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Spelling
I know that this is frequently an area of debate on Wikipedia (where I would agree that it was a bad idea), but I'm willing to risk bringing it up here: would it be a good idea for us to standard(ise/ize) on American spelling? I know that there are people out there who would rather use British spellings, but, in reading Wikipedia:Wikipedia:Manual of Style, I have noticed that, in the section titled National varieties of English, it gives the example of an article concerning Tolkien's Lord of the Rings and states that such an article should be written using British spelling and style. It seems to me that, following that rule, any Star Wars article on Wikipedia would use American spelling and style, and that Wookieepedia should therefore standardize on American spelling. Thoughts? (By the way, in the event that anyone should attack me as an ignorant and arrogant American who cares nothing about others' culture(s), please know that I spent many of my formative years (the ones where I was learning to read and write) in Southeast Asia, where the predominant form of English is British English&mdash;as a result, I often prefer British spellings myself, so I'm not entirely biased towards the U.S. in this matter; I simply think that uniformity is good. I'm sure that no one on this wiki would resort to personal attacks, though, right? (-:) Uh, all of that aside, any thoughts? -- Aidje 00:07, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Not to be US-centric or anything, but if Star Wars originated in the United States, then the Wiki should follow the American format. -- Riffsyphon1024 00:10, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
 * One could make the argument (as Robert Brown did) that looking at the scripts and production designs, the word "lightsaber" is spelled using the British form, "sabre", rather than the American "saber", and as such should be the way it is spelled in all cases. However, I think the best way to go, at least in this regard, is the most common spelling in official materials, and since probably 99% of the Star Wars novels, reference books, video games, etc. are all made using American English, then it is probably best to standardize on that. In my own writings (off Wookieepedia) I'll still spell it "lightsabre", if only b/c I think it looks better, and in the end, that's the only reason words are spelled the way they are, it looks better that way.--Eion 00:44, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

This issue will be decided by consensus, so if they are more people happy with the US spelling, the way it looks in 99% of merchandise, then that is how we go. -- Riffsyphon1024 00:48, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
 * I'm certainly not US-centric (having lived my entire life in Canada), but I agree that US English should be the standard. However, Commonwealth/British/Canadian spellings for article titles, like lightsabre, should definitely be kept as redirects. Silly Dan 00:38, 3 May 2005 (UTC)


 * There is some post-structral debate over the reason words are spelled the way they are. But I agree.  US spellings all around.  --Kosure 00:50, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Wow. No flames! Cool. And everyone (so far) seems to agree, as well. I certainly feel better about bringing this up now that I see people's responses. I was afraid I might offend someone. -- Aidje 01:07, 3 May 2005 (UTC)


 * I must disagree. Proper names or items that are named in canon sources should be spelled properly. For example, lightsaber is spelled that way in all canon sources, and we should reflect that here. If an author uses an alternative English spelling method consistently in an article, any Wookipedians who edit or add to the article should respect it. If an author writes uses the spelling "armour" in a phrase, such as "Han Solo's shot bounced off Darth Vader's armour", and he is consistent throughout an article, it is acceptable. If an author uses the spelling for, say, a unit name, as in "The Rebel Alliance feared the 3rd Imperial Heavy Armour" -- it would be correctable via canon sources. If we take a hard and fast rule about the use of American English spelling, we may scare off or alienate potential participants, which would be unwise at this stage. In the end, we can make a decision on the final editing stance (perhaps having both US and UK versions of articles), but for now, it should be left alone. We have greater concerns to focus on. --SparqMan 01:48, 3 May 2005 (UTC)


 * I agree with SpargMan. It's just tiresome to have to revise my typing style just to Americanise words that really have no bearing on the article as a whole, and I suppose being 'corrected' for using your own language may not make some contributors happy. -Fade 15:19, 3 May 2005 (UTC)


 * First: I'm British, not American (just in case you wanted to know). Second: My view on this is that names and objects that are particular to the SW galaxy should always use American spellings (eg: lightsaber). However, I think that words that have no significant relevance to the galaxy (eg: colour/color) are fine however the author spells them normally, as long as it is a correct spelling of course. --Beeurd 00:31, 10 May 2005 (UTC)
 * I think that is pretty much the consensus that came out of this frenzy. I personally, have enough problems with my own spelling to start worrying about the correctly spelled words of others.--Eion 00:35, 10 May 2005 (UTC)
 * I don't mind people typing British English, but I think it would make sense to have a standard for spell checking&mdash;it would make the job quite tedious if one had to check every article before spellchecking to see which dictionary to use, and then switch back and forth accordingly. And what if an article is already half/half? – Aidje talk 00:39, 10 May 2005 (UTC)

