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Forums > Senate Hall > SH:Regarding the status of the Encounters duology
"Supernatural Encounters remains a dense work and not light reading. It features lengthy pages of discussion and debate on metaphysical subjects, numerous references to esoteric races and obscure storylines, and other subject matter that is generally challenging, e.g., time-dilations in pocket universes, realm distinction, time-travel, ontology, cosmogony, theology, all of which I felt was needed to put together a potentially cogent origin for life in the Star Wars galaxy that harmonizes with all of the many stories that have come out since 1978, including those which were later tied into the universe (e.g., E.T.), whether as in-joke or not."
―Joe Bongiorno[src]

On Sunday, the creation of the World Between Worlds/Legends sparked a lively reaction on Discord, centered around the status of content originating from the "Encounters duology" (ED): Cult Encounters of the Star Wars Universe (CE, co-author Rich Handley), and Supernatural Encounters: The Trial and Transformation of Arhul Hextrophon (SE). In the few years I've been an editor here, it's not the first time I've seen this subject brought to attention, may it be on IRC or Discord, and under the former "administration", there was some kind of informal consensus that allowed it. However, this new page and the ensuing Discord exchange, and the lack of previous SH (only found a mention of it in an Inquisitorius meeting from 2020), is proof that we need a fully informed and open conversation, and something we can refer to in the future.

Before jumping head straight into the mud, as the problem here is probably not that clear for a lot of editors: The ED is content that was, while commissioned in the early 2000s, never published through official channels, but according to Joe Bongiorno (JB), the author, it IS authorized, approved, licensed, not cancelled, and canon within the Legends continuity. However, SE (called by some on JCF as the "Star Wars Silmarillion"... so keep it mind its a work of cosmogonic ambition unrivaled by anything published by Lucasfilm in that regard) has been undergoing an editorial process for more than 10 years, including the addition of concepts exclusive to modern (post 2014) Canon.

I spent a lot of time in the last three days to find and try to synthesize everything there is to know about the ED, including reading a 90+ pages thread on JCF, and four years of Facebook updates from the author. A great deal of the information you're going to read next comes from JB own website, starwarstimeline.net, in particular those two pages (archived on 2011-11-07):


NOTE: All quoted text is attributable to JB.--NanoLuukeCloning facility 12:21, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

What we know[]

We have first to go back to 2000, with the release of Star Wars Gamer 1, including JB's article The University of Sanbra Guide to Intelligent Life: The Marvel Series (with co-author Rich Handley). Following this first article, JB started working on two others ("spiritual sequels"): Cult Encounters of the Star Wars Universe, and Supernatural Encounters in the Star Wars Universe, both greenlighted by Lucasfilm. Those were never published in Star Wars Gamer, as it was discontinued in 2002. At the time, CE was "far enough along", unlike SE.[1]

With the creation of the Hyperspace (2004), there was a new opportunity to publish CE and SE[2], as JB contacted Pablo Hidalgo, at the time Internet Content Manager,[1] around 2004-5. CE was submitted to Lucasfilm before the end of 2007,[3] and SE was turned into a 600 pages novella, with its first complete script written in two days in November 2007, and it was nearly complete by 2008,[1] after several early versions were submitted to Lucasfilm.[3]The last version from that time was apparently a 2009 version with Sith-related content removed.[4] However, neither of them was published by the time the Hyperspace closed, in late 2011.[1]

Meanwhile, Aliens in the Empire[1] (2007 Hyperspace article) and Book of Sith: Secrets from the Dark Side, both included elements from the unreleased script of SE, as JB seems to have kept good relation with other authors.[5][6][7]

In the middle of 2014, JB wrote that his website "will feature some never-before seen stories that were solicited and submitted to Lucasfilm back in the day by yours truly!!", but nothing was published there this year, or until 2017, that would fit that description.[8] In 2015, JB engaged in talk with Lucasfilm through Matt Martin/Dan Brooks, so that the ED would be published on StarWars.com. According to JB, Martin and Brooks approved it for publication, but it would have to segmented in several parts. Again, this never came to pass, and at the demand of JB, Lucasfilm authorized him to publish the ED on his own website, with the possibility that "they could then be linked to or embedded in the Blog". Martin/Brooks also approved of JB's plan to "further edit the works over the coming months to ensure they were up-to-date".[1] Those edits included update to accommodate information from officially released content, such as Fate of the Jedi (2009-2012), Star Wars: The Clone Wars (2008-2014) and Star Wars Rebels (2014-2018): "as other Star Wars authors and content creators developed ideas that blended well with my own."[1], and were included in SE between 2015 and 2018, with even new ideas originating from JCF influencing JB.[9]

