Talk:Revan/Archive6

Revan = male?
sorry to bother, but i'm pretty much positive that revan can be female, too, depending on which gender you choose to play... Revan may be "canonically" male, but the issue is still a bone of contention among the fan base (Just type in "Revan + gender" on a KOTOR fanboard and clear your schedule). There's also the matter that, despite the canon declaration, female Revan outnumbers her "brother" by a three-to-one margin in fanfiction and fanart. While Wookieepedia does give greater weight to the canon of SW, it also includes articles on other fanon concepts and controversial issues. Would it be permissible to add mention of this controversey, or would a separate article be more appropriate? - Allronix  I know just who to ask for help with that, gents. Cheers!
 * While you can choose Revan's gender in the game, Revan is canonically male. And Wookieepedia follows canon information. -  Yoshi  626 [[Image:Yoshiegg.jpg|20px]] 01:59, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
 * And please don't start a "Exile = female?" topic in the Jedi Exile's talk page.-- Lord Oblivion Sith holocron[[Image:Oldsith.png|30px]] 03:32, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
 * We can't really argue against what has been canonically decided, but since its essentially fantasy anyway, there is nothing to say we cannot imagine our own fanon "alternate timelines" that make more sense to us. I personally like to believe that the canon situation with both Revan and the Exile is backwards: that Revan was female (and Dark Side at that) and the Exile male... as that just makes more sense to me (mostly down to narrative causality: I picked the choices that seemed most entertaining, particularly for bittersweet tragedies for Carth and Kreia respectively. There is also the matter of Revan being more cunning and calculating while the Exile seemed brash and direct)... but I don't believe for an instant that my beliefs invalidate what has been decided by other people. (I am however slightly bugged that the person who wrote that Droid book just happened to like the idea of a female Exile more). (~ SotiCoto)
 * Do you mean create an article on the controversy, or on the female Revan? (I'm opposed to both, to be honest.) -  Yoshi  626 [[Image:Yoshiegg.jpg|20px]] 03:17, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
 * An article on the controversey, mostly, with special attention paid to KOTOR fanfic and some of the gender-conditional features in the game. Honestly, the game itself seemed to lean female, since 75% of the largest dialogue tree, the second romance, and a third ending (you have to cheat a bit to get it, but it's there) were only present for female avatars. And if someone can present a better argument for a male Revan other than "Leland Chee said so, and therefore it's canon," great.
 * Well, there already is a significant section in BTS. And, like it or not, Leland Chee determines canon, and Revan is canonical male. Maybe an article covering all the gender controversies such as the Exile, Jaden Korr, and Revan could be made, but just an article on Revan's gender is not worthwhile. We at Wookieepedia document canon, not speculation. While the controversy exists, it's really not our problem except for people who try and mess up our articles. Any article made on the controversy would likely be very opinionated, which is the opposite of what we try and do here. Atarumaster88  [[Image:Jedi_Order.jpg|20px]] ( Audience Chamber ) 15:38, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Thought so. Frankly, male Exile played better as well. Brianna has a fuller backstory and better-defined character arc than Mical, going from the weakest and shunned one of her sisters to someone who can take pride and strength in herself. Atris's hostility takes on some interesting angles, too, and the sheer rancor she holds towards Exile makes a bit more sense. As a bonus, you get Kreia's creepiest line ever. Jaden Korr is probably the only one that truly favors neither.
 * I think our Sexes page is the best spot for that, and it already touches on it a bit. As for the Jaden situation... well, it's the "laziest" game difference, in that the only character change whatsoever between male and female is the voice. No difference at all between species. -BaronGrackle 20:12, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Honestly, the game itself seemed to lean female,[...]Frankly, male Exile played better as well. Both of these statements are opinion. Not fact. -  Yoshi  626 [[Image:Yoshiegg.jpg|20px]] 06:53, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
 * OK, it's speculation and opinion that Exile works better male. I'll grant that. The game's such a mess that it makes my head ache just trying to piece together the loose ends on the plot (not to mention rebooting my deck when the game's bugs crash it) no matter how it plays. As for the question about the controversey, Yoshi answered it adequately.
 * I agree with Atarumaster88. If an article has to be created on the controversy, it should be for every gender customizable character, not just Revan. -  Yoshi  626 [[Image:Yoshiegg.jpg|20px]] 20:35, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Has anyone ever tried clicking on I do not wish to discuss Revan in KOTOR 2 and saw the results. -- Yoshi  626  08:03, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
 * From the article:

If you have bastila as a party member, it only makes sence for Revan to be a male.
 * How so? Bastila is the female Revans party member also. I'm not argueing the damn canon (as much as I despise it) but what's your basis on that theory? -- Redemption [[Image:Redemptionusersymbol.png|25px]] Talk 02:25, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

