Talk:Venator-class Star Destroyer/Legends

Need some stats on engines etc. anyone got the ICS for ROTS? VT-16 08:52, 29 May 2005 (UTC)
 * The ROTS ICS states that the acceleration is 3,000G. JimRaynor55 17:01, 29 May 2005 (UTC)

In ROTS there was an interior shot of a Venator-class that showed a battery of large projectile guns that fired huge shells. Any indication what those were? --SparqMan 18:00, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Is the "thousand VenStars at Cour." thing actually established as more than fanon? And shouldn't we mention the Leviathan and Ravager as prototypes up the top? --McEwok 19:18, 15 Aug 2005 (UTC)

How can completely different ships that existed thousands of years ago be prototypes for the Venator-class? JimRaynor55 23:22, 16 Aug 2005 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I don't think they developed prototypes for the Venator-class Star Destroyer back in the time when KOTOR took place. Sure, the concept would evolve into the idea of Star Destroyers thousands of years after the construction of the Leviathan. Cmdr. J. Nebulax 23:53, 16 Aug 2005 (UTC)

Battle of Rendili
This article claims that the Sundiver, Triumph, and Doneeta are Venator-class Star Destroyers. The CUSWE says that they're Acclamator-class transports. Which one is correct? JimRaynor55 09:17, 21 Aug 2005 (UTC)
 * The battle is depicted in the 'Dreadnaughts of Rendili' Republic arc. The warships are definately Acclamators - Kwenn

Venators and GCW
Ok it says venators were used in GCw but theres no sign of them so we can't say they were used intill proof they can have all been broken down or maybe sold or melted down for resources. Anyway it sounds like a venator fan wrote the last part.
 * It's already been decided. Admiral J. Nebulax 12:41, 24 Dec 2005 (UTC)
 * Sadly, they were cut out of Empire at War just a few weeks ago. You can still see screenshots of them from recent previews, but would this count as an appearance or not?


 * The developers said they took it out because of game mechanics. They couldn't find a way to balance it with rebel craft or something, which imho is stupid, as they could just have made it into a fully-fledged carrier-unit, matched it up with a rebel carrier and had them both be more vulnerable to enemy fire than the Victory-class and the Imperial-class (which is what the devs said to begin with, that it was "outdated tech" and would be easier to destroy).


 * Now, would screenshots in a magazine constitute an official source, if coupled with the fact that they didn't take it out because of contradiction with SW history, but because of balancing issues in the game (which had nothing to do with "RL" SW, as the Empire always had an advantage of size and strength and kept millions of different ship-designs in their forces.)


 * This should be good. :3 VT-16 14:21, 11 Jan 2006 (UTC)


 * I'd say that Empire at War wouldn't be an appearance, because they didn't appear in the game. Admiral J. Nebulax 14:33, 11 Jan 2006 (UTC)
 * I wasn't talking about having the game as an appearance, but the game magazines that printed the pictures, where Venators were seen. I'd did write that any GCW sources were "sketchy at best", maybe that should be enough? Since the reason for it getting cut wasn't that it didn't fit in with the GCW-era Empire, it was just a manner of game mechanics not working out. VT-16 15:13, 11 Jan 2006 (UTC)
 * Oh. Admiral J. Nebulax 18:01, 11 Jan 2006 (UTC)
 * Maybe they'll be in the EAW expansion pack, which we all know is going to happen anyways. But my question is: that image from DE really looks nothing at all like a Venator, and is there any reason why it's here? Kuralyov 18:29, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
 * The front half of that DE ship has a vague resemblance to a whole Venator, but the rear half makes it completely different. This isn't close enough of a resemblance to bear mention in the Venator article IMO, and it's quite a stretch to suggest that it's a modified Venator. I think it should be removed. JimRaynor55 19:11, 18 January 2006 (UTC)


