Wookieepedia:Featured article nominations/Battle of Endor (second nomination)

Battle of Endor

 * Nominated by:--ID-21 Dolphin 01:37, September 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * Nomination comments: Well, it's here- possibly the greatest moment in the Star Wars saga. I've done some major modifications to this page since the previous nomination: making a longer intro, fixing souurces, and sourcing obscure people and ships. I expect this to be my last major project for a while.--ID-21 Dolphin 01:37, September 6, 2010 (UTC)

Eyr

 * We don't do lists. Those will need to be written up. --Eyrezer 01:42, September 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * Which list do you mean?--ID-21 Dolphin 02:09, September 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * Done. The participants list is now turned into text, as with other battle FAs.--ID-21 Dolphin 01:20, September 7, 2010 (UTC)

Ambitious! I like it.

 * The unsourced, speculative final paragraph of the bts is an absolute no-no and has gotta go-go.
 * Should I search for sources or just delete the whole thing?--ID-21 Dolphin 13:00, September 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * Hmmm... if you can find some legitimate sources for the statements " Fans known as "film purists" reject all Star Wars material outside the movies, and therefore view the Battle of Endor as the final plot point in the saga." and " George Lucas, who has constantly denied any possibility of any future movies, has affirmed his belief that the saga ends with the death of Anakin Skywalker, since he is the tragic hero.", it would probably be OK and relevant. Menkooroo 13:11, September 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * Deleted some of the unsourced info, and used two external articles and an entry from Leland Chee's blog as sources for the rest. Now the entire paragraph is sourced; you might try reading it again if you want.--ID-21 Dolphin 13:58, September 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep in mind that you should never strike another's objections. Menkooroo 14:04, September 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * Sorry! I thought I should use the cross-out once I had finished sourcing what others suggested.--ID-21 Dolphin 14:30, September 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * No worries. I made the same mistake during my first FAN. :^D Menkooroo 14:55, September 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * A lot of the bts needs sourcing:
 * "it was believed that the Star Wars story had ended with the death of Palpatine and the defeat of the Empire." Believed by who?
 * Removed and rephrased to adhere to the available sources.--ID-21 Dolphin 13:58, September 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * And... "it still remains a source of strong debate among fans." That kind of statement needs a source.
 * Removed, used only sourcable material.--ID-21 Dolphin 14:48, September 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * "this theory has been refuted by way of retcons and new explanations" --- Which retcons? Source it, baby!
 * Addressed.--ID-21 Dolphin 14:48, September 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm pretty confused as to how mentioning The Glove of Darth Vader refutes the Endor Holocaust theory...
 * It's an indirect retcon. The novel talks about the black hole near Endor, the Endor Gate, which sent debris from Endor to the other side of the galaxy (specifically, Darth vader's glove to Mon Calamari). One of the main points of evidence against the Endor Holocaust is that the black hole would have blown most to all of the Death Star's debris to other systems in the galaxy. I just thought that referencing that in the Battle of Endor BTS would be off-topic, since there's a whole explanation about that in the Endor Holocaust article. Hope that helps!--ID-21 Dolphin 21:28, September 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, simply saying "which stated the novel The Glove of Darth Vader in its explanation" isn't enough info. I think it should either be expanded or left out. Also... which article? Pipelink to it, baby! And also note the proper way to cite insider articles: *
 * Addressed, though it's not a specific article, just a question and answer column, so the source is the magazine as a whole.--ID-21 Dolphin 22:21, September 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * Just to clarify: The sentence, as it is currently written, references an explanation but doesn't state what that explanation is. Just what is Pablo's explanation? The article should give a very brief summary. Menkooroo 04:05, September 11, 2010 (UTC)
 * Explained, added two sentences and sourced.--ID-21 Dolphin 13:04, September 11, 2010 (UTC)
 * "both games are considered non-canon." needs a source.
 * Used the Starwars.com forums.--ID-21 Dolphin 02:15, September 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * You've source the first page of the thread, but you'll need to source the specific post. If you gimme the date and time it was posted, I can help you out with that.
 * "Lucasfilm Ltd. has stated that the 2004 DVD versions are the canonical depiction of the events in the trilogy," --- where did they state it?
 * Sourced from the Starwars.com blogs.--ID-21 Dolphin 15:00, September 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * Some of the bts info seems a bit extraneous. The Ewoks' fan popularity might be relevant to the Ewok article, but probably not to the battle of endor article. "The story after Endor" could probably be trimmed down quite a bit, too.
 * Took care of the Ewok issue, and consolidated "the story after Endor".--ID-21 Dolphin 15:26, September 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * "The story after Endor" still seems way too long. Mentioning Dark Empire, the NJO, and Legacy is drifting too far off-topic. You've already hit home the point that the story continues, and all of these examples of "Here's how!" seem way too extraneous, ya know?
 * Kept part of it, and cut several sentences to get the extraneous deatils out.--ID-21 Dolphin 23:31, September 8, 2010 (UTC)
 * There are a whole bunch of other ccg cards that will need to be added to the source list. Comb through and, and don't forget "picture only"!
 * Sourced the ones I used in the sourcebox.--ID-21 Dolphin 21:22, September 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * Are there any more? I feel like nearly every single card from both of those links would qualify as a source, even if only "picture only".
