Forum:NB:Finding alternative hosting

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Let's just dispense with the pleasantries, shall we? It comes down to this: We need a "plan B."

Wikia, in their "infinite wisdom" (pauses to let the snickers die down) has just said, "fuck you, people who create our content!" and have decided to dictate how our pages are going to look beyond the sidebars. They're intruding into the main article area with nasty, ugly ads and apparently nobody cares what we think about it.

So before this comes down without warning or consent from us, like EVERY SINGLE THING WIKIA HAS EVER DONE, we need to brainstorm where this wiki is going to find a host that actually gives a damn about us beyond the ad revenue we generate.

Now I understand why WhiteBoy never gave up wookieepedia.com. Good call, Chad.

Anyway, this is just an open forum for brainstorming. I'm leaving it unlocked since Havac is currently in his unable-to-login phase and in case Wikia people want to come in and apologize for having even considered such a boneheaded move. Please discuss. -- Darth Culator ^(Talk) 01:01, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Discussion

• I wouldn't be surprised if making a bunch of alternate strategies that would still fulfill Wikia's apparent needs would help to convince Staff that this isn't necessary. I casually mentioned one such idea on their forum. if anyone else has any, please, feel free to post them in Forum:Wikia's New Style. Also, please let them know how you feel about all this; I certainly decided to. I think it's time we remind Wikia that they claim to be a community-oriented website provider. Graestan^(Talk) 02:44, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

I had the feeling that this was going to happen. It's one reason I kept WikiFur.com, and why I've been registering WikiFur as a service mark. You might want to consider doing that yourself with "Wookieepedia" to substantiate your claim over the use of it to provide a service. If you do, sooner is probably better than later. (Lucasfilm did make a provisional application in the information service trademark class (041) for "Wookiee", but it was abandoned without registration years ago.)

As for hosts, NearlyFreeSpeech.net? They have what seems like reasonable pricing. To my knowledge they don't use the "throw everything on crappy underpowered servers" approach that some of the flashier/flat rate/commission-loving hosts do. --GreenReaper^(talk) 03:05, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

• I just want to briefly voice my opinion of this new format from the eyes of someone who writes some of the content of what comprises Wookieepedia's articles. It's clear the brass behind this bonehead move doesn't understand that this is that bad of an idea. As much as the "Staff" runs Wikipedia, they need to understand that we are Wikipedia, the people who actually work hard to edit, write and create articles. We, the people who create and maintain this wiki, reject this idea, and yet our voices are falling on deaf ears. Don't stick a spoonful of garbage down our throats without our consent. Instead, we're being told that it's too bad, that those who might leave after pouring countless hours of work into the wiki will just be collateral damage, because there will always be more people to rape. Way to take care of your own. And that's not even beginning to touch upon how this will negatively impact the actual content of the article, which we write.

This is part of the reasoning a certain Staff member claims for making this move: "Overall, we feel that the changes will improve the health and growth of the entire Wikia community by converting more viewers into contributors to make our communities more vibrant." What you really mean to say is that the first thing we want people looking at when they open up a wiki article is an advertisement, so that we can make more money. Trust me, Staff, this is coming from an avid wikian, when someone opens up a page to read an article, the first thing they want to see is not an advertisement for Hannah Montana. They want to see the content of the page they opened up to read. You're shooting yourselves in the foot with this one. I guess all I can say is that I hope Monobook survives this foolishness. Toprawa and Ralltiir 03:51, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Regarding monobook. GHe (Talk) 03:53, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

• • • • Welp... that will effectively seal my fate. The Monaco skin freezes and crashes my browser on a regular basis, making editing and anything else almost impossible. I really like it here, too, I don't wanna be forced out by browser errors... Trak Nar ^{Ramble on} 04:11, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

I feel like copy/pasting what I posted just as a voice of the average user schmoe, borrowing a line from Toprawa: Ads? In the middle of articles?! Big, ugly banner ads that serve nothing than to be a nasty pus-filled stye on what was a pristine article?!! And for whatever reason, some coorporate fatcat thinks this is a good idea?!!? Coming from the average user/forumgoer, I can tell you one thing's for certain and that is the average user does NOT give a Rodian's antennae about ads. They don't click on 'em. Ads are an eyesore, plain and simple. Putting the ads within the page contents will only serve to drive away viewers and contributors who hate having their hard work dissected with some glaring obnoxious ad for something that's totally unrelated to the content of the article. That's like slapping a kitschy bumper sticker across an Alex Ross original. That's something you just don't do. This "new style" will only serve to aggrivate and alienate and effectively destroy the integrity of the community. In short, bisecting articles with ads has gotta be the most ridiculously idiotic marketing descision I have ever heard, ever. Why don't they just shoot themselves in the foot, it'd acheive the same effect.