A reworked CE ("[I] put back in the long-before dropped section "Datapad Found in a Deserted Ship"")[10] was then published on starwarstimeline.net on December 25, 2017,[11] and SE on October 31, 2018[12], in a somewhat cut state: "Somewhat hurrying to publish Supernatural Encounters before my window of opportunity closed, I cut out swathes of material that I felt needed more time, development, or which might conflict with Star Wars: The Old Republic.".[1] However this cut didn't happen after 2015, but long before, in 2009,[4] but is not the only thing edited out at some point of SE.[13] JB quickly expressed his intention to provide endnotes and adding back cut content by the end of 2018.[12] However, the initial release window was postponed, and the scope of the "Expanded Edition" was upscaled with the addition of several illustrations (by Chris Cold, and, later, Guillaume Ducos) supported by a fundraising (crowdfunding) with a goal of $3,500, and physical editions as rewards for backers.[14][15][16] At the moment, JB is still working on an Expanded Edition,[1][17] currently reaching more than 700 pages.[18] He also added an SE FAQ on November 21, 2020.[19]--NanoLuukeCloning facility 12:21, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

Points of contention[]

"Although they have not been cross-posted or promoted on the Blog (yet, at least; I haven't heard anything either way about if or when this will happen, and I suspect the focus of the Blog has shifted in the intervening time period to promoting newer works), fans can take solace in the fact the publication on my website was approved by Lucasfilm, was intended as an official publication (as opposed to my unofficial publications of cancelled or unpublished works, with the authors' permission, on the same site), and can be treated as official "canon" within the old Expanded Universe continuity."
Joe Bongiorno[src]

Before I expose some of my observation and opinion on the situation, I want to point out that the matters is not to discuss the value of the ED for the Star Wars Fandom at large, but its merit as a document under the scope of Wookieepedia, an encyclopedia dedicated solely to the documentation of official Star Wars fiction and non-fiction. To my fellow editors: feel free to comment each sub-section individually, or to engage in global discussion further down.

Our current informal stance regarding content from the ED is to consider both works as cancelled and any content from those are relegated to the "Behind the scenes" section of articles, using {{Unlicensedstart}} and {{Unlicensedend}}, which reads "Warning: The following section contains information from a Star Wars Legends source that was released outside of the Lucas Licensing process, and its licensing status was never confirmed by Lucasfilm Ltd.". This stance is contested by JB in a section of his SE FAQ: "Wookieepedia is taking the stance that the work is "cancelled" (which it never was) or "unlicensed" (which isn't accurate either) and labelling it as such."

Note: There was mention of mails sent by JB to Wookieepedia administrators,[1] however, I can't find any trace of such things (such as File linking to his article or the document articles). If the current administration team could bring some light here, that would be helpful. And no, the mail on Cult Encounters of the Star Wars Universe from JB is unrelated, has it was added by Kuralyov at the creation of the article, in 2006.--NanoLuukeCloning facility 12:21, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

On the matter of the "official/authorized/licensed" status[]

There is no simple answer here...

For what we know of the history of the ED, it was greenlighted for development at several stages: first for SW Gamer, second for Hyperspace, third for SW.com, meaning there was a clear intention of possible official publication at three points in time, and JB was clearly authorized to develop it, and later, was authorized to publish it on his website. JB was licensed to work on the ED since, at the time of Hyperspace, he filled legal documents (including a CA-587 and Form W-9),[1][20] meaning that there existed a legal contract between him and Lucasfilm and that contrat licensed/allowed him to do something for Lucasfilm: writing ED.

However, and that's the master detail for me: at the time of publication on his personal website, while authorized by Lucasfilm to do so (per a reasoning unknown to us), ED was not official anymore. The main argument for this is, to our knowledge, that it didn't go through an official editorial process supervised by Lucasfilm. The term "approved" is used several time in JB's own account of the events, including regarding 2015 attempt with SW.com, but to me it is quite unclear in what capacity this approval was referring to exactly, since at any rate both works were never published in an official capacity by an official channel. For all we know, the 2015 publishing attempt could have resulted in a Lucasfilm labelling CE and SE as "non-canon" and its relation to continuity "left to the reader own discretion and appreciation".

Furthermore, and I insist on this: SE and CE kept being edited between 2009, 2015, 2017-2018, and even more after that for SE (with a planned Extended Edition), all the while without any editorial support and input from Lucasfilm, with JB relying on his own team of proofreaders and contributors. To JB's own admittance: "The plan to edit the work further was understood and approved", but no further Lucasfilm input that this initial approval dating from 2015 can be found, and again there is no saying exactly how much Lucasfilm directly "understood and approved".--NanoLuukeCloning facility 12:21, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

Comments[]

On the matter of the "cancelled" status[]

