Forum:CT:Using Template:1st with two simultaneous first appearances

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The result of the debate was create a new template for 1st with simultaneous appearances. Jaymach already tweaked the template to work that way. Graestan^(Talk) 19:32, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

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How should {{1st}} be handled when a subject first appears in two sources simultaneously? The AOTC, ROTS, and TCW film novelizations were each released simultaneously with the corresponding junior novels, and as such some subjects from each have two "first appearances". Examples are Kamino (AOTC), Order 66 (ROTS), and Rex (TCW)—each of those examples being pretty major articles. The current general convention seems to be to tag the adult novel with (First appearance) and ignore the junior novel, but the Layout Guide is silent on the matter, and I could not find any policy or consensus that states how this should be handled. It's also possible there might be other non-movie-related instances of this. Therefore I am bringing this to the CT to decide how this should be handled. Master Jonathan^{Jedi Council Chambers} 02:51, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Option 1

Use {{1st}} on both first appearances without further explanation.

Support:

1. This or continue doing what 4dot says below. Keep it simple to read and simple to use.IthinkIwannaLeia^WaddaUthink? 16:56, 6 May 2009 (UTC)
2. -- AdmirableAckbar ^(Talk) 10:31, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Option 2

Use {{1st}} on both appearances in conjuction with {{C|Simultaneous with [name of other appearance]}} like this: (First appearance) (Simultaneous with [name of other appearance])

Support:

#This one makes the most sense to me. Master Jonathan^{Jedi Council Chambers} 02:51, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

1. SoresuMakashi^{(Everything I tell you is a lie)} 02:54, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
2. There isn't a lot of such cases, so another template isn't needed. Mauser^Comlink 11:58, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Option 3

Create new template that would produce (First appearance simultaneous with [name of other appearance]).

Support:

1. I like templates. -- Darth Culator ^(Talk) 13:55, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
2. Per Culator. - Cavalier One^{(Squadron channel)} 13:59, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
3. Grunny ^(Talk) 14:03, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
4. Pranay Sobusk ~ Talk 16:12, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
5. A new template means you don't have to worry about people not remembering to use the {{C|blahblahblah}} template. - JMAS ^{Hey, it's me!} 16:16, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
6. CC7567 ^(talk) 16:27, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
7. Per Culator. Green Tentacle ^(Talk) 18:27, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
8. Using only one template is simpler. TheAinMAP 18:35, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
9. Spiffy. Toprawa and Ralltiir 19:23, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
10. Don't think the "simultaneous" is really necessary, but if we must... -- AdmirableAckbar ^(Talk) 20:01, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
    • Agreed with Acky. The idea's good, but it's too cumbersome with all that. - Lord Hydronium 22:15, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
11. JMAS has a good point. Also, if you don't like the "simultaneous", then feel free to post other wording suggestions under "Other Ideas" below. Master Jonathan^{Jedi Council Chambers} 00:56, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
12. IFYLOFD ^{(You will pay the price for your lack of vision!)} 01:11, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
13. Graestan^(Talk) 15:03, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
14. —Lucius malfoy7 ^{Talk • Reference} 21:50, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
15. Chack Jadson ^(Talk) 20:12, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
16. I always wondered about this myself. Seems like a good idea to me. Jonjedigrandmaster ^{(Jedi beacon)} 16:37, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
17. Just "First appearance with.." or "along with" is fine I think. -- Riffsyphon1024 06:56, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
18. Sounds like a good solution. ^Jorrel_Fraajic 17:49, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Other Ideas

• Well, what we used to (occasionally) do was to put all the given adaptations that were released simultaneously (or around the same time) on the one line, simply to avoid the rather dogmatic and misguiding use of (First appearance) on the novels, when clearly said elements weren't created for the novels themselves. Although I've abandoned the practice, since no one seems to do it anymore, I always thought it looked better, and was more in the spirit of what the "First appearance" template was meant to be doing. Of course, any adaptations made after the fact wouldn't be placed on the same line, but novels released just a few months before the film, or games released on roughly the same day, would be. Besides, it looks better than listing Star Wars Episode I: The Phantom Menace eight times. Thefourdotelipsis 01:08, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
  • Yeah, I still do that; per your reasons, too. That only works if they're adaptations, though, so there may be a handful of cases where two notices are needed, even with this system. I think one of your FAs was like that. - Lord Hydronium 01:22, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
    • Which doesn't mean it's "precedent" by any means. I know I'm not the only one who doesn't think that's necessarily the best idea, but this is a debate for another page. Toprawa and Ralltiir 03:26, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
  • I've whipped up an alternate idea, seen here, that both allows for this template idea and {{1st}} to be used and avoids the problems mentioned by both 4dot and Top. - Lord Hydronium 20:03, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
    • A possible problem in that case is the novel begins before the movie and should be placed before the movie. TheAinMAP 22:18, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
      • I kinda like that idea Hydronium. —Xwing328^(Talk) 02:15, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
  • Just do what you've been doing...Its never been confusing. If you wanna put "(simultaneous)" after, do it. Keep it simple. It is not confusing now, don't make it so.—Unsigned comment by IthinkIwannaLeia (talk • contribs).

Comments

Kriff—I spelled the title wrong. It should be "simultaneous", not "simulateous". Pretty typical of the way my day has gone today. :P Master Jonathan^{Jedi Council Chambers} 02:59, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Since a lot of movie material has been released simultaneously, can the template be made to show two or more titles? TheAinMAP 22:18, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

• If we go with that, you'll probably be able to type book]], [[movie]], and [[game for example and it would show up fine. —Xwing328^(Talk) 02:17, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
• Maybe I'm misunderstanding how you intend to use this new template, but it's going to look ugly and take much more work. Are you just going to list one of the below and forget the rest as if they're not as important? Or are you going to list all three and really make it look messy and a pain to edit? I feel like this proposal still has a lot of details to iron out. And why wasn't there an option in this vote for no change? —Xwing328^(Talk) 17:16, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
  • Star Wars Episode II: Attack of the Clones novelization (First appearance simultaneous with junior novelization and video game)
  • Star Wars Episode II: Attack of the Clones junior novelization (First appearance simultaneous with novelization and video game)
  • Star Wars Episode II: Attack of the Clones video game (First appearance simultaneous with novelization and junior novelization)