It just makes sense if Revan was a male, considering everything in the Star Wars Universe since most of the heroes are males in general, that's why people were actually pissed when the Exile was female.
 * It makes sense because everyone else is? What kind of logic is that? If anything, it just gives a reason why Revan shouldn't have been made male...-- Redemption [[Image:Redemptionusersymbol.png|20px]] Talk 23:43, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Enough. Wookieepedia isn't a place for arguing whether or not Revan should or shouldn't be male. He simply is. Case closed. - Sikon 08:33, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Recent mask edits
Compare the final image with the other two. Divided into four areas&mdash;center, top, left, and right&mdash;with strange emblems (writings?) on each. No T visor at all, much less a glowing one. In fact, there doesn't even appear to be any opening for the user's eyes. All this considered, I don't think we have to be idiots to presume that the Shadows and Light mask more closely resembles Revan's trademark than the game-available alternative. If the folk in charge want to retcon it as Uthar's Sith mask to make it aesthetically compatibble with the game, then that's their business. I personally think it was a mistake of the game designers to not make the mask part of Revan's robes (ala the Sith Armor, Sand People Clothing, and Mandalorian Assault Armor), but that's my business. -BaronGrackle 20:47, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Arkanian Binders (or Force Binders - both use same model) was the mask I was referring to. Exactly like what was seen in Shadows and Light (just tinted blue). -- Redemption [[Image:Redemptionusersymbol.png|25px]] Talk 20:57, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Ah, that does make more sense, and it explains why the comic's image did look vaguely familiar to me. But I don't think any image model for those appears in the original KOTOR...? -BaronGrackle 21:06, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Everything in that panel is possible to be. Only differences are lightsaber hilt and the hooded robe - which are game mechanics. Game couldn't create robes that flow properly like in K2. -- Redemption [[Image:Redemptionusersymbol.png|25px]] Talk 21:19, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
 * BaronGrackle, it's possible to get that yellowed visored mask in the first KoTOR. I remember wearing it on the Star Forge. --  I need a name  ( Complain here ) 22:37, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Is it hidden somewhere? I've looked through every item on this page here, and while it doesn't have images, I think I remember the models for everything listed. -BaronGrackle 04:49, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
 * My bad. It's called a Vacuum mask. How odd that the player could only obtain it if the PC chooses the Dark Side...game mechanic or conflicting sources? -- Redemption [[Image:Redemptionusersymbol.png|25px]] Talk 20:45, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

NPOV
This article seems to assume that the Jedi Council outright removed Revan's previous memories, rather than simply inserting new ones into a dead mind. Bastila says that Revan's mind was destroyed shortly after the Revelation scene, and as such this would indicate that they simply inserted new things into a nearly blank slate. Also, terms like brainwashing are highly charged and POV, and we don't use such charged terms on articles like Galactic Empire, slavery, Palpatine, Anakin Skywalker, or even Rancor. Therefore, I'm slapping the NPOV tag on this until it is edited for a more objective analysis of the subjects life. Lord Patrick 22:54, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
 * There. I can find no more reference to brain washing, or to the Council's intentional mind-wiping. Let me know if you see anything else. Maclimes Zero''' (talk) [[Image:Infinite_Empire.png|10px]] 23:04, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

quotes
there should be a wiki quotes section there was alot of talk about his skill and how much poeple respected him.

Done Lord Patrick 21:57, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Good job, Patrick. :) -- Yoshi  626 [[Image:Yoshiegg.jpg|20px]] 06:43, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

force talents
I thjink we should put together section that talks about how strong he was I know there is little info but ther eise some. I have been reading about revan past and have played both games and we could have a section mybe not a long one but we could have one. So anyone who know anything of revans force powers please add it here.74.138.90.121 22:37, 13 January 2007 (UTC)tonyman1989
 * It wouldn't work. Thanks to game mechanics there are just too many varibles for us to consider. It's best just leaving the section out entirely because it would spark an endless debate. [[Image:DarthAbeonisSig2.gif|Jasca Ducato]] Sith Council Sith Campaign 08:57, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

But we do have some confirmed force talents74.138.90.121 23:17, 15 January 2007 (UTC)tonyman1989
 * Not really. Only real powers we have are the ones he would use in the vision in the tomb and that wouldn't be considered all that accurate since it was a vision. Though here is what he is capable of throwing at the player if it's any consolation:


 * Throw Lightsaber
 * Mind Trick (can't use it on player but oh well)
 * Force Speed
 * Life Drain
 * Destroy Droid
 * Force Shield (protect from all Force attacks)
 * Force Push
 * Heal
 * Force Lightening
 * Energy Resistence (protect from all basic attacks)

-- Redemption  Talk 23:45, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Don't forget Revan could also use Force Choke, it's the only actual Force power we see pre-amnesia Revan use when Bastila's strike team confronted him. Master Kavar 04:06, 16 January 2007 (UTC)