"On a similar note, it was never officially cancelled." This is true, since "officially cancelled" would have to mean that Lucasfilm would have to make a public announcement regarding this. But in practice, as it was never publicly announced or marketed by Lucasfilm (to my knowledge), there was no need for it to be "officially cancelled". I'm not dismissing that JB meant by this sentence that he was never informed in private correspondance with Lucasfilm that CE and SE were cancelled, but the facts are clear: SWGamer and Hyperspace were discontinued; at this date, ED was never published in an official capacity; and it's been 20 years since those works were originally commissioned. If we're not allowing ourselves to call that cancelled, I'm literally at a loss of word as to what to call the official publishing status of ED. JB, as its author, might not consider it cancelled, but that's only his personal POV, not the POV of Lucasfilm, who again, never published what was commissioned in early 2000's.--NanoLuukeCloning facility 12:21, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

Comments[]

On the matter of the "continuity" status[]

"That's a tricky question to answer, as canon means something quite different now than when I wrote the work. Matt Martin understood the work to be a so-called "Legends" work and approved it for publication as such, although I had incorporated some elements of lore from the so-called new canon. It was certainly intended to be an Expanded Universe work, and due to being both Lucasfilm-licensed and approved for publication via my website, I believe it would be categorized as C-canon in the old classification system, although how that applies to post-Disney works of the old Expanded Universe (particularly those which have been published somewhat unconventionally such as SkyeWalkers and Supernatural Encounters) is unclear to me (and I haven't received any further guidance from Lucasfilm), and as I'm not Keeper of the Holocron, I can't state things regarding canonicity authoritatively."
Joe Bongiorno[src]

The above quote resume JB stance regarding his work, with the previous statement (on the same page) cementing his own point-of-view regarding his work: "[it] can be treated as official "canon" within the old Expanded Universe continuity."

But should we treat it as such? Based on my comment regarding the cancelled status of the official previously approved versions of the ED, and the non-official status of CE and SE in their various versions since their un-official publication in 2017-2018 (and before, since the last input from Lucasfilm in 2015, maybe even 2008-9), along with the retro-addition of content exclusive to the current Canon, such as World Between Worlds/Legends (included in the 2018 page version), and without any further guidance from Lucasfilm, it seems most reasonable to consider the integrity of the ED as non-canon in the Legends continuity.--NanoLuukeCloning facility 12:21, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

Comments[]

On the matter of Wookieepedia interest[]

First of all, I'm very wary of M. Bongiorno authoritative attitude regarding continuity in general, and while I am certainly not trying to critize the man, as it is his absolute right to dedicate his passion and his website in any way he might want, nor to put in question his good faith as he himself has been quite open regarding his views, but it appear quite clearly that his objectives and views, and ours, do not align:

  • In publishing the lost novel The Heart of the Jedi (by Kenneth C. Flint), instead of presenting the script in a somewhat pristine, historically accurate state, he chose to take the mantle of the editor, including for continuity purpose.[21]
  • In mixing Canon stories in his Legends/EU timeline, following a "One Canon" approach (an attempt at synthesis of all continuities),[22] which started in 2016 with Rebels.[23] A list of those inclusions can be found on JCF.
  • While I dislike giving intention to a writer which he did not explicitly express, readers of SE (for example, on JCF) have noticed an attempt by JB in the prose to define the current Canon as a "second universe" created by Splendid Ap with the help of the World Between Worlds/Legends,[24] in a somewhat pejorative way.[25]

Those example matters in the current case, as they display the author tendencies to juggle with the continuities, which in turn bring under a certain light the editorial events unfolding since 2015 in regards of SE development, in particular the addition of Canon-only concept in the novella. To anyone interested in exploring the mindset of the author further, I suggest reading his déclaration (8/11/17 Policy-Talk: EU/DU, Canon and Everything in Between) from 2016.

While there is no denying that CE and SE are both part of the history of Star Wars, only part of the history and content of the ED is of interest to Wookieepedia in my opinion, but where to draw the line?

I've tried to reach Hidalgo and Martin on Twitter about what they recall of the ED, and while Pablo didn't respond (which, given the current context, is understandable), Martin responded that he was unable to recall something so far off. However, Leland Chee was very kind to answer my inquiries about the ED status in the Holocron continuity database: "That material never made it to my desk."[26] This simple sentence make thing quite clear for us: the ED, in any form, is not recognized as a part of the official continuity, and that's all that really matters to us. As such the prose published by JB should be considered Fanon.

My personal recommandation would be to ignore all versions of the prose of CE and SE publicly released on starwarstimeline.net for editing purpose, not even under {{Unlicensedstart}}/{{Unlicensedend}}, on both account that those works didn't go through a chain of verification/final approval/publication by Lucasfilm, and that it's not even registered in the Holocron. Furthermore, those two documents should still be considered as cancelled, meaning that, with great circumspection, we could consider adding information to the "Behind the scenes" section of articles (without going into great details) about anything prior to 2015. I would even argue that the last relevant version for us should be the last sent to Lucasfilm for Hyperspace publication, which is most likely the 2009 version. Anything past that lack too much publication context.

