Wookieepedia:Good article nominations/Battle of T'olan

The following discussion is preserved as an archive of a good article nomination that was unsuccessful. Please do not modify it.

Battle of T'olan

• Nominated by: NaruHina ^Talk 18:41, July 11, 2019 (UTC)
• Nomination comments: 8 years later, turns out there was more to say.

(0 ACs/1 Users/1 Total)

Support

1. Good work on the objections. QuiGonJinn ^(Talk) 06:35, July 18, 2019 (UTC)

Object

QGJ

• References are not allowed in the intro.
  • TFW out of practice, haha. Fixed. NaruHina ^Talk 17:30, July 12, 2019 (UTC)
• The fact that Obi-Wan was aware of the battle should be mentioned somewhere.
  • Added. NaruHina ^Talk 18:03, July 12, 2019 (UTC)
• Refs 2 and 7 need to be fully linked.
  • Done. NaruHina ^Talk 17:30, July 12, 2019 (UTC)
• Early in the war, perhaps within the first year or 21 BBY, This is speculative wording and should be reworded.
  • Removed the date reference there because of the revision to only c. 22 BBY. NaruHina ^Talk 18:03, July 12, 2019 (UTC)
• Ref 2: Relatively brief timespan relative to what? I would argue that three years of war is quite a lot of time. because of the war's relatively brief timespan
  • Removed. NaruHina ^Talk 18:03, July 12, 2019 (UTC)
• Honestly, following on the two above objections, I would just change the timeline placement of this battle to "around 22 BBY"
  • Done. NaruHina ^Talk 18:03, July 12, 2019 (UTC)
• Can any timeframe be provided for when she left? A woman left her homeworld of Bellassa to join the Republic Military
  • No. NaruHina ^Talk 17:30, July 12, 2019 (UTC)
    • You can still say that she left "shortly after the beginning of the war" or something along those lines. This would make the sentence and the entire section flow much more smoothly. QuiGonJinn ^(Talk) 08:40, July 15, 2019 (UTC)
• If the books state outright that she served in the Grand Army of the Republic, then this needs to be mentioned in the article accordingly.
  • I disagree here. Given other sources treatment of the Grand Army as exclusively clone troopers, it was a mistake and the BTS note should be sufficient. I was obviously being conservative by linking out only to the Essential Guide to Warfare, but I could probably go out and find others. NaruHina ^Talk 17:30, July 12, 2019 (UTC)
    • As I feel that we both have some valid points, I would like more input from other users, preferrably AC members, on this issue, before I strike this. I will ask around on IRC, and you are welcome to do the same if you'd like. QuiGonJinn ^(Talk) 08:40, July 15, 2019 (UTC)
      • I think Naru's right here. However, I'd like to see the BTS specify (properly sourced, of course) that clone troopers were exclusively male. Imperators II^(Talk) 14:27, July 15, 2019 (UTC)
        • Found a note in EGTW that they were exclusively male. Useful book, that. NaruHina ^Talk 20:36, July 15, 2019 (UTC)
          • There is a source that contradicts the fact that all clone troopers were clones of Jango, so this statement is not correct. X1 and X2 served in the GAR, but they were clones of Falon Grey, not Jango. Further, the troopers were all identical clones of the bounty hunter Jango Fett, QuiGonJinn ^(Talk) 08:34, July 16, 2019 (UTC)
            • Incorporated that. NaruHina ^Talk 01:06, July 17, 2019 (UTC)
              • Very nice, I like how you did that. QuiGonJinn ^(Talk) 06:33, July 18, 2019 (UTC)
• Related to the above objection. The explanation regarding the GAR in the Bts should cut down on speculation. Only the first two sentences are based on verifiable info, the rest is just speculation and should be cut. In The Desperate Mission, Trever Flume said that his mother fought in the Grand Army of the Republic. The Essential Guide to Warfare stated that only clone troopers served in the Grand Army. This did not mean that there were no non-clone forces fighting for the Republic, however. It's possible she was parts of different branches of the Republic Military, such as the Planetary Security Forces or the Judicials.