 * The Venator is in Empire at War - you just have to unlock it. All the coding is there. I have physically fought with a Venator on the demo. --Naylor182 00:00, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Interesting. But don't post comments in the middle of a discussion. Admiral J. Nebulax 00:27, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
 * The problem is, the demo could have been made before the Venator was axed. I don't know how demos rank on the canon-scale, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's not high. VT-16 09:04, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
 * I'd say keep it out of the article, except for the Behind the Scenes section. Admiral J. Nebulax 21:29, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Isn't the policy that cut material is not canon?--Lord Zack 15:53, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
 * It depends. Admiral J. Nebulax 20:18, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
 * The problem was slightly confounded by the developers' own statements. First they announced to the community that the Venator was part of the game, then they put it up on the official site, then they took it down again. And they explained that the Venator was taken out, not because it didn't fit in with the GCW-era, but because of "balancing issues". I guess that means they couldn't find a Rebel ship to be its equivilant (even though they had it available for both factions in multiplayer, which would have solved the problem automatically). So the reason it got taken out was not due to any conflicts with continuity, but because of game-mechanics. I guess as statement like this could fit in the BtS section. VT-16 12:34, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
 * So, it wouldn't be an appearance at all. Admiral J. Nebulax 20:36, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Why did they leave it out of the main game anyway? They could have easily solved the problem by giving the Venator to the Rebels, since they thought that the Empire was too overpowered. That was a completely stupid idea. Wouldn't the Rebellion eat up the Venator-Class Star Destroyers until the MC80's came into service? I meant the Rebellion would probably want them, for their starfighter capacity. With such a craft, space superiority with the Rebellion's X-Wings, Y-Wings, and A-Wings would almost be assured. Except from Defectors that had those types of ships in their disposal I suppose.
 * I could have sworn I saw the Venator in television commercials for "Empire at War", although if they aren't in the finished game, i suppose it doesn't count, but it seems strange that they would advertise something not in the game. Perhaps they are not controllable by the player, but merely appear in cutscenes. --143.229.1.17 19:30, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
 * The commercials were probably made before they took it out of the game. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 21:01, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, apparently they felt that the Venators weren't needed. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 00:51, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, that's your point of view. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 20:14, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
 * What do you mean? If you're saying that the Rebellion would have Venators before they got Mon Calamari cruisers, no, because the Empire would still be using them, although they would mainly have been replaced by Imperials. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 16:30, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Er, in theory, the Rebels would want any dedicated warships they could get.--Guy Ruffian 21:45, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Exactly. Anyway, I doubt the Rebels would be buying warships from the Empire. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 22:10, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
 * What about stealing? ;)
 * I don't think they would try that. They probably never got close to having a Venator. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 22:19, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
 * The odds of an entire crew defecting in the limited time that Venators were in active Imperial service somehow strike me as very, very slim. --Guy Ruffian 12:20, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Exactly. There's no way that an entire crew of a Star Destroyer would decide to defect. Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 12:22, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't say that there's no chance at all, especially in a space opera adventure setting like Star Wars, but it strikes me as unlikely enough that we can safely assume it didn't happen unless explicitly informed otherwise. from a trusted (i.e. official) source. --Guy Ruffian 17:04, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, unless a bunch of Rebels boarded on and took it over, it's very unlikely. Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 17:18, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, since the Venators were going to be available to both factions (in Multiplayer, at least), that would have proven some were stolen. ;) VT-16 19:55, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, "were" is the key word there. Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 20:04, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Hey, it happened with a whole lot of Nebulon-B frigates. It could happen with a Venator, too.  And about the canonicity, I think it's canon.  The reason is that Leland Chee has said on many occasions that content goes into the Holocron well before products are released and stays there, even if it's cut for constraint or mechanics reasons.  If the Venator model made it into the game files, it's almost certain that the Holocron mentions its appearance.  --Thetoastman 20:08, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
 * If that happens, I don't think we should count it as an appearance. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 22:08, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Fuel Consumption
The page says a Venator can burn 40,000 tons of fuel per second. Without knowing the weight of the fuel, if we assume it is super dense and a litre weighs a ton, a Venator would burn 40,000 Litres per second. Since a litre is 10 cubic CM, that's 4,000 cubic Metres per second. The Venator is 1,137 meters long, 548 meters wide, and 268 meters high including the bridge. If we assume the majority of the hull is 1/3 of that, it's 89m high. Therefore a Venator, at most, has 55,453,764 Million Cubic Metres of space. If we say the entire hull is dedicated to fuel, then the Venator has a grand total of 23.1 Minutes of fuel. Surely Venator's were deployed for more than 23 minutes at a time?

You might want to contest what I'm saying, but let's analyse this:

- 40,000 tons of Fuel that has an unknown weight, if we assume that a litre weighs a ton (IE it's 1000 times heavier than water), and some assumptions must be made, unless someone can show me what Fuel in Star Wars weighs, then 40,000 tons occupies 4,000 Cubic Metres.

- The largest dimensions of a Venator are known, so if a Venator were a rectangular prism we'd know its volume, however it isn't, so I assume, by trimming off some height, perhaps a little too much which is more than compensated for by the maximum of the other two dimensions being used, that the volume is 55,453,764 Cubic Metres.

- By statement one, a minute's fuel occupies 2,400,000 Cubic metres. Therefore 23.1 minutes fuel occupies 55,440,000 Cubic Metres, roughly the Venator's entire capacity. This is assuming the entire ship is devoted to fuel, which clearly it isn't.

So, basically, that figure is insanely over the top. Even if you decrease the consumption by half, by whatever justification, it's still only 46.2 minutes. Even if you then double the capacity, you only get 46.2 Hours (My working out on that one might be wrong; I doubled the Venator Volume, then divided it by half the consumption per second and then divided it by sixty for the number of minutes and sixty again for the number of hours, this is correct?) the Venator has supplies for 2 years, ie 2,515,968,000,000 tons of fuel, which, if we use my first statement's assumption, would occupy 251,596,800,000 Cubic Metres, 251,596,800 Cubic Kilometres. The USA is 9,631,418Km squared (So not in height), so a Venator would need to carry 26122.5 times the size the USA, Cubed, the Earth has 510,065,284.702 km square area. So a Venator would carry enough fuel to cover the earth (Assuming it were flat over sea level, of course) to a height of 125,798,400 km, if the fuel were 1000x the weight of water.

This seems just a tad unreal to me.
 * They invented hypermatter specifically to explain this. Starships can carry fuel equivalent to the mass of a moon without nasty gravitational side-effects. &mdash;Darth Culator   (talk)  14:40, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry but that's makes no sense - we've gone from fuel that's amazingly dense to fuel that is essentially anti-matter and for some reason moves faster than the speed of light. It still doesn't fix the volume problem... (Note, I think I dropped a zero in my calculations above somewhere, but all the same, the figures would similar)
 * A wizard did it. Seriously, I'm not the astrophysicist who came up with it, so it doesn't necessarily make a lot of sense to me either. But somebody at Lucas Licensing OK'ed it, so it's canon. &mdash;Darth Culator   (talk)  14:56, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

":|" I mean it's just, as a kid I loved Star Wars, but even at a very young age the gaping holes in continuity were obvious. Most of it could be fixed by George Lucas simply giving a flying over what is and isn't given the thumbs up; he's turned his universe into something of a whore, it sells itself for money. He's a sci-fi pimp.