As of now, anything from the current Canon that found its way to the ED should be removed from Wookieepedia (such as World Between Worlds/Legends), as it fall under fanon.--NanoLuukeCloning facility 12:21, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

Update: Pablo Hidalgo did in fact responded... just not to me :p . On November 2, @rum1n8 ask on Twitter :"Howdy, Pablo! A sweeping project by Joe Bongiorno called "Supernatural Encounters" is almost finished; it looks to be the GFFA version of the Silmarillion. Can you clarify whether this project, when finished, will be considered an official, licensed Legends source?", to which Pablo answered "i wouldn't think so, as it's not gone through any of the editorial channels here." Can't make it clearer than this.[27] --NanoLuukeCloning facility 18:36, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

Update 2: Thanks a message on JCF, I managed to track down a series of more in-deep comments by Leland Chee on Twitter from March 2021: 1, 2 and 3. I'm not going to go over the details, as it's not really adding to what we already know, but I wanted to add it to the record. --NanoLuukeCloning facility 19:35, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

Update 3: I mentioned earlier that I messaged Pablo Hidalgo on Twitter (back on November 8). He was on a temporary Twitter hiatus at the time, but he started to be active, and to my surprised, he responded to my previous inquiry, declaring (in regard to the Hyperspace service):

  • "I recall commissioning it but it not getting past internal approvals for a variety of reasons."[28]
  • "If I recall, the commission was unusual in that it pre-existed in some format at least but I could not look at it until the author has completed an agreement."[29] --NanoLuukeCloning facility 07:38, 17 November 2021 (UTC)

Comments[]

Discussions[]

As a kind of unrelated comment, but given how I might appear antagonistic toward M. Bongiorno in the context of this SH, I wanted it to be put on the record that while I might disagree with him on many things, I have an immense respect for what M. Bongiorno has accomplished to preserve Star Wars lost history and to preserve documents that would otherwise have been lost. Regarding the ED, there are still a lot of grey area that would interesting for us to investigate (but only the Joe Bongiorno or Pablo would be able to answer that), such as why exactly it was never released on Hyperspace since it was apparently ready by 2009, 2 years before it was discontinued.--NanoLuukeCloning facility 12:21, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