I could've added more, but I felt I should stop there lest I got nasty. I might be pushing it with calling Wikia staff "coorporate fatcats." As for alternative hosting... I'm dependent on Geocities, so I have no ideas. [Redacted by administration] Trak Nar ^{Ramble on} 04:13, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

• Damnit...per everyone above. I'm going to have to relish these next four days. -- Joe Butler (Obi Maul12) ^(Chow) 04:19, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

You're darn right that it was the right call to keep your domain name- as an admin of the Creatures Wiki I can tell you what might of happened had you not grabbed it. Check out the WHOIS for creatureswiki.com, which for obvious reasons we were looking into acquiring:

Domain Name: CREATURESWIKI.COM
Created on: 17-May-07
Expires on: 17-May-09
Last Updated on:
Administrative Contact:
Davis, Michael domains@wikia.com
Wikia, Inc.

Yes, sports fans, they bought the primary domain name we would want without telling us and are holding it. What possible innocuous motive could they have for this? Adding insult to injury, they don't even forward it to our wiki. Nice, huh? ElasticMuffin 05:28, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Sithspit, this whole deal smells worse than an overcrowded ronto stable. Kriffing hell, Wikia, what gives? You get bought out by some soul-less multinational corporation whose main products are breakfast cereal and toilet paper?--Goodwood ^{(Alliance Intelligence)} 06:59, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

• [Redacted by administration] Trak Nar ^{Ramble on} 07:11, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
  • I'd really appreciate if nothing aside from constructive arguments and helpful suggestions were left on this page—while I am sure everyone is very apt to dump on Wikia for this, I see the issue as something unfortunate and not malicious. If we can find a way to help the Staff to understand what this does to our functionality, we may achieve our goals. But colorful metaphor and downright slander won't help; rather, it will make it all the easier for them to write us off as a bunch of trolls. Graestan^(Talk) 12:43, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for that Graestan :) Not that we would consider this trolling... we absolutely understand that people are angry and worried, and we are listening. So, I'm not sure if you want to discuss the changes here, of if you would feel that's rail-roading a discussion on alternatives, but maybe I can answer a couple of points and then let you point me to the right place?

Starting from the last part... please note the date on that domain purchase - over a year ago. One of the wikia guys regularly goes though lists of search-terms that lead to Wikia wikis, and typos that people commonly make when trying to get here. Then he buys any domain names that he thinks would be particularly harmful if they were bought by cybersquatters. There is nothing underhand, or even very interesting in this. It's just part of routine, sensible, site management. Although, I admit I'm quite pleased that we missed doing this for Wookieepedia.org ;)

On the more general discussion about the changes, I've just talked to some of you on IRC, so forgive me for repeating some of that here. What this is all about is finding a way to show the sort of adverts that advertisers want to buy from us, while keeping the annoyance to users to a minimum.

We did a lot of research into what advertisers will buy, and put a lot of thought in to how to minimise the effect ... including excluding as many types of pages as possible from showing any ads, adjusting the set up to make our regular users see less ads, and making changes that allow flexibility (for example, if there is a table that would break with the box ad, then it automatically shows a banner ad instead).

I would be surprised if everything stays the same as you see in the mockups, it's going to need tweaking as we talk to people and see what works on the live sites. But we do need advertising space, and in a form we can sell.

So I ask you to look at the changes, especially as things start to go live next week, and talk to us about what you see and how we can make it work. I will be clear here, and say "no ads" or "go back to how Monobook was" or even "go back to Quartz" isn't going to be possible. But I also trust that we can find a path that will make Wikia a long-term success. -- sannse (talk) 15:51, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm afraid "isn't going to be possible" doesn't cut it. We as communities require a certain level of service from our hosting provider. Either Wikia is willing to provide it - for free or at a reasonable cost - or it is not. We are not willing to be hosted under the conditions currently proposed; not for free, not even if Wikia started paying us.

As for the domain names, the test for that is whether or not Wikia is willing to transfer them to the rightful service mark owners - the wiki administrators. We would be glad to reimburse Wikia for the reasonable expenses incurred in acquiring them . . . without telling us. --GreenReaper^(talk) 21:37, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

...but it seems like that's not gonna happen, is it? --GreenReaper^(talk) 03:13, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Alright. I've waited this long to comment, just so I could learn something about it, and try and figure out if there's an easy, non-confrontational way that makes both parties happy. As it stands in its current state, that's not looking like it's going to happen. One of the notable problems I've noticed throughout the course of this discussion is that the implementation of such a drastic move in such a short amount of time, without any explanation beyond "we need money", tends to grate on peoples' nerve - plus, there's been no evidence that Wikia staff is willing to do anything. I understand sannse's and Greyman's statements on trying to find a solution - I just haven't seen that attitude mirrored in any staff who's not involved with Wookieepedia. Maybe I'm not looking hard enough. *shrug*

