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Since there seems to be a consensus on the talk page of Moff that Grand Moff deserves its own article, I'll tag this with {{Expand}} rather than {{Delete}}. Havac 05:55, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm adding my own contributions to this as a start.Charlemagne19

Does this really need to be more than a redirect page? See my thoughts at Talk:Moff#Splitting_article. It's largely a duplication of material on the Moff page.

However, I know that it's Charles's baby, and if he wants to keep it, I'll understand....

But I do have some questions/curiosities about the some sections of the article, too:

  • ... locations that were of special interest to the Emperor.
A nice turn of phrase, but what's the source for it...?
Um... source? It seems that Ruling Council membership is senior to the Grand Moffs, and Supreme Fleet Commander may be seperate from Military Executor... and I'm not sure about the exact balance of rank between Grand Moff and Grand Admiral.
  • The rank suffered some loss of prestige when Grand Moff Trachta joined with others in an attempted coup de'tat against the Emperor.
"Loss of prestige"? Is there any explicit source for this?
  • The position would be revived in the Legacy era with the Council of Moffs replaced by the Council of Grand Moffs. Presumably, this is the result of Imperial expansion.
Are they ever called Grand Moffs? Interesting, if so....
  • Due to events of Revenge of the Sith, Grand Moff Tarkin's promotion must have taken place during or perhaps even before the events of the film.
Not necessarily in public, though. Also, Tarkin wears a different rank insignia in the movie than the one he wears as a Moff in other RotS-related material (including the production-photo portrait!); possibly Grand Moff, but perhaps a senior Admiral....
  • Moff Jerjerrod was originally meant to be a Grand Moff but accident of costume design resulted in his demotion.
Is there any actual evidence for this "accident of costume design" outside unsubstantiated statements at the Star Wars Technical Commentaries? Even if so, is there evidence that Jerjerrod's move from Grand Moff in earlier drafts was post facto due to something like this...?

Thanks. Sorry if that seems like a lot of questions; if these comments are backed up by explicit canon stuff, then I'm very interested to know about it!! --McEwok 11:40, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

I personally think that The Moffs page shouldn't have [any] Grand Moff information and the majority of that should be transferred to this page with a link. It'll overwhelm the information already here but it would be less confusing because the two ranks are very different. It's like Grand Admiral and Admiral being combined. I don't think it works.

  • I was actually just summarizing the fact that there's a Grand Moff of Coruscant alone (the demoted Grand Admiral), there's a Grand Moff of the entire Outer Rim, then there's poor Hissa with only the Kessel Sector. Plus, the Death Star is a Priority Sector itself. (corrected)
  • The Ruling Council doesn't appoint Grand Moffs or have any authority over them. Only Emperor Palpatine does. The RC have higher rank than MOFFS and can appoint them but Grand Moffs report directly to the Emperor (See Imperial Sourcebook)
  • It's just a way of coloring up the sentence that Grand Moffs had traitors amongst them, same with the Grand Admirals lost some prestige with Zaarin's defection. (corrected)
  • Yes, they are explicitly called Grand Moffs in Legacy 0#
  • He's put in charge of the Death Star project in The Tarkin Doctrine response by Ars Dangor and the Death Star is partially completed there. That would mean that he was probably promoted before though
  • I just got it directly from the Moff page friend.

I also think Tavira should be removed from the Grand Moff ranks unless someone can tell me where he's called one. I've also added the Grand Moff Ravik picture from the Moff page since I think that fits more appropriately here. .Charlemagne19

Umm...

  • I personally think that The Moffs page shouldn't have [any] Grand Moff information and the majority of that should be transferred to this page with a link. It'll overwhelm the information already here but it would be less confusing because the two ranks are very different. It's like Grand Admiral and Admiral being combined. I don't think it works.
I fundamentally disagree on this. The two ranks are very much bound up together. Grand Moffs are just more powerful Moffs, and they do the same things for the most part—some just have bigger sectors and more soldiers and ships. That's a lot of the reason I kept 'em together when I rewrote the article... now, okay, I am biased, because a lot of Moff is my work, but while I do concede the validity of the Grand Moff page, I think that eviscerating the Moff page in the way you suggest is slightly silly, and rather impractical.
  • I was actually just summarizing the fact that there's a Grand Moff of Coruscant alone (the demoted Grand Admiral), there's a Grand Moff of the entire Outer Rim, then there's poor Hissa with only the Kessel Sector. Plus, the Death Star is a Priority Sector itself. (corrected)
Okay. And, good point on the Death Star—I saw that recently; what's the source, again?
  • It's just a way of coloring up the sentence that Grand Moffs had traitors amongst them, same with the Grand Admirals lost some prestige with Zaarin's defection. (corrected)
False colour, IMHO. But corrected, so okay.
  • Yes, they are explicitly called Grand Moffs in Legacy 0#
Where? I've looked, and I can see plently of references to "Moffs", but none to "Grand Moffs"; what am I missing?
  • He's put in charge of the Death Star project in The Tarkin Doctrine response by Ars Dangor and the Death Star is partially completed there. That would mean that he was probably promoted before though
However, he's still just a Moff in Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader. It's tricky, but there's more than one way to make sense of it.
  • I just got it directly from the Moff page friend.
Um, did you misread it? Moff Jerjerrod's insignia is widely believed to have been the result of a costume-department mistake during the filming of Return of the Jedi, but there appears to be no reliable source for this story, and it may have originated as nothing more than a fan theory to explain a perceived problem.