  • Good points, Nano. I might add that the informal attitude toward these works at least among the administration of pre-March 2021 was that we didn't have access to the original, unedited manuscript that was supposedly submitted to Lucasfilm -> therefore we couldn't really tell what was approved by Lucasfilm and what was a result of Bongiorno's later fan edits -> therefore none of this stuff belonged on Wookieepedia. We just never got around to mounting a planned initiative regarding this matter. Also, I would be wary of blanket statements recommending that we "ignore any prose publicly released on starwarstimeline.net for editing purpose", as we do have precedent (1, 2) for using cancelled material by other authors that has been republished on that site (see Bongiorno's quote about him republishing said material with the authors' permission). Imperators II(Talk) 13:52, 9 November 2021 (UTC)
  • This is definitely the most thorough SH thread I've seen, and I really appreciate all the time you took to put this together. I guess I don't have much to say other than that I agree with your conclusions. VergenceScatter (talk) 15:26, 9 November 2021 (UTC)
  • Seconding the above comment, this is definitely one of the most thorough and well thought out SH threads we've ever seen. Great work! Supreme Emperor Holocomm 17:23, 9 November 2021 (UTC)
  • Thank you for so thoroughly researching this! My feeling is: even though the work originally began as a manuscript intended for publication by Lucasfilm, coming close multiple times, it never got published by Lucasfilm. To be considered cut or cancelled content, we need Lucasfilm's acknowledgement that it was once in the works (like The Essential Guide to Episode I and Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic 3). Although other authors have used a few pieces (like Typhojem) in their publications, those uses don't bring the rest of the writing into canon or Legends. In his own words, "I haven't received any further guidance from Lucasfilm"—despite his personal point of view on the matter, without involvement from Lucasfilm, it can't be considered approved. We can't determine what parts were ever viewed by Lucasfilm prior to 2008-9 since he continued to work on it, so I don't think we can separate out what once had someone's eyes on it and what has been entirely his own initiative as a fan. I don't know that we can even include content in BTS sections since we can't distinguish what's fanon and what was almost published. Similarly, his site publishing an edited version of The Heart of the Jedi means we can't determine what was and wasn't part of the original submission; I believe we should remove articles (like Taj Valladian and Dioskouros) for the same reason. Immi Thrax RainbowRebellion2.png (she/her) (talk) 19:49, 9 November 2021 (UTC)
  • Excellent work Nano. As for the mails that are claimed to have been sent to the Admin team, we have no idea if they exist. As far as I know, none of the current Admin team has access or received any mails, and we're not aware if they were sent or not. DarthRuiz30 (talk) 20:33, 9 November 2021 (UTC)
  • Very impressive work, and well researched! I agree with your conclusion. If we can't determine what was in the original text that was supposed to be published and what was added after the fact, then I don't think we should be mentioning it in the BTS at all really. Zed42 (talk) 21:39, 9 November 2021 (UTC)
  • Amazing work Nano! From what I understand, the project was never officially announced from Lucasfilm's side and the only confirmation we have that it was ever reviewed is from JB and his website, right? Just JB making the announcements for all intents and purposes. Both Chee and Hidalgo have said they're not aware of these works. I think it would be a bad precedent to accept any of these works as official or even non-canon and as others have mentioned, it should be treated as fanon in its entirety - IF any of the work was genuinely reviewed and greenlit, we can't verify that given the lack of intention to publish was made via official Star wars channels (hence it follows that no cancellation announcement would be made). Further, it is personally a little concerning some of the commentary regarding canon/disney and the pedestal legends is held up with, both within the works and in the general comments on the forums and social media pages. Much as I love Legends, I fear these works feed into that toxic narration with the language used. As wookieedians, we should avoid such bias and foibles. We document what is officially part of the star wars universe and this hasn't been acknowledged via any official channels. Note the works themselves as cancelled but unique articles and BTS mentions should be avoided. Manoof (he/him/his) (talk) 08:38, 10 November 2021 (UTC)
    • While I support the analysis that M. Bongiorno perspective on his own work (and SW continuities at large) is heavily biased, I don't think we should dismiss his recollection of events. Obviously, it would have to be formulated into something like "according to" and could definitely afford to be supported by additional sources, but it is absolutely something we should put in an article (his and his works). The contention catalyse in the fact that the narrative supported by Bongiorno is that prior approval/licensing still hold true in some capacity to "legitimize" the ED since 2017, while as statement from Pablo and Leland disproved that. JB commented yesterday on Facebook that he interpreted Pablo statement as referring to recent era ("as in the post-Disney era"), which is something I agree with, as it does not contradict his statement regarding the Hyperspace period... while at the same time, it confirm my suspicion that the 2015 SW.com publishing attempt wasn't intended by Lucasfilm as a fully-fledge editorial endeavor. --NanoLuukeCloning facility 09:16, 10 November 2021 (UTC)
  • Everything I am getting from these debates seems to point that CE and SE are not truly canonical. I feel this is notable enough for stuff to be explained as behind the scenes—since this is an important bit of IRL Star Wars information/controversy, but that there just isn’t good evidence to my mind that these works are actually canonical. --SaintSirNicholas (talk) 08:33, 12 November 2021 (UTC)

Emails[]

Hello everyone, Edward Dodds here. A little bit about me: I was one of the early editors brought on-board to Supernatural Encounters, and although I am a professional writer, currently working on Unauthorized Offworld Activation: Exploring the Stargate Franchise for Sequart Books (edited by Rich Handley), unlike Joe Bongiorno (who previously contributed to Star Wars Gamer, Star Wars Insider and Star Wars: The Roleplaying Game) and Rich (a prolific author of Star Wars articles, short stories and comics), I don’t have any prior official credits in the Star Wars Expanded Universe (although I did proofread another story by a different author for Hyperspace); therefore, I want to be clear that I cannot comment authoritatively on anything outside of the rather narrow scope of Supernatural Encounters, and I am not nearly as fluent in Lucasfilm internal processes and norms as Joe, Rich and others. I am also not an established Wookieepedian, so if I flagrantly violate protocols and etiquette in this discussion, please forgive me and treat it as an ignorant mistake.

I want to submit some of the emails exchanged between Joe Bongiorno, Rich Handley and various Lucasfilm executives (Pablo Hidalgo, Matt Martin and Dan Brooks) pertaining to Cult Encounters and Supernatural Encounters. Note: This is only part of the publication story, as it were, of the ED; multiple emails between Lucasfilm and the authors have been redacted for privacy reasons, and of course, not all contact pertaining to SE took place through such formal channels. But, I hope the emails serve to demonstrate that the FAQ linked above, in which Joe Bongiorno detailed the publication history of Supernatural Encounters in painstaking and transparent detail for reasons of fan interest, is a factual account.

[removed]

I would like to thank NanoLuuke for a very comprehensive write-up. While I disagree with his conclusions, and the suggested manner of resolving this ongoing debate in the fandom as pertaining to Wookieepedia (which I believe represents a prejudicial purge of Encounters content that is inconsistent with over a decade of Wookieepedia precedent on comparable cases, and perhaps is partly responsible for the passionate and sometimes fiery defense of Supernatural Encounters’ official origins and nature from its fans), I am genuinely thankful for the diligence and clear good faith demonstrated above.