Anyway, solutions on keeping ads visible, but not in-content. I'm not sure the plausibility of a framing effect on the top bar - like a floating toolbar that follows the screen - but Monaco's current banner just screams it. Not only would that keep the ads out of content, but it would actually keep them visible. It'll never leave the visibility of the viewer, and would actually be very helpful to the editors. Especially, especially, if someone could do some coding magic and include certain links (maybe another custom toolbar?), and the article edit bar. But I'm really getting ahead of myself; I'd just like to know if it's possible, and if someone's willing. If it wasn't all that clear, I could draw up a screenie. Thoughts? ^Jorrel_Fraajic 16:28, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

I agree that it was a bad move on Wikia's part to implement such a change so quickly. -- Joe Butler (Obi Maul12) ^(Chow) 16:33, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

That's an interesting idea Jorrel, and certainly one I will pass on. Please belive me that all the staff are listening, although only a few of us are actively replying (so we don't get in each other's way). You comments are being read, and talked about, by many more than just Danny and I. And I urge you to read Danny's comments on the Central forum page. He's trying there to explain more of the reasons for this there, and explain why changes are necessary. Thanks again Jorrel -- sannse (talk) 17:08, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

• My two cents, for whatever they're worth: putting ads in the content is despicable, cheapens the content of the wiki, and will reverse the number of readers/editors quite a bit. Sure, like Greyman said, I can use adblock and pretend they don't exist, but that's not fair on the users (who put hours and hours into the wiki) who haven't got it, and the readers which the wiki is created for. Almost any other combination of ads (and there have been several here and elsewhere) would work better than this, and if it does stay as is, I sincerely hope we do move somewhere else. But, for me, that's only part of the issue: the real issue is that I've lost any trust I had in Wikia. Instead of conferring with even the admins or bureacrats, they've introduced a new system which is universally hated (by everyone not on Wikia's payroll), phrasing it to us (on w:Wikia's New Style at least) like they're giving us a present or something. Even if Wikia does back out and give us ad-free monobook, I still think a move -- assuming there's somewhere to move to -- is the best option, because I no longer see Wikia as something here to help us, but something here to make money at our expense. -- AdmirableAckbar ^(Talk) 15:10, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Acky, all I said about Adblock was that it was a work around for the users who chose to use it. I was saying it is an option for those users who so chose to use it. I thought that was pretty clear? I was in no way, shape, or form saying (or implying) that I don't care about the average experience for the users who don't use Adblock. You and I have worked closely for almost a year now on this site, and I would really like to hope that you know me better than that. I was simply offering up Adblock to those users who wanted to know a work around. You seem to forget that I've worked on that content you speak of, and (like you and others) put hundreds of my hours into this site to build its content. This is the one thing that I hate about Forums (SH, CT, etc) is that a persons words/posts are always left up to interpretation and distortion. Sorry, Acky, but I know full well that users without Adblock may not enjoy the ads. Like I said in my original post, my suggestion of Adblock was for those interested in a workaround; so, let me post it here again: "Again, I do not want ads in the main article space either, but with this post I'm simply offering up a workaround for anyone interested." (this post can be found below, in this forum) Greyman^(Talk) 15:38, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

I took the night to think about this and here are my thoughts: This is really not that big a deal, so what if we get a new skin and more ads;it's inconvinient but not much more than that. It would be nice if we could get this changed, but it seems that it's not going to happen. Also, it seems that in the past, when these kind of changes have occured, we've been notified much sooner. That, again, would have been nice, but appearantly wasn't possible. This is in no way serious enough to require that Wookieepedia away from Wikia. In fact, since they host us, we do kind of owe them. I, personally, am glad that the topic of the thread has moved from leaving Wikia to how we can get this changed. That is the only was we can possibly compromise on this issue, by civily talking it out DarthDragon164^{Dragon's Lair} 13:25, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Timing

From the continuing attempts at doublespeak without actually addressing the problem, it's becoming more and more apparent that moving is a better option. All we want is to have ads outside the content space, and that's obviously exactly what Wikia is not going to give us. And I think that ideally, we should have this settled before August 15, so the impending traffic surge from The Clone Wars directs their effort where it belongs, which is on whatever host doesn't randomly spamify our articles. So let's step it up, admin-types! -- Darth Culator ^(Talk) 20:30, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

• If done, this is obviously going to be something that needs community/administrator consensus. It also needs to be done fast. Maybe step up the next Mofference and make it an emergency one? Yrfeloran 21:14, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
• While I doubt this particular offer is a viable option, offers for free hosting elsewhere have been made, fwiw. -- AdmirableAckbar ^(Talk) 21:16, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