Dating Systems
I noticed that it seems like the standard for dates here use the Battle of Yavin system, with that battle as a zero years. Would it be possible to use the Great Resynchronization system instead? I prefer it greatly to the BBY/ABY system; it just seems more 'realistic' from an in-universe perspective; that, plus it's used by both the modern Holonet News and the old Galaxy News Net breifs in the Star Wars Adventure Journal. I realize that almost everyone is more familiar with the BBY/ABY system, but that could be rectified by linking each year mentioned to an article about it (much like Wikipedia does) which not only has a list of the events that year, but also the corresponding date using the BBY/ABY system. I realize that many might not agree with me, and that it will take a bit of work to convert everything, but I think it's the best way to go. It's also more neutral, considering that the BBY/ABY system would only be favored by the Rebels and the other one was in use much longer. Gladius 06:42, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
 * While you have valid reasons, it's a lot of work, and for that reason alone I don't think it ends up as a net good result. It's hard enough getting people to work on articles, without the learning curve of a new calendar. This would cause a lot of people a lot of grief. It would be similar to requiring all Wikipedia articles about the Aztec to use only their calendar system.--Eion 06:49, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Its possible that it could be implimented in articles detailed those years defined by BBY/ABY, but hardly anyone would enjoy trying to learn a new dating system based on the Holonet's. -- Riffsyphon1024 06:44, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Besides, the average fan can grasp BBY immediately, but may never have heard of the Galaxy NewsNet or Holonet News systems. Silly Dan 11:31, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Alright, I understand where y'all are coming from. I'll stick to BBY/ABY from now on. -- Gladius 23:33, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

Refering to named Ships
For the Manual of Style, we should establish how we would like to refer to named ships in regards to the use of the article "the" before a name. For example:
 * "At the Battle of Endor, the Executor was the flagship of the Imperial Navy."
 * or
 * "At the Battle of Endor, Executor was the flagship of the Imperial Navy."

Is this a mere matter of choice in style, or does it demand a decision? --SparqMan 06:42, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Matter of choice I think. Maybe personal preference, just like our discussion on American/British English. -- Riffsyphon1024 06:45, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Standard navel practice use "the" before a class name, as in "The Executor Class Star Dreadnaught" but not in the ship's name, as in "HIMS Executor"--Eion 06:49, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Actually, naval communications uses the when the full name is used (as well as a class name), as in "the U.S.S. Nimitz", but would say, "We will dispatch Nimitz as soon as possible." --SparqMan 14:46, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
 * We're not talking about comms, but articles about the ships.--Eion 21:27, 3 May 2005 (UTC)


 * I'm glad this has been added to the Manual of Style, but I have one question: must HIMS be used every time a given (Imperial) ship is mentioned by name, or is it okay on subsequent mentionings to omit the prefix? -- Aidje 13:02, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
 * I think in most cases, only the first mention should be so formal.--Eion 21:27, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
 * HIMS is canon? --SparqMan 14:46, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
 * even if it is not, it is a reasonable conjecture. Lucas based the Imperial navy on terrestrial navies, and as such some carryover of terminology is acceptable.--Eion 21:27, 3 May 2005 (UTC)


 * HIMS isn't canon, but as Eion says it's a reasonable conjecture. Although the Revenge of the Sith novel reveals that RSS (presumably for Republic Star Ship) is the proper prefix for Republic vessels, so perhaps Imperial ships should rather be ISS or HIMSS? -- Gladius 23:40, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
 * An empire doesn't commission ships, the emperor does. Just as the government of the United Kingdom is referred to as "Her Majesty's Government", likewise are their ships referred to as "Her Majesty's Ship". Technically, the entire government of the UK (And by extension, the Galactic Empire), exists at the sovereigns’ pleasure. Unlike the US’s citizen government, in which the government is sovereign, in the UK and GE sovereignty rests with the sovereign herself. Further, the double SS on your second suggestion is redundant, HIMS stands for "His Imperial Majesty's Ship", as the use of the word "ship" in the astronomical sense has replaced the nautical sense.--Eion 23:54, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
 * That makes sense, thanks. I only suggested HIMSS since the Republic apparently used Star Ship rather than simply Ship-- although it was probably for asthetic reasons. RS sound stupid, as does HIMSS. HIMS it is then. -- Gladius 00:18, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
 * I've never seen a reference to HIMS in any books or sources -- I had always assumed that the Empire used numbers to identify the ships (as they do with everything else), and allowed the names to stay for morale purposes (and psychological purposes against insurgents). --SparqMan 23:46, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
 * They likely do, but just as the USS Enterprise of the US Navy is CVN-65, that is her hull classification symbol and registry, not her name.--Eion 23:54, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Still, I see no reason to be inserting the non-canon "HIMS" everywhere. We've never, in all the thousands of pages of print out there, seen even one reference to this prefix designation for these ships.  Even if there *is* a prefix - which, given its absence in material that should have it, I doubt - there's no guarantee it'd resemble Earthly systems.  It could include the extra "S" Gladius suggests, or it might be slightly tweaked ("His Majestically Imperial Starship"), or it could be an abbreviation of a High Galactic phrase instead of a Basic phrase, or any of a number of possibilities.  I think they should be stricken until we see them in canon material.  JSarek 04:20, 9 May 2005 (UTC)