  • I removed the glaring double-negative, but I want to push back here on similar grounds to the above mention of the Grand Army. It was a mistake. It is not speculative to say that the Republic had separate non-clone forces, and it is not speculative to provide the reader with examples of such forces while talking about this unusual distinction. I have removed the "It's possible she was..." because I agree that toed the line, but I think the general examples of non-clone forces should stay. NaruHina ^Talk 18:03, July 12, 2019 (UTC)
• When did this occur? Can this be dated to 19 BBY as well and based on what evidence? On Bellassa, an Imperial bombing killed Trever Flume's father and brother
  • It can't, definitively. Putting it in proximity to 19 BBY should be sufficient because The Desperate Mission takes place in 18 BBY and that bombing was months earlier. NaruHina ^Talk 17:30, July 12, 2019 (UTC)
    • Actually, I thought of a better way to slip 18 BBY in there. How's that? NaruHina ^Talk 17:47, July 12, 2019 (UTC)
      • Much better. QuiGonJinn ^(Talk) 08:40, July 15, 2019 (UTC)
• If the lead quote is the only mention of T'olan in the book, then there is not enough info to identify it as a planet. Are there other mentions that can be used as a basis for this identification? If not, then T'olan should be treated as a general nondescript location.
  • The Wuun system is called the T'olan system in The Essential Atlas Online Companion's list of systems (and, allegedly, the book proper though I couldn't find it). IIRC that has been interpreted in the past as there being a planet with that name at that place, right? Would that be sufficient? NaruHina ^Talk 18:58, July 12, 2019 (UTC)
    • Not necessarily. Systems are not always named after planets, sometimes they are named after other celestial bodies or even artificial constructions. See Ardis system or Desolation Station system, for example. QuiGonJinn ^(Talk) 08:40, July 15, 2019 (UTC)
      • OK, generalized it to a "place." NaruHina ^Talk 15:04, July 17, 2019 (UTC)
• These two sentences need to be combined/reworded. They are way too simplistic. The battle was bloody. Trever Flume's mother died there.
  • Fixed by slipping the Obi-Wan Kenobi mention in there. NaruHina ^Talk 18:03, July 12, 2019 (UTC)
• Aftermath: Just calling Ferus Olin by name here would be better. he became deeply nervous when someone he cared about promised to return from danger without allowing him to come
  • The passage where he describes his feelings is more general than Ferus. I meant "someone" in the general sense. Perhaps "anyone" would be better? For reference, this is the passage: Ferus's expression clearly said not this again. But Trever didn't care. He wasn't going to be left behind. He'd been left behind before. By his mother, by his father, by his brother. Each time, they'd said It's too dangerous. You'll be safe here. NaruHina ^Talk 17:47, July 12, 2019 (UTC)
    • Still, I think a bit of context for Ferus and his relevancy here would be nice. Perhaps reword the quote caption to: "Trever Flume attempts to persuade Jedi Ferus Olin to take him on a mission." QuiGonJinn ^(Talk) 08:40, July 15, 2019 (UTC)
      • I'm down with that. I added a bit about the Jedi Temple during the Purge to convey why it was dangerous. NaruHina ^Talk 15:24, July 17, 2019 (UTC)
• Bts: Everything should be sourced.
  • Everything in there has the source in the sentence. Honest question: is leaving such things without redundant references not allowed anymore? NaruHina ^Talk 17:47, July 12, 2019 (UTC)
    • WP:S#Rule 5. Hi, Naru. Imperators II^(Talk) 17:50, July 12, 2019 (UTC)
      • Ahoy, matey! Added the refs. NaruHina ^Talk 18:14, July 12, 2019 (UTC)
• Bts: Release dates are needed for all the books mentioned here.
  • Done. NaruHina ^Talk 18:14, July 12, 2019 (UTC)
• I don't see how the passage in "Ghosts of the Sith" can be interpreted as an indirect mention of this individual. If we know that she died early in the Clone Wars, there's no way that "Imperials" could have killed her, since the Empire did not exist at the time yet. QuiGonJinn ^(Talk) 11:56, July 12, 2019 (UTC)
  • I (mostly) agree and included it out of an abundance of caution. Removed. NaruHina ^Talk 17:30, July 12, 2019 (UTC)

