Wookieepedia:Good article nominations/Saber of Darth Krall

The following discussion is preserved as an archive of a Good article nomination that was successful. Please do not modify it.

Saber of Darth Krall[]

Nominated by: —spookywilloww^talk 08:58, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
Nomination comments: ~~questioning my decision to post this at 5am aside,~~ the altname and frequency in consistency of depiction; it's just all Krall's saber. it was originally only said that he wielded one in the vision and thus a vision isn't usable as historical fact (in terms of the physical traits); but, now its been used other times and places as well, hence the expansion.
Date Archived: 13:36, 22 September 2024 (UTC)
Final word count: 657 words (132 introduction, 310 body, 215 behind the scenes)
Word count at nomination time: 628 words (126 introduction, 286 body, 216 behind the scenes)
WookieeProject (optional): WP:COMICS WP:THR

(3 ACs/2 Users/5 Total)

(Votes required: No additional votes required to pass, please consider reviewing another article.)

Support[]

Lewisr (talk) 22:11, 13 September 2024 (UTC)
Objections handled via Discord. Master Fredcerique(talk) (he/him) 05:51, 21 September 2024 (UTC)
CometSmudge (talk) 22:42, 21 September 2024 (UTC)
Zed42 ^(talk) 11:40, 22 September 2024 (UTC)
Booply (talk) 13:32, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

Object[]

Panther[]

~~Is there a reason the vision is not specified as being to Keeve in the appearances?~~
- Tucked in.—spookywilloww^talk 01:04, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

