Forum:CT:Use of the Film Template

Forums > Consensus track archive > CT:Use of the Film Template

This page is an archive of a community-wide discussion. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made in the Senate Hall or new Consensus Track pages rather than here so that this page is preserved as a historic record.
The result of the debate was Use Film template in Appearances and references; no consensus for usage in prose. 1358 ^(Talk) 20:10, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

---

The Proposal

A user recently joined Discord with some questions about appearances, initially asking about sorting the appearances section by media type in order to easily find the movies and tv shows. They also asked why the TV shows (and comics, magazines, etc) have little icons but the movies do not. This led to some discussion about utilising a template, adding an image and doing something to highlight the movies in large appearances lists, given they are the core of the Star Wars universe.

As a result, Template:Film was created and, in error, made live while using images and bold formatting. A Separate Senate Hall thread will be made to discuss options of using an icon/images and bolding the template, with a possible CT to update the template based on that discussion.

This CT is to codify the usage of the template as-is with the normal formatting used. This essentially reduces the requirement for editors to type [[Star Wars: Episode V The Empire Strikes Back|''Star Wars'': Episode V ''The Empire Strikes Back'']] to {{Film|V}}. The template currently has one parameter to designate which film, and this is only for the 9 saga films (ie, Rogue One, Solo, Caravan of Courage, etc are currently excluded). This also ensures the correct formatting: users unfamiliar with the formatting for the movies may incorrectly format the entire title with italics.

Example of the existing template: Star Wars: Episode V The Empire Strikes Back

In short, I believe use of the template across all areas will ensure consistency and correct formatting whilst also making it easier on editors.

The Votes

Use of Film template in appearances

Template:Film is to be used in the Appearances section

Support

1. Manoof (he/him/his) (talk) 06:10, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
2. YakovChaimTzvi (he/him/his) (talk) 06:24, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
3. As with {{TCW}}, I think this is only beneficial if an accompanying image is used, and I think it's straightforward that the image form should only be used for the Appearances section, so that could be clarified in the next SH/CT. OOM 224 09:23, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
4. 01miki10 ^{Open comlink} 10:45, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
5. LucaRoR ^(Talk) 13:14, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
6. Imperators II^(Talk) 18:19, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
7. 1358 ^(Talk) 18:32, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
8. Cade Calrayn 19:41, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
9. DarthRuiz30 (talk) 20:22, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
10. IFYLOFD ^(Talk) 22:05, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
11. JediMasterMacaroni^(Talk) 22:12, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
12. Green Tentacle ^(Talk) 22:55, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
13. MasterFred(talk) 23:02, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
14. Stake black ^msg 23:52, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
15. Supreme Emperor ^Holocomm 01:15, 19 October 2021 (UTC)
16. JMAS ^{Hey, it's me!} 01:27, 19 October 2021 (UTC)
17. Fan26 (Talk) 02:26, 19 October 2021 (UTC)
18. NanoLuuke^{Cloning facility} 10:08, 19 October 2021 (UTC)
19. Dentface (talk) 16:06, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
20. Zed42 (talk) 20:09, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
21. I don't like the black backgrounds in the light mode. I'd very much prefer it the dark mode one was used for light mode. --Vitus Infinitus^Talk 02:11, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

Oppose

1. I don't see the need for this template, and I don't like it. SilverSunbird (talk) 01:10, 19 October 2021 (UTC)

Use of Film template in references

Template:Film is to be used when sourcing the saga films in the Notes and references section