And when I saw this, I decided to do the calculations and they make no sense. Then (I know that you're trying to help) I'm directed to a page that made me think, if I may quote Futurama's Hermes Conrad "BUT THAT JUST RAISES MORE QUESTIONS!", because it doesn't explain in any way how the matter could be super-dense, if anything it tries to confuse people with bullshit, all it really does is use technical terms that mean it's essentially anti-matter that's moving faster than the speed of light... and this stuff's supposed to be in a fuel tank of things across the Galaxy? I mean, stuff Exxon Valdez, this stuff has the potential to wipe out a planet if it's not magically stopped from doing that (which is also unexplained).

It's like "Okay, you got me, that's not possible... until I babble at you in jargon so you give up!" I mean I know a little of Quantum Physics and all that crazy stuff but not ever have I heard of Hypermatter outside Sci-Fi. I just don't get it. At least can someone explain why Hypermatter helps, how it is utilised if it's moving faster than light speed and why it isn't annihalating the Universe?
 * "Okay, you got me, that's not possible... until I babble at you in jargon so you give up!" -- Honestly, I think it's exactly like that. The power requirement for destroying a planet was so fantastic that something needed to be said about it, and that's what they came up with. There are relatively few examples of genuine technobabble/handwavium in Star Wars, so this one doesn't bother me that much. I know just enough about physics to sound especially stupid when an actual physics guy joins the party, but there are places you can go where they may be able to explain in more detail, like Stardestroyer.net or the Jedi Council Forums. &mdash;Darth Culator   (talk)  15:37, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, I'll look into that, sorry to use the discussion area somewhat like an IM, but this bothered me. I know that Star Wars has a lot of bable that's meaningless, usually I don't mind too much, sometimes there's actual physics of some form under it, what gets me is that anyone can read just enough to see that quantum physics for example might hold the answers to FTL travel et cetra. I like Star Wars and Star Gate and some other Sci Fi, even though modern science shows that the odds of one planet like Earth are something riddiculous like 146 10x137 (That's 146 followed by 137 zeroes) which I'm told is higher than the odds that either of us will be killed by a sudden reversal of the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics (though I'm not sure how a reversal of Entrophy would kill someone), but the point is that having even just two planets capable of sustaining intelligent life is virtually impossible (although later Terra-forming by later intelligent life might be possible on some planets) and yet there's supposed to be millions in the Star Wars Universe. And that I can somehow ignore, but the concept of such massive consumption of fuel bothers me a lot, so I asked here and you pointed out that Hypermatter stuff that's just jargon which make the whole connundrum worse.

Anyway, thanks again, I'll look into that. EDIT: Having looked at the wiki-article for hypermatter, they say it burns the equivilant of 40 000 tons of matter per second, not actually 40 000 tons of matter per second. I think that's the difference, that hypermatter of lesser weight expounds as much energy per second as 40 000 tons of ordinary matter. VT-16 11:37, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
 * "...sorry to use the discussion area somewhat like an IM...". Hey, you're not the first. ;) Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 20:22, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Not having read up on the subject, the name "Hypermatter" seems to imply a connection with "Hyperspace". Is that used as some sort of explanation? Either matter scavanged/syphoned from the hyperspace dimension or stored in some sort of pocket-universe? (With the engines of a ship being like the Tardis of Doctor Who, greater on the inside than the outside.) VT-16 11:28, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
 * That sounds good. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 22:05, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