"doublespeak"... I'm not sure how to respond to that when we have tried to be very clear about what's happening and why. Please read Danny's reply to some of the initial responses to this at Wikia:Forum:Wikia's New Style#A response, I think he says everything I would there. This has been one of "my" wikis for quite a while now, in that it's one I check regularly to see if any help is needed, hang out in the IRC channel to be available, and generally consider it my job to look after you all. So, change is needed, change is happening, but I am very much here to talk about it, listen, and try to find way to make it less painful for us all -- sannse (talk)

• Sannse and I have been discussing some of this stuff in detail, since I firmly believe that a move away from Wikia is not the best direction for Wookieepedia right now. Sannse, and other Staff members, are always open to suggestions, thoughts, ideas, etc. on ways to improve what is going to happen. I may not have approached them the best way in the past with regards to this, and may not have tried to understand both sides of the ordeal, so I apologize for that. My goal with this entire thing is to do what is best for Wookieepedia in our current situation. That being said, right now it is hard for most users to look at the changes which will come, since the release hasn't...well...been released yet. What I suggest is that everyone take a step back, look at what has been provided in ways of information by Wikia on the new releases, and come up with suggestions or thoughts on how to improve the situation, if at all. This will be easier once the new Monaco design is released within the coming days, but I don't want to see the community get up in arms any more than it already is, and to continually put their/our foots in their/our mouths. We need to go about this properly, and not personally attack the staff, etc. They are more than willing to listen to anyone, as long as it's done in a mature and civil manner. Now, for anyone who has spoken with me, I don't believe that this new design is needed; however, today when I approached her, Sannse was been willing to listen to my concerns, and like I said, her and I have been able to speak about this stuff and discuss what was on my mind. Just remember that the Staff are human too; just like you don't enjoy it when a troll yells/swears/personally attacks you, they don't view personal attacks, yelling, or swearing at them to be necessary to communicate with them. So, please remember that suggestions/comments/ideas are always welcomed, in fact craved by a lot of staff, but please do so in a civil manner. Past that suggestion, I don't think there is much more I can say at this time. Thanks, Greyman^(Talk) 21:43, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
• What's to discuss? Give us a proper rectangle-shaped content area without ads inside it. That's the universal concern here, and they're still saying that's not what we're getting. -- Darth Culator ^(Talk) 21:50, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Like I said right above here, suggestions, layout ideas, etc. are welcomed. I've already sat down and spoke with Sannse about what they are looking for, and I offered up some ideas for it which not effect the article content as much, or at all. I put a little bit of work behind my concerns with them, rather than just saying what I think would work. I got their reasons why (which Danny and others have already stated) and then I worked around that. Anyways, if you have ideas of how to make your suggestions work, then I believe that Sannse would be willing to see them and pass them along. Again, if you're going to understand exactly what needs to be done, and within what boundaries, just approach Sannse via PM or other means in IRC, talk pages, etc. and she'll be able to explain them to you. Forums are ok (ugh, not really) but speaking one on one with another person is always better, or so I've learned.Greyman^(Talk) 22:01, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
    • A readily-available "Donate" option would be preferrable to intrusive ugly ads. This is coming from expirience on another site. We had ads inserted into the forum content which really pissed people off. So, I suggested a "Donate" option, and the option was added. People actually did donate. They donated 'cause the perks was the removal of ads. Hell, I'll shell out a subscription if the perk is no ads. But since suggestions it seems are just falling on deaf ears, then it's looking like we might as well strap in and tolerate the turbulence as it's gonna be wicked. The captain has just turned on the Fasten Seatbelts sign. Please put your trays and seats in an upright position. If they absolutle have to put more ads in... Then, lemme screenshot a random article and start cutting it apart in Photoshop to see if I can come up with some sorta tolerable layout... Trak Nar ^{Ramble on} 03:11, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
      • Here you go, Trak Nar. This article is in the new layout, as well as the entire wiki it is on. Likewise, the Community Test wiki is set up in the new design as well, so surf those articles if you'd like too. I'm all for keeping Monaco the same, and not changing something that I feel works; but if that's not an option, then I'd rather at least try and offer up suggestions for helping with the change, rather than what's been happening here and elsewhere. Thanks, Trak, for offering to attempt to find some new ideas as well. Like I said, contact sannse via her talk page, or email, or even contact me via the means available to you, and we'll post your ideas here (if you haven't), as well as pass it along the chain. Greyman^(Talk) 13:10, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
      • A little side note here as well, for those users who haven't heard about it yet. Using Firefox, and various add-ons like Adblock Plus, NoScript, will block the new adds, or even stop them from loading in the first place, and once they are blocked, the content will move up automatically to fill in the space left by the ads. I'm not saying that I would prefer this method over what the current skins offer us, but I'm just letting those who are curious know that this will work. Myself and others have tried this out on the two wikis that I linked to in my above post, and it works. Ideally I would like things to stay the way they are just like a lot of others, but for users with FF, Adblock, etc. you'll be able to transition better. Again, I do not want ads in the main article space either, but with this post I'm simply offering up a workaround for anyone interested. Greyman^(Talk) 13:34, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
    • I've said it already in a pan-Wikia e-mail. Banner ads at the top. Sidebar ads. Banner and sidebar ads. Exclusive use of the banner replacement type instead of the in-content type. I don't give a damn. Just get it out of the goddamn content. Is Wikia really that strapped for brainpower that they can't come up with any idea themselves other than a chunky ad inside the content? Not after "months" of oh-so-grueling discussions no one in the community was invited to? They don't have a number two option they can deploy and say, "Well, what about this? This was our second choice, and if you the people who actually create our content loathe number one so much, maybe we can go with this. What do you think about it?" Instead, we get "The sales department has a stranglehold over your wiki, every other wiki, and every decision made on Wikia. They want the in-content ad, and nothing short of it will do. So make up some ideas despite the fact that we considered them all already in our focus group but we're going to lie and pretend like this is the only option in the world so we can better shove it down your throat, and we'll dismiss it out of hand and we'll do exactly what the sales department wants, and fuck anyone who says otherwise. Fuck them right in the ear. They're not advertisers. They don't give us money directly, they just make all the stuff that causes people to give us money, so we're too shortsighted to give a shit about them. Better get used to it." Havac 04:24, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

