Talk:Palpatine/Archive3

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If it weren't for the merge...

 * I find it interesting that all of this debate would never have happened if it weren't for the initial merging of Palpatine and Darth Sidious. If they were still separate, then we would be able to put known facts about Palpy in his article, and leave Sidious' vague. – Aidje talk 06:33, 4 Sep 2005 (UTC)
 * I have already pointed out that the merge created all the problem. Why is Palpatine merged with Darth Sidious and Darth Vader isn't merged with Anakin Skywalker? Remember also that even after the "revelation", the two aren't merged in the Databank. --Master Starkeiller 10:10, 4 Sep 2005 (UTC)
 * We're not going through that again. -- Riffsyphon1024 23:39, 4 Sep 2005 (UTC)
 * Indeed, we're going through something even worse. I know that the previous decision stands and that we don't need to do another vote on that. I just find it interesting that this debate would never have happened if we had left them separate. The issues coming up now are the very ones that I foresaw when I voted to keep the articles separate. Anyway, it's a moot point; sorry to bring it up. – Aidje talk 03:16, 5 Sep 2005 (UTC)

McDiarmid said it, not George Lucas
Look at that neck, man. If not anything else, look at the neck. Is that guy 63 years old? --Master Starkeiller 16:41, 4 Sep 2005 (UTC)
 * According to Starkeiller's article posted above, the whole VERY OLD thing seems to be something that Ian McDiarmid said, not George Lucas. According to this very article, all George said is "In a sense, your eyes are contact lenses". The rest seems to be only McDiarmid's interpretation of that. George Lucas has still never stated, or even implied, that Sidious may be older than what Palpatine appears. Palpatine is OFFICIALLY said to be 50 in The Phantom Menace, and for people to believe that he may have been older is SPECULATION ONLY.--Azizlight 15:33, 4 Sep 2005 (UTC)
 * You know how I see it? Like I see an egg. All evidence points out it is an egg, like the ones we eat for breakfast. And an "Official Source" of some kind comes and tells me, "No, that's no egg, that's a mousepad". Am I supposed to believe the guy? People, just look at the wrinkles! The WRINKLES! --Master Starkeiller 16:03, 4 Sep 2005 (UTC)
 * Give it up, man. Kuralyov 16:21, 4 Sep 2005 (UTC)
 * No please, just look at his neck. Just look at it. As a favor. Here: http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b153/Starkeiller/MasterandApprentice.jpg.
 * He could be a relatively young man with some sort of skin disease or scarring from Force lightning or Dark Side overuse (which is what our article currently says, as backed up by the Databank entries for Palpatine and Sidious.) &mdash; Silly Dan  18:19, 4 Sep 2005 (UTC)
 * Dark Side overuse has something to do with his face, his brows and cheeks look unnatural, this was estabilished in Dark Empire. But in Dark Empire, his last clone looked like he did in R.o.t.S. when it had aged to the point he was about to die. It's obvious this guy's old. It's clear to me. Anyway, that's why the "Old Republic records" is great. He COULD be old, he COULD be young. It covers both and is indirectly supported by an official source. Everyone is happy, the page is unlocked, the debate is over and this pages stops growing longer and longer... --Master Starkeiller 19:32, 4 Sep 2005 (UTC)

Ending this mess
Right here, I will finalize what will be inserted into the article. The text is as follows:


 * The c. in front of 82 BBY so that the year is given, but just in case its not entirely right, then noone has a problem with it.


 * The Old Republic records sentence can be added as long as it in a IU perspective and NPOV.
 * I'll add it if you explain what I.U. an perspective is N.P.O.V.. Is, "According to Old Republic records, Palpatine was born 82 BBY on Naboo, but everything else about his past, including his ancestry, immediate family members, and upbringing, have mysteriously vanished" fine? It's perfectly neutral the info is from the Ep. III Visual Guide. Also, we'll have to add it in the 82 BBY page. Is, "According to Old Republic records, Palpatine, on Naboo" under the "Births" category fine? --Master Starkeiller 11:13, 5 Sep 2005 (UTC)
 * IU == In Universe (i.e., say "During the last days of the Galactic Republic" instead of "During the prequel trilogy"). NPOV == Neutral point of view.  &mdash; Silly Dan  12:35, 5 Sep 2005 (UTC)
 * Done! --Master Starkeiller 13:41, 5 Sep 2005 (UTC)


 * Any comments needed in Behind the Scenes regarding Ian McDiarmid.
 * From the interview? --Master Starkeiller 12:06, 5 Sep 2005 (UTC)


 * His height should also be addressed in the BTS section because of conflicting sources, however in the infobox, the most seen height will be used.
 * We could also do the same thing the Essential Guide to Characters Guide does --have both-- since I lately see the 1.78 meters info more and more. --Master Starkeiller 12:06, 5 Sep 2005 (UTC)


