Talk: Showdown on Coruscant

Article milestones Date Process Result 6 August 2006 Good article nomination Success 5 October 2006 Good article December 22, 2008 Good article review Removed January 18, 2009 Former Good article 23 January 2009 Good article nomination Restored 21 March 2009 Good article
Current status: Good article

Are you serious?

So now individual lightsaber fights get their own battle pages? The line has to be drawn somewhere, methinks. Kuralyov 17:27, 5 Jan 2006 (UTC)

• Why not? --Master Starkeiller 17:28, 5 Jan 2006 (UTC)

erm its a very speical event me thinks. so yeh it deserves a space, it does need doing up though... JediDude

• I also believe it deserves some mention. Mostly because it's a little more than a duel and something less than an all out war. -- SFH 18:31, 5 Jan 2006 (UTC)
  • We have pages for holidays and major events (Life Day, Empire Day, declaration of the Empire) so why not for lightsaber duels? They're still battles, albeit in reduced forms - what were the ancient Jedi vs Sith battles if not overinflated lightsaber duels? Besides, duels such as this, and the 'Battle of the Heroes' are some of the most important events in galactic history, easily comparable to the formation of the Empire - Kwenn 18:36, 5 Jan 2006 (UTC)
    • Well said, Kwenn. Admiral J. Nebulax 20:47, 5 Jan 2006 (UTC)
      • My only question is the name, I think it deserves a more accurate name, "duel on Coruscant" could also apply to Sidious' and Yoda's duel on the Senate Rotunda. Also, shouldn't Anakin or Vader be counted in the side of the Sith considering he interfered on the duel?. --Gonzalo84 01:46, 6 Jan 2006 (UTC)

• • The "duel" had been over by the time he arrived. Palpatine was defeated and Mace was pointinghis blade to Palpatine's face. - TopAce 11:02, 6 Jan 2006 (UTC)
• I was the one who suggested a subcategory for duals, and I’m glad someone took me up on the idea. Duals are critical events in Star Wars, both in the movies and in the EU. In the movies, the story has frequently hinged on lightsaber duals, and while duals are a less frequent feature of the EU, they are usually important events when they occur. They deserve special scrutiny for all the reasons battles do, but deserve to be studied separately since they contain questions too peculiar to lightsaber dueling to answer elsewhere; for example: what lightsaber forms did Obi-Wan and Anakin use to defeat Count Dooku on their second dual? What did Roan Shryne realize was Vader’s weakness during their daul on Kashyyyk? And what went on behind the scenes during the filming of the daul between Windu and Sidious? These are all the kinds of questions that deserve a full article, and this is why this article and others in this category deserve to stay.

--Jad Jermain 06:20, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Duel?

This question may be because of my misknowing of words, but does not "duel" mean only a one vs. one fight? Because this battle was not practically a one vs. one, it was four vs. one. That's another fish in the keetle that three of them died in ten seconds. - TopAce 11:04, 6 Jan 2006 (UTC)

• Massacre? -- Riffsyphon1024 11:34, 6 Jan 2006 (UTC)
  • Jedi Rebellion? --Master Starkeiller 12:13, 6 Jan 2006 (UTC)
    • Quitel ?KEJ 12:29, 6 Jan 2006 (UTC)
      • Jedi Rebellion sounds good, though as long as we note it was the term used by Palpatine to describe the battle in his office - Kwenn 12:53, 6 Jan 2006 (UTC)
        • The Jedi Rebellion also included the raid on the Temple and Order 66. If we renamed in "Jedi Rebellion", we'd have to rearrange some things. --Master Starkeiller 13:22, 6 Jan 2006 (UTC)
          • Showdown on Coruscant? jSarek 19:45, 10 Jan 2006 (UTC)
            • Well, "Showdown" and "Duel" are basically the same. Admiral J. Nebulax 22:30, 10 Jan 2006 (UTC)
              • • I think Showdown is in fact better than Duel because it describes more than 1 person, basically. LukeheGreat 21:07, 2 Feb 2007

