Forum:CT Archive/Article Names: Real vs. Adopted

There's been a lengthy debate going on at Qymaen jai Sheelal over whether the article should really be there instead of at "Grievous". Some say it's more professional and encyclopedic to use birth names (and that redirects prevent any subsequent confusion), while others say the same about whatever name the individual used last, and/or was more widely known as, citing Mark Twain on Wikipedia as one such example. As the result of this debate could set precedent for the moving of many other articles, such as Padme Amidala, Mara Jade Skywalker, Leia Organa Solo, and so on, I felt it was worth discussion amongst a larger audience. CooperTFN 18:22, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Birth Names

 * 1) Tam 18:30, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
 * 2) Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 19:56, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
 * 3) Kwenn 20:26, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
 * 4) Imp 22:40, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Final/Most Well-Known Names

 * 1) CooperTFN 18:22, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
 * 2) StarNeptune 18:45, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
 * 3) &mdash;Silly Dan (talk) 18:55, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
 * 4) Cull Tremayne 19:08, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
 * 5) Tinwe 20:44, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
 * 6) RMF 22:34, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
 * 7) --MarcK [talk] 23:54, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
 * 8) Divinity 12:55, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
 * 9) Azizlight 13:49, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
 * 10) Sikon [ Talk ] 16:13, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Comments
but other cases should be considered individually. Indeed, leaving Grievous with that unintelligible birth name would require changing Padme Amidala to Padme Naberrie, Leia Organa Solo to Leia Skywalker and so on; however, Thrawn is a more ambiguous issue, and for other articles the judgment can be different. - Sikon [ Talk ] 18:43, 26 February 2006 (UTC) Wikipedia already has a policy on this. To quote: "Generally, article naming should give priority to what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, while at the same time making linking to those articles easy and second nature."
 * I was in favor of birth names at first, but when holding the Grievous precedent up against articles like Mara and Padme, I think the last-used name really would be better. CooperTFN 18:22, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Don't think it makes a desperate difference (especially not when we can throw redirects around and stuff) but I'd say I favour birth names. Tam 18:33, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Grievous was an overkill. I think that we should stick with two policies:
 * 1) for Sith Lords, real names should always be preferred to Darth aliases;
 * 2) titles (Emperor, General etc.) are always omitted
 * It may not make a difference, but it does make it consistent with the naming conventions of all the other articles. Cuurently, we have some character articles at their birth names (i.e. Qymaen jai Sheelal, Aaylas'ecura, etc) and some using their last known name (i.e. Padme, Leia, Mara, Lumiya, Hal Horn, etc). People are more likely to search for the more well known name than a possibly obscure birth one. StarNeptune 18:45, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
 * The searches are nicely taken care of by redirects...but people are more likely to link to the best known name. I suggest the best-known version of the last proper name used should be the article location &mdash; i.e., Thrawn, Greivous, Mara Jade Skywalker, Leia Organa Solo (the latter two seem to use their maiden name as part of a compund last name.)  Two problems I can see with this are Darths who operated under their real name and their Sith name at the same time (like Dooku/Darth Tyrannus) and characters whose change of name in their latest appearance constitutes a spoiler (whose articles wouldn't be moved until a few months after publication). &mdash;Silly Dan (talk) 18:55, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm actually fine with Thrawn staying at Mitth'raw'nuruodo and same with the Twi'leks as that's probably how a "real life" encyclopedia in the SW universe would have them. However, I'm not going to lose sleep if they're titled as their most well known name either. With changed names due to marriage or the choice of that person, I say stay with the most recent. It's more encyclopedic that way. I agree with Dan that the Sith Lord situation should probably be a different case, since in a "real life" universe, some could misunderstand the Darth thing as an alias rather than a real name change. However, I'd probably advocate keeping all the Darth's at their Darth titles, since (as it seems to me) their old name becomes an alias when they become a Sith Lord. (Yes, that would mean switching Palpatine to Darth Sidious and Dooku to Darth Tyrannus) Cull Tremayne 19:08, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
 * As for Grievous, see the bottom of Talk:Grievous for a suggestion. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 19:55, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
 * And Cull Tremayne, for Palpatine and Dooku, those are either their last or best-known names, not Darth Sidious and Darth Tyranus. Plus, Palpatine and Dooku are both their birth names. Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 19:59, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I think articles like Thrawn and Aayla should stay where they are, because there it's not a birth name vs. adopted name issue. Aayla Secura and Thrawn are as much their names as Aaylas'ecura and Muiith'raw'nuruodo are; the latter two are simply their full names. It'd be like putting Chewbacca at Chewie. CooperTFN 20:13, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I think we should try and set a Wiki-wide standard for things like this, which we can't do if we use the last known names. As mentioned above, it would be a case-by-case analysis of the article, which would undoubtedly spawn more pointless debates over naming convention&mdash;is it their "official" name, is it a nickname, what about names taken in marriage etc etc. Characters only have one birth name, so there can be no dispute over that if implemented. And yes, redirects take care of people searching for the more famous name. And remember, all we have to do is monitor the double redirects page for any links not leading directly to the so-called "obscure name"&mdash;though I don't see how saying something is too obscure qualifies as an argument on a Wiki that strives to create articles on every single element of the Saga, no matter how obscure or insignificent - Kwenn 20:26, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Jack, I don't think I understand. Tyrannus and Sidious were obviously their last names that they assumed. I realize that Palpatine and Dooku are obviously birth names. I admit that they're best known as Dooku and Palpatine, but so is Thrawn. As I said, it seems to me that when they become Sith Lords they change their names and use their former names as an alias when working in the public eye. Cull Tremayne 20:30, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't think it's a matter of being obscure, it's a matter of being encyclopedic which I thought was something this wiki strove to be like. If we go by a case by case basis I think we can probably figure out what it is that the character would call his or herself (disregarding the Sith Lord situation of course). Cull Tremayne 20:46, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Cull, Palpatine used didn't use Sidious during his time as Emperor, and Dooku was still best known as "Dooku", not "Tyranus". Admiral J. Nebulax (talk) 22:02, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Right, I understand that, like I said they use their old names when in the public eye. We should probably have a different policy when dealing with Sith Lords. Cull Tremayne 22:11, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I'd be in favor of the birth name thing if it weren't for married names, because as much as I'd like consistency (and I think Qymaen jai Sheelal makes for a great title, and I like the idea of a Star Wars encyclopedia having obscure things like that in a prominent position), I just can't see Leia under Leia Amidala Skywalker. I'd say it's a matter of whether the character would ever go by their original name.  So Sidious does still go by Palpatine and Thrawn is still Mitth'raw'nuruodo, while Grievous gives up the name Qymaen.  The Sith business is tricky, though; are the Darth names (and Lumiya) aliases, or genuine name changes?  Is Lumiya just something Shira Brie goes by, or did Shira Brie become Lumiya in her own mind as well?  Did Dessel become Darth Bane entirely, or is it a title that he took on?  And so forth.  And for that matter, what if a character has an equal amount of information under both names (Lumiya's article is almost half about her life as Shira, for example)?  Or even if most of the info is on them under their previous name (as we may get with someone like Darth Nihilus)?  I don't really know, but these are things to consider. - Lord Hydronium 22:15, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