 * Well, no, it couldn't be "His Majestically Imperial Starship". B/C we are SOD, we accept that the films dialogue (and in one case, its text) are being translated for use. This is why everyone appears to be speaking english/french/german/etc. Ranks, Titles, terminology are all, for the most part, also translated. When they are not, it is b/c our language lacks such a term, owing to the complexity of the SW universe (e.g. Moff). Ship names (at least in the Imp SF) are translated for us, it is therefore reasonable to assume a ship prefixes would be as well. The story is being told to US, it is written for US, and when you are writing a story for someone, you write it in terms they can understand. No source need be provided, b/c the statement is not contradicted in the canon. One is free to infer when there is limited information, and so as to allow ship names to be easily located, and to add a bit of uniformity to articles, I chose the most common (and most reasonable) translation of whatever ship prefix the Imp SF uses. EVEN if they do not use one, one must remember that this story is written for us. As I posted earlier, the Japanese navy does not use ship prefixes, but for western books, the prefix HIJMS is often used. It is used for continuity’s sake, nothing more.--Eion 06:45, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
 * I concur with JSarek. HIMS should be removed unless a source can be provided. Vote? --SparqMan 05:40, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

How is HIMS any more logical than GES (Galactic Empire Ship), ESS (Empire Starship), or anything else? HIMS is just a fan-created term that has spread throughout the fandom. We shouldn't use it in Wiki, since doing so makes it look official. Less knowledgable fans could be mislead. JimRaynor55 02:12, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Would HMS (standing for His Majesty's Ship) work instead? -- Riffsyphon1024 06:47, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
 * HMS would not a worthy title for an Empire. Emperors are Imperial Majesties (outranking Kings), and as such their ships are titled, "His Imperial Majesties Ships". Palpatine is an Emperor, has ships, and as such it is reasonable to conjecture (b/c of SOD) that his ships are titled thusly.--Eion 06:53, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Might I ask what SOD is supposed to mean? -- Riffsyphon1024 07:18, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Suspension of Disbelief. I do not allow the fact that humans, english, flying yellow letters all exist in the SW universe to color my perception or analysis.--Eion 07:21, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Things that only exist in "Fanon" should not be stated as fact in our articles. For all you know, the prefix for Imperial ships could be GES (Galactic Empire Ship), HMS (His Majesty's Ship), or anything else you can think of.  That's IF a prefix even exists. JimRaynor55 08:01, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
 * It is also logical to rename all of the starships to "Earth" standard ship types, but that would be breaking canon. --SparqMan 14:38, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
 * I'm gonna abstain on this vote. I don't want anything non-official in this wiki, but HIMS is also a logical conjecture (and the most common one). As I said before, we know from the RotS novelization that Republic ships used RSS (Republic Star Ship, presumably) as prefixes. --Gladius 02:40, 10 May 2005 (UTC)

Remove

 * 1) Remove. Unsurprising, I'm sure. ;-) JSarek 05:54, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
 * 2) Remove. It is not canonical. --SparqMan 06:20, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
 * 3) Remove. SW Wikipedia should be used to clear up misinformation, not spread it. JimRaynor55 08:01, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
 * 4) Remove. For the sake of not wanting to spread possible errors --Beeurd 00:41, 10 May 2005 (UTC)
 * 5) Remove It's bad conjecture at best --Death Regis 02:01, 10 May 2005 (UTC)
 * 6) Remove until a canonical, consistently used Imperial ship prefix appears. Silly Dan 02:25, 10 May 2005 (UTC)
 * 7) Remove Don't really have anything to say that wasn't already said. Shadowtrooper 02:27, 11 May 2005 (UTC)

Keep

 * 1) Keep. Conjecture is often required to fill in the holes; It's spackle.--Eion 06:53, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
 * 2) Keep. For now it's logical, likely, and helps presentation and realism. It's not exactly a massive unfounded assumption, as such I think it should remain unless something more official comes along. --Fade 14:32, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

In/Out of Universe Perspectives
Didn't see any other discussion on this. Should a policy on whether an article is written from an in or out of unvierse perpective be put in place? Personally, I'd like to see any articles on characters and such written from a totally IU POV, without any references to OOU stuff at all except for a Appearances or Behind the Scenes header at the bottom-- and even that should have a notation like I put in my Soontir Fel article. It just makes this whole wiki more realistic, especially if we format all the articles like they are on the regular Wikipedia. I noticed that a bunch of articles say in the middle of it what books a character appears in, or that they're from the star wars universe or whatever. To me it just detracts from the sense of realism.

I do think that articles about any OOU stuff, like books or merchandise, should obviously be written from an OOU perspective and perhaps noted be noted as such.

