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How was the year determined? Did someone of authority state that the book takes place in 3,640 BBY? -- Heaven's Agent 19:27, June 15, 2012 (UTC)

  • Yes. Cade Calrayn StupidRepublicEmblem-Traced-TORkit 19:33, June 15, 2012 (UTC)
    • That's only 13 years after the signing of the Treaty of Coruscant, though. How could the main character be 30 years old when he was not born at the time of the Signing? -- Heaven's Agent 19:38, June 15, 2012 (UTC)
      • Where on earth did you get that info? He was born in 3670 BBY—he was 17 at the time of the Treaty. Cade Calrayn StupidRepublicEmblem-Traced-TORkit 20:42, June 15, 2012 (UTC)
His mother was only a Padawan at the time of the Signing. As far as we can tell she had no children at that point, and even Theron had been born by then there would be no way for him to be 30 years old just 13 years later. It would mean Satele Shan was still a Padawan at 30 years of age herself. If not older. -- Heaven's Agent 20:47, June 15, 2012 (UTC)

Annihilation's date Edit

After rereading the text of Annihilation, I've come to the conclusion that the novel must occur in 3,641 BBY and not 3,640 as previously believed. Here's the evidence.

"Marcus moved quickly through the halls of Coruscant’s massive Senate Building, heading for Jace Malcom’s office in the military wing. Forty standard years ago the Senators would have been horrified if a military officer—even the Supreme Commander of all Republic forces—had an office in the same building. Back then, most politicians had openly called for a massive decrease in the size of the Republic fleet and a reduction in the number of soldiers. The idea of a full-scale galactic war seemed preposterous, and the desire to shrink the scope and budget of the armed forces was virtually unanimous."
"Four decades of war against the reemerged Sith Empire had changed things significantly. When the Treaty of Coruscant had been forced on the Republic years ago, some believed a lasting peace with the Empire was possible. But in the last eighteen months the uneasy truce had collapsed, and a return to full-scale hostilities silenced all talk of peace in the halls of the Senate. As the tide of war shifted to the Republic’s favor, the idea of ending the Imperial threat once and for all began to gain support."
This quote expressly states that it has been forty years since the Sith Empire invaded - and it leaves no room for error by stating that forty years earlier the Senate was not expecting a war.
"The Supreme Commander took a deep breath, then slowly let it out. He’d been fighting the Sith for forty years: fighting for the Republic, fighting for the men and women who went into battle beside him, fighting for the future of the entire galaxy."
Malcom again states that it has been forty years since the Sith returned, meaning that it is 3,641 BBY.
"Satele opened her eyes as the memories faded away. They still hurt, even three decades later. As much as she wanted to believe she could master and control her emotions, when it came to Theron and Jace she had to recognize that it simply wasn’t possible."
This quote shows that Karpyshyn's initial statement of 3,640 BBY is unreliable, as the Battle of Alderaan occured in 3,667 BBY - not 3670 BBY. The idea that the novel occurred in 3,640 BBY came from Karpyshyn's Twitter post on Theron's age being 30, but that age is impossible because Theron was born in 3,666 BBY.
"Teff’ith just stared out the window of the cockpit. It had been almost two years since she’d last been here... not since her first run-in with Theron."
Teff'ith is referring to the events of The Lost Suns, which are confirmed to occur in 3,643 BBY because of Ngani Zho's statement that he spent 10 years in the Vesla system after infiltrating it in the weeks following the Sacking.

So, in summary, I'll be handling the relinking and changes, but Annihilation can't occur in 3,640 BBY. Cade Calrayn StupidRepublicEmblem-Traced-TORkit 02:59, December 3, 2012 (UTC)

Just an FYI, given that Wookieepedia can't use it as a source without the original emails: I've spoken directly with Leland Chee on the issue of the dates of Annihilation and The Lost Suns, in light of the surprising TOR start date given in the TOR Encyclopedia, along with dates from the Essential Reader's Companion. He has confirmed that (a) Fatal Alliance is in 3,643 BBY, as with the circa date in the ERC, (b) TOR does indeed start in 3,640 BBY rather than 3,643 BBY, as the TOR Encyclopedia says, (c) The Lost Stuns is still concurrent with the game, making it in 3,640 BBY as well, and (d) Annihilation is also still in 3,640 BBY, as the ERC states. So, basically, the entire game, with The Lost Suns running along with it, is apparently in the first big chunk of 3,640 BBY, followed shortly thereafter by Annihilation, and Fatal Alliance is no longer right before the game but about three years before the game. This threw me for a loop as well, but at least there's an answer, as much as it screws up the "about two years ago" references repeatedly in Annihilation to the events of The Lost Suns. Frankly, I blame the out-of-nowhere date revelation in the TOR Encyclopedia for the issues. It made far more sense for the game to span multiple years as the team originally discussed in forum posts and such. --NathanPButler (talk) 03:05, January 16, 2013 (UTC)

  • I'm sorry, but as that date is complete and utter nonsense, you'll have to give us actual proof before we can take that as true. Every single source in the entire TOR metaseries besides the Encyclopedia says that the game occurs throughout 3,643 to 3,641 BBY. Cade Calrayn StupidRepublicEmblem-Traced-TORkit 03:12, January 16, 2013 (UTC)