I was on the verge of taking the stance that, once again, the folks on the inside (those that get to create that which we debate about... Curtis Saxton is one of the rare ones that got to cross over from the outside to the inside) overdosed on some wierd acid and just made some outrageous numbers up, but then I read over some of your previous stuff here (multiple people), and realized &mdash; just because it states that it can burn an obscene amount of fuel per second does not mean that it does so all the time! Think of it like an afterburner on a jet fighter, or the reactor on a submarine, where it is capable of dumping X (large number) pounds of fuel per second to achieve this speed, or of going to 105% on the reactor to achieve this speed, but for most normal operations, it's doing so at a scaled back consumption amount. Perhaps the Venator is operating at 30% consumption while in common orbit of a planet, or cruising on patrol, and then works up to 50-60% consumption when in battle, going to full "turbo-afterburner-gonzo-boost" 100% consumption when doing something immensely tasking, such as heavy bombardment, or hyperspace jump (I'm using it as an example, don't know for certain). -- Hawke / Rtufo 14:25, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Perhaps... But what's with the different font color? Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 20:08, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
 * We've had this discussion over and over again. Hypermatter is not ordinary matter. It was invented to show how a big starship can expend massive amounts of fuel without needing a huge volume to contain it. VT-16 16:53, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
 * To those who disagree with canon figures: Canon is canon, whether you like it or not. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 18:48, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Further on that point, I reccomend people consider doing math instead of making wild assumptions. I've had discussions with Dr. Saxton and contributed to his power page due to my training in the field.  The fuel numbers as presented are entirely workable, the thing carries enough fuel for about 4 hours of peak reactor ops.  After 4 hours of getting hit by the main guns, there is going to be nothing left, so you don't need that much power.  Hypermatter does nto have to be special fuel, it just has to be regualr fuel stored at high densities, similar to those found in the cores of gas giants and brown dwarfs.  Lowkey 00:59, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
 * So you're like a junior Dr. Saxton? Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) (Data file) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 13:58, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Just someone who does sufficient research and has the appropriate schooling to know what they are talking about. Lowkey 12:45, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Ah, I see. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) (Data file) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 12:52, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
 * So, basically, most capital ships never operate on peak conditions unless it's an extreme situation, to keep going for a much longer time? And afterwards they fill up in a station? That explains the existence of tankers and refueling procedures in SW (like what the X-wings in ANH do before the battle). Since we here on Earth have found ways to simulate extreme astronomical conditions in huge particle accelerators and the like, it stands to reason that much older and advanced societies like the ones in SW, come up with preservation of energy in equally extreme conditions. VT-16 21:35, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
 * True. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) (Data file) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 01:11, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Main reactor can burn 40k tons of fuel per second? riiiiight.....
I removed the line that said this, this was either a typo here or where the submitter found it, or a lie/trolling. 40k tons of fuel per second is like 1/8 of what the our sun burns, this massive amount would fuel several 2nd Death Stars at max hyperspace velocity. Someone please, find out what the true value for this is.
 * That's the number that's in print, and it's consistent with the other numbers in the same book. If you don't like it, go whine to DK Publishing or Lucas Licensing, don't go altering facts to fit your opinion. &mdash;Darth Culator   (talk)  15:55, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Don't remove stuff like that again. It's canon. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 20:27, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Canon only in the ICS, not supported by other sources.
 * ICS is canon, and other sources don't cover the subject. You have no grounds for questioning this number. JimRaynor55 20:03, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's not canon. Live with it. - Darth Culator 20:59, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Well said, Darth Culator. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 21:41, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
 * But I think his point was that that's not physically possible. Are we really supposed to believe it burns twice as much fuel as its entire cargo capacity every second?  The thing's not even big enough to hold the fuel it would take to run for a few seconds, let alone jump to lightspeed.  --Thetoastman 20:03, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, canon says so. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 20:05, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Have you people even read the book? It says "40k tons of hypermatter fuel". Hypermatter is not the same as matter. VT-16 16:43, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Semantic Concern Re: Fighter Capacity
I'm submitting a minor edit in the section regarding fighter complement. Currently, it says that the ship "could support 420 fighters in its bays altogether". I'm fairly certain that all published, official sources say that's what it did support as its regular complement, and doesn't mention if that's the maximum capacity. (In fact, I'd assume that the maximum capacity was higher, if only because it's senseless to force yourself to use all of a resource, i.e. fighter berthing space, as part of regular operation; it would leave no easy alternative if something went amiss. Then again, that's military spending and design for you...)

Until we have confirmation either way, I'm going to render the language a bit more ambiguous as to total capacity, leaving the definitive wording only for the standard complement.--216.83.103.138 15:39, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I personally think that it was fine before your edit, but oh well. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 15:56, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Just wondering why you changed the qualifiers for the period in which it carried the specified complement; it really strikes me as worthwhile clarification. For instance, I pretty strongly doubt that whatever Venators the Empire used still carried any Jedi starfighters--and actually would assume that they outfitted them to carry TIEs at some point, but that's just speculation. It makes sense to me, though, that instead of buying more Clone-era starfighters, they's use their TIEs, a cheaper alternative that more of their pilots specifically trained to fly. Again, that's just pure fan-speculation.--216.83.103.138 16:23, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, when you had "late Republic", it made it sound like it had existed before the end of the Republic. It just didn't sound right. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 16:29, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Ah, swell. If you don't mind, I'll re-edit with an attempt at greater clarity.--216.83.103.138 16:35, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I have no problem with that. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 16:38, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Fighter capacity
why would you want 190 jedi starfighters in the hold? Clones didn't fly them and even if the ship was carrying jedi there would only need to be two or three. Thanks, I didn't know that
 * Um, where did you get the idea that only Jedi flew them?Commodore Axilon 23:51, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Oh boy... Just because they're nicknamed Jedi starfighters doesn't mean only Jedi get to fly them. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 02:17, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Sorry if I sounded a little mean there... I've been having a rough week&mdash;actually, more like two or three weeks. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 19:51, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Note that in Battlefront II, they're nicknamed "Republic starfighters", and I believe they're some kind of elite Imperial fighter in Galaxies - Kwenn 19:52, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Many nicknames for the same craft. Fleet Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 19:56, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, because it makes just soooo much sense to call it a 'Jedi Starfighter' when most aren't flown by Jedi. Good grief. As much as I recognise this as being canon, I would guess that there was a mistake which should have been '192 V-wings OR 192 Jedi Starfighters' rather than '192 V-wings and 192 Jedi Starfighters'. Actually having done some calculations I found that it is physically impossible for the Venator to carry its full load of fighters, especially when you consider that the Venator has the same main weapons as the Imperator, is smaller, and yet carries 350 MORE fighters. Saxton has a lot to answer for. The Venator, as showed in the ROTS:ICS, is a dedicated carrier vessel, more-so than the Imperator (from SW:ICS): Venator - Imperator Despite its size, the Imperator has less volume to store fighters than the Venator. it is not dedicated to hangar facilities. :) The micro-fighters would also not take up as much space as GCW-era fighters. An Eta-2 is much smaller than a TIE fighter, for instance. They are also shown being flown by Imperial pilots in SW: Republic 78. VT-16 21:11, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
 * The Venator is a carrier, unlike the Imperial. Therefore, nothing's wrong. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 11:11, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Exactly. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 21:13, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Plus, anon, your calculations don't replace canon. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 21:15, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Venator picture
Quick question - shouldn't the main pic of the Venator (the one above the stats) be of one in Republic colours? It just strikes me as odd that the main pic we have for the main Republic warship is of it in Imperial colours. By all means the Imp-coloured pic should be kept, perhaps swap two of the pics?
 * Haven't seen the same complete profile picture of it in the Republic version. I'm sure someone can take a good, comprehensive snapshot from ROTS. VT-16 09:31, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
 * What's the difference? Both the Republic and the Empire used them. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 14:52, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
 * The difference is that being a Republic ship, hence the name 'Republic Attack Cruiser', the main picture of it should be in Republic colours. Darth Windu
 * This is basically a Star Destroyer class and paint jobs seem to be more specific to one cruiser while the Imperial version has no colors at all as if it comes fresh from the shipyards. -- Redemption Talk [[Image:Oldrepublic.jpg|15px]] 16:27, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
 * "Republic Attack Cruiser" is a nickname. And it's obviously not called that during the Imperial era. Besides, the Imperial version gives a much better view of the ship, which is what is required in infobox images. Leave it at that. - Kwenn 16:34, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
 * The Republic pictures that were tried out, didn't show the entire ship, like I feel a good profile picture should do. The Imperial one is like that and the only difference is a paint-job, nothing more. If you can find an equivilant picture for the Republic version, that's good, too. :) VT-16 16:52, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
 * But until then, do not change the images around. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 18:23, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I've found another pic of the Venator, uploading now. As I said, the main reason for this is that the main picture of the Venator should be in its rightful Republic colours, whilst of course the Imperial version should be seen as well. Ah there we go, now that is a nice pic :) Darth Windu
 * The picture you uploaded has been deleted. We don't use fan-created images, only images from official sources. -- Ozzel 04:15, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Ah okay, didn't know that. I was wondering why it had been deleted when it was clearly superior. Out of curiousity, why aren't fan-made images allowed? Darth Windu
 * The fact that is was "superior" can be argued (my arguement still stands that the Imperial version looks like it's fresh from the factory and not customized)...And fan-made aren't allowed because they aren't official. If it were allowed, then God knows that the Plagueis page would be filled with it. Also, it's good way to avoid any right violations. Though there are rare cases where they are allowed, but for things like cropping and brightening the image up. Fan-art is not very professional looking on a site where it's trying to be as true and professional as it possibly can be. -- Redemption Talk [[Image:Oldrepublic.jpg|15px]] 05:07, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Fan made images are also allowed on user pages. MyNz 05:09, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Ah, well thanks for the clarification. I personally thought the image looked incredibly good, but I'll just have to try harder to find an official pic. Oh, do officially-licensed models count as 'official'? Darth Windu
 * Yes, but we don't use them for main images or any images in an article. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 14:20, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