Fan reaction

Should we include a section of the reaction towards this "duel"? Many fans were disappointed with its poor choreography and the likes KEJ 12:29, 6 Jan 2006 (UTC)

• Perhaps in conjunction with something about the last-minute reworking of the fight (originally Anakin was present throughout) that may have contributed to what some fans deem poor choreography and effects - Kwenn 12:53, 6 Jan 2006 (UTC)
  • Yeah, I think a behind the scenes section would be juicy. --Master Starkeiller 13:15, 6 Jan 2006 (UTC)
    • I agree. Admiral J. Nebulax 22:06, 6 Jan 2006 (UTC)

I think it may be more imortant to mention the controversial outcome of the duel rather than poor choreography.

• We could also menrion that the way Kit Fisto, Saesee Tiin and Agen Kolar died was way too fast for the liking of fans for each character. Does that make sense? - TopAce 14:54, 10 Jan 2006 (UTC)
  • It would make more sense like: The fans of Kit Fisto, Saesee Tiin and Agen Kolar were disappointed when those characters were killed early in the duel without putting up a fight. - Alpha Fire 01:50, 11 Jan 2006 (UTC)
    • Wait a minute, now that I'm thinking this over, we shouldn't add things about fans' reactions. We're an encyclopedia, not a Star Wars forum. Admiral J. Nebulax 12:49, 11 Jan 2006 (UTC)
      • We already have sections about fan reactions, about each Episode (I think). - TopAce 10:41, 14 Jan 2006 (UTC)

Images

Would it be better to exchange the two images? I think the one with all four Jedi on it should be the main picture, while the Mace vs. Sidious one in the article. What do you think? - TopAce 10:41, 14 Jan 2006 (UTC)

• The Mace vs. Sidious picture shoes the action, so no, they shouldn't be switched. Admiral J. Nebulax 13:11, 14 Jan 2006 (UTC)
  • No way, they're fine. --Master Starkeiller 13:18, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Chancellor's Office

I had moved this to Duel in the Chancellor's Office because this was not the only "Duel on Coruscant" so it should not be called so. How about the Duel in the Senate? That was another "Duel on Coruscant". Wolfdog 18:57, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

• Oops. I'll fix it. Admiral J. Nebulax 18:59, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Thanks. I'm going to try and set up more "Duel" pages that others can help expand. Wolfdog 19:01, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
    • If you need any help, I'd be glad to see what I can do. Admiral J. Nebulax 19:26, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Merge

The duel is of little importance, so I propose it be merged into the articles of all involved, as well as the Order 66 article. --Imp ^Comlink 09:08, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

