Talk: Supreme Commander (Galactic Empire)/Legends

Okay. A new page, a new beginning. Vader's rank as "Supreme Commander of the Imperial Forces" appears on the back of a toy packet, it turns out, but I've not touched anything below the "cleanup" cartouche yet.... --McEwok 21:40, 1 Nov 2005 (UTC)

• This page is worthless. It should be moved back to Supreme Commander of the Imperial Fleet, as all McEwok did was add two paragraphs before it and slapped on an "Attention" notice. This is absolutely stupid. I request that this be moved back immediately. Cmdr. J. Nebulax 21:53, 1 Nov 2005 (UTC)
  • Besides, what reasons were there to this page's move? Cmdr. J. Nebulax 21:58, 1 Nov 2005 (UTC)

I think all the Supreme Commander pages needed rearrangement, which I've tried to provide by:

Turning the main Supreme Commander page, which previously had the Alliance/NR stuff on it, into a disambiguation page

Placing the Alliance/NR titles onto a new page, Supreme Commander (Alliance/Republic) - which needs a lot of work too!

Creating this page with redirects from Supreme Commander of the Imperial Forces and Supreme Commander of the Imperial Fleet. The new page structure is meant to allow us to deal with the ambiguous evidence we have in a lucid and constructive manner, sidestepping the fan disagreement on whether these two titles are the same.

This page requires work, yes - hence the attention notice - but I think this is the first step to fixing things. Nebulax - I'm sorry you caught me mid-rearrangement; can we work this out, and make the best job we can, in cooperation? --McEwok 22:08, 1 Nov 2005 (UTC)

• There was only one "Supreme Commander of the Imperial Fleet". Therefore, it should remain at the page of the same name. Cmdr. J. Nebulax 22:14, 1 Nov 2005 (UTC)
  • There are three Imperial officers referred to as "Supreme Commander" and placed in charge of prosectuting the war with the Rebels; two (Vader and Luke) are specifically referred to as "Supreme Commander of the Imperial Forces", one (Pellaeon) is "Supreme Commander of the Imperial Fleet" or "Supreme Fleet Commander". Exactly what the slight terminological difference between these titles means is (a.) unclear from the evidence, and (b.) disputed among fans. However, as they hold office consecutively, they can be treated in chronological order, with a mention of Thrawn and Daala in between thrown in for good measure. If not - why not? --McEwok 22:21, 1 Nov 2005 (UTC)
• What I'm saying is it should be moved back to Supreme Commander of the Imperial Fleet due to (a.) That is a separate title, (b.) Because all of those people listed held this position, which is separate from other positions, and (c.) There is no other "Supreme Commander" position that we know of within the Empire. "Supreme Commander of the Imperial Forces" is another term for this title. Therefore, as I have said, it should be moved back. Cmdr. J. Nebulax 22:55, 1 Nov 2005 (UTC)
  • I basically (actually quite emphatically) agree with you that the "Fleet" and "Forces" titles are one and the same in all respects but the terminological variation; but the old Discussion page shows that some fans disagree, and there is no absolute proof - nor, for that matter, has anyone been able to find explicit evidence that Thrawn or Daala held a formal, titled de jure position. In the final analysis, it just seems to me to be a less contentious and complicated header. This allows us to deal with the Empire's "Supreme Commanders" (as both Luke and Pellaeon are called) in a single lucid page that's hopefully acceptable to everyone, regardless of what their view of the relationship between the "Fleet" and "Forces" titles is. Does that make sense? --McEwok 23:03, 1 Nov 2005 (UTC)
• Yes, except for the fact that this page is basically "Supreme Commander of the Imperial Fleet" and therefore should be moved back. Listen, McEwok, I understand what you're trying to say, but all you did was take the Supreme Commander of the Imperial Fleet page, moved it, added two paragraphs to the beginning that were unneccisary, and slapped an "Attention" warning on it. There was no need for any of that. It should have just stayed at the original page. Cmdr. J. Nebulax 00:35, 2 Nov 2005 (UTC)
  • Perhaps I failed to make myself clear; the attention notice was there because I thought the page needed serious work - the disagreement over who the page was focused on had, I thought, dictated a convoluted and confusing structure, with more than a little repetition. Accordingly, I've rewritten, reorganized and expanded it according to a basically chronological scheme, and although I think this is "better" in outline if not in detail (I need to find exactly which Kenner action figure packet explicitly calls Vader SCotIF - but the Moff Council in 12 BBY is from a WotC pack), this is at least in part simply my sense of what the best solution is. I'm sure that it can be further improved. --McEwok 02:44, 2 Nov 2005 (UTC)
• Listen, you're missing my point. There was no other "Supreme Commander" position in the Empire than Supreme Commander of the Imperial Fleet. That is why this page should be moved back. Cmdr. J. Nebulax 20:49, 2 Nov 2005 (UTC)
  • In my personal analysis of the evidence, I agree with your argument that there's only one SC position; but I don't think this is directly proven to the unambiguous, hard-canon level that Wookiee is aiming for, and the earlier Discussion page shows that some people are espousing alternative interpretations (however much you and I both disagree with them!!); unless you have unambiguous evidence that I don't know about, I think this page format makes more sense - we know without a doubt that the short-form title "Supreme Commander" continues from the peroid of "...of the Imperial Forces" to "...of the Imperial Fleet" (and it's also shared with the Rebellion/NR/Alliance terminology). However, I'm prepared to go with something different if that's the majority view and/or what Riffsyphon wants.... --McEwok 21:25, 2 Nov 2005 (UTC)
    • I'm going to go also with the idea that I believe Military Executor is another name for Supreme Commander and the two positions are one in the same -Charlemagne19