I would, however, like to present a cogent and comprehensive defense of the inclusion of ED lore on Wookieepedia, add some further evidence and context, and clear up some statements above that I believe are incorrect, incomplete or (unintentionally) misleading; furthermore, I would like to make a policy suggestion that I believe would be a fair and equitable compromise between the two “camps” on this issue, and more importantly, consistently and impartially accord with a wealth of Wookieepedian precedent on handling material of far, far more dubious provenance and canonical status than Supernatural Encounters. After all, Wookieepedia prolifically chronicles, across hundreds of articles, lore from entirely unlicensed sources, written by authors entirely separate from the Lucasfilm approvals process or even the approvals processes of license-holding companies, whereas this current debate is concerning a smattering of articles written by passionate Expanded Universe fans and collectors regarding an official Expanded Universe novella that was solicited in-house for the Star Wars Hyperspace service, that was (post-reboot) approved to be published online by Matt Martin (of the Lucasfilm Story Group) with the explicit and stated intention of cross-posting it to the starwars.com Blog, and the explicit request it be edited to 1. keep up-to-date with current continuity and 2. clarify its status as Legends (in the same vein as Abel G. Peña’s SkyeWalkers and Lone Wolf—although the kicker is, inexplicably, the cross-posting has not occurred despite approval of publication, hence the lively debate).

I have writing deadlines coming up tonight, so I’m not sure if I’ll be able to submit my write-up (if permitted) tonight or whether I’ll have to finish tomorrow, but I hope (in case there is a vote on the matter coming up shortly, which I was told was Wookieepedian tradition in these matters) you can bear with me while I collect and compile my thoughts, and present my analysis for editors’ consideration.

All the best,

Edward --Darth Venomis 01:03, 12 November 2021 (UTC)

  • The link to the emails has been removed given that there's no proof that LFL employees gave consent to have those distributed. --DarthRuiz30 (talk) 01:42, 12 November 2021 (UTC)
    • Ah, perhaps I misinterpreted, my apologies. It appeared Wookieepedia administrators were specifically requesting them above: "Note: There was mention of mails sent by JB to Wookieepedia administrators, however, I can't find any trace of such things (such as File linking to his article or the document articles). If the current administration team could bring some light here, that would be helpful," so I thought it would be helpful to provide a link to what was already publicly posted by a fan (with Joe Bongiorno's permission) on the Jedi Council Forums.--Darth Venomis 02:30, 12 November 2021 (UTC)
      • The administration is aware of the current emails being shared. As there's no proof that all parties agreed for the emails to be shared, we're not allowing them to be shared in our site or Discord. As for the original emails, as commented above, the current Admin team has no access or received any sort of email from Bongiorno. We have no way of knowing if indeed the current emails being shared are the same that supposedly were sent. DarthRuiz30 (talk) 03:45, 12 November 2021 (UTC)
        • Fair enough. I am the one who facilitated the sending of those emails to Toprawa (whose detail was given to me by one Jedi_Kasra, and who I believe was the former head admin) a couple of years ago, so I can confirm that the emails are the same. They were forwarded via Gmail (or equivalent service), and I can put Joe in touch with the current admin team to prove veracity or answer any other questions, if desired.--Darth Venomis 04:21, 12 November 2021 (UTC)
          • Just letting you know for the record, Venomis, Toprawa is currently banned from this site and Kasra is no longer active. JediMasterMacaroni(Talk) 04:57, 12 November 2021 (UTC)
  • Hi Darth Venomis, I'm replying regarding this point: "After all, Wookieepedia prolifically chronicles, across hundreds of articles, lore from entirely unlicensed sources, written by authors entirely separate from the Lucasfilm approvals process or even the approvals processes of license-holding companies". I've made a sandbox/workbench for unlicensed works so we can further review which are unlicensed in which sense, such as: 1) released without a license, but something from it was later referred to in a licensed source; 2) released without a license, and someone from LFL confirmed it was not licensed and/or non-canonical; 3) released but LFL can't find the paperwork to confirm if it was or was not ever licensed (ex. MyComyc); 4) presumably released without a license, but we don't have info from LFL about it, and so on. At this time, I've only compiled the sources behind the articles in the category Category:Articles from unlicensed sources, not those of the subcategory. This'll take time, of course, but letting you know that you were heard. Good luck with your deadlines! Immi Thrax RainbowRebellion2.png (she/her) (talk) 14:46, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
  • Hi, Mr. Dodds. While I've not responded to your initial message, since there was nothing for me to add, I've taken good care of reading what you had to say, and I was looking forward to your write-up. However, it appears, again with Mr. Hidalgo message today (see Update 3), that everything relevant to Wookieepedia disposition regarding the duology is publicly available and gathered, at my expenses, here. Therefore, the natural evolution for this discussion is to move to a community consensus vote, which should take place soon, but not before another week at least. --NanoLuukeCloning facility 16:06, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
    • I forgot to add that any consensus the community will reach could always be overturned if new informations were to force us to do so, such as an hypothetical recognition by Lucasfilm, for example. But at the moment, and as editors are in agreements this is quite unlikely to happen anytime soon, if ever, we can only act in regards to our principles and the information at hand. --NanoLuukeCloning facility 16:23, 17 November 2021 (UTC)

