Talk: Malachor V

Orders ?

Was it Revan who ordered to use the MSG? I thought it was the Exile who was responsible - and this is directly tied to him being cut off the Force. - Sikon 08:03, 5 Jul 2005 (UTC)

Yes, it was definitely the Exile who gave the order, and I'm pretty sure it was Bao-Dur who actually activated the mass shadow generator. Remember the conversation in KOTOR2 when Bao tells the Exile about his nightmares of Malachor? He mentions the Exile giving him the order to activate it, doesn't he?

Should the dark-side ending be mentioned in the Malachor articles? If the Exile goes Sith, he doesn't destroy the planet. 141.152.46.70 23:06, 5 Jan 2006 (UTC)

• Yes of course, every KOTOR-article has a ==Behind the scenes== section where the alternate scenarios are described. Feel free to add what you know. MoffRebus 23:29, 5 Jan 2006 (UTC)

Is there any reason that Revan, a Sith Lord, chose Malachor V, a Sith world, to be destroyed? There were plenty of other worlds that the Mass Shadow Generator could be used on. It just seems odd that he devastated Malachor, destroying countless Sith relics, while carefully excavating the Sith ruins on Korriban, another Sith world.

True Sith

• I've removed LetoII's additions about the "True Sith", since there's no canon basis for identifying them as anything other than the Sith Empire of Ragnos, Sadow et al. QuentinGeorge 02:50, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

• Though no offense meant, but I too have played the game multiple times, and the "True Sith" are established as (A) having constructed the Trayus Academy on Malachor V, and (B) having done so "tens of millennia ago," per the loading-screen "factoids" and in-game dialogue (Kreia, et al). However, like most people with a reasonably healthy work and social life outside of SW, I personally haven't transcribed the vast lion's share of convos from the game, but have taken rather extensive notes covering these subjects during the course of several playthroughs.

The qualitative difference between a game being considered a "primary LFL source" and a novel or comic book is -- obviously -- that one cannot often simply queue up a level or scenario or character conversation on a moment's notice for review.

The facts from the game are thus:

1. Malachor V was once occupied tens of thousands of years ago by another, older order of the Sith. Kreia refers to them as "the True Sith" on multiple occasions throughout the latter phases of the game. Malachor is located right at the edge of the Unknown Regions, per The New Essential Chonology and the game's dialogue.
2. Said Sith, whoever they were, then retreated back into the Unknown Regions at some undocumented point during the "interregnum" prior to the events of KotOR II.
3. The First Sith Empire is founded in the year 6,900 BBY, following the Hundred-Year Darkness by renegade Dark Jedi, who discover the planet Korriban and adjacent space. The empire comes nowhere near the Unknown Regions in territorial proximity, and lies far distant from Malachor V itself.

Clearly, then, this order of Sith cannot be related in any way, shape, or form to the later Sith Order of Marka Ragnos and Ludo Kressh, as the game carefully delineates. Kreia takes very specific pains to differentiate between the Sith Order as it existed during the past 2,949 years, and the "True Sith," who are many, many times older. We do not know much else beyond these very specific pieces of data, including the extent of their empire, but their construction of the Trayus Academy is unequivocally established in the game.

Again, absolutely no personal offense meant, here, but why these facts are consistently ignored by a couple of folks -- when they're presented right there in plain sight during the game, exact dating-locks and all -- is profoundly puzzling. Elsewhere on message boards across the Internet, you see clear and reasonably in-depth discussion over the "True Sith" and their role in the greater KotOR story. Their very existence presents several new wrinkles to the history of the Sith, but they are wrinkles that nonetheless must be acknowledged and addressed. --The Bandsaw Vigilante

• The unknown regions were far larger during this time period, so your thinking is heavily flawed. Before and during the Great Hyperspace War, the Sith Empire was deep within the unknown regions...--Sentry 06:46, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Your evidence for this? Nowhere has it ever been mentioned that the Old Sith Empire lay within the same "unknown regions" (lowercase spelling) as the "Unknown Regions" that Rakata Prime and Malachor border. Totally different ends of the galaxy. -- The Bandsaw Vigilante 13 September 2006 (UTC)

• It is explicitly mentioned that these Sith were not related to the so-called "True Sith," and that the retreat of the "True Sith" into the Unknown Regions occurred long before the Great Hyperspace War. --The Bandsaw Vigilante
• Evidence? I am quite certain that no such statement is ever made. --Sentry 06:46, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
  • You still haven't answered this question.–Sentry^Talk 19:15, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Kreia's exact dialogue from the game:

Exile: And Bao-Dur -- and the droids?

Kreia: Their paths are unknown to me. Even the small one -- who waits for you outside this place -- I sense it has one last journey for you. You must go where Revan did, into the Unknown Regions, where the Sith, the True Sith, wait in the dark for the great war that comes.

Exile: And Revan? He came here, was here. What happened to him?

Kreia: It is because he remembered what lay buried here -- this place, its teachings. It paved the way to Korriban, the remnants here. And he came because Malachor, like Korriban, lies on the fringes of the ancient Sith Empire, where the True Sith wait for us, in the dark.