Objection

There seems to be a lot of info missing about Trennis's vision in the history. Namely, Trennis was having a vision of the Drengir's perspective, in which Krall fought and defeated the Drengir with the lightsaber on the Amaxine Station before trapping them. Panther436 (talk) 17:41, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
- Seems to be a holdover from what had been there for the years prior. Did expand on it a bit, though speaking from the general level of detail in weapon articles, I didn't really see the Drengir context as fitting organically in terms of being relevant to the saber itself.—spookywilloww^talk 01:04, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
  - Ok hear me out, but I really think the Drengir vs Krall stuff is more important as it's who he was using the saber on, and my idea would be to treat it like it actually happened. The vision depicts an event we know happened, in the right place, with the right means (the statues), the right context ("did you think you could defeat us?"), the right groups, and the right result, featuring someone we know exists, and we know that Keeve is actually connected to the Drengirs' minds and would be seeing their actual memories. The final vision panel even looks just like the canonical flashback panel of the trapping in issue 4. Enough to me to treat it as its own event until proven otherwise, maybe with a "based on a vision" qualifier if you want. I would write about Krall using the saber vs the Drengir at the top of the history and then give a very brief blurb on Keeve later on. Let me know your thoughts :) Panther436 (talk) 20:10, 1 August 2024 (UTC)
    - Do we have any other status article precedent for treating visions as fully canonical events? She is depicted as waking up from the vision (so, clearly a vision and not ambiguously one), and also not a hallucination. Given how frequently Star Wars depicts visions in storytelling and how often those events are not true, I'm strongly against treating any sort of vision as canonical historically; it only ever is a figment of imagination of whoever experienced it unless there is solid proof that it is not only in their head.—spookywilloww^talk 20:57, 1 August 2024 (UTC)
      - The difference is that the source of the vision is the Drengirs' minds. She is explicitly connected to their minds, able to see their thoughts and them able to see hers. The vision is later described as "telepathy" performed by the Drengir, further confirming this vision specifically was transmitted from them to her. It's not a traditional Force vision, she 'wakes up' because she was meditating but continues seeing things from the Drengirs' minds while conscious throughout the issue. The other difference is that the vision depicts a real event discussed in chapter 20 of Into the Dark. Trennis later recounts what she learned from the vision as fact on two occasions: "The ancient Sith. That's who trapped the Drengir on the Amaxine Station long ago before we freed them" & even more directly and specifically, "Long ago, the Sith froze you at the heart of their totems of darkness, cutting you off from the root-mind" which to me undeniably indicates it was real. Also what is depicted in the vision is the exact same as a canonical flashback to the capture from issue 4: three Drengir with a horde of hooded Sith facing them and the four huge statues towering over them, with everything in the same positions. It's deliberately meant to be the same thing. With all that in mind, all I'm suggesting here is having the article depict the event with a perspective qualifier, which the wiki does all the time. Say the event happened, then continue with the description of the lightsaber's use with something like "according to the Drengir" or "based on a vision, their capture included.." or "from the Drengir's perspective" etc. Panther436 (talk) 00:37, 4 August 2024 (UTC)
        The above proves exactly my point: that there has to be six to seven separate pieces of evidence circumstantially threaded together is absolutely synthetizing events under WP:OR ie "introduces an analysis or synthesis of published facts, opinions, or arguments..." The frame with those golden statues in it and Krall—nowhere is the lightsaber in that. I also did a decent amount of recent into whether Cavan said anything in the past: is there anything proving Krall didn't just destroy them with the Force, or any other weapon? Into the Dark never mentions Krall or specifically his lightsaber; I don't see why we should assume the specific artifact Saber of Darth Krall was used to defeat Drengir when even this comic doesn't show them being sliced through. There's a vision set in the station, he ignites it and duels with her, and by the time the statues appear, the saber is not in frame and it was un-ignited the frame prior. By requiring an unreliable narrator and their vision to be 100% canon, we're assuming the lightsaber a) reignited after it was extinguished the frame prior b) fought creatures it isn't shown slicing through or attacking c) canonically happened despite seeing the vision holder wake up hundreds of years later in an entirely different location (ie not direct psychometry d) Krall existed in the time of the Sith, in which there were many Sith. so in all of this, we'd need to be assuming Krall was those hooded, unidentified Sith—he could've very well fought them or nto at any other point in time or been a Sith out of frame. It's highly untraditional to automatically assume a hooded/cloaked figure is identified without author or them being unmasked in the same source definitively. The logic of this really falls apart in pieces since there is no proof Krall was there at any of the circumstantial events described (could or could not have been there, either then or at a different time), issue 7 does not show the Saber of Darth Krall cut through any Drengir, limbs or life-ending injury wise, and all it does shown before it extinguishes in the frame it falls on the ground is that he stabs her, then she wakes up. On top of that, there is no word from either Cavan nor any other current status article of ever considering a vision to be a canonical event.—spookywilloww^talk 01:12, 4 August 2024 (UTC)
        
        I think the thing you're missing is that Trennis represents a Drengir in that vision. That is explicit. He does use it against the Drengir as he stabs her with the saber. And it is all one scene...?? The dialogue is very clear that it's part of the capture. And Trennis's saber is what falls, not his, and he's wearing it in the panel after. I could argue the nitty gritty of this forever but it comes down to this: issue 7 depicts the saber being used against the Drengir (as Keeve) during their capture. That should be included in an article about the saber. Since you said you couldn't fit it naturally with the vision part, I suggested mentioning it earlier, as its own thing. Clearly you're against that idea, but either way it's included, the context of him using the lightsaber against the Drengir in the vision should be included. Panther436 (talk) 02:14, 4 August 2024 (UTC)
        To the contrary, I'm much willing to further argue this, even to putting it up to SH if need be. If there is a page number of Krall using his weapon to slice open the form/body of a Drengir in another comic that is not THR7, then sure, can concede that and go look into alternative sources not currently present on the article. THR7 has no frame of him cutting or attempting to hit a Drengir's body with this specific artifact. There's really no way around that, nor the fact that she wakes up, nor the fact that he's not named as one of the unnamed, cloaked with unidentified features-Sith in a time with a lot of Sith. I'd very much like a page number for where Krall does injure a Drengir with this artifact.—spookywilloww^talk 02:32, 4 August 2024 (UTC)
        Spooky I feel like I'm losing my mind here. We see him fighting and stabbing a Drengir on page 7. Keeve represents the Drengir. That is in the text. That is explicit. That is undeniable. It goes out of its way to emphasize it. It is the point of the scene. Please read the dialogue. Please look at the third panel on page 7 (the page that begins with "Did you think you could defeat us?). She is experiencing it from the Drengir's perspective. I don't know what else to say. Are you suggesting we don't include information or events from visions at all? Because that seems honestly ridiculous to me if the case. Panther436 (talk) 04:52, 4 August 2024 (UTC)
        