• No, this deserves its own article. It was a specific event. Admiral J. Nebulax 12:22, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
  • So would anyone care to explain the significance? So Palpatine and Anakin kill a bunch of powerful Jedi, what's the big deal? --Imp ^Comlink 12:42, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
    • Well, considering it was a key moment in Anakin's fall to the dark side, four Jedi Masters died, and Palpatine was revealed as Sidious... I'd say that's enough. Admiral J. Nebulax 12:45, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
      • So all events where someone changes their outlook on life deserve separate articles? I suppose we better add articles on Luke's encounter with Palpatine in Dark Empire, or perhaps Luke's training on Dagobah... --Imp ^Comlink 12:55, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
• I think we should keep it. -Danik Kreldin 13:04, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
  • No, Imperialles. It should be kept. This duel, as well as Order 66, were specific events that shaped the course of galactic history, unlike your two "examples". Admiral J. Nebulax 13:14, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
    • Palpatine, revealing himself to be a Sith, kills some insignificant Jedi Masters and recruits a new thug. Hardly what you'd call "shaping the fate of galactic history". The only difference between this and my examples is that this involves a cool lightsaber battle. --Imp ^Comlink 13:19, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
      • Amendment: Palpatine, revealing himself to be THE Sith, Darth Sidious, kills four Senior Members of the High Council, including Mace Windu himself, and formally declares Anakin Skywalker as Darth Vader, the new Dark Lord of the Sith. Very much shaping the fate of galactic history - Kwenn 13:42, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
        • See? While I agree that Duel in the Senate can be deleted, this is very important. Admiral J. Nebulax 14:19, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
• This article must be kept. At least this now that you are going to delete the Duel in the Senate, throwing the efforts of a dozen of Wookiepedians into the dustbin with a few clicks. - TopAce 16:36, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
• If we keep this one how about putting more duels in the battle list, as in the duel between Revan, Jolee, and Juhani against Bastila, etc. User:RushinSundaws
  • Yeah, Rushin. In fact, why don't we make a seperate article for every occasion where a lightsaber is used? --Imp 17:54, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
    • No, Rushin. We shouldn't have minor battles that didn't decide the fate of the Galaxy as greatly as this one. Admiral J. Nebulax 20:18, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
      • Writing articles about movie duels and game duels are two different things. - TopAce 11:36, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
        • So you're saying this is more important than, say, the duel between Malak And Revan because it appears in the movies? --Imp 12:34, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
          • No. This duel was the fate of the Galaxy. Had the Jedi won, there wouldn't be a Galactic Empire, and the Sith would be extinct. Admiral J. Nebulax 21:02, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Everything the Admiral said above is right on the money. Other duels that took place during battles can be put into the articles on the battles. Duels that did not, such as this, the Duel in the Senate, and the Duel on Bespin deserve their own articles. And I take offense at "insignificant" Jedi Masters. -- SFH 21:08, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
    • See, Imperialles? Admiral J. Nebulax 21:10, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
    • I was actually responding to TopAce saying the movies are more important than the EU. Anyway, I realise the consensus is against me here, so I'll just ignore these pages. --Imp 21:42, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
• This is not a "Sith Lord in hiding revealing himself to be a Sith, kills some insignificant Jedi Masters and recruits a new thug" type battle, it's "THE Sith Lord in hiding revealing himself to be THE Sith, kills THE Jedi Masters and recruits THE new thug" type battle, perhaps the most important battle in Sith and Jedi history EVAH. It's the battle that gave birth to Darth Vader, the friggin' Chosen One turned bad guy, for Sidious's sake! Duels that aren't part of a bigger battle should have their articles too. Enemy lightsabers crossed=battle. Thus, an article for it. There should be more Duel pages. --Master Starkeiller 22:51, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
  • I don't think there should be more duel pages, but this one should definitely stay. Admiral J. Nebulax 00:31, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Article Title

Would whoever put up t he conjecture template like to help me think of a better name of this article? Or perhaps you want to leave this as "Duel on Coruscant" and do what we do with battles and number them if there's more then one (e.g. Second Duel on Coruscant)? If you put up a template, help give some input so we can resolve the situation. If you don't leave input on the discussion page, then don't put up the template. I'm taking it down for now. Wolfdog 05:11, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

• They should stay up because the duels were never actually named. Admiral J. Nebulax ^(talk) 12:58, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
  • This is true. OK. Wolfdog 00:13, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
    • Good. And next time, don't remove them. Admiral J. Nebulax ^(talk) 00:14, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
      • I assume that the "conjecture" tempate will then stay up forever since this battle wasn't "officially" named? Wolfdog 02:25, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
        • Yeah, do you have a problem with that? It's not harming the article in any way. Admiral J. Nebulax ^(talk) 21:21, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
          • Showdown on Coruscant was used in The Ultimate Visual Guide. Well I know it doesn't bear any real canonical value, but just a friendly reference for you guys. Darth Kevinmhk 16:14, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
            • Well, I don't like that title personally because "showdown" makes me think of the old West. Admiral J. Nebulax ^(talk) 20:06, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
              • Ironic, because EP3 The Illustrated Screenplay described the 4 Jedi Masters marching in the Senate Office Building Landing Platform "like gunfighters out of the old West". Darth Kevinmhk 04:21, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
                • Still, I think this is a good title. Admiral J. Nebulax ^(talk) 13:12, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Mace trust Anakin!

