Talk:Revan/Archive7

"Revan never really fell"- canon?
I hate to bring up NPOV again, but where is it stated that Kreia and other's speculations that Revan was trying to "protect" the Galaxy by conquering it become canon? The first source, Kreia, both has a bias towards her favourite student and is about as much a reliable source on morality as Palpatine. The second source, GO-TO, is a droid, and may simply be projecting his own mission upon Revan, in a conspiracy theory-esque way (Indeed, GO-TO is known for his general pompousness and self importance, so I hardly think projecting his thoughts onto that of someone else is beyond him). The third source, Mical, is a Jedi historian with little to no experience of the Jedi Civil War, and is stated even by Kreia to be naieve. The fourth, HK-47, is even less of a reliable source on morality than Kreia, and in any case it's perfectly possible that Darth Revan may have wanted to eliminate those who would disrupt his new Empire.

Carth Onasi, a man who served in both the Mandalorian Wars and as a very experienced soldier in the Jedi Civil War, states that "It's obvious that Malak is a ruthless tyrant who'll crush any one who stands in his way&hellip; just like [Darth] Revan was."

However, admittedly Carth Onasi did not meet Revan during the Wars, but another example of Revan's corruption is the fact that, no matter what face the player picks, Darth Revan always looks evil and deformed in the unmasking cutscene, much like the corrupted (post amnesia) DS Revan or even DS Exile from KOTOR II. Also, Malak, Revan's friend, apprentice, and second in command, states;

"All you ever imagined was an endless fleet rolling on to crush the Republic."

Darth Revan had Jedi captured and horrifically tortured to break them into Sith assassins, via one of his minions, Atton, who was an interrogator for Darth Revan and held strong anti Republic feelings even during KOTOR II. He had many of his own soldiers killed at Malachor simply for not being loyal enough. He choked a Republic officer aboard his flagship.

And lastly, to state the obvious. He. Was. The. Dark. Lord. Of. The. Sith. The. Sith. Master. The. Sidious. Of. His. Day.

EDIT: Also, the general point of KOTOR I was (canon) Revan redeeming himself from his Darth Revan past and stopping the very thing he caused. Not him ending a galaxy saving effort corrupted by his eeevil apprentice. And Darth Revan himself states things to the contrary in DB:POD. Written by his creator, no less.

As there is no canon source confirming the "Revan Never Really Fell" theory, and indeed evidence to the contrary, I think all references stating this as fact should be removed. Lord Patrick 03:48, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
 * All that proves is that nobody really knew what was going on inside Revans little head. Kreia though probably had it best. She knew him better then anyone else after all. -- Redemption [[Image:Redemptionusersymbol.png|20px]] Talk 03:51, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm having trouble finding it in the article. Does it say that Revan never fell or that s those other characters believed that he never fell. An IU point of view is not something that needs to be kept out of articles.-- Lord Oblivion Sith holocron[[Image:Oldsith.png|20px]] 04:02, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

1."Revan soon discovered the Trayus Academy, an ancient relic of the "True Sith". What actually transpired as Revan entered the Academy's halls is unknown—what is certain is that there, Revan discovered the continued existence of the "True Sith", long thought vanished, and the threat that they still presented to the Galaxy. He came to the conclusion that the Republic as it stood was ill-equipped to defend the Galaxy from such a potent enemy and, as such, a new government would need to rise in its place; an empire founded upon the Sith teachings. He would attempt to save the Galaxy through conquest. In that moment, Revan fully abandoned the teachings of the Jedi, adopting the title of Dark Lord of the Sith and becoming Darth Revan. He took Malak, now under the name of Darth Malak, as his Sith apprentice."