And from the page:

  • While Imperial Advisors could appoint Moffs, only the Emperor himself could appoint Grand Moffs.
Check Tarkin's appointment papers: signed by Ars Dangor...

No worries, though. We can fix this. --McEwok 23:12, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

    • Nothing needs fixed on the Ars Dangor bit since it's addressed in the Imperial sourcebook. Ars Dangor was acting for the Emperor. The Grand Moffs do not answer to the Ruling Council. It's also in the pie chart in the Imperial Sourcebook where we see the Grand Moffs answering only to the Emperor. I thought I explicitly mentioned that curiosity in the article(Charlemagne19 00:38, 31 October 2006 (UTC))
      • Erm, he was acting for the Emperor in the same way as all Imperial officials act on behalf of the Emperor. They do not exercise authority in their own right, but they exist solely at the pleasure of HIM the Emperor. Ars Dangor, who was known to be very devoted to the Emperor, made that known in all his correspondence. Recall, though, that if one is going to list Lord Vader and Grand Vizier Pestage as superior to Grand Moffs then Ars Dangor (if not specifically members of the Ruling Council) should be added as well. There seems to be an undue focus on titulature and "ranks" (which don't apply outside of the military, the proper term is office). Many of these positions depend [i]not[/i] on their title, but rather on their proximity to the Emperor. The individuals are not given prestige by their titles but rather the titles are given prestige by those who hold it. Lord Vader is not second in the Empire because he's Supreme Commander or Executor, but because he's Lord Vader. The same holds true of Pestage and Dangor. --GrandAdmiralJello 10:36, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

1. I see the Grand Moffs as one of the most important positions in the Empire with their role as regional governors being one of the largest in the Trilogy. Moffs are only glorified Governors while the Grand Moffs are essentially part the inner circle of the Emperor. While I can understand your feelings, I don't think the article does anything but confuse the issue by having information related to Grand Moffs.

2. I think that it was mentioned in the Death Star Technical Commentary first. It's an obscure detail that I'm hoping is actually accurate. The fact Jerriod was originally meant to be a Grand Moff according to Annotated Screenplays seems to bear this up though.

3. Hmmm. I'll ask Jon Ostrander directly then and get back to you on this. If I'm wrong, I'll correct it.

4. http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Jerjerrod Read it for yourself dude.

New header for ease of editingEdit

  • The Grand Moffs do not answer to the Ruling Council.

You do raise an interesting thought here. The ISB does suggest that Grand Moffs don't answer to the Advisors in the same way Moffs do, and this would also explain the way some Grand Moffs behave after Endor, ignoring the Cabal. However, I don't think the siuation is completely clear-cut: Dangor's communique shows the role an Advisor could play in practice in this situation—the question of how much initiative Palpatine delegates to him is left deliberately ambiguous.

And which "pie chart" do you mean, though? I think I'm missing something.

1. Tarkin, an individual Grand Moff, is definately important. Jerjerrod, though, is a "mere" Moff. Do you have any proof—beyond the ISB stuff just discussed—for the Grand Moffs being in the "inner circle", either?

2. I just found the "Death Star Project" as a priority sector in the same "Grand Moff" section in the ISB we were just discussing, so that's good; however, while Jerjerrod was a Grand Moff (based at the Galactic capital) in early RotJ drafts, he is canonically just a Moff.

3. Thanks. I remember asking Jan or John about this in the Legacy #1 chat...

4. Gah. Corrected the page. I thought you meant Moff, not Jerjerrod... :-p --McEwok 03:06, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

QUOTE (McEwok @ A prior time)

And which "pie chart" do you mean, though? I think I'm missing something.

He meant "flow chart". I've seen it hovering hereabouts; I'll try to track down a pic, but I'm sure you know what I'm talking about. Havac 04:49, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

  • 1. Well G-canonically, we have Grand Moff Tarkins "The Regional Governors now have direct control over their territories" with the behavior of Tarkin being to treat even Vader on a personal level. This is understandable given the fact that Grand Moff Tarkin seems the most powerful GM by far. But the DSB sourcebook also implies the Moffs were able to defy the Ruling Council post Endor.

