Talk:Dark trooper

Droids or Persons?
I don't recall the Dark Trooper being indicated as a droid in Dark Forces (the phase 1 must be a droid due to its size, but the other phases appear to be suits). It certainly is not a droid in Star Wars: Rebellion. I think that this information was made up by the authors of The Essential Guide to Droids. This should at least be noted somewhere on the page.69.111.36.8
 * No, they're definitely droids, though the phase 2 and 3 models were carefully designed so that they could operated either independently, or as specialized battle armor for a trooper inside. jSarek 01:05, 19 Oct 2005 (UTC)
 * Care to give your sources or reasoning? 68.126.252.191 22:41, 6 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * I'll assume his source is the Dark Forces video game, where it's explicitly stated in the player's mission briefings that the Dark Troopers are droids. The ultimate objective of the game is to destroy the Arc Hammer, the factory ship where the Dark Troopers are built. Phase 1 and 2 Dark Troopers are definitely droids, whereas a phase 3 Dark Trooper (only one was ever produced, and was operated directly by Rom Mohc in the game's finale) can be used either as a powered suit or as an independent droid. SM-716 13:35, 14 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * I have the Prima Strategy Guide, which has a transcript of all the briefings and cutscenes. The word droid or any other suggestion of them being droids is not found in any of the briefings or cutscenes. I remember that one of the briefings has blueprints of the Dark Troopers - could the information be in the blueprints? I don't know if I really have time to beat two thirds of the game to find out right now. Please post a screenshot of your evidence.68.127.36.59 04:25, 24 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * Oh wait, I forgot about LASKIP. Silly me. I double checked and there are definitely no references to the Dark Troopers being droids. Also (I'd forgotten about this), one of the briefings says General Mohc did not support the Death Star because he strongly dislikes technology which disconnects the soldier from combat - he prefers the honor of personal combat. Now, would such a person really build an army of droids?68.127.36.59 04:43, 24 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * Don't have the free time right now to play through, so I can't offer a specific instance at the moment to prove the droidness of the Phase 2s-- which is the main reason I haven't edited the article. But the cutscene immediately following the first level (it's even on the demo version of the game) shows a machine loading Phase 2 Darktroopers into some sort of pod to be jettisoned from orbit to the surface of planet Talay. Sure, those COULD be specially-trained Stormtroopers who don't mind being bodily lifted by their head... who don't move a muscle during the process.... I never realized before that the game didn't make it clear that they were droids. I'll see what evidence I can find when I'm not working 16-hour days. SM-716 19:05, 29 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * So Phase I is a droid and Phase II is an armor... I don't buy it. Well, the facts are that all sources (including Databank) that say something about the Dark Troopers say that Phase I and II were droids. We can add a note mentioning that The Essential Guide to Droids was the first source explicitly mentioning that the Dark Troopers were droids. By the way now we have a contradiction between the first paragraph and the "Phases" section, one says that Phase II was also wearable as armor like the Phase III, while the other says that the only Phase III could be used as personal armor like Mohc did. Second version is confirmed by the available sources, can we correct the first paragraph or is there any solid source contradicting the others? --Thinortolan 23:42, 29 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * Well, I've seen it somewhere that the Phase II and Phase III armor was wearable, but I'm not sure if it was a credible source, considering I found the site a while ago. Admiral J. Nebulax 00:20, 30 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * Phase I and II were droids; Phase III was the only one that was both a droid and an exo-suit; it was noticably more massive than even the Phase II.--TIEDefenderPilot 00:27, 30 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * I think this article might be better off being completely rewritten; I'll try to do it by the weekend.