What do y'all think? -- Gladius 06:48, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
 * I have merged your OOU article to the Manual of Style. -- Riffsyphon1024 06:52, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Thanks! -- Gladius 23:38, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Gee I wish I had wings too. Seems needlessly complex and draconian. You need Suspension of Disbelief when viewing this kind of material, or else you have to accept that giant yellow letters zoom throughout space, all heroic actions are accompanied by orchestral music, and giant wipes whisk characters from scene to scene.--Eion 06:52, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Addendum, A clear IU/OU boundary is perhaps a mark of a great article, but even a fuzzy one drastically improves the "believability" of an article. Though I doubt anything from this wiki could be C&Ped direct into a novel as an "in universe" writing, it's nice to try.--Eion 06:57, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Look, I don't think it's that big of a deal. I'm just saying that any articles about characters an other IU stuff should probably, from now on, be written form as realistic and IU perspective as possible. It's not all that hard. I realize it sounds nitpicky, but reading about how a character was a bit part in ANH and played by so and so kinda yanks you out of the moment. Just look at the Biggs Darklighter or Thrawn articles. I realize that it's because they were shifted from the regular Wikipedia, but they sould probably either be redone as a 'real' type of article in the style of the real articles on main Wikipedia. I tried to emulate that style, for instance, in the Baron Fel article I submitted, and it wasn't that hard. I just used articles about folks like Rommel, Eisenhower, and Lee as examples to work off of. -- Gladius 23:39, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
 * No, I actually agree with you. Sorry if it came off otherwise, it was late. I try to do so as well, even if it is with tongue firmly in cheek on occasion.--Eion 23:57, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Hah, alright, thanks. I get what you mean. -- Gladius 00:20, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Would it be helpful to create a template tag for articles that require IU/OOU cleaning? Or should the tag include it, now that it has been merged into the Manual of Style? --SparqMan 07:01, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
 * I think that would be a great idea, to tag all the horribly OOU articles with that so someone can fix them up. Maybe the maual of style can have more detailed guideline on how to write new 'realistic' articles. The boxes describing eye and hair color, for example, are kinda tacky and could be included in the article (although that's just my opinion). -- Gladius 23:39, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Such boxes are used in the EGTC & NEGTC, and IMHO having to start each char article with "He had blue eyes, brown hair, and stood 1.8 meters tall" would be more tacky.--Eion 00:22, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Shouldn't the box portray vital information? I fail to see how hair or eye color (unless a distinguishing feature) is important to grasp immediately. Their need is particularly useless when the article is accompanied by an image (or multiple images). --SparqMan 01:03, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Are you willing to assume that all images will readily show eye color? I'm not, and I don't see anything wrong with a brief, uniform space for vital statistics, especially when it saves us from sounding like 3rd graders in the writing, not to mention precedent in the EGs.--Eion 01:53, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
 * The current boxes list species, gender, home planet, and affiliation, all of which should be described in the article anyway. The only two that normally wouldn't be are hair and eye color, and those can be determined from a provided picture (which is available for all characters about whom that information is known). The boxes are unnecessary and look unprofessional; this is supposed to be an encyclopedia-type site, not another essential guide. -- Gladius 02:32, 4 May 2005 (UTC)


 * You don't think it possible that a character may warrant a mention of their eye or hair color, but not a picture, in official sources? Or one is not available? I think the boxes summarize vital statistics in an efficient, and provide a continuous design element., which I feel is an element of any professional work. We clearly disagree on this.--Eion 02:41, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Clearly. My reasoning is that, in real life articles hair or eye color is never mentioned, and putting it in a box especially just looks odd. You may as well put RPG statistics while you're at it. I suppose if it must be included, and no picture is available, than it could easily go in a "Trivia" section at the end of the article along with other things that don't fit elsewhere, such as favorite foods or nicknames. It would look much better that way. -- Gladius 02:52, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
 * I view such char articles as that person's official record, and a person's official record ought to include such vital statistics. Imagine if an FBI file listed hair color under trivia. Does that make sense? No, it should be in large bold letters in a standardized box under your picture. If they gave us Han Solo's blood type, I'd want it in the Vital Statistics box. If they gave us his favorite song, I'd want it in the Trivia. Form must follow Function.--Eion 02:57, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
 * The way I'm looking at it is that this isn't a FBI database or whatever, this is an encyclopedia, and encyclopedias don't generally include inane stuff like eye or hair color unless it's somehow unusual or relevant, and especially not in a tacky big chart at the top of the page. A George Bush article wouldn't say Hair Color: Brown Eye Color: Brown Affiliation: United States and so on, for example. It's a difference of asthetic opinion, I guess. -- Gladius 20:36, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
 * While In Universe is a good idea, we gotta have some OOU content in IU articles. For example, if you want to compare a character or ship to real-world people/vehicles. I think the best thing would be to seperate them in each article. For example, Jar Jar Binks is completely OOU at first, talking about fan reaction and who acted him and the like, than going on to talk about the actual story. Perhaps we should do it like that, only flipping it, so character stuff is first, than there's a section for each thing about real world stuff, like a list of where the topic was featured and introduced, and how heavily, real-world inspirations and comparisons, etc. Like in SW databank when they have movies, EU, and "behind the scenes" sections for each entry.-LtNOWIS 03:13, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
 * I agree, that is the best way to handle such mixed articles. Certain articles (The Films in particular) defy this though, as certain OU infomation (casting, poster, gross, etc.) should appear at the top of the page.
 * picture (which is available for all characters about whom that information is known)
 * I doubt this is the case. I'm sure there are EU characters who's physical characteristics are described, while the character is not portrayed in any official artwork. Broad sweeping statements using words such as all, every, never, always, etc. are almost "always" wrong :-) -- Aidje 03:20, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
 * You're right, sorry. I shoud have said "most characters"-- most main characters, at least, have some picture of them somewhere, although alot minor ones don't. -- Gladius 20:36, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
 * I have created the template to mark articles that contain inappropriate OOU content. The listing can be viewed here: Out of Universe cleanup. Many of the articles simply require a little fix at the top (removing the "in the fictional universe..." bit), but some require a more comprehensive workover to focus the articles in IU content and/or separate out valuable OOU content into a section. Please add the template tag to articles that require it as you see them. --SparqMan 06:34, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Whoa, wait a second. That part you just mentioned is wookification. It's already covered, because that kind of statement is just left over from Wikipedia. I thought you were talking about more subtle differences, the kind of thing that would be written on this Wiki rather than the kind of thing that would be written on Wikipedia and then moved here. Doubtless, OOU cleanup would be a vital part of the wookification process, but I'm not sure that outright "This is Star Wars" statements quite fit into that category. I thought it was more like "In blahblah book" statements that were merely trying to tell people which book something was in, rather than the statements that assume one doesn't even know it's fictional to begin with. I hope I'm making sense. I think there should be somewhat clear lines here&mdash;totally blurred lines can cause great confusion. We must take care. -- Aidje 14:24, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Right, we would certainly want an article on Luke to mention Mark Hamil. To clarify what I was saying, a segregated or semi-segrated system might work fairly well. I think each IU article should have a section saying where it's from or introduced, especially the minor stuff, so we can look it up and see that it actually exists. This would prevent fake stuff from being inserted, and also let people make their own decisions on canon. I pesrsonally don't mind having phrases like "featured heavily in Star Wars: ..." in article titles, but I think it's better to at least divide it by paragraphs-LtNOWIS 15:45, 4 May 2005 (UTC)


