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Current status: Former featured article

IntentionsEdit

Among other things, it's never made completely clear whether or not Kreia's actual intention was to kill the force, or whether it was simply another layer of deceit. These lines, in particular, seem to shed doubt on Kreia's ultimate intentions:

"Learn from me, my mistakes, and use that knowledge to become greater than I. That is all I desire. In you all my hopes rest, for the future, for the Force."

You could construe that in two ways - that Kreia realized her plan had failed and was "redeemed," or that the entire ending was a ruse and a final step in her training of the Exile, and was planned from the beginning. Now, both are possible - I'm personally a huge fan of Kreia's character and think the former is too simplistic and nearsighted to fit, but at the very least there should be *something*in the article reflecting this possibility. Perhap's Kreia's intention was not at all to kill the force, but simply to kill the remaining people perpetuating the dogmas which she detested so much (the Jedi masters, who were so blind to the true nature of the Exile, the Sith lords, who had betrayed Kreia, and Atris, who had fallen), thus leaving hope "for the future, for the Force." Note her predictions on the fate of Brianna and Mical, in which she clearly expresses hope for the future of the Jedi order in teachings of "the Jedi exile who gave up the Force … and became stronger for it." Unsigned comment by 128.138.65.184 (talk • contribs).

  • Unless you can provide a source that supports your theory, it's just your theory and thus cannot be included in the article per our no original research rule. –Tm_T (Talk) 10:49, February 2, 2011 (UTC)
    • It's clear that this is the case - she openly admits such in the final dialogue before you fight her the last time.The only source that has ever stated that Kreia actually intended to destroy the force was BioWare's SWTOR webpage, which isn't exactly reliable as BioWare did not make the game (and clearly didn't pay much attention while playing it, either). Read the following quotes:
    • Exile: "The academy here won't last, Kreia. I can activate the mass shadow generator again."
    • Kreia: "More talk of machines and threats. If you would end Malachor, then do it. But it would not be a victory for you. You may hold Malachor in your grasp, but I hold the answers to your past and future in mine. Would you destroy us both before learning them? If so, then do it - for you have already failed me."
    • Exile: "If I had to, I would. You have to be stopped."
    • Kreia: "I know. But there is more than death in this galaxy, and you shall not find it easy. It was difficult to draw you here, but it had to be done. This is your final test."
    • Now, if that's not blatantly stating that Kreia used the threat of ending the force to draw the Exile to Malachor as a final test, then I don't know what is. It's hardly original research if it's outright stated in the game.Unsigned comment by 96.231.30.84 (talk • contribs).
      • I find it debatable what was what she used to draw her there, was it Sith, the end of the Republic, threat towards the Jedi, or towards the force, or something else. I live in hope that future sources will tell. –Tm_T (Talk) 10:24, August 8, 2011 (UTC)
        • Regardless, she makes it abundantly clear that her actions at the end of the game were intended as the Exile's "final test" that would force her to face the horror of Malachor in her past and complete her training. She thus never truly "falls" or is "redeemed," rather she is the same Kreia as she has been the entire game, but simply with another layer of deception.
          • Beyond the stat blocks, nothing about KOTOR II is "abundantly clear." Whether her actions were /intended/ to be the final test is an assumption. The only thing "outright stated" is that, according to Kreia, it simply "is [the exile's] final test." No more, no less. The idea of a "final test" is in and of itself, an ephemeral concept. Adding to that the fact that Kreia is essentially a liar, as you yourself have pointed out, and it is still a speculation when you are choosing to believe as definite fact one possible lie and you dismiss another. To say that BioWare is the only source for Kreia's intentions is quite silly. While the game supports the "destruction of the force" theory as much as "the Exile's final exams" theory, we also have things like the interviews with Chris Avelone. "She sees in the player a chance to turn away from predestination and destroy that which binds all things, giving the galaxy back its freedom," is a marginally clear statement of intent from Obsidian's lead writer on Knights of the Old Republic II. Also, please sign your comments with ~~~~. SinisterSamurai 16:13, August 8, 2011 (UTC)

you are forgetting the exile is the death of the force and thus she is favouring her plan on to destroy the force. on the game it says it was her intention to create an echo that will destroy everything touched by the force like "generating" force users with the potential to ignore its will. --Darth Corch 20:46, August 23, 2011 (UTC)Darth Corch.