- Wikipedia page

I couldn't have said it better. RMF 22:34, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Also, Mark Twain is not the only example of this on WP:
 * Bill Clinton (not William Jefferson Clinton)
 * Tony Blair (not Anthony Charles Lynton Blair)
 * Julius Caesar (not Imperator Gaius Iulius Caesar Divus)
 * Dog (not Canis lupus familiaris), etc --RMF 22:38, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Can I just add that putting two names as the article name (like Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader, for example) is something we're better off avoiding? &mdash;Silly Dan (talk) 22:49, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Absolutely&mdash;completely unprofessional and terrible-looking. Either of the above options is better than that. By the way, there is no mention of naming conventions in the Manual of Style. Something should probably be added following whatever we decide here. RMF 23:22, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
 * We have Naming conventions, but it's a badly wookified Wikipedia fork. By the way, renaming the Aayla Secura article was an overkill too. However, I think both Thrawn and Mitth'raw'nuruodo are fine titles. - Sikon [ Talk ] 16:12, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Incidentally, what has to happen with the voting before a policy can be decided on this? I don't think we'll ever all agree. CooperTFN 04:42, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Subdiscussion: Darths
Should characters using the "Darth" title be under:
 * 1) Darth Whatever (alphabetized in the categories as Whatever, Darth)
 * 2) Whatever
 * 3) Their non-Sith name, if known

I would argue for the second option, with two exceptions: Dooku and Palpatine, since their pre-Sith names are known, and were used openly and prominently by those characters (indicating they didn't change their names so much as adopt a Sith alias.) &mdash;Silly Dan (talk) 23:08, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
 * In general, if a Darth's real name is known, then it's preferrable. (For example, Revan instead of Darth Revan, Dooku instead of Darth Tyranus, Kreia instead of Darth Traya, but Darth Maul, Darth Nihilus etc.) Otherwise, it's complete with the Darth title, as it's considered part of the name. - Sikon [ Talk ] 05:06, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I disagree. There is no good reason for Darth Bane to be at Dessel, for example, since he clearly abandons that name early and is known to history solely as Darth Bane. QuentinGeorge 05:10, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
 * What I think for Darths:
 * Palpatine not Darth Sidious
 * Dooku not Darth Tyranus
 * Darth Maul not Khameir Sarin/Unnamed Zabrak :)
 * Darth Malak not Malak
 * Darth Zannah not Rain/Zannah
 * Kreia not Darth Traya
 * Darth Bane not Dessel
 * Revan not Darth Revan QuentinGeorge 05:14, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Subdiscussion: "Foreign" names
One could make the arguement that Twi'lek names like Aaylas'ecura or Chiss names like Mitth'raw'nuruodo are the names of the characters in their native language, while their Galactic Basic Standard/English names are Aayla Secura and Thrawn. In that case, would it make sense to use the latter name as the article title? &mdash;Silly Dan (talk) 23:08, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
 * You could make that argument for Aayla, because that's exactly the case. "Thrawn", however, is not Mitth'raw'nuruodo in Basic; it's essentially a nickname, used in and out of Chiss society. Like I said earlier, it'd be tantamount to putting Chewbacca at Chewie. CooperTFN 04:40, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree with Cooper on Thrawn - it's clear he never abandons his name, nor changes it - since the Chiss still know him as that. Thrawn is merely a shortened version to ease pronounciation for us rube Core-Worlders. ;) QuentinGeorge 05:15, 28 February 2006 (UTC)