The picture of the first Venator in ROTS seems like the most iconic picture of the ship, so maybe we should just use that as the main pic? - lalala_la
 * It's not a good shot, though. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 04:24, 17 October 2006 (PDT)
 * I like the one they have up now, the one who put it up can't remember the source and neither can I, but I'm pretty sure it's official. The CG models of other ROTS vehicles were pictured the same way, with a bird's-eye-view and a slant to the left or right. VT-16 11:52, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I'm pretty sure there's a source for it. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 19:52, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
 * That would be me. :) I can't remember the source because I came across it a long time back and saved it to my hard-drive, and of course didn't save the source. Pretty sure its official because of the detail, plus the quality, layout, and background are identical to the other official pics. Darth Windu
 * I remember seeing it somewhere, but I'm not sure. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 20:03, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Due to the color of the background and the model details this is definitely one of the CG standard model shots taken by ILM. It could have appeared on Art of Revenge on the official site. VT-16 17:19, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't think it was there, but I believe it was on the official site. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 19:10, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Venator weapons
Alright, I've recently noted an issue with the Venator weapons loadout. The official stats say that she has the 8 turbolaser turrets and two twin medium turbolasers. The turrets are obviously on either side of the ship superstrucutre, and as we can see in the main pic, the two mtwin medium turbolasers are near the front of the vessel. However on the page http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Turbolasers, http://www.starwars.com/episode-iii/explore/sithsnap/2005/08/sithsnap20050804.html, and the picture http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Image:Turbolaser_explosion.jpg, we can clearly see a turbolaser exploding on a Venator that is just as clearly none of the aforementioned turbolasers. Anyone know what the explanation is? Darth Windu
 * I'm not sure if the internal turbolasers from the film are accounted for on the picture, or if they appear on the overall stat sheet. They might have been part of the point-defense laser cannons, since their line of fire is so limited. If anything, "laser cannon" in this case could just be shorthand for "turbolaser cannon". VT-16 07:11, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Probably. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 20:17, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Forces of Corruption?
Does it really appear in the actual game, no code-fixing necessary this time? VT-16 21:54, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I think so. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 22:24, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I see someone mentioning it in the Skirmish mode and on the demo, one belonged to a Mandalorian leader. Can someone with the game elaborate on this? It's for the article. :) VT-16 10:51, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I'll see if my friend got it yet. Maybe he could help. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 13:51, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, it's in FoC. Purchasable in Skirmish. Jorrel Fraajic 18:36, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Yep. It's the ship of the Mandalorian leader, and there are a bunch of them floating in debris fields. -- Darth Culator  (Talk)(TINC) 19:31, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
 * So the Mandalorians have their hands on a Venator. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 21:01, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I heard somewhere that they were only purchasable by the Consortium, but that may have been in story mode. So, in Skirmish mode, they can be purchased by all three sides? That would warrant a small addition to the infobox. 8D VT-16 22:01, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Logically, though, these ships wouldn't be ones that are being actively built. I figure if you're going to translate game mechanics into reality (which is generally a terrible idea, but let's indulge) that the time and cost involved with deploying a "new" Venator or Victory or Acclamator is actually related to refurbishing and crewing a mothballed ship. And for the Rebels, stealing and then refurbishing and crewing a ship. So if we were to change the infobox, we'd have to say "*Rebel Alliance (after 0 BBY); *Zann Consortium (after 0 BBY)" or something similar. -- Darth Culator  (Talk)(TINC) 22:35, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Of course, the only part of games I mention in articles, are which craft are available to which people at a given time, not what firepower it has in the game or that the size in-game is correct or properly proportioned. The only reason I've been asking about the "future" of the Venator-class, is that despite its major flaw (the hangar-opening providing a good target), the class is just as powerful as the Victory and if that can get reused and recycled, wouldn't this class at least be given work with second- or third-rate Imperial units? So it's nice to see they finally added it and thereby give a certain amount of closure to it. (And I really, really wanted to see it in the GCW era) :P VT-16 23:03, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Me, too. The Venator-class is a great carrier; it definitely hasn't had enough time in the post-RotS Galaxy. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 01:24, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
 * If the Mandalorians had Venators, we have a category to add. --Mr. Perfection 20:02, 18 November 2006 (UTC)