        Actually, this current revision already includes more detail of the vision than it was passed with in CA form. Originally, all it said was that Krall used a lightsaber and did not assume it to be the specific, singular artifact Saber of Darth Krall; this, is expanded from that to reflect that Keeve got confronted and then stabbed, and to very lightly duck test that it’s the same weapon rather than a random lightsaber due to the handle style matching. It’s said it’s explicit, but it’s not that she wakes up and goes to explain that the contents of her vision are canonical. Nor do any artbooks or interviews I’ve been able to find. And besides that, “explcit” by definition generally means blindingly clear and spelled out (like seeing Luke’s hand get cut off); explicit things don’t usually require long, fragile logic chains, of which by own admission, you said that several pieces of media were needed to line this up. That’s not to say that indirect logic can’t be used on Wook articles and it often is, but this is far from explicit; hell, the vision isn’t even captioned “long ago” or “the past” or “Drengir’s memories” or anything at all. Unless there’s other sources that define all of Keeve’s visions as actual events, and further that her interpretation of the choppy events she’s shown both aren’t missing anything and are interpreted correctly, from my side, I from the other point of view genuinely find it entirely coincidental original research strung along on many disjointed pieces of evidence from sources that—many of which—do not have Krall by name (ITD) or as a clear Imo distinct from the collective numerous Sith, nor do those mention this artifact, nor am I able to see a message above specify that the Drengir who was hurt long ago was specifically impacted by a lightsaber or any sort of plasma weapon at all. Sith like many can use lots of weapons; even just the Force itself. There’s 0 images of Krall using this specific artifact to stab a Drengir’s form; it’s resting on a pile of cards. If other comics in the THR run(s) otherwise specify later on, that’s a different story and I’d be interested to hear about it. And I’d assume you know this as well as I do: putting something at the top of History to document it as an event that happened is, essentially, declaring it as canonical in any way that matters. That takes it far out of using heavy qualifers to list what’s depicted as a vision within only the vision’s original timeframe/alongside it. But even with qualifiers (ie in a vision…), qualifiers can only be used to state what actually shows up. If this is truly such a clear plot point, some other source other than THR 7, even if not Keeve, surely should have some sort of character or caption state outright that these visions Jedi are getting are unaltered Drengir memories presented to the reader with hopefully limited interpretation bias coloring the events. If the vision showed a Drengir’s form getting stabbed; would be much less of an issue although still slightly one, but even then, we shouldn’t take any form of nightmare as true. If we took all visions, nightmares, dreams, or forced takeovers of minds with memories (some novels); then a lot of our articles would look vastly different today.—spookywilloww^talk 06:09, 4 August 2024 (UTC)
        