Support

1. Manoof (he/him/his) (talk) 06:10, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
2. YakovChaimTzvi (he/him/his) (talk) 06:24, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
3. OOM 224 09:23, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
4. 01miki10 ^{Open comlink} 10:45, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
5. LucaRoR ^(Talk) 13:14, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
6. Imperators II^(Talk) 18:19, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
7. 1358 ^(Talk) 18:32, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
8. Cade Calrayn 19:41, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
9. DarthRuiz30 (talk) 20:22, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
10. IFYLOFD ^(Talk) 22:05, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
11. JediMasterMacaroni^(Talk) 22:12, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
12. Green Tentacle ^(Talk) 22:55, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
13. MasterFred(talk) 23:02, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
14. Stake black ^msg 23:52, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
15. Supreme Emperor ^Holocomm 01:15, 19 October 2021 (UTC)
16. JMAS ^{Hey, it's me!} 01:28, 19 October 2021 (UTC)
17. Fan26 (Talk) 02:27, 19 October 2021 (UTC)
18. NanoLuuke^{Cloning facility} 10:08, 19 October 2021 (UTC)
19. Dentface (talk) 16:06, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
20. Zed42 (talk) 20:09, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
21. Per my above vote --Vitus Infinitus^Talk 02:11, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

Oppose

1. SilverSunbird (talk) 01:10, 19 October 2021 (UTC)

Use of Film template in prose

Template:Film is allowed for optional use in prose text e.g. in Behind the scenes section for IU articles, or Published Works section for OOU real people articles. This user option can make it easier when discussing in prose. For example, Star Wars: Episode V The Empire Strikes Back and Star Wars: Episode VIII The Last Jedi share several similarities as part of the poetic symmetry noted by George Lucas, such as the Battle of Hoth and the Battle of Crait.

An additional optional parameter {{Film|Film number|prose}} is to be added to the template to specify when the template is used outside the Appearances/Notes and references sections. This optional parameter will simplify any possible changes to the template in future, without requiring a second template and allowing any separate formatting changes to occur independently (eg application of an icon/image for appearances/reflists)

Support

1. Manoof (he/him/his) (talk) 06:10, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
2. YakovChaimTzvi (he/him/his) (talk) 06:24, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
3. LucaRoR ^(Talk) 13:14, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
4. Imperators II^(Talk) 18:19, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
5. JediMasterMacaroni^(Talk) 22:12, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
6. For me, "we don't do this with other templates" isn't a valid reason to not start doing it if it greatly reduces character counts and makes things more convenient. MasterFred(talk) 23:02, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
7. With the caveat that we don't use the little icons while in prose. Stake black ^msg 23:52, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
   • That's the idea of the additional parameter to be able to "turn off" any additional formatting that we would want in Appearances or Notes and references including an icon. I don't think anyone wants that :) Manoof (he/him/his) (talk) 03:34, 19 October 2021 (UTC)
8. Supreme Emperor ^Holocomm 01:15, 19 October 2021 (UTC)
9. 100% per Stake. If used in prose, no icon, or my vote changes to oppose. - JMAS ^{Hey, it's me!} 01:30, 19 October 2021 (UTC)
10. Some of you haven't had to write movie title wikilink correctly and it shows. More seriously, I'm all for it, and it would save me (and other OOU editors) a lot of time in the long run. --NanoLuuke^{Cloning facility} 10:08, 19 October 2021 (UTC)
11. Pros outweight cons, and I don't see any cons being raised here. OOM 224 15:56, 19 October 2021 (UTC)
12. If it makes things easier, I don't see why not. Zed42 (talk) 20:09, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
13. Upon further reflection, I'm changing my vote to support. I 100% agree with Stake. As long as there's no icon in-prose, I'm all for this. Dentface (talk) 03:34, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

Oppose

1. I don't believe we do this with any other citation template. Although I'm fine giving this template a chance to work in Refs and appearances, I personally don't believe this is something we should do.--DarthRuiz30 (talk) 08:43, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

   Yeah, perhaps adding a function to subst the wikicode for episodic films into articles would make editing easier (like the various talk page templates), but templates shouldn't be used in the prose. OOM 224 09:12, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