Anil

• If T'olan is located in the Mid Rim, Category:Battles in the Mid Rim should be added to the article.
  • Added. NaruHina ^Talk 04:33, July 14, 2019 (UTC)
    • I think I'd like to see the Mid Rim bit mentioned in the article too, rather than having it mentioned only in the categories. Anıl Şerifoğlu (talk) 15:46, July 14, 2019 (UTC)
      • Sure. NaruHina ^Talk 18:13, July 14, 2019 (UTC)
        • I don't think T'olan being a planet can be sourced to the Atlas Online Companion. Please revise. Anıl Şerifoğlu (talk) 20:29, July 14, 2019 (UTC)
          • OK, generalized it to a "place." NaruHina ^Talk 15:04, July 17, 2019 (UTC)
• Per the Layout Guide, when listing multiple items in a single infobox field, including cascading items, you should use bullets to offset each item, including the first item listed.
  • Added. NaruHina ^Talk 04:36, July 14, 2019 (UTC)
• "The New Essential Chronology states that the Clone Wars lasted from 22 BBY to 19 BBY. The Battle of T'olan was placed as 'early in the wars' by The Last of the Jedi: The Desperate Mission, which has been interpreted in this article as sometime within the first year." I think this is a pure speculation here. The battle may have taken place in 21 BBY, and still early in the war.
  • I initially had it as "sometime within 22 or 21 BBY," but changed it to 22 BBY due to QuiGonJinn's objection. The important thing is that its timeframe is connected to the start of the war, so c. 22 BBY should be fine. NaruHina ^Talk 04:28, July 14, 2019 (UTC)
• You don't need to link Trever Flume's mother twice in the infobox.
  • Fixed. NaruHina ^Talk 04:33, July 14, 2019 (UTC)
• "The death of Trever Flume's mother in the battle was referenced at various points in the series and in his The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia (2008) entry." I don't think this sentence in BTS is necessary at all. Anıl Şerifoğlu (talk) 03:26, July 14, 2019 (UTC)
  • Removed. NaruHina ^Talk 04:33, July 14, 2019 (UTC)
• As far as I can see, the battle of T'olan is not capitalized in The Last of the Jedi: The Desperate Mission. If you have no additional source that capitalizes it, this should be changed in the article.
  • You're right! Fixed. NaruHina ^Talk 17:58, July 22, 2019 (UTC)
    • Nice, I don't think adding this is necessary, though. "The name of the battle was not capitalized." Anıl Şerifoğlu (talk) 04:12, July 23, 2019 (UTC)
      • I think it's fine to document that in the article itself because somebody (~~me~~) already made the mistake of "fixing" it in the quote then the rest of the article. "The battle of T'olan is not capitalized" is not something that's going to survive future editing through word-of-mouth. NaruHina ^Talk 19:38, July 23, 2019 (UTC)
        • "The battle of T'olan took place…" I think the beginning of the intro makes perfectly clear that the article was not capitalized in any of the sources. Anyways, I believe that the Behind the scenes section is for a subject's origin, actor portrayal information, continuity issues etc., not for editor discretion. Anıl Şerifoğlu (talk) 12:39, July 24, 2019 (UTC)
          • Writing anything involves some discretion, inherently. I don't understand why a detail any one person finds extraneous should be automatically removed? I get that this place has a picky culture, but it's one sentence noting something we both know is out of the ordinary for Star Wars, mate. What's the actual problem? NaruHina ^Talk 17:14, July 25, 2019 (UTC)
• Could you please quote the indirect mentions of the battle from the novels here? I can't seem to find the mention in some of them.
  • Underworld: "He'd been left behind before. By his mother, by his father, by his brother. Each time, they'd said It's too dangerous. You'll be safe here. Each time they said I'll be back." [Here, the fact that they were wrong and died was the point]