It's gonna happen. No one will notice in a few weeks. Okay, you don't feel you have a choice, but there are more important things happening in the world. How about fighting this hard to lower property tax in your area. Maybe school funding, healthcare, social security. All those things will really have negative effects on your precious Wookiepedia. So, roll with the punches and focus on something meaningful. With the determination I've read here, you all could change somethings for the better in the real world. Unless you're all talking shit.206.53.238.241 08:55, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

• Why are you haranguing people here instead of doing something meaningful? With all the effort you spent on that post, you could be doing something worthwhile. Stop focusing on unimportant things like what Wookieepedians are saying and do something good with your life! - Lord Hydronium 09:02, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
• I'm so tempted to ban that anon for trolling if he hasn't already been banned. On a topic of more relevance, I don't think I can adequately express how royally ticked off I am at this latest move by Wikia. Of all the places to put the ad . . . in the content area?! Because that makes sense. Not that I really want more ads, but if they're allegedly essential to Wikia's survival, put them somewhere less obtrusive, yaknowhatImean? Look at, for example, Daric LaRone, a Featured Article I wrote. By far certainly not the longest page on the site, at a wimpy 12 KB. (Corran Horn is what, 350 KB?) If you want more adspace, just implement more sidebar ads. Not bigger sidebar ads. More sidebar ads. Just looking at my paltry example, there's easily enough space to place a sidebar ad similar to ones we see in Monobook under "Related Communities" and not have the "OMG, peple wont scroll down all teh way" reaction. If someone presses "page down" even once, they get the ad. For our longer (and as I'm sure the statistics gurus will tell you, more popular) articles, you could fit two or three of the aforementioned sidebar ads. Personally, I hate ads, so I don't propose ways to make more of them lightly. There's a reason why I use Monobook+Firefox and Adblock. Furthermore, I hate Monaco, so actually taking the time to do some testing in that skin wasn't taken lightly either. I think that's a more viable solution than putting them in the middle of the article, which strikes me as a marketing ploy at the expense of the users. Actually, almost anything would be. We've already tried changing the sitename . . . without community approval. We've already had Monaco forced upon us. We've already had to put up with stupid blinking Zwinky ads that wave at you. (I detested those and they finally got rid of them after we complained a bunch). I don't think this is a particularly good time to ask us to roll over and play dead, or just "accept the inevitable." This tension has been building for some time with each little "tweak" that isn't favoured by the community and it's getting close to that boiling point. I know "Danny" on Wikia has said something about "nobody clicks on the ads, that's why we need to have more ads/impression ads." Bollocks. You honestly expect me to click on an ad promising me a free computer for being the 1,000,000th visitor or some other such ilk? How internet-savvy are we supposed to be? If people-clicking is the problem, change the ad hosting to impression ads; don't blame the users for not clicking on some of the lamest ads on the Internet. That said, I heartily disapprove of this latest notion from Wikia's brain trust and hope staff will reconsider or make major modifications to their proposal. Atarumaster88 ^{(Talk page)} 13:54, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Ataru: I know that this change is making people really frustrated and upset. This wiki has been building a great community and a great site for years, so it feels like there's no reason to change.

I can clarify about the click-through question. You're absolutely right about the quality of the click-through ads. Unfortunately, quality advertisers have moved away from click-through ads for exactly the reason that you say -- nobody clicks. In order to survive, Wikia has to move away from click-through ads, and use impression ads.

