofrevan.jpg would probably be good. -LtNOWIS 00:42, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I think we should put a vote for her face... Let's just say the appearance would be conjectural, and as long as we have a note of it somewhere, it should be OK. Heck we have conjectural titles all over the place! Plus, having the face obscured looks awkward IMO DAWUSS 00:44, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, I am against the vote on the face. Perhaps a consensus track so people can vote whether or not to have a face should precede any vote on the actual face. If we remove the image, we must also remove the image of Jaden Korr. I don't think that is the best way to go. Besides, we know from the trial footage of the Exile that at some point she did wear Jedi Knight robes and wielded a cyan lightsaber, so the image is somewhat accurate- although I see your point. Atarumaster88 14:56, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
 * The many faces thing would be could with a female template in the gender section, however there cannot be a vote for her apperance we do not decide what is canon, its not conjectural having a false picture, not at all. The image is the best we can do and theres already an extensive discussion about the image further up. Jedi Dude 15:08, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
 * What if we use the Exile in the space suit (at Peragus) as the image? Everything's covered up in that. Face too. DAWUSS 16:28, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Because "it'd look awkward" and silly. -- Redemption Talk [[Image:Oldrepublic.jpg|15px]] 16:43, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
 * No more awkward and silly than we already have.
 * Then there's no point in changing it. - Redemption Talk [[Image:Oldrepublic.jpg|15px]] 16:59, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
 * (Points to my post a few lines up)MPK 18:34, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Well if the main page says she is known only by her nickname, then just saying that suggests that at sometime were supposed to know her real name. Otherwise why call the "Jedi Exile" a nickname?
 * Because she is a RPG character whose name is decided by the player.– 20:19, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
 * If I'm not mistaken I think Leeland CHee said that a name was being condidered. He said this back when he mentiond that they were going to try to make the Exile female. I just can't find the link.
 * Quite the contrary I'm afraid: – 20:19, 23 August 2006 (UTC)


 * For those who cannot/do not read the note at the top, please reference the archive. The topic about the picture was covered in great detail.  Here we go again. 21:43, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Protection
Do we still need this article to be protected? DAWUSS 13:41, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Defintely yes. There are still users who will change it to male. NKSCF 02:23, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

It doesn't really matter. If someone vandalizes it then we just revert it. MPK 14:42, 31 August 2006 (UTC)