        No long chain of anything is needed to back up Keeve representing the Drengir in the vision! Krall refers to her as them multiple times! She speaks with the Drengir's special text bubble! She throws vines at him! It is depicting him fighting a Drengir by putting her in place of the Drengir. It is the point of the scene! And four posts ago I said you do not have to treat it as canon nor put it at the top of the history. It was just a simple non-binding suggestion I made earlier trying to help out since you said you couldn't figure out how to include it. So at this point it feels like you're deliberately ignoring everything I'm saying. Half of what you said in this last post is irrelevant to what I'm asking. And it feels like you haven't read the comic or are deliberately ignoring it because you are too smart to be genuinely dying on this hill. Reading and understanding a comic book is not original research. Again, all I'm saying is this: The vision depicts him using the saber against the Drengir (AS KEEVE. Again, she is taking on the role of the Drengir here). That should be included in an article about the saber. The context of the only time we ever see the saber used should be included in an article about the saber. You don't have to treat it as canon, just say what happened in the vison! That is not a big ask. It is not unreasonable. It is not even difficult. I am just genuinely baffled at what is going on here. I would be so frustrated if I wasn't so confused and so exhausted. Panther436 (talk) 23:02, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
        I think what's yet to be understood here is that I've yet to be provided with any source that outright states both: Keeve's body is 1:1 a Drengir itself (a curious prospect, as Drengir and human are both different in shape and size), or that, there's a source that makes it abundantly clear Krall uses this specific artifact and not the Force nor any other weapon/lightsaber to hurt the physical form of a Drengir, because it's terribly assumptuous to assume a Sith only uses one weapon to attack things. A lot of the logic threads above are interesting as theories for sure, but they're not flat out stating "My body was a Drengir in this vision, which is specifically set in the past and depicts something that happened"; she herself seems quite confused upon waking up as to what occurred, so I'm supposing she probably doesn't even know herself what precisely happened. There could've been a comic caption, dialogue, or other source stating Keeve's visions are true, such as "Long ago" or "Drengir's memories" or "In the past" "Years ago" as is often done for visions: hence the request for whether any other THR comics have it. One avenue would be if another source corroborates this out-of-vision, such as if Keeve later went and looked it up in the Jedi Archives or fought a Drengir in present-day, and the Drengir then confirmed her vision: doesn't seem to be the case. Another could be that Cavan, THR Character Encyclopedia, Chronicles, the art book, or any of the misc. others mention anything (checked, haven't seen anything). No statement from Cavan, no other source that supports the trans-ascending-body-fluidity claim needed to have occurredas described (ie as described referring to that visions are figments of imagination and therefore unreliable, and usually not to have the interpretation of them by the character be seen as foolproof) for other events to have occurred like the very rare case of Bestine. Nothing in ITD or other comics is appearing in CTRL+F for Krall, his lightsaber, or anything other than the "Sith" collectively, nor does the other one source's hooded Sith really visually identify any of them as indistinguishable as they are. That gold statue scene in THR 7 in which Krall stands next to Drengir but under the statues; no injured Drengir there, or evidence of severed limbs or puncture wounds (if there are small puncture wounds, I'd love for those to be pointed out), to the contrary, they look quite intact as Krall stands off to the side with his hand raised (so, not stabbing anything, though maybe he's harming them with the Force? no way for us to know). If this was truly so clear, one of the above (author, caption, reference work) should be providable, but seemingly no amount of arguing can make that proof appear. As above, more than happy for this to be forwarded to Senate Hall or to the ACs for the procedure for contested objections; I do have most of the media and blank CTRL+F searches snipped for sifting through the text-searchable media for this and a link list of the (several at this point) 2021-2022 interviews checked that don't mention Krall at all. To me, putting down information that isn't depicted from a visual source is an affront to the memory of Luca's SAs from DJL (he would've never wanted something that couldn't be seen; per below, he didn't even assume this was the same specific artifact cross-sources), which is quite honestly the only reason I'm restoring this at all as a favor to him. I just genuinely find it silly to source something to the artwork of a comic when it isn't present in said artwork & not otherwise in its dialogue/captions: it's a falsified source at its finest to say a panel has an event it doesn't. The originally passed version of this article wasn't at all willing to duck test this red lightsaber and the specific artifact of Saber of Darth Krall being the same weapon in the first place despite them looking the exact same, having the same owner, and coming from pieces of media all with the same author and it was only changed after another variant cover was used to further reinforce the duck test. I'm perfectly fine fighting for that it's always okay to not cite something to visual media if it isn't shown in said visual media, to keep Wook as assumption-free as possible. As for minimal tweaks, I guess it can be stated that the comic's current, modern day frame story events (her having the vision) took place during the time period of the Drengir crisis and that Keeve and the Jedi had been engaged in the fight against them by that year. It seems like a lot of fluff context for a weapon article, but at least it'd be accurate. It could also be stated that Krall re-holstered his lightsaber in the vision at some point after stabbing Keeve before she wakes up on Starlight Beacon, which at least is also firmly visually depicted if that's preferred, because it is, again, actually shown on his belt post-stabbing. But to be blunt, short of a proper SH or AC consensus, I don't see any grounds to add the phrase (or similar) "Krall stabbed/sliced at a Drengir" without an image or text description of his lightsaber shown…cutting through a Drengir, stabbing one, hurting one, slicing one, maiming one, vaguely aiming his lightsaber at one... or hell, even an injured Drengir's body sitting next to him instead of fully intact ones just vibing free-of-puncture-wounds next to him…seems extremely clear cut to me. Which again, is entirely and quickly solved if an image showing a Drengir's form with a lightsaber-inflicted injury even existing in the general(?) physical vicinity or page of Krall at this point; though to your point, I know enough of your intellect to know that if such an image existed of Krall and an injured Drengir's body on the same page, you'd have provided it by now if you knew of it, thus meaning it probably doesn't exist at present. We simply fundamentally disagree (which is fine and can escalate it to others' opinions); that said, if there are other tweaks regarding the events that are clearly shown: such as the initial ignition, adding that a screeching noise occurred when the Sith and Jedi's lightsabers hit, the reholstering, or that Keeve grunted when stabbed; those are things that would be fair game to add if requested.—spookywilloww^talk 00:52, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
      - Hoping in here, sorry to interrupt, to say we do have SA precendent for visions as full events: see Bestine IV citing Revelations since those events seen only in Revelations visions needed to have happened for later bounty hunters comics Editoronthewiki (talk) 02:17, 4 August 2024 (UTC)
        If that's the case, don't understand why you changed a Revelations SA from a also Revelations story to specifically be not taken as fact. That logic really doesn't go both ways, and if this is being forced through as canonical and if other Revelations comics are considered such, then I'm definitely looking into reverting Chibbier to it's prior state.—spookywilloww^talk 02:23, 4 August 2024 (UTC)
        Ah, two different things are happening here. Revelations 2022 is mostly about visions of the future, which all end up having to be true for Dark Droids and the like. Hence the Bestine edit. However, Revelations 2023 is unconnected short stories. The article you are referencing is about a character who lies all the time and is spinning a tall tale, in which they even alter details to be more dramatic: so, I did not edit that because its a vision, I edited it because its an unreliable narrator spinning a tale in which they are willing to alter details, leaving the truth of the whole thing up in the air Editoronthewiki (talk) 14:19, 4 August 2024 (UTC)
        