Advertisers can choose to advertise on a thousand sites. Wikia as a whole is very big, but an individual wiki isn't -- Muppet Wiki is never going to be able to compete with IMDB or IGN. So the advertisers make demands if they're going to advertise with us -- and the main demand is that they want a 300x250 ad at the top right of the screen, in the content area. We have to adapt the site to fit that model, in order to attract the advertisers that will pay for the site to exist.

It's always been important to Wikia that the wikis are accessible for anyone to participate. We don't make people pay in order to read the site, or contribute -- that would destroy the whole concept of a wiki. But somebody has to provide revenue, if Wikia is going to survive. You don't like ads, and I don't like ads. It sucks that we have to have them at all. But ads are the site's only source of income. They may be evil, but they're a necessary evil. -- Danny (talk) 14:20, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, I forgot to mention Communitytest.wikia -- I don't think that's been mentioned here yet. That's the test site where people can see what the new ad format looks like. There are a couple of bugs with the test site at the moment that need to be fixed -- one is that short pages shouldn't see any ads. That works properly on Communitytest if you're logged out, but it doesn't work if you're logged in yet.

There are also some other changes to the plan that are happening, based on the feedback we've been getting. We'll be talking today about more changes that we can make. Meanwhile, I'd encourage people to go check out Communitytest, so you can see for yourself what it looks like. -- Danny (talk) 14:45, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

I must confess that it would be a bit easier to understand Wikia's motives and intentions if they weren't all given in salesmanspeak instead of normal English.--Goodwood ^{(Alliance Intelligence)} 14:51, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I'm trying to be as clear as I can. Can you tell me what parts were in salesmanspeak, so I can try it again in normal? -- Danny (talk) 14:57, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

• Fegh, sorry to overload you, Danny, but I just committed the unspeakable act of temporarily setting my skin to Monaco to view that community test wiki and I had some questions and comments.

1. I could actually live with the center/top ads. It's the aesthetic equivalent of having a neon-green vinyl-covered sofa with torn upholstery and beer stains in a living room decorated in mute tones of blue, but livable.
2. The top-right sidebox, though. That's uh, abhorrent. It'd be interesting for Wikia to conduct some tests on articles with infoboxes (I didn't see any) and see how, well, awful it would look. I agree that the top-right is important, but having an ad replace the main image and/or infobox spot makes me want to strangle some small furry animal.
3. The Main Page is uh, squished. Is this the end look for a main page? I have a pretty decent monitor running 1024 x 768 and I'm getting four inches of blank space on either side. Please tell me that's not intentional, because that's horribly undesirable.
4. Does this mean the custom header banners (i.e. Wookieepedia's "Battle of Hoth" scene) are going away?
5. Once again, I'd like to hear another staff member say "Monobook is not going away and will not be ad-raped."
6. Thank you for your time and consideration on this issue. Atarumaster88 ^{(Talk page)} 15:07, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

No problem, that's what I'm here for. Thanks for trying it out.

1. Fair enough. We'll see if we can at least clear up the beer stains.

2. I've used some pictures and infoboxes on pages... Yeah, it's not ideal. You can use Communitytest to try out how it would look. I tried to copy Luke Skywalker over last night, but there was something about the Jedi infobox that I couldn't get to work -- I think there's a hidden template or something in the css that handles the width of the box, and I couldn't figure it out, so I deleted it. But feel free to copy templates and infoboxes to Communitytest, and try it out.

3. The Main Page is squished. That's one of the things we'll be talking about today when we look at things to change. I don't want to make promises that turn out not to be true, but I'm pretty sure I'll have some good news about that later on this morning.

4. What happens with the custom header is up to you guys. There's a way to change the css to push down the whole window, and keep it at the height that Monaco is at now. That way, you could still have the Hoth scene at the top. But part of the concern is that the ads are pushing content further down on the page, especially the 300x250 pushing down the infobox, so moving everything down to reveal the header will make that even more of an issue. It's up to you guys to decide whether it's worth it to have the header and make people scroll down more.

5. Monobook is not going away as a personal choice. It will be going away as a default choice for a whole wiki. The current plan is that Monobook will have the same internal ads as Monaco does -- the banner at the top or whatever. As far as I know, there aren't any changes to the Monobook skin, so the sidebar ad will be there too. That means that someone who uses Monobook might see a banner ad at the top and a skyscraper ad in the right sidebar. Whether that qualifies as rape depends on your definition of rape. That being said -- this is one of the things we'll be talking about this morning, and that might change too. We're looking for ways to make this easier on people. That might be one of them. Stay tuned.