 * I don't have anything to say, other than I'm watching this thread closely. FYI--Kosure 14:31, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
 * The OOU tagging is being used for articles with glaring issues that can be easily corrected. While it's wookification, I've created the tag to make them easier to see, just as there are multiple types of tags. I agree with LtNOWIS: a good reference section should handle a large number of the issues, and the rest (particularly movie related articles) can be segregated within the article. --SparqMan 16:02, 4 May 2005 (UTC)


 * Okay, forget what I said. I see that there's overlap between the two, but that neither is a complete subset of the other. This worried me at first. Not sure why. I think I understand why it's okay now. -- Aidje 16:23, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I'm thinking that basically the whole article should be IU, then at the end have a "Behind the Scenes" heading where you say who created him/her/it, what actor played a character, misc. stuff about the design process of the subject, etc. Then in the References heading list all the sources the subject appears in. That way the article is realisitically IU with not "then in X book so and so did this," but readers can still see where they appeared and click on the source links for summaries. -- Gladius 20:36, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
 * The Yoda article is like this already isn't it. Use that as an example. -- Riffsyphon1024 21:07, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Well... the Yoda article isn't quite what I had in mind. It includes alot of OOU references inside the article. IMO I'd move all of the references of the materials he appears in to a "References" heading at the the bottom, above "External Links," and move all of the stuff like the Sanskrit origin of his name, George Lucas keeping his species secret, and so on to a "Behind the Scenes" header above "References." I think the Baron Fel article serves as a good template for this sort of thing (but then I wrote it so I may be biased ;) ). -- Gladius 22:02, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
 * I have edited Ponda Baba, Wedge Antilles, and Doctor Evazan in more-or-less the same way. Silly Dan 22:37, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
 * The Ponda Baba article was written completely from an IU perspective to begin with, although you did add some new sections, like the Appearances thing. Another article which I think has been properly wookified and perspective-shifted is Geonosis. Is that on target? (The one thing I'm particularly not sure about is the mention of architecture: I would only say was if it wasn't like that anymore, but to say is assumes that it hasn't changed). -- Aidje 03:46, 5 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Sorry Aidje, I meant to say I formatted Ponda Baba, not edited. The only oou stuff in there right now is stuff I added. Silly Dan 02:19, 6 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Well, I guess formatting is a form of editing. Whatever, it's okay. I don't mean to be possessive or anything; whatever the case, it's a good example of the kind of separation being discussed. – Aidje talk 20:50, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Yeah, those are more or less what I was thinking of. IMO the format should go Wikipedia-style article (introductory sentences then headings if necessary), then in-universe trivia about the subject, then a behind the scenes heading about the subject, then references where the subject appeared, the external links. Keeps it nice and neat that way. -- Gladius 05:10, 6 May 2005 (UTC)
 * I’m a casual user of the Star Wars wiki who likes Star Wars but doesn’t know a lot of the detail (hence my visits here). I have a few thoughts from my outside perspective that relate to what’s being discussed here that I thought you might find of interest. As a casual user I would find it very helfpul if, for each entry, it could be stated where the subject can be found in the Star Wars universe (and expanded universe). This would be particularly useful if, for example, you wanted to follow all the appearances in books, films, comics etc of a particular character (eg Boba Fett). Some pages don’t have any reference at all to where they appear (eg the recently added ThonBoka Nebula entry). Other pages (such as Soontir Fel and Ponda Baba) do have the information but the headings ‘Appearances’ and ‘References’ seem to be being used to mean the same thing. May I suggest that both be used but to mean different things – ‘Appearances’ for where the subject is actually featured and ‘References’ for where the subject is mentioned in a significant way but not actually featured (I’m sure Darth Vader might feature heavily under both headings). The other thing I wanted to suggest is that the source of information should be cited. This isn’t always the same as the ‘Appearance’ or ‘Reference’. To use Ponda Baba as an example again, the entry correctly states that the character appears in ‘Star Wars IV: A New Hope’ but clearly all the information given doesn’t come from the characters brief appearance in the movie. So, where does the information come from? The novelization? The radio version? The role-playing-game? Not only would citing the source be useful for the user but for future wikipedians who might want to corroborate the information should it fall in to doubt. I do hope you don’t think I’m being cheeky or rude suggesting all the above. I realise that this wiki will always be a work in progress but I just thought that these are things that might be considered for the future. After all, I’m sure you want the wiki to be as useful as possible. --Mantrid 08:34, 8 May 2005 (UTC)