• I notice the article say "Distrusting Anankin, Mace...". But I believe Mace did trust Anakin, even with only the movie. Ki said if Palpatine refused to give up power then he should be removed from office. Mace in the hangar bay said they are going to ensure the power go back to the Senate. Then Mace said the infamous "If what you said is true, then you would have gained my trust." Now, we move to the office: Not only Mace had a super-serious + aggressive expression, he declared an arrest and unleashed 4 lightsaber blades right upon their arrival - so they did believe Ani's word about Palpatine=Sidious, otherwise they would ask him to give up power first before attempting an arrest. Not to mention the script said the Jedi Masters blasted away Palpatine's office aides and Red Guards with the Force before entering the office: a clear show of the Jedi believing Palpatine's Sith identity and his subordinates are now enemies of the Jedi Order. Novel of course support this: Mace inform Yoda before going to the office, and Mace officially claimed Palpatine as a Sith in front of the Dark Lord. The remaining question is whether Mace trust Anakin's action (not words) as a person: Mace claimed Anakin's judgement was clouded by emotion - a fact we know is true, as witness in the internal confrontation of Ani in the Council Chamber. So, I believe Mace did trust Anakin Skywalker's words, and he did not allow Ani to come only because Anakin was in unstable condition. Please kindly comment. Darth Kevinmhk 04:14, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
  • I'd say that pretty much hits the nail on the head. Admiral J. Nebulax ^(talk) 20:49, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
    • Rewrite that sentence in the article with less debatable facts. Darth Kevinmhk 01:53, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
      • Do you mean "rewrote"? Admiral J. Nebulax ^(talk) 01:55, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
        • Oh! ya, lol. Darth Kevinmhk 02:14, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
          • Just checking... ;) Admiral J. Nebulax ^(talk) 22:17, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Image

Okay...I just wanted to ask if I can replace the image in the infobox with this one:

File:Vaapad.jpg

It is more intense and shows them clashing their lightsabers together in the fight and the infobox image can be place somewhere else.--Darth Tyler^(talk) 16:32, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

• I won't mind. Darth Kevinmhk 02:29, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
• I strongly prefer the other one because it clearly shows both fighters. The rage in Palpy's face and the determination in Mace's (in the latter's case it's more his stance than his face). --Master Starkeiller 17:21, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Excerpt of audio recording

• Does anyone think an excerpt of the audio recording from the EP3 novel would be nice? Maybe a Wookieequote section could be opened for this article, quoting lines from both the movie and the novel - which indeed have some interesting lines. Darth Kevinmhk 15:54, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Stover reference, or am I reading into this too heavily?

This is going to sound awfully silly, but do you think the shattering of the glass could have been a tip of the hat to Matthew Stover's little "shatterpoint" trait that he has imbued into Mace Windu? .... 22:37, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

• Interesting theory, but I doubt it. I don't think George Lucas cares about that. Chack Jadson 14:09, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
• hmmm... cool idea....but jadson's right. lucas doesnt care about EU.74.186.151.239 18:10, 24 December 2008 (UTC).

Conjectural title

How is this not the actual title? Emperor Maakurder 's comlink 21:11, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

• No canon source directly called this event as such, that's why. - TopAce 21:12, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

At risk concerns

Duel in the Chancellor's Office has been tagged with the Gacleanup template for the following reason(s):

• No notes and references section.

The community is invited and encouraged to help improve this article to meet current GA standards. --School of Thrawn 101 05:29, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

• Done. Unit 8311 17:59, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Sidious losing his lightsaber

It says here that Sidious lost his lightsaber (i.e it fell out the window), but if it did, then how come he had in during the battle fo the senate (unless he had a spare, but I've never heard of a "Lightsaber-User" having a spare, they always make a new one (or steal one, in Grevious' case)) . When i wathced i just had the impression that it fell to the window sill, or flew inside the office. wat dya think?--Ima Wiz Iway amway Imagineway Izardway. 21:36, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

• It's possible that he could have simply retrieved it, whether by sending minions to get it from outside or simply Force summoning it back up to his office. 71.103.97.189 12:44, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