--TIEDefenderPilot 00:49, 30 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * Just saying "they are droids" doesn't prove a thing. I agree it definitely needs to be rewritten. If you rewrite it, please mention all of the contradictory information on whether or not they are actually droids. As for the cutscene where they are being carried by the machine, it is actually clamped around the shoulders on either side of the neck, not directly to the head. It is weird, but I still don't believe that they are supposed to be droids. Unfortunately, I don't see how we can ever settle this matter without personally contacting Justin Chin (who wrote most of the story).69.111.74.188 02:30, 30 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * At this point, I'm actually curious about just what sources or reasoning led you to think that they were anything BUT droids. It never even occured to me that this was a topic of debate before I saw this talk page. SM-716 19:34, 30 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * As far as I know, there has never been a source that has claimed that they were NOT droids. Some might have been somewhat vague (several sources call them "mechanized super stormtroopers," which could mean droids but could also simply mean that they're mechanically augmented), but none contradict the droid and combined droid/armor descriptions (though, in looking things over, it appears I was mistaken in my assertion that the Phase 2 trooper being usable as a suit of armor; apparently, only the Phase 3 trooper was dual-use).  Moreover, several sources (the Databank, The Essential Guide to Droids and Rebellion Era Sourcebook, at the very least) DO explicitly call them droids.  Thus, there's no contradictory information - they were droids (except for the Phase 3, which was both a droid AND a suit of armor). jSarek 11:13, 30 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * It's settled, then. Admiral J. Nebulax 20:28, 30 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * It's not settled. As I said, in Star Wars: Rebellion, the Dark Troopers are described as limited users of the Force. I never thought the Phase II was a droid when I played the game because it does not look like a droid, and as I stated the game explicitely states that Mohc believes in the honor of personal combat, which does not mesh well with a droid army. And if they were droids, wouldn't they be referred to as such in the game? It's a major detail that I don't imagine they'd ignore. Instead they are often described as a new breed of stormtrooper, which further suggests organic operators.69.111.74.188 00:03, 2 Dec 2005 (UTC)
 * It is settled because games are not always reliable. Admiral J. Nebulax 00:11, 2 Dec 2005 (UTC)
 * I second Jack, Rebellion also shows Coruscant as being in Sesswenna Sector (between other planet-sector messes) and X-1 Viper droids in the Galactic Civil War, also, the supposed dark trooper image is different to the ones from Dark Forces, looks more like a SD-9 from Dark Empire. --Thinortolan 00:21, 2 Dec 2005 (UTC)
 * Also, Battlefronts I and II have been proven to gone against canon. Admiral J. Nebulax 00:24, 2 Dec 2005 (UTC)
 * I think the databank (note the category under which "Dark trooper" is filed) carries more canonical weight than the Rebellion RTS game. What more is there to say?--SM-716 02:07, 2 Dec 2005 (UTC)
 * Well then why can't we have a note in the article about contradictory sources? And I did not mean that the Rebellion description is necessarily accurate, but it is still contradictory information, which means that jSarek's assertion was incorrect. You also cannot fairly say that the issue is settled when there are people who still disagree on it and sources that disagree on it. I don't want the entire article to be rewritten, I just think there should be a note that the game does not establish that they are droids and some sources contridict the entries which say that they are droids.69.111.74.188 04:24, 2 Dec 2005 (UTC)
 * Contrary to what the others have said, every source IS canonical - Rebellion and Battlefield included - and discrepencies must be dealt with by Lucasfilm on a case-by-case basis. That said, I believe that Rebellion's Force-using statement (which I was unfamiliar with) is the only source that DIRECTLY indicates that they're not droids (not having Rebellion, they could also all be Phase 3 designs with Force users in them, for that matter).  A single piece of evidence from a comparatively obscure source is unlikely to overrule a number of sources, both well known and obscure, that indicate otherwise.  As for Mohc, he hated technology that kept a person from seeing his attacker - thus, Death Stars were frowned upon, but battle droids were right up his alley (you can see a bit more into his motivations here).  At any rate, now that I've actually seen contradictory information, I have no objection whatsoever to a Behind the Scenes note mentioning it. jSarek 06:04, 2 Dec 2005 (UTC)
 * Dark Trooper information from Star Wars: Rebellion 69.111.74.188 20:52, 3 Dec 2005 (UTC)
 * And that's a source how? Admiral J. Nebulax 21:50, 3 Dec 2005 (UTC)
 * The image, description, and stats are taken directly from Star Wars: Rebellion, an official Star Wars game published by Lucasarts. Here is a screenshot from inside the game. Perhaps you can understand why I linked that webpage instead? 69.111.74.188 06:06, 5 Dec 2005 (UTC)
 * Not all games are considered sources. Admiral J. Nebulax 22:02, 5 Dec 2005 (UTC)
 * ...read JSarek's last comment again... 69.111.74.188 04:45, 6 Dec 2005 (UTC)
 * That doesn't matter. Many games have gone against canon, and therefore are not considered a good source. However, they are sources, but the information is not always reliable. Admiral J. Nebulax 22:06, 6 Dec 2005 (UTC)