 * If we say anything about that, though, it would have to be said that he once knew Force Choke. After his amnesia, he forgot absolutely every Force power and had to learn them all over again.Darth Ceratis 23:58, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Don't most Jedi come with a bunch of "generic" Force Powers anyway? Unless it's a really notable one like Battle Meditation I don't think they deserve to be mentioned Lalala la 00:10, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, of course, in KOTOR II even Battle Meditation somehow becomes average. In your game it is possible for the Exile, Kreia, Visas, Atton, Mira, Bao-Dur, the Disciple, and the Handmaiden (if male) to all become absolute masters of Battle Meditation. So much for how hard the first game worked to hype it up. ::le sigh:: -BaronGrackle 16:33, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Not exactly. Bastilas battle meditation rallied entire fleets. As far as we know, Exile and her party could only rally allies in a certain area. -- Redemption [[Image:Redemptionusersymbol.png|20px]] Talk 22:34, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

"Comparison with Anakin Skywalker"
This HAS to go. Blatant original research. "Many have noticed..." - who are those "many"? Where are the sources? - Sikon 18:42, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I've changed it to "Comparisons have been made between...". I think some of the section is a bit silly; their attire as dark lords isn't really that similar at all, but the rest is perfectly fine. It was a lot worse at one point.(Ulicus 15:23, 21 January 2007 (UTC))

"As for his powers, he was perhaps the closest stated in the current canon (Legacy of the Force) as the perfect practitioner of both Jedi/Sith powers, who wasn't truly influenced by the dark or light powers. If the hypothesis of his character to be a lesser evil so he can save the Republic from a bigger threat is true, he would be somewhere in between Jacen Solo and Anakin Skywalker steps of becoming the idealistic Sith user who was not influenced by greed or the one-sided judgment from the light side."

The above paragraph betrays the misunderstanding that the Jedi and the Sith use a different force instead of merely using it in a different manner; this is the path to the dark side. The "one-sided judgment" exists on both sides of the force, but while Jedi teach you can only be good if you use the force for good, the Sith teaches that you can be good while employing the force in evil ways. Maybe Anakin and Revan, and most who are seduced by the dark side of the force, once wanted to accomplish honorable goals, but "once you start down the dark path forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will." (Jedi Master Yoda)
 * I agree that the above statement needs to go, it's blatantly biased and POV (the ideal Sith? Jedi are one sided? According to whom?), it's not for the same reasons you stated. The Force is devided into Light and Dark, they are different Forces. What you're describing is the Pontium which has already been stated as false. Master Kavar 03:03, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Reverted. What a load of drivel. (Ulicus 15:39, 8 February 2007 (UTC))

Interesting that it (the Force) is typically referred to as the Dark Side or Light Side of "THE FORCE" ("THE" indicating ONE), instead of "the Dark Force" and "the Light Force." If you take a coin, it has two distinct sides, but it is still only one coin. Thus, many are seduced when they feel that in order to understand the Force, they must become familiar with both sides of the one coin.
 * Point? The fact is that, while there ARE comparisons to be made with Jacen Solo and Revan (namely their love of knowledge and desire to give the galaxy order through the Sith teachings), the stuff written in the article was fanon and speculation and has no place on The Wook. Sorry. (Ulicus 19:26, 9 February 2007 (UTC))

Point taken.

