Wookieepedia:Mofferences/Log/2019 January 6

[01:03:40]  Welcome, everyone, to Mofference 2019. [01:03:41]  Hey, drunk peoplehave rights too [01:03:44]  Admins, you will kindly shut up now [01:04:04]  Enjoy the silence, as it were https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m0AKJMGxwpE [01:04:14]  We will run through meeting instructions [01:04:20]  For some of you, this is old hat [01:04:28]  For others, it's your first taste of the Mofference [01:04:39]  Supreme Emperor will be hosting the meeting [01:04:52]  We will run through each item on the agenda one by one [01:05:00]  As we do, the person who is presenting the item will have the floor [01:05:12]  As they present their topic, everyone else will be muted like you are now [01:05:22]  Admins can't be muted, so we remind them to please remain quiet at that time [01:05:43]  Once the presenter is finished presenting, we will open up the floor to discussion and then, ideally, a final vote on that topic [01:05:55]  Voting is done via our resident bot, PurpleTentacle (thanks to GT) [01:06:08]  The commands are as follows, which SE will handle: [01:06:10]  ~open [01:06:10] <PurpleTentacle> Toprawa: Voting is open. [01:06:12] <Toprawa> ~support [01:06:13] <PurpleTentacle> Toprawa: Support vote counted. [01:06:15] <Toprawa> ~close [01:06:15] <PurpleTentacle> Toprawa: Voting is closed. [01:06:16] <PurpleTentacle> Toprawa: Support: 1 [01:06:19] <Toprawa> ~tally [01:06:19] <PurpleTentacle> Toprawa: 'Support': 1 [01:06:30] <Toprawa> You will vote using the following commands and the ONLY the following commands: [01:06:31] <Toprawa> ~support [01:06:31] <PurpleTentacle> Toprawa: There is no open vote on this channel. [01:06:36] <Toprawa> ~oppose [01:06:37] <PurpleTentacle> Toprawa: There is no open vote on this channel. [01:06:45] <Toprawa> Anything else, I don't think the bot will record your vote [01:06:51] <Toprawa> If the bot doesn't record it, your vote will NOT be counted [01:07:05] <Toprawa> Everyone is reminded to please stay on topic during each item [01:07:12] <Toprawa> Those who don't will be removed from the meeting [01:07:16] <Toprawa> I think that's it [01:07:20] <Toprawa> SE, the floor is yours [01:07:24] <Supreme_Emperor> Thank you Tope [01:07:31] <Supreme_Emperor> Welcome everyone to Mofference 2019 [01:07:41] (off-topic chatter is welcome in #wookieepedia-social) [01:07:45] <Supreme_Emperor> Without further delay, let us begin [01:07:57] <Supreme_Emperor> Our first topic of the evening goes to Tope [01:08:00] <Supreme_Emperor> The floor is yours [01:08:01] <Toprawa> Thank you [01:08:08] <Toprawa> The future of the Official Friends program [01:08:28] <Toprawa> Everyone will remember the incident with Rebel Force Radio: https://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Wookieepedia:Official_Friends_of_Wookieepedia/Archive#Rebel_Force_Radio_.2816.2F0.2F0.29 [01:08:48] <Toprawa> This was an embarrassing and unfortunate spectacle that we should never have to be part of again [01:09:17] <Toprawa> It really opened my eyes, for one, to the negative ramifications of what it means to maintain "official friendships" with other groups and websites [01:09:41] <Toprawa> What would have happened if we didn't have this vote out of simple ignorance of the situation or somehow had voted to keep? [01:09:49] <Toprawa> Then our reputation suffers needlessly as a result [01:10:14] <Toprawa> We shouldn't ever have to worry about what other websites are doing or, conversely, whether what we're doing will upset our "official friends" [01:10:25] <Toprawa> We owe loyalty to no one but ourselves [01:10:32] <Toprawa> At this point, the Official Friends program is rarely used [01:10:45] <Toprawa> In the past 10 years, we've had 5 successful nominations [01:10:50] <Toprawa> Two of those, including RFR, have since been removed [01:10:55] <Toprawa> The other 3 are all FANDOM wikis [01:11:25] <Toprawa> We can continue maintaining official relationships with other wikis without the inherent political risk that comes with being "friends" with external websites [01:12:04] <Toprawa> Whatever benefit there is to keeping the Official Friends program has been grossly outweighed by the potential PR nightmare that comes with being even remotely involved in another RFR-like incident [01:12:16] <Toprawa> So all of this spiel aside, I am proposing we retire the Official Friends program [01:12:26] <Toprawa> What will happen if we do? [01:12:35] <Toprawa> A) We delete all Official Friends pages except for the archive page [01:13:02] <Toprawa> B) We politely inform our current OFs who link to us that we are retiring the program and will no longer be promoting their websites on our Main Page [01:13:14] <Toprawa> We thank them for their friendship and move on, etc. [01:13:20] <Toprawa> SE, you may open the floor [01:13:28] * ecks sets mode -m on #wookieepedia [01:13:32] <Supreme_Emperor> Thank you Tope [01:13:33] <Toprawa> Oops, ecks, sorry [01:13:48] Tope raises some good points here [01:13:52] <Supreme_Emperor> Please discuss everyone, and please remain on topic\ [01:13:59] how do we benefit from keeping a list of websites on our main page? [01:14:11] <Fan26> Two of the official friends wikis aren't  even actually active anymore [01:14:13] aside from maybe swfans, we don't really cooperate in any way with any of our official friends [01:14:17] <IFYLOFD> I've always seen the Official Friends as a relic of 2006, 2007-era Wookieepedia [01:14:30] I wouldn't necessarily be opposed to linking other websites if we worked intimately with them [01:14:31] <IFYLOFD> I don't think it really provides anyone with any real value [01:14:32] <Supreme_Emperor> The ramifications of a bad incident are far reaching. A single incident can haunt us for years [01:14:35] <Culator|Away> On the rare occasions someone posts a nomination, it's usually a tiny site that wants to sponge publicity off us. [01:14:48] <Supreme_Emperor> It was a cool idea back in the day [01:14:51] <DarthRuiz30> its easier for us to not have them there [01:14:58] <Lewisr> Time to cut ties and move on, doesn't seem to benefit much [01:15:06] <Tommy-Macaroni> Kinda pointlsss in modern times [01:15:10] Yeah, I don't really see the point of having these. [01:15:14] <Fan26> Probably won't even need to message them that we're taking it down [01:15:35] less text on the main pageis good too [01:15:35] <Imperators> would be polite tho [01:15:39] <Ayrehead02> We should definitely message just to be polite, no point in burning bridges without reason [01:15:59] <Ayrehead02> But yeah the program is definitely no longer needed [01:16:02] <Fan26> There's no one left to message on some, but I see your point [01:16:14] <Toprawa> Some websites do link to Wookieepedia still [01:16:23] <Toprawa> It would be polite to inform them that we're no longer reciprocating [01:16:32] nod [01:16:45] <Supreme_Emperor> Ok, let us proceed to voting [01:16:50] <Supreme_Emperor> ~open [01:16:50] <PurpleTentacle> Supreme_Emperor: Voting is open. [01:16:55] ~support RIP [01:16:55] <Supreme_Emperor> ~support [01:16:55] <PurpleTentacle> ecks: Support vote counted. [01:16:56] <PurpleTentacle> Supreme_Emperor: Support vote counted. [01:16:57] <Lewisr> ~support [01:16:57] <PurpleTentacle> Lewisr: Support vote counted. [01:17:01] <Ayrehead02> ~support [01:17:01] <PurpleTentacle> Ayrehead02: Support vote counted. [01:17:02] <Cwedin> ~support [01:17:02] <PurpleTentacle> Cwedin: Support vote counted. [01:17:02] <IFYLOFD> ~support [01:17:03] <Fan26> ~support [01:17:03] <CorellianPremier> ~support [01:17:03] <PurpleTentacle> IFYLOFD: Support vote counted. [01:17:03] <PurpleTentacle> Fan26: Support vote counted. [01:17:03] <PurpleTentacle> CorellianPremier: Support vote counted. [01:17:04] ~support [01:17:04] <PurpleTentacle> grunny: Support vote counted. [01:17:06] <AnilSerifoglu> ~support [01:17:06] <PurpleTentacle> AnilSerifoglu: Support vote counted. [01:17:09] ~support [01:17:09] <PurpleTentacle> exiledjedi: Support vote counted. [01:17:10] <Toprawa> ~support [01:17:10] <DarthRuiz30> ~support [01:17:10] <PurpleTentacle> Toprawa: Support vote counted. [01:17:10] <PurpleTentacle> DarthRuiz30: Support vote counted. [01:17:11] <Culator|Away> ~support [01:17:11] <PurpleTentacle> Culator|Away: Support vote counted. [01:17:21] <Imperators> ~support [01:17:21] <PurpleTentacle> Imperators: Support vote counted. [01:17:32] <Supreme_Emperor> ~close [01:17:32] <PurpleTentacle> Supreme_Emperor: Voting is closed. [01:17:32] <PurpleTentacle> Supreme_Emperor: Support: 15 [01:17:34] <Supreme_Emperor> ~tally [01:17:34] <PurpleTentacle> Supreme_Emperor: 'Support': 15 [01:17:40] <Tommy-Macaroni> ~support [01:17:40] <PurpleTentacle> Tommy-Macaroni: There is no open vote on this channel. [01:17:43] <Tommy-Macaroni> Oh [01:17:47] <Supreme_Emperor> Motion to retire the official friends program passes [01:17:51] * ecks sets mode +m on #wookieepedia [01:17:56] <Supreme_Emperor> Thank you everyone [01:18:04] <Supreme_Emperor> For our second item, Tope again has the floor [01:18:09] <Toprawa> Thank you, SE [01:18:18] <Toprawa> Sub-pages of inactive users [01:18:47] <Toprawa> We voted a few Mofferences ago, I believe, to place the Inactive template on users who have not made a mainspace edit in 12 months [01:19:09] <Toprawa> As part of doing that, we began redirecting inactive users' subpages to their mainpage [01:19:31] <Toprawa> This is a good plan, but we never really official ratified that practice, which I feel like we should do if we're going to be trampling on people's personal pages [01:19:39] <Toprawa> I am proposing the following: [01:19:56] <Toprawa> 1) Inactive users' subpages will officially be redirected to their userpage [01:20:19] <Toprawa> 2) Inactive users will have their redirected subpages