 * No the Mandalorians only had ONE Venator and it was Serving as the Mandalorian Leader (Mandalore?s) Ship I(I don't remembe if it was Mandalore him self or a Clan Leader)
 * One Venator or a thousand, it doesn't make a difference. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 20:55, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Year Introduced
Can we say what year it was introduced?
 * Only if we know what year it was introduced. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 23:46, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Well when does MedStar II take place?--Herbsewell 00:30, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
 * 20 BBY. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 03:07, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Well there you go.--Herbsewell 03:09, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I'll add it in, then. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 03:17, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

On Hypermatter - Paging the math and physics guys...
An interesting tidbit from the WotC site may lend some insight into the Hypermatter issue: Jedi Counseling 94

One fuel cell for a "colossal" ship holds 100 tons of actual matter. A fuel cell has enough fuel for "one hour of combat, sublight travel (ramming speed), or atmospheric flight." A Venator-class SD burns 'up to' the equivalent of 40,000 tons of fuel per second.

3,600 seconds in an hour. 40,000 tons per second. 144,000,000 equivalent tons of hypermatter per hour=100 tons of actual matter per hour. 1 actual ton of hypermatter = 1,440,000 equivalent tons of actual matter. Probably less depending on the circumstances of full reactor burn, but definitely somewhere in that ballpark.