When was it established that Carnor Jax used Dark Troopers to defeat the rest of the Crimson Guard? The comic only showed regular Stormtroopers.--TIEDefenderPilot 07:33, 21 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * Well, I myself don't have the comic, but sometimes the comics portray one thing as something else. Admiral J. Nebulax 12:44, 24 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * I don't know if this is reliable, but in StarWars:Battlefront 1 and 2, when a dark trooper gets shot they make a human sounding grunt and scream like stormtroopers when they die.
 * Games have many things that are not canonical, and that is probably one of them. Admiral J. Nebulax 23:18, 30 Nov 2005 (UTC)
 * I think Dark Troopers are biological in nature: I think it wouldn't make sense for the republic/empire to use clones only to go back to droids again. Bear in mind the fatal flaw in droids: if you take out a link in the command chain, you knock out all droids connected to that chain (See the Phantom Menace) -- TheDarkArchon 12:15, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

I don't know if I found a solution, but I think the article looks much better now MoffRebus 21:47, 21 Dec 2005 (UTC)
 * A little, yes. Admiral J. Nebulax 00:08, 22 Dec 2005 (UTC)

Capitalization
Shouldn't be "Dark Trooper project" uppercase unlike direct references to dark troopers? In fact, isn't it called "Dark Forces project" or it was just the game name? --Thinortolan 00:26, 2 Dec 2005 (UTC)
 * Oops, I must have overlooked the "project" part. Admiral J. Nebulax 00:29, 2 Dec 2005 (UTC)

Vandalism
Someone has repeatedly vandalised the article by change dark trooper to "dark rrooper" or "super trooper". Someone should keep an eye on this.69.111.74.188 04:33, 2 Dec 2005 (UTC)

Jedi Academy
I seem to specify troops with jetpacks in the game, can anyone get a source Revan 05:15, 15 Dec 2005 (UTC)


 * There are no dark troopers in JA, I have the game. There are DTs in mods for it, :though. Tokakeke 19:22, 15 Dec 2005 (UTC)


 * Thank you. Admiral J. Nebulax 19:26, 15 Dec 2005 (UTC)
 * Actually, there are enemy NPCs in the single-player game which are human operators (presumably, given the way they grunt in pain when attacked) in armored suits with jetpacks, brandishing Imperial Heavy Repeater rifles. While they're never named directly in the game, their NPC file in the game's assets is titled "darktrooper.npc". The enemies in Jedi Academy are definitely NOT Dark Troopers, though; I just think that the game developers didn't know what else to label the NPC file. I can see how this could cause some confusion, though. SM-716 18:25, 28 Dec 2005 (UTC)
 * Why it would be so far-fetched to think that the technology was not toally lost in Dark Forces, but it was re-used (in little gravity and expansion of course) by the Remnant? MoffRebus 20:22, 28 Dec 2005 (UTC)
 * In response to what SM-716 said: Okay, then, what are they? Admiral J. Nebulax 20:50, 28 Dec 2005 (UTC)
 * Something other than Dark Troopers. They're too small, too lightly-armed, and too lightly-armored to be Phase 3s, and the human grunts of pain would suggest that they're not Phase 2 droids. They're something else... maybe a Phase 4 Dark Trooper, if the technology survived the destruction of the Arc Hammer and was developed further as MoffRebus suggests. Or it could be something developed independently of General Mohc's project. They could possibly be "Airtroopers", as was speculated at the Airtrooper talk page. Or could they be modified Hazard Troopers? I think it's pretty apparent, however, that the enemies in Jedi Academy are not Phase 1, 2, or 3 Dark Troopers. The NPC file name (which the average game player would never see) shouldn't be considered canonical evidence; if it was, that would mean that the official name of the bug things in the Artus Prime mining tunnels of Jedi Outcast is "Mine Monster". SM-716 18:51, 29 Dec 2005 (UTC)
 * Well, we'll need confirmation on that. Admiral J. Nebulax 20:31, 29 Dec 2005 (UTC)
 * Are we at least in agreement that the humans with jetpacks in Jedi Academy are NOT Dark Troopers? Or are you advocating that they ARE until someone confirms that they're not? SM-716 21:03, 29 Dec 2005 (UTC)
 * They are actually called "Rocket Troopers": There was a WOTC article with stats for both the Rocket Troopers and the Hazard Trooper; Personally I wouldn't relate them to Dark Troopers at all. [] --TIEDefenderPilot 22:37, 29 Dec 2005 (UTC)
 * Interesting. A page should be made for rocket troopers if it hasn't been done so already. Admiral J. Nebulax 23:44, 29 Dec 2005 (UTC)

Answers from Justin Chin
I recently sent off an email to Justin Chin through his website www.monsterrocket.com and he responded with the following answers; I assure you that this is in no way edited and I can forward a copy of the entire email to anyone who is interested.

Q- So, basically, I'm asking you to confirm are the Dark Troopers actually droids? Or could the Phase II work as exosuits as well?

A- They are droids up until the last phase (3). The development of the dark troopers spanned 3 (known within the game context) phases of development. Each portion of the development is intended to prototype certain elements of the project.

Phase 1 the basic mechanics of the trooper - chassis, strength, form and function.

Phase 2 exterior elements - the armor, and armaments.

Phase 3 the 2 previous phases plus manual interaction - integrating the soldier.

The main goal for the dark trooper project was to create the next evolution of the stormtrooper. This project mainly comprised of the armor and the application of weaponry. So it was intended for use with the basic soldier of the standard and current stormtrooper (clone and the like) but looking forward to whatever internal system that might be developed.