2."Revan's campaign, while bloody, was orchestrated to topple the Republic while doing little damage to its underlying industrial infrastructure. Under his leadership, Sith forces bypassed militarily vital planets that would be required for the defense of the Galaxy against the threat of the "True Sith". Revan's plan was to keep the Republic largely intact for the purposes of post-war rebuilding. As such, he could begin his rule with a relatively functional military and economy rather than starting from scratch. Also, had he failed in conquering the Galaxy, the end result would be much the same: a stronger Republic, more capable of defending itself. "


 * The whole "Revan never really fell" thing can be considered flavor lore, an attempt to retroactively apply Revan's redemption to his days as a Sith. For all we know, he was the kriffing Dark Lord of the Sith and started a war against the Republic. His motives are irrelevant. He would be, at best, Chaotic Neutral, if you get me. - Sikon 08:17, 9 February 2007 (UTC)


 * GAH! The article does not, repeat, DOES NOT imply that Revan did not embrace and turn to the dark side.


 * The fact that his original intentions (as heavily, heavily alluded to by Kreia, the Disciple and GO-TO, and further emphasised by Revan's own actions - going off to fight the True Sith) were to protect the galaxy in NO WAY makes him a less evil character. Anakin turned to the dark side because he was obsessed with saving Padme, he ended up destroying her. Revan turned to the dark side because he was obsessed with saving the galaxy from death, he ended up doing a hella lot more harm to it than good. It is stated numerous times in KotOR II that Revan waged war with an intent to keep the Republic's underlying infrastructure intact so that he could just sweep his new Empire into all the vacant positions and then stop relying on the Star Forge (which ends up destroying those who use it).


 * Quoting Malak is irrevelant. Malak, though powerful in his own right, knew jack-all about Revan's plans and motives. He probably didn't even know about the Sith teachings on Malachor V.


 * Likewise, the two paragraphs you've quoted do nothing to imply that Revan wasn't a dark sider - you are aware that Palpatine thought that *he* was 'saving' the galaxy too right? And Jacen? Same thing happening there. The fact that Revan left the underlying infrastructure intact does nothing to detract from his evil nature at this point - Palpatine left the underlying infrastructure of the Republic intact if I recall.


 * I apologise for the rant, but as someone else who firmly believes in the evil of Darth Revan, having someone claim that an article that I've contributed heavily to supports the idea that Revan *wasn't* a ruthless tyrant really kinda bugs me... you're reading stuff that isn't there. Certainly, we make a point of not using the word "fall" - but only because "fall" is the incorrect terminology in Revan's case - he turned. Atris was a fall, Revan was a turn. Kreia's argument is, at the end of the day, about semantics - she never, NEVER claims that he didn't embrace the dark side.(Ulicus 19:23, 9 February 2007 (UTC))


 * Why wouldn't Revan tell his closest friend and second in command about his plans? I know that if I was trying to enact some crazy, deluded plan to save the Galaxy by conquering it in a specific way to place it under the Third Rei.. sorry, Sith Empire to save Germa.. the Galaxy from economic depr.. the True Sith or kill trillions of soldiers in order to strengthen the Republic, I'd tell my closest associates. The fact that Malak favoured more crushing tactics may simply indicate he thought that the Republic should be outright taken over, rather than either carefully taken over or made stronger by having trillions of its fighting soldiers killed. Lord Patrick 22:43, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Revan was a Dark Lord of the Sith by the time he found out about the Star Forge - he's already dark sided and all bets are off when it comes to friendship. We find out in KotOR II that Revan is aware of what the Star Forge does to those that draw on its power directly -  Malak, since he's doing exactly that, clearly doesn't, and thus assumes that Revan didn't know since Revan wasn't using it in such a way. The whys of why Revan didn't tell Malak everything are up in the air, but the fact is that he didn't. Probably because he didn't figure he'd be dying any time soon...