 * There are more, but none which have been used or referenced in th article, so would I still need to source them?--ID-21 Dolphin 22:00, September 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah. The article's "Sources" section needs to include every source that the subject is mentioned in, even if it contains no new info. If a sourcebook, a ccg card, a databank entry, or what have you references the Battle of Endor, it needs to be included in the "sources" section. Ditto any books or comics or anything that mention it --- they still need to go in the "Appearances" section with a "mentioned only" tag.
 * I've done it: I combed through every Databank entry and added every one that mentioned the battle, even if there was no new info. There are practically a hundred in the sourcebox now, though only two or three are actually used as references in the body of the article.--ID-21 Dolphin 13:32, September 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * Have you checked through every source in the source list? I notice some missing ones, too, such as The Movie Trilogy Sourcebook. You should check them all if you haven't.
 * Just a note on this one: I know it will be difficult, as the Battle of Endor is mentioned in countless sourcebooks, but always keep in mind that Wookieepedia is a community full of people willing to help each other out! You can always ask around to see who owns what. A few more specific notes to get you started:
 * Databank entries should always go at the end of the sourcelist. And there have gotta be more than three DB entries that reference the battle.
 * There are countless others, but I haven't used information from any of them in the article. Should they still be sourced?--ID-21 Dolphin 22:00, September 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * They need to go in the "Sources" section, yeah. If they contain no new or unique info, you don't need to reference them within the article's body, but they still need to be checked for new info and put in the "Sources" section.
 * Life and Legend of Obi-Wan Kenobi should be an appearance, not a source.
 * Changed.--ID-21 Dolphin 16:48, September 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * I feel like there are probably more fact files that reference it, too.
 * Some more sourcebooks that almost definitely talk about the Battle of Endor: The Movie Trilogy Sourcebook, Heir to the Empire Sourcebook, Dark Force Rising Sourcebook, The Last Command Sourcebook, The Thrawn Trilogy Sourcebook, Galaxy Guide 5: Return of the Jedi (Second Edition), Star Wars Trilogy Sourcebook - Special Edition, probably The Star Wars Sourcebook and Star Wars Sourcebook (Second Edition), The Essential Guide to Characters, The New Essential Guide to Characters (which you source, but don't actually include in the source list), The Essential Chronology, The Essential Guide to Vehicles and Vessels, Star Wars: Behind the Magic and Star Wars Encyclopedia (other ones sourced but not in the source list)... and, truthfully, probably a lot more. Any one of them could have new and unique info about the battle. Don't just add them to the source list, though --- they'll need to be checked for info first. Menkooroo 05:11, September 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * There are 36 sources to Death Star II Limited... but you'll have to source the individual cards.
 * Put all of the ones referenced in the sourcebox.--ID-21 Dolphin 21:22, September 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * Still 16 sources to "Death Star II Limited". Also, here's a tip for ya: ccg cards should be cited like this:
 * There are only fifteen references; the number shrinked by more than half when I deleted the participants list.--ID-21 Dolphin 22:00, September 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * But... there should be zero sources to "Death Star II Limited". The individual cards themselves need to be sourced.
 * Aaah. Do you mean in the reference box, or only in the sourcebox?--ID-21 Dolphin 12:30, September 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure about the value of the "Participants" section. I don't think any other Battle FA's have it. Menkooroo 01:51, September 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * Some have it. However, as Eyr said, the list needs to be turned into text, with emphasis on each person's individual contribution to the battle. QuiGonJinn  Senate seal.svg(Talk) 07:30, September 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * The problem isn't the commanders- the guys like Han Solo, Luke Skywalker, Palpatine, etc. It's just that since there are so many soldiers who have been named in card games, novels, or the like, they have to be referenced somewhere, and this seems like the best place. Abd trust me, I've thought it over many times, and I haven't found a better solution.--ID-21 Dolphin 13:00, September 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * If you really want to have a list of participants, please do a list like this. -- 1358  (Talk) 13:07, September 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah, a battle article doesn't need to list every known participant. If their role in it warrants a mention in the narrative, that's OK, but if not, their involvement can be left out. Menkooroo 13:11, September 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * I'll see. I won't work on that until I'm done addressing the unsourced info and unreferenced sources. Then, I'll probably follow your advice and write about nine or ten main particpants total.--ID-21 Dolphin 14:04, September 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * Currently working on the section, about ten particpants total.--ID-21 Dolphin 15:31, September 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm done. I've copied the one on Battle of Khorm, with four Imperial characters and six Rebel ones. The section does look a lot better now.--You can't disguise yourself from me...Jedi. 18:35, September 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * An account of the ROTJ Infinities Battle of Endor is in order for the bts. :^) Menkooroo 13:11, September 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * I'll do it soon.--ID-21 Dolphin 14:04, September 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * Written and sourced.--ID-21 Dolphin 15:19, September 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * Mention that Han is aboard the Falcon instead of on the ground, baby! And doesn't Wedge, not Lando, destroy the reactor core? Menkooroo 04:44, September 8, 2010 (UTC)
 * Done.--ID-21 Dolphin 20:18, September 8, 2010 (UTC)