Exile: But we've fought the Sith.

Kreia: Have we? You thought that the corrupted remnants of the Republic, the machines spawned by technology that Revan led into battle were the Sith? You are wrong. The Sith is a belief. And its empire, the True Sith Empire, rules elsewhere. And Revan knew that the true war is not against the Republic. It waits for us beyond the Outer Rim. And he has gone to fight it, in his own way. He left the Ebon Hawk and its machine behind, for he knew he would not need them. And, like you, he knew he must leave all loves behind as well, no matter how deeply one cares for them.

Therefore, the True Sith lie within the Unknown Regions, beyond the Outer Rim -- not on Korriban's side of the galaxy. -- The Bandsaw Vigilante 13 September 2006 (UTC)

• Yes, so what? That honestly doesn't matter.–Sentry^Talk 19:15, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

• I am afraid that it is you The Bandsaw Vigilante that are wrong here. Little or nothing is known about Obsidian entertainment's mysterious (some would say idiotic) "True Sith", but the loading screens clearly state that malachor V was part of the old sith empire. With all due respect, almost all your conclusions stated above are based on incomplete or corrupted data. I would suggest that you read the Chronicles of the Old Republic as well as the Jedi Civil War article before you make any more fanon conjectural changes to this and other similar articles...--Sentry 06:46, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Sorry, but you're incorrect -- you seemed to have missed a few key passages of text from the game. The so-called "incompleteness" phenomenon that affected many other parts of the game isn't a factor here. The game designers had a specific plan in mind for differentiating between the "True Sith" and the Old Sith Empire the way they did, and the dates in the game bear this own...to say nothing of the galactiospatial placement of the Old Empire vis-a-vis the Unknown Regions (more on this down below). And citing the Chronicles of the Old Republic as a source is discontinuitous, as it has since been largely discredited as an error-riddled source of hard historical "fact." (By the way -- to take the Wookieepedia "Jedi Civil War" article as an official, legitimate source of data is to be guilty of the very same fanonical conjecturation you accuse others of perpetrating.) -- The Bandsaw Vigilante 13 September 2006 (UTC)
    • I never even attempted to refer to the Jedi Civil War article as an official, legitimate source of data. I simply recommended it because I wrote most of it and could therefore vouch for its accuracy. As for your statements about the Chronicles, I am afraid that you are incorrect. The article is inaccurate in places, but Leland Chee has explicitly referred to it as an official reference work on multiple occasions. Only fans have attempted to discredit the article as an error-riddled source of hard historical "fact."–Sentry^Talk 03:53, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

• I'd prefer all speculation about who the "True Sith" are removed from articles until any details are unveiled. For me, it seems that placing Malachor and Korriban on edges of the Old Sith Empire (as mentioned in KOTOR II) is sufficient to establish equivalence between them and the so-called "True Sith", especially considering that the term "true" is used against Revan and Malak's converts (who, in Kreia's opinion, were "false Sith"). But as there is controversy, no opinion should be enforced. - Sikon [Talk] 08:47, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
• If you look at any SW atlas, however, you'll see that Rakata Prime and Malachor V are nowhere near the Old Sith Empire -- they're on the completely opposite side of the galaxy, as a matter of fact. The game is very clear and careful on this point, as they were retconning some of Canderous's dialogue from the first game to create a new enemy, albeit one derived from a pre-existing foe. That said, bear in mind the precise phraseology Kreia uses in the game:

"And he came because Malachor, like Korriban, lies on the fringes of the ancient Sith Empire, where the True Sith wait for us, in the dark."

The key here is to remember that nowhere does Kreia state "the Old Sith Empire," which didn't become an historical term until centuries later -- she uses the phrase "the ancient Sith Empire," which connotes a completely different group as much as it might also suggest the Marka Ragnos empire of 6,900 BBY. Moreso, in fact, considering that the KotOR era is itself now considered the "ancient" epoch of Star Wars history, with Kreia suddenly referring to the True Sith themselves as being "ancient." The entire historical Sith paradigm now shifts drastically when we take this new data into consideration.

• This is pure speculation. Now you are deriving some meaning from the phrases 'Old Sith Empire' as opposed to 'ancient' Sith Empire?–Sentry^Talk 19:15, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Just out of curiosity, how could both Malachor V and Korriban both be on the fringes of the Sith Empire if they are on opposite sides of the galaxy? –Sentry^Talk 03:53, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

And then you have to take into account the other dialogue, which then completely and totally destroys any notion that the the Trayus Academy was ever constructed by anyone remotely connected to the Old Empire. The notion is laid waste utterly. At best, there is the strong implication that the True Sith were related to the ancient Korriban race -- which isn't at all ruled out by Abel Peña's article, it should be noted -- and you now have a tenuous connection between the two groups, but a connection nonetheless.