  • I'm not "forgetting" that at all, but the game never says that the exile is the death of the force, rather only that looking at the exile is "like" looking at the death of the force. And while killing the force is certainly the motive Kreia initially claims to have, Kreia elaborates on her true motives at the end; the death of the force was merely a threat Kreia used to force the exile into confronting her, such that the exile might resolve his past and complete his training. Kreia sees that by eliminating the Jedi and Sith and training the exile, she might preserve the truth she sees in the exile, that one can turn away from the force and become stronger for it. None of these conclusions require much interpretation, either - it all comes straight from Kreia's dialogue in the final scene of the game.71.237.90.48 15:55, October 13, 2011 (UTC)

This idea you have put forth, friend, is on the right track, though I think it belies a simpler tradition. This tradition concerns the serpent and the serpent slayer. The latter is so precisely because of his relation with the former, that is, with the serpent. A serpent slayer is one who has the powers of a serpent, and therefore is one who replaces the old with the new. Let us say, therefore, Kreia had in mind to server the will of the force by preventing the exile to return to the ways of the force. In this way the wound would not be allowed to heal. Ah, now we come to the conclusion that Kreia was testing the force inasmuch as she was testing her apprentice. Could the force be redeemed through Him or Her, or would that path to redemption be severed, creating an echo throughout such and so forth? How eloquent, but to address the subject of this debate, Kreia was using the Jedi for the purpose of renewal, not unlike the serpent who sheds its skin to reveal a new one. The old skin, as it was, had become corrupted, and thus had to prove itself once again, by redeeming he or she who had been corrupted. Our host is not incorrect in emphasizing the 'test' which Kreia had put fort, however, this test was not a test of the Exile, but of the Force, which only could be redeemed through the Exile. I suspect the reason there are those who view this as complicated is that people tend to see in the Force a metaphor unto something more conventional. In fact, the Force is not a metaphor at all. 00:53, December 12, 2011 (UTC) Kuest 7:52, December 11, 2011

Double bladed lightsaber? impossibleEdit

I don't understand how Kreia used a double-bladed lightsaber during her adventures with the exile. Here are my reasons

1. It's impossible for Kreia to wield a double-bladed lightsaber after she loses her hand in the game

2. All concept art of her is shown with a single bladed green lightsaber, including the back of the game box (excluding sith concept art).

  • Please read the entire article and check the sources before making such changes. The source displaying Kreia with a double bladed lightsaber is clearly displayed on the page. Also please remember to sign your comments. JethLordMasterYing yang copy (Xia Order) 21:16, May 16, 2011 (UTC)
    • I'm not trying to get anybody angry or anything, but id like to add some more points to the previous argument.

3. The article says she used the double-bladed saber during her travels with the Exile, and the obvious point is that you need two hands to use a double-blade. But Kreia lost her left hand before any lightsaber is accessible to the party, excluding Sion's.

4. Next, although this is purely conjecture, Kreia is a Jedi consular during the Exile adventures. And it is an accepted fact that the Double blade is a guardian weapon. it just doesn't fit her style. Again, conjecture. --Dr.Mallard 00:37, November 27, 2011 (UTC)

  • All this is moot as there's source saying she used double-bladed saber. Perhaps, those points of yours could be turned to interesting Bts information if there's sources ad all, ofcourse. (: – Tm_T@Wookieepedia:~$ 19:39, November 27, 2011 (UTC)
She does lose her hand before her adventures with the Exile begin, so if this is an inconsistency between the game/canon, it should be noteworthy enough to be pointed out clearly. The decisions of a PC are one thing, but the hand is a scripted event regardless. Additionally, I just wanted to correct Dr.Mallard, but the double-bladed weapon is (in the TOR canon and movies) the weapon of a Jedi Consular and Sith Inquisitor (Maul in the movies, Assassin and Shadow specialisations in SWTOR). I've never seen a source suggest it's a guardian weapon, nor would I think a staff is a very Guardian-esque weapon in general (as it requires dexterity and finesse more than strength and endurance). LordSchmee (talk) 13:59, January 31, 2015 (UTC)

Darth TrayaEdit

Hate to drag this up again, but The Old Republic: Revan clarifies that she officially took the name "Darth Traya" and is remembered by the galaxy at large as such. Just providing a short heads-up before I make the move. Darth Trayus(Trayus Academy) 07:48, November 17, 2011 (UTC)

I haven't contributed to this wiki in forever, but I was a supporter of the name change way back when. Well done. Max (Let's Talk This Out) 05:00, November 28, 2011 (UTC)

Well, there's certainly a lot of assumption going on here! Firstly, how exactly are we to believe that Kreia "betrayed" the Exile by killing the masters? Unless saving the Exile from being forcefully cut off from the force (which would ultimately comdemn the galaxy to death at the hands of Darth Nihilus as the Exile alone could defeat him) is a "betrayal..."