        Any amount of words can be used to explain it away but it’s still selective cherrypicking; not nor have ever been a fan. Also, the Bestine IV case brings up a lovely point: above, have repeatedly asked if any other source mentions or depicts Krall and his lightsaber interacting with a Drengir. Another source doing so would corroborate this vision as not figment of imagination to have actually happened. That hasn’t been provided, so I’m of the current assumption no such proof exists. If anyone does find a different source that would require this vision to have canonically happened in its present form, such as how Bestine’s vision is used for specific pieces of dialogue during an event we see happen within a different comic that isn’t set in a vision, then sure. But if out-of-vision requiring the Bestine event to have happened did not exist, highly doubt that would or should have been taken as canon either; I’m glad it was clarified so it could be due to firm not-vision corroboration, but it doesn’t mean this one has the same, since again, Krall isn’t identified nor clearly visually identified in the logic provided, much unlike the Bestine case.—spookywilloww^talk 14:58, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

Objection(s) overridden by AgriCorps 16:38, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

Comments[]

Approved as a Good article by AgriCorps 13:35, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

Vote to strike objection (AC only)[]

For Panther's, has been over a month and did send a talk page message a week ago to mention that a response would be needed but to no avail Lewisr (talk) 17:36, 11 September 2024 (UTC)
JediMasterMacaroni^(Talk) 07:07, 13 September 2024 (UTC)
OOM 224 (he/him/they) 16:38, 13 September 2024 (UTC)