The beginning of the article.
I think the beginning of the article is quite dull,and doesn't resemble Revans true power.He was not just a jedi knight that turned to the dark side during Mandalorian Wars,but he was the strongest force user of his time,and maybe in the whole Star Wars history.I think it must be complitely changed.
 * Ugh. This is an encyclopedia, not a gusher's fan site. We're meant to be objective here, and there's no canonical evidence to suggest Revan is the most powerful Force user ever. The intro's fine as it is - \\Captain Kwenn// &mdash; Ahoy! 19:08, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Omg,he may not be the strongest in the whole history,but he was at his time.If it is encyclopedia,why then Anakins page begins with "Anakin Skywalker was a legendary male Human Jedi Knight in the waning days of the Jedi Order who was believed to be the Chosen One.Bla Bal Bal."I think it is not fair,cos Revan just like Anakin was "The Chosen One" of his era!
 * No, it's different. Anakin fulfilled the "Chosen One" prophecy, thus earning him the title of "Chosen One". 22:16, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Kwenn is right. I'd go as far to say that Anakin shouldn't be referred to as a "legendary" Jedi Knight on his page either, as it's completely POV. Besides, Revan's great aptitude for the Force is already covered in the "Comparison with Anakin Skywalker" section and his other abilities are gone over in the talents section. Revan was the most naturally gifted Force pracitioner of his era - not of all time - and he may not have been the most powerful of his era. Both the Exile and Nihilus, with their karked up natures, are challengers for this title. (Ulicus 14:30, 21 January 2007 (UTC))
 * What is the point of this? We have no "power scale" chart for Force users. So DR had a brilliant mind and was incredibly charismatic. Hurrah for him. Is it not enough that Revan was one of the more "unique" Jedi in Star Wars? Karohalva 06:46, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Nihilus was not the most powerful of his era considering the fact that all he caused was pure destruction sitting on his Star Wars version of the Flying Dutchman; he was clearly a for-the-game manifestation with no significant history before him or legacy. And the Exile? I mean c'mon, she played a key role in the Mandalorian Wars and shortly after but she is way out of Revan's league - definitely not worthy of the title. Moreover, if Revan was clearly stated as being the most powerful Force user then someone should post the reference and it should be added in the article (when I played the KOTOR games and from my general experience with the old republic era I think Revan was at least supposed to be the strongest in the Force if not impied to be). However, if the description "legendary" is not removed from the Skywalker/Vader article then Revan should also get it, since their accomplishments and power are alike; "Comparison with Anakin Skywalker" is just not enough.
 * Nihilus' history has no bearing on whether or not he was powerful. In terms of raw displayed power, he surpassed Revan (and ever other documented Sith) significantly. By the end of KotOR II, the Exile is declared by several characters to be Revan's equal - if not superior, due to her strange way of accessing the Force. I have no doubt that Revan is the most *naturally* gifted Force sensitive of his era, but both Nihilus and the Exile are unnatural in the way they access the Force. I do, however, agree that if "legendary" is not removed from the Anakin Skywalker article, then it should be added to Revan's (and Malak's). (Ulicus 15:43, 8 February 2007 (UTC))
 * Whether or not a Jedi/Sith is a "more powerful" Force user is really not important. It's how someone makes use of their potential that really shows their value and worth. For example, think of Obi-Wan Kenobi. Although moderately powerful (not a Yoda or Anakin), he has more impact upon the fate of the galaxy with the exception of few others. Revan's worth likewise isn't merely the result of being a powerful Force user. His machinations (for good or ill) shaped the Galaxy for millennia. Vryce 07:08, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Action Figure
According to the Wilrow Hood article, Revan won the Hasbro action figure poll and will therefore be made an action figure. I couldn't verify this for certain, but if they do make a figure mightn't that shed some light on some of these issues that haven't been resolved? Just a thought.Darth Ceratis 23:53, 22 January 2007 (UTC) There is a much, much greater chance that the figure will simply be "Darth Revan", and be clad in the customary robes with a non-removable mask. I wouldn't get excited. (Ulicus 19:54, 24 January 2007 (UTC))
 * And what issues would that be? -- Redemption [[Image:Redemptionusersymbol.png|20px]] Talk 03:34, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Oh, I don't know. It'll depend on exactly how they make the action figure. Maybe it'll have a removable mask. Might come with a second lightsaber that isn't his Sith one. There's so many not-quite-resolved issues about canon elements of Revan's appearance it just seems likely that something might be addressed.Darth Ceratis 03:47, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Hmm... those are pretty valid points. It could finally show a canon model of Revan's face, and maybe even show an accurate version of his lightsaber, Sith or not. But, until then, it's all conjecture. 03:50, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Chances are that they won't come up with a canon face so don't count on that. -- Redemption [[Image:Redemptionusersymbol.png|20px]] Talk 03:58, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, if they include a removable mask, then they have to make a face. And, since we don't have any canon face pics, that face would be considered canon. Unless I'm mistaken... 04:00, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
 * IF they do. There is no guarantee that they will. I really doubt it since Hasbro is more concerned about satisfying fans with various "play options" rather then staying in what has been declared canon. -- Redemption [[Image:Redemptionusersymbol.png|20px]] Talk 04:27, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I understand your point. I wasn't implying that "OMG their finally going to reveal Revans face OMGOMGOMGOMG!!1!1!" like that, but instead in the form of "Well, we'll see what happens. If they do follow canon and show a face, etc." 05:41, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, I think that, because of the very nature of what Revan is (ie, a customizable character who can be light or dark) then it's likely they would make an action figure that can be either as well, which would involve the ability to remove the mask and to have Jedi and Sith lightsabers.Darth Ceratis 20:23, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
 * You're probably right, but one can still hope. I guess we'll find out in a few months.Darth Ceratis 21:05, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Even if the Revan action figure came with a Jedi lightsaber(s) and a face under the mask, would that really make that version of Revan canon? Master Kavar 00:44, 25 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Weak cannon, but cannon nonetheless. I believe it would be considered cannon unless it ever gets trumped by something bigger.
 * I thought Revan was a person, not a heavy weapon. But jokes aside, I agree with Ulicus. At best, the figure will probably have a switchable lightsaber. Lord Patrick 01:02, 6 February 2007 (UTC)