Clarification of the Titles

My suggestion is that the following be added to the front page. "The nature of this article presupposes the title of Supreme Commander to be referring to the absolute leader of the Imperial military forces acting as absolute leader of all military assets of the Empire in the name of the civilian government. The precise nature of the relationship between the ranks of Supreme Commander of the Imperial Fleet, Supreme Fleet Commander, Executor, Supreme Commander, and other titles is presently unclear. It is possible and even likely that they are all simply different ways of referring to the same position." -Charlemagne19

• I don't think that's totally neccessary, at least not in those precise words, which feel too "absolute" for me: "absolute leader of the Imperial military forces acting as absolute leader of all military assets of the Empire" seems tautological, and I'm not sure if "civilian government" is entirely accurate, either; also, the issue is, IMHO, currently covered organically in the intro as it is. I'd certainly hold off on editing until/unless we can confirm that the title of Military Executor (which has its own page, and rightly so) actually existed before Sedriss. Thus far, no proof's been forthcoming, and if anything, I'm tempted to "edit down" the references to Vader as Executor... --McEwok 20:07, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
  • True. I'm not sure which exactly had it. However, it might have been from one of two sources. The Guide to characters and the Dark Side Sourcebook. You may be right that it's not confirmed but I believe Vader's Legacy will confirm his rank. It may thus be premature to do some editing there.

- -Charlemagne19

Typo

• In the "After Endor" section, there's a phrase "senior officer in the attrited military." Now, "attrited" is a typo, but I can't figure out what was intended here. Enochf 19:24, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Making a new section... Grand Admiral J. Nebulax ^{(Imperial Holovision)} 21:36, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

• • "Attrited" means 'worn down' or 'reduced'; if something has suffered attrition, it's been attrited. Does that clear it up? --McEwok 11:59, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

2.4 Rewrite

I would suggest that Vader was not Supreme Commander of the Imperial Armed Forces before the Battle of Yavin. ANH does not seem to indicate that he holds any sort of power as one would expect the Supreme Commander to hold. He is openly talked down to by Admiral Motti, a member of the Imperial Navy. It is not until The Empire Strikes Back that Vader seems to be in charge of the efforts to destroy the Rebellion. ANH and most pre ANH Expanded Universe material support this in portraying Vader as nothing but a special trouble shooting envoy of the Emperor who can commandeer whatever resources he feels he needs in order to accomplish the Emperor's will.

In any case, for various reasons it would not make sense to make Vader Supreme Commander before ANH. That would upset the existing military heiarchy at a time when Palaptine's power is far short of being consolidated. Installing Vader so quickly as Supreme Commander would risk more rebellion from within the Imperial Armed Forces.

After ANH, not only is there a significant power vacuum in the wake of Tarkin, Motti, and Tagge's deaths but the Emperor can claim that the failures of the established military heirarchy have forced him to take a more direct hand in eliminating the Rebellion by establishing his personal envoy as Supreme Commander. I suggest that Vader did not become Supreeme Commander until after ANH.

Sources?

It may be, that I missed something the last time I read the CE comics, but no one of the officers within the council where atributet as Supreme Commander of the Empire. They where just high ranking officers. So by including them into the list , you made an fanon assumtion (as with others like Paltr Carvin). Newer Sources also retcon Thrawns status. They should be all removed removed, and only the confirmed ones should be listed and addressed in this article.--Modgamers (talk) 08:55, March 1, 2015 (UTC)

List of Supreme Commanders

Except Vader and Luke, are there any other people who really held the title or are inferred to hold it, like say it is said they are given supreme command of the military or something?Alex of Star Wars (talk) 13:49, 28 April 2023 (UTC)