deleted after 3 years of inactivity [01:20:25] <Toprawa> To the floor [01:20:28] * ecks sets mode -m on #wookieepedia [01:20:30] <Supreme_Emperor> Thank you Tope [01:20:35] <Supreme_Emperor> Floor is open for discussion [01:20:38] I'm honestly not sure if I see the point with item 2 [01:20:41] <Supreme_Emperor> Kindly remain on topic [01:20:45] <Imperators> I wouldn't support point 2 [01:20:46] we're not short on storage [01:20:49] <Darth_Culator> Deleting them seems unnecessary. [01:20:51] redirects are cheap, as they say [01:20:58] <Imperators> even if just for personal reasons [01:21:05] <Toprawa> Even when someone has literally 50 subpages? [01:21:05] <Darth_Culator> It skews the user / mainspace contrib proporrions. [01:21:07] <CorellianPremier> Yeah, deleting seems excessive [01:21:08] <Toprawa> Like Cade? [01:21:08] <Imperators> yes [01:21:09] <Darth_Culator> *proportions [01:21:23] <Supreme_Emperor> Wikia has no shortage of storage [01:21:32] <Toprawa> No doubt, but there's also little point to keeping them [01:21:45] <Toprawa> You're just keeping them for the sake of keeping them [01:21:47] <Imperators> (I guess item 1 is a no-brainer) [01:21:47] <Fan26> There's a reason userpages themselves aren't deleted after a certain period of time, even when there's no point there [01:21:57] <Darth_Culator> https://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Wookieepedia:Voting_eligibility_policy#Productivity_requirement [01:21:57] Or you're deleting them for the sake of deleting them [01:22:06] <Darth_Culator> This requires a specific number of user to main edits. [01:22:13] <Toprawa> It's deleting them for the sake of clearing up old, unused crap [01:22:14] <Darth_Culator> Delete subpages, instant productivity boost. [01:22:16] <Toprawa> But whatever [01:22:20] <Toprawa> If you guys want to keep crap, keep them :P [01:22:27] <Toprawa> I'm not lawyering this one [01:22:29] I'd say it's keeping them so people don't spend time deleting them [01:22:31] <Imperators> I want to keep MY crap :P [01:22:35] per grunny, as well [01:22:38] redirect and forget [01:22:38] <IFYLOFD> Yeah, I honestly don't see the real need to delete them, but I'm in favor of point 1 [01:22:46] also then there's the hassle of restoring them if they return, too [01:22:51] <Imperators> ^ [01:22:52] <Toprawa> I'll never understand why we keep half of the archive stuff we do [01:22:56] <Toprawa> But whatever [01:23:02] <DarthRuiz30> ^agree with floyd [01:23:02] yeah, I don't think anyone is opposed to item 1 here [01:23:08] <Darth_Culator> Yeah, point 1 sould deffo be codified. [01:23:13] <Ayrehead02> Agreed [01:23:16] <Fan26> I use Cade's supages for TOR edits a lot, so my view may be colored here, but I see no point in deleting. #1 has my vote though [01:23:20] <Imperators> ^ [01:23:22] * Darth_Culator should stop drinking now. [01:23:27] <Supreme_Emperor> I'll split this into two votes then [01:23:28] Per Tope, but I don't feel like arguing the point. [01:23:34] <Imperators> actually, extremely per Fan26 just now [01:23:44] <Imperators> some subpages are valuable [01:23:50] <CorellianPremier> yep [01:23:50] <Toprawa> Their content is [01:23:53] <Toprawa> The subpage itself isn't [01:23:58] <Supreme_Emperor> For point one, Inactive users' subpages will officially be redirected to their userpage [01:24:00] <Toprawa> You can move it to your own freaking subpage if you want to keep it :P [01:24:07] <Supreme_Emperor> I will now open voting on item one [01:24:07] <Supreme_Emperor> Inactive users' subpages will officially be redirected to their userpage [01:24:08] <Toprawa> But again, I'm not arguing [01:24:10] <Toprawa> You guys like being hoarders, fine :P [01:24:13] <Supreme_Emperor> ~open [01:24:13] <PurpleTentacle> Supreme_Emperor: Voting is open. [01:24:14] so what's the net gain there? one subpage deleted, another created [01:24:19] <Supreme_Emperor> ~support [01:24:19] <CorellianPremier> ~support [01:24:19] <PurpleTentacle> Supreme_Emperor: Support vote counted. [01:24:20] <PurpleTentacle> CorellianPremier: Support vote counted. [01:24:20] ~support item 1 [01:24:20] <PurpleTentacle> ecks: Support vote counted. [01:24:20] <Darth_Culator> ~support [01:24:20] <Ayrehead02> ~support [01:24:21] <PurpleTentacle> Ayrehead02: Support vote counted. [01:24:21] <PurpleTentacle> Darth_Culator: Support vote counted. [01:24:21] <Lewisr> ~support [01:24:21] <DarthRuiz30> ~support [01:24:22] <PurpleTentacle> Lewisr: Support vote counted. [01:24:22] <PurpleTentacle> DarthRuiz30: Support vote counted. [01:24:22] <Toprawa> ~support [01:24:22] <PurpleTentacle> Toprawa: Support vote counted. [01:24:24] <Imperators> ~support [01:24:24] <PurpleTentacle> Imperators: Support vote counted. [01:24:24] <Tommy-Macaroni> ~support [01:24:24] <Cwedin> ~support [01:24:25] <PurpleTentacle> Tommy-Macaroni: Support vote counted. [01:24:25] <PurpleTentacle> Cwedin: Support vote counted. [01:24:25] ~support [01:24:25] <PurpleTentacle> grunny: Support vote counted. [01:24:25] ~support [01:24:26] <PurpleTentacle> exiledjedi: Support vote counted. [01:24:28] <IFYLOFD> ~support [01:24:28] <PurpleTentacle> IFYLOFD: Support vote counted. [01:24:30] <AnilSerifoglu> ~support [01:24:31] <PurpleTentacle> AnilSerifoglu: Support vote counted. [01:24:33] <Fan26> ~support [01:24:33] <PurpleTentacle> Fan26: Support vote counted. [01:24:44] <Supreme_Emperor> ~close [01:24:44] <PurpleTentacle> Supreme_Emperor: Voting is closed. [01:24:44] <PurpleTentacle> Supreme_Emperor: Support: 16 [01:24:46] <Supreme_Emperor> ~tally [01:24:46] <PurpleTentacle> Supreme_Emperor: 'Support': 16 [01:24:53] <Supreme_Emperor> Motion one, Inactive users' subpages will officially be redirected to their userpage passes [01:25:08] <Toprawa> You don't need to vote on 2 [01:25:15] <Toprawa> I redact the proposal [01:25:18] <Supreme_Emperor> Alright cool [01:25:26] <Supreme_Emperor> In that case, we move on to number 3 on the agends [01:25:28] * ecks sets mode +m on #wookieepedia [01:25:29] <Supreme_Emperor> agenda [01:25:37] <Supreme_Emperor> EJ, you have the floor [01:25:43] Cool, thanks SE. [01:26:10] While going through the WOTC articles, I noticed the following rule in the layout guide: [01:26:22] If only an item's publication month and/or year are known, place that item at the end of the month or year. Example: If Source A was published on March 15, 2005 and Source B's publication date is only known as March 2005, list Source A first. [01:27:06] A lot of the older RPG sourcebooks / material just has Month / Year. [01:27:31] But the WOTC articles frequently confirm a source to be released. [01:28:02] So you will have an article on December 15th confirming that a source was released. [01:28:30] But as far as the release date for that source goes, we only have a confirmed date of December. [01:28:43] I propose the following: [01:29:24] However, if an item with only a known publication month and/or year is confirmed to be released by another source with the same publication month and/or year, but with a known publication date, place the first item at the date that the second source was released. Example: If Source A was published in December 2018, but Source B was published on December 15, 2018 and includes confirmation that Source A was released, then [01:29:24] list Source A as if its publication date was December 15, 2018 and before Source B. [01:29:38] This would be added to the layout guide. [01:30:12] It just doesn't make sense to list a sourcebook after its additional content in the sources section. [01:30:26] I return the floor for discussion. [01:30:29] <Supreme_Emperor> Thank you EJ [01:30:30] * ecks sets mode -m on #wookieepedia [01:30:34] <Supreme_Emperor> Floor is open for discussion [01:30:34] <Imperators> example pls [01:31:15] One moment... [01:31:40] <Toprawa> EJ explained this to me already, FWIW. It's logical. [01:31:55] yeah, seems straightforward to me [01:32:05] <IFYLOFD> Yeah, this seems fine [01:32:06] <Supreme_Emperor> I personally see no issues with this [01:32:11] <Darth_Culator> What if you have an article like https://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Starship_Battles_Preview_1 that explicitly precedes the printed source. [01:32:11] <Tommy-Macaroni> Cool [01:32:35] This rule wouldn't affect that. [01:32:55] Because they are listed at the end by default. [01:33:00] <Toprawa> The point here is to just list them in correct order [01:33:07] <Supreme_Emperor> Seems quite logical [01:33:48] <Supreme_Emperor> I will now be opening voting on this proposal [01:33:50] <Supreme_Emperor> However, if an item with only a known publication month and/or year is confirmed to be released by another source with the same publication month and/or year, but with a known publication date, place the first item at the date that the second source was released. Example: If Source A was published in December 2018, but Source B was published on December 15, 2018 and includes confirmation that Source A was [01:33:50] <Darth_Culator> K, as long as we're strict about the " includes confirmation that Source A was released" part. [01:33:50] <Supreme_Emperor> released, then [01:33:56] <Supreme_Emperor> list Source A as if its publication date was December 15, 2018 and before Source B. [01:33:56] This preview states that the sourcebook was released: [01:34:02] <Supreme_Emperor> ~open [01:34:02] <PurpleTentacle> Supreme_Emperor: Voting is open. [01:34:07] nvm [01:34:07] <Supreme_Emperor> ~support [01:34:07] <PurpleTentacle> Supreme_Emperor: Support vote counted. [01:34:08] <Ayrehead02> ~support [01:34:09] <PurpleTentacle> Ayrehead02: Support vote counted. [01:34:10] <Lewisr> ~support [01:34:10] <PurpleTentacle> Lewisr: Support vote counted. [01:34:10] ~support [01:34:10] <PurpleTentacle> exiledjedi: Support