I think the last poster makes some good points. We should definitely try harder to pad out Appearances sections, but I think that the References cuurently mean cited works at the moment- perhaps it would be better to rename the References sections 'Sources' to avoid confusion? --Fade 14:36, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

Abbreviations
What are the acceptable abbreviations for the various governments? Does GE for Galactic Empire, NR for New Republic, RA for Rebel Alliance, GR for Galactic Republic, and EotH for Empire of the Hand all work? Or should it just be EH for the Empire of the Hand? I'm wondering because saying "Empire of the Hand" multiple times in a single paragraph gets clunky, and the only 'standard' or official abbreviation that I'm aware of is CIS. Are the above ones all reasily recognizable enough, or is there something else for each? -- Gladius 00:23, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
 * I try to avoid using abreviations in articles, but of course I get lazy on the talk pages. That's just my preference. It could be solved in this way:
 * The Empire of the Hand (Hereafter refered to as the EotH (or Empire).
 * using this text at the top of an article would allow you to use whichever abbreviation suited you. Over time, an accepted list of abbreviations will emerge, but I'm uncertain any such meme exists yet.--Eion 00:31, 4 May 2005 (UTC)


 * I would agree. Abbreviations, unless used "in universe", should be kept out of articles. We should follow the Wikipedia style guide on the appropriate use of abbreviations beyond that. --SparqMan 01:05, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
 * I'm guessing that NR would work for New Republic. After all, NRI is an accepted abbr for New Republic Inteligence (used in JKII). Shadowtrooper 01:42, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
 * That sounds reasonable. A minor question: what would the adjective for the Empire of the Hand be? Imperial? Hand Imperial? I can't think of anything that sounds right and isnt' confusing. -- Gladius 02:36, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
 * I don't know 'bout Empire of the Hand, but there are some vehicle abbrs I've found: ISD and ISD II for Imperial Star Destroyer and Mk II, CORT for Colreelian transports. Shadowtrooper 03:52, 5 May 2005 (UTC)


 * SO are we putting a behind the scenes Section Heading before any OU stuff? Beacuse someone OOU'd the Thrawn article for two sentences at the very end.  --Kosure 14:01, 5 May 2005 (UTC)

Tense
I am assuming that we should write as if the latest source (furthest in the future) is the present tense. So that an article about the New Republic (now the Galactic Alliance) should be in the past tense. Correct? --SparqMan 01:38, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Talk:Main_Page Shadowtrooper 01:44, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Past tense is the safest bet in most cases, Planets (unless destroyed) could be in present tense.--Eion 01:49, 4 May 2005 (UTC)