• Please produce the incredible, groudbreaking quotes please.–Sentry^Talk 19:15, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Me personally? I have no stake in how this whole thing eventually shakes out, one way or the other. If LFL wants to take it in the other direction (not likely, given what I've heard from someone deeply involved in KotOR III 's development), that's fine, and the official histories would be adjusted accordingly.

I simply go by the evidence, however, like any historian worth his or her salt -- and the evidence succinctly dictates beyond all reasonable doubt an unimpeachable demarcation between the True Sith order, and the Old Sith Empire of later millennia.

• I disagree, which is the root of the problem. You continually change the article even though everyone who has commented on you ideas on this talk page (and a majority of those who commented on Wookieepedia:Votes for deletion/True Sith page) flatly disagree with you.–Sentry^Talk 19:15, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Now, having considered this, might I suggest a compromise in the article text? Perhaps a slight revision to the topmost entry dealing with the True Sith, mentioning some of the ambiguity surrounding their connection with the Sith species of Korriban, and some further bridging data? It seems to be the best way to go in this case, but neither can the True Sith simply be thrown to the winds. Reconciling the two without venturing into fanonicity might be the best way to keep everyone happy, while giving the True Sith their proper due. I agree with Sikon that hard data on them are rather sparse at the moment, but we'll be waiting a while yet for more information on them, and what official tidbits already we have add fascinating texture and flavor to the Sith's history. Thoughts? -- The Bandsaw Vigilante 13 September 2006 (UTC)

• Feel free to add information to the 'Behind the scenes' section. I am tired of arguing about this issue, but I suggest that you actually do a little not-KOTOR research into the Sith Empire and the extent of the Unknown Regions during this time period before you make any changes. I already made my case above and over at Talk:True Sith. It seems to me that you are intent on basing you case on your personal interpretation of dialog from the games mixed with a spattering of minor inconsistencies that most of us consider game mechanics isssues. Lastly, you seem to be basing a lot of your thinking on the galaxy maps presented in the KOTOR games. Please remember that the map of the galaxy presented in the KOTOR series in by no means intended to be accurate and the creators have stated so on more than one occasion.–Sentry^Talk 21:44, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Pardon me for saying this -- and no insult is intended, of course -- but if you were a TF.N Lit Forum poster (and you might be under another name; I have no way of knowing), you'd know who I am, and of the amount of awareness I possess on the ancient Sith Order. Not to boast, but I'm generally regarded as one of the "experts" on the subject -- not only over there, but on Usenet and elsewhere -- an area of speciality that I've spent the nearly the last decade-and-a-half honing. (Though I suppose one can't get all puffed up and consider such things truly "important" in the grand scheme of existence.) Suffice to say, I'm more than confident in my knowledge of the antique Sith -- folks like QuentinGeorge and Kuralyov will readily testify to this -- and of the historiographical subtleties and delicateness involved in taking all major and minor sources into account.

To wit, it's scarcely a matter of "personal interpretation" to post the exact dialogue from games, and then take it literally at face value. To do otherwise would be to do as you imply -- to introduce "personal" vaguaries and skewed takes upon the primary source material. This I have not done. All I dare to suggest is that one takes the dialogue exactly as the designers intended. That we have some faith in the notion that they are in fact the truthful and correct versions of events, precisely as LFL wishes. Furthermore, nowhere in the game is it ever stated outright that the empire of Naga Sadow and Ludo Kressh had so much as a single hand in the construction of the Trayus Academy -- indeed, its very age prevents this from ever having occurred.

• The problem is not that you are taking quotes from the game. The problem is that you are taking vague statements from the game and producing broad and far-fetched theories to explain them and then marketing your creation as approved canon.–Sentry^Talk 19:15, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Additionally, I should rightly point out here that I'm basing my cartographical observations strictly from sources like the NEC map -- which puts Malachor V and Rakata Prime very far away from the Old Empire, which is entirely simpatico with the purposes of the LFL writers and editors. I agree wholeheartedly that the KotOR game-maps aren't reliable in the least with regard to accurately gauging spatial-placements and the like. (As a matter of fact, I involved myself in a fairly large-scale TF.N thread around year-and-a-half or so back which debunked it.) Which shouldn't present the impression that I don't appreciate the fact that this is (finally) such a popular subject that virtually everyone has an opinion on it in one form or another, and I sincerely enjoy the back-and-forth discussions on the issue. All I'm really saying is that there are several factors which must be accounted for and incorporated into the larger picture, lest we one day find ourselves at a critical remove from the "true" events due to omission. -- The Bandsaw Vigilante 13 September 2006 (UTC)

• Okay, now you are getting on my nerves. I, Kuralyov, QuentinGeorge, and Sikon all disagree with you. All three of them are admins. Give it a rest, buddy.–Sentry^Talk 22:49, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Excuse me? I beg your pardon? This was settled months ago -- kindly review the article-history revision records. You are the one blithely inserting fanonical interpretation into the mix, not me. From what I'm looking at right now, you were the one who reverted the entry back long after the matter was conclusively resolved. Please show me where minds were supposedly "changed" since you stepped in and started facetiously injecting your personal spin on everything. You wanna talk about "consensus"? If it's mentioned in the game, it gets put into the article proper. I can't wrap my mind around the fact that you're even believing half of what you're claiming. If you'd done any sort of proper notetaking at all when you played the game, you'd have a better grasp of the actual evidence.