6. Yeah, thank you too. I'm glad you guys are on this stuff so fiercely. You guys have come out and talked about this much more than any other wiki. That says a lot about this community. The work that you've put in this whole weekend to examine, criticize and poke holes is going to end up helping everybody. -- Danny (talk) 15:17, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

• Danny, if you're that glad to have our input, why were none of the Wikia communities notified via the Sitenotices that have been used in the past to discuss even simpler updates? Why weren't we ever notified of this development during the "months" of planning? If our input is so helpful, shouldn't it have been sought and incorporated, oh, I don't know, maybe more than a few days before these features are released? From what I understand of the central Wikia page, implementation starts tomorrow, 10 June. Your willingness to discuss this with the community now is admirable but it doesn't detract that this was very suddenly and rudely popped upon us by you and the other Wikia staff. Atarumaster88 ^{(Talk page)} 17:09, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
• Not to mention we wouldn't have even gotten what little notice we had if not for the sharp eyes of some Wikia volunteers in IRC. -- Darth Culator ^(Talk) 17:23, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, you're absolutely right. This came down very fast, for you and for us. This didn't end up rolling out the way that I'd hoped it would. Some things got pushed up, some things got pushed back -- and the schedules ended up colliding. I'm sorry. We're working on fixing this now.

So, I have some good news: I was totally wrong about Monobook. When the new format launches, the right sidebar will be taken off of Monobook. So Monobook will have the exact same ads that Monaco does -- one ad for logged-in users inside the article area. No long skinny ad in the right sidebar, cause there won't be a right sidebar anymore. So no ad-raping. Monaco and Monobook will have the exact same ads.

Also: The main page will not have a fixed width. It'll be the same as the other pages. I'm not sure when that will appear on Communitytest, but it'll be done by the time this launches.

More news: I'm talking to folks about getting us some more time to look at this. You're right -- it's way too fast. I can't say right now, but I'm pretty sure we'll have some more time before things change. I'll let you know when I know more, and I'll go to the IRC if anybody wants to ask more questions.

Again: I'm really sorry about the way this has played out. There are a lot of different kinds of people involved -- the financial folks, the designers and engineers, and the community folks -- all trying to come up with the right answers, but sometimes pulling in different directions. You don't see a lot of the stuff that's going on behind the scenes. That's not always a bad thing. I am seeing what's behind the scenes, and sometimes I wish I wasn't. -- Danny (talk) 20:31, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Sorry to butt in again on a forum that's not mine, but... isn't the whole concept of putting ads inside the article exactly what has been fought against this whole time? So... modifying Monobook in this way classifies as a very, very bad thing, am I right? ElasticMuffin 01:38, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

• It just gives one the impression that this was an attempt to blitzkrieg these changes through and hope nobody could organize any objections. -- Darth Culator ^(Talk) 20:55, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Someone on the central wikia posted this suggestion. Would people be willing to accept this instead? —Silly Dan _(talk) 23:38, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

• I had trouble with the above link actually rendering the image. This link works for me, so hopefully it works for others that experience a problem as well. Greyman^(Talk) 23:45, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
• It's not perfect, but still much better than where the infobox is. Drewton ^{(Drewton's Holocron)} 01:27, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
• Though still ugly, a huge improvement. They could even make the ad space wider if they had to. To run with the obnoxious sofa example, I care a lot less about how big and ugly it is when you keep it on the front porch instead of rearranging my living room to find a place for it. jSarek 01:29, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Wow, I thought it was pretty clear that i was being positive about all the emotions and strong will being displayed, but apparently I was "trolling". Ban me I dont care. I use a public IP, so that will just piss off anyone else that uses it. oh well. anyway, my point was , the change is gonna happen. so, stop focusing on the negative, and find a positive spin on it. How can you modifiy this change so you and Wikia are both reletively happy. and as for the "do something with my life" I work with juveniles. I was merely applauding the strong will and effort displayed here and expressing the fact there are other important issues that need attention like this. so, there. —Unsigned comment by 206.53.238.241 (talk • contribs).

• Right, look at the title name and think about what you should be writing here. I'm quite happy with the links that Silly Dan and Greyman put in, don't like them but they are alot better then the other ones, and as JSarek said they could probaly fit a whole diffrent ad on there (through that would make it look even worse, and I'm not sure if they could, thats just an estimate). - Kingpin13^{Cantina Battle Ground} 07:34, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm going to try and set up a demo page that looks like that... I really can't see that pushing the start of the content that far down is better for readers than the box ad. Maybe I can get help to change a test page to that format, I don't think a screenshot shows how it would actually look (which is why we set up CommunityTest, so you could see the ads "in the flesh") -- sannse (talk) 12:59, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

• I'm pretty sure it'll help, this way all the contents will be in line rather then having the infobox really low, it'll give us more room for images etc. and stop more text being sqished (is anybody else getting massive lags trying to edit this? I think it's getting a bit big). - Kingpin13^{Cantina Battle Ground} 16:29, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Boycott

If you wish to Boycott Wikia's New Style then go to [1] :)-- Arav (talk) 10:41, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

• And what, precisely, will boycotting it do? Wikia have said that their sponsors are demanding the ads be changed or else they will no longer give Wikia any money. If Wikia doesn't get money, then every Wikia-hosted wiki dies. So boycotting the change completely will...kill this wiki. Nice move. —Jaymach Ral'Tir (talk) 10:56, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Alternative ad placement in New Monaco

I hope you won't mind this post in your community. You clearly have much more wiki experience than me and your community is well established while mine is just gaining momentum. So I value your collective experience and opinions.