 * By the way, I completely agree with you that Revan's plan was crazy and deluded - but that's what the dark side does to you. It doesn't stop it from *being* his plan however :D I mean, really, what was he thinking: "I'll protect the galaxy from the True Sith by installing a rule by the Sith"? Craziness, and futher evidence that he was heavily corrupted by the dark side.(Ulicus 23:08, 9 February 2007 (UTC))


 * When Revan became Darth Revan and when he found the first Star Map is unknown, and as such we don't know if he had became DR or even fell at that point. Indeed, it is both possible that he had already fallen or that Dantooine was a case of over curiosity (thirst for knowledge, anybody?) and subsequent corruption. Lord Patrick 10:17, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

It is heavily implied that Revan was already the Dark Lord by the end of the Mandalorian Wars - Immediately, not several weeks, after the battle of Malachor, the Sith teachings begin sweeping through the rank and file of his forces. The implication is that he's been preparing to unleash them upon his forces for some time. Likewise, the entire point of the battle of Malachor V was to kill off all those who wouldn't embrace his Sith ways and a great portion of the entire war, as Kreia indicated, was a war of conversion - with Revan getting people to place him above both the Republic and the Jedi Order.

That said, it doesn't even matter *when* Revan became the Sith Lord or found the Dantooine Star Map, as we know for fact which *order* they occured in. We can say with more or less certainty that Revan was already the Dark Lord in actions if not in name by the time he found Dantooine. In KotOR II we learn that he discovered the location of Korriban from Malachor, which means that he must have studied the Sith knowledge on Malachor before he found the Star Map on Dantooine (which also has the location of Korriban).

Have a little faith :), the article isn't perfect, but it has been through a ridiculous number of revisions and has been helped put together by rigourously combing through pretty much every sound file from both games.

Besides, you've moved on completely from your original points, which were that this article implies that Revan didn't turn to the dark side (though you used the 'fall' terminology, which is fair enough) and wasn't ruthless or tyrannical. Which it doesn't.

Moving on from the semantics of fell/turn (lets just say they're the same for now), the title of this subsection you've created is, "Revan never really fell canon?" The article doesn't not say this, nor does it imply it for the majority - it's just something you're incorrectly inferred from it. (Ulicus 12:25, 10 February 2007 (UTC))

It implies it due to the fact it mentions as fact the "Revan conquered the Republic to save it from the "True Sith"" theory. As for heavily alluded too, none of these are infallible sources. GO-TO never even met Revan, and was born several years after the Jedi Civil War was over. Kreia was essentialy a cross with Vergere and a female Sidious, and probably is in denial that her own teachings caused Revan to fall. Mical is a naieve historian with little experience with the man or his and Malak's war. These people are not infallible sources, and never has their speculations been declared canon in any licensed work IIRC. Lord Patrick 20:38, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I have already countered every single one of those points. Why are you forcing me to repeat myself? And, yet again, you have not acknowledged that Revan himself - through his actions - supports that there is a "threat beyond the Galaxy", or did you not notice that he wasn't present for KotOR 2?


 * The "Revan conquered the Republic to save the galaxy from the True Sith" theory does not imply that Revan didn't turn to the dark side. I have already explained why. Have you never heard the saying; "The road to hell is paved with good intentions"? Because, by your current reasoning, it appears not.


 * Allow me to also say that challenging the canonocity of the "True Sith Defence" theory is an entirely different thing from telling us that this article implies that Revan never turned to the dark side. Ok? It is completely separate. They have no bearing on each other, because it doesn't matter why Revan turned to the dark side - since canonically he did turn to the dark side. Not a single person has ever argued different. Not even Kreia.


 * I reiterate: Kreia was arguing semantics and stating her *belief*. She argued that Revan didn't fall, not that Revan didn't turn. A fall is an accident; Atris fell. A turn is deliberate; Anakin Skywalker turned (though he had been falling). Both involve giving into the dark side, so most don't make a distinction - but that doesn't stop there from being a distinction. No character, in the entirety of KotOR 2, claims that Revan wasn't darksided. Not a single one. And, lets not forget that Kreia is herself a Sith Lord and was probably wrong in her belief that Revan turned "out of neccessity". He could have warned the Republic, he could have done all sorts of things - the fact that he chose the Sith teachings to "save the Galaxy" proves that he was a twisted individual by that point - it does not challenge it.


 * One of the most well documented things about the dark side is that it makes those who give in to it delusional. They think they're bringing peace, or that they're good, or that they're justified in their actions - but they never are. Darth Revan was a darksider. The article does nothing to imply otherwise - all it does is discuss his possible motivations for going dark.