Spoiler Warnings
While I respect the need for spoiler warnings, I think they are vastly overused in articles. Isn't it safe to assume that if a user clicks on "Leia Organa" they want to learn everything about her? The only place where this seems to make sense is for EPIII where people don't want any related info before they see the films. I imagine that users would come here seeking information fully aware that they will uncover "spoiler" information. Thoughts? --SparqMan 21:07, 4 May 2005 (UTC) Then these are the four things that need to be covered by spoilers: Those four things should be what is covered, and everything else is fair game. -- Riffsyphon1024 19:31, 5 May 2005 (UTC)
 * That was the point of the Ep III spoiler templates. -- Riffsyphon1024 21:08, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
 * So could spoiler warnings be removed from all but the RotS-related articles? And will those be removed about a month or so after RotS comes out? -- Gladius 22:30, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Believe it or not, some people might have to wait until the DVD comes out. They stay for now. -- Riffsyphon1024 22:37, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
 * What about the non-RotS spoiler warnings? -- Gladius 22:50, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
 * That will require consensus from the community. -- Riffsyphon1024 22:51, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Gotcha. I vote for dropping them; spoilers should be inherent just from the nature of this site. Maybe a disclaimer could placed on the front page though, just in case. -- Gladius 22:53, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
 * My opinion: drop them for everything that's been out in paperback or TPB for more than a month. JSarek 22:55, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
 * My vote is ditch everything but RotS spoiler markers, but make sure plot sections of articles about books, films etc. have a clear heading. --Fade 23:00, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Yeah, that's a good idea: spoiler warnings for book summaries (although it should still be obvious from the article), and for a month after any new releases. -- Gladius 23:03, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Here I thought a spoiler warning was a pretty clear heading that the plot is about to be revealed.--Eion 00:51, 5 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Excellent. If the vote goes forth, we should add that to the Manual of Style.
 * Keep for all unreleased materials, and for 3 months after material released (To allow for international releases and such), however a goal of all good articles should be a spoiler free synopsis and a full plot summery.--Eion 00:51, 5 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep, the SWiki isn't about ruining old books for people that havn't read them. I agree that the placment is a bit careless.  So, I propose, if you've read a book, look through the article, and see if things can't be edited, so the spoilers fit into a little paragraph at the end.  Its more work, but its much more nice.  --Kosure 02:18, 5 May 2005 (UTC)
 * I agree with Kosure. There are many old books that I haven't read. -- Aidje 03:47, 5 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Why not just divide them into a safe 'blurb' and then a section entitled Story or something, so that there is a clear summary and then in depth stuff, without the need for spoiler warnings. Anyone not wanting to spoil the book wouldn't read the 'Story' section, would they? --Fade 07:42, 5 May 2005 (UTC)
 * People are inherently stupid. They will keep reading until they realize that was something they weren't suppose to know, because there wasn't a spoiler template to stop them. -- Riffsyphon1024 07:44, 5 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Then they deserve to be spoiled :P --Fade 07:52, 5 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Exactly. The fact is, explaining a lot of topics in Star Wars can't be done without spoiling *something*.  How do you discuss the Imperial Remnant without discussing the fall of the Empire?  How do you you talk about Anakin Skywalker's life without revealing he's Luke's father?  Having a spoiler warning in every article - which you'd come close to needing - only serves to break up the flow of articles and make them harder to write and harder to read.  So I say, give people a chance - a month after paperbacks and TPBs (and probably a month after the release of RotS, too) - and then spoil away. JSarek 07:53, 5 May 2005 (UTC)
 * I'm willing to concede a few points, the movies, shouldn't be spoilers. If you're here, you've seen the movie, and if you havn't yet, you don't care about spoilers.  Barring Ep III of corse..  But your one moth rule? Jsarek, some of us don't have the money to buy every star wars book, comic, videogame, and TPB as soon as they come out.  --Kosure 14:04, 5 May 2005 (UTC)
 * I'm still agreeing with everything Kosure has said so far (although I don't know what a TPB is&mdash;I'm guessing it's inconsequential). -- Aidje 14:57, 5 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Consiquently TPB stands for Trade Paperback, as in a collection of comics into a softbound book. --Kosure 15:20, 5 May 2005 (UTC)
 * No, not everyone has the money to buy all of the books when they come out; there are a vast number I still haven't read. But we also can't expect everyone to tiptoe around the structure and content of their articles because somebody out there hasn't read the Thrawn Trilogy yet. If you went to the store to buy the Star Wars Encyclopedia, would you be insisting every relevant entry was structured with a spoiler warning?  How about the Essential Guides?  We have to assume at some point that people have had sufficient opportunity to read the primary material our work is based on.  One month seems enough to me, but was rather arbitrary; two or three months would be just as workable.  Much more than that, though, and you're hamstringing our authors unnecessarily. JSarek 19:07, 5 May 2005 (UTC)
 * 1) Anything involving the death of a character, especially a popular one.
 * 2) Anything Ep III for now.
 * 3) Anything that appears to be something that a person would not do normally, like switch sides suddenly, however the Emperor can be disputed as he is integral to the entire timeline of Star Wars.
 * 4) Anything that involves destruction of something, including Alderaan and the Death Stars.


 * Do you mean that those should be spoilers, or that we need to decide if they will be or not? I still think that spoilers should only be put in place for RotS and on summaries for any new material (in the main article) for a month or two. Other than that, spoilers should be an expected part of this sort of project. As JSarek said, someone who reads all the entries in the Star Wars Encylopedia or the Essential Chronology or Guide to Characters should fully be prepared to be spoiled. Spoiler warnings halfway through the page are redundant and break up the pacing of the article. Maybe a broad spoiler warning on the front page would suffice? -- Gladius 05:07, 6 May 2005 (UTC)
 * All those points covered are indeed for spoilers, and one person is not enough to make sure big decisions. Just like at Wikipedia, consensus will decide what is needed. So below post whether you Support a removal of spoilers or Oppose a removal of spoilers. -- Riffsyphon1024 05:24, 6 May 2005 (UTC)

Supports

 * 1) Support removal, except for items relating to RotS and new (<1 month old, give or take) material. JSarek 05:45, 6 May 2005 (UTC)
 * 2) Support removal, except for RotS and brand new material for a month or two; maybe put a general warning on the front page. -- Gladius 18:45, 6 May 2005 (UTC)
 * 3) Support removal, except for new material for the first month. Users will not click on the name of a character, event, etc. that they are not familiar with (and therefore spoiler sensitive) if they are not interested in discovering the content. --SparqMan 23:47, 6 May 2005 (UTC)
 * 4) Support removal, except for RotS and brand new material for a month or two; maybe put a general warning on the front page. Like Gladius said.--VT-16 00:09, 7 May 2005 (UTC)
 * 5) Support, subject to the exceptions the above voters have mentioned. Silly Dan 01:01, 7 May 2005 (UTC)
 * 6) Support, all of the above statements, including exceptions. Entries should have a spoiler free 'lead in' paragraph, anyone who reads a larger, in depth summary of a book/character/whatever cannot reasonably expect no spoilers. I avoided KotOR 2 spoilers well enough by simply not searching for characters from the game or reading the 'Story' section of encyclopedia articles, it's no stretch to imagine that everyone can do the same. Still support warnings on new materials though. --Fade 22:04, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
 * 7) Support removal, except for the four categories listed above and material less than three months old. WhiteBoy 19:18, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
 * 8) Support but the graec period should probablyh be just a bit longer, like anything published in the last year. --Death Regis 02:06, 10 May 2005 (UTC)