   • Could you maybe elaborate as to why is it that templates shouldn't be used in prose? For example, Wikipedia uses this template in prose in order to do automatic measurement unit conversion - and there are plans to adopt a similar template for converting between our various IU date notation systems (BBY/ABY, GrS, etc.) ... in prose. I'd imagine that being able to short-hand {{Film|5}} instead of the full [[Star Wars: Episode V The Empire Strikes Back|''Star Wars'': Episode V ''The Empire Strikes Back'']] anywhere in the article would be a massive boon to editors. (And to simultaneously respond to Ruiz's comment, I do believe that we can make an exception for this particular oh-so-significant template, especially given how much it reduces the number of characters that need to be typed.) Imperators II^(Talk) 12:47, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
     • Not sure what made me say that, tbh. Making use of templates in prose would expedite the editing process and, yeah, it's a pretty simple thing to do, even with that added "prose" parameter present. OOM 224 17:34, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
2. 01miki10 ^{Open comlink} 10:45, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
3. Per Ruiz. 1358 ^(Talk) 18:32, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
4. Cade Calrayn 19:41, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
5. IFYLOFD ^(Talk) 22:05, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
6. Green Tentacle ^(Talk) 22:55, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
7. SilverSunbird (talk) 01:10, 19 October 2021 (UTC)
8. Fan26 (Talk) 02:28, 19 October 2021 (UTC)

   Dentface (talk) 16:06, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

The Discussion

• If all votes are opposed, the template will be deleted. Manoof (he/him/his) (talk) 12:10, 15 October 2021 (UTC)
• I would change the template so that if {{Film|1}} is used, the image gets automatically displayed. If {{Film|1|prose}} is used, the image is not displayed. As it is now, I don't understand the difference between having |prose and not having it, and how the image works in the template. LucaRoR ^(Talk) 06:26, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
  • Hi Luca, |prose would remove the image so that it is excluded when in prose. At this stage we do not have an image, the parameter is to provide the distinction so that any formatting changes the community desire specifically in Appearances/source, such as an image, can be excluded from prose incidents of the template without breaking anything or requiring bots. At this stage there is no difference because that is an additional conversation/vote to update. It should be a simple matter of updated coding to utilise alphanumeric numerals instead of roman numerals, or in addition to (Ie both {{Film|V}} and {{Film|5}} would render the same. Manoof (he/him/his) (talk) 07:41, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
    • I already made it accept either 5 or V and produce exactly the same behavior —- YakovChaimTzvi (he/him/his) (talk) 11:43, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
      • I see, thanks, the difference will be there only when the template is updated, if I've understood correctly. —Unsigned comment by LucaRoR (talk • contribs).
        • Yes exactly :) Manoof (he/him/his) (talk) 13:22, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
• Just in response to some of the comments, just because there is no previous precedent doesn't mean we can't start one. Likewise it's always worth challenging the status quo on how we do things if a better way comes along. I personally think templates in prose can be a good thing where it doesn't disrupt end-user experience, whether that is casual or regular users. Manoof (he/him/his) (talk) 13:22, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
• For consistancy, shouldn't we also do this for Solo and Rogue One? - JMAS ^{Hey, it's me!} 01:26, 19 October 2021 (UTC)
  • We definitely can. We just wanted to start with the Skywalker Saga — YakovChaimTzvi (he/him/his) (talk) 01:45, 19 October 2021 (UTC)
  • I went ahead and implemented

    {{Film|Solo}}

    to render as Solo: A Star Wars Story and

    {{Film|Rogue One}}

    to render as Rogue One: A Star Wars Story. — YakovChaimTzvi (he/him/his) (talk) 01:36, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
    • Perfect. While no special formatting is needed for the anthology films, and it wouldn't have been that much of a character-saver in prose (which doesn't looks like it's going to pass anyuway), I more thought we should keep it consistent with the icons for Appearances and References. So thanks for adding them. I can go ahead and whip up some icons if you need. - JMAS ^{Hey, it's me!} 03:53, 21 October 2021 (UTC)