Xd1358

 * Great idea for an FA. You have some broken references; please fix them. -- 1358  (Talk) 13:19, September 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * Examples please??--ID-21 Dolphin 13:51, September 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * Ref number 73 and 75; Battle of Endor. -- 1358  (Talk) 14:05, September 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * Fixed.--ID-21 Dolphin 14:35, September 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * You need to do something with your image alignment. The participants section is fine, but everything beneath the infobox needs to be aligned left-right... -- 1358  (Talk) 10:34, September 8, 2010 (UTC)
 * I can't because of the infobox. Because it's so large for this article, there's no space for images on the right for most of tha page.--ID-21 Dolphin 11:17, September 8, 2010 (UTC)
 * Hence why I said "beneath" the infobox. Please do the alignment thing for those images. -- 1358  (Talk) 11:33, September 8, 2010 (UTC)
 * I made the left-right for the Aftermath and BTS sections, which are the only ones under the infobox.--ID-21 Dolphin 20:14, September 8, 2010 (UTC)
 * Sorry to butt in... but Dolphin, based on your comments in a few FA nominations, I think that you must have a very unique resolution. On the computer I'm on right now, the infobox doesn't even reach the "The space battle" section. Menkooroo 05:14, September 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * My resolution is 1280x1024, and the infobox ends after the second paragraph of "space battle". -- 1358  (Talk) 12:12, September 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * THat's the problem. 1920*1200, though my computer screen looks sort of hideous whenever I change the resolution. So unofrtunately, I doubt that I can change it. Sorry.--ID-21 Dolphin 21:54, September 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * You can align images right even when there's an infobox, as demonstrated in Twilight (G9 Rigger freighter). -- 1358  (Talk) 12:15, September 13, 2010 (UTC)

Lee attacks

 * Source the unsourced casualties in the infobox or remove them.  Clone Commander Lee  Talk 18:14, September 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * Oops. I'll get to it.--You can't disguise yourself from me...Jedi. 18:34, September 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * All sourced to the best of my ability.--ID-21 Dolphin 19:02, September 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * There are still several unsourced. If you can't find a source, remove it. But check all sources.  Clone Commander Lee  Talk 10:41, September 8, 2010 (UTC)
 * I've done all of them in the infobox. Are there any missing in the body of the article?--ID-21 Dolphin 23:37, September 8, 2010 (UTC)
 * Could you please tell me where you see new unsourced info, or strike your objection? That would be nice, thanks.--ID-21 Dolphin 12:52, September 11, 2010 (UTC)

Green Tentacle

 * Per WP:LG, the sources list should be sorted by date of publication. Green Tentacle (Talk) 19:44, September 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * Will do. But I think Databank entries always go at the end, don't they?--ID-21 Dolphin 20:35, September 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah. Green Tentacle (Talk) 20:45, September 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * So let's make this clear: all sources except for DB entries in order of publication, then all DB entries in alphabetical order? Or are there other types of sources that always go at the beginning or end of a list?--ID-21 Dolphin 22:50, September 12, 2010 (UTC)