Opposes

 * 1) Oppose -- Riffsyphon1024 05:24, 6 May 2005 (UTC)
 * 2) Oppose -- I agree with the four things posted by Riffsyphon. -- Aidje 14:02, 6 May 2005 (UTC)
 * 3) Oppose -- Please. --Kosure 14:27, 6 May 2005 (UTC)
 * 4) Oppose -- ALL summaries should have a spoiler-free and a spoiled version. This is the most permanent solution. Spolage of unreleased material (1 month after release) should have a special spoiler warning.--Eion 22:49, 6 May 2005 (UTC)
 * 5) Oppose -- We should not have two versions. That's more work than getting rid of the spoiler tags already on the site. I think the tag does need to be redesigned to make it less intrusive though. However, I think they need to remain because we cannot assume every visitor has a deep understanding of Star Wars. They come for information and it should be their decision as to how much they want to learn. And no matter what we do, it's probably not going to make articles any easier to write. The thing is that I cannot honestly see a compromise regarding this because such a decision is not as cut and dry as people want it to be. P. Cobbs 02:14, 7 May 2005 (UTC)
 * 6) Note, I said summaries, not articles. The first summery (sort of the back of the book teaser) should be spoiler free, followed by a spoiler warning (Which by its very nature SHOULD be intrusive; it's saying "Abandon all hope of surprise, ye who enter here.", then the spoiled version of the summery. To repeat, for emphasis, I DO NOT, IN ANY WAY, SUPPORT THE CREATION OF TWO ARTICLES, ONE FOR EACH SUMMERY. IN FACT, I OPPOSE THIS!!!. Sorry if this wasn't clear before--Eion 16:50, 7 May 2005 (UTC)

Uh, we have a problem
I was searching around on Google under the search term "Star Wars Wiki", and of course I found our site sitting at the top, however, lo and behold, there is another Star Wars Wiki out there, already functioning as of at least February. What do we do???? -- Riffsyphon1024 21:45, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Never mind that. The creator had not much on there, it was formatted nicely, looking like it had stuff on there, but then I checked the new articles and there were only 10 total. So instead I will request his help (User:Beeurd) for this wiki. -- Riffsyphon1024 21:47, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
 * There are always other Star Wars encyclopedia's out there, wiki or not- what's another bit of competition to keep us on our toes? :P --Fade 22:09, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
 * I know, but this one was nearly identical to ours, using the same software. Enough for confusion between the two. Here's the link to it if you want to see it. -- Riffsyphon1024 22:10, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
 * I do like their home page, tho. That is something similar to what I had in mind for our site.  I just haven't had time to work on it.  Another site that I ran across quite a while back was http://www.starwarswiki.org.  I'd like to own that domain and point it to us.  :D  WhiteBoy 19:07, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
 * It just appears to be one guy. You should contact him.--SparqMan 20:05, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
 * I don't know how much control you have over the site, but a few changes to the page title system would help users find us when searching for Star Wars info. --SparqMan 22:40, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
 * What do you suggest? I'll see what I can do.  WhiteBoy 19:07, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
 * "Star Wars Wiki" should probably appear in the page title of every summoned page, as a start. --SparqMan 20:05, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Wow, I didn't realise I was mildly famous. lol. Yeah, I started the Wiki back in February, but due to commitments I haven't been able to do much with it. I have already spoken to Riffsyphon1024 via email and have agreed to move my decent stuff over here. If you like my main page you can steal it if you want. When everything relevant is moved from there I'll close that wiki and redirect the URL to here, so that anyone who finds mine or already knows about it will find there way here. Plus, there is already a team and lots of articles here so mine's redundant already =P --Beeurd 00:52, 10 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Welcome :) --Eion 00:56, 10 May 2005 (UTC)

Conflicting Sources
The method for addressing conflicting, equally canonical sources is inconsistent across articles. We should add a method for discussing it to the Manual of Style. Preferences? --SparqMan 05:42, 9 May 2005 (UTC)


 * Currently I just make an In-universe reference to conflicting historical sources (as you tend to get in 'real' history), though perhaps I should also add a Behind the Scenes section to explain it in future. --Fade 14:40, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

Vote: Titles in Article Names
I'd like to get a vote, or at least a sense of the body, on the topic of using ranks in article titles. Several article talk pagaes have discussion over it, and we might as well get a vote to place it in the Manual of Style.

Articles will be titled the name of a character, excluding his/her/its title.
 * Example: Sedriss, not Executor Sedriss

For

 * 1) For. Follows encyclopedic standards --SparqMan 19:11, 10 May 2005 (UTC)


 * 1) For.--Eion 19:22, 10 May 2005 (UTC)
 * 2) For, with all titles being redirects to the name (this is probably assumed). – Aidje talk 19:39, 10 May 2005 (UTC)
 * 3) For, with the same stipulation as Aidje. JSarek 22:09, 10 May 2005 (UTC)
 * 4) For --Beeurd 22:32, 10 May 2005 (UTC)
 * 5) For It only stands to reason.--Kosure 22:45, 10 May 2005 (UTC)
 * 6) For, again with the same stipulation as Aidje. Shadowtrooper 02:30, 11 May 2005 (UTC)