• These sort of comments are so far out of line that I will not bother addressing them. If you cannot make your point through weight of evidence, do not try to make it through bullying.–Sentry^Talk 19:15, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I provide evidence to back up my writings -- you, to date, have not.

Show me one concrete shard of hard proof -- exact dialogue, anything -- directly and irrefutably linking the True Sith to Naga Sadow's group beyond a shadow of a reasonable doubt, and I'll concede. Trouble is, it doesn't exist. I placed this revision in as a compromise sop to folks like you, and what you're proposing is to throw out entire chunks of official LFL continuity wholesale. Where I come from, that dog don't hunt. -- The Bandsaw Vigilante 13 September 2006 (UTC)

---

As an encyclopedia, this wiki documents established fact. You must provide irrefutable sources for the information that you add to an article. You simply have not done that. So little is currently known about the True Sith (and what we know from Kreia has not been verified by any other source) that it would be quite impossible to provide sources for your contributions.

• Er, no. Wiki articles are not "established fact," as anyone in the academic world will tell you. A Wiki is a second-hand borrowing of fact, and occasionally even third-hand. You happen to see any articles in here directly written by sanctioned LFL personnel, and authorized as canon? There's a very good reason why the vast majority of college professors do not allow Wikipedia articles to be used as primary sources in research-based pieces -- including my own wife. Any claims to the contrary are academically disingenuous, and to state that a Wiki article is an incorruptible document crosses over into outright intellectual dishonesty. When such entries can be tweaked by those with an agenda, the entire affair becomes tainted. As a secondary source, absolutely...but one also subject to third-party vetting, as in this case.
  • This encyclopedia attempts to document established Star Wars canon. Whether or not we are succeeding in that venture is another topic entirely. Senconly, what academia thinks about wikis is so entirely besides the point that I have trouble understanding why you even brought it up.–Sentry^Talk 19:15, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

When the very establishing dialogue from the game is suddenly and arbitrarily declared a "non-source" by one single user, one has to start questioning the actual credibility Wookieepedia as a whole. -- The Bandsaw Vigilante 13 September 2006 (UTC)

• I have never and will never declare such dialog "non-source". I am simply saying that we do not have enough evidence to speculate about the true meaning of the dialog in question.–Sentry^Talk 19:15, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

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As I stated on Talk:True Sith:

Where are statements like this: "According to Kreia, the so-called "True Sith" were millennia older than the Old Sith Empire" coming from? Are people just writing this stuff because Kreia said that the 'True Sith' were "tens of thousands" of years old? It should be noted that Kreia also said that the Mandalorian Wars began "little less than a decade" before the events of KOTOR2 which took place in 3951 BBY. In fact, the mandalorian wars began sometime between 3976 BBY and 3963 BBY. Soooo, obviously the old hag is none too good with dates. Or more accurately, Obsidian did not do their research properly. The "True Sith", logically, could not have come before the Sith Empire for the simple reason that the term "Sith" did not come to be generally synonymous with a unified sect of "dark side users" until the exiled dark Jedi conquered the Sith species in 7000 BBY. Before that time period, canonical sources implied that the Sith were a primitive, if highly Force sensitive, species that dabbled in what they called 'sorcery' or 'magic'.

Kreia is the sole source for the supposed 'True Sith' and she has hardly proved to be reliable in the past. Her statements are so vague that it is impossible to infer anything concrete and verifiable from them; a single scheming character's rantings hardly provides a good foundation for your theories. As such, trying to form broad and far-reaching conclusions based on her statemts is speculation and speculation is not allowed on this wiki. It is considered a form of fanon.

• You're employing a logical fallacy here, I'm afraid. The game clearly states that the True Sith are orders of magnitude older than the Old Sith Empire, yet you're suggesting that an out-of-universe reason for one dating inconsistency (Kreia purportedly being off by a couple of years on the Mandalorian War date) connotes still another, different one...in this case, the True Sith dating-fix; neither of which logically have anything to do with the other. Different situations, different subjects. Tens of millennia versus perhaps a decade or so. Statistically insignificant, as any mathematician will tell you, and it's also far easier to be correct about vast aeons of time than it is to nail down dates within even a year or two. (As John Jackson Miller will undoubtedly attest.)
  • You seem to be entirely ignoring the very real possiblility that the continuity error we are discussing has come about only because Obsidian Entertainment did not do their research and so made a mistake.–Sentry^Talk 19:15, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