 * Now, on to the "True Sith defence" theory. It is supported by Kreia, Mical and GO-TO in KotOR 2 and also by Revan himself - why would he disappear to battle a non-existant threat? Canderous also supports the notion that the True Sith exist, in KotOR I and cut dialog from KotOR 2. Are the first three wholly reiable sources? Of course not. What source is? But they're far more reliable than you're making them out to be.


 * Mical and GO-TO (I'm more inclined to trust the findings of the latter since he is a supercomputer) discover, from a lot of study of his strategies as well as the course of the Jedi Civil War, that Revan's attacks were patterned in such a way to leave a lot of the Republic's underlying infrastructure intact (Sidious did exactly the same thing politically. Would you say that implied that he wasn't evil?) They didn't destroy key industrial, weapon/ship producing planets, they captured them. This is because Revan is fully aware of what happens to those who draw upon the Star Forge's power too heavily (as we are told by Bastila in a holocron if we say Revan was evil) and knows he cannot rely on it forever. They theorise that he was preparing for a larger war, against an even greater threat. Otherwise he WOULD have employed far more brutal tactics.


 * Kreia and Revan (as supported by his actions and Canderous' dialog) believe that there IS a greater threat and that they know what it is. The True Sith. Revan has studied on Malachor V perhaps more extensively than anyone. If the True Sith were still around, he would know. Combine this with the strategies Darth Revan employed in the JCW and, voila, you have an explanation.


 * Of course, the only problem you seem to have with the "True Sith Defence" isn't that it doesn't make sense (which it makes a hella lot of) but that it supposedly means that Revan wasn't an evil Sith Lord in his own right... which is just wrong. Sure, he didn't think of himself as evil, but neither did Palpatine or Jacen Solo.(Ulicus 20:50, 22 February 2007 (UTC))

Revan and Sion
Is Sion more powerful then Revan, or was just hoping he was. Because he went down pretty easy. I didn't even break his will the first time and still won. No of course not. Sion was a disgrace to all sith lords. Unlike you I broke his will.I use fear on him and it work! On a sith lord. He is nowhere near Revan.
 * This is not a forum. Take this elsewhere. -- Redemption [[Image:Redemptionusersymbol.png|20px]] Talk 22:45, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Rino Romano fan mod
What is the source for this? Also, how could you have him being heard with R.R.'s voice, unless they somehow tracked down the man and got him to record thousands of voice lines? Or is it an imitation? Also, is it really notable? Lord Patrick 00:37, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Unless I'm mistaken, all that's been said is that Rino Romano provides the lines for Revan that are voiced. For example:
 * "Yes?", "What?", "I'm here", "Not a problem", "Urgh. Poison", "Now that must have hurt" - etc. Personally I hated his take on "Revan", so I deleted the sound files. I much preferred Obsidian's "Mute Route".(Ulicus 01:23, 24 February 2007 (UTC))
 * Uh, ok *embarrassed* I just read the new addition to the article... sorry. My bad. Yeah, that seems really strange... and fake. Weirdness. I'd support its deletion unless someone can actually prove it's real.(Ulicus 01:24, 24 February 2007 (UTC))

Brian Ching Pic
The Brian Ching pic, though awesome, is fanart and is therefore not actually allowed on the page... now, I'm all for it staying... but if it does, isn't there somewhere better it can go? It looks a bit iffy in its current position. At least at my resolution. (Ulicus 20:14, 27 February 2007 (UTC))
 * It's been deleted (like it has been several times). --Imp 20:25, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
 * How is it fan art? Brian Ching is an official artist, he's used in various comics. Is it because it's not used in a canonical document (such as a comic)? [[Image:DarthAb.gif|Jasca Ducato]] Sith Council Sith Campaign 20:30, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah Jasca, you hit the nail on the head. Until it appears in a canonical source it's fan art, sadly. (Ulicus 21:35, 27 February 2007 (UTC))