 * Any other sentences you might have needed to add.
 * Yeah, I have worked a "refined" version of the article with more or longer sentences when it was locked. It'll make the article slightly bigger and will add more detailed info. --Master Starkeiller 11:18, 5 Sep 2005 (UTC)
 * Done. It's slightly longer now. I also made the circumstances of his "Sithing" a little more neutral. --Master Starkeiller 15:44, 5 Sep 2005 (UTC)

I will now unlock this page, but I must see that these rules are followed. -- Riffsyphon1024 03:34, 5 Sep 2005 (UTC)


 * At last! Unlocked! --Master Starkeiller 11:13, 5 Sep 2005 (UTC)
 * Praise the Force! Or Yun-Yuuzhan if you prefer. The Great Edit War is over! -- SFH 16:05, 5 Sep 2005 (UTC)
 * Praise Waru and K'khruk's Hat! They combined their powers to end this war! --Master Starkeiller 19:22, 5 Sep 2005 (UTC)

It's great that this page has been unlocked; it's now open to contributions regarding aspects of it not discussed in the talk page...but how will we keep people from adding "Secret de facto leader of the Separatists" or another bogus non-existing title not possesed by anyone else to the succession boxes? I think all the present titles in the boxes are necessary, but anymore would be excessive...
 * Uh, he was the secret de facto leader of the Separatists. Cmdr. J. Nebulax 21:09, 5 Sep 2005 (UTC)
 * The point is 1) "Secret de facto leader" is not an official title and 2) No one else ever held this position, so succession is irrelevant&mdash;no one succeeded anybody. – Aidje talk 21:43, 5 Sep 2005 (UTC)
 * That's why we never put the succession box back in for that. There was no need. But, in all truth, he was the secret leader of the CIS. Now you know that's true. Cmdr. J. Nebulax 22:13, 5 Sep 2005 (UTC)
 * Yeah, he was secret de facto leader of the Separatists... I mean, it's obvious, right? "Yeeessssss, Looord Sidiousssssssssssssssssssssss...", you know? Every high-ranking Separatist answers to him and "secret de facto leader" is the best title possible for something like that. It isn't needed in the succession box 'cause it's a secret title and he was the only person to have been secret de facto leader of the Separatists, no preceding, no succession. --Master Starkeiller 12:04, 6 Sep 2005 (UTC)
 * If you leave it entirely out of the article, someone will continue to add it, so it should be placed within the text and made clear that it is not an official title. -- Riffsyphon1024 14:19, 6 Sep 2005 (UTC)
 * Yes, I agree. Even though it was Palpatine/Sidious's title in the Confederacy of Independent Systems, we should state it is like an "unofficial" title. Cmdr. J. Nebulax 19:36, 6 Sep 2005 (UTC)

Seperation between Expanded and Film canon
I feel that expanded universe material in this article specifically _needs_ to be seperated because there are many Star Wars fans out there&mdash;myself among them&mdash;who believe that much of what the EU has to say about Palpatine's continuing existence after ROTJ is blasphemy. If Palpatine survives ROTJ, then the prequels and Vader's return to the Light Side are completely pointless; knowing how things turn out in the EU makes watching ROTJ completely anti-climactic. I believe that film canon is film canon and overrules all other, so in my opinion Palpatine is definitively destroyed along with the entire Dark Side (as prophesied in the prequels) when Darth Vader dies and Anakin is reborn.

This opinion does not need to be expressed in the article, but I feel that the article doesn't leave any room for that opinion because it makes no seperation between film and EU canon. &mdash;qrc
 * What fans think doesn't change the fact that Dark Empire is considered canon by LFL. It's even one of the few EU pieces that Lucas actually likes. Since no other article separates film information form EU information, there's no reason to do it here. Kuralyov 20:37, 6 Sep 2005 (UTC)
 * We have already neutralized the Dark Empire part of the article with the, "Darth Sidious, once the greatest Dark Lord of the Sith, was finally dead". It is considered canon, so the best thing we could do is neutralize it more --if this is possible-- or add something Behind the Scenes. --Master Starkeiller 21:04, 6 Sep 2005 (UTC)
 * Why seperate anything? Are you suggesting we should have dividers between film canon and EU canon just because some fans don't like Dark Empire? Some fans don't like the EU period, must we have dividers on  every page  just because of a few opinions? No thank you. Demented Smiloid 21:34, 6 Sep 2005 (UTC)
 * This wiki is based on canon alone, not the whims of the fans, and more likely the fanboys. We won't change the chronological layout just because someone doesn't believe in the EU. -- Riffsyphon1024 22:10, 6 Sep 2005 (UTC)
 * We should add a section to Dark Empire describing how some fans disliked it.-LtNOWIS 01:44, 7 Sep 2005 (UTC)
 * And one describing G.L. liked it. --Master Starkeiller 10:45, 7 Sep 2005 (UTC)
 * If you want "seperation", then don't read the Palpatine Reborn (10 ABY to 11 ABY) section. It's already seperated into sections anyway - it's quite obvious where the film stuff ends and the EU stuff begins. --Azizlight 11:07, 7 Sep 2005 (UTC)