• Incorrect on that last point — it's since been mentioned on the Obsidian boards by a number of the designers that the intention was, indeed, to create a totally different Sith Order from the Marka Ragnos one, one which was substantially older, and which was (paraphrased from their words, but fairly close) "a greater threat to the galaxy and Jedi" than the First Sith Empire. Obviously, I don't have the exact threads bookmarked or possess the direct quotations in hand (this was in eary 2005-ish), but that was the gist of the intended background, and the timeline was intentional from the very beginning. -- The Bandsaw Vigilante 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Furthermore, in case you haven't played the game in awhile, nowhere does Kreia ever give the True Sith dating -- it comes from the in-game loading-screen "factoids," and elsewhere. Kreia is not the "sole source" for information on the True Sith in the game. You need to refresh your memory on a few things, it would seem. -- The Bandsaw Vigilante 13 September 2006 (UTC)

---

Secondly, whether or not your theories prove to be correct in the future doesn't matter in the least. You stated the following above:

This was settled months ago

Really? When? From what I have seen, every single person who has posted their thoughts on this talk page has disagreed with you. If you think that you have the right to integrate your own pet theories and speculaton into this article and tell other users to refute them or else, you are sadly mistaken. As I said when I last reverted your edits, this site runs on consensus and you simply do not have it.

• Er, sorry? Had a look at the Talk: True Sith page lately? The one with the little banner spreadeagled across the top, proclaiming:

This article was nominated for deletion on 03:16, 14 May 2006. The result of the discussion was keep.

• I'm sorry what is your point exactly? If you bothered to read that VFD, you would see that many of the users flatly disagreed with you. In any case, thta VFD vote has nothing to do with this discussion. I agree that we should have a 'True Sith' article. They are a real entity. I have never disputed that. I only dispute your theory that they were somehow seperate from the Sith Empire which I personally find to be ridiculous and totally unsupported by the available evidence.–Sentry^Talk 19:15, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

And then have a gander at the actual [article history page], since you asked.

As you can tell, even those in disagreement (read: several of us) eventually reached an equitable and civilized consensus on the issue back in April; it wasn't until you poached the article the following month that it reverted, with you then declaring this solipsistic victory on supposed "consensus." However, personal belief does not evidence support, and unfortunately you have failed to provide even one direct piece of proof from the games that the Old Sith Empire and the True Sith so much as shared the same historical time period together. Where does Kreia or some other character state that Marka Ragnos or Ludo Kressh or anyone else associated with that particular empire ever had anything to do with the construction of the Trayus facility? Hm? Where? I'll tell you -- nowhere. Not one person to date has ever been named in direct correlation between the Old Sith Empire and the True Sith. No chain of custody, no oral histories, nothing.

• I'm sorry, but I see no equitable and civilized consensus. What I see is that you reverted QuentinGeorge's reversion of your edits in April. If that is what you call a consensus, then you may want to look up the meaning of the word:

Source: [1]
con‧sen‧sus  –noun, plural -sus‧es. 1. majority of opinion: The consensus of the group was that they should meet twice a month. 2. general agreement or concord; harmony.

–Sentry^Talk 19:15, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Your argument doesn't touch base with reality at any two contiguous points.

Venture over to TF.N at all? You'll find that you're in the distinct minority there on this subject, with most users going by the actual evidence presented in the game. Not fanonical wankery masquerading as "fact" simply because you've formulated some theory based on zero verifiable, quantifiable proof. -- The Bandsaw Vigilante 13 September 2006 (UTC)

• Once again, I see no purpose in even adressing the contents of this paragraph.–Sentry^Talk 19:15, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

---

Source: KotOR II website, [2]
Unbeknownst to the Jedi Order, DARTH REVAN has discovered numerous Sith artifacts and holocrons, all stored in great tomb-like cities buried beneath Malachor V's surface. As Revan plundered these tombs and relics, he fell deeper into the Dark Side. He learned of the location and the true nature of Korriban, he learned of the location of other Sith artifacts, and he learned how those strong in the light side of the Force could be seduced and made to see the strength inherent in the Sith teachings.
This work is copyrighted. The individual who uploaded this work asserts that this qualifies as fair use of the material under United States copyright law.

The presence of Sith holocrons is very clear evidence that the planet was part of the Sith Empire. According to Evil Never Dies: The Sith Dynasties, the Sith species learned how to make such holocrons from the Rakata. No other group has ever been known to make them. Secondly, the mention of Korriban strongly suggests that the planet was, at the very least, connected closely to the Sith Empire.

• Yes, and how, pray tell, does this connect the True Sith to Marka Ragnos's group in any way other than the location of Korriban? Hell, we knew from the very first game that both Malachor V and Rakata Prime were located near the Unknown Regions, and that there was a Rakatan star map located on Korriban. This isn't exactly new information you're giving us, here. There was clearly a connection between the various groups, which I in fact noted in the article before you ever posted this. So just what *is* this supposed "smoking gun" of yours which undisputably links the Old Sith Empire to the True Sith, person-to-person, apart from some vague circumstantial leanings?

Also, re: the Sith Holocrons --

You haven't yet proven your point with this, since Abel Peña's article does not mention one word about the Rakatans being the sole sentients in the galaxy in possession of holocron-construction technology. The exact passage:

Source: [3]/ SW Hyperspace website], [4]
Misshapen Force-sensitive beings, these Rakatan soldiers of the so-called Infinite Empire first attempted to lull King Adas into their confidence by teaching him how to record his essence into a pyramidal, magical device called a holocron.
This work is copyrighted. The individual who uploaded this work asserts that this qualifies as fair use of the material under United States copyright law.