Now, math and physics guys, tell me how I'm wrong. Or not. -- Darth Culator  (Talk)(TINC) 20:45, 19 November 2006 (UTC) Let me try to clarify this. The fuel cell holds 100 actual tons. This is enough fuel for an hour of combat. The Venator's reactor expends hypermatter to produce energy equivalent to annhiliating 40,000 tons of matter per second. This would be the equivalent of 144,000,000 tons of matter in an hour. So the fuel cell holding hypermatter, which only masses 100 tons, is equal to annihilating 144,000,000 tons of matter in a pure conversion to energy. So one actual physical ton of hypermatter has the energy equivalent of annihilating 1,440,000 tons of plain regular matter.
 * Uh... I was sort of good at physics, but I'm just confused now. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 20:51, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Wouldn't it be 1 actual ton of actual matter=1,440,000 equivalent tons of hypermatter?--Herbsewell 19:35, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I think that would make more sense. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 19:37, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Wouldn't it be 100 tons of Hypermatter fuel (in the fuel cell) produces the same amount of energy as 144,000,000 tons ordinary fuel (which cannot fit in the fuel cell)? VT-16 00:07, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
 * That's what I meant. Some people have a way with words. Other people just... not have way. -- Darth Culator  (Talk)(TINC) 00:41, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I think that's right. I was a little confused, but I think I'm getting it now. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 01:33, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Is actual matter regular matter?--Herbsewell 16:50, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Does that make more sense? I'm having trouble converting it from random thoughts in my brain into ideas that other humans can understand. The numbers are probably smaller depending on what percent of maximum reactor burn the ship maintains during a full hour of combat, but it gives us an idea of what ballpark the hypermatter numbers are in. -- Darth Culator  (Talk)(TINC) 17:24, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
 * It does. "Hypermatter" (Chemical symbol Bs) is a handy invention for when you need to explain how sci-fi ships the size of moons can travel half a galaxy in less than a day without shoving massive red giant stars into a giant furnace for use as fuel. ;P VT-16 17:33, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Thank God for hypermatter. ;) Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 21:36, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Would you need so much matter? A spoonful of matter converted into energy would destroy a city.  A houseful would crack the earth.--Herbsewell 21:41, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, powering Star Destroyers for a long time would require matter that wouldn't destroy the ship. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 21:44, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
 * So the reactors are just inefficient?--Herbsewell 21:46, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Or maybe hypermatter is just plain better. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 21:48, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes but why would you need it if converting matter into energy is enough to power anything?--Herbsewell 21:51, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Maybe they just found out that hypermatter proved better than regular matter in the long run. In any case, your questions really can't be answered. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 21:54, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Well that's no reason for them not be asked.--Herbsewell 21:55, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, it is. There's no point in asking questions that can't be answered. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 21:57, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
 * You're kidding right?--Herbsewell 21:58, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
 * No. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 22:00, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Do you realize that most of modern thinking is based on the premise of "asking questions that can't be answered"?--Herbsewell 22:03, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
 * But these questions of yours could only be answered in a Galaxy far, far away. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 22:52, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Or Leland Chee.--Herbsewell 23:09, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
 * True... Worth a shot. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 23:10, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Just putting this out there but did u ever think that maybe the star wars people didnt do the actual calculations and just threw out a random number to confuse and piss off fans69.26.85.141 23:15, 28 November 2006 (UTC) I believe the whole point of hypermatter was to explain all the impossible physics of Star Wars. From my limited understanding of the situation, the destruction of Alderaan required more energy than could be produced if the mass of the entire DSI was converted directly into energy and infused into Alderaan's core. So we invent a form of fuel that's so powerful that the "stellar fuel bottles" around the DS reactor core contain enough to perform the station's otherwise-impossible feats.
 * Jack there has to be a better way to end these discussions besides saying ambiguously that it'll be brought up to Chee and he'll sort it out.--Herbsewell 23:18, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm not try to end the discussion. I was just saying that we should try asking Chee. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 00:44, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Well Jack in these discussions it either "ends", (and by ends I mean the issue is almost considered ended) in two ways. (1) We say that we Leland Chee we'll figure it out, or (2) We argue with each other on some personal interest until someone breaks us up.--Herbsewell 11:32, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, I'm not trying to end it, even if it seems that asking Leland Chee is ending it. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 12:05, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I think it's unlikely that the actual statistics of hypermatter have been quantified in canon, but combining the "fuel cell" concept from the RPG with the annihilation rate from the ICS can give us some ideas. -- Darth Culator  (Talk)(TINC) 15:02, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeah, that's true. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 20:27, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
 * My lead-ball analogy earlier (which somebody deleted) came from asking just that question. What is hypermatter.  If I had a fist full of it, would it weigh as much as an asteroid?  Could it power Minneapolis for a year?  I don't expect Lucas to invent every little detail of the stuff, just give us something beyond "40,000 tons/second"  If those cruisers are lifting 2 years of fuel, repulsers must be dirt cheap.
 * Well, we need to ask Chee. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 12:17, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I think it's best to assume that the reactors are inefficient and do not completely convert the matter into energy (if they did they would have no exhaust). It may be possible that wile hypermatter converts into energy when it combines with regular matter, the reactors can not completely utilize and store the energy (though I'm at a loss as to what happens to the exhaust because it should be able to destroy an entire planet by itself).  The best science fiction authors that write in a technologically progressing universe make the technology seem light years ahead of the current real world technology but always leave room for improvement.  That's probably the reason why a lot of fans disliked Dark Empire because it was ridiculous how technologically advanced they had become in only a few years (like tanks absorbing laser fire and aircraft that housed pilot's brains).--Herbsewell 02:52, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I suppose so. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 14:14, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Has anyone done any research on this subject?--Herbsewell 17:17, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Define "research". Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 20:46, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
 * As in someone has a canon, scientific explanation on this.--Herbsewell 21:12, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Then no, I don't have any research on it. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 21:13, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Don't assume I was speaking of you. I was asking if there was a canon explanation made by some official.--Herbsewell 21:23, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I know you weren't speaking of me. I was just answering your question. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 21:30, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
 * "I don't have any research", you said that as if I was asking it of you.--Herbsewell 21:32, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, it seemed like a question directed to anyone at the time. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 21:42, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
 * It was. I was asking if anyone had, not you.  If I had wanted that information I would have asked it.--Herbsewell 23:06, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
 * So you were asking everyone but me. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 23:08, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I asked in the continuity thread on starwars.com, but I doubt there's anything beyond the tidbits in the ICS. -- Darth Culator  (Talk)(TINC) 23:12, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
 * No. If someone had done research I had expected someone to tell me.  I expected someone to say that someone had done it and then they would give me a source.  If I wanted to know if you specifically had done research I would have asked it.--Herbsewell 23:13, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Culator: It's unfortunate, because I think you're right. Herbsewell: I don't want a big issue out of this, but you said "No" to my question, and then you said "If I wanted to know if you specifically had done research I would have asked it". It seems like that's yes and no. But, like I said, I don't want another issue. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 23:15, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I never contradicted myself. I was asking if anyone had done research.--Herbsewell 23:17, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Whatever. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 23:18, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

As the person who wrote Jedi Counseling 94, I can shed some light on the subject. First, I had to make different sources on fuels and consumption rates match up. Star Wars Adventure Journal #5 first introduced the concept of a fuel cell (specifically, the Imperial Mark IV Fuel Cell) along with what 1 fuel cell could do, how many a tramp freighter (in this case, a YT-1300) would hold, and how much they cost to replace (50 credits). Second, the Star Wars Roleplaying Game Core Rulebook (and Revised Core Rulebook) both establish that 1 kg of fuel costs 50 credits. Given this, and starting with the assumption that the fuel in the Core Rulebook is the same as the fuel in fuel cells, it was possible to calculate that a fuel cell holds 1 kg of fuel. After that, I worked from the assumption that for every increase in size category, a ship uses 10 times as much fuel. (A size category is approximately doubled in all dimensions, sometimes a bit more, so it averages out to about a tenfold increase in mass.) From this, and using the rules established in Adventure Journal #6, it was possible to calculate that a Venator would hold 736 fuel cells, a total weight of 73,600 metric tons of fuel.