Endless
Goddamn, does this never end. People, particularly an anon and Starkeiiler are adding and removing the years and the succession box. Starkeiller alone has over 30 edits on this page in the last 3 days. Must I have to reprotect this page? More so, do you need to learn how to use the preview button? -- Riffsyphon1024 18:27, 7 Sep 2005 (UTC)
 * If I have done a mistake, I come back to correct it. That's why I edit so much? Where is the problem with that? Does the number of edits affect anything? --Master Starkeiller 19:19, 7 Sep 2005 (UTC)

Picture
This may be nitpicking, but could we get a picture of Palpatine hooded and cloaked in the character box? I mean, when you think of Emperor Palpatine, what comes to mind: Elderly, grandfather like statesman, or the Dark Lord of the Sith? -- SFH 14:14, 14 Sep 2005 (UTC) Palpy = http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b153/Starkeiller/sidious1024x7688uv.jpg. But it's not a really problem, is it? --Master Starkeiller 18:29, 14 Sep 2005 (UTC)
 * But the current image does portray him as both. He is in his Supreme Chancellor clothing, but he has that sneer of evil on his face, and seeing how Episode III was his transitional phase, I think the picture suits his character well. -- Riffsyphon1024 17:58, 14 Sep 2005 (UTC)
 * I suppose you're right. Just a thought. -- SFH 18:20, 14 Sep 2005 (UTC)
 * The current one is nice, but it's not the real Palpy.
 * Uh, I was thinking something like Palpatine on Death Star II...and preferably one that didn't get so upclose to his scars. -- SFH 18:37, 14 Sep 2005 (UTC)

What the Holocron says
For what's it worth, from the weblog of Leland Chee, and the dates of character births in the Holocron continuity database -

(By the way - ages with fractions, you round the BBY dates up to the nearest year, and the ABY ones down to the nearest year).


 * -896 Yoda
 * ~ -600 Jabba the Hutt
 * ~ -200 Chewbacca
 * -102 Count Dooku
 * -92 Qui-Gon Jinn
 * -82 Palpatine
 * -72 Mace Windu
 * -66 Jango Fett
 * -57 Obi-Wan Kenobi
 * -46 Padmé Amidala
 * -41.9 Anakin Skywalker
 * -32 Star Wars: Episode I The Phantom Menace
 * -31.5 Boba Fett
 * -31 Lando Calrissian
 * -29 Han Solo
 * -22 Star Wars: Episode II Attack of the Clones
 * -21 Wedge Antilles
 * -19 Star Wars: Episode III Revenge of the Sith
 * -19 Luke Skywalker & Princess Leia
 * -18 Corran Horn
 * -18 Mara Jade Skywalker
 * 0 Star Wars: Episode IV A New Hope
 * 3 Star Wars: Episode V The Empire Strikes Back
 * 4 Star Wars: Episode VI Return of the Jedi
 * 9 Jaina & Jacen Solo
 * 10 Anakin Solo
 * 26.5 Ben Skywalker

Link

If this makes any difference. QuentinGeorge 10:36, 17 Sep 2005 (UTC)
 * Whatever... Let's keep it as it is and we'll be fine. --Master Starkeiller 11:09, 17 Sep 2005 (UTC)
 * Um, no. This is the statement of the official keeper of Star Wars continuity. If he says Palpatine was born in 82 BBY, then that's when he was born. If he meant that Palpatine was born circa 82 BBY, then he would have added in a "~." 82 BBY is the official date of Palpatine's birht, we finally have an incontrovertible source. Kuralyov 17:44, 20 Sep 2005 (UTC)
 * Couldn't he have said this earlier so we could have avoided this stupid edit war and all the nasty thing that were said because of it? Ah well, I might as well get used to the damn date... I might even start to like it since it seems to be final... If he was only 64 when his face was deformed by the Dark Side to the level he looked like he was a thousand years old and he had to hide his true face, he is the most powerful Force user ever... And if the official keeper of Star Wars Continuity that is responsible for so many helpful ret-cons says so, what can I say? --Master Starkeiller 15:33, 20 Sep 2005 (EDT)
 * I say who gives a damn about it anymore. Case closed. -- Riffsyphon1024 21:22, 20 Sep 2005 (EDT)