Furthermore, Kreia did *not* convince Atris to fall to the dark side - Atris had already fallen due to her unresolved feelings about the Exile and the Sith holocrons she had collected.

Could someone please fix this accordingly?--71.237.90.48 04:02, December 15, 2011 (UTC)

I agree, the article itself is full of statements which are mere speculations. Even if remember as Darth Traya by most, she was neither Jedi nor Sith at the end of the game, even if she took the Mantle of Dark Lady again - it was just another part of her scheme. Also, she did not betray the Exile by killing the masters, nor did she orchestrate the First Jedi Purge willingly like it is stated in the article. DraculaCronqvist (talk) 02:42, December 11, 2012 (UTC)

  • I disagree with this name change. Anakin Skywalker is remembered by the galaxy at large as Darth Vader, yet his name in Wookieepedia is Anakin Skywalker. I believe for the same reason that this article should be named "Kreia," not Darth Traya.--Richterbelmont10 (come in R2!) 16:53, August 4, 2013 (UTC)
I agree with the above poster - this is a factual "encyclopedia" of the Star Wars universe, and encyclopedias use a person's name. Also, Kreia WAS not a Sith, nor a Jedi, and that's the interesting part of her character. Additionally, this is incredibly spoilery for people that stumble upon the page by accident or curiousity (perhaps they just met her and merely want to look up her age or something similar). Although really, I think wikis should have dual-tab pages for spoiler information. I think that'd be a lot more practical. LordSchmee (talk) 18:50, January 28, 2015 (UTC)
Just figured I'd check back again and ask if this'll ever be answered, since there've been huge gaps in the length of time between the above posters but absolutely no moderator input (which is very unusual). I would like to add additionally that one of the above posters' comments is very important - she was not a Sith Lady during the end-game, therefore while she used her old alias "Darth Traya", she was not actually a Darth as the title is used. Additionally, the majority of her appearance is as Kreia, not Darth Traya, so using the Sith-variant of her appearance as the image is rather inappropriate. It'd be like having a separate page for Darth Vader and using his appearance from Episode III, or using Ben Kenobi's image as Obi Wan's main picture, despite him appearing most in his older Ewan McGregor variant (2 movies) as opposed to Alec or Younger Ewan.
(Edit: I just saw that we DO actually use Ben's image for Obi-Wan, which seems rather inappropriate, but at least it isn't massively spoiler-y unlike this one). LordSchmee (talk) 12:09, January 30, 2015 (UTC)
Would like to remind the mods that we really should rename this article- a clear consensus has been reached, and it is long overdue that this article be renamed and the page image changed. Zeible (talk)

AgeEdit

I believe I have created a compromise with those who feel she was born in 4001 BBY by moving that information to the behind the scenes section of the article. My reason for doing this was because, even though Chris Avellone is indeed one of the people who developed KOTOR II, the given age in the forum is from a casting doc that was sent to LucasArts. --Mattjorgdbb (talk) 09:00, November 29, 2013 (UTC)

It doesn't work given what we know about Revan's age. Unless she was in her mid-late teens or early twenties when she trained him. (depending on his Birth day and time he became a Padawan) We know that some Jedi get promoted young, but most don't, I believe. --Pauldarklord (talk) 12:27, May 25, 2017 (UTC)

Stripped of the force Edit

I apologize if this has been explained somewhere but do we really know that she was stripped of the force? I have recently been playing KOTOR 2 after years of not playing it due to broken console. I am only at nar shaddar (first planet) but I have already had her reveal her past as a sith lord. She states that they "stripped her of her power", but that doesn't necessarily mean she was stripped of the force, otherwise how did she regain it? I know that Ulic Qel Droma is it? was never able to regain his connection to his force. I think it would take outside help to regain a connection to the force ( I do not know too much about the legends lore though) I took Kreia's words to mean she was simply stripped of her leadership and any power a ruler would have over the sith, I could be wrong since it is a long time, is there any instance in the game or elsewhere that states for certain that she was actually cut off from the force? 2A02:C7F:8A0D:FA00:2C7F:8356:B3DD:DDB9 17:22, February 24, 2019 (UTC)

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