Comments

 * There is no way that Appearances/Sources list is complete. You need to check every source that has mentioned the Battle of Endor since 1983. Also, there are sources in your references that are not in the Sources list, which is quite unorganized at the moment. Xicer9 atgar.svg( Combadge) 21:31, September 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * I know; it's been mentioned above. There are some missing sourcebooks, reference books, video games, etc. I plan to work on it ASAP, now that I'm done with the rest.--ID-21 Dolphin 01:14, September 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * While what I have to say is somewhat the same as Xicer's comments, I feel that this will reinforce the significance of the issue. As a FAN, this article needs to adhere to FAN Rule 3, which means that it must "be sourced with all available sources and appearances." This, like all of the other source- and sourcing-related objections that have already been made, should have been fixed before the article was even nominated&mdash;every single source that has ever mentioned the Battle of Endor needs to be included in the article. Without even being close to familiar with all of the original trilogy source material, I can definitely state for fact that it's going to take a very long time and a copious amount of effort to track down all of the relevant sources (and presumably double-check them for new info), and even then some sources and info might be missing. I understand that this is one of your first nominations, and I admire your willingness to tackle such a challenging topic, but in all honesty, the FAN process should not have to wait for you (or in general, any nominator, for that matter) to track down sources and verify that their relevant information is included in the article. If you are absolutely committed to FAing this major battle, then I wish you luck. I would personally recommend that you take down this nomination so that you can work on the source hunt without the pressure of the nomination process, but if you do decide to continue on with this nomination, you should be aware just how much work it's going to take. I don't say this to hamper your efforts, but to make sure that you are fully aware of the severity of this problem.  CC7567  (talk) 04:24, September 11, 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm working on it. Just a question, though: does a source refer to any book or piece of information that mentions the battle, or only ones that have been specifically sourced and referenced in the body of the article? As for source hunting, though, I'm not sure it will take that much time, there's only a finite number of books, games, etc. For appearances, of course, this is an easier task, as I don't have to mention sourcebooks and articles there, do I. I think I'll keep the nom here, just because it makes me more aware of the issues with the article so that I can correct them. As you can see, there are already many objections that I fixed, and I will do the same for this one, even if it takes a while. Thanks for making me aware, though, this is not an easy task, but I don't plan to make any other FAnoms in the future, so I plan to make this one a success. Any help is appreciated, CC.--ID-21 Dolphin 12:42, September 11, 2010 (UTC)
 * I'll do most of this by combing the List of Star Wars media and checking each source, that will get me closer to my objective.--ID-21 Dolphin 12:45, September 11, 2010 (UTC)
 * A source is anything that mentions the battle, not just the ones that are used as cited sources in the article. Trust me&mdash;there's probably more than you think, and I even doubt that that List of Star Wars media is complete. I would recommend asking some of the more OT-experienced users to help you, but you should still have ready access to all or most sources in order to be able to scrutinize them for info.  CC7567  (talk) 17:04, September 11, 2010 (UTC)
 * I'll begin with the databank, then I'll look at sourcebooks and cards. Plus I have a big Star Wars library, so I can look for mentions there. It may be an arduous task, but it'll eventually pay off. Just for clarification, can appearances like ROTJ count as sources as well?--ID-21 Dolphin 20:28, September 11, 2010 (UTC)
 * ROTJ is not a source, it's an appearance. Appearances are IU works while sources include sourcebooks, cards, and everything else. Yes, sources can be IU, but it shouldn't be hard to see what's an appearance and what's a source. -- 1358  (Talk) 20:35, September 11, 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm going somewhere. I've sourced every single Databank entry that mentioned the battle, practically 100. All are at the end of the source list. Then I'll have cards and books.--ID-21 Dolphin 13:30, September 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * I want to through caution out there, however, about one thing: It is easy to simply just add things to the source list without adding new information that comes from the source if there is any. Make sure that any source added to the list has been checked for any new detail. Don't be afraid to think outside the box a little, as well. Some places, such as the novels, may have an indirect mention to the battle. There are ways of combing through those with ease, (as many people have for other projects). IRC is a good place to ask for help with that. &mdash; Fiolli  {Alpheridies University ComNet} 00:06, September 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * Sometimes, I just do it the hard way and go through entire lists. For example, for the DB entries, I combed through the entire list of DB entries to find ones that mentioned the battle. Many of them were not obvious, just mentioning something that had occurred "X years after the Battle of Endor". And yes, I've also added some new and non-obvious deatil, such as referencing certain Legacy of the Force novels which briefly mentioned the battle or were set on Endor. But yes, sourcing obscure sources is definitely the most difficult task of this FAnom, and I will add new relevant info whenver I find any. Cheers.--ID-21 Dolphin 01:24, September 13, 2010 (UTC)