That's why I said you likely can't use it. Any time something like this comes up, I generally email Leland Chee directly, and he is kind enough to answer when time permits. It's a line of communication that, long ago, I decided I'd not risk by publicly sharing email contents, unless it was in the form of answers provided, rather than the body or email itself. Take it or leave it. If the latter, it just means that my Star Wars Timeline Gold will have LFL-accurate dates on it for its 2013 release this summer, and Wookieepedia will remain using incorrect dates. I simply figured folks might find it of interest, as the subject made for some interesting discussion on the SWT-G's Facebook page a while back when the reply came. (And people wonder why I generally don't bother contributing to Wookieepedia.) --NathanPButler (talk) 03:32, January 16, 2013 (UTC)

  • Hey, Nathan. I hope you understand that we need to treat "Someone e-mailed me and told me this" statements very cautiously, no matter who makes them. Whenever someone gets e-mail confirmation from an author, we usually ask that they provide a screenshot (taken with the author's permission) in order to obtain verifiable proof that we can display for everyone to see. Is there any chance you could ask Leland for permission to use a screenshot of the e-mail? It's not that we don't trust you, it's just that we don't want to open the door to anyone being able to use "Trust me, (insert VIP here) told me this" as a source for purported canonical info. Menkooroo (talk) 03:49, January 16, 2013 (UTC)
    • Oh, I know. That's why I just posted for those interested in what has been said. I asked at one point ages ago about screenshots, and that was something that wasn't in the cards. I wouldn't expect anyone to take my word for it, though I'm taking Leland's word as a primary source for the Star Wars Timeline Gold. Obviously, that's different for me than for Wookieepedia, given that it's not direct if I simply repeat what was direct to me. However, I do find what appeared to be inherent "snark" in the initial response to my post (not by you) to be rather ridiculous, given that the page for this book on Wookieepedia lists its date as 3,641 BBY, apparently based only on calculations above that fly in the face of not one, but two, direct sources on the subject: the Essential Reader's Compaion and Drew Karpyshyn's own public comments. So, direct information from published sources are solid sources . . . unless a Wookieepedian decides they don't like them, so they can just toss them out . . . whereas information passed along on what the official word is on the subject from the Keeper of the Holocron himself is met with derision and snark by (big shock!) the person who made those ERC/DK contradicting calculations to begin with. That's where my frustration lies: the double-standard. I'll take the Wook's concern with direct, cited sources more seriously when such a double-standard cannot be what drives an event's placement. --NathanPButler (talk) 04:09, January 16, 2013 (UTC)
      • If I may be so bold, I might suggest that you are exercising that same double-standard here yourself. To be clear: I understand what you're saying re: Chee/Karpyshyn vs. the math done above, and I am inclined to accept Annihilation at face value as 3640 BBY for the very same reasons that you've mentioned on this page. But in all balance here, you're talking about accepting the validity of authorial intent, without giving equal weight to the authors which have come before. We've already got documented sources on quite a number of already-published TOR metaseries titles, as well as statements from BioWare staff, all pointing to the game spanning 3643-41 BBY. I respect that you popped by to share this bit of private conversation with us, but as it stands, what we have to work with is an overwhelming amount of material, from various authors, all pointing to the generally accepted 3-year-span, vs. what is to us unconfirmed information from a private conversation. I don't understand how you can write a response decrying defying author intent, and in the same breath (keystroke) do the exact same thing. For what it's worth, I'm really hoping that I didn't also come across as snarky, I just felt the need to toss in my two cents on a comment which struck me as rather ironically hypocritical. And also FWIW, I also think it's unfortunate that that was the first response you had on this page; we like it when official folks pop in, and I'd hate to see a lone emotional comment put you off. My best. — DigiFluid(Whine here) 20:43, January 16, 2013 (UTC)\
        • I'm not referring to authorial intent, however. I'm simply passing along what is the official ruling on the subject, straight from the man who makes those calls. You can't use it due to my not being able to pass along the email, but to say that it is a double-standard to accept what LFL (who has final say) has decided on the subject, rather than information that is, by definition, trumped by that LFL decision, is ridiculous. Unfortunately, this is not the first (nor second, nor third, nor probably fourth) time that I've run into the idea that LFL's decisions are "wrong" if fans disagree, and what those who make the rulings decide to rule is "wrong" because fans came up with something different. The double standard is pretty simple: There are those in this community (no, not all), who have consistently basically said, "We need cited sources to use information," then turn right around and make stuff up as they go along. No matter how well-reasoned or well-founded, fan speculation is simply that, and only that. NathanPButler (talk) 22:37, January 16, 2013 (UTC)
        • And to clarify (an afterthought, so I'm glad I kept the page up), authorial intent (whether on behalf of a novel writer, game designer, or whomever) means absolutely nothing in terms of "fact" in Star Wars when there is an arbiter (Leland Chee, LFL, etc.) that has the authority to rule on contradictions, alter what facts are accepted to suit situations, etc. For instance, there were various contradictory sources with regard to the amount of time between ESB and ROTJ when we were dealing with film date issues for the Essential Chronology. Let's say a particular source says that it is one year, but then we look at another source that says it's four years after ANH, which is only 9 months after ESB, rather than 12. They can't both be true. Thus, LFL (often through Chee) will make a decision as to what the "truth" is in the situation, and that ruling stands, despite what that other source might have said, and no matter what that author's intention had been when referring to a full year gap. It frankly doesn't matter what Karpyshyn, the development team, or pretty much anyone else in the TOR creative side of things says on the issue. Once a decision is made on behalf of LFL itself, that's that. I'm certainly not saying to take the information without being able to source it, but that's not a double-standard or fan speculation: it's the reality of how this multimedia saga works. NathanPButler (talk) 22:49, January 16, 2013 (UTC)
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