That's it. Nothing else is mentioned as to whether or not the Rakata were or were not the exclusive purveyors of the technology. Your statement that "the planet [Malachor V] was part of the Sith Empire" solely due to "the presence of Sith Holocrons" is based on a very flimsy pretext, indeed. (I happen to be an attorney by practice, and I have to say that the arguments you're concocting and the material you're presenting would get you laughed right out of the courtroom if this were a trial.)

The burden of proof is upon you to support your claims in contravention of direct evidenciary citation. (And non-Wiki, to boot.)

Mine's been presented. Word-for-word, line-for-line. Where is yours? -- The Bandsaw Vigilante 13 September 2006 (UTC)

• I'm afraid that the burden of evidence is upon you. You have yet to produce these magical quotes from the game which you continually refer to. My point is very simple. Only one ancient Sith Empire exists in all the known Star Wars sources, but you have decided to create a new one in order to explain away the continuity errors in KotOR:TSL with little or no support from other sources. In academic circles, such thinking would never be acceptable and it is not acceptable here. You may produce evidence and present your theories about a brand new Sith Empire, but to act as though your conjectural hypothesis is irrefutabley supported by the available facts is just plain dishonest. It is a theory (and a popular theory at that) and as such it may be presented in the 'Behind the scenes' section, but to include it in the article proper is more than a bit premature.–Sentry^Talk 19:15, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

The quotations are provided above, and what you're saying -- that "[only] one ancient Sith Empire exists in all the known Star Wars sources -- doesn't stand, given the timeframe and the galactography involved. (More on that below.)

One thing to remember:

Regardless of whether one likes the "tens of thousands of years" figure and Unknown Regions placement or not, they are still bona fide, legitimate LFL canon, and must be considered as such until and unless someone like Abel puts out an article specifically retconning the UR True Sith's historical period and geographical location. There's simply no way around this. It must be given full faith and credit, or else we'll be violating our own precepts here. -- The Bandsaw Vigilante 16 September 2006 (UTC)

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Lastly, please don't even bother to question my credentials. Please take a look at our civility policy because your comments are now verging on personal attacks. I wrote the Mandalorian Wars, Jedi Civil War, Rakata articles, among others, virtually from scratch and with little assistance. Hours of research were required to complete those articles, so yes I too know very well what I am talking about.

• You questioned mine first.

In case you've developed selective amnesia in the last seven or eight hours, kindly glance above at the page preceding. You were the first person to "question credentials" and "[verge] on personal attacks" with the following:

I am tired of arguing about this issue, but I suggest that you actually do a little not-KOTOR research into the Sith Empire and the extent of the Unknown Regions during this time period before you make any changes.

Ipso facto.

Accept the compromise as the gesture it was, and move on. -- The Bandsaw Vigilante 13 September 2006 (UTC)

• I have seen no sign of compromise from you The Bandsaw Vigilante. You have reverted the article to your personal version at roughly ten different times. You seem to think that as long as no one refutes your ideas on this talk page, you have the right to post whatever you like. That sort of behavior is called bullying and it is getting quite tiring. Your strange suggestion that it is I and I alone who stands in your way is pure fantasy. Several users have reverted your changes for the same reasons that I have. This is not a debate, a court room, or a battle. It is not about pride or winning. I am more than willing to negotiate the wording of the first section of the article, but I simply will not put up with any more of your abrasive comments and browbeating. Such misplaced fervor has no place on a wiki such as this one.–Sentry^Talk 19:15, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

On general intellectual principles, I think I should probably defend myself, here:

Sorry it's reached this pitch, and I do offer my regrets that events have gone....slightly more out of control...than I would have preferred, but the street runs the other way, too. It's largely come down to a disagreement between the two of us -- with a couple three or four people watching from the sidelines and offering occasional input. If you look at the history page, there's been one user -- Kuralyov -- who performed one single edit, and it wasn't until SillyDan stepped in that another third party finally got involved. From where I sit -- and please don't take this in any confrontational sense -- being primarily the main spokesman for the other side, what you've done in the past week could also easily be construed as "bullying" or "browbeating," but I'll be the first to admit that as human beings, we each tend to accuse the other side of exactly what the other side accuses ourselves of doing (if that makes sense).

Again, I offer my apologies if things got slightly in arrears for both of us and on a bad footing, and know that I'm normally not the type of person to get "fervent" on a SW board terribly often (as certain TF.N folks here can testify to). -- The Bandsaw Vigilante 16 September 2006 (UTC)

---

If my comments have been inflammatory, I apologize. I assure you that they were the result of rapid typing and not of malicious intent. In the big scheme of things, our discussion simply does not matter, so lets both stop the personal attacks and cool off for a while. It should be noted that I do not necessarily agree with the version of the article that I was reverting to. I did not have a hand in writing it and I have no special attachment to its content. I simply found it to be superior to the version that you continue to post.