However, I was keenly aware of the numbers in ROTS:ICS (I'd referenced them extensively when writing the Revenge of the Sith Collection for the Wizards of the Coast website), and I was also aware that the mass annihilation Saxton lists was derived assuming that relatively normal real-world physics were at work (e.g. calculating energy based on the luminance and size of engines, assuming that thrust was emitted at near the speed of light, etc.) -- and, more importantly, his numbers absolutely would not work if they represented "real" weights. (Even assuming that peak power consumption is 24 times faster than normal, meaning it would only have to last 736 hours, it would require fuel stores of 1.06x10^11 metic tons -- that is far too much because the thrust Saxton calculated as being required would no longer be enough to move the ship while it carried that fuel.)

Thus, I concluded that the masses listed in ROTS:ICS were "virtual" mass. Here's how it works (and it's essentially based on the same technology as inertial compensators): The sublight drives on starships (e.g. H-K ion engines, etc.) produce a limited warping of the space-time continuum that makes the starship's mass relative to the rest of the universe much lower than it "really" is; by doing so, the motive thrust provided by a given mass of reaction mass accelerated to a given velocity is multiplied, thereby making absurdly high accelerations (thousands of Gs) over extended periods possible without carrying insane amounts of reaction mass. In this case, the "relative mass gradient" works out to 1.44x10^6-to-1. (As a comparison, this relative mass gradient would allow the real-world space shuttle to reach orbit using about 2.6 pounds of fuel.) So, in conclusion, it's not hypermatter itself at work here -- it's just the complex inner workings of sublight engines themselves that make the relative masses of the ship much lower than that of the reaction mass, and this virtual mass is reported in ROTS:ICS because that's what would traditionally be used for calculating things like specific impulse and so forth.

(Also, in addition to my word as the Jedi Counselor, this is the reasoning I put in comments on the column when it was sent to Leeland and company for approval -- given that they approved it for publication, I'm assuming they agreed that my behind-the-scenes explanation was a reasonable way to justify the two radically different numbers as well as a way to explain the incredibly large numbers in ROTS:ICS.) -- Gary M. Sarli (Jedi Counselor) 00:09, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
 * ...I have no idea what you just said, but I'll take your word for it. -- SFH 00:26, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm glad we have a Star Wars author here to help us out. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 00:33, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
 * That sounds reasonable. Thanks for the clarification, Mr. Sarli. :D VT-16 15:56, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Indeed. Hopefully Mr. Sarli can help us out with other things as well. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 21:22, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Well he does have a life..unlike us.--Herbsewell 21:44, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
 * That was unnecessary and rude, Herbsewell. Grand Admiral J. Nebulax (Imperial Holovision) [[Image:Implogo.jpg|20px]] 21:46, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Wouldn't it be easier to say that the fuel itself is converted at a 1.44e6: 1 mass ratio in the reactor?

Not to be rude, but I think it would be so much better if the authors went with what have already been established and use that as a proper basis instead. Northerner 05:34, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
 * He did. He had two conflicting accounts he had to reconcile, with one of them having serious physical ramifications.  He did so rather brilliantly. jSarek 05:59, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I don't see what needed to be reconciled. There's no reason to believe that the fuel cell above was necessarily a hypermatter fuel cell- if you read JC94, you'll see the rule presupposes that there is simply one kind of fuel in all the galaxy. Starfighters do not all equip hypermatter reactors, as we know from the canon- its the minority, if any. Basically, it's a good illustration of the abstraction and such you'll use for an RPG ruleset, and should not be rigorously applied to the entirety of the canon as a whole (ie. a Venator-class Star Destroyer does not carry 736 100 metric ton capacity fuel cells- check the RotS:ICS). And as a point of logic- a fuel cell costing 50 credits and 1kg of fuel (assuming its the same fuel, which is not guaranteed) costingg 50 credits does not mean that a 50 credit fuel cell carries 1kg of fuel.Vymer 06:32, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
 * EDIT Addendum: i.e., the EGV&V, page xv (preface): "Most ships rely on power cells, although the Hoersch-Kessel drive can be converted to use heavy metals, liquid reactants, or virtually any substance as fuel." That's just the HK drive, note. We know that hypermatter reactors don't power every ship in the galaxy (ie. certainly not starfighters, as assumed by the rule), and we also know that fusion reactors are used to confine the hypermatter reactors on large warships (AotC:ICS, page 3): "most starships use fusion systems that confine more-powerful hypermatter annihilation cores" . A fuel cell need not have anything to do with the hypermatter reactor directly whatsoever.Vymer 06:59, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I should also point out that the mass figures are for the purpose of determining peak power output of the various reactors. These are explicitly listed in Watts in the AotC:ICS. Are the ships annihilating "virtual" mass to achieve this power output? (obviously, that's nonsensical.) This is afterall where the 3.6x10^24W figure on the article comes from. It's a non-explicit tool for conveying power output that's already been explicitly detailed in the same orders of magnitude in other sources.Vymer 06:44, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
 * *Paging Dr. Hawking. Paging Dr. Hawking. Your assistance is needed.* -- Riffsyphon1024 07:07, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
 * LOL. Actually I'd say Dr. Saxton, the author :) Vymer 07:10, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

"He did. He had two conflicting accounts he had to reconcile, with one of them having serious physical ramifications. He did so rather brilliantly."

No, he worked from his own assumptions and there aren't any "serious physical ramifications" as those assumptions are flawed.Northerner 17:48, 5 January 2007 (UTC)