  • Death on Naboo: "His mother, his father, and his brother had all fought the Empire. They had all been killed." [This is incorrect, as mentioned in the BTS]
  • A Tangled Web: "His mother, father, and brother had all died here." [This is incorrect, as mentioned in the BTS]
  • Secret Weapon: "Together with Ferus, he was the closest to family that Trever had known since his own family had died, every last one of them. Mother. Father. Brother."
  • Reckoning: "He had lost his entire family, and though he had become a street thief and a con, he had also become a hero. He just didn't know it yet."
    • The mother's death was the source of the indirect mentions. To be clear, this is not intended to be an exhaustive list of mentions of the mother's death in the books. It's just the first ones that popped up right now. In preparing this article, I was more thorough with searches of "mother," "father," "brother," "family," "Trever" (to an extent), "Flumes," etc. NaruHina ^Talk 20:31, July 17, 2019 (UTC)
      • I feel that considering them as indirect mentions of the Battle of T'olan is kinda stretch. I'd be fine if it was something like "the battle his mother died," or "after his mother's death on T'olan," but these quotes are just saying her mother is dead. Anıl Şerifoğlu (talk) 01:08, July 19, 2019 (UTC)
        • I also feel the same way about the CSWE entry. Anıl Şerifoğlu (talk) 01:10, July 19, 2019 (UTC)
          • If we were to talk about the event of Mace Windu's death, we would be talking about the Showdown at Coruscant even if we didn't mention specifics like Coruscant or the identity of his opponent. With the exception of Underworld, there are action words in all of these—"died," "killed," "lost"—that definitely move them away from saying "the mother is dead" to "when the mother died" by indicating the event of her death, i.e. the battle. In the case of Underworld, the event of her death is implied and should not be excluded just because of the author's stylistic choice, especially when the incident from there is one of the most concrete portions of the battle's aftermath. Open to opinions from others, but I would err on the side of retaining information. NaruHina ^Talk 00:10, July 20, 2019 (UTC)
            • I think that's the problem here. A simple mention as "the battle" would be considered as an indirect mention here. "Died," "killed," "lost," and all other words you are talking about feel like indirect mentions of an indirect mention, if you get what I mean. Anıl Şerifoğlu (talk) 02:55, July 20, 2019 (UTC)
              • I understand your position, but I doubt a reference could be too oblique for inclusion in the Appearance list. A reference of "the battle" would be a direct mention of the battle. In this case, we are dealing with references to an event of the battle, which is indirect. In the end, if it's there, then it's there, {{IMO}}. NaruHina ^Talk 03:15, July 20, 2019 (UTC)
• I think in ref [2], the sentence should end as " sometime around the first year" instead of "within." What do you think?
  • Fine. NaruHina ^Talk 20:31, July 17, 2019 (UTC)
• For ref [9], I think just saying that the book establishes all clone troopers of the Grand Army of the Republic were males should be enough, instead of quoting the relevant line from the book. Anıl Şerifoğlu (talk) 17:32, July 17, 2019 (UTC)
  • Cropped the quotation. NaruHina ^Talk 20:31, July 17, 2019 (UTC)

Vote to remove nomination (AC only)

1. Unaddressed objection by QuiGonJinn, over ten days old. Anıl Şerifoğlu (talk) 10:47, July 27, 2019 (UTC)
2. 1358 ^(Talk) 10:50, July 27, 2019 (UTC)
3. Ayrehead02 (talk) 11:01, July 27, 2019 (UTC)