At the top of the True Sith discussion section you typed this:

#Malachor V was once occupied tens of thousands of years ago by another, older order of the Sith. Kreia refers to them as "the True Sith" on multiple occasions throughout the latter phases of the game. Malachor is located right at the edge of the Unknown Regions, per The New Essential Chonology and the game's dialogue. Said Sith, whoever they were, then retreated back into the Unknown Regions at some undocumented point during the "interregnum" prior to the events of KotOR II. The First Sith Empire is founded in the year 6,900 BBY, following the Hundred-Year Darkness by renegade Dark Jedi, who discover the planet Korriban and adjacent space. The empire comes nowhere near the Unknown Regions in territorial proximity, and lies far distant from Malachor V itself.

I disagree at two points:

• The phrase, another, older order of the Sith, is unproven and unverified.
• Secondly, your statement that the empire comes nowhere near the Unknown Regions in territorial proximity is simply speculation because no one knows what the full extent of the Sith Empire was.

Even if I agree with these three points (with the reservations above), they prove nothing. Upon the weak framework of those three points, you erected a new Sith Empire. Does that make sense? In every known source, only one Sith Empire exists in ancient Star Wars history and yet you are attempting to create another one simply in order to make Kreia's obscure statements make sense. Is it not far more likely that Kreia was referring to the Sith Empire and simply messed up the dates as she messed up the Mandalorian War dates? The fact is that I don't need to prove anything. The Sith Empire that I am referring to exists in a multitude of sources, while the supposed 'Sith Empire' that you continually attempt to create has no source beyond a few vague mentions in a video game that can easily be explained as mistakes spawned from a lack of research on the part of Obsidian Entertainment. Since when has it been the responsibility of fandom to attempt to patch such continuity mistakes and publish the results as official canon? On this wiki, such creations are considered fanon however well-meaning they are. If you apply Occam's razor to this problem, I think that you will find that my explanation is far simpler and easier to reconcile with the available facts.–Sentry^Talk 04:07, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

However, as I mentioned above, it should be noted that at no point does Kreia ever give the dating-fix for the True Sith Empire's age...it comes from the historical "factoid" loading-screens and elsewhere, which eliminates the possibility that she might have been in error there. A lack of research on Obsidian's part was never a factor in any of the development. As I went into earlier, it still stands as a valid, legitimate piece of LFL canon until such time as it ever gets changed, and thus must be factored into the overall equation.

As far as the Sith Empire's overall territorial boundaries were concerned, it's mentioned in the Tales of the Jedi RPG Companion that there weren't any member-worlds stretching out towards what we know now as the Unknown Regions during Marka Ragnos's lifetime -- being severely limited and isolated in space, they would've eventually bumped into the Republic long beforehand, if this were the case -- but that after the Great Hyperspace War, a few lone, renegade Sith established "outpost" worlds-in-exile out in the direction of the UR, though this was obviously well after the Empire's total collapse. By its very nature, it was extremely cut off from the rest of the galaxy, encysted away within a very finite region of space (as the comics establish), and largely situated between the Perlemian and the Hydian Way, though there is the issue of the Korriban-coordinates on Malachor V to take into account; something I'm hoping a future source will finally reconcile for good.

And there are still the comments from the Obsidian VIPs, which defined their intention to introduce a second, entirely new and distinctive branch of the Sith into the SW universe that vastly predated even the (then- 25,000 BBY) old Sith Order, and designed them accordingly. This "new Sith Empire of mine" honestly isn't something that originated with me at all, but something which now exists within the continuity, and which stands strictly on the dating-evidence, which per LFL, must be taken into account. Now, all that said, I totally agree with your assessment that it is far easier to take the First Sith Empire and retrofit the new True Sith data onto it -- as I attempted to do before my second playthrough of the game -- but the more and more notes I took (adding new minute details I missed on each previous playthrough) the clearer it became that the True Sith were something else entirely.

Believe it or not, but I was actually taken rather aback by this, feeling that it substantially diminished the power and prestige of Naga Sadow's group in the process, but the data had to be dealt with and reincorporated into the greater whole. Swinging Occam's Razor in the majority of cases does indeed help cut through most of the speculative underbrush (a technique one is frequently compelled to use in legal practice), but retrospectively in this instance, I think I found out that I was swinging it in the wrong direction altogether, and was forced to rethink several of my theories in the process.