My solution is to add this line "In theory, the Imperial Advisory members were more prestigious than the Grand Moffs and closer to the Imperial seat of power on Coruscant. Their direct access to the Emperor gave them less practical power than Grand Moffs whom often wielded supreme authority over their territories in a manner that brooked little opposition. This is demonstrated by the Grand Moffs role in the Imperial Mutiny." and I just meant the chart that shows the ranking of the various functions of the Empire. The ISB contains one that shows the Grand Moffs answer directly to the Emperor unlike most. Its not a "pie chart." 2. Noted on the Death Star business. I seem to recall the DSTC says Palpatine chose Jerr because he was less ambitious. 3. Still waiting for answer. 4. Thanks.-(Charlemagne19 04:45, 31 October 2006 (UTC))

  • This chart has the Grand Moffs in with the Moffs and reporting through the Advisors with no direct link whatsoever to the Emperor. Havac 04:52, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

-Huh, I could have sworn there was another one floating around. Well, then my suggested addition is even more appropriate.(Charlemagne19 06:08, 31 October 2006 (UTC))


1.) "Regional governors"=Moffs, not Grand Moffs. Numbers of Moffs and Grand Moffs broke with the Council after Coruscant, and I thought the Moffs and Grand Moffs acted together in the Mutiny. The CCGM isn't the whole lot—some, like Wilkadon and Gann, seem to have remained loyalist; what happens to others, like Tanniel, Lynch, Selit and Traeda, are unknown.
2.) Thanks.
3.) Ditto!
4.) And thank you, too.
I'm not quite sure where this leaves the discussion, though...? --McEwok 00:27, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

What should be addedEdit

A question I'd like to personally ask. -Charlemagne19

VaderEdit

are grand moffs superior to vader? MoffRebus 22:57, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

No. Though Vader's rank is always pretty off and on.

He mostly seemed to respond to Tarkin's order as a favor.

Grand Moff Tarkin was given by the Emperor limited authority over Lord Vader, though, Lucas has stated that Tarkin and the Sith Lord should be treated as having equal footing. A more accurate discussion in accordance with the films of their positions in the chain of command in the Galactic Empire is presented on the Grand Moff Tarkin article of Wikipedia. --Shon Kon Ray 21:49, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
In the films, Lord Vader does not have an official position in the Galactic Empire, but is rather a free agent of the Empire charged with being the Emperor's de facto chief enforcer. He does have an official title (that of Dark Lord of the Sith) in the Sith Order, however. --Shon Kon Ray 21:58, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for notifying me, very kind of you. My question was based on an early draft of ROTJ, where Vader bows before 'grand moff' Jerjerrod. Of course this is not canon, but perhaps it could have some truth since it was written after ANH. BTW have in mind that things in military are so strict that everything must be 'translated' in ranks, in order to work. Vader could not work if he was rank free. Who could he order? Was he ordered by anyone? and by what ranks? MoffRebus 22:50, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Grand Moff, highest rank in Imperial Navy?Edit

According to "Star Wars: The Ultimate Visual Guide" by Ryder Windham, the highest rank in the Imperial Navy was that of Grand Moff. Further, there is no mention that a Grand Moff was a Regional Governor of an Oversector in the reference aforementioned. How can these incongruences be accounted for? Perhaps, the book is based on the classic trilogy films in this respect. --Shon Kon Ray 03:38, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

  • And Grand Admirals are what, Cheerios without honey? Because the Imperial chain-of-command is confusing at best, especially in different military and civilian branches, you could conceivably compare the Grand Moff vs. X-Imperial position to a modern-day Secretary of Defense or Minister of Defense/War vs. X-military position. Consider that Palpatine gave direct control to "regional governors" after disbanding the Senate. That enabled him to be an even more focal point at the top of a tower made from a deck of cards, with an Imperial leadership base consisting of ambitious, greedy, brilliant, and/or totally inept individuals to "govern" portions/regions of his empire. I would interpret "the highest rank in the Imperial Navy" merely in that a Grand Moff typically possessed such a massive amount of territory control that yes, all military officers and civilian rank would answer to said Grand Moff. The exception, in my mind, would be an individual with Palpatine's directive, such as Darth Vader or an Emperor's Hand. "Tactical brilliance" in the military arena certainly isn't a deciding factor in any rank of Palpatine's Empire, heh. Ultimately, the point is moot, because Palpatine built his Empire on that deck of cards... after Endor, the Imperial Remnant fed on itself, and failed to grow a new serpent's head, and eventually collapsed into a tiny fraction of its former strength (prior to Legacy). Thrawn came closest simply because of military success and subsequently military might, backing him, not necessarily any Imperial "rank." I still like the title of Grand Admiral the most though... JoelBray 08:23, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

List of Grand Moff'sEdit

I'm going to change the titles of the Grand Moff's that appear in the 3 lists (Great Galactic War, Galactic Civil War and Legacy Era as)

  • 1. Grand Moff Odile Vaiken of the Sith Empire died long before the Great Galactic War meaning that he would needlessly require a new list.
  • 2. 'Legacy Era' is a publishing era so surely its 'out of universe'.
  • 3. Having them listed by war (and era) might suggest that they all belong/ed to the Same empire at a different point in time.

I'm going to change them to list the three governments they belonged to. Alexsau1991 (talk page) StupidSithEmblem-Traced-TORkit 20:42, December 11, 2010 (UTC)

Grand Moff by Region not AlphaEdit

Need a way to organize the Greater and Lesser Grand Moffs. To differentiate between those that came after Tarkin, and those assigned to minor sectors. --Basique 22:52, December 13, 2010 (UTC)

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