Mr. Chin also answered a personal theory I had regarding the usage of Dark Troopers:

Q- Also, this is just a personal theory of mine, but if the Dark Troopers would have continued production, would it have been that there were be squads of Phase II droids being lead by organically piloted Phase IIIs?

A- Yes, that could happen, but I didn't see the evolution of the Dark Troopers in that light. My direction for General Mohc was that he never wanted to eliminate "human" interaction of the battle from the warrior. Though he wanted the ultimate weapon, he also wanted the soldier to be a part of the equation. In fact, he had a particular disdain for the Death Star and preferred a more surgical strike that (he felt) could only be made by soldiers in the field.

Hope that clears up some of our issues; I found Mr. Chin's answers to be very helpful, personally, as I am writing some fanfiction regarding Mohc's service in the Clone Wars and afterwards for the Empire.--TIEDefenderPilot 04:51, 22 Dec 2005 (UTC)
 * Thank you, TIEDefenderPilot. Admiral J. Nebulax 19:38, 22 Dec 2005 (UTC)
 * I'm reluctant to believe this. I tried asking him once and he didn't reply. Cyrix 19:48, 4 August 2006 (UTC)


 * When did you ask him? Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 19:49, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Battlefront
Shouldn't this have a pic of the Dark Trooper from Battlefront?Adventfear 19:37, 26 Dec 2005 (UTC)
 * Why does it matter? Admiral J. Nebulax 19:57, 26 Dec 2005 (UTC)
 * Well, It doesn't even have a mention of the Dark Trooper type seen in in the games.Adventfear 10:58, 27 Dec 2005 (UTC)
 * It's bascially the same type. Admiral J. Nebulax 12:56, 27 Dec 2005 (UTC)
 * It's appearance is modified because of the limitations of the game engine. Individual soldier sprites were limited in width. --SparqMan 02:07, 30 Dec 2005 (UTC)
 * Still, it's the same except for the limitations. Admiral J. Nebulax 12:40, 30 Dec 2005 (UTC)
 * The very fact that Dark troopers are in Battlefront II is really a large mistake. The entire droid series was designed after Kyle Katarn stole the Death Star I plans, and even sometime after the Battle of Yavin. Additionally, though it is simply gameplay mechanics, the units themselves are much smaller than those in Dark Forces, as well as being nowhere near as tough. Additionally, the units in Battlefront II would appear to be Mark II Dark troopers...which were one of the models that were droid operated, and had no room for a human operator. Perhaps we are in fact witnessing an entirely new Dark trooper, a precursor to those in Dark Forces? General Rom Mohc may have simply taken a previous "heavy" design of stormtrooper armor and upgraded it, creating the later Dark troopers? -Jaymach Ral'Tir 12:50, 30 Dec 2005 (UTC)
 * It's only a game. Games screw things up all the time. Admiral J. Nebulax 12:53, 30 Dec 2005 (UTC)
 * Just because the other troops in the Imperial faction in Battlefront are humans do not mean that the Dark trooper is supposed to have a human in it. After all, the entire Separatist faction is made up of droids and they are playable as well. The game never actually specifies whether the Dark troopers are droids or not.
 * Yes, but that's not really the problem with them in Battlefront II. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 13:59, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Split
I am splitting the article up into articles for Phase I, II, III, and the galaxies trooper. Is this OK? It would be more organized and less cluttered.
 * I think that would be okay. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 18:01, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

"Stormtroopers with jet-packs"
"However, these dark troopers had nothing to do with any of the phases of dark trooper run on Arc Hammer." What's the source for that? --SparqMan 22:52, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Wouldn't all dark troopers be a part of the Dark Trooper Project anyway? Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 23:47, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Ord Sedra?
This page and the Battle of Ord Sedra both claim that there were NR dark troopers on Ord Sedra. I'm pretty sure that Nathan P. Butler or James Raiz said at TF.N that the troopers in Equals and Opposites were simply stormtroopers in modernized and improved armour, and regardless, I was under the impression that they were certainly Imperial troops, not NR. Or is there some other source here that I don't know about? --McEwok 17:50, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't see how the New Republic would manage to get and use dark troopers, unless it was just the armor. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 20:05, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, they could reprogram them? However, I've been able to discuss this briefly with Nathan Butler himself, and I've confirmed they're stormtroopers, and Imperial, although that doesn't rule out hypothetical darktrooper influence in the armour upgrades. Anyone got any specific similarities between the way they're drawn and the darktroopers? --McEwok 23:41, 10 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks for letting us know. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 23:42, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Added that to the article.
 * Excellent. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 11:46, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Clean up
This article does a poor job of clearly explaining whether DTs were droids or people, and all of the related projects that followed, like SWG's "Crackdown dark trooper". I would tackle it, but I'm not familiar with most of the sources. --SparqMan 18:55, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
 * This article does need a lot of work. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 19:40, 28 June 2006 (UTC)