Notes and references[]

  1. 1.00 1.01 1.02 1.03 1.04 1.05 1.06 1.07 1.08 1.09 1.10 Bongiorno, Joe: Supernatural Encounters. starwarstimeline.net. Archived from the original on November 7, 2021.
  2. Jaymach may have something to do with this.
  3. 3.0 3.1 2018 version of: Bongiorno, Joe: Supernatural Encounters. starwarstimeline.net. Archived from the original on December 9, 2018.
  4. 4.0 4.1 Facebook icon.svg The Star Wars Expanded Universe Timeline (@starwarstimeline) on Facebook2009 cut content (April 2, 2019). "The purpose behind the Extended Edition isn't so much as to introduce new lore to Supernatural Encounters (although there are some additions) but primarily to restore material that had been excised back in 2009 due to my concern over the ever-expanding Sith lore. After further research and extensive consultation with knowledgeable parties, the Sith material has been restored, with some changes to account for newer lore introduced in the Old Republic." (backup link)
  5. BloggerLogo.png Daniel Wallace's Geekosity — Endnotes for Star Wars: Book of Sith (part 1) on Blogspot (backup link)
  6. Bongiorno, Joe: Supernatural Encounters. starwarstimeline.net. Archived from the original on November 7, 2021. "In turn, lore from the Encounters duology, was incorporated into other works by my colleagues, such as Ampotem Za (in the 2007 Hyperspace article “Aliens of the Empire,” by Abel G. Peña and Rich Handley) and Typhojem, the Left-Handed God (in the 2012 Becker & Mayer work Book of Sith: Secrets from the Dark Side, by Dan Wallace, who included this element of the mythology at the suggestion of Abel G. Peña, who had contributed to the Encounters duology"
  7. Note that Daniel Wallace then introduced Typhojem to canon with 2018 Star Wars: Smuggler's Guide.
  8. Bongiorno, Joe: Archived News 2014. starwarstimeline.net. Archived from the original on November 8, 2021. "5/6/14 Things to Come: [...] Also, this site will feature some never-before seen stories that were solicited and submitted to Lucasfilm back in the day by yours truly!!"
  9. Bongiorno, Joe: Supernatural Encounters. starwarstimeline.net. Archived from the original on December 9, 2018. "But that was not the end... Several of my proofreaders, dedicated Star Wars enthusiasts all, urged me to put it online. The only problem was that some advancements had been made in the years since, and these would have to be accounted for if the story was going to still work. The fact is that the developments in both the Fate of the Jedi and Clone Wars series (the "Mortis" arc) fit strangely well into what was already in place. Once I completed that, I released Cult Encounters (I'm happy to say to some very favorable reviews), and set a date for its sequel, October 31, 2018, nearly 20 years since the ideas were first conceived. In that time, I had the opportunity to bring more proofreaders onboard, as well as to hear ideas from fans over at the Jedi Council forums, many who tapped into my train of thought, and others who had some cool and fantastic ideas of their own!"
  10. Bongiorno, Joe: Cult Encounters. starwarstimeline.net. Archived from the original on November 7, 2021.
  11. Bongiorno, Joe: Archived News 2017. starwarstimeline.net. Archived from the original on November 8, 2021. "12/25/17 A Spooky Christmas Present"
  12. 12.0 12.1 Bongiorno, Joe: Archived News 2018. starwarstimeline.net. Archived from the original on November 8, 2021. "10/31/18 The Supernatural Is Upon Us!"
  13. Facebook icon.svg The Star Wars Expanded Universe Timeline (@starwarstimeline) on FacebookOctobrer 2019 update (October 2, 2019). (backup link)
  14. Bongiorno, Joe: Archived News 2019. starwarstimeline.net. Archived from the original on November 9, 2021.
  15. Bongiorno, Joe: Supernatural Encounters. PayPal. Archived from the original on November 9, 2021.
  16. Disclaimer: This is a not-for-profit fan project that is not intended for commercial use. All publicly recognizable characters, settings, etc. are the property of their respective owners Lucasfilm/Disney. No copyright infringement is intended or implied.
  17. Bongiorno, Joe: Supernatural Encounters. starwarstimeline.net. Archived from the original on November 7, 2021. "I have since restored these and other sections, as well as made some additional revisions and improvements, as is normal for the editing process. In addition, full-color illustrations by the amazing Chris Cold and Guillaume Ducos have been provided. The plan to edit the work further was understood and approved, and typical of online Star Wars publications (such as my colleagues' publications on Hyperspace and the Wizards of the Coast website), so fans shouldn't worry about it making-or-breaking the approvals process at Lucasfilm. I consider the extended edition to be the definitive version."
  18. Bongiorno, Joe: Latest News. starwarstimeline.net. Archived from the original on November 9, 2021. "11/1/21 SE Update"