• Thanks for that thought about a boycott - you are right it would not be beneficial to the future of any wiki site.

Please take a read of several creative alternatives which all advocate the use of the left-hand navigation bar. The accompanying image is here and an explanation of the highlighted boxes is given in this response at the central forum.

I'd appreciate learning your opinion of this alternative ad placement.

Najevi 02:42, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Ok. I've just gotten a hand on all of the stuff on Wookieepedia and now I'm delving into all of this inter-wiki stuff. Now I've got some question:

1. AFter the new skin is in place, will the ccurrent default skin still be avaiable?

2. I can understand the addes, but is the new required default skin really nessecary?

3. How likely is it that we can get this plan changed so that the adds aren't in the content area,because from my understanding, he sponsors are demanding that the adds be in the content area.

4. ON that note, could we compromise with the sponsors or get new ones?

By the way, sorry about all the typos it is really lagging and I'm to lazy to fix them. DarthDragon164^{Dragon's Lair} 04:02, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Given up?

Nothing happening about this, then, now the change has happened? - SanityOrMadness 19:09, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

I think what Wikia has to understand that most of us reasonable Wikians would not object to ads per se, rather the objection is that they have been brought on without prior warning or even some degree of negotiation and put in a very ugly spot right on top of the infobox. Then we're told to live with it. Is this the Empire or what?
I am reasonable, I realise that Wikia has to pay for itself and has to have ads in some way, shape or form. What makes me want to go and tear up a gundark nest is WHERE they are. I mean, why in seven Corellians hells did they have to put them THERE?
But the lack of response these last few days has me worried if us Wookieepedians have decided to do somehting. Has discussion moved to the Lit board in the JC? A lot of Wookiee action goes on there (and that's how I found out about the Wook, as did a lot of us). My question for everyone is: what is being done? Are we moving? If so, sooner than better (before August 15 anyway).
IIRC the Wook is one of the biggest Wikias, and they'd be mad to lose us if we were serious about moving somewhere else. Katana Geldar 22:49, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

• Actually, they'd just make another Star Wars wiki, which would be vastly inferior even though they use all the Google tricks they can think of to lure in new users. But they'd never admit it was a mistake. Graestan^(Talk) 23:07, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
• Get adblock, for heavens sake. SanityOrMadness, you have no actual content edits on Wookieepedia. Your only edits are two forum posts, so what does it matter to you if we're still on Wikia or not? (I have my own thoughts on who you are, and actually think that you're a sockpuppet of another user, but I'll keep those thoughts to myself) To Katana, SanityOrMadness, and any other user, big or small: Stop whining, stop complaining, stop being immature, just stop. I'm fed up with all the crying that has happened over this, that, and the other thing which is essentially small beans in the Ultimate Game of Life. If you want to voice your opinion about what Wikia has done, go see the forum on Central Wikia and continue your rants there. I know through lots of talks with other users (both admins and not) that I'm not alone in thinking that moving away from Wikia would be a big mistake for the continued improvement of Wookieepedia, for a number of reasons which are painfully obvious to anyone who has ever bothered to look at the other wiki-hosts on the net. If a vote to move away from Wikia takes place here, it will be because the administration has discussed it and the majority have decided that it would be in Wookieepedia's best interest to move to another host. I'm not sure that's going to happen, to be completely honest, from my talks with other administrators, but I'm sure that if it happens, then the users of Wookieepedia will be made aware of the vote. So, for those who just have to keep it up and keep focusing on what they perceive as the end of world, see Help:Skin if you don't want to use the New Monaco. Also, like I said, if you really just want to keep complaining in all the wrong spots, just stop and get Mozilla Firefox and Adblock and you'll see that everything is just magically...better :| Yes, that doesn't fix the problem 100% for everyone, but it fixes the problem for those who actually shut up and chose to do something to help themselves. For those anon/IP editors who are seeing a lot more ads, suck it up or get an account on Wikia and watch the number of ads drastically drop. If you want to sit there and say "No, I don't want to get an account, but I'll still complain" then do what I said above and get the Firefox and the applicable add-ons. The vast vast majority of users who I interact with daily, both on and off Wookieepedia, are either a) learning to deal with the new changes, therefore doing something to help themselves, and getting on with their work on Wookieepedia/Wikia, or b) already use Firefox and Adblock since Wikia is no where near the only website(s) on the Internet, and therefore haven't even noticed that much of a change to their Wiki-time. Greyman^(Talk) 23:34, 18 June 2008 (UTC)