vote counted. [01:34:12] <CorellianPremier> ~support [01:34:12] <IFYLOFD> ~support [01:34:13] <PurpleTentacle> CorellianPremier: Support vote counted. [01:34:13] <PurpleTentacle> IFYLOFD: Support vote counted. [01:34:13] <AnilSerifoglu> ~support [01:34:13] ~support [01:34:14] <PurpleTentacle> AnilSerifoglu: Support vote counted. [01:34:14] <PurpleTentacle> grunny: Support vote counted. [01:34:15] <Cwedin> ~support [01:34:16] <PurpleTentacle> Cwedin: Support vote counted. [01:34:16] <Toprawa> ~support [01:34:16] <PurpleTentacle> Toprawa: Support vote counted. [01:34:19] <Fan26> ~support [01:34:19] <PurpleTentacle> Fan26: Support vote counted. [01:34:20] ~support [01:34:20] <PurpleTentacle> ecks: Support vote counted. [01:34:22] <DarthRuiz30> ~support [01:34:22] <PurpleTentacle> DarthRuiz30: Support vote counted. [01:34:57] <Supreme_Emperor> ~close [01:34:57] <PurpleTentacle> Supreme_Emperor: Voting is closed. [01:34:57] <PurpleTentacle> Supreme_Emperor: Support: 13 [01:35:13] <Supreme_Emperor> ~tally [01:35:13] <PurpleTentacle> Supreme_Emperor: 'Support': 13 [01:35:18] <Supreme_Emperor> Motion passes [01:35:41] <Supreme_Emperor> For our fourth point of the evening [01:35:47] * ecks sets mode +m on #wookieepedia [01:35:51] <Supreme_Emperor> EJ has the floor again [01:36:19] Okay, this one also has to with appearances / sources. [01:36:21] *to do [01:36:36] We have a lot of inconsistency with how we format and use Template:C for highlighting sources that use alternate names for a subject. [01:36:52] https://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Model_434_blaster_pistol [01:37:18] I'm just going to use this article as an example of the what I am referring to. [01:37:26] • Galladinium's Fantastic Technology (As "Model 434 DeathHammer") [01:37:26] • Star Wars: The Complete Visual Dictionary (As "Tatooine gunman's blaster") [01:37:55] The style / usage of those comments is very erratic / inconsistent. [01:38:15] The first area of inconsistency is with the format. I have seen the following formats used a lot: [01:38:15] [01:38:15]  [01:38:15]  [01:38:15]  [01:39:00] They also seem to be used in some cases where the name in the source matches the Wookieepedia article title. [01:39:11] I propose to create Template:ID, which will be used in place of using Template:C for highlighting sources / appearances where alternate names are used. [01:40:15] So there are two points with this proposal. I'd like to discuss the formatting / creating a template for this before I get to part two. [01:40:29] I release the floor for discussion of part 1. [01:40:40] <Supreme_Emperor> Thank you EJ [01:40:46] <Supreme_Emperor> Floor is now open for discussion [01:40:56] * ecks sets mode -m on #wookieepedia [01:41:07] seems good to standardize this [01:41:11] The template will essentially be the same as Template:C except all you pass in are the alternate name(s). [01:41:13] <AnilSerifoglu> Agreed [01:41:13] template everything is my motto [01:41:21] Separated by commas. [01:41:23] <Supreme_Emperor> Makes total sense [01:41:27] <Ayrehead02> Makes perfect sense to me [01:41:29] <IFYLOFD> So if we're choosing a format for this, I'd favor the template [01:41:38] <Darth_Culator> TEMPLATE ALL THE THINGS [01:41:41] per Floyd [01:41:48] <IFYLOFD> I'm very much on board with standardizing this [01:41:53] <Toprawa> I'm in favor of [01:41:54] <Toprawa> Why? [01:41:56] <Supreme_Emperor> Standardizing is good [01:41:57] <Toprawa> It matches [01:42:06] My personal preference for the format is as Basic, since it is consistent with Template:1stID. [01:42:12] <Toprawa> 1st doesnt use quotes, so ID shouldn't either [01:42:15] <IFYLOFD> I mean, that's fine [01:42:21] you mean 1stID? [01:42:22] <IFYLOFD> I'm not gonna argue [01:42:23] <Ayrehead02> Agreed [01:42:29] <Darth_Culator> lowercase 'as' looks cleaner [01:42:35] <Toprawa> per Culator [01:42:36] <Imperators> per Culator [01:42:41] <Supreme_Emperor> ^ [01:42:42] yeah but all other templates use uppercase [01:42:47] <Toprawa> So what? [01:42:48] <Imperators> fuck other templates [01:42:50] <Toprawa> It looks cleaner :P [01:42:56] <Supreme_Emperor> Per Imp XD [01:43:03] <Tommy-Macaroni> Per someone [01:43:14] <Supreme_Emperor> We seem to be in agreement [01:43:23] if we're going to have internal consistency, shouldn't we aim for consistency between different Appearances templates too? [01:43:32] <Darth_Culator> so fix them [01:43:39] <Darth_Culator> start here. lowercase as. [01:43:39] <Toprawa> The capitalization isn't necessary [01:43:42] I don't necessarily oppose making them all lowercase [01:43:48] <Toprawa> It's logical to capitalize "First identified as" [01:43:49] <Supreme_Emperor> That's a different discussion altogether [01:43:54] <Toprawa> It's uglier to say "first identified as" [01:44:01] "uglier" in what way? [01:44:04] <Toprawa> There doesn't need to be consistency if it's logical to be non-consistent [01:44:09] <Darth_Culator> 'first identified as' is a sentence. [01:44:14] <Imperators> ^ [01:44:17] yeah, the other templates are usually kinda independent sentences "First appearance." This one is kind of a continuation, so "As ..." would look weird [01:44:19] <Darth_Culator> 'as' by itself is not. [01:44:25] <Darth_Culator> ^ [01:44:56] Yeah, that was my logic as well. [01:44:57] <Supreme_Emperor> We will now vote on part one of this proposal, the creation of a Template:ID [01:45:02] So, part 1 is for the following: Create a template:ID with the format: as subject name. [01:45:05] (Picture only) isn't a sentence either [01:45:08] but I digres [01:45:09] s [01:45:15] <Supreme_Emperor> Voting for part one is now open [01:45:16] <Supreme_Emperor> ~open [01:45:17] <PurpleTentacle> Supreme_Emperor: Voting is open. [01:45:21] <Supreme_Emperor> ~support [01:45:21] <Darth_Culator> ~support [01:45:21] <PurpleTentacle> Supreme_Emperor: Support vote counted. [01:45:21] <Imperators> ~support [01:45:21] <PurpleTentacle> Darth_Culator: Support vote counted. [01:45:21] <PurpleTentacle> Imperators: Support vote counted. [01:45:22] <AnilSerifoglu> ~support [01:45:22] <GreenTentacle> ~support [01:45:22] <PurpleTentacle> AnilSerifoglu: Support vote counted. [01:45:22] <PurpleTentacle> GreenTentacle: Support vote counted. [01:45:23] <Lewisr> ~support [01:45:24] <PurpleTentacle> Lewisr: Support vote counted. [01:45:24] ~support [01:45:24] <PurpleTentacle> ecks: Support vote counted. [01:45:24] ~support [01:45:25] <PurpleTentacle> exiledjedi: Support vote counted. [01:45:26] <CorellianPremier> ~support [01:45:26] <DarthRuiz30> ~support [01:45:26] <PurpleTentacle> CorellianPremier: Support vote counted. [01:45:27] <PurpleTentacle> DarthRuiz30: Support vote counted. [01:45:27] <Ayrehead02> ~support [01:45:27] <PurpleTentacle> Ayrehead02: Support vote counted. [01:45:28] ~support [01:45:28] <PurpleTentacle> grunny: Support vote counted. [01:45:30] <Fan26> ~support [01:45:30] <PurpleTentacle> Fan26: Support vote counted. [01:45:33] <Cwedin> ~support [01:45:33] <PurpleTentacle> Cwedin: Support vote counted. [01:45:34] <Toprawa> ~support [01:45:34] <PurpleTentacle> Toprawa: Support vote counted. [01:45:57] <Supreme_Emperor> ~close [01:45:57] <PurpleTentacle> Supreme_Emperor: Voting is closed. [01:45:57] <PurpleTentacle> Supreme_Emperor: Support: 15 [01:45:58] <Tommy-Macaroni> ~support [01:45:59] <PurpleTentacle> Tommy-Macaroni: There is no open vote on this channel. [01:46:00] <Supreme_Emperor> ~tally [01:46:00] <PurpleTentacle> Supreme_Emperor: 'Support': 15 [01:46:06] <IFYLOFD> !support [01:46:10] <IFYLOFD> Shit [01:46:10] <Supreme_Emperor> Motion one passes [01:46:14] <Supreme_Emperor> EJ, you have the floor [01:46:25] * ecks sets mode +m on #wookieepedia [01:46:45] Okay, part two is related to when the template should be used. [01:47:33] In my opinion, the template should be used when alternate names are used except in the following situations: [01:48:41] If the subject is referred to by the actual Wookieepedia article title and an alternate name. [01:49:03] If Template:1stID is being used. [01:50:13] On articles with completely conjectural titles i.e. (Unidentified individuals) [01:50:35] On character articles that are referred to by a shortened version of their name. (i.e. Jek Porkins vs. Jek Tono Porkins) [01:51:15] The last one could start getting really out-of-hand if we required that. [01:51:53] I guess all of this (if passed) would go somewhere in the layout guide, but it applies equally to appearances and sources, so I'm not sure where it would go. [01:52:22] There might also be other situations where it shouldn't be used. Feel free to discuss. [01:52:25] * ecks sets mode -m on #wookieepedia [01:52:27] I release the floor. [01:52:29] <Supreme_Emperor> Thank you EJ [01:52:33] <Ayrehead02> So would every Anakin Skywalker source that only refers to him as Darth Vader need one of these? [01:52:35] <Supreme_Emperor> Floor is now open for discussion [01:52:40] <Imperators> FWIW, here's a 2017 GA with the template used/not used https://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Anti-Riot_Tangle_Gun_7#Behind_the_scenes [01:53:17] <Imperators> good point, Ayre [01:53:31] <Supreme_Emperor> I would imagine since it applies to both appearances and sources we could simply list it in both applicable sections of the LG [01:53:47] <Fan26> Per SE [01:53:52] ~support [01:53:52] <PurpleTentacle> ecks: There is no open vote on this channel. [01:53:55] er [01:53:57] Ayre, maybe, but I'm not sure where we would draw the line. [01:53:59] how did that happen [01:54:16] <IFYLOFD> Yeah, that was my first thought [01:54:17] We have to do this fairly consistently. [01:54:37] And it should theoretically apply to large and small articles. [01:54:56] <Supreme_Emperor> Individuals with multiple names become a slippery slope [01:55:45] Right now, I think there is zero consistency. [01:56:11] <Supreme_Emperor> Would we be better putting this to CT once we determine where in the LG it would go/how to handle situations like Vader/Anakin [01:56:17] could we initially exclude those to avoid craziness? i.e. if the alternate name is an official name that we list in bold in the intro, don't use [01:56:29] <IFYLOFD> I think that would be a good workaround [01:56:37] <DarthRuiz30> I agree with that [01:56:38] <IFYLOFD> A Palpatine/Darth Sidious situation [01:56:54] <Supreme_Emperor> That could be a good solution [01:57:05] Well, that might exclude stuff we do want to differentiate between. [01:57:24] Characters, I get. [01:57:50] But for stuff like technology, we might list multiple names in the intro and still want to differentiate them. [01:57:52] <Supreme_Emperor> What about situations like Death Star/DS-1 Orbital Battle Station [01:58:12] <Ayrehead02> I really like this idea, but I think a CT might be best so we can work out all the details [01:58:22] <DarthRuiz30> ^ [01:58:25] <Supreme_Emperor> I agree [01:58:43] <Fan26> Yeah [01:58:48] <AnilSerifoglu> I'd like to also add that I believe the template should be used if the subject is referred to by the actual Wookieepedia article title and an alternate name but with different capitalization. [01:58:49] <IFYLOFD> Yeah, I'd be OK with sending this to a CT [01:58:58] <Toprawa> May I make a suggestion before we shut this off to CT? [01:59:03] <AnilSerifoglu> Like this one: https://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/TL-50_Heavy_Repeater [01:59:03] <Toprawa> shunt* [01:59:10] Please, Tope. [01:59:11] <Supreme_Emperor> Absolutely [01:59:51] Anil, yes the intent was for this to cover alternate capitalization as well. [02:00:02] alternate capitalization = alternate name [02:00:16] <AnilSerifoglu> Very good [02:01:15] <Toprawa> Actually, I don't have a suggestion [02:01:18] <Toprawa> Sorry [02:01:22] <Toprawa> I think EJ's outline is pretty good [02:01:36] The problem with not having something included in the LG is that there really isn't any mandate to switch from Template:C to Template:ID [02:01:56] And what would we exclude things for having a lot of appearances / sources with alternate names? [02:02:11] Shouldn't they still be treated the same? [02:02:56] <Toprawa> Thought: [02:03:07] <Toprawa> Maybe we don't need to use this template for alternate names [02:03:19] <Toprawa> Just use it for, like, [02:03:26] <Toprawa> When a pilot appears as a snowspeeder [02:03:30] <Toprawa> We have those [02:03:46] What would we use for alternate names? [02:03:53] <Toprawa> If a source calls the TL-50 Heavy Repeater a "TL-50," do we really need to specify that in the Sources? [02:04:10] <Imperators> Tope, we wouldn't a template with special formatting, like the proposed, for that [02:04:10] <Toprawa> Well, can you give me a really solid example of where we should use it? [02:04:21] <Toprawa> I'm sorry if I'm completely derailing this thing [02:04:35] <Toprawa> I just don't think we need to specify, like for the Millennium Falcon or something [02:04:45] <Toprawa> All the Anakin/Vader examples are completely unnecessary [02:04:49] <Supreme_Emperor> I feel CT is our best bet for this one, then we have some time to hash these things out [02:04:50] <Toprawa> We don't need to specify those [02:05:02] <Imperators> send this to the CT [02:05:12] <Toprawa> Ok, one last thought: [02:05:22] this isn't standard now, and we've agreed to create the template, which will at least make usage standard, but there's disagreement over the details of standardizing usage. How about we add something now to the LG like "When listing alternate names used in the source / appearance, use ID rather than C" and then the policy of standardizing when to use it can be hashed out in the CT in more detail? [02:05:30] Okay, if we don't do anything with point 2, point 1 is useless. [02:05:39] We've standardized something we don't agree on. [02:05:43] <Toprawa> I agree, that's why I'm sorry if I'm derailing it, EJ [02:05:44] since EJ had concerns about having a mandate to start using ID instead of C [02:05:54] So what's the point. [02:06:16] I think creating the template is still worthwhile [02:06:19] <Toprawa> EJ, what was that blaster article you used as the example in your first item? [02:06:19] Just scrap this and point 1 and let's move on. [02:06:28] <Supreme_Emperor> Let's put this to CT and move to the next agenda item [02:06:35] it standardizes the formatting for now, even if we don't mandate using it until after the CT [02:06:41] <Toprawa> I like the template and I think there's use for it, I'm just struggling to perfect its usage in my mind [02:06:52] <Supreme_Emperor> Moving on now [02:06:59] * ecks sets mode +m on #wookieepedia [02:06:59] Tope: What you are describing wouldn't be called Template:ID. [02:07:13] SE: Can we wrap this up first? [02:07:13] <Supreme_Emperor> For the next motion of the evening, Tope has the floor [02:07:21] <Toprawa> All right [02:08:00] <Supreme_Emperor> Ok [02:08:19] <Toprawa> This proposal is designed to establish a formal management structure for our three social media platforms: Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram [02:08:30] <Toprawa> Because right now it's pretty unorganized [02:08:42] <Toprawa> And there's potential for abuse [02:08:49] <Toprawa> Someone could just hijack one of the accounts right now and go rogue [02:09:11] <Toprawa> There should always be two administrators with access and control for each account at all times [02:09:51] <Toprawa> Considering all three of the accounts are linked (this is actually a built-in setting that allows for cross-posting, etc.), it makes sense that those two admins should be the same across all platforms [02:10:23] <Toprawa> ecks and I have historically been the two admins most involved in the management and running of our social media accounts, so I believe we're the most qualified to do this [02:11:04] <Toprawa> The way this would run is, these two admins (ecks and I) would have the authority to grant or remove posting access on each account [02:11:32] <Toprawa> We would confer with each other on these decisions, and must unanimously agree on each personnel decision [02:11:53] <Toprawa> The two controlling admins and all users with posting access would comprise our new Wookieepedia Social Media Team [02:12:19] <Toprawa> The inaugural team members would be as such (please scroll down to Social media section): https://ecks.wikia.com/wiki/Wookieepedia:Contact [02:12:31] <Toprawa> This merely reflects who has current posting access on these accounts [02:12:54] <Toprawa> The only difference is that we would be adding Ayrehead to Twitter, presuming he wants it [02:13:26] <Toprawa> As part of this, I am also proposing that account control of Twitter be passed from Cavalier One to ecks (I have account control of Facebook and Instagram). [02:13:46] <Toprawa> Cav originally registered our Twitter account; he has agreed to this if this proposal is approved at the Mofference [02:13:52] <Toprawa> That's about it. [02:14:01] <Toprawa> Ayrehead, let us know if you're still interested in this [02:14:16] <Toprawa> And if anyone else wants to get involved with out social media accounts, you can always let us know [02:14:25] <Toprawa> We're always looking for more people to get involved [02:14:29] <Toprawa> Floor is open [02:14:33] <Supreme_Emperor> Thank you Tope [02:14:33] * ecks sets mode -m on #wookieepedia [02:14:38] <Supreme_Emperor> Floor is now open for discussion [02:14:53] <Imperators> shiny Contact page [02:14:59] <Ayrehead02> I'm still game for being part of the Twitter group [02:15:03] <Toprawa> Cool [02:15:05] <Imperators> proposal sounds sound [02:15:05] <Fan26> Would the team supervise likes and retweets and etc as well? [02:15:18] <Toprawa> How do you mean supervise? [02:15:21] <Supreme_Emperor> Sounds good to me [02:15:28] <AnilSerifoglu> ^ [02:15:35] <Toprawa> The people we grant posting access to will have the autonomy to produce content [02:15:35] <Fan26> Approve, I guess [02:15:42] <Toprawa> We won't micromanage each post, no [02:15:48] <Fan26> Ok, just wondering [02:15:51] <Darth_Culator> As someone with actual work experience as a social media person, I want nothing to do with this and may God have mercy on the souls of anyone who does. :P [02:15:52] yeah [02:15:57] <Toprawa> Boots, Fred, and Brandon have been posting for years now, for example, so we trust them [02:16:17] Brandon currently runs the Twitter basically by himself and he's done well and I feel no need to start reviewing his actions there [02:16:36] <Darth_Culator> Until he starts getting political again [02:16:47] <DarthRuiz30> ^ [02:17:12] <DarthRuiz30> all sounds good to me [02:17:28] <Fan26> Yeah, I'm not saying no one's qualified. I think I was just confused on the finer points of what Tope meant. Support vote armed and ready. [02:17:29] <Supreme_Emperor> Does anyone have any concerns or questions before I open up voting? [02:17:44] <Ayrehead02> I don't think he's done anything controversial in a long time so shouldn't be an issue [02:17:49] <Supreme_Emperor> Ok [02:17:50] <Toprawa> I mean, Culator brings up a fair point [02:17:54] to clarify, are we also voting to create Wookieepedia:Contact ? [02:18:05] <Supreme_Emperor> We are voting to establish a formal management structure for our three social media platforms: Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram [02:18:06] <Toprawa> Brandon has made some overly-political posts on our account before, and I've spoken to him about it [02:18:16] <Toprawa> As an example, if that kind of thing gets out of hand, that's where ecks and I regulate [02:18:33] <Supreme_Emperor> This gives Tope and ecks the