Agen Kolar and Saesee Tiin

How can 2 Jedi Masters like Agen Kolar and Saesee Tiin be defeated in 2 seconds.I understand Palpatine is very powerful but he didn't do anything special.He just stabbed Kolar and slashed Tiin.They didn't even tried to defend themselves,or Mace Windu could have killed Palpatine while he was stabbing Kolar.They didn't respond to the attack. --Kriztian 16:29, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

• Please use talk pages to talk about the article, not the subject matter. --Darth tom (Imperial Intelligence) 16:32, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

windu guiding the fight?

this article fails to reflect the greatest aspect of the scene, the fact that sidious arranged the fight and allowed windu to win for the purpose of turning anakin. from anakin's perspective, no duel has even taken place. he simply sees the jedi master he deeply resents standing agressively over a helpless old man. obi-wan is gone, yoda is gone, the other dead knights are in the other room, even sidious' sabre is gone. sidious was in control of the whole fight, and deliberately passed up several opportunities to run windu through. this is a massively important part of the story. it was all set up to make anakin feel lkike palpatine, and thus padme, were in deadly danger. watch how sidious plays "sad old man" until windu says he won't kill him, and then he unleashes his power just enough to make windu want him dead, and then plays sad old man again. it's beautiful how it was all arranged, yet this website contains no mention of it, and even implies windu won legitimately. —Unsigned comment by 66.222.165.17 (talk • contribs).

• If you could cite a source that states that, it would be included, but I'll save you a fruitless afternoon. As it stands, nowhere in Star Wars canon does it say Sidious was letting Windu win just to turn Anakin. NaruHina ^Talk 03:42, June 14, 2010 (UTC)
• well, for that matter, nowhere in canon does it specifically say in words that palpatine requested that anakin go to utapau because he knew that doing so would convince windu that anakin absolutely must not go to utapau, so that he would remain on coruscant to be turned, but it's such an important part of the story that it doesn't NEED to be written explicitly. if you say that windu won the fight legitimately, you say that sidious turned anakin accidentally, contradicting his earlier line "soon i will have a new apprentice", and his previous decade of mentoring. —Unsigned comment by 66.222.165.17 (talk • contribs).
  • It has to be written to be included on Wookieepedia. It was said that he requested Anakin go to Utapau. That's what we write. NaruHina ^Talk 00:59, June 16, 2010 (UTC)
    • it wasn't written that windu guided the fight, yet you wrote that. that is fanon, a contradicts the film, yet here it is. —Unsigned comment by 66.222.165.17 (talk • contribs).
      • Nowehere in the article does it say Windu "lead the fight." That's an accurate retelling based on what is clearly seen and read in the movie and novel. NaruHina ^Talk 22:15, June 17, 2010 (UTC)
        • no, what's clearly seen in the film is sidious guiding the fight, completely outfighting windu, pulling strikes, and setting up the situation to turn anakin as he said earlier. yet this article says he simply was defeated, and with ease. this implies he turned anakin accidentally, in the course of begging for his life. this is a direct contradiction to the events in the film, including the later scene where even yoda can't defeat sidious. you could at least make the article describe the fight in neutral terms and then "teach the controversy" in a sub-section, describing the disagreement between windu-worshippers and the film's plot. —Unsigned comment by 66.222.165.17 (talk • contribs).
          • It does not imply it was done with ease, he was fighting the Dark Lord of the Sith. It does not imply Anakin was turned accidentally either. It's clear you have at least glanced at the article but there is no longer a sections about debates regarding the scene. The subsection "discrepecies" points out differences between the different source materials. That's it. NaruHina ^Talk 10:19, June 18, 2010 (UTC)
            • the article very specifically describes sidious being utterly defeated by windu. this is in direct contradiction to the film, which shows that sidious had no intention of winning that fight. if you're not going to reflect that aspect of the story, at least make the language neutral instead of so blatantly in contradiction to the story. the idea that windu won the fight against sidious' best efforts is fanon, and you shouldn't have fanon in your articles. —Unsigned comment by 66.222.165.17 (talk • contribs).
              • Sign your comments with four tildes. (~~~~) IFYLOFD ^{(Floyd's crib)} 23:13, June 18, 2010 (UTC)