  19. Bongiorno, Joe: Archived News 2020. starwarstimeline.net. Archived from the original on November 9, 2021. "11/21/20 SE FAQ!"
  20. Facebook icon.svg The Star Wars Expanded Universe Timeline (@starwarstimeline) on Facebooklicensing post (July 6, 2019). "Hey guys, I was directed to a post regarding the status of SE as official EU. This is something I'll address at length in the forthcoming intro to the EE of SE (that's a lot of acronyms). Supernatural Encounters was both licensed and approved. I did track down the license I signed and sent to LFL, which I'd forgotten about earlier (when I said it was unlicensed). The licensing agreement is comprised of standard forms and tax docs, no signing in blood or anything like that. 🙂" (backup link)
  21. Bongiorno, Joe: Archived News 2015. starwarstimeline.net. Archived from the original on November 8, 2021. "5/19/15 Update and Clarifications"
  22. Bongiorno, Joe: Star Wars Timeline: The Complete Chronology. starwarstimeline.net. Archived from the original on November 8, 2021. "This Complete Saga page follows a "One Canon" approach, allowing EU-Compatible stories that reasonably fit from the post-Disney era of Star Wars literature."
  23. Bongiorno, Joe: Archived News 2016. starwarstimeline.net. Archived from the original on November 8, 2021. "11/5/16 Rebels in the Expanded Universe: [...] Since the inception of the Disney Universe—what we here consider to be an AU: Alternate Universe—we have stated that if a post-Disney era story can fit into the original continuity of the Expanded Universe—what we consider canon—then it should be done. The determining factor for this has always been whether or not it can reasonably (not perfectly) fit into continuity. Based on what I've seen of the series thus far, Rebels meets this criteria."
  24. [Chapter 17: Progeny] Bongiorno, Joe: Supernatural Encounters. starwarstimeline.net. Archived from the original on December 9, 2018. "“Although he does not fully understand his unique gift, Splendid Ap has discovered the World between Worlds, from which we created our new realm, and has opened a window, projecting a potential future, an inchoate echo of what may be. There, they have left a future imprint of themselves. When the stream of time catches up to where this eidolon awaits, it will come to life as if anew.”
    “This dimension of ours may be tractable, but this cannot be done without consequence,” Wutzek exclaimed.
    “Indeed, it cannot,” Lluxos agreed. “For Ap has carelessly imprinted upon something that is not. In so doing, he has not only directed the stream but split it, forcing into being a second universe, a copy of our own in which their actions must take place. Ah, and as we speak,” Lluxos added, for he was given the gift of farsight and could see into their actions, “Splendid Ap has deigned to move to yet another point that will arrive shortly after the Firstborn have been established. In this, however, he has used far more care, for he must have realized his error. They are now embedded at a singular point in time and will remain frozen until that time organically transpires. You will see your offspring then, for they will shape the way this new galaxy proceeds from that moment forward.”"
  25. [Chapter 18: Shapes of Things to Come] Bongiorno, Joe: Supernatural Encounters. starwarstimeline.net. Archived from the original on December 9, 2018. "Splendid Ap sought to seal the pocket dimension behind him, but something wasn’t quite right. Then he remembered the error! Their actions with the tiny movers would leave behind an echo of them at a projected future moment in time. Even worse, the small bubble that had been the pocket dimension would not cease to exist, as it ought to, but would continue to grow. He, in essence, created a parallel dimension that would begin to develop its own separate history and timeline based on—but apart from—its original. Yet it had no true beginning, save the one he gave it, and its path would follow a different trajectory from the original. Without the investment of the Celestials working on it, developing it into an interwoven fabric, and without even his hand upon it, it would only ever be hollow and sterile, a pale and broken imitation of a far greater thing."
  26. TwitterLogo.svg Leland Chee (@HolocronKeeper) on Twitter: "That material never made it to my desk." (backup link)
  27. TwitterLogo.svg pablo Hidalgo (@pabl0hidalgo) on Twitter: "i wouldn't think so, as it's not gone through any of the editorial channels here." (backup link)
  28. TwitterLogo.svg pablo Hidalgo (@pabl0hidalgo) on Twitter: "I recall commissioning it but it not getting past internal approvals for a variety of reasons." (backup link)
  29. TwitterLogo.svg pablo Hidalgo (@pabl0hidalgo) on Twitter: "If I recall, the commission was unusual in that it pre-existed in some format at least but I could not look at it until the author has completed an agreement." (backup link)
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