authority to handle situations like that, should they arise [02:18:33] nod [02:18:38] <Darth_Culator> Then this is a no-brainer. [02:18:43] <Supreme_Emperor> Ok voting to establish a formal management structure for our three social media platforms: Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram [02:18:47] <Supreme_Emperor> Voting is now open [02:18:48] <Supreme_Emperor> ~open [02:18:49] <PurpleTentacle> Supreme_Emperor: Voting is open. [02:18:51] <AnilSerifoglu> ~support [02:18:51] <PurpleTentacle> AnilSerifoglu: Support vote counted. [02:18:53] <Supreme_Emperor> ~support [02:18:53] <PurpleTentacle> Supreme_Emperor: Support vote counted. [02:18:54] <Ayrehead02> ~support [02:18:54] <PurpleTentacle> Ayrehead02: Support vote counted. [02:18:54] <CorellianPremier> ~support [02:18:55] ~support [02:18:55] <Lewisr> ~support [02:18:55] <PurpleTentacle> grunny: Support vote counted. [02:18:55] <PurpleTentacle> CorellianPremier: Support vote counted. [02:18:55] <PurpleTentacle> Lewisr: Support vote counted. [02:18:55] <Darth_Culator> ~support [02:18:56] <PurpleTentacle> Darth_Culator: Support vote counted. [02:18:56] <Cwedin> ~support [02:18:56] <PurpleTentacle> Cwedin: Support vote counted. [02:18:57] ~support [02:18:57] <Toprawa> ~support [02:18:57] <PurpleTentacle> ecks: Support vote counted. [02:18:57] <Fan26> ~support [02:18:57] <PurpleTentacle> Toprawa: Support vote counted. [02:18:57] <PurpleTentacle> Fan26: Support vote counted. [02:18:58] <Imperators> ~support [02:18:58] <PurpleTentacle> Imperators: Support vote counted. [02:18:59] ~support [02:18:59] <PurpleTentacle> exiledjedi: Support vote counted. [02:19:02] <DarthRuiz30> ~support [02:19:02] <PurpleTentacle> DarthRuiz30: Support vote counted. [02:19:15] <Supreme_Emperor> ~close [02:19:15] <PurpleTentacle> Supreme_Emperor: Voting is closed. [02:19:15] <PurpleTentacle> Supreme_Emperor: Support: 14 [02:19:17] <Supreme_Emperor> ~tally [02:19:17] <PurpleTentacle> Supreme_Emperor: 'Support': 14 [02:19:21] <Supreme_Emperor> Motion passes [02:19:22] <Tommy-Macaroni> ~support [02:19:22] <PurpleTentacle> Tommy-Macaroni: There is no open vote on this channel. [02:19:25] <Supreme_Emperor> XD [02:19:28] 2 slow [02:19:34] <Supreme_Emperor> On to the next agenda item [02:19:46] <Supreme_Emperor> Tope, you have the floor again [02:20:01] <Toprawa> Thank you [02:20:05] * ecks sets mode +m on #wookieepedia [02:20:19] <Toprawa> This will be a multi-vote item [02:20:34] <Toprawa> The first item is as follows: [02:20:52] <Toprawa> Creating a uniform standard for when to link in quote attributions and image captions [02:21:19] <Toprawa> This is something that has mostly been left to editor preference up to now [02:21:53] <Toprawa> I am proposing simply that we only link in quote attributions and image captions if the subject is not linked in the article body already [02:22:02] <Toprawa> By and large, this is how we've been writing our status articles for quite some time now [02:22:33] <Toprawa> This used to be more of a contested item in the past, but now that things have become more streamlined, I thought it would be time to codify it [02:22:42] <Toprawa> This will be added to the Links section of WP:MOS [02:22:47] <Toprawa> Floor, please [02:22:52] <Supreme_Emperor> Thank you Tope [02:22:56] <Supreme_Emperor> Floor is now open for discussion [02:23:17] * ecks sets mode -m on #wookieepedia [02:23:17] <Fan26> Finally a clear rule on this. [02:23:27] <Lewisr> No brainer [02:23:33] <IFYLOFD> This is how I've been doing it for a million years, so I'm in favor [02:23:33] <AnilSerifoglu> Sounds good to me [02:23:39] I kind of thought this was policy already [02:23:39] <Supreme_Emperor> Unofficial policy imo [02:23:50] <Darth_Culator> When will things ever not be linked in the body? Almost never. So this basically kills links in captions and attributions, which is good. [02:24:00] <Toprawa> It just looks neater without quotes [02:24:06] <Toprawa> without links, I mean [02:24:20] <Supreme_Emperor> I support [02:24:33] <CorellianPremier> For sure [02:24:59] <Supreme_Emperor> Alright lets vote on the proposal that we only link in quote attributions and image captions if the subject is not linked in the article body already [02:24:59] <Ayrehead02> I'd pretty much be happy with removing all linking from quotes and captions, so as Culator said, this definitely works for me [02:25:06] <Supreme_Emperor> Voting is now open [02:25:08] <Supreme_Emperor> ~open [02:25:08] <PurpleTentacle> Supreme_Emperor: Voting is open. [02:25:11] <Supreme_Emperor> ~support [02:25:11] <AnilSerifoglu> ~support [02:25:11] <PurpleTentacle> Supreme_Emperor: Support vote counted. [02:25:11] <PurpleTentacle> AnilSerifoglu: Support vote counted. [02:25:12] ~support [02:25:12] <PurpleTentacle> ecks: Support vote counted. [02:25:12] <Toprawa> ~support [02:25:12] <Lewisr> ~support [02:25:13] <PurpleTentacle> Toprawa: Support vote counted. [02:25:13] <PurpleTentacle> Lewisr: Support vote counted. [02:25:15] <CorellianPremier> ~support [02:25:15] <PurpleTentacle> CorellianPremier: Support vote counted. [02:25:16] <Cwedin> ~support [02:25:16] <PurpleTentacle> Cwedin: Support vote counted. [02:25:16] <Darth_Culator> ~support [02:25:17] <PurpleTentacle> Darth_Culator: Support vote counted. [02:25:17] <Ayrehead02> ~support [02:25:17] <PurpleTentacle> Ayrehead02: Support vote counted. [02:25:24] <Imperators> ~support and let's not get hasty without killing links altogether [02:25:24] <PurpleTentacle> Imperators: Support vote counted. [02:25:24] ~support [02:25:24] <PurpleTentacle> grunny: Support vote counted. [02:25:25] <Fan26> ~support [02:25:26] <PurpleTentacle> Fan26: Support vote counted. [02:25:28] ~support [02:25:28] <PurpleTentacle> exiledjedi: Support vote counted. [02:25:35] <DarthRuiz30> ~support [02:25:35] <PurpleTentacle> DarthRuiz30: Support vote counted. [02:25:43] <Supreme_Emperor> ~close [02:25:43] <PurpleTentacle> Supreme_Emperor: Voting is closed. [02:25:43] <PurpleTentacle> Supreme_Emperor: Support: 14 [02:25:45] <Supreme_Emperor> ~tally [02:25:45] <PurpleTentacle> Supreme_Emperor: 'Support': 14 [02:25:52] <Supreme_Emperor> Motion part 1 passes [02:25:55] <Supreme_Emperor> Tope, you have the floor [02:26:00] <Toprawa> Item 2 [02:26:05] <Toprawa> This one will make Ayrehead happy :P [02:26:17] <Toprawa> A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away, some people created this: https://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Forum:CT_Archive/Quotes [02:26:22] <Toprawa> You don't have to read that [02:26:24] <IFYLOFD> Dammit I keep looking away for five seconds and missing the vote [02:26:28] <Toprawa> But it basically established the following: [02:26:43] <Toprawa> Redundant internal links should not be added to quotes because they serve little purpose beyond making the quotes appear cluttered and messy. Links should only be added to quotes if they contain a specific article's ONLY mention of a particular concept, but even then, it is better to integrate the internal link into the body of the article's text. [02:26:43] <Toprawa> Piped links should be avoided as much as possible because they appear unprofessional and are generally distracting. If the context of the quote is not readily apparent, it is best to add appropriate information to the quote attribution field of the quote template rather than adding piped links to ambiguous pronouns such as "you," "he," or "they." [02:26:49] <Toprawa> That is quoted from WP:MOS#Quotations [02:27:29] <Toprawa> I agree with all of that, so much so that I don't think we should be linking in quotes at all, because it does indeed look messy and cluttered [02:27:42] <Toprawa> So I am proposing simply to bar linking in quotes [02:27:49] <Toprawa> This would replace that old policy bit from WP:MOS [02:28:03] <Toprawa> Yes, this mean that in some cases some quotes will have topics that will not be linked in the article [02:28:08] <Toprawa> But that's ok [02:28:17] <Toprawa> We have a magical search function on this wiki [02:28:40] <Toprawa> In the 1% of cases where this applies, it's not hard to type a search request [02:28:50] <Toprawa> In this case, presentation of quotes is more important [02:28:52] <Toprawa> Floor is open [02:28:57] <Supreme_Emperor> Thank you Tope [02:29:01] <Supreme_Emperor> Floor is now open for discussion [02:29:04] <Ayrehead02> Huzzah [02:29:05] Support 100% [02:29:10] o ya [02:29:13] I couldn't agree more [02:29:23] <Fan26> Again, nice to have a rule here [02:29:41] <Supreme_Emperor> Praise this proposal [02:29:43] <Darth_Culator> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gazIa2IibZA [02:30:05] <Supreme_Emperor> Per Culator [02:30:12] <IFYLOFD> Good with me [02:30:18] <DarthRuiz30> total support from me [02:30:30] <Lewisr> Nothing more to add [02:30:34] that was boring, can't someone disagree [02:30:40] <Supreme_Emperor> We seem to be in agreement [02:30:53] <Supreme_Emperor> I will now open voting on the proposal to bar linking in quotes [02:30:59] <Supreme_Emperor> Voting is now open [02:31:01] <Supreme_Emperor> ~open [02:31:01] <PurpleTentacle> Supreme_Emperor: Voting is open. [02:31:02] ~support [02:31:02] <PurpleTentacle> ecks: Support vote counted. [02:31:03] ~support [02:31:03] <PurpleTentacle> grunny: Support vote counted. [02:31:03] <Lewisr> ~support [02:31:04] <Toprawa> ~support [02:31:04] <PurpleTentacle> Lewisr: Support vote counted. [02:31:04] <Supreme_Emperor> ~support [02:31:04] <GreenTentacle> ~support [02:31:04] <PurpleTentacle> Toprawa: Support vote counted. [02:31:04] <PurpleTentacle> Supreme_Emperor: Support vote counted. [02:31:05] <PurpleTentacle> GreenTentacle: Support vote counted. [02:31:05] <Darth_Culator> ~support [02:31:05] <PurpleTentacle> Darth_Culator: Support vote counted. [02:31:05] <Fan26> ~support [02:31:05] ~support [02:31:05] <PurpleTentacle> Fan26: Support vote counted. [02:31:06] <CorellianPremier> ~support [02:31:06] <PurpleTentacle> exiledjedi: Support vote counted. [02:31:06] <PurpleTentacle> CorellianPremier: Support vote counted. [02:31:06] <Ayrehead02> ~support [02:31:06] <PurpleTentacle> Ayrehead02: Support vote counted. [02:31:07] <IFYLOFD> ~support [02:31:07] <PurpleTentacle> IFYLOFD: Support vote counted. [02:31:07] <Cwedin> ~support [02:31:08] <PurpleTentacle> Cwedin: Support vote counted. [02:31:08] <AnilSerifoglu> ~support [02:31:08] <PurpleTentacle> AnilSerifoglu: Support vote counted. [02:31:10] <DarthRuiz30> ~support [02:31:10] <PurpleTentacle> DarthRuiz30: Support vote counted. [02:31:30] <Supreme_Emperor> ~close [02:31:30] <PurpleTentacle> Supreme_Emperor: Voting is closed. [02:31:30] <PurpleTentacle> Supreme_Emperor: Support: 15 [02:31:32] <Supreme_Emperor> ~tally [02:31:32] <PurpleTentacle> Supreme_Emperor: 'Support': 15 [02:31:36] <Supreme_Emperor> Motion part 2 passes [02:31:41] <Supreme_Emperor> Tope, you have the floor [02:31:47] * ecks sets mode +m on #wookieepedia [02:31:52] <Toprawa> That was everything from me on that one [02:31:55] <Toprawa> It's now Anil's turn [02:31:59] * ecks gives voice to AnilSerifoglu [02:32:01] <Supreme_Emperor> Excellent [02:32:08] <Supreme_Emperor> Anil, you have the floor [02:32:37] <AnilSerifoglu> Thank you SE [02:32:46] <AnilSerifoglu> For those who are not familiar with the Galaxy of Heroes app, it is basically a sandbox game that allows you to fight Star Wars characters with each other, canon characters and several Legends characters from Star Wars: The Old Republic. It was made to promote SWTOR, both EA games. The game, overall, has no story elements or whatsoever except for very brief descriptions in each character's stats. So it doesn't mix info from [02:32:47] <AnilSerifoglu> canon/Legends continuities. [02:33:02] <AnilSerifoglu> This issue came to my attention when a character introduced in the app, Tosan, made an appearance in "Age of Republic - Obi-Wan Kenobi 1." In the game, she wields a yellow double-bladed lightsaber, which we don't see in the comic book. I don't see why we shouldn't mention her saber in the article body instead of putting that in the Behind the scenes. [02:33:21] <AnilSerifoglu> So I am proposing the following: Treat "Star Wars: Galaxy of Heroes" as canon in subjects' respective continuities, instead of considering it non-canon like we do now. If subject A is Legends/SWTOR, for example, treat the information originated in the app as canon within Legends; if subject B is originated in a new canon material, or made its first appearance in the app, treat the information originated in the app as canon. [02:33:57] <AnilSerifoglu> Besides having several SWTOR characters, Galaxy of Heroes is no different that the other Star Wars apps today [02:34:08] <AnilSerifoglu> Floor, please [02:34:14] <Supreme_Emperor> Thank you Anil [02:34:22] <Toprawa> Makes sense to me [02:34:23] * ecks sets mode -m on #wookieepedia [02:34:23] * ecks removes voice from AnilSerifoglu [02:34:24] <Supreme_Emperor> The floor is now open for discussion [02:34:26] <Toprawa> Sorry [02:34:29] <Supreme_Emperor> :P [02:34:30] <Toprawa> Makes sense to me :P [02:34:36] <Supreme_Emperor> I agree [02:34:48] Makes sense [02:34:49] <Ayrehead02> Having looked at Galaxies before this is a sound proposal, it's pretty clean cut [02:35:00] <Supreme_Emperor> Very nicely done Anil [02:35:05] <AnilSerifoglu> Thank you [02:35:11] <Fan26> No arguement here [02:35:18] <Fan26> *argument dammit [02:35:41] <Supreme_Emperor> Typo, Tommy has to take a drink [02:35:41] <DarthRuiz30> same here, looks good to me [02:36:02] <Supreme_Emperor> Alright then [02:36:07] <Lewisr> Never played it but you sound like you have it sorted Anil [02:36:16] <Supreme_Emperor> Provided nobody has any questions or concerns I will open the voting [02:36:27] <Supreme_Emperor> We are voting Treat "Star Wars: Galaxy of Heroes" as canon in subjects' respective continuities, instead of considering it non-canon like we do now. If subject A is Legends/SWTOR, for example, treat the information originated in the app as canon within Legends; if subject B is originated in a new canon material, or made its first appearance in the app, treat the information originated in the app as canon [02:36:33] <Supreme_Emperor> Voting is now open [02:36:35] <Supreme_Emperor> ~open [02:36:35] <PurpleTentacle> Supreme_Emperor: Voting is open. [02:36:37] <Toprawa> ~support [02:36:37] <Fan26> ~support first [02:36:38] <PurpleTentacle> Toprawa: Support vote counted. [02:36:38] <PurpleTentacle> Fan26: Support vote counted. [02:36:38] <Supreme_Emperor> ~support [02:36:39] <Lewisr> ~support [02:36:39] <PurpleTentacle> Supreme_Emperor: Support vote counted. [02:36:39] <PurpleTentacle> Lewisr: Support vote counted. [02:36:39] <AnilSerifoglu> ~support [02:36:39] ~support [02:36:39] <PurpleTentacle> grunny: Support vote counted. [02:36:40] <PurpleTentacle> AnilSerifoglu: Support vote counted. [02:36:40] <Imperators> ~support [02:36:40] <PurpleTentacle> Imperators: Support vote counted. [02:36:41] <Cwedin> ~support [02:36:41] ~support [02:36:41] <PurpleTentacle> Cwedin: Support vote counted. [02:36:41] <PurpleTentacle> ecks: Support vote counted. [02:36:42] <Darth_Culator> ~support [02:36:42] <PurpleTentacle> Darth_Culator: Support vote counted. [02:36:46] <Ayrehead02> ~support [02:36:46] <PurpleTentacle> Ayrehead02: Support vote counted. [02:36:47] <DarthRuiz30> ~support [02:36:47] <PurpleTentacle> DarthRuiz30: Support vote counted. [02:36:55] ~support [02:36:56] <PurpleTentacle> exiledjedi: Support vote counted. [02:37:04] <CorellianPremier> ~support [02:37:04] <PurpleTentacle> CorellianPremier: Support vote counted. [02:37:14] <Supreme_Emperor> ~close [02:37:14] <PurpleTentacle> Supreme_Emperor: Voting is closed. [02:37:15] <PurpleTentacle> Supreme_Emperor: Support: 14 [02:37:18] <Supreme_Emperor> ~tally [02:37:18] <PurpleTentacle> Supreme_Emperor: 'Support': 14 [02:37:22] <Supreme_Emperor> Motion passes [02:37:30] * ecks sets mode +m on #wookieepedia [02:37:34] <Supreme_Emperor> For our final agenda item of the evening, Tope has the floor [02:37:51] <Toprawa> Thank you [02:38:25] <Toprawa> All of the vote striking during the Mister/Miss Star Wars contest made me realize there's something in the Signature policy we might want to rectify [02:38:57] <Toprawa> The Sig policy requires that user images be a certain maximum size [02:38:58] <Toprawa> To quote: [02:39:02] <Toprawa> https://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Wookieepedia%3ASignature_policy [02:39:08] <Toprawa> Be more than 20 pixels in height (this limit exists for a reason) [02:39:30] <Toprawa> The reason is that otherwise the text line your signature is on distorts everything around it and it's annoying as crap [02:39:45] <Toprawa> So it's logical that you shouldn't be able to overly enlarge the text itself either [02:40:04] <Toprawa> Someone could set their custom sig to 100 font size and laugh in our face because we don't have a rule specifically prohibiting it [02:40:17] <Toprawa> So I am proposing we close this potential loophole [02:40:36] <Toprawa> Sliding into Rule 7 of the Sig policy would be this: [02:40:48] <Toprawa> You may not enlarge or decrease the font size of any part of your signature beyond the standard wiki text size (this does not apply to natural text size changes caused by different fonts). However, you may format your signature using bold or italics, but underlining is prohibited. [02:40:58] <Toprawa> (There will actually be another vote to this topic, SE) [02:41:01] <Toprawa> Floor is open [02:41:06] <Supreme_Emperor> Thank you Tope [02:41:07] * ecks sets mode -m on #wookieepedia [02:41:10] <Supreme_Emperor> Floor is now open for discussion [02:41:15] may I ask why underlining is prohibited? [02:41:21] <Supreme_Emperor> Agree, close the loophole [02:41:35] <AnilSerifoglu> ^ [02:41:37] <Toprawa> Basically I just think it's annoying, and it can confuse for linking [02:41:38] <Toprawa> For example: [02:41:41] <Supreme_Emperor> It's a formatting thing is it not [02:41:44] <Toprawa> If you hover over a link, it underlines for you to show the link [02:42:15] fair enough [02:42:37] <Imperators> wait, using does not count as reduction in size for the purposes of this rule, does it? [02:42:50] <Toprawa> No, though you can't use sup anyways :P [02:42:57] <Imperators> what? [02:42:59] <Toprawa> The following are specifically prohibited: [02:43:00] <Toprawa> Rule 3 [02:43:03] <Toprawa> Superscript and/or subscript nesting likethis. [02:43:09] <Toprawa> From the policy page [02:43:13] that's nesting [02:43:13] <Imperators> ban me pls [02:43:17] i.e. [02:43:22] <Toprawa> I don't know what the difference is then [02:43:29] <Toprawa> But I'm not trying to prohibit that [02:43:41] <Imperators> https://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/User:Imperators_II/sig [02:43:50] a single sup or sub does not alter line height, which is why it's fine [02:43:55] <Toprawa> Right, it's not for the (Talk) part [02:43:57] <Toprawa> It's for your username [02:44:09] <Toprawa> Let's amend this proposal wording: [02:44:23] can't we just keep it simple: your signature may not alter the default line height [02:44:25] <Toprawa> You may not enlarge or decrease the font size of the username portion of your signature beyond the standard wiki text size (this does not apply to natural text size changes caused by different fonts). However, you may format your signature using bold or italics, but underlining is prohibited. [02:44:35] <Imperators> so, can someone blow up links to their talk pages to font 100 and laugh in our faces? [02:44:50] <Toprawa> Re-revision: [02:44:54] <Supreme_Emperor> :P [02:45:20] <Toprawa> Question, though [02:45:27] <Toprawa> Does line height affect font size, though? [02:45:38] font size affect line height [02:45:55] <Toprawa> Sorry [02:46:06] <Toprawa> What would you propose for the wording, ecks? [02:46:20] fwiw: the default line height in Oasis is 19 pixels and we allow images up to 20 pixels in height [02:46:38] would something like: Your signature may not increase the default line height [02:46:44] <Toprawa> Well, decreasing your sig font size to 1 wouldn't alter the line height, would it? [02:47:03] only if that's the only stuff on the line [02:47:11] otherwise other text on the line will keep it at the default [02:47:21] <Toprawa> What would other stuff be? [02:47:45] <Imperators> texttexttexttext signature at font size 1 texttexttexttexttext [02:47:51] like if you have a line that goes: blah blah blah foo, the entire line will still be 19 pixels in height [02:48:12] whereas if you go blah blah blah foo, the entire line will be 30px in height [02:48:34] <Toprawa> I'm concerned this will not prevent people from having ridiculously tiny signatures either [02:48:45] <Toprawa> The idea here is we want to be able to read your signature and not have you make the voting column look ridiculous [02:48:52] <Toprawa> Font size 1 shouldn't be allowed, for example [02:49:16] Your font must be between 10px and 20px in height. [02:49:28] maybe we can just specifically except non-nested and but otherwise use the first wording: [02:49:30] "You may not enlarge or decrease the font size of any part of your signature beyond the standard wiki text size (this does not apply to natural text size changes caused by different fonts or the use of non-nested or for the talk page portion of the signature). However, you may format your signature using bold or italics, but underlining is prohibited." [02:49:57] <Toprawa> I'm good with that, grunny, if everyone else is as well [02:50:01] for example: the text that creates is 15px (compared to the default 19px) [02:50:23] works for me [02:50:28] <Supreme_Emperor> Sounds good [02:50:33] <Imperators> yeah [02:50:48] <Supreme_Emperor> Ok voting on the first part of this motion [02:50:49] <Supreme_Emperor> You may not enlarge or decrease the font size of any part of your signature beyond the standard wiki text size (this does not apply to natural text size changes caused by different fonts or the use of non-nested or for the talk page portion of the signature). However, you may format your signature using bold or italics, but underlining is prohibited." [02:50:53] <Supreme_Emperor> Voting is now open [02:50:55] <Supreme_Emperor> ~open [02:50:55] <PurpleTentacle> Supreme_Emperor: Voting is open. [02:50:57] ~support [02:50:57] <PurpleTentacle> ecks: Support vote counted. [02:50:58] <Toprawa> ~support [02:50:59] <Supreme_Emperor> ~support [02:50:59] ~support [02:50:59] <PurpleTentacle> grunny: Support vote counted. [02:50:59] <PurpleTentacle> Toprawa: Support vote counted. [02:50:59] <PurpleTentacle> Supreme_Emperor: Support vote counted. [02:50:59] <DarthRuiz30> ~support [02:51:00] <PurpleTentacle> DarthRuiz30: Support vote counted. [02:51:00] <Imperators> ~support [02:51:00] <PurpleTentacle> Imperators: Support vote counted. [02:51:03] <Lewisr> ~support [02:51:03] <PurpleTentacle> Lewisr: Support vote counted. [02:51:06] <Darth_Culator> ~support [02:51:07] <PurpleTentacle> Darth_Culator: Support vote counted. [02:51:11] <Fan26> ~support Hey, we're under 2 hours! [02:51:11] ~support [02:51:11] <AnilSerifoglu> ~support [02:51:12] <PurpleTentacle> Fan26: Support vote counted. [02:51:12] <PurpleTentacle> AnilSerifoglu: Support vote counted. [02:51:12] <PurpleTentacle> exiledjedi: Support vote counted. [02:51:14] <Cwedin> ~support [02:51:14] <PurpleTentacle> Cwedin: Support vote counted. [02:51:24] <Supreme_Emperor> ~close [02:51:24] <PurpleTentacle> Supreme_Emperor: Voting is closed. [02:51:24] <PurpleTentacle> Supreme_Emperor: Support: 12 [02:51:28] <Supreme_Emperor> ~tally [02:51:28] <Toprawa> Thanks, grunny [02:51:28] <PurpleTentacle> Supreme_Emperor: 'Support': 12 [02:51:30] <Supreme_Emperor> Motion passes [02:51:34] <Supreme_Emperor> Tope, you have the floor [02:51:41] <Toprawa> Second part [02:52:02] <Toprawa> Rule 3 of the Sig policy currently reads: [02:52:06] * ecks sets mode +m on #wookieepedia [02:52:09] <Toprawa> 3. You must include your actual user name, or an image depicting it, in your signature. [02:52:33] <Toprawa> This tends to get abused, however, and not for the better [02:52:55] <Toprawa> Too often people will abbreviate their username, which not ideal particularly if we don't even know who you are [02:52:58] <Toprawa> For example [02:53:09] <Toprawa> There was an editor recently this year, I forget his name exactly, who was like Banana32 [02:53:24] <Toprawa> And he kept modifying his signature, and one point was something like B32 with an image of a banana [02:53:29] <Toprawa> Like, we have no idea who the hell you are [02:53:39] <Toprawa> Again, the point is we want to be able to read your signature and recognize you [02:53:57] <Toprawa> So I am proposing we modify the rule as follows: [02:54:14] <Toprawa> 3. You must include your actual, full username. Administrators may use abbreviations of their usernames, provided they are clearly recognizable to the community at large. [02:54:29] <Toprawa> This means you don't get to abbreviate or use images anymore to substitute your name. [02:54:46] <Toprawa> Administrators get to abbreviate as a little spoil of the position, because we know who you are [02:54:52] <Toprawa> They are objectively established members of the community [02:54:59] <Toprawa> Floor is open [02:55:03] <Supreme_Emperor> Thank you Tope [02:55:03] * ecks sets mode -m on #wookieepedia [02:55:07] <Supreme_Emperor> Floor is open for discussion [02:55:14] hmm [02:55:15] <Supreme_Emperor> Wholly support [02:55:27] <Imperators> SE will promptly abbreviate [02:55:27] Is adding spaces allowed? [02:55:36] on one hand, I'm tempted to extend that to "established users", but then again that's kind of hard to define [02:55:41] <Toprawa> Yes, I don't think that's a problem, EJ [02:55:47] <Toprawa> That was my concern, ecks [02:55:53] <Toprawa> I don't know how we define who is an established user [02:55:58] <Toprawa> Beyond being an admin [02:55:59] like, I don't have anything against, say, Anil, using "Anil" as sig [02:56:26] <Supreme_Emperor> Just leave it at admins/bc's otherwise we open a huge can of worms [02:56:35] <Imperators> yeah, that's not something that can/should be defined [02:57:36] poor MasterFred [02:57:42] <Supreme_Emperor> Sorry Ferd [02:57:49] <Toprawa> Frd is not here to object :P [02:58:16] <Toprawa> It's incentive to become an admin :P [02:58:17] <Imperators> furd will have to work on adminship [02:58:25] <MasterFred> I was just about to say something haha [02:58:30] <Imperators> proposal sounds sound to me [02:58:43] hm [02:58:44] <Fan26> Let the admins step on the little guys with personalized sigs [02:58:55] I'm not 100% sold but I won't get into a twist over it :P [02:59:04] <Imperators> abbreviated beyond reason [02:59:18] <MasterFred> Can we petition if we have a misspelled username? XD [02:59:20] established nicknames at admin discretion? idk [02:59:26] <Supreme_Emperor> Not worth it imo [02:59:40] <Imperators> I mean, I don't think the current admin team is going to abuse this, ecks [02:59:47] <Toprawa> I'd rather not need to have to be that bureaucratic about it [03:00:02] <Supreme_Emperor> We don't need to go that into it [03:00:06] <Supreme_Emperor> Keep it basic [03:00:06] <Toprawa> This way at least it's defined [03:00:09] <Supreme_Emperor> Tope [03:00:12] <Imperators> just get rid of pipelinking userpages by way of images pls [03:00:14] <Supreme_Emperor> Tope's proposal is sound [03:00:37] just as long as we don't overdo this [03:00:43] like I think Tommy's sig is perfectly fine [03:00:51] even though it has a logo between Tommy and Macaroni [03:00:57] <Toprawa> I agree [03:01:07] <Toprawa> And at some point it comes down to us choosing how and where to enforce this [03:01:13] <Toprawa> I don't think any of us are going to be that ridiculous about it [03:01:24] <Toprawa> I hate to say this, but it's common sense to me [03:01:26] <Imperators> I guess adding spaces is fine [03:01:40] <MasterFred> Just make it policy that it’s at admin discretion. [03:01:41] <Toprawa> Like, no one is going to tell EJ or Tommy that that's not their "actual" username [03:01:54] <Toprawa> Every policy is admin discretion, Fred :P [03:02:04] <MasterFred> XD [03:02:11] <Supreme_Emperor> Alright, if we have a general agreement here, let's head to voting [03:02:13] We are the senate [03:02:28] <Supreme_Emperor> Proposal is You must include your actual, full username. Administrators may use abbreviations of their usernames, provided they are clearly recognizable to the community at large. [03:02:33] <Supreme_Emperor> Voting is now open [03:02:34] <Supreme_Emperor> ~open [03:02:35] <PurpleTentacle> Supreme_Emperor: Voting is open. [03:02:37] <Supreme_Emperor> ~support [03:02:38] <PurpleTentacle> Supreme_Emperor: Support vote counted. [03:02:38] <Darth_Culator> ~support [03:02:38] <PurpleTentacle> Darth_Culator: Support vote counted. [03:02:39] ~support [03:02:39] <PurpleTentacle> grunny: Support vote counted. [03:02:39] <Toprawa> ~support [03:02:40] <Lewisr> ~support [03:02:40] <PurpleTentacle> Toprawa: Support vote counted. [03:02:40] <PurpleTentacle> Lewisr: Support vote counted. [03:02:40] ~support [03:02:40] <CorellianPremier> ~support [03:02:40] <PurpleTentacle> CorellianPremier: Support vote counted. [03:02:41] <PurpleTentacle> exiledjedi: Support vote counted. [03:02:41] <DarthRuiz30> ~support [03:02:42] <PurpleTentacle> DarthRuiz30: Support vote counted. [03:02:45] <Imperators> ~support unlimited administrator privilege [03:02:45] <MasterFred> ~support [03:02:45] <PurpleTentacle> Imperators: Support vote counted. [03:02:46] <PurpleTentacle> MasterFred: Support vote counted. [03:02:46] <AnilSerifoglu> ~support [03:02:47] <PurpleTentacle> AnilSerifoglu: Support vote counted. [03:02:48] <Cwedin> ~support [03:02:49] <PurpleTentacle> Cwedin: Support vote counted. [03:02:58] <Fan26> ~support not actually under 2 hours...:( [03:02:59] <PurpleTentacle> Fan26: Support vote counted. [03:03:05] ~support [03:03:05] <PurpleTentacle> ecks: Support vote counted. [03:03:11] <Supreme_Emperor> ~close [03:03:12] <PurpleTentacle> Supreme_Emperor: Voting is closed. [03:03:12] <PurpleTentacle> Supreme_Emperor: Support: 14 [03:03:14] <Supreme_Emperor> ~tally [03:03:14] <PurpleTentacle> Supreme_Emperor: 'Support': 14 [03:03:18] <Supreme_Emperor> Motion part 2 passes [03:03:31] <Supreme_Emperor> That is all we have on our agenda, does anyone have any further items they wish to propose? [03:03:57] I have one small proposal if no one minds? I hope it will be quick [03:04:05] it better be quick [03:04:08] * ecks sets mode +m on #wookieepedia [03:04:09] * GreenTentacle points at clock. [03:04:16] <Supreme_Emperor> Absolutely, grunny has the floor [03:04:33] OK, so kind of related to some of the discussions around the user page redirects being cheap [03:05:45] one thing I've notcied (and I have been doing it over the years too) is that we tend to quite often delete redirects created by page moves after removing existing internal links to it, especially for conjectural titles. [03:06:19] this makes an assumption that no one has ever linked to it externally at the old title, which we probably can't know [03:07:06] and I've been dealing with SEO stuff a lot in my day job recently, and random pages being deleted without redirecting comes up a lot, and we can lose some SEO link juice in the process [03:07:23] so, I'd like to propose adding a small "guideline to the deletion policy: [03:07:34] "As a guideline, redirects created from a page move should not normally be deleted without good reason, even if no article on Wookieepedia links to it. Retaining the redirect pages ensures that any previous links to the old title that may have been posted to external sites continue working. This prevents users coming to the wiki via these links from being led to a broken page and retains the SEO value of any external links to a page. [03:07:34] While each deletion is left to administrator discretion, some reasons to consider deleting a page move redirect include vandalism, freeing a title for use by another article, or low value redirects such as those with typos that only existed for a very short period of time prior to being moved to a new title or are otherwise unlikely to have been linked to on external sites." [03:08:02] this kinda matches with Wikipedia's information for example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Redirect#When_should_we_delete_a_redirect?_ [03:08:35] but is just a rough guideline to encourage thinking about leaving redirects behind as "redirects are cheap" and we don't know they aren't used externally. But leaving it up to admin discretion as always [03:08:50] Floor is open :) [03:09:09] * ecks sets mode -m on #wookieepedia [03:09:14] <Toprawa> Not to be crass, but you basically want us to not suppress redirects when we move an article? [03:09:28] <Supreme_Emperor> Thank you grunny [03:09:32] <IFYLOFD> So, for instance, if I move Slapnuts/Canon to Slapnuts, I should just redirect Slapnuts/Canon to Slapnuts instead of deleting it? [03:09:33] <Supreme_Emperor> Floor is open for discussion [03:09:58] this is more for users, we tend to move articles to a new title, then tag them for deletion as "unnecessary redirects" [03:10:02] and we do delete them [03:10:25] this is to consider discouraging that as a general behaviour [03:10:28] <Imperators> Hi. My name is Imperators II, and I am a deleter of unnecessary redirects. [03:10:33] <Toprawa> Speaking for myself, I never delete a redirect that I feel is not warranted [03:10:38] <Toprawa> I delete redirects I think are useless [03:10:43] <Supreme_Emperor> Per Tope [03:10:57] <Toprawa> I've never felt that we need to keep redirects for every misspelling [03:11:10] <Toprawa> Someone creates an article at Lke Skywalker, we don't need to keep that redirect [03:11:12] particularly for articles that may have been at an old title for a while, this can break external links to the content [03:12:02] yeah, that's why this is specific to page move redirects, and specifies that low value redirects would be fine to delete, so wouldn't apply if someone makes a typo and quickly moves it [03:12:26] <Toprawa> I'm imagining a scenario where we discover after 10 years that the guy's name was actually John (farmer) and not Jon (farmer); I understand this is "suggesting" we keep that redirect after we move the article [03:12:46] <Toprawa> I would "consider" it for the reasons you're proposing, but I can't promise I wouldn't think it unnecessary, to be quite frank [03:13:25] <Toprawa> For reference :P https://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Jon_(farmer) [03:14:01] <Toprawa> Is there a specific example you could show us where you think a redirect needs to be kept? [03:14:02] yes, it is for those, even if we feel it's not useful internally, it may have been linked on external sites, and for users coming from those sites, we give them a 404 if we delete. We also benefit from the SEO value of the link even if it now redirects, which is good for the wiki [03:14:18] how much SEO do we really lose if we delete Unidentified B1 battle droid 4 (Malevolence)? [03:14:47] <Toprawa> With all due respect, your proposal is based on hypotheticals [03:14:54] <Toprawa> I'm curious how much practical value there really is to this [03:15:03] <Toprawa> Which, again with respect, I'm not sure there's an answer to that [03:15:06] <Darth_Culator> Seems to me that since the policy specifies admin discretion, this is just trying to get us to change what we do by default. [03:15:12] <Supreme_Emperor> I think this would be something more suited for a CT, though personally I'm not sure it would be warrented [03:15:36] my personal policy is to keep likely search terms [03:15:49] I've seen some users tag pretty likely search terms with [03:15:56] <Supreme_Emperor> ^ [03:16:07] <Imperators> yeah, I'm keeping those, as well. I don't think this is about those, though [03:16:13] nod [03:16:38] yeah, I was testing the waters here to see if anyone disgreed. The point is if "Unidentified B1 battle droid 4 (Malevolence)" was linked to externally, we do benfit in aggregate from those links from external sites not being 404s (each individual link may not have a ton of value, but in aggregate they do) [03:17:19] <Toprawa> I understand what you're saying, but again I question how much this actually happens [03:17:21] but it's not a huge deal, so I'm not going to fight for it, just a suggestion based on SEO work we've been doing over the past year [03:17:37] <Toprawa> It would be really interesting to see how many external-site redirects to Wookieepedia there are [03:17:49] <Supreme_Emperor> If we were going to consider this in future, I'd want to see stats and such [03:17:53] <Supreme_Emperor> Even just out of curiosity [03:19:00] <GreenTentacle> I don't think guidelines along the lines of that Wikipedia page would be a bad thing, but it's very hard to guess what another site might link to. [03:19:31] <Toprawa> Maybe it would be better to just define it as such [03:19:40] and that's why the default should generally be don't delete unless there's a different reason to delete [03:19:42] <Toprawa> If there is a known external website linking to a redirect, that redirect needs to be kept [03:20:33] but we can punt this down the road and I can get some data examples at some point [03:20:34] <Toprawa> I'm just afraid this is going to create unnecessary contention [03:20:34] <IFYLOFD> Yeah, but how do we even check that [03:20:51] <Toprawa> Like, I might think a redirect is unnecessary and want to delete it, but another admin disagrees and points to this "guideline" [03:21:00] <Toprawa> We're fighting over an undefinable thing [03:21:22] <Supreme_Emperor> If you can get us some examples and such, great [03:21:31] <Supreme_Emperor> But for now I think it's a moot point [03:22:22] plus not deleting by default creates less maintenance work for admins, i.e. less redirects from page moves tagged for deletion that then need action. Basically, leave the redirects by default, since "useless" for us, may not be unused entirely by others. [03:22:50] <Toprawa> I don't buy that [03:22:58] <Toprawa> And you brought that up on my other topic [03:23:02] <Toprawa> Like deleting is some chore [03:23:10] <Toprawa> Like it's a chore to delete user subpages [03:23:11] <Toprawa> gtfo :P [03:23:35] Redirects actually cause more of a headache because standard bots don't fix them by default. [03:24:07] not some chore, but I'd rather focus admins on content than on deleting redirects that can be ignored and aren't hurting anything :P [03:24:14] <Supreme_Emperor> I think you've brought up some interesting points, but I don't think we will agree on it here [03:24:27] <Supreme_Emperor> I would recommend CT'ing it in the future [03:24:34] but anyway, let's not keep the European users awake any longer, this isn't going to a conclusion here :) [03:24:52] <Supreme_Emperor> With that though, I will bring this Mofference to a close [03:25:07] <Supreme_Emperor> Thank you very much for attending, and have a great night/day/whatever it is where you are