Additionally -- and this is admittedly far more second-hand than any of the other evidence -- one of my old high school chums, now employed at LucasArts, is (or rather, was, but still might be) a member of the KotOR III development team, and told me slightly over a year ago that the True Sith were to be a major facet of the next game, and confirmed when asked that there were going to be some major historical bifurcations and departures between the True Sith and the First Sith Empire. (Again, absolutely nothing binding which you have to take at face value coming from me personally or anything like that, but it's what I've been told by someone on the inside in a strong position to know, and which might yet happen...though plans can always change.) -- The Bandsaw Vigilante 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Protection

Since there's an edit war, I'm protecting this page — but not, obviously, endorsing either version at this point. —Silly Dan _(talk) 03:25, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

That's ok but please, edit out the phrase 'it is established in the game' MoffRebus 09:05, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

• However, it says so right there in the loading-screens. A clearer-cut case of "established in the game" you'll be hard-pressed to find. -- The Bandsaw Vigilante 14 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Articles are supposed to be written from an in-universe perspective, as if everything that's said was a real event that happened in the past. -- I need a name 13:32, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
    • Removed it (as an admin, I can edit any protected page. Still not endorsing either version.) —Silly Dan _(talk) 14:03, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Alright, here is my compromise proposal:

Early history The early history of Malachor V remains largely unknown. Vague and conflicting reports from the time period establish only that an ancient branch of the Sith — later dubbed by Kreia the "True Sith" — constructed the Trayus Academy on Malachor V's surface. In time, the Academy, and Malachor itself, became a place of great dark side power that was populated by untold numbers of Sith. At some unknown point, the empire of the True Sith disintegrated, and they retreated further back into the Unknown Regions, abandoning their stronghold on Malachor V. It had been suggested by some that the Sith who populated the planet were in fact, members or former members of the Sith Empire, but such a hypothesis would remain controversial among historians and has yet to be proven. The historical records are clear, however, that there was some connection between the mysterious True Sith and the Sith Empire. The extent and manner of that connection has yet to be discovered.

The second paragraph really isn't required, and can be considered optional.–Sentry^Talk 19:52, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Not a bad edit, and it's quite workable as far as I'm concerned. I hope you'll accept my apologies. -- The Bandsaw Vigilante 16 September 2006 (UTC)

• Well, if you're both satisfied, I'll unprotect the page and put that in. —Silly Dan _(talk) 20:53, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Grammar changes

Hey, I did some grammar changes and changed a few sentances around as they were a bit confusing to me when I read them (only two). I also tweeked the True Sith page, if anyone was wondering... China 21:17, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

More Quotes

I think this article could use a few more quotes, considering that several prominent figures in the KotOR era had something to say about the planet. I don't have any right in front of me, but I could find some to add if nobody has any objections or suggestions. Master Kavar 16:24, 29 November 2006 (UTC

Malachor V's Storm beasts

I heard that Malachor V's storm beasts a sentient. How is this possible? Can someone tell me?Revan rocks Caedus sucks December 19

• They're not. Period. NaruHina ^Talk 01:56, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

KotOR

When was Malachor mentioned in KotOR I? NaruHina ^Talk 01:58, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

• It is mentioned twice, once in a conversation with Canderous and once - if you have Canderous in the party - by Ergeron, the mandalorian mercenary on Manaan.

Canderous: "But at the time, it looked like the galaxy was in our grasp!There was no one else. The entire Republic had committed its forces behind Revan. The Sith had retreated back to their empire and there were none else strong enough to challenge us.It looked like the entire galaxy was within our grasp!I still remember that final battle in the skies above Malachor V. The two fleets filling the space around it, outshining the stars...It was not your ships or your men or your vaunted 'fight for freedom' that won this, the final battle of the war."

Ergeron (mandalorian mercenary on Manaan): "Canderous! I haven't seen you since the Republic broke our ranks at the battle of Malachor!"

Both of these quotes are straight from the dialog.tlk file in KotOR1. Jediphile 13:58, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Mandalorian Taboo?

Why is Malachor V a taboo world in Mandalorian culture?

• Unfortunately I don't believe any information has been released on this particular subject. I'm currently replaying KotOR 2 multiple times right now to see if any other mentions or info is made known. Oh, and please sign your posts! =) --Linkstarwars 11:32, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
• I believe, but do not know, that it is to do with the fact that the Mandalorians have previously worked with the sith, in Exar Kun's time, and have fared very badly, as told by Mandalore in KOTOR 2.Blazinangel911 13:28, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Behind the scene's

I dont get the similarity between the the two. --GreenGuardsman 05:03, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Survived?

I know that Malachor did not exactly get obliterated to the scale that Alderaan was in Star Wars, but it was clearly split into at least three large planetoids/asteroids. The Old Republic partially retcons its "total destruction" for some reason in the codex. I know this probably has nothing to do with being on the same page as Rebels, but my question is how Malachor's remains were able to retain an atmosphere to support life. It just seems to make little sense to me. Darth Ravigious (talk) 19:49, March 28, 2016 (UTC)

• Note. I forgot about the possibility of exogorths...my bad.Darth Ravigious (talk) 19:51, March 28, 2016 (UTC)
• What makes you think there was an atmosphere? We have an entire category of species that can survive in a vacuum. There's no "partial retcon" or anything in TOR, the crew skill mission and one of the Codex entries flat out say that the planet's now an asteroid field. Cade Calrayn 19:52, March 28, 2016 (UTC)
  • As I said, that never occurred to me. :P How did relics survive the destruction though? Did Luke not mention something like that in the Book of the Sith? Darth Ravigious (talk) 20:04, March 28, 2016 (UTC)