Dantius Schmantius

 * Is there some way to stop all of these constant additions of this StuporShadow poodoo to the article? jSarek 21:39, 21 Sep 2005 (UTC)
 * Silly Dan left him a message. Lets give this user a day. After that, if he keeps it up I say we block him. --SFH 17:44, 21 Sep 2005 (EDT)
 * The thing is, it's not just one user; Looking through the edit history, at least three anons have made the change in the past two days. jSarek 21:50, 21 Sep 2005 (UTC)
 * Really? We may be experiencing a SuperShadow invasion. Meditate on this, I will... -- SFH 22:02, 21 Sep 2005 (UTC)

Thank you fellow users for backing me up. Oh and Silly Dan, Google it! I'M NOT SUPERSHADOW! I there is a slight possibility that Dantius isn't his name but if you google it, I have got over a hundred sites to prove it. And that is mauls name. It is in books! I will keep on puting Dantius and Khameir up there! Ok, I am calm, I would gladly take Mauls real name off of there but I am sticking up for what I believe. I can fight fire with fire by here stating, I can(or get somebody to) erase everyting about Plageius becuase it was never proven to be real. The only thing there is about it is that they simply mentioned him in EP. III. They never proved it to be real. I don't know how you can say that because it is in books. I know that it is not in American books but it is in books and I would go to Italy just to prove a point! --Prince Xizor OK! You won. Just keep in mind that I am NOT sorry for what I have done and hope someday in the future someone will prove it. I do request to put the name Dantius, Cos and Albert under the behind the scenes as fanon names.
 * You should go google Supershadow, O anonymous person. &mdash; Silly Dan  23:18, 21 Sep 2005 (UTC)
 * Hopefully, this won't start another edit war. "Dantius" is not Palpatine's name, and "Khameir Sarin", although being a possible name for Maul, was never given as the official name. This is all SuperShadow crap, and, for all we know, SuperStupid himself might be the one doing all of this. Cmdr. J. Nebulax 23:29, 21 Sep 2005 (UTC)
 * Dantius is NOT Palpatine's real name! And that is not Maul's official name! Therefore, after I revert this article, I REQUEST FOR IT TO BE LOCKED. That way, our SuperShadow follower here will not be able to post up these false facts. Cmdr. J. Nebulax 23:44, 21 Sep 2005 (UTC)
 * Then you (not Cmdr. J. Nebulax, Prince Xizor) will likely be banned by one of the admins, or at least blocked from editing this page, I'm afraid. Dantius Palpatine is a fanon fabrication, and all of the websites using that name are fanfiction, unofficial message boards, or people quoting Supershadow.  (As for the number of sites, "Cos Palpatine", which is equally unofficial but at least comes from conjecture from Lucas's early drafts, gets almost as many hits.) You may have a point about Khameir, but I suggest you don't add it until someone gives an English-language official source for the name.  &mdash; Silly Dan  23:47, 21 Sep 2005 (UTC)
 * Then, we revert the edit to put up all of the facts about Plageius again. Plus, that is not Maul's real name. At least we know that most of the Plageius stuff is true, unlike the false items like "Dantius" and "Khameir Sarin". Cmdr. J. Nebulax 23:55, 21 Sep 2005 (UTC)
 * Well then go to Italy already and leave us alone. --Azizlight 00:26, 22 Sep 2005 (UTC)
 * Listen Prince Xizor, you cannot keep adding Dantius Palpatine to the article until you PROVE its OFFICIAL source, and IF you can do that, then the Wiki community will decide on whether it should be included in the article or not. For now, leave this article alone, or an Admin is likely to ban you from using the site. --Azizlight 00:38, 22 Sep 2005 (UTC)
 * Even better; if you can prove that this name is stated in an official source - an actual Lucasfilm-sanctioned publication or direct statement from George Lucas or Leland Chee quoted in a reliable source (this means, among other things, not StuporShadow) - then we will be *obligated* to include it. Until then, however, we have EVERY REASON to believe this is patently fanon, and will continue to keep it out of the article.  The Plagueis stuff has such a source - the novelization of Revenge of the Sith.  "Dantius" does not - as we can see in a post made on this thread at the Official Site, Leland Chee, who maintains the Holocron continuity database, states "Sometimes, aside from a title, all we have is the last name, ie Palpatine, Dooku, Panaka, Typho."  Palpatine's first name is currently unknown.  jSarek 01:24, 22 Sep 2005 (UTC)
 * If you check, you'll see that they're already there (at least the first two; hadn't heard of Albert before). jSarek 01:45, 22 Sep 2005 (UTC)